”ICJ president’s statements unacceptable”

---”ICJ President’s statements unacceptable”


Talking about 'unacceptables': A lawyer practicing before a court should not criticize them out of that court.

---“There is a different between a decision and opinion. Decisions must be clear. For example, when the court was asked whether it had jurisdiction over the Croatian case against Serbia for genocide, ten judges said ‘yes’ and seven said ‘no,’ therefore the decision of the court was ‘yes.’"

Well, in that case they voted to let the case continue, in Kosova case this is a dead end, no more cases or appeals. Plus, Serbia has said they will not listen to the judges if they rule against Serbia.

whats the problem here?serbia got the anwser about kosovo on 17/02/2008.where jeremic goin to complain next?maybe the jugdes from X FACTOR

Who cares what Tibor Varadi has to say?
I find Tibor Varadi unacceptable.

It was Serbia who asked the ICJ to give it's advisory opinion on Kosovo's declaration of independence and therefore the ICJ should give its "advisory opinion".

Maybe it is the plan of the President of the ICJ to deliberately sabotage the ICJ in this case so that even though it is competent to rule on such a decision, it will be seen as fatally compromised and unable to provide an impartial an unbiased decision, and hence disqualifying itself effectively from making a ruling.

Like I wrote before, the ICJ doesn't want blood on its hands by giving a decision that could well have the global consequences that President Wilson's 'right to self-determination' had, regardless of whether the West and Russia now unofficially agree that unilateral recognitions stop with Kosovo and S. Ossetia.

The fuse will be lit. Kaboom!

"Next round, the autonomous province of Mitrovica within Kosova's boundaries." (miri)

- Are you still on this? Give it up! I know this irks you, but a neutral ruling means status quo. Try solving rampant unemployment and economic deteroration before you decide to play more war games with armies you don't control. Seriously. No Mitrovica, and no swapping for Presevo. Both sides keep what they currently control. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A neutral ruling means neutral status. It does NOT equate into the victory many Albanians here seem to think it will produce.

Interesting that Africa came up here, especially since "Kosova" enjoys very little support in Africa. For example, Nigeria has reiterated its support for Serbia just recently.

If "Kosova's" UDI really were about self-determination and the high ideals many Kalbs ostensibly support, wouldn't there be many recognitions in Africa, of all places? Wouldn't Africans be most sympathetic to such a cause? Of course Africans would be most sympathetic to the cause of self-determination. But "Kosova" is not about self-determination. It is about a gang of thugs stealing territory from a member of the United Nations. And that's why the Kalbs enjoy so little support in Africa.

The "fuss" is that no definite decision ruins both the K-albo pretenders and Boris Tadic. Kosovo remains poor and in limbo (and, soon, in the dark since nobody wants to invest in building a new power plant there). Kosovo is at the same level as the Palestinian "state" and can easily remain there for the next 42 years (like Palestine since 1967). The us can tolerate that, but the eu will soon lose its patience and force new negotiations. The Serbian people would lose patience with Tadic and Jeremic, kick them out of power and welcome Radical rule. The Radicals would provoke the secession of the RS and north Kosovo and tear up the military agreement with HATO. These events play into Russian hands so it is no coincidence that this story came from a Russian interview. This is what the albo posters to this site cannot understand: it's not about you - who cares about you? It's us/eu versus Russia/China. The foreign policy of the us has reached a "tipping point". The Russians, Chinese, and everyone else with a grudge against the us are playfully competing with each other to see who is the one who tips the us into losing its credibility, influence, and power around the world. Who will be the winner that threw those yankees back over the oceans. In spite of what that politician said, the ICJ will deliver a definite answer.

In other words, both sides' over inflated sense of themselves will be popped. Each side is expecting a decisive win, but reaffirming the status quo means both sides take nominal victories along with political and administrative castration, necessitating EULEX's indefinite presence in what will probably evolve into (if it isn't already) an international mandate.

Whatever Court's Opinion is it is not obligatory for the parties. Serbia has already said that will never accept Kosova's independence directly or inderctly. Of course there will be No Reuturn to Serbia. So what is the fuss about? The Court's Opinion was requested from Serbia just to gain some valuable time to stop further recognitions of Kosova's independence. Serbia hasn't done bad on that. Jeremic is going to Africa to stop the unstoppable. Is he bothered? Of course not. Serbia's taxpayer pay for his trip. Nice to visit some exotic places in Africa though))

# Whatever Court's Opinion is it is not obligatory for the parties. Serbia has already said that will never accept Kosova's independence directly or inderctly. Of course there will be No Reuturn to Serbia. So what is the fuss about? The Court's Opinion was requested from Serbia just to gain some valuable time to stop further recognitions of Kosova's independence. Serbia hasn't done bad on that. Jeremic is going to Africa to stop the unstoppable. Is he bothered? Of course not. Serbia's taxpayer pay for his trip. Nice to visit some exotic places in Africa though))
(EA, 21 November 2009 16:40)


Thank you, EA, it is the big drama of the day, and then will be forgotten the day after. nevertheless, it has been a bump in the road for recognitions, which will continue to come in one way or another. and it allows us an intl stage to present our case. next step: a demand for reparations. and much, much more.

until there is the political will to change it, the blgd regime will continue to destabilize the region, and help make the lives of regular people miserable. when talks begin between countries, on an equal footing, then suddenly we will see progress and movement.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

Apparently, as we have discussed before a "neutral/ambiguous" decision is in Serbia's loss. Serbia's bluff was called. Kosova wins this round! Next round, the autonomous province of Mitrovica within Kosova's boundaries

Kosovo is where Serbia was born, and reborn.

A neutral ruling means neutral status. It does NOT equate into the victory many Albanians here seem to think it will produce.
(Mike, 21 November 2009 17:57)

A neutral ruling will mean that: "The Int. Law has NOT been breached!!" Why don't you and the others ask yourself this question. What is the purpose of Int. Law? Well, it is to preserve the peace and stability. Right now these two parameters are secured in the Ballkans only by securing K-Independence. Int. Law will have to adapt and adopt itself to the facts on the ground, otherwise will not be capable to play the role it is designed for. This is the perspective of all those parties that currently back K-Independence, which happen to be those countries that "invented", if you will, the International Law. Now, the facts on the ground are also that Serbia control the Northern Part of Kosova but for the countries mentioned above, this is part of the newly created state. In order for Serbia to publicly and globally claim the northern tip as as its own, it will need: First: to recognize Kosova as an equal state with which will: Second, enter in negotiations to resolve the status of North Mitrovica. It is laughable to think that there is really a Serb politician that believes that entire Kosova could go under Serb ruling again. I can't predict what will happen during those negotiations but on thing is for sure that Presevo Valley will be brought up. Serbia knows this and that's why Serb politicans are at complete loss in here. They have no idea how to handle this, that's why the try to prolong as much as they can. As usual, longer they wait, more countries will recognize Kosova within its boundaries and more difficult will be for Serbia to play the card of partition. This is not a threat as you like to interpret it, Kosova doesn't have the power to make any military threats but it has the ability to drive Serb politics crazy thanks to the total lack of any pragmatism in Belgrade.

I read many comments how Kosovo is isolated,poor and even comparing with palestine,I think is more the opossite we are more like israel even though I pleadge deeply with palestian people.
some said we will be in the dark,hungry..etc.
this people dont know what it means to be free,meaning of freedom,we tased once and we are ready to vanish from this world if we have to and not letting the grip of freedom slip away with any cost.So be it,now you now that ICJ cant change anything for Kosovo or Serbia,it is a destiny to be free.

@JohnnyBoy - spot on.

aRTa said:

---”ICJ President’s statements unacceptable”


"Talking about 'unacceptables': A lawyer practicing before a court should not criticize them out of that court."

And a judge should not be disclosing the verdict before they even started with the case.

The question was very precise.
"Was it legal for Kosovo to declare UDI?"
A precise question like this has no room for ambiguity. It requeires a precise answer.

Well, I think African States have many things to worry about...before considering Kosovo case...I'd say, for instance, stopping hundreds of internal wars, finding something to eat and to drink for dinner....

And to those who try to build schemes under which China + Russia oppose the US+EU...forget it
China isn't so naive to try to crush a one billion market of rich consumers (EU+US)...they need them...Chinese don't care about Russia....they know they can wipe them out like a tiny spider...
EU+US have everything to offer (High value know-how in all areas, purchase power, big market) while Russia has only its gas...along with tens of middle esat countries.

well, don´t worry, my friends...

there are some questions, that should not be forgotten:

is this Mr.Owada going to be the pres of the ICJ when the ruling will be published?

is he (perhaps) doing what he´s being paid for?

don´t make the mistake to believe that this isolated remark has anything to do with the actual process of the mentioned case.

perhaps the real aim is just to influence some little puppy-countries in order to give in to us-american pressure in regard to the "recognition"-farce?

we will see...

I am quite confident, since the law is on Serbia´s side.

let´s just see what future brings! =)

'The question was very precise.
"Was it legal for Kosovo to declare UDI?"
A precise question like this has no room for ambiguity. It requeires a precise answer.
(Peggy, 22 November 2009 00:22)'

"A precise answer"? In your dreams. The opinion may have to offer a few words on what the General Assembly can expect when it (not Serbia) requests an advisory opinion, but maybe the judges won't even bother with that, assuming that lawyers understand what politicians refuse to explain to their people.

"International law" - as I thought was made clear by the modestly nicknamed "VaguelyInformed" - is not simply a list of legal and illegal actions, but an evolving body of concepts and their interrelations. And as for opinions, VI says "You end up with a fairly long but by no means unreadable decision, which tends to be very nuanced and full of a mixture of findings of fact, legal principles that are applied, notes of caution sounded when a particular topic seems to fall outside the court's remit, and very often rather than simply concluding "X is legal/illegal", listing of factors and circumstances which might affect the legality of X.' There's clearly plenty of room for ambiguity.

The Court can offer either a very narrowly drawn opinion, based on the specifics of this particular case (offering little hope to other liberation movements) or a broad finding weighing the competing concepts of territorial integrity and self-determination. I'd guess they'd go for the former, safer option, but trying to predict any court's decision is generally a waste of time.

Amer, whatever makes you comfortable.

This is a matter of law and nothing else. There is only one question asked and we all know what it is by now, so going of in different directions is all fine as long as the answer is yes or no at the end of it all.

Don't you understand that a court cannot give a maybe as an answer to a precise question? They are there to interpret the law not to shrug their shoulders and say "gee i really don't know how to answer that one".

'Of course Africans would be most sympathetic to the cause of self-determination.'

Africans are a lot more worried about borders than self-determination. The colonial powers drew borders without any regard for what tribes they forced together or which tribes they split up, but when the countries became independent they all agreed to keep those borders, as senseless as they were, simply to avoid the warfare that would have ensued if some countries tried to change them.

Dear All Ballkanians,
What ever the opinion of ICJ will be, if does not fit to serbians they will say there is no justice and if the opinion will not fit to albanains they will say there is no justice...
Do we really think (we ballkanians) that we are right all the time? Do we really accept any time the reality in the ground? I simply think that the problem is with us, with ballcan mentality!!!
What ever the opinion of ICJ will be, will not help ballkan countries to be more civilized, educated, welfared!!!
Kosovo got the independence, not because for albanians was just a wish, but because of what the serbian regime did to Kosovo albanians. Simply the serbian regime did not respected the national law and in the mean time was asking to be respected the international law. This was a non sense, therefore Kosovo got independence and here we are!
Peace to ALL!!!

O yes.... sir you like it or not but that is the TRUTH........

"Don't you understand that a court cannot give a maybe as an answer to a precise question?"

Why don't you explain this to the President of the ICJ, then? He thinks differently.

What's wrong with people? Seriba asked for an Adversary Opinion. This can be Neutral!!! its just an optionion, give me two options and if i can't decide am i forced to pick no? or yes? which one?

Kosovar

What exactly are you free of my friend can't you see Serbia is on its way to EU, what did Kosovo UDI bring to its people except prolonging its way to EU, this way is going to take a long long time for Kosovo to join if it ever will and the blue/yellow flag is not nearly enough.

Who cares what Tibor Varadi has to say?
I find Tibor Varadi unacceptable.

It was Serbia who asked the ICJ to give it's advisory opinion on Kosovo's declaration of independence and therefore the ICJ should give its "advisory opinion".

# Whatever Court's Opinion is it is not obligatory for the parties. Serbia has already said that will never accept Kosova's independence directly or inderctly. Of course there will be No Reuturn to Serbia. So what is the fuss about? The Court's Opinion was requested from Serbia just to gain some valuable time to stop further recognitions of Kosova's independence. Serbia hasn't done bad on that. Jeremic is going to Africa to stop the unstoppable. Is he bothered? Of course not. Serbia's taxpayer pay for his trip. Nice to visit some exotic places in Africa though))
(EA, 21 November 2009 16:40)


Thank you, EA, it is the big drama of the day, and then will be forgotten the day after. nevertheless, it has been a bump in the road for recognitions, which will continue to come in one way or another. and it allows us an intl stage to present our case. next step: a demand for reparations. and much, much more.

until there is the political will to change it, the blgd regime will continue to destabilize the region, and help make the lives of regular people miserable. when talks begin between countries, on an equal footing, then suddenly we will see progress and movement.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

whats the problem here?serbia got the anwser about kosovo on 17/02/2008.where jeremic goin to complain next?maybe the jugdes from X FACTOR

Apparently, as we have discussed before a "neutral/ambiguous" decision is in Serbia's loss. Serbia's bluff was called. Kosova wins this round! Next round, the autonomous province of Mitrovica within Kosova's boundaries

---”ICJ President’s statements unacceptable”


Talking about 'unacceptables': A lawyer practicing before a court should not criticize them out of that court.

---“There is a different between a decision and opinion. Decisions must be clear. For example, when the court was asked whether it had jurisdiction over the Croatian case against Serbia for genocide, ten judges said ‘yes’ and seven said ‘no,’ therefore the decision of the court was ‘yes.’"

Well, in that case they voted to let the case continue, in Kosova case this is a dead end, no more cases or appeals. Plus, Serbia has said they will not listen to the judges if they rule against Serbia.

Whatever Court's Opinion is it is not obligatory for the parties. Serbia has already said that will never accept Kosova's independence directly or inderctly. Of course there will be No Reuturn to Serbia. So what is the fuss about? The Court's Opinion was requested from Serbia just to gain some valuable time to stop further recognitions of Kosova's independence. Serbia hasn't done bad on that. Jeremic is going to Africa to stop the unstoppable. Is he bothered? Of course not. Serbia's taxpayer pay for his trip. Nice to visit some exotic places in Africa though))

"Next round, the autonomous province of Mitrovica within Kosova's boundaries." (miri)

- Are you still on this? Give it up! I know this irks you, but a neutral ruling means status quo. Try solving rampant unemployment and economic deteroration before you decide to play more war games with armies you don't control. Seriously. No Mitrovica, and no swapping for Presevo. Both sides keep what they currently control. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A neutral ruling means neutral status. It does NOT equate into the victory many Albanians here seem to think it will produce.

In other words, both sides' over inflated sense of themselves will be popped. Each side is expecting a decisive win, but reaffirming the status quo means both sides take nominal victories along with political and administrative castration, necessitating EULEX's indefinite presence in what will probably evolve into (if it isn't already) an international mandate.

Maybe it is the plan of the President of the ICJ to deliberately sabotage the ICJ in this case so that even though it is competent to rule on such a decision, it will be seen as fatally compromised and unable to provide an impartial an unbiased decision, and hence disqualifying itself effectively from making a ruling.

Like I wrote before, the ICJ doesn't want blood on its hands by giving a decision that could well have the global consequences that President Wilson's 'right to self-determination' had, regardless of whether the West and Russia now unofficially agree that unilateral recognitions stop with Kosovo and S. Ossetia.

The fuse will be lit. Kaboom!

Well, I think African States have many things to worry about...before considering Kosovo case...I'd say, for instance, stopping hundreds of internal wars, finding something to eat and to drink for dinner....

And to those who try to build schemes under which China + Russia oppose the US+EU...forget it
China isn't so naive to try to crush a one billion market of rich consumers (EU+US)...they need them...Chinese don't care about Russia....they know they can wipe them out like a tiny spider...
EU+US have everything to offer (High value know-how in all areas, purchase power, big market) while Russia has only its gas...along with tens of middle esat countries.

The "fuss" is that no definite decision ruins both the K-albo pretenders and Boris Tadic. Kosovo remains poor and in limbo (and, soon, in the dark since nobody wants to invest in building a new power plant there). Kosovo is at the same level as the Palestinian "state" and can easily remain there for the next 42 years (like Palestine since 1967). The us can tolerate that, but the eu will soon lose its patience and force new negotiations. The Serbian people would lose patience with Tadic and Jeremic, kick them out of power and welcome Radical rule. The Radicals would provoke the secession of the RS and north Kosovo and tear up the military agreement with HATO. These events play into Russian hands so it is no coincidence that this story came from a Russian interview. This is what the albo posters to this site cannot understand: it's not about you - who cares about you? It's us/eu versus Russia/China. The foreign policy of the us has reached a "tipping point". The Russians, Chinese, and everyone else with a grudge against the us are playfully competing with each other to see who is the one who tips the us into losing its credibility, influence, and power around the world. Who will be the winner that threw those yankees back over the oceans. In spite of what that politician said, the ICJ will deliver a definite answer.

Interesting that Africa came up here, especially since "Kosova" enjoys very little support in Africa. For example, Nigeria has reiterated its support for Serbia just recently.

If "Kosova's" UDI really were about self-determination and the high ideals many Kalbs ostensibly support, wouldn't there be many recognitions in Africa, of all places? Wouldn't Africans be most sympathetic to such a cause? Of course Africans would be most sympathetic to the cause of self-determination. But "Kosova" is not about self-determination. It is about a gang of thugs stealing territory from a member of the United Nations. And that's why the Kalbs enjoy so little support in Africa.

Kosovo is where Serbia was born, and reborn.

A neutral ruling means neutral status. It does NOT equate into the victory many Albanians here seem to think it will produce.
(Mike, 21 November 2009 17:57)

A neutral ruling will mean that: "The Int. Law has NOT been breached!!" Why don't you and the others ask yourself this question. What is the purpose of Int. Law? Well, it is to preserve the peace and stability. Right now these two parameters are secured in the Ballkans only by securing K-Independence. Int. Law will have to adapt and adopt itself to the facts on the ground, otherwise will not be capable to play the role it is designed for. This is the perspective of all those parties that currently back K-Independence, which happen to be those countries that "invented", if you will, the International Law. Now, the facts on the ground are also that Serbia control the Northern Part of Kosova but for the countries mentioned above, this is part of the newly created state. In order for Serbia to publicly and globally claim the northern tip as as its own, it will need: First: to recognize Kosova as an equal state with which will: Second, enter in negotiations to resolve the status of North Mitrovica. It is laughable to think that there is really a Serb politician that believes that entire Kosova could go under Serb ruling again. I can't predict what will happen during those negotiations but on thing is for sure that Presevo Valley will be brought up. Serbia knows this and that's why Serb politicans are at complete loss in here. They have no idea how to handle this, that's why the try to prolong as much as they can. As usual, longer they wait, more countries will recognize Kosova within its boundaries and more difficult will be for Serbia to play the card of partition. This is not a threat as you like to interpret it, Kosova doesn't have the power to make any military threats but it has the ability to drive Serb politics crazy thanks to the total lack of any pragmatism in Belgrade.

well, don´t worry, my friends...

there are some questions, that should not be forgotten:

is this Mr.Owada going to be the pres of the ICJ when the ruling will be published?

is he (perhaps) doing what he´s being paid for?

don´t make the mistake to believe that this isolated remark has anything to do with the actual process of the mentioned case.

perhaps the real aim is just to influence some little puppy-countries in order to give in to us-american pressure in regard to the "recognition"-farce?

we will see...

I am quite confident, since the law is on Serbia´s side.

let´s just see what future brings! =)

aRTa said:

---”ICJ President’s statements unacceptable”


"Talking about 'unacceptables': A lawyer practicing before a court should not criticize them out of that court."

And a judge should not be disclosing the verdict before they even started with the case.

The question was very precise.
"Was it legal for Kosovo to declare UDI?"
A precise question like this has no room for ambiguity. It requeires a precise answer.

I read many comments how Kosovo is isolated,poor and even comparing with palestine,I think is more the opossite we are more like israel even though I pleadge deeply with palestian people.
some said we will be in the dark,hungry..etc.
this people dont know what it means to be free,meaning of freedom,we tased once and we are ready to vanish from this world if we have to and not letting the grip of freedom slip away with any cost.So be it,now you now that ICJ cant change anything for Kosovo or Serbia,it is a destiny to be free.

Amer, whatever makes you comfortable.

This is a matter of law and nothing else. There is only one question asked and we all know what it is by now, so going of in different directions is all fine as long as the answer is yes or no at the end of it all.

Don't you understand that a court cannot give a maybe as an answer to a precise question? They are there to interpret the law not to shrug their shoulders and say "gee i really don't know how to answer that one".

'The question was very precise.
"Was it legal for Kosovo to declare UDI?"
A precise question like this has no room for ambiguity. It requeires a precise answer.
(Peggy, 22 November 2009 00:22)'

"A precise answer"? In your dreams. The opinion may have to offer a few words on what the General Assembly can expect when it (not Serbia) requests an advisory opinion, but maybe the judges won't even bother with that, assuming that lawyers understand what politicians refuse to explain to their people.

"International law" - as I thought was made clear by the modestly nicknamed "VaguelyInformed" - is not simply a list of legal and illegal actions, but an evolving body of concepts and their interrelations. And as for opinions, VI says "You end up with a fairly long but by no means unreadable decision, which tends to be very nuanced and full of a mixture of findings of fact, legal principles that are applied, notes of caution sounded when a particular topic seems to fall outside the court's remit, and very often rather than simply concluding "X is legal/illegal", listing of factors and circumstances which might affect the legality of X.' There's clearly plenty of room for ambiguity.

The Court can offer either a very narrowly drawn opinion, based on the specifics of this particular case (offering little hope to other liberation movements) or a broad finding weighing the competing concepts of territorial integrity and self-determination. I'd guess they'd go for the former, safer option, but trying to predict any court's decision is generally a waste of time.

Dear All Ballkanians,
What ever the opinion of ICJ will be, if does not fit to serbians they will say there is no justice and if the opinion will not fit to albanains they will say there is no justice...
Do we really think (we ballkanians) that we are right all the time? Do we really accept any time the reality in the ground? I simply think that the problem is with us, with ballcan mentality!!!
What ever the opinion of ICJ will be, will not help ballkan countries to be more civilized, educated, welfared!!!
Kosovo got the independence, not because for albanians was just a wish, but because of what the serbian regime did to Kosovo albanians. Simply the serbian regime did not respected the national law and in the mean time was asking to be respected the international law. This was a non sense, therefore Kosovo got independence and here we are!
Peace to ALL!!!

@JohnnyBoy - spot on.

'Of course Africans would be most sympathetic to the cause of self-determination.'

Africans are a lot more worried about borders than self-determination. The colonial powers drew borders without any regard for what tribes they forced together or which tribes they split up, but when the countries became independent they all agreed to keep those borders, as senseless as they were, simply to avoid the warfare that would have ensued if some countries tried to change them.

"Don't you understand that a court cannot give a maybe as an answer to a precise question?"

Why don't you explain this to the President of the ICJ, then? He thinks differently.

Kosovar

What exactly are you free of my friend can't you see Serbia is on its way to EU, what did Kosovo UDI bring to its people except prolonging its way to EU, this way is going to take a long long time for Kosovo to join if it ever will and the blue/yellow flag is not nearly enough.

O yes.... sir you like it or not but that is the TRUTH........

What's wrong with people? Seriba asked for an Adversary Opinion. This can be Neutral!!! its just an optionion, give me two options and if i can't decide am i forced to pick no? or yes? which one?