Skopje: Name negotiations continue

The Republic of Macedonia will remain actively involved in the dialogue led under the patronage of the UN,” said the foreign minister

B92

There isn't any dialog to be involved with mr milososki.What we have is the same entrenched fyromian positions that we had for the last 18 years.

What Gruevski and the rest of the fyromian nationalist mandra have been advocating for the last 5 years are the fascist jingoistic positions of the fyromian diaspora and he has done everything in his power to create the illusionary connection with antiguity thus negating their slavic heritage.

If Gruevski wants to be connected with the ancient Greeks i have no objection but when he leaves office he shouldn't rush to the Bulgarian embassy,like other ministers and more than 100000 of his compatriots have done,with his grandparents documents to support his application for a Bulgarian passport.

It suffices to say that Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov called Bulgaria and Fyrom as sister nations.No wonder why Bulgaria doen't recognise the Fyromian language as anything else but Bulgarian.

hazel,

You are not well informed about the Lisbon treaty. According to the treaty every Eu country keeps right to veto for reasons of national interest and this is one.
We will veto again as we did for NATO, be sure about that and stop dreaming. And Hazel think of this..our FYROMIAN friends would not bother to negotiate if they could simply avoid us and enter Eu without our consent. You must come to reality like the rest of us and realize that another veto is coming soon if an acceptable solution for both sides is not found til then.

I am just tired of your ultra-Greek nationalism you spew on this website. You keep getting on Macedonians for not wanting to be Bulgarians which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How would you like to be called a Turk? We Macedonians are different from the Bulgarians. PERIOD! Can we be serious why you Greeks live on these forum sites? It's your obsession to deny that Macedonian-Slavs ever existed in Greece! Just stop it! We are Macedonians and will call ourselves what ever we want. The name thing is all you Greeks have since your economy is tanking. Obviously the peasants need to focus on a feel-ggod story...
(Toni, 17 November 2009

The truth hurts tony doesn't it?My attempts to expose your ficticious glorious past doesn't make me an ultra-nationalist.Iam here to do justice not only to history but also to all Greek soldiers who lost their lives in the balkan wars fighting for makedonia the real one, the Greek one.

Iam not denying that Slavs existed in Greece but it's Skopje's propaganda which tries to link those Slavs with Greek history that bothers me and my fellow Greeks.

If our economy is tanking why then the thousands of your impoverished compatriots que outside the Greek consular office to get visas to come and work in Greece?Unemployment rate of 40% in Fyrom-the economy is booming!

As to your rant about peasants you're obviously refering to your compatriots where 65% are still employed in agriculture.

If you bothered to look at European statistics you'll see that Greece is one of the countries with the highest number of university graduates in Europe.

Face it, you know that the more Westerners learn about what really happened in the Greek Civil War (yeah, using napalm on women and children was really classy) your side will be more scrutinized. That's why the Turks are using the Macedonians against you and you guys are trying to use the Serbs against us. What all of us need to look at is the Albanain issue, but what do I know, you guys have that all under control...phewh
(Toni, 17 November 2009 20:29)

It's your compatriots that took arms against Greece in the civil war not to mention your collusion with nazi germany in the second world war.

It's Skopje which recognised
Kosovo and not Greece.It is you that must look at the Albanian issue.

Gruevski came to Bulgaria to ask for support because he knows that no matter how many stupidities he and his countrymen do Bulgaria is bound to be forgiving. Imagine you have a brother who was kidnapped. For a long period of time kept in a dungeon. Then they put him in a nice hotel, spoiled with good food and fancy cloths. Finally he goes free. You rejoy. Your brother is finallyfree. But he comes to you and sais: I am not your brother. "I am a great grandson of Alexander the Great". What will you do? You will shake your head, but if he gets in trouble you will still try to help him.

Many of us enjoy more Serbian things (and in my case) and have connections/ancestry in Serbia.

That is exactly the truth. Modern Macedonians are a product of separation of part of the Bulgarian nation and its integration within the Yugoslavian subculture. It is sad that the process inbread strong resentment of the traditional Bulgarian culture in Macedonia. This creates a big probem - the animosity between Serbs and Bulgarians. It also created today's problem with Greece. Because the theory of Slav Macedonians as a long existing separate people does not hold water. When the Slavs arrived in the region it was not called Macedonia (the name was used for the region around Constantinopol) History clearly shows that the Slavs and the ProtoBulgarians aculturated into a Slav speaking peolpe, the Macedonian Bulgarians started to accept the neme Macedonci as a regional name in the 19 th century and as a national in the 20th. The attempt to prove a lasting separatness could lead only to the claim of ancient Macedonian anssestory.

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.
(hazel, 17 November 2009 16:05)

The Americans tried their best last year at Bucharest and they got the Greek answer.

As far as the EU is concerned the Americans haven't got any saying at all. Lat April when Obama asked the EU to include Turkey in its enlargement, the French and the germans told him to mind his own bloody business.

As far as fyrom is concerned,there won't be any invitation to start negotiations and they will be pushed back for the next enlargement sometime in the very distant future together with the Albanians-if the Albanians are allowed ever to join.

My fellow Fyromian friends,
Stop accusing us as ultra nationalists since no country in the world would allow some other country to be named as one of its provinces. Same did France with Great Britain, so GB had to change her name to UK. FYROM is not in possession of all of Macedonia land so is not entitled to use the name, actually no one can claim that name (as name of the state) because this implies territorial claims on neighboring countries. Another thing is that FYROMians claim they are no threat to us because they are small sized country, but Greece, Serbia and Montenegro were also small in comparison with Ottoman Empire and then all became larger and the Ottoman empire became smaller. I dont feel threatened now by FYROM, but who knows what will happen after 30,40 or 50 years?
So lets all go back to the negotiating table and you guys stop blaming Greece for your own choices, because since Greece has retreated from its original position your government became even more unwilling to discuss. The problem with FYROM is that they think they can just impose a solution to a bigger country. well guys after 18 years still nothing so better realize that the solution comes only through the negotiating table.
I agree that Albanians are the main problem in the region, so we all should concentrate on this.

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.
(hazel, 17 November 2009 16:05)

NATO and Lisbon treaty.???????
Otherwise a €USSR outlined by Lisbon trety will soon fail.As opposed to albanians European people do not like to be governed by criminals.Expect series of civil protests.

hmm

To the aggressive little Greek posters on this Forum, if you can answer the following questions, I will agree that Macedonia should change its hame to Northern Somalia..

1) Can you scientifically confirm 100% that I or any other Macedonian has not one shred of Ancient Macedonian DNA in our system dating back from the Ancient Macedonians.?

2)1) Can you scientifically confirm 100% that you or any other Athenian has not one shred of Turkish DNA in your system??

Now lets stick to the questions, lets not vere off the beaten track..

Or are we all Anglo saxons becuase we speak English? My neighbour has Polish background though does not speak a word of Polish, i guess he can claim British acnestory..

I guess its a matter of choice, freedom and democracy.. the right of self determination..

As opposed to albanians European people do not like to be governed by criminals.Expect series of civil protests.
(szemi, 17 November 2009 19:28)

Thank god if it works that way.Because Serbia will never be in the EU based on the numbers of criminals.

Leonidis,

You and your Greek freinds seem to get all excited about keeping a poor country down like Macedonia. WOW, that is really cool. Do you really think that us calling ourselves Macedonians is going to change the border? I'm sure the mighty 10,000 man under-armed Macedonian army poses as a real threat. The name issue is just false outrage. If not, then you better start understanding why we don't like to be called Bulgarians. Because your utter and distasteful display of arrogance somes from the fact you know most Westerners don't really know the issue, and really, could care less. I know you Greeks think you are the center of all the universe...

Face it, you know that the more Westerners learn about what really happened in the Greek Civil War (yeah, using napalm on women and children was really classy) your side will be more scrutinized. That's why the Turks are using the Macedonians against you and you guys are trying to use the Serbs against us. What all of us need to look at is the Albanain issue, but what do I know, you guys have that all under control...phewh

Leonidis,

First thing, I am not a Kool-aid drinker! (a phrase used here in the States used to explain to people that you just do not accept things at face value) So I don’t know what “truth” hurts? I have a GRADUATE degree in the States and work in Academia here and I know that the Macedonians now are not the Macedonians from Alexander's time. Second, yes, the Slav Macedonians did rise up because they did not want to be in Greece (at least you acknowledged that Slav Macedonians existed, I have to give you credit there). They tried to use the Communists to gain an advantage and got burned. Also, for your information, I was appalled that Macedonia recognized Kosovo! Most Macedonians disagreed with that position, and the ones that did, wanted to give Serbia some payback for the name crisis and not that they cared about Kosovo. So please, do not lump me in with the Macedonians back in the homeland, please. The name thing for people like me is so trivial it is a waste of time and energy. The Macedonians will still call themselves Macedonians and the US government recognized us under the Constitutional name (although, I don’t want to equate myself with a Kosovar by being giddy about this issue when I am not). You can’t make people feel something that they are not; no matter if you feel they are misguided. Just look at how many Kosovars claim to be Illyrians! Please tell me you’ve tried to correct them, right?… speaking of which….

Just as you do not appreciate certain things, I would appreciate you not equating the Macedonians to the Bulgarians! Trust me; Bulgarians think we are one of them in an effort to do a land grab. Many of us speak more Serbian than we do Bulgarian, so get your facts straight! Many of us enjoy more Serbian things (and in my case) and have connections/ancestry in Serbia. Also, many of you sit on these websites waiting to contradict anything that has a tint of being anti-Greek. Your lobbyists would be so proud! I understand you feel for the Greeks that lost their lives, but I feel for the thousands of Macedonian Slavs killed during that conflict and some being burned alive with napalm as they fled to Yugoslavia! I’m pretty sure the thousands of exiles living in Toronto and Sydney are just making all of this up I’m sure… so go ahead, Greeks, give me the thumbs down!

I am 100% a Greek NATIONALIST,
and the only sane person in here is Toni.

Toni, i can only pronounce your country as "FYROM"
(maybe F means "Future"??),
but besides that, i am with your views 100%.

Some Greeks dont understand that there are vast differences between your people and Bulgarians, and that the more they are spinning over great bulgaria ideal, the more you get more mad about your not being Bulgarian.

Can we build a level of TRUST?
Can we build direct communication channels?

Leonidas,

I am just tired of your ultra-Greek nationalism you spew on this website. You keep getting on Macedonians for not wanting to be Bulgarians which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How would you like to be called a Turk? We Macedonians are different from the Bulgarians. PERIOD! Can we be serious why you Greeks live on these forum sites? It's your obsession to deny that Macedonian-Slavs ever existed in Greece! Just stop it! We are Macedonians and will call ourselves what ever we want. The name thing is all you Greeks have since your economy is tanking. Obviously the peasants need to focus on a feel-ggod story...

It's ironic that the so called Macedonians want to be called Macedonians when they were all happy to call themselves yugoslavs up until 1991. You wanted to back Tito's regime and portray yourselves as yugoslavs..so be it.

To Tony et al

Read the following message.

Bitola
2009-11-18 01:13:12
As a Bulgarian living in Bitola I have to say Mr. Shuxx you have not been there or you have been talking to the wrong people. Bitloa has a large Bulgarian community who is proud of their Macedonian heritage. You look only in one direction and that is the direction you choose to look. We have many Macedonians who are proud of their Bulgarian origins and live especially in Bitola, Ohrid, Prilep, Krushevo, Strumica. As our leader Delchev reminded his people at the turn of the century, "our Bulgarian fathers will be watching how well we act in our Macedonian lands." Tito only created a Yugoslav identity not a Macedonian one his intentions have since been uncovered. The Bulgarian background of the people of Macedonia was such a threat to Tito that he had to create a yugoslav state to appease and detach elements among the strong VMRO who at the time were pursuing closer cooperation with Sofia. Yes Proud to be a Macedonian of Bulgarian origins. Our Slavic forebears will always remain with us while the Aleksander Veliki believers will remain the constant laughing stock of our nation. Delchev for all the Bulgarians of Macedonia and Aleksander Veliki for all the Yugoslavs of Macedonia.
Gotse

BG, my explanation just went over your head... why should we consider ourselves Bulgarians.

You should not. And you are not. A person who has never heard od Botev, Vazov, Levski et c. could hardly be a Bulgarian. Yet the inescapable fact is that the majority of the people in todays Macedonia few generations ago were part of the Bulgrian nation. Joakim Krchovski and Kiril Pejchinovich called their language (at time when there was no standard Bulgarian yet) :"Simplest Bulgarian language". Miladinovci compiled and published in Zagreb "Bulgarian Folk Songs", VMRO started its history as "Bulgarian Macedonian - Odrinian Revolutionary Committee". Not to mention earlier history. St. Kliment and St. Naum created schools in today's Eastern Bulgaria and in today's Macedonia, paid by the Bulgarian kings, etc etc.Or newer history. During World War I out of 20 odd Bulgrian generals 8 were native of Ohrid, (+ few more from other towns of Macedonia), one of them gen. Bojadzhiev was theChief of staff of the Bulgarian army!Sadly another one crushed a Serbian rebelian in the Nish area, as a revange of the crushing of the Ohrid uprising two years earlier...
History is what it was, the only thing in the world no one could change. Part of your history is also the debulgarization between the wars when all of the inteligentsia was exiled, (a quarter of Sofia was populated by Macedonian refugees), the clumsy attempt to reunite Macedonia with Bulgaria during WWII which started with great euphoria, yet led to some disapointment. No wonder, Bulgaria itself was in a civil war (pro)fascists ageinst communists... Then you have all the construction of the Macedonian nation on that furtaile ground.
Nobody in Bulgaria wants a LANDGRAB. All we want is to be friends with you, the history to be revealed as it was. In a long run this may lead to reconciliation between Bulgarians and the Serbs, which is crucial for the stability of the Balkans!

Leonida, the internet is full os such posts from every possible side.
Dont take them as some holy bible or smth...

Toni,
Vladko Stefanovski is GOD!

Once again Leonidis, you are showing the utterly lack any understanding of the issue about Bulgaria and you picked the wrong person to pull that Bitola garbage as I am going to expose you now!!!

Taking the word of one individual living in Bitola as the "truth" equates you to the crazy "birthers" here in the States (the ones that think Obama was born in Kenya and is a Muslim). MY WIFE IS FROM THE BITOLA REGION AND I NEVER RAN INTO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELVES A BULGARIAN!!!!! AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT LINE OF THINKING COULD GET YOU BEAT UP IN BITOLA, OR PRETTY MUCH EVERY ELSE IN MACEDONIA (with the exception of maybe the town of Delchevo, which is right next to Bulgaria)!!! DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU POST!! I am from the northern part and many of us have closer ties with the Serbs but STILL consider ourselves Macedonians! AND WE FOR SURE DON'T CONSIDER OURSELVES BULGARIANS, OR EVEN SPEAK BULGARIAN!!! I JUST EXPOSED YOU PHONY! I bet you never got past high school based on your posts… GET OVER THIS FASCINATION WITH BULGARIA, MAYBE IT IS YOU THAT HAS THE BULGARIAN ROOTS!!!!!!!!

The "Macedonians" simply do not have any other name for their fragile identity.

That's not our problem they still have to negotiate.

The sooner they join the EU and NATO the better

Why is the best to join NATO? To help Americans in their new wars? I hope someday NATO will break up since it has lost its meaning anymore.

They will relax and stop with their futile search of ancient "roots".

Are u sure? Sorry but with this kind of nationalistic government i dont see how that is possible.

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.

greatful to NATO?? Are you serious? We only joined because Turkey joined too. 99% of greeks are against USA and NATO. I have never met anyone in my life in GREECE that supports USA and NATO policy. I acknowledge your point to join since Turkey joined, but if we cant protect our own borders we are worthless then! Also as members (unfortunately) we dont have to like NATO or approve of its wars. We have a brain and we can think. So you say join NATO and bomb others or suffer invasion and bombing? No thanks-i hope NATO breaks up, there is no Soviet Union anymore and no reason for NATO to exist.

Can we build a level of TRUST?
Can we build direct communication channels?
(Pyrros, 18 November 2009 13:20)


YES! I want to work with you guys as do some of us same Macedonians (or Fyroms as Nikos wants to call us). We all have to come to an understanding that if the Albanian issue isn't addressed ny all of us in the region, we can have a bigger problem on ALL of our hands! Hey, I like Greek food, music, culture, travel, etc.., so why are we budding heads over such a trival issue? I get the history and everything, but lets get serious here, it's a name! And like I said, no borders are going to chnage!

BG, my explanation just went over your head... why should we consider ourselves Bulgarians?

Tony

You've lost your cool man.Take it easy.

You say:
WE FOR SURE DON'T CONSIDER OURSELVES BULGARIANS
Are you saying the statistics emanating from the Bulgarian ministry of interior showing that about 100000 of your compatriots obtaining Bulgarian passports are damn lies?

You say:
OR EVEN SPEAK BULGARIAN

My best friend's wife who is a Bularian medic she will tell you that your language is similar to West Bulgarian dialect.

As to your jibe about my education what i can tell you is
It will take you many years to obtain my academic credentials.

Leonidis, are you serious? Do you even know why they are obtaining those passports?!! It's because they are trying to get access to the EU!!!! If you are so highly educated then stop posting half-truths! You are making this too easy! Desperate people sometimes do desperate things. The Bulgarians have stopped issuing those very passports to a trickle because many of the young ones refuse to do military service in the Bulgarian military. That sure does nullify your "why did they run for passports" argument in an attempt to have them painted as somehow being "Bulgarian."

As for whoever your relative is that says that about the dialect; sure, it's similar in certain areas of Macedonia, BUT NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHERE I AM FROM AND WHERE MY WIFE IS FROM (which pretty much eliminates over 1/2 the country). You so don't have a clue what you are talking about and it is showing. That's what happens when you do not use primary sources or bother doing any research you amateur... maybe that Bulgarian relative of yours over-looked that part about the passports, LOL!

Hey, I got one for you. I had a guy that fixed my car in a body shop recently tell me he was a Macedonian from Bulgarian... you know.. Pirinska Macedonia. He didn't mince any words and he said Macedonian. Another region you seem clueless about.

Nikos,
Great Britain is NOT equal to UK. England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain; Great Britain + Northern Irland = UK. There is also a region called Luxemburg in Belgium! In a seanse both BG and Tony are right. The Macedonians simply do not have any other name for their fragile identity. The sooner they join the EU and NATO the better. They will relax and stop with their futile search of ancient "roots". Surely thai is in Greece's interest too.

Toni,
All South Slavoic languages, from Slovenian to Bulgarian are to some degree interintelligible. It is a good question to ask: How many languages are there? What is a language and what is a dialect? Slovenian for instance has few dialects that differ from each other more then some of the languages. Serbs in Bosnia speak more like Bosninaks than like Serbs from Pirot. Yet Bosnian Serbs claim their langage to be Serbian and the Bosniaks claim to have a language of their oun?! Objectively we could divide the South Slavic languages into three dialect continiums. Slovenian, Serbo-Croat and Bulgarian (or Bulgaro-Macedonian if one has to be politically correct). There are few Macedonians who say they are Bulgarians, and there are few Bulgarians in Pirinska Macedonia who would say they are Macedonians. In both cases they do not differ from their immediate neighbours by anything else than their interpretation of history. But you would never find a traditional ethnic border: one village to has been Macedonian, the next Bulgarian and people to say: We the Macedonians, they (in the next village) the Bulgarians such as you have Macedonians - Serbs (in Skopska Crna Gora), Macedonians - Albanians; Bulgarians - Turks, even Serbs - Montenegirians (in Kotor)

I, as an Albanian am laughing my pants off

I love how you all agree on your "Albanian issue"

It is an issue for you, but unfortunately for you it's not the 1900s where you can murder, colonize, deport, deprive, oppress, and so on, to gain demographically.

Macedonia's time will come. Whatever you name it now, it may be renamed 50 years later.

Nikos,
You Greeks should be very greatful to NATO. You saw what happened to Cyprus, which in the 60's twice refused to join the pact! NATO membership means at least secure borders.

I am not disputing that. I actually know about the dialects, languages, etc.., so you are preaching to the quire here. I know the physical border is not the indicator of a true "border." Forget Eastern Europe, you can use examples from all over the world to further expand your points about ethnic/racial groups spilling over into other countries. I am just getting annoyed with Leonidis and others trying to paint us as Bulgarians when we are not. This Bulgarian dialect thing is pretty ridiculous and is only being repeated time-and-time again by some in an attempt to just anger/discredit us. If anything, it is pretty laughable if you ask me. Trying to gloss over the multitude of issues and paint a picture of an alternate reality that doesn't exist except in the minds of a few people behind a computer is what makes this whole thing hysterical. So keep believing your distorted reality Leonidis and others, it will not change some of the things taking place right now with the name issue. If that makes you feel better, good for you, but me and others are pretty secure in knowing what we are- no matter how we got here to this point of calling ourselves as Macedonians. I still am waiting for Leonidis or any of you to tell me if you have corrected the Albanians by explaining to them they have very little if any connections to the Illyrians?
Let’s get serious here for one second, the true reason that some Greeks like Leo fear "Macedonia" is that they think the exiles, the Macedonians in Bulgaria and the current Slav Macedonians will want to unite in some new country that will rip apart the borders because of a Communist conspiracy created by Titio in the 1940’s. I'm telling you guys, as a Macedonian, THAT ISN'T HAPPENING! If the Kurds who have 25 million people and are much more organized than we are can't get a homeland, what makes you think we will? Yes, there are some of my people that advocate this crazy thing and believe that was always the case, but I am not one of them. The sooner you guys relax about it, the better we will all be.

Common guys come down, FYROM is Albanian and Bulgarian just wait for 2014 and see it or ask Serbs they know this better.

nik,
After so many dacades of having at first much batter life, then surprisingly findinig themselves desparate, most Macedonians simply don't like us (or their own history) They like the times they were in Yugoslavia. It is as simple as that. Yugoslavia is not likely to rise again. S they will have to join the EU. But if we are willing to forgive them, the Greeks are not! They will have to find a compromise!

Iam Greek that lives now in Serbia with Serbian Wife.I know the history very well
FYROM should be split in half
Albania the east and Bulgaria
the west,nothing for Greece or Serbia .

CCCC

greatful to NATO?? Are you serious? We only joined because Turkey joined too. 99% of greeks are against USA and NATO. I have never met anyone in my life in GREECE that supports USA and NATO policy. I acknowledge your point to join since Turkey joined, but if we cant protect our own borders we are worthless then! Also as members (unfortunately) we dont have to like NATO or approve of its wars. We have a brain and we can think. So you say join NATO and bomb others or suffer invasion and bombing? No thanks-i hope NATO breaks up, there is no Soviet Union anymore and no reason for NATO to exist.
(Nikos, 19 November 2009 14:00)

But of course you dont. You like US money, almost $250 billions from the west, army supplies and NATO protection though. Without them, Turkey can take you with their traffic police over a weekend, while you all drunk after partying in buzuqis, and no albanians (arvanites, & suliots) will not be around this time to help and fight for you like they did in 1821. Like that chinese proverb goes - Beware what you wish for.

I mean how low can one go?

You are right though, you are an anti-US and anti-western in general. In fact well known for your terrorist groups (November 17) for dacades. Greece was always spoiled from the west and takes many things for granted.

The funny thing is that you truly believe, Greece can think for itself, and do what it wants..... although it has received the largest amount of foreign aid per capita in the world from those who it hates.

tony said

I still am waiting for Leonidis or any of you to tell me if you have corrected the Albanians by explaining to them they have very little if any connections to the Illyrians?

tony can you tell us where did Albanians come from? you are educated in the US ; can you tell us what did you learn there. Maybe Leonidas is interested too in this facts.

tony can you tell us where did Albanians come from? you are educated in the US ; can you tell us what did you learn there. Maybe Leonidas is interested too in this facts.
(moisi, 20 November 2009 09:43)
I’d be glad to tell you moisi. First, something you don’t want to hear. No one in the US really cares about the ancient Illyrians. Yes, we learned about them in ancient history classes here and there, but no one links them to modern Albanians. Only in the last 60 years have you guys (Albanians) been so hard core in trying to make that connection. Trying to link yourself to an ancient and proud people will not make up for any short comings of your people today (your reputation precedes you in most of Western Europe and here in the States, don’t kid yourself). Secondly, other Slavic tribes in the region and many Greeks can claim to have connections to the Illyrians. The Croats have tried making that claim too, which of course lead to you guys howling and screaming that NO ONE else can claim their heritage to this group. Anyone who tries to question your claims because archeological evidence is inconclusive (spare me with your YouTube videos) are sketchy at best. Anyone questioning your claims like John Wilkes (a very respected historian I might add) is either ignorant or doesn’t know an Albanian personally (which, I don’t know how that determines ancient lineage, but who cares about facts from your side). I know about your little propaganda war that isn’t getting much traction in Academia over here because it takes FACTS to make your argument, not myths and folklore (which is pretty common in our region amongst all of the people). Too bad I haven’t run into too many of you over here to debate these issues.
Look, we have the same issue with Macedonians claiming to be direct decedents of the ancient Macedonians of Alexander. I have already told you I don’t buy it and know it’s not true. So in short, hate to burst your bubble, but the reaction over here is “who cares?”

Tony?

There are plenty educated Albanians in America and this goes back 1890s. Just come to Harvard and I can show you their names.

You do not make a point and you dont have an answer.

Albanians have a very good reputations, but there are few who make the news for bad deeds.

Stop this propaganda as an educated man you should not be like this.

And your beloved Macedonia you have to live with Albanians like it or not, they have a voice and they are there to Stay.

What makes you so much better then the rest.

Bilbao, lets take each of your points one at a time…
“There are plenty educated Albanians in America ….”
Sorry, I haven’t run into them in the fields of history and politics in academia. I would be glad to meet them when I’m in Boston again. Not saying there are not, but not in the big academic circles I am involved in (which is pretty huge).
“You do not make a point and you dont have an answer. “
Exactly! Because there is no exact answer to the heritage question. Albanians could be a mix of Tharcians or any other group. I had to knock down the Illyrian thing because that issue is front-and-center for Albanians. That is where that moises person was going with his statement.

“Albanians have a very good reputations, but there are few who make the news for bad deeds.”
I’ll give you some leeway on that, but many more are involved in under-world activities that have made the Albanian Mafia a force to be reckoned with. If you feel that they have GREAT reputations, I’ll let you believe that (not that I can change your mind).

“Stop this propaganda as an educated man you should not be like this.”
Sorry, propaganda is just a part of human nature. Any time you have people explaining things, spin is part of it. It’s just a matter of how one interprets it. To you its propaganda, to me , I’m laying out some facts…

“And your beloved Macedonia you have to live with Albanians like it or not, they have a voice and they are there to Stay”
Oh, so that’s what this is about? How much more say should 25% of the population have in a country? They have a say, but when you try to run a parallel society within a country where you are not the majority, the majority will have a problem with that. Just look at the Latino issue here in the US. Please, now you over-played your hand.

“What makes you so much better then the rest.”
On this forum? Education and awards. I don’t need to elaborate any further to you. BTW, you might want to use spell-check and grammar review. It might make your points more salient. If you don't know what that means, you might want to grab a fjalor (dictionary in your language).

I old a PHD in electrical engineering so Education we are in same level.

Good getting awards I have them too :) no need for spell check I am writing on a blog not a research paper.

But congrats i wish you the best come to Harvard i can show you around, and mite make that circle a bit bigger.

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.

Leonidas,

I am just tired of your ultra-Greek nationalism you spew on this website. You keep getting on Macedonians for not wanting to be Bulgarians which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How would you like to be called a Turk? We Macedonians are different from the Bulgarians. PERIOD! Can we be serious why you Greeks live on these forum sites? It's your obsession to deny that Macedonian-Slavs ever existed in Greece! Just stop it! We are Macedonians and will call ourselves what ever we want. The name thing is all you Greeks have since your economy is tanking. Obviously the peasants need to focus on a feel-ggod story...

Leonidis,

You and your Greek freinds seem to get all excited about keeping a poor country down like Macedonia. WOW, that is really cool. Do you really think that us calling ourselves Macedonians is going to change the border? I'm sure the mighty 10,000 man under-armed Macedonian army poses as a real threat. The name issue is just false outrage. If not, then you better start understanding why we don't like to be called Bulgarians. Because your utter and distasteful display of arrogance somes from the fact you know most Westerners don't really know the issue, and really, could care less. I know you Greeks think you are the center of all the universe...

Face it, you know that the more Westerners learn about what really happened in the Greek Civil War (yeah, using napalm on women and children was really classy) your side will be more scrutinized. That's why the Turks are using the Macedonians against you and you guys are trying to use the Serbs against us. What all of us need to look at is the Albanain issue, but what do I know, you guys have that all under control...phewh

As opposed to albanians European people do not like to be governed by criminals.Expect series of civil protests.
(szemi, 17 November 2009 19:28)

Thank god if it works that way.Because Serbia will never be in the EU based on the numbers of criminals.

hmm

To the aggressive little Greek posters on this Forum, if you can answer the following questions, I will agree that Macedonia should change its hame to Northern Somalia..

1) Can you scientifically confirm 100% that I or any other Macedonian has not one shred of Ancient Macedonian DNA in our system dating back from the Ancient Macedonians.?

2)1) Can you scientifically confirm 100% that you or any other Athenian has not one shred of Turkish DNA in your system??

Now lets stick to the questions, lets not vere off the beaten track..

Or are we all Anglo saxons becuase we speak English? My neighbour has Polish background though does not speak a word of Polish, i guess he can claim British acnestory..

I guess its a matter of choice, freedom and democracy.. the right of self determination..

Leonidis,

First thing, I am not a Kool-aid drinker! (a phrase used here in the States used to explain to people that you just do not accept things at face value) So I don’t know what “truth” hurts? I have a GRADUATE degree in the States and work in Academia here and I know that the Macedonians now are not the Macedonians from Alexander's time. Second, yes, the Slav Macedonians did rise up because they did not want to be in Greece (at least you acknowledged that Slav Macedonians existed, I have to give you credit there). They tried to use the Communists to gain an advantage and got burned. Also, for your information, I was appalled that Macedonia recognized Kosovo! Most Macedonians disagreed with that position, and the ones that did, wanted to give Serbia some payback for the name crisis and not that they cared about Kosovo. So please, do not lump me in with the Macedonians back in the homeland, please. The name thing for people like me is so trivial it is a waste of time and energy. The Macedonians will still call themselves Macedonians and the US government recognized us under the Constitutional name (although, I don’t want to equate myself with a Kosovar by being giddy about this issue when I am not). You can’t make people feel something that they are not; no matter if you feel they are misguided. Just look at how many Kosovars claim to be Illyrians! Please tell me you’ve tried to correct them, right?… speaking of which….

Just as you do not appreciate certain things, I would appreciate you not equating the Macedonians to the Bulgarians! Trust me; Bulgarians think we are one of them in an effort to do a land grab. Many of us speak more Serbian than we do Bulgarian, so get your facts straight! Many of us enjoy more Serbian things (and in my case) and have connections/ancestry in Serbia. Also, many of you sit on these websites waiting to contradict anything that has a tint of being anti-Greek. Your lobbyists would be so proud! I understand you feel for the Greeks that lost their lives, but I feel for the thousands of Macedonian Slavs killed during that conflict and some being burned alive with napalm as they fled to Yugoslavia! I’m pretty sure the thousands of exiles living in Toronto and Sydney are just making all of this up I’m sure… so go ahead, Greeks, give me the thumbs down!

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.
(hazel, 17 November 2009 16:05)

The Americans tried their best last year at Bucharest and they got the Greek answer.

As far as the EU is concerned the Americans haven't got any saying at all. Lat April when Obama asked the EU to include Turkey in its enlargement, the French and the germans told him to mind his own bloody business.

As far as fyrom is concerned,there won't be any invitation to start negotiations and they will be pushed back for the next enlargement sometime in the very distant future together with the Albanians-if the Albanians are allowed ever to join.

Face it, you know that the more Westerners learn about what really happened in the Greek Civil War (yeah, using napalm on women and children was really classy) your side will be more scrutinized. That's why the Turks are using the Macedonians against you and you guys are trying to use the Serbs against us. What all of us need to look at is the Albanain issue, but what do I know, you guys have that all under control...phewh
(Toni, 17 November 2009 20:29)

It's your compatriots that took arms against Greece in the civil war not to mention your collusion with nazi germany in the second world war.

It's Skopje which recognised
Kosovo and not Greece.It is you that must look at the Albanian issue.

I, as an Albanian am laughing my pants off

I love how you all agree on your "Albanian issue"

It is an issue for you, but unfortunately for you it's not the 1900s where you can murder, colonize, deport, deprive, oppress, and so on, to gain demographically.

Macedonia's time will come. Whatever you name it now, it may be renamed 50 years later.

Common guys come down, FYROM is Albanian and Bulgarian just wait for 2014 and see it or ask Serbs they know this better.

The Republic of Macedonia will remain actively involved in the dialogue led under the patronage of the UN,” said the foreign minister

B92

There isn't any dialog to be involved with mr milososki.What we have is the same entrenched fyromian positions that we had for the last 18 years.

What Gruevski and the rest of the fyromian nationalist mandra have been advocating for the last 5 years are the fascist jingoistic positions of the fyromian diaspora and he has done everything in his power to create the illusionary connection with antiguity thus negating their slavic heritage.

If Gruevski wants to be connected with the ancient Greeks i have no objection but when he leaves office he shouldn't rush to the Bulgarian embassy,like other ministers and more than 100000 of his compatriots have done,with his grandparents documents to support his application for a Bulgarian passport.

It suffices to say that Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov called Bulgaria and Fyrom as sister nations.No wonder why Bulgaria doen't recognise the Fyromian language as anything else but Bulgarian.

I am just tired of your ultra-Greek nationalism you spew on this website. You keep getting on Macedonians for not wanting to be Bulgarians which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How would you like to be called a Turk? We Macedonians are different from the Bulgarians. PERIOD! Can we be serious why you Greeks live on these forum sites? It's your obsession to deny that Macedonian-Slavs ever existed in Greece! Just stop it! We are Macedonians and will call ourselves what ever we want. The name thing is all you Greeks have since your economy is tanking. Obviously the peasants need to focus on a feel-ggod story...
(Toni, 17 November 2009

The truth hurts tony doesn't it?My attempts to expose your ficticious glorious past doesn't make me an ultra-nationalist.Iam here to do justice not only to history but also to all Greek soldiers who lost their lives in the balkan wars fighting for makedonia the real one, the Greek one.

Iam not denying that Slavs existed in Greece but it's Skopje's propaganda which tries to link those Slavs with Greek history that bothers me and my fellow Greeks.

If our economy is tanking why then the thousands of your impoverished compatriots que outside the Greek consular office to get visas to come and work in Greece?Unemployment rate of 40% in Fyrom-the economy is booming!

As to your rant about peasants you're obviously refering to your compatriots where 65% are still employed in agriculture.

If you bothered to look at European statistics you'll see that Greece is one of the countries with the highest number of university graduates in Europe.

Gruevski came to Bulgaria to ask for support because he knows that no matter how many stupidities he and his countrymen do Bulgaria is bound to be forgiving. Imagine you have a brother who was kidnapped. For a long period of time kept in a dungeon. Then they put him in a nice hotel, spoiled with good food and fancy cloths. Finally he goes free. You rejoy. Your brother is finallyfree. But he comes to you and sais: I am not your brother. "I am a great grandson of Alexander the Great". What will you do? You will shake your head, but if he gets in trouble you will still try to help him.

Can we build a level of TRUST?
Can we build direct communication channels?
(Pyrros, 18 November 2009 13:20)


YES! I want to work with you guys as do some of us same Macedonians (or Fyroms as Nikos wants to call us). We all have to come to an understanding that if the Albanian issue isn't addressed ny all of us in the region, we can have a bigger problem on ALL of our hands! Hey, I like Greek food, music, culture, travel, etc.., so why are we budding heads over such a trival issue? I get the history and everything, but lets get serious here, it's a name! And like I said, no borders are going to chnage!

BG, my explanation just went over your head... why should we consider ourselves Bulgarians?

Once again Leonidis, you are showing the utterly lack any understanding of the issue about Bulgaria and you picked the wrong person to pull that Bitola garbage as I am going to expose you now!!!

Taking the word of one individual living in Bitola as the "truth" equates you to the crazy "birthers" here in the States (the ones that think Obama was born in Kenya and is a Muslim). MY WIFE IS FROM THE BITOLA REGION AND I NEVER RAN INTO ANYONE CALLING THEMSELVES A BULGARIAN!!!!! AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT LINE OF THINKING COULD GET YOU BEAT UP IN BITOLA, OR PRETTY MUCH EVERY ELSE IN MACEDONIA (with the exception of maybe the town of Delchevo, which is right next to Bulgaria)!!! DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU POST!! I am from the northern part and many of us have closer ties with the Serbs but STILL consider ourselves Macedonians! AND WE FOR SURE DON'T CONSIDER OURSELVES BULGARIANS, OR EVEN SPEAK BULGARIAN!!! I JUST EXPOSED YOU PHONY! I bet you never got past high school based on your posts… GET OVER THIS FASCINATION WITH BULGARIA, MAYBE IT IS YOU THAT HAS THE BULGARIAN ROOTS!!!!!!!!

for my opinion the republic of macedonia should ignore greece and start talk with EU and ask the american freinds for their magic.with trops in afghanistan and iraq REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA will come more closer to EU day by day.all greeks can do is ask their old EMPIRE {BRITTISH} for any help and watch while the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA soon is NATO and EU member.greek veto is not valid anymore after the lisbon treaty.
(hazel, 17 November 2009 16:05)

NATO and Lisbon treaty.???????
Otherwise a €USSR outlined by Lisbon trety will soon fail.As opposed to albanians European people do not like to be governed by criminals.Expect series of civil protests.

I am 100% a Greek NATIONALIST,
and the only sane person in here is Toni.

Toni, i can only pronounce your country as "FYROM"
(maybe F means "Future"??),
but besides that, i am with your views 100%.

Some Greeks dont understand that there are vast differences between your people and Bulgarians, and that the more they are spinning over great bulgaria ideal, the more you get more mad about your not being Bulgarian.

Can we build a level of TRUST?
Can we build direct communication channels?

My fellow Fyromian friends,
Stop accusing us as ultra nationalists since no country in the world would allow some other country to be named as one of its provinces. Same did France with Great Britain, so GB had to change her name to UK. FYROM is not in possession of all of Macedonia land so is not entitled to use the name, actually no one can claim that name (as name of the state) because this implies territorial claims on neighboring countries. Another thing is that FYROMians claim they are no threat to us because they are small sized country, but Greece, Serbia and Montenegro were also small in comparison with Ottoman Empire and then all became larger and the Ottoman empire became smaller. I dont feel threatened now by FYROM, but who knows what will happen after 30,40 or 50 years?
So lets all go back to the negotiating table and you guys stop blaming Greece for your own choices, because since Greece has retreated from its original position your government became even more unwilling to discuss. The problem with FYROM is that they think they can just impose a solution to a bigger country. well guys after 18 years still nothing so better realize that the solution comes only through the negotiating table.
I agree that Albanians are the main problem in the region, so we all should concentrate on this.

Nikos,
Great Britain is NOT equal to UK. England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain; Great Britain + Northern Irland = UK. There is also a region called Luxemburg in Belgium! In a seanse both BG and Tony are right. The Macedonians simply do not have any other name for their fragile identity. The sooner they join the EU and NATO the better. They will relax and stop with their futile search of ancient "roots". Surely thai is in Greece's interest too.

It's ironic that the so called Macedonians want to be called Macedonians when they were all happy to call themselves yugoslavs up until 1991. You wanted to back Tito's regime and portray yourselves as yugoslavs..so be it.

Leonida, the internet is full os such posts from every possible side.
Dont take them as some holy bible or smth...

Toni,
Vladko Stefanovski is GOD!

I am not disputing that. I actually know about the dialects, languages, etc.., so you are preaching to the quire here. I know the physical border is not the indicator of a true "border." Forget Eastern Europe, you can use examples from all over the world to further expand your points about ethnic/racial groups spilling over into other countries. I am just getting annoyed with Leonidis and others trying to paint us as Bulgarians when we are not. This Bulgarian dialect thing is pretty ridiculous and is only being repeated time-and-time again by some in an attempt to just anger/discredit us. If anything, it is pretty laughable if you ask me. Trying to gloss over the multitude of issues and paint a picture of an alternate reality that doesn't exist except in the minds of a few people behind a computer is what makes this whole thing hysterical. So keep believing your distorted reality Leonidis and others, it will not change some of the things taking place right now with the name issue. If that makes you feel better, good for you, but me and others are pretty secure in knowing what we are- no matter how we got here to this point of calling ourselves as Macedonians. I still am waiting for Leonidis or any of you to tell me if you have corrected the Albanians by explaining to them they have very little if any connections to the Illyrians?
Let’s get serious here for one second, the true reason that some Greeks like Leo fear "Macedonia" is that they think the exiles, the Macedonians in Bulgaria and the current Slav Macedonians will want to unite in some new country that will rip apart the borders because of a Communist conspiracy created by Titio in the 1940’s. I'm telling you guys, as a Macedonian, THAT ISN'T HAPPENING! If the Kurds who have 25 million people and are much more organized than we are can't get a homeland, what makes you think we will? Yes, there are some of my people that advocate this crazy thing and believe that was always the case, but I am not one of them. The sooner you guys relax about it, the better we will all be.

hazel,

You are not well informed about the Lisbon treaty. According to the treaty every Eu country keeps right to veto for reasons of national interest and this is one.
We will veto again as we did for NATO, be sure about that and stop dreaming. And Hazel think of this..our FYROMIAN friends would not bother to negotiate if they could simply avoid us and enter Eu without our consent. You must come to reality like the rest of us and realize that another veto is coming soon if an acceptable solution for both sides is not found til then.

Many of us enjoy more Serbian things (and in my case) and have connections/ancestry in Serbia.

That is exactly the truth. Modern Macedonians are a product of separation of part of the Bulgarian nation and its integration within the Yugoslavian subculture. It is sad that the process inbread strong resentment of the traditional Bulgarian culture in Macedonia. This creates a big probem - the animosity between Serbs and Bulgarians. It also created today's problem with Greece. Because the theory of Slav Macedonians as a long existing separate people does not hold water. When the Slavs arrived in the region it was not called Macedonia (the name was used for the region around Constantinopol) History clearly shows that the Slavs and the ProtoBulgarians aculturated into a Slav speaking peolpe, the Macedonian Bulgarians started to accept the neme Macedonci as a regional name in the 19 th century and as a national in the 20th. The attempt to prove a lasting separatness could lead only to the claim of ancient Macedonian anssestory.

Tony

You've lost your cool man.Take it easy.

You say:
WE FOR SURE DON'T CONSIDER OURSELVES BULGARIANS
Are you saying the statistics emanating from the Bulgarian ministry of interior showing that about 100000 of your compatriots obtaining Bulgarian passports are damn lies?

You say:
OR EVEN SPEAK BULGARIAN

My best friend's wife who is a Bularian medic she will tell you that your language is similar to West Bulgarian dialect.

As to your jibe about my education what i can tell you is
It will take you many years to obtain my academic credentials.

To Tony et al

Read the following message.

Bitola
2009-11-18 01:13:12
As a Bulgarian living in Bitola I have to say Mr. Shuxx you have not been there or you have been talking to the wrong people. Bitloa has a large Bulgarian community who is proud of their Macedonian heritage. You look only in one direction and that is the direction you choose to look. We have many Macedonians who are proud of their Bulgarian origins and live especially in Bitola, Ohrid, Prilep, Krushevo, Strumica. As our leader Delchev reminded his people at the turn of the century, "our Bulgarian fathers will be watching how well we act in our Macedonian lands." Tito only created a Yugoslav identity not a Macedonian one his intentions have since been uncovered. The Bulgarian background of the people of Macedonia was such a threat to Tito that he had to create a yugoslav state to appease and detach elements among the strong VMRO who at the time were pursuing closer cooperation with Sofia. Yes Proud to be a Macedonian of Bulgarian origins. Our Slavic forebears will always remain with us while the Aleksander Veliki believers will remain the constant laughing stock of our nation. Delchev for all the Bulgarians of Macedonia and Aleksander Veliki for all the Yugoslavs of Macedonia.
Gotse

Nikos,
You Greeks should be very greatful to NATO. You saw what happened to Cyprus, which in the 60's twice refused to join the pact! NATO membership means at least secure borders.

Leonidis, are you serious? Do you even know why they are obtaining those passports?!! It's because they are trying to get access to the EU!!!! If you are so highly educated then stop posting half-truths! You are making this too easy! Desperate people sometimes do desperate things. The Bulgarians have stopped issuing those very passports to a trickle because many of the young ones refuse to do military service in the Bulgarian military. That sure does nullify your "why did they run for passports" argument in an attempt to have them painted as somehow being "Bulgarian."

As for whoever your relative is that says that about the dialect; sure, it's similar in certain areas of Macedonia, BUT NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHERE I AM FROM AND WHERE MY WIFE IS FROM (which pretty much eliminates over 1/2 the country). You so don't have a clue what you are talking about and it is showing. That's what happens when you do not use primary sources or bother doing any research you amateur... maybe that Bulgarian relative of yours over-looked that part about the passports, LOL!

Hey, I got one for you. I had a guy that fixed my car in a body shop recently tell me he was a Macedonian from Bulgarian... you know.. Pirinska Macedonia. He didn't mince any words and he said Macedonian. Another region you seem clueless about.

greatful to NATO?? Are you serious? We only joined because Turkey joined too. 99% of greeks are against USA and NATO. I have never met anyone in my life in GREECE that supports USA and NATO policy. I acknowledge your point to join since Turkey joined, but if we cant protect our own borders we are worthless then! Also as members (unfortunately) we dont have to like NATO or approve of its wars. We have a brain and we can think. So you say join NATO and bomb others or suffer invasion and bombing? No thanks-i hope NATO breaks up, there is no Soviet Union anymore and no reason for NATO to exist.

Iam Greek that lives now in Serbia with Serbian Wife.I know the history very well
FYROM should be split in half
Albania the east and Bulgaria
the west,nothing for Greece or Serbia .

CCCC

tony said

I still am waiting for Leonidis or any of you to tell me if you have corrected the Albanians by explaining to them they have very little if any connections to the Illyrians?

tony can you tell us where did Albanians come from? you are educated in the US ; can you tell us what did you learn there. Maybe Leonidas is interested too in this facts.

BG, my explanation just went over your head... why should we consider ourselves Bulgarians.

You should not. And you are not. A person who has never heard od Botev, Vazov, Levski et c. could hardly be a Bulgarian. Yet the inescapable fact is that the majority of the people in todays Macedonia few generations ago were part of the Bulgrian nation. Joakim Krchovski and Kiril Pejchinovich called their language (at time when there was no standard Bulgarian yet) :"Simplest Bulgarian language". Miladinovci compiled and published in Zagreb "Bulgarian Folk Songs", VMRO started its history as "Bulgarian Macedonian - Odrinian Revolutionary Committee". Not to mention earlier history. St. Kliment and St. Naum created schools in today's Eastern Bulgaria and in today's Macedonia, paid by the Bulgarian kings, etc etc.Or newer history. During World War I out of 20 odd Bulgrian generals 8 were native of Ohrid, (+ few more from other towns of Macedonia), one of them gen. Bojadzhiev was theChief of staff of the Bulgarian army!Sadly another one crushed a Serbian rebelian in the Nish area, as a revange of the crushing of the Ohrid uprising two years earlier...
History is what it was, the only thing in the world no one could change. Part of your history is also the debulgarization between the wars when all of the inteligentsia was exiled, (a quarter of Sofia was populated by Macedonian refugees), the clumsy attempt to reunite Macedonia with Bulgaria during WWII which started with great euphoria, yet led to some disapointment. No wonder, Bulgaria itself was in a civil war (pro)fascists ageinst communists... Then you have all the construction of the Macedonian nation on that furtaile ground.
Nobody in Bulgaria wants a LANDGRAB. All we want is to be friends with you, the history to be revealed as it was. In a long run this may lead to reconciliation between Bulgarians and the Serbs, which is crucial for the stability of the Balkans!

Toni,
All South Slavoic languages, from Slovenian to Bulgarian are to some degree interintelligible. It is a good question to ask: How many languages are there? What is a language and what is a dialect? Slovenian for instance has few dialects that differ from each other more then some of the languages. Serbs in Bosnia speak more like Bosninaks than like Serbs from Pirot. Yet Bosnian Serbs claim their langage to be Serbian and the Bosniaks claim to have a language of their oun?! Objectively we could divide the South Slavic languages into three dialect continiums. Slovenian, Serbo-Croat and Bulgarian (or Bulgaro-Macedonian if one has to be politically correct). There are few Macedonians who say they are Bulgarians, and there are few Bulgarians in Pirinska Macedonia who would say they are Macedonians. In both cases they do not differ from their immediate neighbours by anything else than their interpretation of history. But you would never find a traditional ethnic border: one village to has been Macedonian, the next Bulgarian and people to say: We the Macedonians, they (in the next village) the Bulgarians such as you have Macedonians - Serbs (in Skopska Crna Gora), Macedonians - Albanians; Bulgarians - Turks, even Serbs - Montenegirians (in Kotor)

nik,
After so many dacades of having at first much batter life, then surprisingly findinig themselves desparate, most Macedonians simply don't like us (or their own history) They like the times they were in Yugoslavia. It is as simple as that. Yugoslavia is not likely to rise again. S they will have to join the EU. But if we are willing to forgive them, the Greeks are not! They will have to find a compromise!

The "Macedonians" simply do not have any other name for their fragile identity.

That's not our problem they still have to negotiate.

The sooner they join the EU and NATO the better

Why is the best to join NATO? To help Americans in their new wars? I hope someday NATO will break up since it has lost its meaning anymore.

They will relax and stop with their futile search of ancient "roots".

Are u sure? Sorry but with this kind of nationalistic government i dont see how that is possible.

greatful to NATO?? Are you serious? We only joined because Turkey joined too. 99% of greeks are against USA and NATO. I have never met anyone in my life in GREECE that supports USA and NATO policy. I acknowledge your point to join since Turkey joined, but if we cant protect our own borders we are worthless then! Also as members (unfortunately) we dont have to like NATO or approve of its wars. We have a brain and we can think. So you say join NATO and bomb others or suffer invasion and bombing? No thanks-i hope NATO breaks up, there is no Soviet Union anymore and no reason for NATO to exist.
(Nikos, 19 November 2009 14:00)

But of course you dont. You like US money, almost $250 billions from the west, army supplies and NATO protection though. Without them, Turkey can take you with their traffic police over a weekend, while you all drunk after partying in buzuqis, and no albanians (arvanites, & suliots) will not be around this time to help and fight for you like they did in 1821. Like that chinese proverb goes - Beware what you wish for.

I mean how low can one go?

You are right though, you are an anti-US and anti-western in general. In fact well known for your terrorist groups (November 17) for dacades. Greece was always spoiled from the west and takes many things for granted.

The funny thing is that you truly believe, Greece can think for itself, and do what it wants..... although it has received the largest amount of foreign aid per capita in the world from those who it hates.

tony can you tell us where did Albanians come from? you are educated in the US ; can you tell us what did you learn there. Maybe Leonidas is interested too in this facts.
(moisi, 20 November 2009 09:43)
I’d be glad to tell you moisi. First, something you don’t want to hear. No one in the US really cares about the ancient Illyrians. Yes, we learned about them in ancient history classes here and there, but no one links them to modern Albanians. Only in the last 60 years have you guys (Albanians) been so hard core in trying to make that connection. Trying to link yourself to an ancient and proud people will not make up for any short comings of your people today (your reputation precedes you in most of Western Europe and here in the States, don’t kid yourself). Secondly, other Slavic tribes in the region and many Greeks can claim to have connections to the Illyrians. The Croats have tried making that claim too, which of course lead to you guys howling and screaming that NO ONE else can claim their heritage to this group. Anyone who tries to question your claims because archeological evidence is inconclusive (spare me with your YouTube videos) are sketchy at best. Anyone questioning your claims like John Wilkes (a very respected historian I might add) is either ignorant or doesn’t know an Albanian personally (which, I don’t know how that determines ancient lineage, but who cares about facts from your side). I know about your little propaganda war that isn’t getting much traction in Academia over here because it takes FACTS to make your argument, not myths and folklore (which is pretty common in our region amongst all of the people). Too bad I haven’t run into too many of you over here to debate these issues.
Look, we have the same issue with Macedonians claiming to be direct decedents of the ancient Macedonians of Alexander. I have already told you I don’t buy it and know it’s not true. So in short, hate to burst your bubble, but the reaction over here is “who cares?”

Tony?

There are plenty educated Albanians in America and this goes back 1890s. Just come to Harvard and I can show you their names.

You do not make a point and you dont have an answer.

Albanians have a very good reputations, but there are few who make the news for bad deeds.

Stop this propaganda as an educated man you should not be like this.

And your beloved Macedonia you have to live with Albanians like it or not, they have a voice and they are there to Stay.

What makes you so much better then the rest.

Bilbao, lets take each of your points one at a time…
“There are plenty educated Albanians in America ….”
Sorry, I haven’t run into them in the fields of history and politics in academia. I would be glad to meet them when I’m in Boston again. Not saying there are not, but not in the big academic circles I am involved in (which is pretty huge).
“You do not make a point and you dont have an answer. “
Exactly! Because there is no exact answer to the heritage question. Albanians could be a mix of Tharcians or any other group. I had to knock down the Illyrian thing because that issue is front-and-center for Albanians. That is where that moises person was going with his statement.

“Albanians have a very good reputations, but there are few who make the news for bad deeds.”
I’ll give you some leeway on that, but many more are involved in under-world activities that have made the Albanian Mafia a force to be reckoned with. If you feel that they have GREAT reputations, I’ll let you believe that (not that I can change your mind).

“Stop this propaganda as an educated man you should not be like this.”
Sorry, propaganda is just a part of human nature. Any time you have people explaining things, spin is part of it. It’s just a matter of how one interprets it. To you its propaganda, to me , I’m laying out some facts…

“And your beloved Macedonia you have to live with Albanians like it or not, they have a voice and they are there to Stay”
Oh, so that’s what this is about? How much more say should 25% of the population have in a country? They have a say, but when you try to run a parallel society within a country where you are not the majority, the majority will have a problem with that. Just look at the Latino issue here in the US. Please, now you over-played your hand.

“What makes you so much better then the rest.”
On this forum? Education and awards. I don’t need to elaborate any further to you. BTW, you might want to use spell-check and grammar review. It might make your points more salient. If you don't know what that means, you might want to grab a fjalor (dictionary in your language).

I old a PHD in electrical engineering so Education we are in same level.

Good getting awards I have them too :) no need for spell check I am writing on a blog not a research paper.

But congrats i wish you the best come to Harvard i can show you around, and mite make that circle a bit bigger.