The U.S. ambassador to Kosovo, Christopher Dell, says the local elections have shown that "independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing".
"Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy"
It is really funny to see the words "Democracy" and "Kosovo" together in one sentence.
Yes, it's the perfect paradise, this holy land of Kosovo, this multi-ethnic wonderstate, this lighthouse of democracy and freedom for the whole balcans... ;-)
TO SOME POSTERS:
In the real democracy, you are not obliged to vote. You do so ONLY if you want to do so.
Therefore, don't speculate with numbers. Numbers are as they are. 8000 wanted to vote, the rest didn't want to vote. This is DEMOCRACY... We have to respect this...
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
(Ardian, 17 November 2009 20:07)
Haven't you hard the news, no passports needed. The coolies were put back in their place :)
“Only five or six people voted in some polling stations, but they made it look like there had been a hundred. There are 123,000 Serbian voters on the voting lists, but less than 8,000 voted ,which is about five to six percent, including other ethnic minorities, and that cannot be regarded as a success,” the Kosovo minister pointed out.
Yes Mr Dell, wow a 5% turnout from Serbs. Yes, democracy is flourishing alright.
-- Having read over your comments again, I see that this was the crux of your post, and the issue of "true" vs "pseudo" Americans or whatever was brought up by your detractors, not by you. Obviously you and I are "loyal" to the same country we call home, but we differ on where that loyalty is placed. As the consummate academic, I scrutinize our politics far more, particularly in the way we market it abroad, which I sadly feel is little more than national self-interest thinly disguised as pre-packaged democracy. But don't worry. I’m not those tragically hip academics who write books on stuff only 5 other people care about. I'll still drink a pint of beer any day over a $4 latte, read Zakaria or Friedman over Chomsky (actually never cared for him), and enjoy a steak and potato dinner than anything "vegetarian", so I'm not *that* irredeemable :) Think of me as a cantankerous Goldwater/Paul conservative!
Still, you've got to wonder at the statements from Mr. Dell and whether they're a sign of his elementary understanding of democracy, or he's just talking down to a bunch of people he's set incredibly low standards for. Either way, I'm offended at his understanding of democracy and his threshold of electoral turnout, and my feelings for his, represented by his statements, are shared in the thread a few days ago between myself and Jetoni.
As far as our back and forth comments go, I hold fast to the "we're all Americans" statement from before. The fact that we and other live in the same place but have widely different opinions that cannot really trump any others is a testament to the diversity of ideas here, is it not?
The USA and NATO created a Frankenstein's Monster with Kosovo. The only "Democracy" in Kosovo is the ethnic Albanian majority controlling the non Albanian minority and making major decisions for the non ALbanian minority without any permission granted.
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
Joe, you and I, along with Ataman, Amer, Jetoni, Matthew, and others, are *all* Americans, so learn to share this vast land you currently call home. Classifying people as "true" or "pseudo" is a bit authoritarian for my tastes and smacks of the faux patriotism many Americans have and don't know what to do with. Unflinching loyalty to a country in the absence of cognitive thinking is the kind of stuff dictators we've fought repeatedly to overthrow like to employ. So while I recognize you as representative of a sizeable, and vocal, group of people in America, pardon me if I don't accept your brand of jackbooting patriotism.
Perhaps if our simple-minded "ambassador" to Kosovo rephrased his giddy statement, he might be taken more seriously.
Democracy is "growing" in Kosovo? - Sure
Democracy is "spreading" in Kosovo? - Why not?
Democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo? - Sorry, I took the red pill years ago to realize this is propaganda, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
For democracy to "flourish", democracy needs to be
a) consolidated
b) actively pursued
c) represented by at least two distinctive opposition parties
d) experienced party turnover at least once
e) inclusive of all its citizens
f) embrace not just electoral procedures, but an acceptance of social justice, multi-ethnic co-existence, and civic co-fraternity
g) embrace at least one democratic cultural narrative that shuns chauvanistic ethnocentrism
We've a long way to go in Kosovo before any of this is realized, so to say that democracy is "flourishing" when two pro-American lapdog parties competed, and by village-bey's account (which I agree with) notes there are no differences between the two except who's in charge at the top, is more than premature. Democracy is "growing", but critically still "rudimentary" in Kosovo. Just like it is in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for Washington to continusouly back the pro-American side, rather than the pro-democratic side, only contributes to a sense of voter apathy and citizen disengagement from the democratic process.
"...Did anyone see those flying pigs?"
Sure. There is a bakery called "When the pigs fly", Boston, USA. Unbelievably good breads! Kind a cute packaging, too. But Dell's "Kosova" statements?
Unpalatable!Poorly made packaging as well.
'Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican ...'
Please - the idea of foreigners deciding who is a true and who is a "pseudoamerican" is more than faintly ridiculous. Mike is an American, I am an American, and like most Americans we share a deep belief in its ideals and a certain scepticism about how they are implemented in practice, although it's obvious we criticize different aspects of its foreign policy. If democracy is going to work, you can't go ruling those with infuriatingly ridiculous ideas as pseudo-members of the group.
. Sometimes it means just the contrary
Ataman, 17 November 2009 12:10)
I am a bit afraid that this sometimes is rather always in today's world where politicians represent the interests of multis and lobbies rather than those of homeland or the avarage citizen let us say Józsi Bá(uncle JOE).Maybe FIDESZ is more inclined towarsds Burger King while MSZP towards MCDonalds (this are of course just some made up examples not reality) but none of them cares about above mentioned Uncle Joe or his wife Kati néni (aunti Kate).Well pürivete life and politics in Hungary.I could write a quite thick book about it.My wanna be fathers and mothers in law have never been able to understand my out of ordinary preferences.They were always afraid that instead of Neckerman Family holidays I took their dauthers to such places as Beirut,Belfast,Turkish Kurdistan or similars.Too much headache for average hungarian intelectual families.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives.
Where do you see your loyalty?
Mike is a true american, but also an american who thinks, unlike some other americans who support bombings of countries that do not threat USA. Loyalty is good but we have to use our brains and think also.
Bob, you are too naïve. The US did think before attacking Yu. But they didn't care a bit neither for Serbs nor for Albanians. They only cared about their geopolitical agenda and Milosevic didn't obey their orders. That's why he had to be crushed. So they constructed the whole Kosovo conflict. This is the explanation given by Noam Chomsky and he gives a book written by John Norris and Strobe Talbot from the Bill Clinton administration as source. There were no altruistic reasons for the attack (as stated by mainstream media in the west). The real reasons are revealed in the book that Chomsky quotes from.
Where do you see your loyalty?
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
If I understand you correctly, you expect me to be loyal to US administration, to Putin and to MSZP. And since FIDESZ will likely win next, I should be loyal to FIDESZ.
Unfortunately I am NOT loyal to any I just mention because I happen to have different ideas - be them good or bad. Liking your home country does not mean liking the government it does have. Sometimes it means just the contrary.
Going one step further: mixing private life (family, friends) with politics is IMO sick. For instance, the entire family of my wife is active protestant and devoted FIDESZ-follower. I am neither and it does not make much difference for me or them.
You people can say what ever you want, we had free and fair elections.
And we dont care if some persons dont support Kosovo as independent state, what it counts is that US gov supports us.
As for serbia they can have good relationship or bad with kosovo its up to them to chose, we simply dont care.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican who adores certain lobby which completly misleads america.WSJ and the truth .Two different words.Almost as if I gained information from either 168 óra or ATV.Democrates or Republicans.Well the left and right hands of AIPEC.God Bless America.The america of Mikes and other true americans who dare to be critical about current misled america and their brainwashed citizens.
""independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"
Did anyone see those flying pigs? Dell would have gone back to his fortress-like embassy and rolled on the floor with laughter, saying how dumb are these people to believe all this.
Uncle Sham I see you are at it again. Give the poor people of the world a break for once.Stop misleading and using people for your evil means and ends.
Some of you seem to imply that the UN is the ultimate authority and that nations are subject to it. Regardless of the UN's rules, whether or not Kosovo is a member of the UN, or any other criteria, the United States has recognized Kosovo. Consequently, the ambassador is acting properly by trying to ensure the stability and viability of Kosovo. In the eyes of the US (which the ambassador represents), Serbia no longer has any say in Kosovo, since Kosovo is now independent, and there is no reason for further negotiations. Don't expect the ambassador to take a different stance than the official position of his country.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
It seems democracy is about who has the most babies.
Not so much democracy, more demographics.
It seems law does not matter - that can be changed. Ownership does not matter - theft can always be legalised.
Such is the conception of Kosovo.
I suspect that it will be a still birth or at least a conjoined child. To call it a country in its own right is ridiculous and wrong.
The US rewarded years of ethnic cleansing. The Albanians wanted Serbs out - not 'baddy' Serbs but decent people who were pressured to leave so that there could be a monoethnic Albanian state formed.
The US thinks Milosevic was the only baddy - if the US thinks at all.
Don't talk nonsense about 'democracy' in Kosovo - let all the evicted Serbs from the last forty years vote too, then maybe there would be some honesty in the claim of 'democracy'.
I guess since this guy says so it must mean that it is the truth! I mean, he is objective in his conclusion now isn't he? Funny then that Dell couldn't work his magic and make the remaining 135 countries of the world think the same and accept his governments little Frankenstein creation into the UN.
Yep... It's said guy from country which attacked in last 10 years some of independent countries - members of EU, without declaration of war: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and probably prepare attack against Iran.
Micheal Breathnach, 16 November 2009 18:45)
It depends on prospective and as a Serb it must be hard to see this but I am sure Albanians do not agree with you.
no Democracy is perfect and many people confuse Democracy with Socialism.
Kosovo is in a right path.
You have Russia in your corner they have America
Time will tell for now they have control of majority of the territory and for each day it passes it will be harder for u to get it back not immpossible but harder.
Thank you Mr Ambassador,
You stand true to that great American tradition in support of freedom and liberty around the world.
That support as Kosovar Albanians have witnessed, often means that people have to govern their own lives, express themselves freely, and make their own political and economic choices. Support of their own initiatives toward this outcome is usually most welcome and is an appropriate role that respects the underlying value of self-determination inherent in democracy.
Mr. Ambassador, what is flourishing nowadays is unemployment - hang on in there from Friday to Friday paycheck, just keep talking, every little nonsense counts...
Democracy has become such an empty word, that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
How can democracy flourish when we really don't know what does it really mean?
I don't honestly think that ambassador really believes what he's saying.
When reality doesn't suit US government, they try their usual approach and force words into reality.
But the more they are pushing this approach, the more it is failing.
Compared to Afganistan and Iraq, in Kosovo case at least seemed to work for US government. For a time anyway.
Lately even this front is appearing less then solid. Kosovo as a state seems less viable now, the at the time of UDI declaration.
Even K-Albanias themselves seem like they are fed up with their leaders, faithful clients of Americans.
As for the ambassodor, one should not take much notice of his remarks.
If anything it proves that they are becoming increasingly nervous about the situation into which they trapped themselves by supporting KLA.
One does not speak in a provocative and aggressive manner when he's sure his policies are working.
"independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"...US Ambassador.
Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Dell but this does not compute.
I really doubt if you are 'the full shilling' to utter such a nonsense as a diplomat.
What the USA and NATO created in Kosovo i Metohija is nothing short of an abomination.
Despite the prolific distribution of US 'brown envelopes', we still see that less than a third of UN member states have recognised this failed entity.
I am convinced that the disrespect shown by Washington, et al, for International Law and disregard for the sovereignty of Nations' territories 'will surely return to haunt them.
Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy
B92
Like it's flourishing in Afganistan.Thaci probably got few tips from Karzai.
The "ambassador" probably forgets that the final status
of kosovo hasn't been agreed by both parties.Until that time comes no UN charter signatory has the right to recognise this illegal entity.
Until then the "ambassador" should refrain from making any comments which hinder the
prospects of any settlement.
Less than half of Kosovo's population votes, barely 25% of Kosovo's Serbs vote, and Dell says democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo. Clearly my country has sent a delusional fantasist to Pristina.
To all readers, not all us Americans are like this. Please don't stereotype us as halcyonic glue sniffers. The statements this guy makes clearly makes it seem he earned his post by being demoted from something else.
"independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"...US Ambassador.
Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Dell but this does not compute.
I really doubt if you are 'the full shilling' to utter such a nonsense as a diplomat.
What the USA and NATO created in Kosovo i Metohija is nothing short of an abomination.
Despite the prolific distribution of US 'brown envelopes', we still see that less than a third of UN member states have recognised this failed entity.
I am convinced that the disrespect shown by Washington, et al, for International Law and disregard for the sovereignty of Nations' territories 'will surely return to haunt them.
Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy
B92
Like it's flourishing in Afganistan.Thaci probably got few tips from Karzai.
The "ambassador" probably forgets that the final status
of kosovo hasn't been agreed by both parties.Until that time comes no UN charter signatory has the right to recognise this illegal entity.
Until then the "ambassador" should refrain from making any comments which hinder the
prospects of any settlement.
Less than half of Kosovo's population votes, barely 25% of Kosovo's Serbs vote, and Dell says democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo. Clearly my country has sent a delusional fantasist to Pristina.
To all readers, not all us Americans are like this. Please don't stereotype us as halcyonic glue sniffers. The statements this guy makes clearly makes it seem he earned his post by being demoted from something else.
Democracy has become such an empty word, that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
How can democracy flourish when we really don't know what does it really mean?
I don't honestly think that ambassador really believes what he's saying.
When reality doesn't suit US government, they try their usual approach and force words into reality.
But the more they are pushing this approach, the more it is failing.
Compared to Afganistan and Iraq, in Kosovo case at least seemed to work for US government. For a time anyway.
Lately even this front is appearing less then solid. Kosovo as a state seems less viable now, the at the time of UDI declaration.
Even K-Albanias themselves seem like they are fed up with their leaders, faithful clients of Americans.
As for the ambassodor, one should not take much notice of his remarks.
If anything it proves that they are becoming increasingly nervous about the situation into which they trapped themselves by supporting KLA.
One does not speak in a provocative and aggressive manner when he's sure his policies are working.
Yep... It's said guy from country which attacked in last 10 years some of independent countries - members of EU, without declaration of war: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and probably prepare attack against Iran.
Mr. Ambassador, what is flourishing nowadays is unemployment - hang on in there from Friday to Friday paycheck, just keep talking, every little nonsense counts...
You people can say what ever you want, we had free and fair elections.
And we dont care if some persons dont support Kosovo as independent state, what it counts is that US gov supports us.
As for serbia they can have good relationship or bad with kosovo its up to them to chose, we simply dont care.
Thank you Mr Ambassador,
You stand true to that great American tradition in support of freedom and liberty around the world.
That support as Kosovar Albanians have witnessed, often means that people have to govern their own lives, express themselves freely, and make their own political and economic choices. Support of their own initiatives toward this outcome is usually most welcome and is an appropriate role that respects the underlying value of self-determination inherent in democracy.
"...Did anyone see those flying pigs?"
Sure. There is a bakery called "When the pigs fly", Boston, USA. Unbelievably good breads! Kind a cute packaging, too. But Dell's "Kosova" statements?
Unpalatable!Poorly made packaging as well.
It seems democracy is about who has the most babies.
Not so much democracy, more demographics.
It seems law does not matter - that can be changed. Ownership does not matter - theft can always be legalised.
Such is the conception of Kosovo.
I suspect that it will be a still birth or at least a conjoined child. To call it a country in its own right is ridiculous and wrong.
The US rewarded years of ethnic cleansing. The Albanians wanted Serbs out - not 'baddy' Serbs but decent people who were pressured to leave so that there could be a monoethnic Albanian state formed.
The US thinks Milosevic was the only baddy - if the US thinks at all.
Don't talk nonsense about 'democracy' in Kosovo - let all the evicted Serbs from the last forty years vote too, then maybe there would be some honesty in the claim of 'democracy'.
Micheal Breathnach, 16 November 2009 18:45)
It depends on prospective and as a Serb it must be hard to see this but I am sure Albanians do not agree with you.
no Democracy is perfect and many people confuse Democracy with Socialism.
Kosovo is in a right path.
You have Russia in your corner they have America
Time will tell for now they have control of majority of the territory and for each day it passes it will be harder for u to get it back not immpossible but harder.
Where do you see your loyalty?
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
If I understand you correctly, you expect me to be loyal to US administration, to Putin and to MSZP. And since FIDESZ will likely win next, I should be loyal to FIDESZ.
Unfortunately I am NOT loyal to any I just mention because I happen to have different ideas - be them good or bad. Liking your home country does not mean liking the government it does have. Sometimes it means just the contrary.
Going one step further: mixing private life (family, friends) with politics is IMO sick. For instance, the entire family of my wife is active protestant and devoted FIDESZ-follower. I am neither and it does not make much difference for me or them.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives.
Where do you see your loyalty?
Mike is a true american, but also an american who thinks, unlike some other americans who support bombings of countries that do not threat USA. Loyalty is good but we have to use our brains and think also.
Joe, you and I, along with Ataman, Amer, Jetoni, Matthew, and others, are *all* Americans, so learn to share this vast land you currently call home. Classifying people as "true" or "pseudo" is a bit authoritarian for my tastes and smacks of the faux patriotism many Americans have and don't know what to do with. Unflinching loyalty to a country in the absence of cognitive thinking is the kind of stuff dictators we've fought repeatedly to overthrow like to employ. So while I recognize you as representative of a sizeable, and vocal, group of people in America, pardon me if I don't accept your brand of jackbooting patriotism.
Perhaps if our simple-minded "ambassador" to Kosovo rephrased his giddy statement, he might be taken more seriously.
Democracy is "growing" in Kosovo? - Sure
Democracy is "spreading" in Kosovo? - Why not?
Democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo? - Sorry, I took the red pill years ago to realize this is propaganda, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
For democracy to "flourish", democracy needs to be
a) consolidated
b) actively pursued
c) represented by at least two distinctive opposition parties
d) experienced party turnover at least once
e) inclusive of all its citizens
f) embrace not just electoral procedures, but an acceptance of social justice, multi-ethnic co-existence, and civic co-fraternity
g) embrace at least one democratic cultural narrative that shuns chauvanistic ethnocentrism
We've a long way to go in Kosovo before any of this is realized, so to say that democracy is "flourishing" when two pro-American lapdog parties competed, and by village-bey's account (which I agree with) notes there are no differences between the two except who's in charge at the top, is more than premature. Democracy is "growing", but critically still "rudimentary" in Kosovo. Just like it is in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for Washington to continusouly back the pro-American side, rather than the pro-democratic side, only contributes to a sense of voter apathy and citizen disengagement from the democratic process.
Uncle Sham I see you are at it again. Give the poor people of the world a break for once.Stop misleading and using people for your evil means and ends.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican who adores certain lobby which completly misleads america.WSJ and the truth .Two different words.Almost as if I gained information from either 168 óra or ATV.Democrates or Republicans.Well the left and right hands of AIPEC.God Bless America.The america of Mikes and other true americans who dare to be critical about current misled america and their brainwashed citizens.
""independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"
Did anyone see those flying pigs? Dell would have gone back to his fortress-like embassy and rolled on the floor with laughter, saying how dumb are these people to believe all this.
I guess since this guy says so it must mean that it is the truth! I mean, he is objective in his conclusion now isn't he? Funny then that Dell couldn't work his magic and make the remaining 135 countries of the world think the same and accept his governments little Frankenstein creation into the UN.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
Bob, you are too naïve. The US did think before attacking Yu. But they didn't care a bit neither for Serbs nor for Albanians. They only cared about their geopolitical agenda and Milosevic didn't obey their orders. That's why he had to be crushed. So they constructed the whole Kosovo conflict. This is the explanation given by Noam Chomsky and he gives a book written by John Norris and Strobe Talbot from the Bill Clinton administration as source. There were no altruistic reasons for the attack (as stated by mainstream media in the west). The real reasons are revealed in the book that Chomsky quotes from.
-- Having read over your comments again, I see that this was the crux of your post, and the issue of "true" vs "pseudo" Americans or whatever was brought up by your detractors, not by you. Obviously you and I are "loyal" to the same country we call home, but we differ on where that loyalty is placed. As the consummate academic, I scrutinize our politics far more, particularly in the way we market it abroad, which I sadly feel is little more than national self-interest thinly disguised as pre-packaged democracy. But don't worry. I’m not those tragically hip academics who write books on stuff only 5 other people care about. I'll still drink a pint of beer any day over a $4 latte, read Zakaria or Friedman over Chomsky (actually never cared for him), and enjoy a steak and potato dinner than anything "vegetarian", so I'm not *that* irredeemable :) Think of me as a cantankerous Goldwater/Paul conservative!
Still, you've got to wonder at the statements from Mr. Dell and whether they're a sign of his elementary understanding of democracy, or he's just talking down to a bunch of people he's set incredibly low standards for. Either way, I'm offended at his understanding of democracy and his threshold of electoral turnout, and my feelings for his, represented by his statements, are shared in the thread a few days ago between myself and Jetoni.
As far as our back and forth comments go, I hold fast to the "we're all Americans" statement from before. The fact that we and other live in the same place but have widely different opinions that cannot really trump any others is a testament to the diversity of ideas here, is it not?
“Only five or six people voted in some polling stations, but they made it look like there had been a hundred. There are 123,000 Serbian voters on the voting lists, but less than 8,000 voted ,which is about five to six percent, including other ethnic minorities, and that cannot be regarded as a success,” the Kosovo minister pointed out.
Yes Mr Dell, wow a 5% turnout from Serbs. Yes, democracy is flourishing alright.
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
(Ardian, 17 November 2009 20:07)
Haven't you hard the news, no passports needed. The coolies were put back in their place :)
Some of you seem to imply that the UN is the ultimate authority and that nations are subject to it. Regardless of the UN's rules, whether or not Kosovo is a member of the UN, or any other criteria, the United States has recognized Kosovo. Consequently, the ambassador is acting properly by trying to ensure the stability and viability of Kosovo. In the eyes of the US (which the ambassador represents), Serbia no longer has any say in Kosovo, since Kosovo is now independent, and there is no reason for further negotiations. Don't expect the ambassador to take a different stance than the official position of his country.
The USA and NATO created a Frankenstein's Monster with Kosovo. The only "Democracy" in Kosovo is the ethnic Albanian majority controlling the non Albanian minority and making major decisions for the non ALbanian minority without any permission granted.
. Sometimes it means just the contrary
Ataman, 17 November 2009 12:10)
I am a bit afraid that this sometimes is rather always in today's world where politicians represent the interests of multis and lobbies rather than those of homeland or the avarage citizen let us say Józsi Bá(uncle JOE).Maybe FIDESZ is more inclined towarsds Burger King while MSZP towards MCDonalds (this are of course just some made up examples not reality) but none of them cares about above mentioned Uncle Joe or his wife Kati néni (aunti Kate).Well pürivete life and politics in Hungary.I could write a quite thick book about it.My wanna be fathers and mothers in law have never been able to understand my out of ordinary preferences.They were always afraid that instead of Neckerman Family holidays I took their dauthers to such places as Beirut,Belfast,Turkish Kurdistan or similars.Too much headache for average hungarian intelectual families.
TO SOME POSTERS:
In the real democracy, you are not obliged to vote. You do so ONLY if you want to do so.
Therefore, don't speculate with numbers. Numbers are as they are. 8000 wanted to vote, the rest didn't want to vote. This is DEMOCRACY... We have to respect this...
'Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican ...'
Please - the idea of foreigners deciding who is a true and who is a "pseudoamerican" is more than faintly ridiculous. Mike is an American, I am an American, and like most Americans we share a deep belief in its ideals and a certain scepticism about how they are implemented in practice, although it's obvious we criticize different aspects of its foreign policy. If democracy is going to work, you can't go ruling those with infuriatingly ridiculous ideas as pseudo-members of the group.
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
"Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy"
It is really funny to see the words "Democracy" and "Kosovo" together in one sentence.
Yes, it's the perfect paradise, this holy land of Kosovo, this multi-ethnic wonderstate, this lighthouse of democracy and freedom for the whole balcans... ;-)
Thank you Mr Ambassador,
You stand true to that great American tradition in support of freedom and liberty around the world.
That support as Kosovar Albanians have witnessed, often means that people have to govern their own lives, express themselves freely, and make their own political and economic choices. Support of their own initiatives toward this outcome is usually most welcome and is an appropriate role that respects the underlying value of self-determination inherent in democracy.
"independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"...US Ambassador.
Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Dell but this does not compute.
I really doubt if you are 'the full shilling' to utter such a nonsense as a diplomat.
What the USA and NATO created in Kosovo i Metohija is nothing short of an abomination.
Despite the prolific distribution of US 'brown envelopes', we still see that less than a third of UN member states have recognised this failed entity.
I am convinced that the disrespect shown by Washington, et al, for International Law and disregard for the sovereignty of Nations' territories 'will surely return to haunt them.
Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy
B92
Like it's flourishing in Afganistan.Thaci probably got few tips from Karzai.
The "ambassador" probably forgets that the final status
of kosovo hasn't been agreed by both parties.Until that time comes no UN charter signatory has the right to recognise this illegal entity.
Until then the "ambassador" should refrain from making any comments which hinder the
prospects of any settlement.
You people can say what ever you want, we had free and fair elections.
And we dont care if some persons dont support Kosovo as independent state, what it counts is that US gov supports us.
As for serbia they can have good relationship or bad with kosovo its up to them to chose, we simply dont care.
Some of you seem to imply that the UN is the ultimate authority and that nations are subject to it. Regardless of the UN's rules, whether or not Kosovo is a member of the UN, or any other criteria, the United States has recognized Kosovo. Consequently, the ambassador is acting properly by trying to ensure the stability and viability of Kosovo. In the eyes of the US (which the ambassador represents), Serbia no longer has any say in Kosovo, since Kosovo is now independent, and there is no reason for further negotiations. Don't expect the ambassador to take a different stance than the official position of his country.
Micheal Breathnach, 16 November 2009 18:45)
It depends on prospective and as a Serb it must be hard to see this but I am sure Albanians do not agree with you.
no Democracy is perfect and many people confuse Democracy with Socialism.
Kosovo is in a right path.
You have Russia in your corner they have America
Time will tell for now they have control of majority of the territory and for each day it passes it will be harder for u to get it back not immpossible but harder.
Less than half of Kosovo's population votes, barely 25% of Kosovo's Serbs vote, and Dell says democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo. Clearly my country has sent a delusional fantasist to Pristina.
To all readers, not all us Americans are like this. Please don't stereotype us as halcyonic glue sniffers. The statements this guy makes clearly makes it seem he earned his post by being demoted from something else.
Yep... It's said guy from country which attacked in last 10 years some of independent countries - members of EU, without declaration of war: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and probably prepare attack against Iran.
Mr. Ambassador, what is flourishing nowadays is unemployment - hang on in there from Friday to Friday paycheck, just keep talking, every little nonsense counts...
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
Democracy has become such an empty word, that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
How can democracy flourish when we really don't know what does it really mean?
I don't honestly think that ambassador really believes what he's saying.
When reality doesn't suit US government, they try their usual approach and force words into reality.
But the more they are pushing this approach, the more it is failing.
Compared to Afganistan and Iraq, in Kosovo case at least seemed to work for US government. For a time anyway.
Lately even this front is appearing less then solid. Kosovo as a state seems less viable now, the at the time of UDI declaration.
Even K-Albanias themselves seem like they are fed up with their leaders, faithful clients of Americans.
As for the ambassodor, one should not take much notice of his remarks.
If anything it proves that they are becoming increasingly nervous about the situation into which they trapped themselves by supporting KLA.
One does not speak in a provocative and aggressive manner when he's sure his policies are working.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
Bob, you are too naïve. The US did think before attacking Yu. But they didn't care a bit neither for Serbs nor for Albanians. They only cared about their geopolitical agenda and Milosevic didn't obey their orders. That's why he had to be crushed. So they constructed the whole Kosovo conflict. This is the explanation given by Noam Chomsky and he gives a book written by John Norris and Strobe Talbot from the Bill Clinton administration as source. There were no altruistic reasons for the attack (as stated by mainstream media in the west). The real reasons are revealed in the book that Chomsky quotes from.
""independent Kosovo is a place where democracy is flourishing"
Did anyone see those flying pigs? Dell would have gone back to his fortress-like embassy and rolled on the floor with laughter, saying how dumb are these people to believe all this.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives. I know most teachers are democrates - I have no problem with that - but they also love their country and are loyal to it.
Where do you see your loyalty?
AS for Kosovo there was a good article in the Wall Street Journal of today "In Kosovo, A Peaceful First Vote".
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican who adores certain lobby which completly misleads america.WSJ and the truth .Two different words.Almost as if I gained information from either 168 óra or ATV.Democrates or Republicans.Well the left and right hands of AIPEC.God Bless America.The america of Mikes and other true americans who dare to be critical about current misled america and their brainwashed citizens.
"...Did anyone see those flying pigs?"
Sure. There is a bakery called "When the pigs fly", Boston, USA. Unbelievably good breads! Kind a cute packaging, too. But Dell's "Kosova" statements?
Unpalatable!Poorly made packaging as well.
. Sometimes it means just the contrary
Ataman, 17 November 2009 12:10)
I am a bit afraid that this sometimes is rather always in today's world where politicians represent the interests of multis and lobbies rather than those of homeland or the avarage citizen let us say Józsi Bá(uncle JOE).Maybe FIDESZ is more inclined towarsds Burger King while MSZP towards MCDonalds (this are of course just some made up examples not reality) but none of them cares about above mentioned Uncle Joe or his wife Kati néni (aunti Kate).Well pürivete life and politics in Hungary.I could write a quite thick book about it.My wanna be fathers and mothers in law have never been able to understand my out of ordinary preferences.They were always afraid that instead of Neckerman Family holidays I took their dauthers to such places as Beirut,Belfast,Turkish Kurdistan or similars.Too much headache for average hungarian intelectual families.
I guess since this guy says so it must mean that it is the truth! I mean, he is objective in his conclusion now isn't he? Funny then that Dell couldn't work his magic and make the remaining 135 countries of the world think the same and accept his governments little Frankenstein creation into the UN.
Uncle Sham I see you are at it again. Give the poor people of the world a break for once.Stop misleading and using people for your evil means and ends.
Where do you see your loyalty?
(Joe, 17 November 2009 02:04)
If I understand you correctly, you expect me to be loyal to US administration, to Putin and to MSZP. And since FIDESZ will likely win next, I should be loyal to FIDESZ.
Unfortunately I am NOT loyal to any I just mention because I happen to have different ideas - be them good or bad. Liking your home country does not mean liking the government it does have. Sometimes it means just the contrary.
Going one step further: mixing private life (family, friends) with politics is IMO sick. For instance, the entire family of my wife is active protestant and devoted FIDESZ-follower. I am neither and it does not make much difference for me or them.
Not too many Americans are like you either. Regardless of the Administration - republican or democrate - you never stopped dumping on your country and its representatives.
Where do you see your loyalty?
Mike is a true american, but also an american who thinks, unlike some other americans who support bombings of countries that do not threat USA. Loyalty is good but we have to use our brains and think also.
'Mike is a true american you are a pseudoamerican ...'
Please - the idea of foreigners deciding who is a true and who is a "pseudoamerican" is more than faintly ridiculous. Mike is an American, I am an American, and like most Americans we share a deep belief in its ideals and a certain scepticism about how they are implemented in practice, although it's obvious we criticize different aspects of its foreign policy. If democracy is going to work, you can't go ruling those with infuriatingly ridiculous ideas as pseudo-members of the group.
It seems democracy is about who has the most babies.
Not so much democracy, more demographics.
It seems law does not matter - that can be changed. Ownership does not matter - theft can always be legalised.
Such is the conception of Kosovo.
I suspect that it will be a still birth or at least a conjoined child. To call it a country in its own right is ridiculous and wrong.
The US rewarded years of ethnic cleansing. The Albanians wanted Serbs out - not 'baddy' Serbs but decent people who were pressured to leave so that there could be a monoethnic Albanian state formed.
The US thinks Milosevic was the only baddy - if the US thinks at all.
Don't talk nonsense about 'democracy' in Kosovo - let all the evicted Serbs from the last forty years vote too, then maybe there would be some honesty in the claim of 'democracy'.
Joe, you and I, along with Ataman, Amer, Jetoni, Matthew, and others, are *all* Americans, so learn to share this vast land you currently call home. Classifying people as "true" or "pseudo" is a bit authoritarian for my tastes and smacks of the faux patriotism many Americans have and don't know what to do with. Unflinching loyalty to a country in the absence of cognitive thinking is the kind of stuff dictators we've fought repeatedly to overthrow like to employ. So while I recognize you as representative of a sizeable, and vocal, group of people in America, pardon me if I don't accept your brand of jackbooting patriotism.
Perhaps if our simple-minded "ambassador" to Kosovo rephrased his giddy statement, he might be taken more seriously.
Democracy is "growing" in Kosovo? - Sure
Democracy is "spreading" in Kosovo? - Why not?
Democracy is "flourishing" in Kosovo? - Sorry, I took the red pill years ago to realize this is propaganda, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
For democracy to "flourish", democracy needs to be
a) consolidated
b) actively pursued
c) represented by at least two distinctive opposition parties
d) experienced party turnover at least once
e) inclusive of all its citizens
f) embrace not just electoral procedures, but an acceptance of social justice, multi-ethnic co-existence, and civic co-fraternity
g) embrace at least one democratic cultural narrative that shuns chauvanistic ethnocentrism
We've a long way to go in Kosovo before any of this is realized, so to say that democracy is "flourishing" when two pro-American lapdog parties competed, and by village-bey's account (which I agree with) notes there are no differences between the two except who's in charge at the top, is more than premature. Democracy is "growing", but critically still "rudimentary" in Kosovo. Just like it is in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for Washington to continusouly back the pro-American side, rather than the pro-democratic side, only contributes to a sense of voter apathy and citizen disengagement from the democratic process.
“Only five or six people voted in some polling stations, but they made it look like there had been a hundred. There are 123,000 Serbian voters on the voting lists, but less than 8,000 voted ,which is about five to six percent, including other ethnic minorities, and that cannot be regarded as a success,” the Kosovo minister pointed out.
Yes Mr Dell, wow a 5% turnout from Serbs. Yes, democracy is flourishing alright.
wow local elections and I hear they will require Serbs to get their passports ready when going inside Kosovo. How can Serbia take this? You guys should revolt or something? Wait, you are already doing that in the north, I guess you need better revolts or something...
(Ardian, 17 November 2009 20:07)
Haven't you hard the news, no passports needed. The coolies were put back in their place :)
TO SOME POSTERS:
In the real democracy, you are not obliged to vote. You do so ONLY if you want to do so.
Therefore, don't speculate with numbers. Numbers are as they are. 8000 wanted to vote, the rest didn't want to vote. This is DEMOCRACY... We have to respect this...
The USA and NATO created a Frankenstein's Monster with Kosovo. The only "Democracy" in Kosovo is the ethnic Albanian majority controlling the non Albanian minority and making major decisions for the non ALbanian minority without any permission granted.
-- Having read over your comments again, I see that this was the crux of your post, and the issue of "true" vs "pseudo" Americans or whatever was brought up by your detractors, not by you. Obviously you and I are "loyal" to the same country we call home, but we differ on where that loyalty is placed. As the consummate academic, I scrutinize our politics far more, particularly in the way we market it abroad, which I sadly feel is little more than national self-interest thinly disguised as pre-packaged democracy. But don't worry. I’m not those tragically hip academics who write books on stuff only 5 other people care about. I'll still drink a pint of beer any day over a $4 latte, read Zakaria or Friedman over Chomsky (actually never cared for him), and enjoy a steak and potato dinner than anything "vegetarian", so I'm not *that* irredeemable :) Think of me as a cantankerous Goldwater/Paul conservative!
Still, you've got to wonder at the statements from Mr. Dell and whether they're a sign of his elementary understanding of democracy, or he's just talking down to a bunch of people he's set incredibly low standards for. Either way, I'm offended at his understanding of democracy and his threshold of electoral turnout, and my feelings for his, represented by his statements, are shared in the thread a few days ago between myself and Jetoni.
As far as our back and forth comments go, I hold fast to the "we're all Americans" statement from before. The fact that we and other live in the same place but have widely different opinions that cannot really trump any others is a testament to the diversity of ideas here, is it not?
"Democracy flourishing in Kosovo, says U.S. envoy"
It is really funny to see the words "Democracy" and "Kosovo" together in one sentence.
Yes, it's the perfect paradise, this holy land of Kosovo, this multi-ethnic wonderstate, this lighthouse of democracy and freedom for the whole balcans... ;-)
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