New editors for Macedonian encyclopedia

The Macedonian nation is the reuslt of the futile, costly and counerproductive conflict between Serbia and Bulgaria. For the first post WWII generation the Macedonian identity was a welcome solution. It was understood as a simple "neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian". That is a normal development. R. Mesner once said: "I am an Italian citizen, but I am not an Italiam. I am neither Austrian, nor German. I am a South Tyrolian."
The Macedonian tragedy came two generations later when the young people who were brought up as Macedonians started to search for ancient roots of their nation. Now ther look rediculous from the outside but are really confused and perplexed. Trying to preserve their fragile identity they found themselves in conflict with all their neighbours.

The VMRO government is petty nationalistic and engage in immature gesture politics. They have brought their country backwards in the last four years.

Gruevski & VMRO are about power and to get that they have worked out how to use nationalism (some would say jingoism) as a lowest common denominator.The Encyclopedia is one of them.

Identity and language are also important in Gruevskis false crusade.
The Fyromian language is the West-Bulgarian dialect artificially Serbised lexically in the late 40s of the past century, by Tito with Stalin's blessing - yes the "Macedonian nation" was a Comintern invention, up until then all authors themselves claimed to write in Bulgarian - from Clement of Ohrid (Kliment Ohridski) to Venko Markovski.

As for Fyromian claim being free to choose any name one wants, this is really not true when the name is in use, and the name choice implies heritage rights.

People in the West might not be conscious of all this history but we can make sure the people in the region most definitely are .

I knew they will be sacked sooner rather then later.
Good riddence.

I give Macedonia less than 5 years before the Government majority is Albanian and less than 10 years before the population majority is Albanian at about that time you will see large numbers of Christians immigrating or trying to emigrate to either Serbia or Bulgaria. Kosovo will remain in limbo and a black hole, RS in Bosnia will join with Serbia the Bosnian Muslims will all but swallow alive what little Croatian population is left in the remaining Muslim –Croatian federation thus forming a majority Muslim Government and becoming very close partners with the majority Muslim Governments in Macedonia and Albania thus creating a Muslim golden triangle. Montenegro will be a none-country neither here nor there just a piece of land, a bridge if you will in this triangle and unfortunately Serbia will be smack in the middle of it all.

Well done USA/EU.

“I give Macedonia less than 5 years before the Government majority is Albanian and less than 10 years before the population majority is Albanian at about that time you will see large numbers of Christians immigrating or trying to emigrate to either Serbia or Bulgaria. Kosovo will remain in limbo and a black hole, RS in Bosnia will join with Serbia the Bosnian Muslims will all but swallow alive what little Croatian population is left in the remaining Muslim –Croatian federation thus forming a majority Muslim Government and becoming very close partners with the majority Muslim Governments in Macedonia and Albania thus creating a Muslim golden triangle. Montenegro will be a none-country neither here nor there just a piece of land, a bridge if you will in this triangle and unfortunately Serbia will be smack in the middle of it all.”

From all comments presented here, the one above seems to be not only totally out of the topic but also very dangerous in the terms of a long time nationalist point of view coming as usually from pseudo emigrants outside respective countries Serbia and Macedonia.

This kind of comment is the continuity of the Slavic propaganda (as ethnic background) pumped up since 90’ which became indeed the reason for the bloody wars in the last decades mainly initiated by the Serbs. Still after almost 20 years they try to justify what they did despite the multidimensional defeat in all wars.

The MK encyclopedia was unacceptable not only from Albanian side but also BG and Greece due to the great amount of disinformation. The Albanians wanted only the truth nothing more and nothing less. But that issue is seen as malicious intention of creating some fictional Muslim governments or some kind of overtake of Muslims against Christians. I haven’t heard in my life about Muslim or Christian government simply because such term does not exist. Such predictions just about taking over the government in some years just represent the current status of many rotten minds in Serbian or Macedonian society. The governments take care of all citizens despite the religious background and only here can bee seen division of certain categories serving the actual and prospective efforts to undermine the secure path of Kosovo toward the future and the peace in Balkans.

RS will never become state simply because it was created on blood of thousand innocent Bosnians victims of criminals wanted in Hague. It never existed before and the genocide can not be justified and rewarded with another state. As for Kosovo their people are happier than never with freedom. Everything else will come after as to Kosovo is given all necessary support to move forward. Kosovo has many opened doors other than Serbia which is surrounded by not so friendly neighbors because of the past.

And last but not least let me remind you something. You interpretation of Christians Serbs or Macedonians against Muslims has proven to be the greatest failure in your existence. The bombs of Christian countries will be remembered from many generations and the history. The message was very clear. The religious card that you played (and are playing) won’t help you and your rotten mind to undermine the struggle for freedom and justice of the people who have so much suffered under your antagonistic regimes. You are doing us Albanians great favor if you continue right in this way of thinking.

Just look at Greece itself,their population is already more than 40% Albanian.Those who denie Macedonias existance,history will bite them.
(Peter, 8 November 2009 16:04)

Peter
Have u ever been in Greece? Albanians are not 40% of the populationn, they are less than 10%. But i know some other neighboring country that has 25% Albanians which participate in the parliament and influence important decisions of the state. So who is bitten here?

It doesn't take much to realize: 1. Albanians will totally control MK in 10 years 2. had Serbian Albanians been smarter, they could've controlled Serbia the same way if they'd participated in the political process 3. Serbian Albs will eventualy rebel against EULEX. Leonidas is right about VMRO & I hope that as Serbia continues to re-integrate KosMet via Russia's control of the EU, our prestige will inspire Macedonians to reunite with Serbia & take back control of their province.

The West trying to control what goes into the history books to suit themselves. In my opinion, get the hell out of the Balkans, and and concentrate on the problems of your own counties - which are many. I'm sure the Macedonians can take care of their own history books.

Leonidas, if you opinion becomes the official position of Greece and Serbia, the Balkan league (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Montenegro) could be restaured for the benefit of everybody!

Leonida,

playing the bulgarian card is so common in today's "political correct" greek views.

No nation can "artificially" change their language in 40 years.

How about pronunciation ?
How come FYROMians say
Mleko, Levo, Desno just like Serbs, while eastern bulgarians say Mljako, Ljavo, Dijasno, etc??

To give a clue, i would advise you to visit western bulgaria some time (Sofia would suffice) and compare the local "dialect" with the official (eastern) bulgarian.

FYROM's cultural affinity, is clearly with their north and their east.

There are traces of FYROM folklore songs from 18th century, which demonstrated the use of a full 5-declensions case system.
Was it Tito's "intervention" as well?
Ever considered the fact that FYROM got bulgarized during the Exharchate ?

Anyways, pronunciations as you know, and i know and everybody knows cannot be altered that easily...
And FYROM's pronunciation of words is 100% Serbian (just like western bulgarian)

Leonidas, if you opinion becomes the official position of Greece and Serbia, the Balkan league (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Montenegro) could be restaured for the benefit of everybody!
(BG, 7 November 2009 13:54)

Absolutely. What you say makes a lot of sense within the context of increasing Turkish influence in Bosnia and Fyrom.

Pyros

My view of Fyrom being a splinter Bulgarian group is backed by the archives of the Bulgarian goverment and the communist party.

Former Bulgarian president Zikov clearly states that Fyrom was the creation of antagonisms between Serbia and Bulgaria vis a vis Russia.

It also suffices to say VMRO
nationalists believe that the fact that their country has been recognized a number of countries under its constitutional name is a validation of their claim on ancient Macedonian history.

This is the reason why the issue has been festering for 18 years and one which the Greeks cannot and won't back down.We'll see that through no matter what it takes.

How about pronunciation ?
How come FYROMians say
Mleko, Levo, Desno just like Serbs, while eastern bulgarians say Mljako, Ljavo, Dijasno, etc??

In Eastern Serbia they pronoce Reka, sneg.. in Western Serbia they prononce it rjeka, snjeg... It is still the same language.
All over the territory of Bulgaria and Macedonia there was inclanation and after a common development the cases almost droped out. There were quite a few new words introduced in Macedoniam but the grammar and the phonetics remain practically identical.
Playng Bulgarian card... It is time Serbia and Greece realise two things.
1. they are not neighbouring nations. To want a common border means only an alienation of Bulgaria.
2. This is dangerous to everybody. Without the alience with Bulgaria the Muslim forces on the Balkans become dangerously strong!

BG
in WHOLE Serbia they SNEG/REKA,etc... and maybe in Bosnian cities like Bijeljina (or Beljina as Srbijanci call it)

BG, i guess you are not familiar with Serbian dialects, the slavomakedonian being one of them.
If you still have objections, just watch Veliki Brat over B92.
Violeta and Kristina are from Skoplje and can communicate just fine with their Serbian friends from all over YU.

is this edition going to come with some pop up pages or a poster of eliza dushku to please the albanians?

Bulgarians are a very nice nation,
BUT
a) the constant expansionist policy against FYROM will not acheieve much
b) the claims of the Serbian so called "western highlands" surely does not help to view bulgarian positions positively

_ Bulgaria NEVER had expansionist policy towards Macedonia. It never sent colonists there, every time it was forced to withdraw thousands of refugees fled! About a quarter of Sofia’s population is formed by refugees from MC. The Greek RED LINE is Macedonia not to claim their ancient history. Our RED LINE is NOT to proclaim historical figures that have explicitly stated and published their Bulgarian consciousness as ethnic Macedonians. Simple as that.
As for the Western Borderlands, NOBODY in Bulgaria wants territorial changes. The Bulgarians in the Western Borderlands are officially recognized as such, although some attempts to declare them as "Shops" were made. All we want is the border to become invisible and that will happen when Serbia joins the EU.

Greece and Bulgaria have been bitter enemies for 13 centuries. There were classical acts like blinding soldiers, massacres etc. But in the last 30 years after a treaty was signed that even if NATO and then Warsaw Pact went to war, the two countries would NOT fight each other, an incredible reconciliation is taking place. Thousands of people now cross the border everyday. In Sandanski in the restaurants you have menus in Greek and in the Kavalla they have menus in Bulgarian. Believ me, EU is working!

Present encyclopedia does not tell all on the question of Macedonias relations with our neighbours.In the matter of language,Serbia and Bulgaria objected to the Greeks for recognising the Macedonian language as being neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,but that it is totally different and independent language.The Cyrilic alphabet is being used by more than 300 million people with a slight different letters from the original.Every alphabet in the world has gone through some changes.In the matter of Macedonia becoming with Albanian majority,In fact, Macedonia has no worries of this scenario.Just look at Greece itself,their population is already more than 40% Albanian.Those who denie Macedonias existance,history will bite them.

Leonida,

no offense to our BG friend here, but:

a) Slavomakedonians are not Bulgarians
b) A greater Bulgaria, as basic knowledge of History shows (Action of the Exharchate in our part of Makedonia and Thesaloniki, WWI, WWII for starter), will be a much much bigger problem for Greece than a small country with friendly people (FYROM) no matter what their enforced leaders are forced to say. No real slavomakedonian believes the Alexander the great fairy tales.

Slavomakedonians are trapped:
1) their natural place Srbija, thus the name Stara Srbija as they were called, is the international scape goat, a country which everybody hates, so its not an option
2) Bulgaria is not so popular in FYROM due to the unpleasant past occupations and aggression(Turkish occupation, Exharchate, WWI, WWII)

So, they are trapped to be a lonely nation with no friends.
(apparently Greece cannot be considered as such).

A note to Bulgarian friends:
Bulgarians are a very nice nation,
BUT
a) the constant expansionist policy against FYROM will not acheieve much
b) the claims of the Serbian so called "western highlands" surely does not help to view bulgarian positions positively.
Anyways, west owns all Bulgarian economy, so they do as they please in the politics as well.

I knew they will be sacked sooner rather then later.
Good riddence.

“I give Macedonia less than 5 years before the Government majority is Albanian and less than 10 years before the population majority is Albanian at about that time you will see large numbers of Christians immigrating or trying to emigrate to either Serbia or Bulgaria. Kosovo will remain in limbo and a black hole, RS in Bosnia will join with Serbia the Bosnian Muslims will all but swallow alive what little Croatian population is left in the remaining Muslim –Croatian federation thus forming a majority Muslim Government and becoming very close partners with the majority Muslim Governments in Macedonia and Albania thus creating a Muslim golden triangle. Montenegro will be a none-country neither here nor there just a piece of land, a bridge if you will in this triangle and unfortunately Serbia will be smack in the middle of it all.”

From all comments presented here, the one above seems to be not only totally out of the topic but also very dangerous in the terms of a long time nationalist point of view coming as usually from pseudo emigrants outside respective countries Serbia and Macedonia.

This kind of comment is the continuity of the Slavic propaganda (as ethnic background) pumped up since 90’ which became indeed the reason for the bloody wars in the last decades mainly initiated by the Serbs. Still after almost 20 years they try to justify what they did despite the multidimensional defeat in all wars.

The MK encyclopedia was unacceptable not only from Albanian side but also BG and Greece due to the great amount of disinformation. The Albanians wanted only the truth nothing more and nothing less. But that issue is seen as malicious intention of creating some fictional Muslim governments or some kind of overtake of Muslims against Christians. I haven’t heard in my life about Muslim or Christian government simply because such term does not exist. Such predictions just about taking over the government in some years just represent the current status of many rotten minds in Serbian or Macedonian society. The governments take care of all citizens despite the religious background and only here can bee seen division of certain categories serving the actual and prospective efforts to undermine the secure path of Kosovo toward the future and the peace in Balkans.

RS will never become state simply because it was created on blood of thousand innocent Bosnians victims of criminals wanted in Hague. It never existed before and the genocide can not be justified and rewarded with another state. As for Kosovo their people are happier than never with freedom. Everything else will come after as to Kosovo is given all necessary support to move forward. Kosovo has many opened doors other than Serbia which is surrounded by not so friendly neighbors because of the past.

And last but not least let me remind you something. You interpretation of Christians Serbs or Macedonians against Muslims has proven to be the greatest failure in your existence. The bombs of Christian countries will be remembered from many generations and the history. The message was very clear. The religious card that you played (and are playing) won’t help you and your rotten mind to undermine the struggle for freedom and justice of the people who have so much suffered under your antagonistic regimes. You are doing us Albanians great favor if you continue right in this way of thinking.

It doesn't take much to realize: 1. Albanians will totally control MK in 10 years 2. had Serbian Albanians been smarter, they could've controlled Serbia the same way if they'd participated in the political process 3. Serbian Albs will eventualy rebel against EULEX. Leonidas is right about VMRO & I hope that as Serbia continues to re-integrate KosMet via Russia's control of the EU, our prestige will inspire Macedonians to reunite with Serbia & take back control of their province.

Present encyclopedia does not tell all on the question of Macedonias relations with our neighbours.In the matter of language,Serbia and Bulgaria objected to the Greeks for recognising the Macedonian language as being neither Serbian nor Bulgarian,but that it is totally different and independent language.The Cyrilic alphabet is being used by more than 300 million people with a slight different letters from the original.Every alphabet in the world has gone through some changes.In the matter of Macedonia becoming with Albanian majority,In fact, Macedonia has no worries of this scenario.Just look at Greece itself,their population is already more than 40% Albanian.Those who denie Macedonias existance,history will bite them.

The VMRO government is petty nationalistic and engage in immature gesture politics. They have brought their country backwards in the last four years.

Gruevski & VMRO are about power and to get that they have worked out how to use nationalism (some would say jingoism) as a lowest common denominator.The Encyclopedia is one of them.

Identity and language are also important in Gruevskis false crusade.
The Fyromian language is the West-Bulgarian dialect artificially Serbised lexically in the late 40s of the past century, by Tito with Stalin's blessing - yes the "Macedonian nation" was a Comintern invention, up until then all authors themselves claimed to write in Bulgarian - from Clement of Ohrid (Kliment Ohridski) to Venko Markovski.

As for Fyromian claim being free to choose any name one wants, this is really not true when the name is in use, and the name choice implies heritage rights.

People in the West might not be conscious of all this history but we can make sure the people in the region most definitely are .

Leonidas, if you opinion becomes the official position of Greece and Serbia, the Balkan league (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Montenegro) could be restaured for the benefit of everybody!

The West trying to control what goes into the history books to suit themselves. In my opinion, get the hell out of the Balkans, and and concentrate on the problems of your own counties - which are many. I'm sure the Macedonians can take care of their own history books.

I give Macedonia less than 5 years before the Government majority is Albanian and less than 10 years before the population majority is Albanian at about that time you will see large numbers of Christians immigrating or trying to emigrate to either Serbia or Bulgaria. Kosovo will remain in limbo and a black hole, RS in Bosnia will join with Serbia the Bosnian Muslims will all but swallow alive what little Croatian population is left in the remaining Muslim –Croatian federation thus forming a majority Muslim Government and becoming very close partners with the majority Muslim Governments in Macedonia and Albania thus creating a Muslim golden triangle. Montenegro will be a none-country neither here nor there just a piece of land, a bridge if you will in this triangle and unfortunately Serbia will be smack in the middle of it all.

Well done USA/EU.

The Macedonian nation is the reuslt of the futile, costly and counerproductive conflict between Serbia and Bulgaria. For the first post WWII generation the Macedonian identity was a welcome solution. It was understood as a simple "neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian". That is a normal development. R. Mesner once said: "I am an Italian citizen, but I am not an Italiam. I am neither Austrian, nor German. I am a South Tyrolian."
The Macedonian tragedy came two generations later when the young people who were brought up as Macedonians started to search for ancient roots of their nation. Now ther look rediculous from the outside but are really confused and perplexed. Trying to preserve their fragile identity they found themselves in conflict with all their neighbours.

How about pronunciation ?
How come FYROMians say
Mleko, Levo, Desno just like Serbs, while eastern bulgarians say Mljako, Ljavo, Dijasno, etc??

In Eastern Serbia they pronoce Reka, sneg.. in Western Serbia they prononce it rjeka, snjeg... It is still the same language.
All over the territory of Bulgaria and Macedonia there was inclanation and after a common development the cases almost droped out. There were quite a few new words introduced in Macedoniam but the grammar and the phonetics remain practically identical.
Playng Bulgarian card... It is time Serbia and Greece realise two things.
1. they are not neighbouring nations. To want a common border means only an alienation of Bulgaria.
2. This is dangerous to everybody. Without the alience with Bulgaria the Muslim forces on the Balkans become dangerously strong!

is this edition going to come with some pop up pages or a poster of eliza dushku to please the albanians?

Leonida,

playing the bulgarian card is so common in today's "political correct" greek views.

No nation can "artificially" change their language in 40 years.

How about pronunciation ?
How come FYROMians say
Mleko, Levo, Desno just like Serbs, while eastern bulgarians say Mljako, Ljavo, Dijasno, etc??

To give a clue, i would advise you to visit western bulgaria some time (Sofia would suffice) and compare the local "dialect" with the official (eastern) bulgarian.

FYROM's cultural affinity, is clearly with their north and their east.

There are traces of FYROM folklore songs from 18th century, which demonstrated the use of a full 5-declensions case system.
Was it Tito's "intervention" as well?
Ever considered the fact that FYROM got bulgarized during the Exharchate ?

Anyways, pronunciations as you know, and i know and everybody knows cannot be altered that easily...
And FYROM's pronunciation of words is 100% Serbian (just like western bulgarian)

Leonida,

no offense to our BG friend here, but:

a) Slavomakedonians are not Bulgarians
b) A greater Bulgaria, as basic knowledge of History shows (Action of the Exharchate in our part of Makedonia and Thesaloniki, WWI, WWII for starter), will be a much much bigger problem for Greece than a small country with friendly people (FYROM) no matter what their enforced leaders are forced to say. No real slavomakedonian believes the Alexander the great fairy tales.

Slavomakedonians are trapped:
1) their natural place Srbija, thus the name Stara Srbija as they were called, is the international scape goat, a country which everybody hates, so its not an option
2) Bulgaria is not so popular in FYROM due to the unpleasant past occupations and aggression(Turkish occupation, Exharchate, WWI, WWII)

So, they are trapped to be a lonely nation with no friends.
(apparently Greece cannot be considered as such).

A note to Bulgarian friends:
Bulgarians are a very nice nation,
BUT
a) the constant expansionist policy against FYROM will not acheieve much
b) the claims of the Serbian so called "western highlands" surely does not help to view bulgarian positions positively.
Anyways, west owns all Bulgarian economy, so they do as they please in the politics as well.

Leonidas, if you opinion becomes the official position of Greece and Serbia, the Balkan league (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece and Montenegro) could be restaured for the benefit of everybody!
(BG, 7 November 2009 13:54)

Absolutely. What you say makes a lot of sense within the context of increasing Turkish influence in Bosnia and Fyrom.

Pyros

My view of Fyrom being a splinter Bulgarian group is backed by the archives of the Bulgarian goverment and the communist party.

Former Bulgarian president Zikov clearly states that Fyrom was the creation of antagonisms between Serbia and Bulgaria vis a vis Russia.

It also suffices to say VMRO
nationalists believe that the fact that their country has been recognized a number of countries under its constitutional name is a validation of their claim on ancient Macedonian history.

This is the reason why the issue has been festering for 18 years and one which the Greeks cannot and won't back down.We'll see that through no matter what it takes.

BG
in WHOLE Serbia they SNEG/REKA,etc... and maybe in Bosnian cities like Bijeljina (or Beljina as Srbijanci call it)

BG, i guess you are not familiar with Serbian dialects, the slavomakedonian being one of them.
If you still have objections, just watch Veliki Brat over B92.
Violeta and Kristina are from Skoplje and can communicate just fine with their Serbian friends from all over YU.

Bulgarians are a very nice nation,
BUT
a) the constant expansionist policy against FYROM will not acheieve much
b) the claims of the Serbian so called "western highlands" surely does not help to view bulgarian positions positively

_ Bulgaria NEVER had expansionist policy towards Macedonia. It never sent colonists there, every time it was forced to withdraw thousands of refugees fled! About a quarter of Sofia’s population is formed by refugees from MC. The Greek RED LINE is Macedonia not to claim their ancient history. Our RED LINE is NOT to proclaim historical figures that have explicitly stated and published their Bulgarian consciousness as ethnic Macedonians. Simple as that.
As for the Western Borderlands, NOBODY in Bulgaria wants territorial changes. The Bulgarians in the Western Borderlands are officially recognized as such, although some attempts to declare them as "Shops" were made. All we want is the border to become invisible and that will happen when Serbia joins the EU.

Greece and Bulgaria have been bitter enemies for 13 centuries. There were classical acts like blinding soldiers, massacres etc. But in the last 30 years after a treaty was signed that even if NATO and then Warsaw Pact went to war, the two countries would NOT fight each other, an incredible reconciliation is taking place. Thousands of people now cross the border everyday. In Sandanski in the restaurants you have menus in Greek and in the Kavalla they have menus in Bulgarian. Believ me, EU is working!

Just look at Greece itself,their population is already more than 40% Albanian.Those who denie Macedonias existance,history will bite them.
(Peter, 8 November 2009 16:04)

Peter
Have u ever been in Greece? Albanians are not 40% of the populationn, they are less than 10%. But i know some other neighboring country that has 25% Albanians which participate in the parliament and influence important decisions of the state. So who is bitten here?