Tadić expect ICJ decision "in Serbia's favor"

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner".
What are your other choices Mr Tadik?
Of course you act in peaceful manner.We all know what hapend
10 yrs ago.There is no doubt that if Serbia has capability it will use violence.
the think is that They got their lesson.

"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.
------
Another low for Serb commentators...this comment was from 2007! Holland recognizes Kosova

Without new negotiations the partition of Kosovo will be permanent. Negotiations regarding who gets what will take place between Serbia and Eulex. Most likely the areas currently controlled by Serbs will remain under their control and vice verca.

Tadić expect ICJ decision "in Serbia's favor" -> He added "regardless of the ICJ's decision".

What better to summ it up?

Mr Tadic are you begging us albanians to negotiate with you about our future status ? Well it is to late despite the outcome of ICJ ruling. In Kosovo we have our own President,Prime minsiter,Parlament,Institutions and the police and army. We dont need anything from Serbia and we have been in war with Serbia so there is no point to change our independence. We are more than happy with our 62 recognitions and we dont need a seat at the UN right now. Reamamber that US and the strongest EU countrys are on our side and that will not change. Kosovo is independent from Serbia and that is a reality we all have to face, one daý or another.

We will see if Serbia will succeed to be a Eu member without recognizing Kosovo. I depply doubt it.

Bganon.
"... this rubbish about 'we have already had neogitations'. We have NOT had negotiations."

Here we are. President Ahtisari as High Representative of UN spent a lot of time with Albanian and Serbian delegations regarding the Kosovo's status. He heared more than enough the views of both delegations. Negotiations COULD NOT go on for EVER. I just want the Serbian panel here to understand that point. At least THAT IS ALBANIAN POINT OF VIEW. I am preatty sure the overwhelming majority of Albanians would agree with that. Remember guys at some point the negotiations were postponed because of early parliamentary elections in Serbia and the we had the "forced introductions of Serbian Constitution" where Kosovo/a in a laughable way was "sanctioned" part of Serbia while the negotiations were taking place. Some people would like to foolish Albanians and the international communtity BUT these times have gone once and for all.

This is how independent Kosovo is:

"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.

This is certainly a shift away from talk about "imposing" a solution and also carries with it some interesting conditional points: "both parties" need to agree, and any solution has to be both "sustainable" and "possible to implement."

Hidden criticism of Washington in this statement, that U.S. advocates for a unilateral recognition of self-declared independence would then have to be willing to sustain and implement this solution using American resources, rather than making commitments we would then expect Europeans to carry out?"

What will Mr Tadic do if ICJ's decission is not in Serbia's favour?

Will he accept it?

Bganon

I agree with you when you say that you can't claim of having negotiations when the end results are already painted as a foregone conclusion.

I also agree with EA that given how diametrically opposite the views were, there was really little left to negotiate about.

Under these circumstances, I think focusing any future negotiations on status would be like putting the cart before the horse.

In my opinion, the focus should be first on building bridges between the two populations/countries (depending on your point of view) that were pretty much annihilated by the war.
That process has yet to begin.

Bganon, how would you start negotiations, let's say with any of us, when you come to the table saying anything but not independence. We from the other hand will say we want nothing but independence.
Don't you understand that direct talking from such positions is impossible hence the need for the middle man? You still live in a dream world hoping that through "direct negotiations" you could force/trick your will on K-Albanians. Why don't you ask Kostunica about that, since he was one of the members of Serb delegation during troika talks, and who would refuse to even shake hands with K-Albanian representatives.
Tell us what would be the first thing you would say if we, the opposing party ,agreed to meet with you under the only condition that independence is not negotiable. Don't you understand that that you lost Kosova for good after the war? Don't you understand that you forced your will unsuccessfully on K-Albanians for too long( with the help of european powers, but above all Russia) and at the end of the story even these power came to conclusion that there is no other way? Don't you understand that US and Europe did not do a favor to K-Albanians but simply looked after their interest in having a pacified Ballkan and K-Independence was the only way to achieve that?
You probably are pissed that you played your cards so bad with Milosevic but that's your problem. Things change and life goes on. History doesn't stop at 12:44. I am willing to bet my life that there will never be any negotiations with Serbia regarding K-Independence. It has been 3 years that you and some others talk about "real negotiations". 3 years and I never heard any argument/example, anything at all on how are you going to convince K-Albanians to abandon what they died for. Americans are current protectors of Kosova but that's precisely because of your blind nationalism and stupidity that caused 4 wars in a decade.

@Mark:

those "if´s" you cannot stand in bo-the-midwest´s post, could be the "if´s" that let you lose your smile one day.

although I am no fan of Tadic and his comrades, I must admit that they handled the issue quite smart and careful.

Serbia can only win, there is no question about that.

the K-albanian separatists will end up somewhere in the "diaspora"... maybe they will work as bouncers again.

let´s just see what future brings.
we have time. and I am quite confident, since having international law in your back, is a VERY good thing.

let´s talk again, when the US let you down, folks. and that is going to happen, sooner or later.

I love to repeat it, let´s just see what future brings! =)

Bganon,

"negotiations does not consist of one party speaking to a middleman and another speaking to that middleman. That 'middleman' by the way that before he spoke to either party, already decided what would happen. By no definition is this a negotiation."

Read that and hope it will give you some better understanding whether there were negotiations or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree. To rap it up Serbia has said it will never accept Kosovo's independence. On the other side Kosovo/a Albanians have said there will be no return to Serbia.
Your talking about "balanced negotiations" would have been OK if there was not war in Kosova. A classical example would be Vojvodina when we talk about autonomous status. Can you understand what I am trying to explain? I hope yes. We do not have to agree I repeat.

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not.

No Peggy. I meant will he accept ICJ's decission. And I know the answer to that.

From the legal point of view Serbia can not lose. But it would be tremendous pressure on ICJ to go in other direction. I am afraid that this will happen.

However, negotiations conducted by Ahtisaari ("Nobel peace prize winner") never had intentions to negotiate anything. The status was already decided even before negotiations started. Even Albanian journalist (I can not remember his name but he spent time in Belgrade during bombing in 99) has called negotiations "Farsa directed by international community".

Negotiations have never been stopped because of Serbian elections. Ahtisaari only postponed to present plan to Serbs about Kosovo independence and final solution for Serbs because of Serbian elections. They thought that nationalist will win after plan is presented.

Kosovo Albanians never negotiated anything as they already knew what was the outcome of the negotiations.

EA, so please don't talk rubbish. Wherever you from do not pretend that you don't know about negotiations. And if you are Albanian and think that negotiations were fair, then you are lying.

Serbia can't lose, if ICJ rules against, then welcome RS, Northern Kosovo, and later Krajina. Kosovo remains a black hole never to be recognised by Russia and Spain, read block at UN and in EU. As Serbia prospers in EU the Albanians in Kosovo will suddenly discover their Serbian roots in return for EU passports.

Well I like this picture that I have painted. What do you think? A little less red? A little more blue? A few gold stars? What colour do you think the two headed eagle should be?

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner".

What were the other options that Serbia could have taken it. Aside from imposing an embargo which would have been totally counter productive and eventually would have driven out the remaining Serb population, I dont see that Serbia had any other choices.

EU is also playing a game here. It should make it clear to Serbia that you lost this territory once and forever and just move forward. Serbia is not the only state that lost territory due to regional war or political changes. Russia, Germany, France, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Great Britain almost every country in Europe one time or another lost or gained territory due to the conditions on the ground. So please accept the fact you lost and act gracefull instead of prolonging this agony.

"Serbia will insist on continuing negotiations and finding a compromise solution".

"Compromise solution"? That sentence is purely used for political consumtion/demagogy.
Serbia has made it clear that will not recognise Kosova's independence. Kosovar Albanians has made it clear that Kosova's status is a closed chapter and independence from Serbia is unnegotiable.
Where is the point of "compromise"?
Is anyone up there can see any single point on that issue? The Serbian point of "compromise" was raised during the last negotiations but that so called talks can not continue for ever...just to frustrate the Albanians in their legitimate right to know what their future holds. Now after the independence Kosovar Albanians know their future, EU and NATO. It is taking longer than expected. That is true but at least Kosova is free and open country.

What will Mr Tadic do if ICJ's decission is not in Serbia's favour?

Will he accept it?
(SiriusBlack, 3 November 2009 15:20)

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not. Why should he?
What will make him recognize Kosovo?
Russia and China will veto your entry into UN while Cyprus and others will veto your entry into EU. So, tell us, what is Tadic's incentive to recognize Kosovo? ICJ is not going to deliver a verdict which must be obeyed, as you Albanians have said so many times. Whatever happens Kosovo will remain legally Serbian and there is nothing you can do about it anyway. Without majority of the world recognizing you and Russia and China agreeing not to veto, you are in limbo forever.

Watch the rhetoric: UDI --> Kosovo's independence.

I agree with him, mainly because Serbia has a very low threshold for declaring victory.

The only way that Kosovo's Albanians win is if the ICJ emphatically says that the UDI was fine by international law, and that all nations are urged to recognize it. That is not going to happen of course.

On the other hand, if the ICJ rules emphatically in Serbia's favor, the game is over for Kosovo's Albanians. The only thing left them to do then is pick a negotiating team that can best smooth the re-integration of the province into Serbia. This would tough to deal with, but presumably someone on the K-Alb side would have the integrity to stand up and say it's over. This would be suicidal for the time being, but it would happen sooner rather than later, once it's clear that the UDI was a mistake, and that no further recognitions are coming.

A fudge is about the best the K-Albs can get. But this does nothing for them, other than delay negotiations until the province collapses under its own hypocrisy. After a few years in limbo, something would have to give. It certainly wouldn't be Serbia, what with backing from the BRIC countries. If the ICJ does not absolutely approve of the UDI, the K-Albs can't continue to bet that anyone in the U.S. will care about them 10 or 20 years from.

EA call me old fashioned but negotiations does not consist of one party speaking to a middleman and another speaking to that middleman. That 'middleman' by the way that before he spoke to either party, already decided what would happen. By no definition is this a negotiation.

Negotiations is precisely that the parties involved directly negotiate. You cannot talk about negotiations going on for ever before they have even begun. Its absurd and shows a lack of maturity.

In the real world, normally balanced people talk when they have serious problems. Politicians, 'statesmen' are not particularly interested in the lives of ordinary people getting better. No, they are interested in re-election, winning prizes.

So what is it really? That you are afraid that negotiations means you have to give concessions? Again, welcome to the real world. Compromise is a fact of life and its what people do when they disagree but must live together.

Yes politicians and the media (owned by some of the same politicians) have an interest in generating scare stories to frighten Kosovo Albanians into opposing direct talks.

That doesn't mean you have to support the politics of infantilism and manipulation.

BTW if the position was reversed I would still argue that Serbs must come to the negotiating table.

EA pointing me to a wiki page does not change the fact that no direct negotiations were held, that the 'mediator' in fact did not want to negotiate but to impose his plan upon both sides.

Now in the medium term perhaps somebody needs to impose a plan that neither side will like, if they are unwilling to do it themselves. But in order for that to happen both sides must meet and negotiate directly.

Now I suspect you don't have much knowledge of diplomacy. You are utterly wrong in thinking that there is no point in meeting because we have opposing positions and others will continue to suffer because of your obstructive view.

Then you back down a little and say well perhaps we could talk - if there hadn't been war. Hello? The very fact that there was war means that negotiations are imperative. If you look at case studies of conflict around the world you will see that unresolved conflicts are more likely to result in war in the future. Do you want that for Kosovo?

Do you not see how that selfish 'I'm alright jack, I've got my UDI' attitude to negotiations harms Albanians and Serbs in the future?

OK there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree but the fact is that whether you will admit it or not, your position is the completely wrong one to take.

Butnegotiations will resume, the only question is when. It would just be nice if we could for once start this process ourselves, rather than relying on the internationals to impose a solution and themselves upon us.

With the current Court Boris is too optimistic. I guess it will be a solution like OSCE Commission made over Georgia. They said that Georgia was the aggressor while Russia used exceeded force to defend the civilians. Now both sides say that they enjoy Europe’s support.

Same will happen after we have the ICJ solution. They cannot condemn Serbs cause formally they are right. And they cannot condemn the Americans cause for the time being they are too strong and influential.

This point that the Albanian camp are making that Tadic had no choice but to make a peaceful response.

The point is that Tadic and his politics represents another way from violence. A battle by negotiation. OK some of that is demagogy, but the point is to fundamentally support diplomacy as a way to find a lasting solution.

EA et all. Yes the Serbian and Kosovo Albanian positions are diametrically opposed. But that is not a reason why negotiations should not be held. There are many issues that will help real people. Extreme examples follow but this is the kind of thing you may get; Unofically Serbia lets Kosovo authorities know details about a mass grave of Albanians, unoficially in response Kosovo Albanian party leader passes information regarding the sale of organs ie to knock out a rival Kosovo Albanian party leader. Perhaps neither of these stories could be true. But the point is that the victims and their relatives may benefit.

And I wish that this rubbish about 'we have already had neogitations'. We have NOT had negotiations.

Now if you are happy then fine be against negotiations. However, the fact is that neither Serbs nor Albanians are happy. This isn't about your right to feel satisfied about UDI, this is about the right of people who live in Kosovo to have a normal life.

On that note I would remind everybody that its these people who should be in our thoughts - not politicians, the media, the corrupt and their priorities.

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner

Because Serbia could not react in another manner.NATO is in Kosovo.When you had the power we saw how peaceful you reacted.

Why do you keep preaching about respecting international law when you say that you will not respect the verdict of ICJ if it goes Albanians way?

Whether you agree with Tadic or not, the probable scenario would be that Serbia, Kosovo, and maybe Albania would all join as a "package deal" if at all. I would be willing to bet that most EU members know all too well that separately, any of the three would be quite "veto happy" when voting on whether the "enemy" can join.

As far as Serbia's recognition of Kosovo being a pre-requisite for entering the EU, that would be a double-edged sword for the Albanians too. I can easily imagine Slovakia, Cyprus, Spain vetoing Kosovo on Serbia's behalf. Some may hope that Slovakia and Cyprus can be arm twisted into not vetoing, but I doubt the same can be said for Spain and Greece.

In the end, I realize many of the Serbian and Albanian posters may not like to hear this, but as far as joining the EU is concerned, we're very likely going to sink or swim together.

midwest_bo

You got to many IF-s in your post.

miri do you think you are unique in the history of conflict?

Why is it that Kosovo does not require negotiations, when clearly there are so many issues to solve?

You don't believe there will ever be negotiations? Well people used to firmly believe that the earth was flat. Officially or unoficially there will be negotiations. I mean I bet you would even deny that there were negotiations under Milosevic? Imagine that I would have never touched Milosevic with a barge pole but Kosovo Albanians were having secret meetings with Serbian emissiaries behind your back. Of course it was not at the highest level (to my knowledge) but it happened.

So you would deal with Milosevic but not the current Serbian government? Bang goes the moral argument then.

The first thing I'd say if I was a Serbian representative meeting Albanians for direct talks 'its high time, let us resolve the issues for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo'.

Of course if you told me that independence is not negotiable then you would need our cooperation for Serb dominated parts of Kosovo - unless you, like Milosevic, think the fist is better.

I can understand how some Albanians never felt like equal citizens in Jugoslavija. Look at the name 'the land of south slavs'. I can understand that in certain periods of history, most recently since 1989 Albanians felt repressed and eventually completely disenfranchised. But I also understand that the period from 1974 - 1989 was one of growth for many Albanian families. It was in this period that Serbs felt that they had become second class citizens in Kosovo.

You see Miri with me, you get the story without the lies and sweeping generalisations. Perhaps my approach is laughable to some Albanians such as yourself, but I'm willing to bet that other Albanians would grasp the olive branch as a historical chance to lay this issue to bed. Life is too short. Of course we can hammer this out, if you keep reminding yourself it will benefit your people and their future.

As far as emotive language is concerned 'abandoning what they died for' how about this.. 'how about preventing more people dying in the future'. Knowing Kosovo's history you are prepared to fool yourself into thinking that it will never happen again and things in an independent Kosovo will be peaceful. There are serious unresolved issues and I would say that without negotiation some form of conflict, including deaths are inevitable.

You think that is a fantasy? Or you are willing to let more die (whether those deaths are Serb or Albanian, whether the fault is Serb or Albanian) for your dream of an independent Kosovo?

Ment I anticipate a big drive on the Serbian side in the wake of the ICJ decision for re-opened talks. The majority in Serbia wil support this. On the Albanian side a majority will remain warily against but I think the Albanian leaders will sanction such talks. The massive sticking point would be whether the talks are called status talks or not. Albanians will refuse such named talks outright. However, I do believe that status talks will be held - in other words the status of majority Serb parts of Kosovo will be discussed.

Of course it may be that both sides decide it might be more sensible (if they are serious about a solution) to make unofficial negotiations. To take it away from the glare of the media and other politicians seeking to make cheap political points.

A lot of ifs and buts but I firmly believe that negotiation is the only way forward.

"miri do you think you are unique in the history of conflict? "

No I don't and that's what I am contemplating here. Kosova is as unique as Serbia when it gained its independence a century ago by breaking the "international law" of its time.

"You don't believe there will ever be negotiations? Well people used to firmly believe that the earth was flat"

This is just a cliche and no need for answer. My writing professor always taught me to avoid cliches like a plague.


"The first thing I'd say if I was a Serbian representative meeting Albanians for direct talks 'its high time, let us resolve the issues for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo'.

Of course if you told me that independence is not negotiable then you would need our cooperation for Serb dominated parts of Kosovo "

Isn't this what K-Government has been asking all along via good neighborly cooperation? But that's not what you are interested now, right? I repeat, you want to talk only about status and we want to talk about anything but status.

"...I'm willing to bet that other Albanians would grasp the olive branch as a historical chance to lay this issue to bed. "

And here is the same question again that you can't answer. Why would those Albanians that you mention would have any interest in discussing Status with you? What would you give to them? You don't seem to understand at all what the other side feels. We feel we have achieved the maximum that could be achieved under circumstances. Any other "negotiations" would give us less. The only way to force us back to negotiations would be to convince US and EU, the allies that support K-Independence but its everyone's conviction that this process has already expired. Why? because negotiations already took place and led to nothing. Repeating endless that there were never "real negotiations" it's not going to change an iota. At the end of the day Serb government never provided, even to this day a convincing plan on how to integrate K-Albanians into Serb society. Sorry to say but that's where your diplomacy sucks. Please, there are plenty analysis on the web that explain why western powers took the decision that they took. You can stubbornly insist that you want to talk about the status again. It ain't going to happened unless you convince US and EU while we have to convince Russia to withdraw its veto. The battle for Kosova has always been the battle to convince the west and this time you lost and we won thanks to your consecutive governments for being so gullible.

"As far as emotive language is concerned 'abandoning what they died for' how about this.. 'how about preventing more people dying in the future'. Knowing Kosovo's history you are prepared to fool yourself into thinking that it will never happen again and things in an independent Kosovo will be peaceful. There are serious unresolved issues and I would say that without negotiation some form of conflict, including deaths are inevitable. "

Bganon, I sincerely respect your moderate attitude but the facts on the ground are such that Ballkans is not currently threatened by Serbia anymore. Forcing negotiations on the presumptions that on the future another conflict might explode is very lame. The 90% Albanian make up of the population in Kosova suggests that this is highly unlikely. Unfortunately Milosevic was your last chance to make Kosova yours and it ended in disgrace.

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not.

No Peggy. I meant will he accept ICJ's decission. And I know the answer to that.
(SiriusBlack, 4 November 2009 14:30)

Sirius, recognition of Kosovo is exactly what ICJ decision would be if they said it was legal and Serbia accepted their decsion. I don't get what else you are talking about.
Again I tell you, Serbia will not recognise Kosovo no matter what the court says.

Miri

I don't think we can afford to be too sure of our victories, if they were achieved/supported by foreign, big sponsors. Their priorities may change and our fortunes with them.

After all, I'm willing to bet Serbia never expected to have to fight over Kosovo again after the early 1900s...but it ended up doing so.

For now though, I'm looking forward to see what the ICJ will come up with, what balance will the court strike between human rights and rules of war on one side and state sovereignty on the other.

After that...who knows what's going to happen?

Tadic who are too over confident always loose these kinds of cases. We will have to wait and see. Probably the Developed World e.g. EU,US, Australia, Japan, Switzerland etc will fight to the end for Kosovo to win the case. I do not know who is going to win.

Mr Tadic are you begging us albanians to negotiate with you about our future status ? Well it is to late despite the outcome of ICJ ruling. In Kosovo we have our own President,Prime minsiter,Parlament,Institutions and the police and army. We dont need anything from Serbia and we have been in war with Serbia so there is no point to change our independence. We are more than happy with our 62 recognitions and we dont need a seat at the UN right now. Reamamber that US and the strongest EU countrys are on our side and that will not change. Kosovo is independent from Serbia and that is a reality we all have to face, one daý or another.

We will see if Serbia will succeed to be a Eu member without recognizing Kosovo. I depply doubt it.

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner".
What are your other choices Mr Tadik?
Of course you act in peaceful manner.We all know what hapend
10 yrs ago.There is no doubt that if Serbia has capability it will use violence.
the think is that They got their lesson.

"Serbia will insist on continuing negotiations and finding a compromise solution".

"Compromise solution"? That sentence is purely used for political consumtion/demagogy.
Serbia has made it clear that will not recognise Kosova's independence. Kosovar Albanians has made it clear that Kosova's status is a closed chapter and independence from Serbia is unnegotiable.
Where is the point of "compromise"?
Is anyone up there can see any single point on that issue? The Serbian point of "compromise" was raised during the last negotiations but that so called talks can not continue for ever...just to frustrate the Albanians in their legitimate right to know what their future holds. Now after the independence Kosovar Albanians know their future, EU and NATO. It is taking longer than expected. That is true but at least Kosova is free and open country.

Tadić expect ICJ decision "in Serbia's favor" -> He added "regardless of the ICJ's decision".

What better to summ it up?

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner".

What were the other options that Serbia could have taken it. Aside from imposing an embargo which would have been totally counter productive and eventually would have driven out the remaining Serb population, I dont see that Serbia had any other choices.

EU is also playing a game here. It should make it clear to Serbia that you lost this territory once and forever and just move forward. Serbia is not the only state that lost territory due to regional war or political changes. Russia, Germany, France, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Great Britain almost every country in Europe one time or another lost or gained territory due to the conditions on the ground. So please accept the fact you lost and act gracefull instead of prolonging this agony.

What will Mr Tadic do if ICJ's decission is not in Serbia's favour?

Will he accept it?
(SiriusBlack, 3 November 2009 15:20)

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not. Why should he?
What will make him recognize Kosovo?
Russia and China will veto your entry into UN while Cyprus and others will veto your entry into EU. So, tell us, what is Tadic's incentive to recognize Kosovo? ICJ is not going to deliver a verdict which must be obeyed, as you Albanians have said so many times. Whatever happens Kosovo will remain legally Serbian and there is nothing you can do about it anyway. Without majority of the world recognizing you and Russia and China agreeing not to veto, you are in limbo forever.

What will Mr Tadic do if ICJ's decission is not in Serbia's favour?

Will he accept it?

@Mark:

those "if´s" you cannot stand in bo-the-midwest´s post, could be the "if´s" that let you lose your smile one day.

although I am no fan of Tadic and his comrades, I must admit that they handled the issue quite smart and careful.

Serbia can only win, there is no question about that.

the K-albanian separatists will end up somewhere in the "diaspora"... maybe they will work as bouncers again.

let´s just see what future brings.
we have time. and I am quite confident, since having international law in your back, is a VERY good thing.

let´s talk again, when the US let you down, folks. and that is going to happen, sooner or later.

I love to repeat it, let´s just see what future brings! =)

Watch the rhetoric: UDI --> Kosovo's independence.

This is how independent Kosovo is:

"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.

This is certainly a shift away from talk about "imposing" a solution and also carries with it some interesting conditional points: "both parties" need to agree, and any solution has to be both "sustainable" and "possible to implement."

Hidden criticism of Washington in this statement, that U.S. advocates for a unilateral recognition of self-declared independence would then have to be willing to sustain and implement this solution using American resources, rather than making commitments we would then expect Europeans to carry out?"

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not.

No Peggy. I meant will he accept ICJ's decission. And I know the answer to that.
(SiriusBlack, 4 November 2009 14:30)

Sirius, recognition of Kosovo is exactly what ICJ decision would be if they said it was legal and Serbia accepted their decsion. I don't get what else you are talking about.
Again I tell you, Serbia will not recognise Kosovo no matter what the court says.

Tadić also pointed out that Serbia reacted to the Kosovo Albanian secessionist act "in a peaceful and restrained manner

Because Serbia could not react in another manner.NATO is in Kosovo.When you had the power we saw how peaceful you reacted.

Why do you keep preaching about respecting international law when you say that you will not respect the verdict of ICJ if it goes Albanians way?

Bganon.
"... this rubbish about 'we have already had neogitations'. We have NOT had negotiations."

Here we are. President Ahtisari as High Representative of UN spent a lot of time with Albanian and Serbian delegations regarding the Kosovo's status. He heared more than enough the views of both delegations. Negotiations COULD NOT go on for EVER. I just want the Serbian panel here to understand that point. At least THAT IS ALBANIAN POINT OF VIEW. I am preatty sure the overwhelming majority of Albanians would agree with that. Remember guys at some point the negotiations were postponed because of early parliamentary elections in Serbia and the we had the "forced introductions of Serbian Constitution" where Kosovo/a in a laughable way was "sanctioned" part of Serbia while the negotiations were taking place. Some people would like to foolish Albanians and the international communtity BUT these times have gone once and for all.

From the legal point of view Serbia can not lose. But it would be tremendous pressure on ICJ to go in other direction. I am afraid that this will happen.

However, negotiations conducted by Ahtisaari ("Nobel peace prize winner") never had intentions to negotiate anything. The status was already decided even before negotiations started. Even Albanian journalist (I can not remember his name but he spent time in Belgrade during bombing in 99) has called negotiations "Farsa directed by international community".

Negotiations have never been stopped because of Serbian elections. Ahtisaari only postponed to present plan to Serbs about Kosovo independence and final solution for Serbs because of Serbian elections. They thought that nationalist will win after plan is presented.

Kosovo Albanians never negotiated anything as they already knew what was the outcome of the negotiations.

EA, so please don't talk rubbish. Wherever you from do not pretend that you don't know about negotiations. And if you are Albanian and think that negotiations were fair, then you are lying.

Serbia can't lose, if ICJ rules against, then welcome RS, Northern Kosovo, and later Krajina. Kosovo remains a black hole never to be recognised by Russia and Spain, read block at UN and in EU. As Serbia prospers in EU the Albanians in Kosovo will suddenly discover their Serbian roots in return for EU passports.

Well I like this picture that I have painted. What do you think? A little less red? A little more blue? A few gold stars? What colour do you think the two headed eagle should be?

EA call me old fashioned but negotiations does not consist of one party speaking to a middleman and another speaking to that middleman. That 'middleman' by the way that before he spoke to either party, already decided what would happen. By no definition is this a negotiation.

Negotiations is precisely that the parties involved directly negotiate. You cannot talk about negotiations going on for ever before they have even begun. Its absurd and shows a lack of maturity.

In the real world, normally balanced people talk when they have serious problems. Politicians, 'statesmen' are not particularly interested in the lives of ordinary people getting better. No, they are interested in re-election, winning prizes.

So what is it really? That you are afraid that negotiations means you have to give concessions? Again, welcome to the real world. Compromise is a fact of life and its what people do when they disagree but must live together.

Yes politicians and the media (owned by some of the same politicians) have an interest in generating scare stories to frighten Kosovo Albanians into opposing direct talks.

That doesn't mean you have to support the politics of infantilism and manipulation.

BTW if the position was reversed I would still argue that Serbs must come to the negotiating table.

EA pointing me to a wiki page does not change the fact that no direct negotiations were held, that the 'mediator' in fact did not want to negotiate but to impose his plan upon both sides.

Now in the medium term perhaps somebody needs to impose a plan that neither side will like, if they are unwilling to do it themselves. But in order for that to happen both sides must meet and negotiate directly.

Now I suspect you don't have much knowledge of diplomacy. You are utterly wrong in thinking that there is no point in meeting because we have opposing positions and others will continue to suffer because of your obstructive view.

Then you back down a little and say well perhaps we could talk - if there hadn't been war. Hello? The very fact that there was war means that negotiations are imperative. If you look at case studies of conflict around the world you will see that unresolved conflicts are more likely to result in war in the future. Do you want that for Kosovo?

Do you not see how that selfish 'I'm alright jack, I've got my UDI' attitude to negotiations harms Albanians and Serbs in the future?

OK there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree but the fact is that whether you will admit it or not, your position is the completely wrong one to take.

Butnegotiations will resume, the only question is when. It would just be nice if we could for once start this process ourselves, rather than relying on the internationals to impose a solution and themselves upon us.

miri do you think you are unique in the history of conflict?

Why is it that Kosovo does not require negotiations, when clearly there are so many issues to solve?

You don't believe there will ever be negotiations? Well people used to firmly believe that the earth was flat. Officially or unoficially there will be negotiations. I mean I bet you would even deny that there were negotiations under Milosevic? Imagine that I would have never touched Milosevic with a barge pole but Kosovo Albanians were having secret meetings with Serbian emissiaries behind your back. Of course it was not at the highest level (to my knowledge) but it happened.

So you would deal with Milosevic but not the current Serbian government? Bang goes the moral argument then.

The first thing I'd say if I was a Serbian representative meeting Albanians for direct talks 'its high time, let us resolve the issues for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo'.

Of course if you told me that independence is not negotiable then you would need our cooperation for Serb dominated parts of Kosovo - unless you, like Milosevic, think the fist is better.

I can understand how some Albanians never felt like equal citizens in Jugoslavija. Look at the name 'the land of south slavs'. I can understand that in certain periods of history, most recently since 1989 Albanians felt repressed and eventually completely disenfranchised. But I also understand that the period from 1974 - 1989 was one of growth for many Albanian families. It was in this period that Serbs felt that they had become second class citizens in Kosovo.

You see Miri with me, you get the story without the lies and sweeping generalisations. Perhaps my approach is laughable to some Albanians such as yourself, but I'm willing to bet that other Albanians would grasp the olive branch as a historical chance to lay this issue to bed. Life is too short. Of course we can hammer this out, if you keep reminding yourself it will benefit your people and their future.

As far as emotive language is concerned 'abandoning what they died for' how about this.. 'how about preventing more people dying in the future'. Knowing Kosovo's history you are prepared to fool yourself into thinking that it will never happen again and things in an independent Kosovo will be peaceful. There are serious unresolved issues and I would say that without negotiation some form of conflict, including deaths are inevitable.

You think that is a fantasy? Or you are willing to let more die (whether those deaths are Serb or Albanian, whether the fault is Serb or Albanian) for your dream of an independent Kosovo?

Ment I anticipate a big drive on the Serbian side in the wake of the ICJ decision for re-opened talks. The majority in Serbia wil support this. On the Albanian side a majority will remain warily against but I think the Albanian leaders will sanction such talks. The massive sticking point would be whether the talks are called status talks or not. Albanians will refuse such named talks outright. However, I do believe that status talks will be held - in other words the status of majority Serb parts of Kosovo will be discussed.

Of course it may be that both sides decide it might be more sensible (if they are serious about a solution) to make unofficial negotiations. To take it away from the glare of the media and other politicians seeking to make cheap political points.

A lot of ifs and buts but I firmly believe that negotiation is the only way forward.

"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.
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Another low for Serb commentators...this comment was from 2007! Holland recognizes Kosova

Without new negotiations the partition of Kosovo will be permanent. Negotiations regarding who gets what will take place between Serbia and Eulex. Most likely the areas currently controlled by Serbs will remain under their control and vice verca.

With the current Court Boris is too optimistic. I guess it will be a solution like OSCE Commission made over Georgia. They said that Georgia was the aggressor while Russia used exceeded force to defend the civilians. Now both sides say that they enjoy Europe’s support.

Same will happen after we have the ICJ solution. They cannot condemn Serbs cause formally they are right. And they cannot condemn the Americans cause for the time being they are too strong and influential.

This point that the Albanian camp are making that Tadic had no choice but to make a peaceful response.

The point is that Tadic and his politics represents another way from violence. A battle by negotiation. OK some of that is demagogy, but the point is to fundamentally support diplomacy as a way to find a lasting solution.

EA et all. Yes the Serbian and Kosovo Albanian positions are diametrically opposed. But that is not a reason why negotiations should not be held. There are many issues that will help real people. Extreme examples follow but this is the kind of thing you may get; Unofically Serbia lets Kosovo authorities know details about a mass grave of Albanians, unoficially in response Kosovo Albanian party leader passes information regarding the sale of organs ie to knock out a rival Kosovo Albanian party leader. Perhaps neither of these stories could be true. But the point is that the victims and their relatives may benefit.

And I wish that this rubbish about 'we have already had neogitations'. We have NOT had negotiations.

Now if you are happy then fine be against negotiations. However, the fact is that neither Serbs nor Albanians are happy. This isn't about your right to feel satisfied about UDI, this is about the right of people who live in Kosovo to have a normal life.

On that note I would remind everybody that its these people who should be in our thoughts - not politicians, the media, the corrupt and their priorities.

Bganon,

"negotiations does not consist of one party speaking to a middleman and another speaking to that middleman. That 'middleman' by the way that before he spoke to either party, already decided what would happen. By no definition is this a negotiation."

Read that and hope it will give you some better understanding whether there were negotiations or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree. To rap it up Serbia has said it will never accept Kosovo's independence. On the other side Kosovo/a Albanians have said there will be no return to Serbia.
Your talking about "balanced negotiations" would have been OK if there was not war in Kosova. A classical example would be Vojvodina when we talk about autonomous status. Can you understand what I am trying to explain? I hope yes. We do not have to agree I repeat.

If by acceptit it you mean recognize Kosovo then he will not.

No Peggy. I meant will he accept ICJ's decission. And I know the answer to that.

Whether you agree with Tadic or not, the probable scenario would be that Serbia, Kosovo, and maybe Albania would all join as a "package deal" if at all. I would be willing to bet that most EU members know all too well that separately, any of the three would be quite "veto happy" when voting on whether the "enemy" can join.

As far as Serbia's recognition of Kosovo being a pre-requisite for entering the EU, that would be a double-edged sword for the Albanians too. I can easily imagine Slovakia, Cyprus, Spain vetoing Kosovo on Serbia's behalf. Some may hope that Slovakia and Cyprus can be arm twisted into not vetoing, but I doubt the same can be said for Spain and Greece.

In the end, I realize many of the Serbian and Albanian posters may not like to hear this, but as far as joining the EU is concerned, we're very likely going to sink or swim together.

Bganon, how would you start negotiations, let's say with any of us, when you come to the table saying anything but not independence. We from the other hand will say we want nothing but independence.
Don't you understand that direct talking from such positions is impossible hence the need for the middle man? You still live in a dream world hoping that through "direct negotiations" you could force/trick your will on K-Albanians. Why don't you ask Kostunica about that, since he was one of the members of Serb delegation during troika talks, and who would refuse to even shake hands with K-Albanian representatives.
Tell us what would be the first thing you would say if we, the opposing party ,agreed to meet with you under the only condition that independence is not negotiable. Don't you understand that that you lost Kosova for good after the war? Don't you understand that you forced your will unsuccessfully on K-Albanians for too long( with the help of european powers, but above all Russia) and at the end of the story even these power came to conclusion that there is no other way? Don't you understand that US and Europe did not do a favor to K-Albanians but simply looked after their interest in having a pacified Ballkan and K-Independence was the only way to achieve that?
You probably are pissed that you played your cards so bad with Milosevic but that's your problem. Things change and life goes on. History doesn't stop at 12:44. I am willing to bet my life that there will never be any negotiations with Serbia regarding K-Independence. It has been 3 years that you and some others talk about "real negotiations". 3 years and I never heard any argument/example, anything at all on how are you going to convince K-Albanians to abandon what they died for. Americans are current protectors of Kosova but that's precisely because of your blind nationalism and stupidity that caused 4 wars in a decade.

I agree with him, mainly because Serbia has a very low threshold for declaring victory.

The only way that Kosovo's Albanians win is if the ICJ emphatically says that the UDI was fine by international law, and that all nations are urged to recognize it. That is not going to happen of course.

On the other hand, if the ICJ rules emphatically in Serbia's favor, the game is over for Kosovo's Albanians. The only thing left them to do then is pick a negotiating team that can best smooth the re-integration of the province into Serbia. This would tough to deal with, but presumably someone on the K-Alb side would have the integrity to stand up and say it's over. This would be suicidal for the time being, but it would happen sooner rather than later, once it's clear that the UDI was a mistake, and that no further recognitions are coming.

A fudge is about the best the K-Albs can get. But this does nothing for them, other than delay negotiations until the province collapses under its own hypocrisy. After a few years in limbo, something would have to give. It certainly wouldn't be Serbia, what with backing from the BRIC countries. If the ICJ does not absolutely approve of the UDI, the K-Albs can't continue to bet that anyone in the U.S. will care about them 10 or 20 years from.

midwest_bo

You got to many IF-s in your post.

Bganon

I agree with you when you say that you can't claim of having negotiations when the end results are already painted as a foregone conclusion.

I also agree with EA that given how diametrically opposite the views were, there was really little left to negotiate about.

Under these circumstances, I think focusing any future negotiations on status would be like putting the cart before the horse.

In my opinion, the focus should be first on building bridges between the two populations/countries (depending on your point of view) that were pretty much annihilated by the war.
That process has yet to begin.

"miri do you think you are unique in the history of conflict? "

No I don't and that's what I am contemplating here. Kosova is as unique as Serbia when it gained its independence a century ago by breaking the "international law" of its time.

"You don't believe there will ever be negotiations? Well people used to firmly believe that the earth was flat"

This is just a cliche and no need for answer. My writing professor always taught me to avoid cliches like a plague.


"The first thing I'd say if I was a Serbian representative meeting Albanians for direct talks 'its high time, let us resolve the issues for Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo'.

Of course if you told me that independence is not negotiable then you would need our cooperation for Serb dominated parts of Kosovo "

Isn't this what K-Government has been asking all along via good neighborly cooperation? But that's not what you are interested now, right? I repeat, you want to talk only about status and we want to talk about anything but status.

"...I'm willing to bet that other Albanians would grasp the olive branch as a historical chance to lay this issue to bed. "

And here is the same question again that you can't answer. Why would those Albanians that you mention would have any interest in discussing Status with you? What would you give to them? You don't seem to understand at all what the other side feels. We feel we have achieved the maximum that could be achieved under circumstances. Any other "negotiations" would give us less. The only way to force us back to negotiations would be to convince US and EU, the allies that support K-Independence but its everyone's conviction that this process has already expired. Why? because negotiations already took place and led to nothing. Repeating endless that there were never "real negotiations" it's not going to change an iota. At the end of the day Serb government never provided, even to this day a convincing plan on how to integrate K-Albanians into Serb society. Sorry to say but that's where your diplomacy sucks. Please, there are plenty analysis on the web that explain why western powers took the decision that they took. You can stubbornly insist that you want to talk about the status again. It ain't going to happened unless you convince US and EU while we have to convince Russia to withdraw its veto. The battle for Kosova has always been the battle to convince the west and this time you lost and we won thanks to your consecutive governments for being so gullible.

"As far as emotive language is concerned 'abandoning what they died for' how about this.. 'how about preventing more people dying in the future'. Knowing Kosovo's history you are prepared to fool yourself into thinking that it will never happen again and things in an independent Kosovo will be peaceful. There are serious unresolved issues and I would say that without negotiation some form of conflict, including deaths are inevitable. "

Bganon, I sincerely respect your moderate attitude but the facts on the ground are such that Ballkans is not currently threatened by Serbia anymore. Forcing negotiations on the presumptions that on the future another conflict might explode is very lame. The 90% Albanian make up of the population in Kosova suggests that this is highly unlikely. Unfortunately Milosevic was your last chance to make Kosova yours and it ended in disgrace.

Miri

I don't think we can afford to be too sure of our victories, if they were achieved/supported by foreign, big sponsors. Their priorities may change and our fortunes with them.

After all, I'm willing to bet Serbia never expected to have to fight over Kosovo again after the early 1900s...but it ended up doing so.

For now though, I'm looking forward to see what the ICJ will come up with, what balance will the court strike between human rights and rules of war on one side and state sovereignty on the other.

After that...who knows what's going to happen?

Tadic who are too over confident always loose these kinds of cases. We will have to wait and see. Probably the Developed World e.g. EU,US, Australia, Japan, Switzerland etc will fight to the end for Kosovo to win the case. I do not know who is going to win.