Tuesday, 03.11.2009.
10:41
Belgrade daily Danas says "no Serbian government officials" have expressed their condolences for the drowning of Kosovo Albanians at the Hungarian border.
Izvor: Danas
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Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
(Delije, 6 November 2009 05:27)
Because Mexico is an independent country? Thanks Delije for articulating it better than any of us could.
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Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
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Kosovo is Serbia!!!!!!
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"Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?"
(Ment, 5 November 2009 01:17)
Because none of it had anything to do with justice but all to do with politics.
Now you know.
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Olf, mate, do you really think that Serbs are guilty for deaths of their own people caused by NATO bombs? You say that you have a lot of serbian friends, have you ever let them know what you really think? What exactly you have told them? Do they support your views? Maybe you should speak about crimes on Serbs done by albanians and NATO.
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if olf's opinions are not pre-formed i am the queen of england. it's easy to condemn attrocities committed by the serbs. it is when you start to find excuses for crimes of the nato that you begin to lose credibility. to my mind this is not better than serbs finding excuses for attocities of the serbian police and paramilitary. this article is about serbs who criticise their government. as they should. and citizens of nato countries have the moral duty to scrutinise actions of their own governments, not find excuses for their crimes.
on the other hand it's true that many posters from serbian diaspora make very annoying comments which don't paint a nice picture about serbs. however, they are not the only ones who make stupid comments.
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Olf's comments about this being a site where "everybody has access" is right on: if a non-Serbian reader goes to Google for information on a matter related to Serbia, the English-language story from B92 is sure to show up. This is a pity, because most of the Serb-supporting comments to the story are so much more strident than anything you find on the Serbian comment page, and they really don't give a fair impression of the range of opinion on any question that seems to exist in Serbia. Or the intelligence and/or humor with which they are sometimes expressed.
I especially appreciate Olf's willingness to provide information here based on his personal experience working in Kosovo rather than pre-formed political opinions - it takes a certain level of maturity to overlook the emotional responses this evokes in certain other posters. Tnx, Olf.
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Bojan, I considered that scenario, but it's easy to imagine the response. People would have yelled something like, "Serbia is just trying to capitalize on a tragedy only to score political points!"
I think Belgrade couldn't win either way on this one -- someone would have found a reason to complain and criticize regardless of what was done...perhaps I'm becoming a cynical S.O.B.!
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The very least that the politicians could have done was to offer condolences in order to prove a point, that K-Albanians are still in Serbia. This shows the incompetence of politicians.
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Olf is still embarrassed by his spanking here because he is STILL going.
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Olf is not part of failed Serbian propaganda machine like some in here. Most of Olf's comments are based in real fact. Those that are interested to find them can very easily find them.
I guess that reality hurts some in here and some people have a real problem with, no matter where they from or what they do.
Again, it is sad to see Serbian propaganda machine trying to change and twist the facts but at the same time happy to see them fail once again.
Guys, I suggest you keep on trying and be less abusive. you never know, you might succed one day.
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ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
(Olf, 5 November 2009 09:19)
Coming from a person who is feeling more than a little humiliated for the virtual spanking he got here in this thread. I have lost count of how many times you have contradicted yourself and outright fabricated information. I would be embarrassed too.
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Thank you all for your comments. No offence taken from Serb radicals/nationalist.
ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
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In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
The three Balkan dictators could not make anything Good or lasting! USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia are a good ezample. To have borederless environment you need a well established democracy.
All tragedies on the Balkans came from the fact that After the collapse of the Ottoman, and soon after the Austro-Hungarian Empires the new borders were NOT drawn (more or less) in accordance with the ethnic lines, but on the winner-looser principle. As a result ALL became losers!
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Ataman said: "Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed."
Let me try to guess Ataman. No politician (in this case Serbian) will offer condolences to people(in this case Albanians), whose votes they don't hope to get in the next elections. Can you figure out the implications of the last sentence, wink wink? Together with the other guess: no politician will do something (offer condolences in this particular case), which may make them lose points with the people who can vote for them.
Not even the leading class of Serbia considers Kosovo politically part of Serbia, but I guess you disagree.
Finally, it is funny to see comments by some people, which make parallels between Mexican immigrants, and the US, which are two different countries. Reality is slowly sinking in...
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Ajvalija
For one thing I'm a guy.
Secondly, my parents live in Tirana and when the refugees from Kosovo were settled only a few hundred meters from where they lived, according to my folks, they had some interesting stories to tell about the Serbian army and police. I'm sure there's plenty of Kosovar Albanians that can fill you in with more details, but then again, you'll come up with other excuses or be completely tone deaf because they're also "demonizing" the army.
You listed some police officers that got killed by the KLA. Fair enough...if KLA was a terrorist organization, then it could have been dealt the same way the British dealt with the IRA or Spain with the ETA. But then I remembered those police officers were sent to Kosovo not to enforce law and order, but to kick Albanians out of their schools, university, work places and keep them out by filling all those institutions with Serbs. Teaching in Albanian was banned...light, insignificant stuff basically. I recently heard from a Kosovar Albanian that those days, anyone caught in the streets wearing a red shirt or anything that looked like an Albanian flag was likely to earn himself a few bruises by goons...sorry your police officers...if he was lucky.
Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?
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We are still "drowning" with this nonsense article?
99 comments up to now?
Ave Maria!
Big Brother block the subject, pls.
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-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
(Mike, 4 November 2009 00:48)
Thanks for an honest answer but I must add that your presumption is wrong. I didn't come here to take the higher moral ground as an Albanian, as a matter of fact I see both our people as very similar and I've come to expect Serbs to react to things the same way I would.
The gist of my argument was that the failure of Belgrade to show any sort of empathy for what it considers its "citizens" proves that Ksoova and Serbia are basically done. All the cries from some of the Serbian posters here about Prishtina going back to the negotiations table with Belgrade is just hogwash, the last failed attempt to hold on to the territory while still treating the ethnic Albanian population as undesirable.
The only solution to this problem could conceivably be partition along the Ibar but only with the understanding that Kosova joins Albania, which I doubt anyone involved wants to happen.
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Ment
>I have no idea what slavas are.
Its when we get together with albanians like olf to have fun.
>In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked.
If the war didn't start on 24 march 1999 it was another date.
Selected reading from records. One of these dates?
21 april 1996:Serb Blagoje Okulic was sitting with a friend in a cafe when a masked member of the KLA opened fire on the customers with an automatic weapon. Okulic and two other guest latter died in hospital. He was the first victim of the KLA.
16 June 1996 police patrol was attacked by KLA near Podujevo and police officer Goran Mitrovic was heavily wounded.
25 October 1996 two police officers were killed by automatic weapons near the village of Surkis in the Podujevo municipality Milos Nikolic (34), a police inspector of the Pristina Precinct, and Dragan Rakic from the village of Velika Reka, who was a police officer in the reserves and a manager of a company in Podujevo. KLA terrorist killed police officer Milos Nikolic in the front of his house.
Maybe the war started in the year 1997. 21 march in the center of Podujevo. KLA terrorists fired five shots at police officer Branislav Milovanovic, wounding him heavily.
In 1998? 15 february: Nik Abdulahu, an ethnic Albanian employee of the Serbia Electric Utility, was shot and killed while at work, at the electricity substation in the village of Staro Cikatovo near Glogovac.
April 29: A group of terrorists on night attacked a Serb police patrol near the village of Dulje, the clash left one policeman seriously wounded and other Sasa Jovanovic (26), was killed as unidentified persons opened fire with a hand-held rocket launcher at the police post at Dulje from a several-hundred-meter distance. Ethnic Albanians demolished cars of foreign journalist in Pristina hotel "Grand", which didn’t support their cause.
43 Kla terrorist attacks and incidents in 96 and 97, over 200 in 98.
Maybe the war started in 1980s when albanian separatist organised bloody demonstrations in Pristina. Or maybe later when they intimidated Serbs, raping and killing them and poisoning their wells and animals.
http://www.kunstradio.at/WAR/binder-nytimes.html
>show quite a casualness to butchery
I'm casual only to your baseless antiserb ranting and propaganda, lies and demonisation of serb army and police. We madam fought against richest countries but moral midgets and that's why we held on for 78 days and could've done it for at least 78 more. Serb army and police was undefeated in battlefield. Like i said i wish we fought first clean war in history. But we couldnt and some crimes like in any war happened. Paramils who did crimes are in court or in jail. And another thing. Nobody who knows anything about war uses words like collateral damage for butchered civilians, because it's disrespectful. You madam do.
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>Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
What?! help me somebody.
>Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Its just there's no reason. Nobody else hides nationality as far as i see. I just dont know why you do.
>of Kovova and yuor English is excellent
thanks, yours is too. I also shower every day and can switch on computer. You should hear me speak albanian. tell your girlfriend about me :)
>Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina
And kosovo is serbia. I know, i know.
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Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
Army trains? It was a CIVILIAN passenger train, Einstein. Civilian deaths were from Milosevic using people as shields?! Yeah, like in the old folks’ home and hospitals? You have ZERO credibility. Furthermore, I really doubt someone who has supposedly worked for over 10 years in an international organization in Russia and Kosovo would be as misinformed as you are.
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The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
(Ylber, 4 November 2009 19:18)
Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed.
But this sentence is plain wrong for a simple reason: face it or not, Kosovo is not to a lesser degree Serbian than Albanian.
Time to time who has the upper hand does try eradicate the other party. What you wrote is nothing else, just imposing on Serbs the Albanian wish. They won't accept it and wait till they will have the upper hand - if it takes 500 years, than 500 years.
The only way to finish this conflict is not to make more borders, but to make less.
In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
Which force works now on more partition is up to you to realize.
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1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 18:53)
no, darling, i will never want to understand you. because people killed were no criminals. war crimes do make me sick, regardless of who committed them. which makes me different from yourself. you love war crimes as long as they are justified properly. which is entirely human. i do not believe that war ciminals are animals, you see, they are human. they just believe that there is a justification for what they do. just like you. and that's entirely human. it sucks nevertheless.
kthxbye
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The fact that Serbia considers Kosovo an “inalienable” part of it’s territory that means that all of the people living in Kosovo are also “inalienable” citizens of Serbia. As such a formal offer of condolences to the families of the victims would have been prudent. If these were Serbs that drowned trying to illegally migrate do you honestly believe that the Serbian government would have been equally silent? Of course not.
This is “inalienable” proof that Serbia and it’s government do not view Albanians from Kosovo as it’s citizens and as such can not possibly expect Kosovo to be considered Serbian territory as the vast majority of it’s population is Albanian.
Those of you who assert that Kosovar Albanians don’t consider themselves Serbian citizens and as such shouldn’t expect condolences from Serbia are absolutely correct. And we don’t.
However because Serbia hypocritically considers Kosovo it’s territory and by that virtue Kosovo’s citizens as Serbian citizens, the Serbian government had a political obligation, not a moral one, to make such a statement. The fact that they didn’t openly and publicly shows that in the halls of power behind closed doors they very well realize that Kosovo is lost and will never be part of Serbia.
That being said I feel awful for this tragedy occurring and offer my most sincere condolences to the families of the lost. May they rest in peace.
I’m sure that many of you that disagree with this article and my comments are under the same delusion that causes you to believe that there is a true chance that Kosovo Independence will be reversed. That is a ludicrous wish and desire and nothing more. The reality on the ground is irreversible. You couldn’t control us with 65000 troops and police for decades what makes you think you can control us after we have already tasted freedom?
The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
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Thank goodness Croats are decended from Franks. I am so tired of you Avar's and your
arguments.
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(malcolm x, 4 November 2009 17:26)
1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
I dont know about the story in Africa but I can suggest you look for a story that has people in trains deported, women raped, elderly slaughered, babies burned, men of all ages executed from Serbian army and police in Kosovo.
This makes every human being very very sick you probably agree no. This is something that mankind will never forget.
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(roberto, 4 November 2009 07:30)
Thanks Roberto for your continuous objective and smart comments.
It is always a great pleasure reading them.
The fact of the weakness of the Serbian argument in ICJ is also the fact that if the Serbian interpretation of international law is correct, then Serbia should give up Vojvodina.
Based on which international law Vojvodina is Serbian???
There is much much much more LEGAL grounds for the Kosova’s independence than for the Serbian-Vojvodina.
But Serbs prefer to live in their surrealistic world instead of facing the truth.
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There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
yeah, right. don't blame the people who did the killing, blame the people who failed to prevent it. it makes perfect sense. and people who use the human shields excuse are disgusting. did you know that german colonial army used that excuse during the massacre of the herero people in what is today namibia? old story. and how did bombing of bridges in novi sad prevent the serbian army from harming civilians in a completely different part of the country?
when i read reports about the bombing of the tv station back in 1999 it was the first time in my life that i saw a war crime being reported in the media without people calling it what it was - a war crime. it was announced that a civilian target was deliberately targetted. other civilian targets were also hit, but you could claim that it was not deliberate.
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ajvalia
I have no idea what slavas are.
Never been to Kosovo or Serbia, but I suppose these must be something great if you're bragging about it.
But then again, you brag about INAT too, so go figure.
In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked. NATO had nothing better to do so out of the blue, it decided to use Serbia for target practice. Nevermind the events before.
There's a collective amnesia there and unfortunately, there's no cure for that.
Btw... your bla, bla, sorry, blas and the last part of the comment, show quite a casualness to butchery.
It's funny, because a western negotiator sent to deal with Milosevic in the 90-s, noticed this exact same kind of attitude by the Serb officials of the time.
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Olf, you belong in the zero credibility bin just like roberto. Always justifying NATOs crime, ignoring ethnic Albanian crimes but highlighting propaganda against Serbians.
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Thanks for the links, Zoran. They saved me time digging them up for a research paper I am working on. I guess Oaf put his foot in his mouth yet again.
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ajvalija 101
I started to like your posts. Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina, Republic of Kovova and yuor English is excellent. Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
Zoran, thanks for your links. You have a point but did you forget why all that happened. Just dont carry on with Milosevic style journalism please, the one that gave Serbia his reputation.
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A big thank you goes to B92 editors for posting comments of alvalia, zoran, mike and milan. These comments tell a lot why things that happend in Balkans actually happened.
Thank You B92 again.
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JC
Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
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To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
Very true. I can even pull up Gen. (Weasel) Wesley Clark's own words about how they wanted to make civilians' lives miserable...
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Roberto,
Luckily you have no point. And luckily, I can understand Serbian to a degree I can read the Serbian forum on B92.
What Serbs say there is pretty much the same I do.
And there is no Albanian-Serbian quarrel there.
http://www.b92.net/info/komentari.php?nav_id=390254
And here: shame on both sides who again try to prove their "opanak-versus-fustanella" theories on the occasion that some unfortunate people died.
At last, Roberto has the valid excuse, he does not understand Serbian. But the others? Mine (Serbian) is poor but at least I try to understand.
Not knowing - and posting (as usual) violent anti-Serbian essay due lack of knowledge - is just an excuse.
As it was written:
"Ali hvala od naroda Srbije sto ne misli tako kako misli njihova Vlada."
And as Milan writes - I am joining him:
"a porodicama nastradalih iskreno saucesce!"
But I want to see the traffickers who collected 8000 Euro / family behind the bars for good 15 years and I don't care where: in Kiev, Pristina, Belgrade... lock them up and make them suffer for 15 years.
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Olf the slava going albanian:
As an albanian i hope you enjoyed crossing yourself in front of the candle. I sure would enjoy watching it. We celebrate 21 november, consider yourself invited :)
Anyway while we talk about national traditions, we serbs have slavas, you albanians have blood feuds. I've seen a few of those too.
Ment, i guess you dont go to any slavas:
'Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics… bla bla sorry bla..
Nato started illegally attacking our country on march 24 1999 in the evening hours hitting a village near pristine and airport in kraljevo if I remember correctly. After that the war broke out. That’s the chronology that all honest people should pay attention to. Nato attack caused the war in Kosovo. The war in Kosovo started after Nato started its war against Serbia, not before.
You might want to read this
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5570
And if we deliberately scorched you, whatever, you would know it believe me. Give the propaganda a rest and look at the fact of our counterterrorist operations since 96. Look at how stupidly and irresponsibly patient and restrained we were for years with albanian terror in kosovo.
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To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
--
Absolutely, NATO bombed Serbian and ethnic Albanian civilians and NATO was unmoved by those deaths.
Who remembers these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/320204.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/337989.stm
http://www.cnn.org/WORLD/europe/9905/09/kosovo.02/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/357609.stm
http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/archives2/041399/top.html
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"And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today.
(Jason, 4 November 2009 10:54) "
I completely agree with this statement and more Americans are waking up to the fact that what we did to Serbia was wrong.
To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
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I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
(Nikos, 4 November 2009 11:43)
--
It's simple. He gets paid by the US and he follows their agenda.
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Wrong again,robby,
Kosovo is still part of Serbia according to UN1244,only occupied.
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If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
(Nelli currently in Kosova, 4 November 2009 12:22)
Typical comment from an arrogant Albanian. “Oh, there is no way that an American who worked for UNMIK could ever possibly not listen to his government and take the Serbian side over the Albanian one!” Nelli, if it makes you feel better to say this, be my guest.
As for Oaf…
“I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.”
- If you have, Olf, then you are a hypocrite. How could you have ANY Serbian friends after you spew hate and rubbish against Serbs here on a regular basis. Unless you are of course two-faced and you don’t tell them how you really are. Furthermore, unlike you, I don’t rely on EU Security to tell me what is and what is not safe. I decide for myself. I suggest you try the same.
“As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.”
(Olf, 4 November 2009 12:23)
- Olf, are you that ignorant? I don’t know how you can consider hospitals, schools, passenger trains, radio and television stations, and factories to be of the “Milosevic army.” I suggest you stop drinking the cool aid and start checking your facts. All this said, however, I applaud your promise to stop exchanging posts with me. It is tiresome proving you wrong so often.
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As tragic as this event was, the same thing happens regularly on the US border with Mexico, and nobody even mentions it as news, let alone having a day of mourning. In fact, a disproportionate number of Black Americans are murdered daily, with barely a mention on the news. The reason perhaps is that these events are so common place that they are given little attention, or it could be that these poor individuals are members of a lower socioeconomic class and therefore the media or government dosen't really pay much attention to it. I'm afraid it's the same with the Albanians whom died on the illegal border crossing.
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Jason
I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.
As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.
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If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
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I cant understand why all this discussion for a non-existent subject. We have people like Dimitrijevic and "Belgrade Center for Human Rights" here in Greece too. They speak only to "protect" everybody else's human rights except the greeks.When some albanian tries to cross illegally and drowns, the serbs should feel guilty but no word on the everyday violation of serb rights in Kosovo by Albanians. I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
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Ajvalija and Peggy,
Thank you for illustrating the obvious weaknesses of Olf's ridiculous claims. I have numerous Serbian friends that either dislike my government and/or dislike EULEX. Never once have they taken out their feelings on me as an individual - unlike many Albanian posters here who despise all Russians, Romanians, (or as we have seen recently, Ukranians) because of their national politics.
I have been invited to countless slavas in Serbian homes in places like Zvecan, Zubin Potok, and Mitrovica. Despite how dangerous these places are as claimed by "Olf" I have found that to be quite the opposite.
And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today. Go ahead, let the hate mail begin!
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as a citizen of the eu i strongly condemn the "fortress europe" policies that have resulted in countless deaths and much suffering of the poor who are desperately trying to reach europe in search for better life. where they are coming from is irrelevant. i am also strongly opposed to deporting refugees back to kosovo, especially of children who have spent most of their lives in europe and for who kosovo is a foreign country.
it is also sad to see serbs and albanians fighting again even though in this case the main culprit is clearly someone else.
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The same people quoted saying that Serbia should make a public announcement about this event, are the same people who want Kosovo to remain as a part of Serbia.
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# THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
(ben, 3 November 2009 14:08)
thank you ben. serbia has no chance of winning this suit, nor did it ever. and the blg regime knows it, yet has used it w/ the utmost cynicism and expressly for bullying and propaganda purposes...
but here is my point -- there is a basic dehumanization of albanians in the media. this is nothing new -- not a unique realization of mine in any way. it has been true to a lesser and (more so) greater extent at least since the 80s. it is a continuation and hardening of attitude and it has horrible repercussions, this article pointing up only one latest manifestations. many serbian intellectuals write exactly this, but where are they here?
so many times i have pleaded to stop this treatment of the albanians (that is my respectful reference, not that of our adversaries)but such comments are almost always "edited." they are so utterly and thoroughly de-humanized, every day in every way -- and suddenly someone asks: why hasn't the blgd regime said something appropriate about this latest tragedy. who are you kidding?
media (all media) is a manifestation of a people and a culture, but it also is an act-or, a leader. where it goes people will tend to follow. think about it.
i agree with people that there is way too much hate on this site. but just be honest about who brings it out(at least 90%) and then always rationalizes it.
of course K-albanians are not serbian citizens, but they are people and have a right to be respected as such. it seems so obvious to me.
roberto
frisco (far away!)
pre 14 godina
Ervin,
It's nice to have a moderate Albanian poster for a change.
There are two key words in this article that may not be getting your attention: ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS.
Had these poor K-Albs/Albs been on a vacation, then dying like this AND the Serbian government said nothing then YES I would condemn that. That would be a shame on the entire nation and I hope to see protests/demonstrations over something like that. Though I doubt it would get that far, bad press might be as far as it goes.
However they were illegal immigrants and they should not have been there at all. To express condolence to them at such a high level is like asking Tadic to be expressing condolence to a bank robber that got hit by a car on his way out of the national bank. By breaking the law as they did they automatically put themselves in such a category - the category marked "not innocent". Law breakers are law breakers and this is regardless of ethnicity.
pre 14 godina
want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
Then pass your way or look somewhere else.
Reading this kind of disgusting comment and other alike comments just make me understand day after day why NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY who came to Switzerland during the war have any wish to go back to a land full of hatred!
pre 14 godina
Last week a k-a died in Switzerland fleeing after having being asked by the police to show his papers.
There wasn't any political statement due to this unfortunate event.
I don't know whether anyone would expect any political statement after an unfortunate death.
I have never heard Berlusconi making any statement whereas so many died at the Italian door steps, same for Spain, Cyprus, Greece etc....
It is indeed a terrible tragedy among so many tragedies that are happening every day all around the world...
For the K-a posters to take this as a tool to throw more stones on the Serbs is not only completely displaced but disgusting.
You guys really have nothing else better to do for your dream land where nobody wants to go back and where entire families are trying to escape.
It is about time that you start taking the broom and clean a bit your house if ever you want it to be recognized as a house and not as a sort of second zone campus!
pre 14 godina
what an absolutely idiot article.Why would they care?What albanians in Kosmet cry for the killed serbs,kidnapped Serbs,destroyed churches and monasteries,people chased out of their ancestoral homes?I think B92 is trying to stir the pot.
pre 14 godina
"And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova? [sic](Zoti)"
-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
pre 14 godina
Olf said,
"By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it."
Pathetic attempt at drawing a wedge between Jason and Serbs.
Try harder next time Olf.
pre 14 godina
Mike
----
I can't argue with that.
Ajvalija
--------
Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics...not to mention the monstrosities perpetrated by the paramilitaries.
Whether you like to admit it or not, there is a difference.
Speaking of INAT, it is not a monopoly of the Serbs by the way. Albanians (and I mean those in Albania too) have the same word and it implies exactly the same thing.
pre 14 godina
'By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.'
Why is it so hard to understand what you're talking about? What army?
And you know what out of INAT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/325997.stm i'm officially making 'jason' my friend right now. Serbs are accepting him. now lets move past that and hear your ARGUMENT in the discussion.
pre 14 godina
If these 15 victims trying to cross into Hungary were Serbs from Kosova, would the Serbian government have offered condolences to their families?
pre 14 godina
'Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
(Ment, 3 November 2009 20:22)
Your point please, madam? 'jason' is in serbia and so am i. we come across various mental loafs and we disagree with them. So that per se disqualifies someone?
Theres a lot of trolling going on in cyber city and claiming 15 k dead albanians from the war that albanian terrorists started falls in that category. It's propaganda and has nothing to do with reality. Also we hear 12 k and sometimes 20. So could albanians settle on one number?
Also I'm sorry serbs couldnt be the first in history of mankind to fight a pretty little all clean war where noone gets hurt and i'm glad we definitely didnt kill 12, 15 or 20,000 of them.
End of story.
pre 14 godina
Serbs don't get it that we do not want an apology from you.
We are simply trying to point out that the lack of an apology further proves that Kosova does not belong to Serbia that is all.
And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova?
pre 14 godina
As I could notice here, "moral loving" Kosovo Albanians are constantly citating (using citations) Belgrade's Center for Human Rights and the Director of it, Serbian Vojin Dimitrijević? Though I consider his statement genuine nonsence it clearly indicates that here in Serbia we have freedom of speech and duality in opinions.
In contrary on Kosovo ruled by Kosovo Albanians, few years ago when group of the Serbian kids was barbaricly killed while they were playing, sweimming in the river in the course of their summer holiday, by the use of machine gun there were no Kosovo Albanian's "Vojin Dimitrijevic" who had and would comndemned that barbaric act and had "diferrent" and comemorating or moral opinion!
Kosovo Albanians: as long as you don't develop real democratic society and as long as you do not decide to stop with this US sponsored bully behaviour we will keep you in the darkness of your quazi semi-independence.
So think and act respnsibly.Moraly groundless lessons by the essentially undemocratic bunch we will dismiss with resignation.
pre 14 godina
"..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table." (Ment)"
-- Ah, I've thought that many-a-time trying to argue with the Albanian side as well. Looks like such a statement is indeed an unfortunate, yet perennial, reality among both sides on this site.
pre 14 godina
MikeC
are you kidding me with that link.not even a schoolchild would read nor belive on that.
Jason, I was expecting your comment and you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge about everything in Kosovo. Are you sure that you were working for UNMIK?
By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.
pre 14 godina
As an Albanian, a guest in this site, I will tread very carefully with comments. I really liked this article though as I've read many on this site and it does concern me a little that this wasn't as biased as other have been (no pun intended.)
From a political aspect Serbia's gov't should at least issue some type of public address to the deaths, because, let's face it, citizens or not citizens, people did die in a tragic event. With that said, I am sure that if citizens of Serbia died elsewhere in the Balkans, a public statement should be followed, to let people know that this sort of problems are being addressed (even solely as public relation.)
I do understand though, if the gov't did issue a statement, it would seem as if they do relinquish or acknowledge a separate state of Kosovo/a.
To be in all fairness there is no need for Albanians or Serbians to continue to bombard each other with insults any longer, a war is no longer a viable option. Kosova is no longer in Serbia's control; nor is wholly being governed by Albanians solely. It is however being aided by Western Europeans and Americans until the issue is resolved through diplomatic means.
So, yes, Serbia should issue a statement concerning the deaths. It should at least respect the fact that people died at their border. It should not be racially or ethnically motivated, but, simply a statement of sympathy.
As an Albanian, I would expect my gov't to issue the same, regardless of the ethnicity; if not, I would be ashamed and see it as a direct insult to human life.
Most of you who press their opinions here always end up at the war. I am sorry, but, my opinion is addressed to the matter of those people who lose their lives and a gov't that issues no sympathy.
My question is: What if, instead, they were just Albanian tourists that drowned, what stance would Serbia's gov't then take?
Would it be as cold?
Just to answer someone's opinionated question of whether the US gov't issues any sympathy to Mexicans...the answer is yes. The State Department issues numerous condolences to the Mexican counterparts on a normal basis, but, furthermore, they continue to monitor the border more closely. Also, you cannot compare US/Mex. with the Balkans.
pre 14 godina
Olf
Did K-albanians appoligize for siding with the Nazis and the killing of 30.000 Serbs during WW2? If not, why?
"Many times Germans had to restrain their Moslem allies: "Bedri Pejani, the Muslim leader of the Albanian National Committee, called for the extermination of Orthodox Serbian Christians in Kosovo-Metohija and for a union of a Greater Albania with Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia into a Greater Islamic State."
http://www.kosovo.net/hist2.html
Don't hold your breath for an appology from Serbia. You should appologize for trying to steal our land.
pre 14 godina
Who sends condolences to themselves?
Serbia is not going to send condolences to Serbia when deaths occur. Kosovo is part of Serbia.
How simple is this and yet so many don't get it.
pre 14 godina
Jason...
Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
pre 14 godina
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 17:58)
--
Denis, lets be realistic for a second. Serbia has lost control of the K-Albanians but it certainly hasn't lost Kosovo. We have given you self-rule and allow you to run your parallel institutions. However, in those parts where Serbians form the majority we still run our own institutions. That accounts for about 35-40% of Kosovo so neither Serbians or ethnic Albanians have full control of the territory. Legally Kosovo remains Serbian so unless you guys are prepared to negotiate you will forever remain in a state of limbo.
If you think Serbia or Yugoslavia did nothing for K-Albanians then why did they live much better than Albanians in Albania proper?
You think ethnic Albanians have treated Serbians well? Look at the extent of your killings, ethnic cleansing and destruction in the province? And you did it to non-Serbians also so what is your excuse?
You can come to this Serbian site like other Albanians and keep spitting at us or you can attempt to start negotiating a peaceful co-existence with us. It's your choice but those that continue to spread hate and live in the past are keeping the whole region back.
pre 14 godina
Who said anything about Serbs loosing Kosovo?
Time is on Serbias side!
"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.
This is certainly a shift away from talk about "imposing" a solution and also carries with it some interesting conditional points: "both parties" need to agree, and any solution has to be both "sustainable" and "possible to implement."
Hidden criticism of Washington in this statement, that U.S. advocates for a unilateral recognition of self-declared independence would then have to be willing to sustain and implement this solution using American resources, rather than making commitments we would then expect Europeans to carry out? side!"
http://washingtonrealist.blogspot.com/2007/08/continuing-shift-in-european-positions.html
pre 14 godina
The drowning event was indeed a human tragedy.
But I'm curious to know if Thaci or Ceku ever issue statements of remorse/condolences when Serbs are murdered in Kosovo? Not being sarcastic here, I really want to know.
pre 14 godina
The irony is that the serb commentators that are challenging this article or the comments of albanians posters are actually confirming the points made in this article.
Please, do not mistake the comments from the albanian side as some kind of dissappointment or hurt that Serbia has not made any statement on the death of these people, including children.
We expect nothing less from Serbia - however all we are trying to do is point out the hypocrisy of Serbian goverment where on one hand they say Kosovo is Serbia and albanians will be respected and treated well if they join Serbia, but on the other hand they should complete disregard towards the death of more than a dozen of, what they are trying to make us believe, their 'own citizens'.
pre 14 godina
On 3 November 2009 14:41, Mike wrote: "No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities."
So true Mike. Similar tragic events happens daily with people try to cross the Mediterranean from Africa into Spain and Italy, or drown in the Atlantic while trying to gain entry into EU by landing on the Canaries. Or coming from the Middle East through Turkey only to drown in the Adriatic Sea trying to reach Greece.
--
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:18)
The question on everyone's mind, Zoran.
pre 14 godina
Surely interesting phenomenon : illegal state introduces the day of mourning for the death of illegal emigrants?
Actually quite understandable: few hundred thousands, and maybe even more, of present inhabitants of Kosovo are Albanians who illegally emigrated from Albania to Kosovo, Serbia with the secret blessing and closed eye by Tito in the period of 1945-1980. Consequently they managed to get away with committed crime and afterwards they managed to steal the territory of Serbia with now, not the secret, but orchestrated blessing from the West.
And of course…if the crime is not punished...it naturally becomes repetitive.
So spellbound reality of this Albanian illegal emigrants and their first generation ancestors presume that the World and Serbia should mourn illegal actions, crime and destruction of International Order.
As mentioned…once you got away with it and...NO MORE.
Serbians are naturally very sensitive concerning the question of illegal emigration, particularly if it comes from Albanian side. As illustrated above it is clear and no wonder why!
For Kosovo Albanians, as per advise, in their illegal state with no moral criteria’s it would be basic not to politicize the unfortunate death of this illegal emigrants.
In addition and BTW no objections, by this moral loving Kosovo Albanians, that Hungary and EU did not send its condolences? It concerns them equally as Serbia?
Kosovo Albanians…your bubbling here is morally groundless.
pre 14 godina
Olf
Next time you comment something the number of dead albanians would go from 15.000 to 150.000 dead. I guess it all depends on how much you've had to drink. As usual albanians make a claim without any proof. You might as well have said 15.000000.000000.000000.000 dead albanians.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
Olf, Sooner or later Kosova will file lawsuit against serbia at the Hague and then we'll see those brave serbs defending themselves, however the guilty verdict will come quick.
Serbs should pray and hope that either Croatia or Albania don't become EU members because if they do then Serbia has to say bye bye to EU.
pre 14 godina
The lack of remorse by Serbia is to be expected. Who needs your empty words anyway! Serbia continues to set these kinds of precedents in its realtions to Kosova and her citizens. I'm sure Kosova will reciprocate and the international community will take notice of what at best amounts to a lack of maturity on the Serb side and at worst well, we all know the docks at the Hague are full with one group in particular for a reason!
pre 14 godina
I am unmoved as well for those albanians knew there would be risks involved in this illegal migration, high risks which included drowning in the Danube.
Should the United States declare a day of mourning every time an illegal from Mexico dies in the desert trying to cross in to the US? NOPE!
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
More proof that Olf is an Albanian pretending to be an international working for some agency in Kosovo. I have worked in UNMIK and EULEX and the number of 15,000 dead Albanians has yet to come up. Good try but we are not buying.
pre 14 godina
RE: Politicizing a tragic event
If the Serbian government is guilty of not offering condolscences due to this tragic event than so are the the other political institutions, namely:
(1) EULEX
(2) UNMIK
(3) EU
pre 14 godina
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:31)
Are you joking? This article is the most realistic one I have seen in a while. When did Serbia ever care of K-Alb, or tried to represent their state, or gov or tried to be their country? Serbia never gave a big damn about K-Alb and always considered them as invadors or a population that did not belong there. Who are you kidding? Go read some history. Go see what was the Serbian state policy towards Albanians particulary in the 1930s.
What peace and prosperity did Serbia ever worked on for the region? Most of the war crimes in the ex-Yugo conflicts were commited by Serbs who have the highest number of the indicted war criminals in Hague many accused of genocide. All of the sudden you speak of peace and prosperity as if you have invented them.
This article is provoking Albanians, yet your state policies in decades, your ethnic cleansing, your killing of 10,000 K-alb in a matter of 2 months in 1999, the abolishment of autonomy, the persecution and hate we always received from serbs and serbian state, the war and destruction your state brought upon us .... those are not provoking?
Provoking is just a summer breeze for us, we are used to a lot worse coming from Serbia.
Sorry, I don't believe we can coexist together in any way, shape or form, not for a while at least.
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
pre 14 godina
Finally a decent article on here. It's good to see that not all Serbs live in a false reality.
pre 14 godina
I will let you be the judge on who they are.
(Dragan, 3 November 2009 15:23)
--
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
pre 14 godina
Mike,
1) "Eye for an eye - and the planet will be blind".
2) USA never does say, the Mexicans who cross Rio Grande illegally are American citizens. So there is no official mourning. These Albanians are officially Serbian citizens.
3) You can say, there is no official mourning in Mexico either. True. But finding body parts cooked in acid all over the city is not a daily practice in (ex)YU. Thank God, Belgrade is not Tijuana, not even Pristina is.
As long as that is the situation in Mexico, that country is firmly on my "ignore" list. Not the best example to follow for others, rather an example what NOT to do, the infamous US-MX border included.
pre 14 godina
Ajvalija,
What you write in your first posting is largely correct. But I felt, there was a good chance to send a proper message to ethnic Albanians Belgrade just missed. Let's hope it is more out of clumsiness, but this is not how it should be.
If I would be an Albanian living in, say, Subotica or Belgrade I would be pretty much unhappy and certainly think twice whom to support at the next vote.
As for your second posting - here (if I would be Albanian) I would be worried, does the State really takes care of me or not?
As myself as I am - I am not worried because I know the answer true for every country ( = fat cats don't care less). So we have to take care about ourself.
pre 14 godina
2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
(drini, 3 November 2009 14:29)
Not 100% but mostly agree with Drini. Say, to 95%.
Where I do disagree:
- the human trafficking is international business, here bosses can be from Moldova, Germany, Ukraine. I don't think Serbs are "mostly involved" in this case, but like Albanian traffickers they certainly had their hand in. Who is involved the most is the KPS / MUP job to figure out. I don't really care, just lock them up and throw the keys away
- technically the accident did happen in "not-lesser-democratic-state" of Hungary. Personally I think the smell of Hungarian or Russian fat cats is the same of Serbian or Albanian. It does not smell all to democratic to me but that's the "reality on the ground" here. We as "gastarbajteri" did volunteer to return from "not-lesser-corrupt" countries (Germany and USA) to this sorry place, so I should not complain. In any case the corruption in the West is no less, just the amounts in question are different. There is no other Planet Earth so we have to live here for now, hope many more decades in good health.
pre 14 godina
Of course it's a political statement. Does Washington express condolences for every Mexican who dies trying to cross the Rio Grande? Does even Mexico give a damn? And if we're going to play the humanitarian game, seeing as how Kosovo Serbs are technically regarded as citizens of Kosovo, do the yobs in Pristina declare days of mourning whenever elderly Serb couples are mysteriously found dead in their homes? Have the K Albanians declared days of mourning for all Serbs killed from Albanian revenge attacks from 1999?
Why, how many of our dear Neo-Illyrian cyber orcs attempt to rationalize on this site that those Serbs who are physically attacked by Albanians, allegedly "Europe's youngest democrats", are somehow deserving of such violence? How many Neo-Illyrians only yesterday called for the expulsion of not only Serbs, but all Slavs from Southeastern Europe, and from all of Europe?
And P(retty) R(idiculous) N(ationalist) says that Serbs have no respect for human beings.
pre 14 godina
Hmmm.....
In the last 800 years the relation between TataroMongols and Russians are a bit bumpy to say the least.
Now, imagine that a dozen or so Buryat-Mongols from Ulan-Ude or Tatars from Kazan die in an accident.
There WILL BE a day of mourning in Russia with flags half-way down and there WILL some heads of fat cats roll who could be responsible for the accident.
The fact there wasn't a reaction from BG shows, that they are clumsy at best.
To the (lame) excuse - a while ago to the 60th year of the Victory of Defending Fatherland (May 9th, 2005) even Germans sent a delegation to Moscow.
I was told, the only European country which was not present was Serbia. They forgot the anniversary.
Maybe this is a urban legend, but friends of mine from BG told it to me. If that is the case, it explains a lot and take it easy. As an excuse it is indeed lame, but better than nothing.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to apologize, I don't want Serbia to cry for me, I don't want Serbia to regret my tragedies, I don't want to be part of anything Serbian good or bad, I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
pre 14 godina
When it comes to Kosovo/a, all Serbia is interested in is TERRITORY and not people living in this territory. Do your remember guys during the last status negotiations I warned that the Serbian delegation will be "generous" towards Kosovar Albanian by "giving them everything" other than "for Albanians to be Serbian citizens"....I hope you rembember. In other words it is what Tadic calls "a compromise solution" towards Kosova/o))))
pre 14 godina
Let's have a look at who is this Vojin Dimitrijevic and his 'Belgrade Center for Human Rights' and where the funding comes from:
'The Belgrade Center for Human Rights (BCHR) has received NED assistance to encourage Serb academics, journalists and civic activists to participate directly in the formation of policy for the democratic political opposition in Serbia.'
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/news/ned-1.htm
So his group is funded by the NED, National Endowment for Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy
No wonder Dimitrijevic is quick to jump on the Serbian government for this non-issue, and keeps silent on the inhuman treatment of Kosovo's Serbs by the albanians. Kosovo Serbs have no freedom of movement, need military escorts to go shopping, can not speak Serbian in public without being attacked, get their gravestones overturned and their churches burned, have absolutely zero human rights..I guess this isn't enough to illicit a statement from this group of 'human rights' experts who are funded by the US government.
It all makes sense when you follow the money. There are many fifth columns inside of Serbia working for her destruction from within. I will let you be the judge on who they are.
pre 14 godina
Hey ben:
What does Serbia have to do with these people? How do you stop someone if they want to jump off a bridge? You can't. They were probobly escaping the extreme poverty of uck terrorist government.
On another note you say, "What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians." ben it was uck terrorists! Stop spreading lies!
pre 14 godina
Why should Belgrade feel or say anything, the same ppl with different masks today supported Milosevic's campaign to ethnic cleanse and use all means necessary to get rid of the indigenous population of Kosovo, you think they care if 15 civilians drowned while trying to cross over to Hungary, especially if they are Albanians? As much as I hope I'm wrong I bet most of Serbians officials laughed at this tragedy as they used to do when VJ went amok 98-99.
pre 14 godina
And btw mr loaf there are no first and second class citizens in our country. You separatist albanians reject your state but it doestn mean your state is giving up on you :) i think you feel it and know it every single day :)
pre 14 godina
THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
pre 14 godina
It is the first time that I write in this forum in English b92. I live in Prishtina.
there are 3 main reasons why Serbia should condole these victims, regardless of political case someone tries to draw here:
1. because even the most difficult time has been people in the side of Albanians and in the side of the Serbs who have communicated with each other, who have trusted each other and who have cooperated with each other. today their number grows each day.
in good and bad we have lived long together and today we strive together Europe
2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
pre 14 godina
It's unfortunate and sad on the level that these are people just trying to probably find better lives for themselves and couldn't give a crap about any political garbage. Everyday around the world, especially from Cuba and now even Sri Lanka, there are people who risk their lives to find new places to call home. No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities. That would be in a sense, condoning the act of illegal entry. In this day and age, it does not benefit any government to remark on such actions. The people who speak up about these things in a governmental fashion, are merely trying to look humanitarian and seek recognition from seemingly sympathetic remarks. Call it what you will. It's sad that they died but surely shouldn't be used as political pawns behind hidden agendas.
pre 14 godina
When albanians start mourning Serbian kids gunned down near schools in Kosovo,elders in their homes,give Serbian people in Kosovo basic human rights.Then maybe we will do the same that Croatian,Montenegrins and Bosnians did upon hearing of this tragic news.
pre 14 godina
Couple of things: first personally it was terrible news to hear what happened. terrible because people drowned and terrible because how the.. did they get as far as hungary border? I know these poor souls who drowned are not criminals terrorists and drug traffickers becuase criminals and terrorists dont try to escape from kosovo, kosovo is their kingdom. So these are regular desperate people and also our citizens.
Who, and that's my second point were still involved in criminal activity, so its a little different than when a bus full of tourists crashes. theres a huge risk with any criminal activity and people who do it accept that risk presumably. a horrible way to go and hopefully it will discourage others.
Also for our government to react or not to react we'll first need to know what happened exactly. We dont even know how many people died and who they are.
Also about 'experts' who gave their noble opinions in the article. They are truly not worth the money they get paid to say what they're saying so i'll say nothing more about them.
and our albanians, please dont stumble up and down hypocrite lane. some of the worst atrocities after world war 2 were committed by your compatriots. read about gnjilane massacres and the yellow house. thousands of serbs and albanians also were burned alive and butchered by Nato bombs, no apology no condolence no reparation no Nato commander in jail. nothing yet.
pre 14 godina
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future.
(nikshala, 3 November 2009 11:52)
ok, what now? does it go back for more than a century or just to the milosevic era? or is milosevic used just for the emotional impact? has "milosevic" become a word like "hitler", synonimous with "devil"? can any meaningful information be given to others in this way?
your post actually sounds very credible up to the point you mention milosevic.
pre 14 godina
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
(nikshala,
Nikshala, if you take the time to actually read my post you will notice that I said quite clearly that it is wrong when anyone dies. Please do not try to make me seem as though I have no feeling. What I am saying is that is absolutely not a political issue to be used by immoral politicians for heartless and meaningless political gain. Why would any politician in any country feel the need to voice any comment about such an event other than to try and gain some kind of empty points in some kind of immoral game? Let the dead rest in peace. Those involved were illegal immigrants who took a personal decision to try and illigaly enter a country via a very dangerous route. If you are so upset at the lack of any comment why would you not make a similar post each and every time any person has the misfortune to die whilst trying to enter any country illegaly? Please lets stick to discussing the real political issues and leave the dead alone. Nobody forced them to try what they tried and certainly nobody is to blame for what sadly happened.
pre 14 godina
On the other side, Priština needs to explain what kind of new Kosovo this is which people are risking their lives to get out of,” Dimitrijević said.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
typical kosovo. even ordinary albanians realise they will need to look for a better life somewhere else, which is why this tragedy happened in the first place.
on a more serious note, i do agree that serbia should show more empathy. we are constantly reminded by trolls on this site that albanian hatred of everything serbian is hysterical, but serbia needs to reach out to them. otherwise there is not much point in claiming that kosovo is serbia. if you want kosovo you have to accept people who live there as a part of your nation. and if you don't then give up on parts of kosovo populated by albanians and ask for partition. actually partition seems to me the most pragmatic solution even though parition along ethnic lines is never pretty.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
For those that say Kosovo is Serbia, this shows that in Serbia, there are Serbs from Serbia proper and other second class citizens, including Serbs from Kosovo.
And yes, it is the 21st century.
pre 14 godina
Serbia has no respect for human beings.
(PRN, 3 November 2009 11:31)
--
Wow, look who's talking. PRN yesterday stated that the Slavic race should be removed from Europe for the sake of peace. There are hundreds of millions of us living on about half the European continent and for the sake of about 5 million ethnic Albanians we should all go to Siberia. And PRN claims that we have no respect for human beings?
pre 14 godina
Kosovo Serb official Radmila Trajković also weighed in to say that “as a Serbian citizen and a citizen that lives in Kosovo” she would have liked to see the Serbian president express his condolences over the drowning victims.
EVERY SERB OUT OF KOSOVO!
we dont need and dont want any so called condolences from serbia
pre 14 godina
Radmila Trajković is an Albanian and USA/EU Mouth piece and does not truly represent a single Serb in Kosovo although one might think so because of the title bestowed upon her by not the Serbs but instead USA/EU. As far as having a possible day of mourning in Serbia for drowned Albanians who tried illegally to cross the border, why? This nonsense makes no sense at all.
pre 14 godina
Pathetic and groundless attack on Serbian Government and its Officials.
I have never manage to hear that other Governments Officials (let’s say Italian, Greek, Australian, US or…) in the similar cases and situations, of the unfortunate death of illegal emigrants who were violating the International Laws in order to entrance their countries illegally, (in this case even with forged passports which makes them serious Law offenders) have ever issued the statement of condolences, neither they are morally bounded to do so.
However this was an tragic and unfortunate accident, this same people (15 or 16 of them) where the serious criminal offenders, acting and aware of their criminal doings, who would be soon or later caught and would and should face a serious set of legal charges. Official Government condolences in this kind of cases are not the matter of consideration anywhere Worldwide.
On the other side, “Kosovo Albanians Government” introduced day of mourning is hypocrite and morally pathetic act which uses and misuses the death of this unfortunate illegal emigrants for daily politizations: simply said do provide them with jobs and decent conditions for living in the areas under your governing and they would not be having any legitimate reasons to leave their homes and violate International Laws.
Equally and in addition, non-Governmental organizations, like Center for Human Rights and their Director Vojin Dimitrijević, should be able to distinguish codes of legal conduct, and adequate acts of Governments dealings in the civilized World, before they decide to come out with their groundless ridiculous statements aimed on self-promotion and not on the fundaments of the issue.
pre 14 godina
Why oh why oh why would anyone wish to make political comment about such an incident? How does anyone manage to make a sensible connection between Belgrade not showing support for illegal immigrants and their stance on the illegal UDI. I am amazed that this comment was even considered let alone made and reported! Please focus on real issues and stop wasting everyones time with such inane comments! Of course it is wrong when anyone dies but any political connection is completely unwelcome and sounds like desperation.
pre 14 godina
This is NO different than Milosevic politics! The current government still WANTS Kosovo land, plus parts of Bosnia etc), but without the Albanians or Bosnians or Croats or any other non - Serb...hence NOTHING CHANGED IN TEN YEARS SINCE MILOSEVIC!!! Nationalism, and in this case 'not sending condoclances' = as if killed by the hand of Milosevic a.k.a. the current government.
pre 14 godina
UK, how right you are. This is a bitter piece of spin used to create an issue out of something that doesn't even exist.
Our ethnic Albanian citizens would not have even expected a response until now and I expect them to be infuriated. If they wanted their president to respond then they should have said something earlier - except they don't consider him their president.
Kosovo is administered by the UN but I didn't hear a response from the secretary general or even the security council. Now we have all these people living in the past, like ZagorTeNeJ, who will fall for this spin and make an issue out of nothing. The simple fact is - Kosovo is legally Serbian land, true, but we have given our ethnic Albanian citizens self-rule so we do not need to respond to all of their internal issues. If they are prepared to die for this piece of land then why are they dying to escape it?
This article comes in poor taste. Shame on B92.
pre 14 godina
1....Belgrade Center for Human Rights Director Vojin Dimitrijević said it amounts to “another in a long line of symptoms which do not point to the fact that this is a decent country”.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
2. “This is another symptom, this time it is a complete lack of empathy.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
3. Analyst Vladimir Todorić said that Kosovo Albanians "are not Serbian citizens" and that they "do not wish to be".
“No one in Kosovo will be upset over the fact that Belgrade did not proclaim a day of mourning, or even sent a telegram of condolences, or reacted to the tragedy in any way.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
Typical Serbia. You are mirrored to the world just the way you are. Even local Serbs are beggining to realise that they Serbia has no respect for human beings.
pre 14 godina
From an albanian perspective, there is really nothing more to add, this article says it all.
UK,
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future. The posts from serb commentators attest to that.
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
pre 14 godina
Why would they? What has this got to do with Serbs??!?
pre 14 godina
Only the stupid would make light of this human tragedy and that is what it is.
May they rest in peace.
pre 14 godina
Olf is still embarrassed by his spanking here because he is STILL going.
pre 14 godina
Why oh why oh why would anyone wish to make political comment about such an incident? How does anyone manage to make a sensible connection between Belgrade not showing support for illegal immigrants and their stance on the illegal UDI. I am amazed that this comment was even considered let alone made and reported! Please focus on real issues and stop wasting everyones time with such inane comments! Of course it is wrong when anyone dies but any political connection is completely unwelcome and sounds like desperation.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
More proof that Olf is an Albanian pretending to be an international working for some agency in Kosovo. I have worked in UNMIK and EULEX and the number of 15,000 dead Albanians has yet to come up. Good try but we are not buying.
pre 14 godina
Why would they? What has this got to do with Serbs??!?
pre 14 godina
Ajvalija and Peggy,
Thank you for illustrating the obvious weaknesses of Olf's ridiculous claims. I have numerous Serbian friends that either dislike my government and/or dislike EULEX. Never once have they taken out their feelings on me as an individual - unlike many Albanian posters here who despise all Russians, Romanians, (or as we have seen recently, Ukranians) because of their national politics.
I have been invited to countless slavas in Serbian homes in places like Zvecan, Zubin Potok, and Mitrovica. Despite how dangerous these places are as claimed by "Olf" I have found that to be quite the opposite.
And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today. Go ahead, let the hate mail begin!
pre 14 godina
1....Belgrade Center for Human Rights Director Vojin Dimitrijević said it amounts to “another in a long line of symptoms which do not point to the fact that this is a decent country”.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
2. “This is another symptom, this time it is a complete lack of empathy.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
3. Analyst Vladimir Todorić said that Kosovo Albanians "are not Serbian citizens" and that they "do not wish to be".
“No one in Kosovo will be upset over the fact that Belgrade did not proclaim a day of mourning, or even sent a telegram of condolences, or reacted to the tragedy in any way.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
Typical Serbia. You are mirrored to the world just the way you are. Even local Serbs are beggining to realise that they Serbia has no respect for human beings.
pre 14 godina
This is NO different than Milosevic politics! The current government still WANTS Kosovo land, plus parts of Bosnia etc), but without the Albanians or Bosnians or Croats or any other non - Serb...hence NOTHING CHANGED IN TEN YEARS SINCE MILOSEVIC!!! Nationalism, and in this case 'not sending condoclances' = as if killed by the hand of Milosevic a.k.a. the current government.
pre 14 godina
Only the stupid would make light of this human tragedy and that is what it is.
May they rest in peace.
pre 14 godina
Let's have a look at who is this Vojin Dimitrijevic and his 'Belgrade Center for Human Rights' and where the funding comes from:
'The Belgrade Center for Human Rights (BCHR) has received NED assistance to encourage Serb academics, journalists and civic activists to participate directly in the formation of policy for the democratic political opposition in Serbia.'
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/news/ned-1.htm
So his group is funded by the NED, National Endowment for Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy
No wonder Dimitrijevic is quick to jump on the Serbian government for this non-issue, and keeps silent on the inhuman treatment of Kosovo's Serbs by the albanians. Kosovo Serbs have no freedom of movement, need military escorts to go shopping, can not speak Serbian in public without being attacked, get their gravestones overturned and their churches burned, have absolutely zero human rights..I guess this isn't enough to illicit a statement from this group of 'human rights' experts who are funded by the US government.
It all makes sense when you follow the money. There are many fifth columns inside of Serbia working for her destruction from within. I will let you be the judge on who they are.
pre 14 godina
UK, how right you are. This is a bitter piece of spin used to create an issue out of something that doesn't even exist.
Our ethnic Albanian citizens would not have even expected a response until now and I expect them to be infuriated. If they wanted their president to respond then they should have said something earlier - except they don't consider him their president.
Kosovo is administered by the UN but I didn't hear a response from the secretary general or even the security council. Now we have all these people living in the past, like ZagorTeNeJ, who will fall for this spin and make an issue out of nothing. The simple fact is - Kosovo is legally Serbian land, true, but we have given our ethnic Albanian citizens self-rule so we do not need to respond to all of their internal issues. If they are prepared to die for this piece of land then why are they dying to escape it?
This article comes in poor taste. Shame on B92.
pre 14 godina
If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
(Nelli currently in Kosova, 4 November 2009 12:22)
Typical comment from an arrogant Albanian. “Oh, there is no way that an American who worked for UNMIK could ever possibly not listen to his government and take the Serbian side over the Albanian one!” Nelli, if it makes you feel better to say this, be my guest.
As for Oaf…
“I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.”
- If you have, Olf, then you are a hypocrite. How could you have ANY Serbian friends after you spew hate and rubbish against Serbs here on a regular basis. Unless you are of course two-faced and you don’t tell them how you really are. Furthermore, unlike you, I don’t rely on EU Security to tell me what is and what is not safe. I decide for myself. I suggest you try the same.
“As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.”
(Olf, 4 November 2009 12:23)
- Olf, are you that ignorant? I don’t know how you can consider hospitals, schools, passenger trains, radio and television stations, and factories to be of the “Milosevic army.” I suggest you stop drinking the cool aid and start checking your facts. All this said, however, I applaud your promise to stop exchanging posts with me. It is tiresome proving you wrong so often.
pre 14 godina
Serbia has no respect for human beings.
(PRN, 3 November 2009 11:31)
--
Wow, look who's talking. PRN yesterday stated that the Slavic race should be removed from Europe for the sake of peace. There are hundreds of millions of us living on about half the European continent and for the sake of about 5 million ethnic Albanians we should all go to Siberia. And PRN claims that we have no respect for human beings?
pre 14 godina
When albanians start mourning Serbian kids gunned down near schools in Kosovo,elders in their homes,give Serbian people in Kosovo basic human rights.Then maybe we will do the same that Croatian,Montenegrins and Bosnians did upon hearing of this tragic news.
pre 14 godina
"And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today.
(Jason, 4 November 2009 10:54) "
I completely agree with this statement and more Americans are waking up to the fact that what we did to Serbia was wrong.
To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
pre 14 godina
It's unfortunate and sad on the level that these are people just trying to probably find better lives for themselves and couldn't give a crap about any political garbage. Everyday around the world, especially from Cuba and now even Sri Lanka, there are people who risk their lives to find new places to call home. No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities. That would be in a sense, condoning the act of illegal entry. In this day and age, it does not benefit any government to remark on such actions. The people who speak up about these things in a governmental fashion, are merely trying to look humanitarian and seek recognition from seemingly sympathetic remarks. Call it what you will. It's sad that they died but surely shouldn't be used as political pawns behind hidden agendas.
pre 14 godina
I cant understand why all this discussion for a non-existent subject. We have people like Dimitrijevic and "Belgrade Center for Human Rights" here in Greece too. They speak only to "protect" everybody else's human rights except the greeks.When some albanian tries to cross illegally and drowns, the serbs should feel guilty but no word on the everyday violation of serb rights in Kosovo by Albanians. I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
pre 14 godina
To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
Very true. I can even pull up Gen. (Weasel) Wesley Clark's own words about how they wanted to make civilians' lives miserable...
pre 14 godina
Ment
>I have no idea what slavas are.
Its when we get together with albanians like olf to have fun.
>In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked.
If the war didn't start on 24 march 1999 it was another date.
Selected reading from records. One of these dates?
21 april 1996:Serb Blagoje Okulic was sitting with a friend in a cafe when a masked member of the KLA opened fire on the customers with an automatic weapon. Okulic and two other guest latter died in hospital. He was the first victim of the KLA.
16 June 1996 police patrol was attacked by KLA near Podujevo and police officer Goran Mitrovic was heavily wounded.
25 October 1996 two police officers were killed by automatic weapons near the village of Surkis in the Podujevo municipality Milos Nikolic (34), a police inspector of the Pristina Precinct, and Dragan Rakic from the village of Velika Reka, who was a police officer in the reserves and a manager of a company in Podujevo. KLA terrorist killed police officer Milos Nikolic in the front of his house.
Maybe the war started in the year 1997. 21 march in the center of Podujevo. KLA terrorists fired five shots at police officer Branislav Milovanovic, wounding him heavily.
In 1998? 15 february: Nik Abdulahu, an ethnic Albanian employee of the Serbia Electric Utility, was shot and killed while at work, at the electricity substation in the village of Staro Cikatovo near Glogovac.
April 29: A group of terrorists on night attacked a Serb police patrol near the village of Dulje, the clash left one policeman seriously wounded and other Sasa Jovanovic (26), was killed as unidentified persons opened fire with a hand-held rocket launcher at the police post at Dulje from a several-hundred-meter distance. Ethnic Albanians demolished cars of foreign journalist in Pristina hotel "Grand", which didn’t support their cause.
43 Kla terrorist attacks and incidents in 96 and 97, over 200 in 98.
Maybe the war started in 1980s when albanian separatist organised bloody demonstrations in Pristina. Or maybe later when they intimidated Serbs, raping and killing them and poisoning their wells and animals.
http://www.kunstradio.at/WAR/binder-nytimes.html
>show quite a casualness to butchery
I'm casual only to your baseless antiserb ranting and propaganda, lies and demonisation of serb army and police. We madam fought against richest countries but moral midgets and that's why we held on for 78 days and could've done it for at least 78 more. Serb army and police was undefeated in battlefield. Like i said i wish we fought first clean war in history. But we couldnt and some crimes like in any war happened. Paramils who did crimes are in court or in jail. And another thing. Nobody who knows anything about war uses words like collateral damage for butchered civilians, because it's disrespectful. You madam do.
pre 14 godina
Wrong again,robby,
Kosovo is still part of Serbia according to UN1244,only occupied.
pre 14 godina
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
(nikshala,
Nikshala, if you take the time to actually read my post you will notice that I said quite clearly that it is wrong when anyone dies. Please do not try to make me seem as though I have no feeling. What I am saying is that is absolutely not a political issue to be used by immoral politicians for heartless and meaningless political gain. Why would any politician in any country feel the need to voice any comment about such an event other than to try and gain some kind of empty points in some kind of immoral game? Let the dead rest in peace. Those involved were illegal immigrants who took a personal decision to try and illigaly enter a country via a very dangerous route. If you are so upset at the lack of any comment why would you not make a similar post each and every time any person has the misfortune to die whilst trying to enter any country illegaly? Please lets stick to discussing the real political issues and leave the dead alone. Nobody forced them to try what they tried and certainly nobody is to blame for what sadly happened.
pre 14 godina
Olf the slava going albanian:
As an albanian i hope you enjoyed crossing yourself in front of the candle. I sure would enjoy watching it. We celebrate 21 november, consider yourself invited :)
Anyway while we talk about national traditions, we serbs have slavas, you albanians have blood feuds. I've seen a few of those too.
Ment, i guess you dont go to any slavas:
'Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics… bla bla sorry bla..
Nato started illegally attacking our country on march 24 1999 in the evening hours hitting a village near pristine and airport in kraljevo if I remember correctly. After that the war broke out. That’s the chronology that all honest people should pay attention to. Nato attack caused the war in Kosovo. The war in Kosovo started after Nato started its war against Serbia, not before.
You might want to read this
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5570
And if we deliberately scorched you, whatever, you would know it believe me. Give the propaganda a rest and look at the fact of our counterterrorist operations since 96. Look at how stupidly and irresponsibly patient and restrained we were for years with albanian terror in kosovo.
pre 14 godina
Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
Army trains? It was a CIVILIAN passenger train, Einstein. Civilian deaths were from Milosevic using people as shields?! Yeah, like in the old folks’ home and hospitals? You have ZERO credibility. Furthermore, I really doubt someone who has supposedly worked for over 10 years in an international organization in Russia and Kosovo would be as misinformed as you are.
pre 14 godina
Olf, you belong in the zero credibility bin just like roberto. Always justifying NATOs crime, ignoring ethnic Albanian crimes but highlighting propaganda against Serbians.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
For those that say Kosovo is Serbia, this shows that in Serbia, there are Serbs from Serbia proper and other second class citizens, including Serbs from Kosovo.
And yes, it is the 21st century.
pre 14 godina
It is the first time that I write in this forum in English b92. I live in Prishtina.
there are 3 main reasons why Serbia should condole these victims, regardless of political case someone tries to draw here:
1. because even the most difficult time has been people in the side of Albanians and in the side of the Serbs who have communicated with each other, who have trusted each other and who have cooperated with each other. today their number grows each day.
in good and bad we have lived long together and today we strive together Europe
2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
pre 14 godina
Of course it's a political statement. Does Washington express condolences for every Mexican who dies trying to cross the Rio Grande? Does even Mexico give a damn? And if we're going to play the humanitarian game, seeing as how Kosovo Serbs are technically regarded as citizens of Kosovo, do the yobs in Pristina declare days of mourning whenever elderly Serb couples are mysteriously found dead in their homes? Have the K Albanians declared days of mourning for all Serbs killed from Albanian revenge attacks from 1999?
Why, how many of our dear Neo-Illyrian cyber orcs attempt to rationalize on this site that those Serbs who are physically attacked by Albanians, allegedly "Europe's youngest democrats", are somehow deserving of such violence? How many Neo-Illyrians only yesterday called for the expulsion of not only Serbs, but all Slavs from Southeastern Europe, and from all of Europe?
And P(retty) R(idiculous) N(ationalist) says that Serbs have no respect for human beings.
pre 14 godina
To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
--
Absolutely, NATO bombed Serbian and ethnic Albanian civilians and NATO was unmoved by those deaths.
Who remembers these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/320204.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/337989.stm
http://www.cnn.org/WORLD/europe/9905/09/kosovo.02/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/357609.stm
http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/archives2/041399/top.html
pre 14 godina
Thanks for the links, Zoran. They saved me time digging them up for a research paper I am working on. I guess Oaf put his foot in his mouth yet again.
pre 14 godina
From an albanian perspective, there is really nothing more to add, this article says it all.
UK,
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future. The posts from serb commentators attest to that.
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
pre 14 godina
Radmila Trajković is an Albanian and USA/EU Mouth piece and does not truly represent a single Serb in Kosovo although one might think so because of the title bestowed upon her by not the Serbs but instead USA/EU. As far as having a possible day of mourning in Serbia for drowned Albanians who tried illegally to cross the border, why? This nonsense makes no sense at all.
pre 14 godina
Hey ben:
What does Serbia have to do with these people? How do you stop someone if they want to jump off a bridge? You can't. They were probobly escaping the extreme poverty of uck terrorist government.
On another note you say, "What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians." ben it was uck terrorists! Stop spreading lies!
pre 14 godina
Roberto,
Luckily you have no point. And luckily, I can understand Serbian to a degree I can read the Serbian forum on B92.
What Serbs say there is pretty much the same I do.
And there is no Albanian-Serbian quarrel there.
http://www.b92.net/info/komentari.php?nav_id=390254
And here: shame on both sides who again try to prove their "opanak-versus-fustanella" theories on the occasion that some unfortunate people died.
At last, Roberto has the valid excuse, he does not understand Serbian. But the others? Mine (Serbian) is poor but at least I try to understand.
Not knowing - and posting (as usual) violent anti-Serbian essay due lack of knowledge - is just an excuse.
As it was written:
"Ali hvala od naroda Srbije sto ne misli tako kako misli njihova Vlada."
And as Milan writes - I am joining him:
"a porodicama nastradalih iskreno saucesce!"
But I want to see the traffickers who collected 8000 Euro / family behind the bars for good 15 years and I don't care where: in Kiev, Pristina, Belgrade... lock them up and make them suffer for 15 years.
pre 14 godina
ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
(Olf, 5 November 2009 09:19)
Coming from a person who is feeling more than a little humiliated for the virtual spanking he got here in this thread. I have lost count of how many times you have contradicted yourself and outright fabricated information. I would be embarrassed too.
pre 14 godina
Pathetic and groundless attack on Serbian Government and its Officials.
I have never manage to hear that other Governments Officials (let’s say Italian, Greek, Australian, US or…) in the similar cases and situations, of the unfortunate death of illegal emigrants who were violating the International Laws in order to entrance their countries illegally, (in this case even with forged passports which makes them serious Law offenders) have ever issued the statement of condolences, neither they are morally bounded to do so.
However this was an tragic and unfortunate accident, this same people (15 or 16 of them) where the serious criminal offenders, acting and aware of their criminal doings, who would be soon or later caught and would and should face a serious set of legal charges. Official Government condolences in this kind of cases are not the matter of consideration anywhere Worldwide.
On the other side, “Kosovo Albanians Government” introduced day of mourning is hypocrite and morally pathetic act which uses and misuses the death of this unfortunate illegal emigrants for daily politizations: simply said do provide them with jobs and decent conditions for living in the areas under your governing and they would not be having any legitimate reasons to leave their homes and violate International Laws.
Equally and in addition, non-Governmental organizations, like Center for Human Rights and their Director Vojin Dimitrijević, should be able to distinguish codes of legal conduct, and adequate acts of Governments dealings in the civilized World, before they decide to come out with their groundless ridiculous statements aimed on self-promotion and not on the fundaments of the issue.
pre 14 godina
I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
(Nikos, 4 November 2009 11:43)
--
It's simple. He gets paid by the US and he follows their agenda.
pre 14 godina
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
yeah, right. don't blame the people who did the killing, blame the people who failed to prevent it. it makes perfect sense. and people who use the human shields excuse are disgusting. did you know that german colonial army used that excuse during the massacre of the herero people in what is today namibia? old story. and how did bombing of bridges in novi sad prevent the serbian army from harming civilians in a completely different part of the country?
when i read reports about the bombing of the tv station back in 1999 it was the first time in my life that i saw a war crime being reported in the media without people calling it what it was - a war crime. it was announced that a civilian target was deliberately targetted. other civilian targets were also hit, but you could claim that it was not deliberate.
pre 14 godina
1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 18:53)
no, darling, i will never want to understand you. because people killed were no criminals. war crimes do make me sick, regardless of who committed them. which makes me different from yourself. you love war crimes as long as they are justified properly. which is entirely human. i do not believe that war ciminals are animals, you see, they are human. they just believe that there is a justification for what they do. just like you. and that's entirely human. it sucks nevertheless.
kthxbye
pre 14 godina
The irony is that the serb commentators that are challenging this article or the comments of albanians posters are actually confirming the points made in this article.
Please, do not mistake the comments from the albanian side as some kind of dissappointment or hurt that Serbia has not made any statement on the death of these people, including children.
We expect nothing less from Serbia - however all we are trying to do is point out the hypocrisy of Serbian goverment where on one hand they say Kosovo is Serbia and albanians will be respected and treated well if they join Serbia, but on the other hand they should complete disregard towards the death of more than a dozen of, what they are trying to make us believe, their 'own citizens'.
pre 14 godina
>Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
What?! help me somebody.
>Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Its just there's no reason. Nobody else hides nationality as far as i see. I just dont know why you do.
>of Kovova and yuor English is excellent
thanks, yours is too. I also shower every day and can switch on computer. You should hear me speak albanian. tell your girlfriend about me :)
>Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina
And kosovo is serbia. I know, i know.
pre 14 godina
THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
pre 14 godina
as a citizen of the eu i strongly condemn the "fortress europe" policies that have resulted in countless deaths and much suffering of the poor who are desperately trying to reach europe in search for better life. where they are coming from is irrelevant. i am also strongly opposed to deporting refugees back to kosovo, especially of children who have spent most of their lives in europe and for who kosovo is a foreign country.
it is also sad to see serbs and albanians fighting again even though in this case the main culprit is clearly someone else.
pre 14 godina
RE: Politicizing a tragic event
If the Serbian government is guilty of not offering condolscences due to this tragic event than so are the the other political institutions, namely:
(1) EULEX
(2) UNMIK
(3) EU
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:18)
The question on everyone's mind, Zoran.
pre 14 godina
As tragic as this event was, the same thing happens regularly on the US border with Mexico, and nobody even mentions it as news, let alone having a day of mourning. In fact, a disproportionate number of Black Americans are murdered daily, with barely a mention on the news. The reason perhaps is that these events are so common place that they are given little attention, or it could be that these poor individuals are members of a lower socioeconomic class and therefore the media or government dosen't really pay much attention to it. I'm afraid it's the same with the Albanians whom died on the illegal border crossing.
pre 14 godina
On the other side, Priština needs to explain what kind of new Kosovo this is which people are risking their lives to get out of,” Dimitrijević said.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
typical kosovo. even ordinary albanians realise they will need to look for a better life somewhere else, which is why this tragedy happened in the first place.
on a more serious note, i do agree that serbia should show more empathy. we are constantly reminded by trolls on this site that albanian hatred of everything serbian is hysterical, but serbia needs to reach out to them. otherwise there is not much point in claiming that kosovo is serbia. if you want kosovo you have to accept people who live there as a part of your nation. and if you don't then give up on parts of kosovo populated by albanians and ask for partition. actually partition seems to me the most pragmatic solution even though parition along ethnic lines is never pretty.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to apologize, I don't want Serbia to cry for me, I don't want Serbia to regret my tragedies, I don't want to be part of anything Serbian good or bad, I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
pre 14 godina
I am unmoved as well for those albanians knew there would be risks involved in this illegal migration, high risks which included drowning in the Danube.
Should the United States declare a day of mourning every time an illegal from Mexico dies in the desert trying to cross in to the US? NOPE!
pre 14 godina
Finally a decent article on here. It's good to see that not all Serbs live in a false reality.
pre 14 godina
I will let you be the judge on who they are.
(Dragan, 3 November 2009 15:23)
--
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
Olf, Sooner or later Kosova will file lawsuit against serbia at the Hague and then we'll see those brave serbs defending themselves, however the guilty verdict will come quick.
Serbs should pray and hope that either Croatia or Albania don't become EU members because if they do then Serbia has to say bye bye to EU.
pre 14 godina
Olf
Did K-albanians appoligize for siding with the Nazis and the killing of 30.000 Serbs during WW2? If not, why?
"Many times Germans had to restrain their Moslem allies: "Bedri Pejani, the Muslim leader of the Albanian National Committee, called for the extermination of Orthodox Serbian Christians in Kosovo-Metohija and for a union of a Greater Albania with Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia into a Greater Islamic State."
http://www.kosovo.net/hist2.html
Don't hold your breath for an appology from Serbia. You should appologize for trying to steal our land.
pre 14 godina
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future.
(nikshala, 3 November 2009 11:52)
ok, what now? does it go back for more than a century or just to the milosevic era? or is milosevic used just for the emotional impact? has "milosevic" become a word like "hitler", synonimous with "devil"? can any meaningful information be given to others in this way?
your post actually sounds very credible up to the point you mention milosevic.
pre 14 godina
Olf
Next time you comment something the number of dead albanians would go from 15.000 to 150.000 dead. I guess it all depends on how much you've had to drink. As usual albanians make a claim without any proof. You might as well have said 15.000000.000000.000000.000 dead albanians.
pre 14 godina
The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
(Ylber, 4 November 2009 19:18)
Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed.
But this sentence is plain wrong for a simple reason: face it or not, Kosovo is not to a lesser degree Serbian than Albanian.
Time to time who has the upper hand does try eradicate the other party. What you wrote is nothing else, just imposing on Serbs the Albanian wish. They won't accept it and wait till they will have the upper hand - if it takes 500 years, than 500 years.
The only way to finish this conflict is not to make more borders, but to make less.
In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
Which force works now on more partition is up to you to realize.
pre 14 godina
Last week a k-a died in Switzerland fleeing after having being asked by the police to show his papers.
There wasn't any political statement due to this unfortunate event.
I don't know whether anyone would expect any political statement after an unfortunate death.
I have never heard Berlusconi making any statement whereas so many died at the Italian door steps, same for Spain, Cyprus, Greece etc....
It is indeed a terrible tragedy among so many tragedies that are happening every day all around the world...
For the K-a posters to take this as a tool to throw more stones on the Serbs is not only completely displaced but disgusting.
You guys really have nothing else better to do for your dream land where nobody wants to go back and where entire families are trying to escape.
It is about time that you start taking the broom and clean a bit your house if ever you want it to be recognized as a house and not as a sort of second zone campus!
pre 14 godina
Kosovo Serb official Radmila Trajković also weighed in to say that “as a Serbian citizen and a citizen that lives in Kosovo” she would have liked to see the Serbian president express his condolences over the drowning victims.
EVERY SERB OUT OF KOSOVO!
we dont need and dont want any so called condolences from serbia
pre 14 godina
2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
(drini, 3 November 2009 14:29)
Not 100% but mostly agree with Drini. Say, to 95%.
Where I do disagree:
- the human trafficking is international business, here bosses can be from Moldova, Germany, Ukraine. I don't think Serbs are "mostly involved" in this case, but like Albanian traffickers they certainly had their hand in. Who is involved the most is the KPS / MUP job to figure out. I don't really care, just lock them up and throw the keys away
- technically the accident did happen in "not-lesser-democratic-state" of Hungary. Personally I think the smell of Hungarian or Russian fat cats is the same of Serbian or Albanian. It does not smell all to democratic to me but that's the "reality on the ground" here. We as "gastarbajteri" did volunteer to return from "not-lesser-corrupt" countries (Germany and USA) to this sorry place, so I should not complain. In any case the corruption in the West is no less, just the amounts in question are different. There is no other Planet Earth so we have to live here for now, hope many more decades in good health.
pre 14 godina
And btw mr loaf there are no first and second class citizens in our country. You separatist albanians reject your state but it doestn mean your state is giving up on you :) i think you feel it and know it every single day :)
pre 14 godina
On 3 November 2009 14:41, Mike wrote: "No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities."
So true Mike. Similar tragic events happens daily with people try to cross the Mediterranean from Africa into Spain and Italy, or drown in the Atlantic while trying to gain entry into EU by landing on the Canaries. Or coming from the Middle East through Turkey only to drown in the Adriatic Sea trying to reach Greece.
--
pre 14 godina
The drowning event was indeed a human tragedy.
But I'm curious to know if Thaci or Ceku ever issue statements of remorse/condolences when Serbs are murdered in Kosovo? Not being sarcastic here, I really want to know.
pre 14 godina
As an Albanian, a guest in this site, I will tread very carefully with comments. I really liked this article though as I've read many on this site and it does concern me a little that this wasn't as biased as other have been (no pun intended.)
From a political aspect Serbia's gov't should at least issue some type of public address to the deaths, because, let's face it, citizens or not citizens, people did die in a tragic event. With that said, I am sure that if citizens of Serbia died elsewhere in the Balkans, a public statement should be followed, to let people know that this sort of problems are being addressed (even solely as public relation.)
I do understand though, if the gov't did issue a statement, it would seem as if they do relinquish or acknowledge a separate state of Kosovo/a.
To be in all fairness there is no need for Albanians or Serbians to continue to bombard each other with insults any longer, a war is no longer a viable option. Kosova is no longer in Serbia's control; nor is wholly being governed by Albanians solely. It is however being aided by Western Europeans and Americans until the issue is resolved through diplomatic means.
So, yes, Serbia should issue a statement concerning the deaths. It should at least respect the fact that people died at their border. It should not be racially or ethnically motivated, but, simply a statement of sympathy.
As an Albanian, I would expect my gov't to issue the same, regardless of the ethnicity; if not, I would be ashamed and see it as a direct insult to human life.
Most of you who press their opinions here always end up at the war. I am sorry, but, my opinion is addressed to the matter of those people who lose their lives and a gov't that issues no sympathy.
My question is: What if, instead, they were just Albanian tourists that drowned, what stance would Serbia's gov't then take?
Would it be as cold?
Just to answer someone's opinionated question of whether the US gov't issues any sympathy to Mexicans...the answer is yes. The State Department issues numerous condolences to the Mexican counterparts on a normal basis, but, furthermore, they continue to monitor the border more closely. Also, you cannot compare US/Mex. with the Balkans.
pre 14 godina
'Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
(Ment, 3 November 2009 20:22)
Your point please, madam? 'jason' is in serbia and so am i. we come across various mental loafs and we disagree with them. So that per se disqualifies someone?
Theres a lot of trolling going on in cyber city and claiming 15 k dead albanians from the war that albanian terrorists started falls in that category. It's propaganda and has nothing to do with reality. Also we hear 12 k and sometimes 20. So could albanians settle on one number?
Also I'm sorry serbs couldnt be the first in history of mankind to fight a pretty little all clean war where noone gets hurt and i'm glad we definitely didnt kill 12, 15 or 20,000 of them.
End of story.
pre 14 godina
"And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova? [sic](Zoti)"
-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
pre 14 godina
Mike,
1) "Eye for an eye - and the planet will be blind".
2) USA never does say, the Mexicans who cross Rio Grande illegally are American citizens. So there is no official mourning. These Albanians are officially Serbian citizens.
3) You can say, there is no official mourning in Mexico either. True. But finding body parts cooked in acid all over the city is not a daily practice in (ex)YU. Thank God, Belgrade is not Tijuana, not even Pristina is.
As long as that is the situation in Mexico, that country is firmly on my "ignore" list. Not the best example to follow for others, rather an example what NOT to do, the infamous US-MX border included.
pre 14 godina
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:31)
Are you joking? This article is the most realistic one I have seen in a while. When did Serbia ever care of K-Alb, or tried to represent their state, or gov or tried to be their country? Serbia never gave a big damn about K-Alb and always considered them as invadors or a population that did not belong there. Who are you kidding? Go read some history. Go see what was the Serbian state policy towards Albanians particulary in the 1930s.
What peace and prosperity did Serbia ever worked on for the region? Most of the war crimes in the ex-Yugo conflicts were commited by Serbs who have the highest number of the indicted war criminals in Hague many accused of genocide. All of the sudden you speak of peace and prosperity as if you have invented them.
This article is provoking Albanians, yet your state policies in decades, your ethnic cleansing, your killing of 10,000 K-alb in a matter of 2 months in 1999, the abolishment of autonomy, the persecution and hate we always received from serbs and serbian state, the war and destruction your state brought upon us .... those are not provoking?
Provoking is just a summer breeze for us, we are used to a lot worse coming from Serbia.
Sorry, I don't believe we can coexist together in any way, shape or form, not for a while at least.
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
pre 14 godina
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 17:58)
--
Denis, lets be realistic for a second. Serbia has lost control of the K-Albanians but it certainly hasn't lost Kosovo. We have given you self-rule and allow you to run your parallel institutions. However, in those parts where Serbians form the majority we still run our own institutions. That accounts for about 35-40% of Kosovo so neither Serbians or ethnic Albanians have full control of the territory. Legally Kosovo remains Serbian so unless you guys are prepared to negotiate you will forever remain in a state of limbo.
If you think Serbia or Yugoslavia did nothing for K-Albanians then why did they live much better than Albanians in Albania proper?
You think ethnic Albanians have treated Serbians well? Look at the extent of your killings, ethnic cleansing and destruction in the province? And you did it to non-Serbians also so what is your excuse?
You can come to this Serbian site like other Albanians and keep spitting at us or you can attempt to start negotiating a peaceful co-existence with us. It's your choice but those that continue to spread hate and live in the past are keeping the whole region back.
pre 14 godina
Couple of things: first personally it was terrible news to hear what happened. terrible because people drowned and terrible because how the.. did they get as far as hungary border? I know these poor souls who drowned are not criminals terrorists and drug traffickers becuase criminals and terrorists dont try to escape from kosovo, kosovo is their kingdom. So these are regular desperate people and also our citizens.
Who, and that's my second point were still involved in criminal activity, so its a little different than when a bus full of tourists crashes. theres a huge risk with any criminal activity and people who do it accept that risk presumably. a horrible way to go and hopefully it will discourage others.
Also for our government to react or not to react we'll first need to know what happened exactly. We dont even know how many people died and who they are.
Also about 'experts' who gave their noble opinions in the article. They are truly not worth the money they get paid to say what they're saying so i'll say nothing more about them.
and our albanians, please dont stumble up and down hypocrite lane. some of the worst atrocities after world war 2 were committed by your compatriots. read about gnjilane massacres and the yellow house. thousands of serbs and albanians also were burned alive and butchered by Nato bombs, no apology no condolence no reparation no Nato commander in jail. nothing yet.
pre 14 godina
Who sends condolences to themselves?
Serbia is not going to send condolences to Serbia when deaths occur. Kosovo is part of Serbia.
How simple is this and yet so many don't get it.
pre 14 godina
Olf said,
"By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it."
Pathetic attempt at drawing a wedge between Jason and Serbs.
Try harder next time Olf.
pre 14 godina
We are still "drowning" with this nonsense article?
99 comments up to now?
Ave Maria!
Big Brother block the subject, pls.
pre 14 godina
Mike
----
I can't argue with that.
Ajvalija
--------
Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics...not to mention the monstrosities perpetrated by the paramilitaries.
Whether you like to admit it or not, there is a difference.
Speaking of INAT, it is not a monopoly of the Serbs by the way. Albanians (and I mean those in Albania too) have the same word and it implies exactly the same thing.
pre 14 godina
If these 15 victims trying to cross into Hungary were Serbs from Kosova, would the Serbian government have offered condolences to their families?
pre 14 godina
what an absolutely idiot article.Why would they care?What albanians in Kosmet cry for the killed serbs,kidnapped Serbs,destroyed churches and monasteries,people chased out of their ancestoral homes?I think B92 is trying to stir the pot.
pre 14 godina
Olf, mate, do you really think that Serbs are guilty for deaths of their own people caused by NATO bombs? You say that you have a lot of serbian friends, have you ever let them know what you really think? What exactly you have told them? Do they support your views? Maybe you should speak about crimes on Serbs done by albanians and NATO.
pre 14 godina
Hmmm.....
In the last 800 years the relation between TataroMongols and Russians are a bit bumpy to say the least.
Now, imagine that a dozen or so Buryat-Mongols from Ulan-Ude or Tatars from Kazan die in an accident.
There WILL BE a day of mourning in Russia with flags half-way down and there WILL some heads of fat cats roll who could be responsible for the accident.
The fact there wasn't a reaction from BG shows, that they are clumsy at best.
To the (lame) excuse - a while ago to the 60th year of the Victory of Defending Fatherland (May 9th, 2005) even Germans sent a delegation to Moscow.
I was told, the only European country which was not present was Serbia. They forgot the anniversary.
Maybe this is a urban legend, but friends of mine from BG told it to me. If that is the case, it explains a lot and take it easy. As an excuse it is indeed lame, but better than nothing.
pre 14 godina
Why should Belgrade feel or say anything, the same ppl with different masks today supported Milosevic's campaign to ethnic cleanse and use all means necessary to get rid of the indigenous population of Kosovo, you think they care if 15 civilians drowned while trying to cross over to Hungary, especially if they are Albanians? As much as I hope I'm wrong I bet most of Serbians officials laughed at this tragedy as they used to do when VJ went amok 98-99.
pre 14 godina
Ajvalija,
What you write in your first posting is largely correct. But I felt, there was a good chance to send a proper message to ethnic Albanians Belgrade just missed. Let's hope it is more out of clumsiness, but this is not how it should be.
If I would be an Albanian living in, say, Subotica or Belgrade I would be pretty much unhappy and certainly think twice whom to support at the next vote.
As for your second posting - here (if I would be Albanian) I would be worried, does the State really takes care of me or not?
As myself as I am - I am not worried because I know the answer true for every country ( = fat cats don't care less). So we have to take care about ourself.
pre 14 godina
MikeC
are you kidding me with that link.not even a schoolchild would read nor belive on that.
Jason, I was expecting your comment and you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge about everything in Kosovo. Are you sure that you were working for UNMIK?
By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.
pre 14 godina
'By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.'
Why is it so hard to understand what you're talking about? What army?
And you know what out of INAT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/325997.stm i'm officially making 'jason' my friend right now. Serbs are accepting him. now lets move past that and hear your ARGUMENT in the discussion.
pre 14 godina
want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
Then pass your way or look somewhere else.
Reading this kind of disgusting comment and other alike comments just make me understand day after day why NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY who came to Switzerland during the war have any wish to go back to a land full of hatred!
pre 14 godina
Ervin,
It's nice to have a moderate Albanian poster for a change.
There are two key words in this article that may not be getting your attention: ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS.
Had these poor K-Albs/Albs been on a vacation, then dying like this AND the Serbian government said nothing then YES I would condemn that. That would be a shame on the entire nation and I hope to see protests/demonstrations over something like that. Though I doubt it would get that far, bad press might be as far as it goes.
However they were illegal immigrants and they should not have been there at all. To express condolence to them at such a high level is like asking Tadic to be expressing condolence to a bank robber that got hit by a car on his way out of the national bank. By breaking the law as they did they automatically put themselves in such a category - the category marked "not innocent". Law breakers are law breakers and this is regardless of ethnicity.
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Jason...
Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
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Serbs don't get it that we do not want an apology from you.
We are simply trying to point out that the lack of an apology further proves that Kosova does not belong to Serbia that is all.
And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova?
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Who said anything about Serbs loosing Kosovo?
Time is on Serbias side!
"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.
This is certainly a shift away from talk about "imposing" a solution and also carries with it some interesting conditional points: "both parties" need to agree, and any solution has to be both "sustainable" and "possible to implement."
Hidden criticism of Washington in this statement, that U.S. advocates for a unilateral recognition of self-declared independence would then have to be willing to sustain and implement this solution using American resources, rather than making commitments we would then expect Europeans to carry out? side!"
http://washingtonrealist.blogspot.com/2007/08/continuing-shift-in-european-positions.html
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The lack of remorse by Serbia is to be expected. Who needs your empty words anyway! Serbia continues to set these kinds of precedents in its realtions to Kosova and her citizens. I'm sure Kosova will reciprocate and the international community will take notice of what at best amounts to a lack of maturity on the Serb side and at worst well, we all know the docks at the Hague are full with one group in particular for a reason!
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"..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table." (Ment)"
-- Ah, I've thought that many-a-time trying to argue with the Albanian side as well. Looks like such a statement is indeed an unfortunate, yet perennial, reality among both sides on this site.
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Bojan, I considered that scenario, but it's easy to imagine the response. People would have yelled something like, "Serbia is just trying to capitalize on a tragedy only to score political points!"
I think Belgrade couldn't win either way on this one -- someone would have found a reason to complain and criticize regardless of what was done...perhaps I'm becoming a cynical S.O.B.!
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When it comes to Kosovo/a, all Serbia is interested in is TERRITORY and not people living in this territory. Do your remember guys during the last status negotiations I warned that the Serbian delegation will be "generous" towards Kosovar Albanian by "giving them everything" other than "for Albanians to be Serbian citizens"....I hope you rembember. In other words it is what Tadic calls "a compromise solution" towards Kosova/o))))
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Surely interesting phenomenon : illegal state introduces the day of mourning for the death of illegal emigrants?
Actually quite understandable: few hundred thousands, and maybe even more, of present inhabitants of Kosovo are Albanians who illegally emigrated from Albania to Kosovo, Serbia with the secret blessing and closed eye by Tito in the period of 1945-1980. Consequently they managed to get away with committed crime and afterwards they managed to steal the territory of Serbia with now, not the secret, but orchestrated blessing from the West.
And of course…if the crime is not punished...it naturally becomes repetitive.
So spellbound reality of this Albanian illegal emigrants and their first generation ancestors presume that the World and Serbia should mourn illegal actions, crime and destruction of International Order.
As mentioned…once you got away with it and...NO MORE.
Serbians are naturally very sensitive concerning the question of illegal emigration, particularly if it comes from Albanian side. As illustrated above it is clear and no wonder why!
For Kosovo Albanians, as per advise, in their illegal state with no moral criteria’s it would be basic not to politicize the unfortunate death of this illegal emigrants.
In addition and BTW no objections, by this moral loving Kosovo Albanians, that Hungary and EU did not send its condolences? It concerns them equally as Serbia?
Kosovo Albanians…your bubbling here is morally groundless.
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As I could notice here, "moral loving" Kosovo Albanians are constantly citating (using citations) Belgrade's Center for Human Rights and the Director of it, Serbian Vojin Dimitrijević? Though I consider his statement genuine nonsence it clearly indicates that here in Serbia we have freedom of speech and duality in opinions.
In contrary on Kosovo ruled by Kosovo Albanians, few years ago when group of the Serbian kids was barbaricly killed while they were playing, sweimming in the river in the course of their summer holiday, by the use of machine gun there were no Kosovo Albanian's "Vojin Dimitrijevic" who had and would comndemned that barbaric act and had "diferrent" and comemorating or moral opinion!
Kosovo Albanians: as long as you don't develop real democratic society and as long as you do not decide to stop with this US sponsored bully behaviour we will keep you in the darkness of your quazi semi-independence.
So think and act respnsibly.Moraly groundless lessons by the essentially undemocratic bunch we will dismiss with resignation.
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# THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
(ben, 3 November 2009 14:08)
thank you ben. serbia has no chance of winning this suit, nor did it ever. and the blg regime knows it, yet has used it w/ the utmost cynicism and expressly for bullying and propaganda purposes...
but here is my point -- there is a basic dehumanization of albanians in the media. this is nothing new -- not a unique realization of mine in any way. it has been true to a lesser and (more so) greater extent at least since the 80s. it is a continuation and hardening of attitude and it has horrible repercussions, this article pointing up only one latest manifestations. many serbian intellectuals write exactly this, but where are they here?
so many times i have pleaded to stop this treatment of the albanians (that is my respectful reference, not that of our adversaries)but such comments are almost always "edited." they are so utterly and thoroughly de-humanized, every day in every way -- and suddenly someone asks: why hasn't the blgd regime said something appropriate about this latest tragedy. who are you kidding?
media (all media) is a manifestation of a people and a culture, but it also is an act-or, a leader. where it goes people will tend to follow. think about it.
i agree with people that there is way too much hate on this site. but just be honest about who brings it out(at least 90%) and then always rationalizes it.
of course K-albanians are not serbian citizens, but they are people and have a right to be respected as such. it seems so obvious to me.
roberto
frisco (far away!)
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Ajvalija
For one thing I'm a guy.
Secondly, my parents live in Tirana and when the refugees from Kosovo were settled only a few hundred meters from where they lived, according to my folks, they had some interesting stories to tell about the Serbian army and police. I'm sure there's plenty of Kosovar Albanians that can fill you in with more details, but then again, you'll come up with other excuses or be completely tone deaf because they're also "demonizing" the army.
You listed some police officers that got killed by the KLA. Fair enough...if KLA was a terrorist organization, then it could have been dealt the same way the British dealt with the IRA or Spain with the ETA. But then I remembered those police officers were sent to Kosovo not to enforce law and order, but to kick Albanians out of their schools, university, work places and keep them out by filling all those institutions with Serbs. Teaching in Albanian was banned...light, insignificant stuff basically. I recently heard from a Kosovar Albanian that those days, anyone caught in the streets wearing a red shirt or anything that looked like an Albanian flag was likely to earn himself a few bruises by goons...sorry your police officers...if he was lucky.
Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?
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In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
The three Balkan dictators could not make anything Good or lasting! USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia are a good ezample. To have borederless environment you need a well established democracy.
All tragedies on the Balkans came from the fact that After the collapse of the Ottoman, and soon after the Austro-Hungarian Empires the new borders were NOT drawn (more or less) in accordance with the ethnic lines, but on the winner-looser principle. As a result ALL became losers!
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if olf's opinions are not pre-formed i am the queen of england. it's easy to condemn attrocities committed by the serbs. it is when you start to find excuses for crimes of the nato that you begin to lose credibility. to my mind this is not better than serbs finding excuses for attocities of the serbian police and paramilitary. this article is about serbs who criticise their government. as they should. and citizens of nato countries have the moral duty to scrutinise actions of their own governments, not find excuses for their crimes.
on the other hand it's true that many posters from serbian diaspora make very annoying comments which don't paint a nice picture about serbs. however, they are not the only ones who make stupid comments.
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Jason
I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.
As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.
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If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
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ajvalija 101
I started to like your posts. Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina, Republic of Kovova and yuor English is excellent. Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
Zoran, thanks for your links. You have a point but did you forget why all that happened. Just dont carry on with Milosevic style journalism please, the one that gave Serbia his reputation.
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(malcolm x, 4 November 2009 17:26)
1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
I dont know about the story in Africa but I can suggest you look for a story that has people in trains deported, women raped, elderly slaughered, babies burned, men of all ages executed from Serbian army and police in Kosovo.
This makes every human being very very sick you probably agree no. This is something that mankind will never forget.
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Thank goodness Croats are decended from Franks. I am so tired of you Avar's and your
arguments.
pre 14 godina
A big thank you goes to B92 editors for posting comments of alvalia, zoran, mike and milan. These comments tell a lot why things that happend in Balkans actually happened.
Thank You B92 again.
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The fact that Serbia considers Kosovo an “inalienable” part of it’s territory that means that all of the people living in Kosovo are also “inalienable” citizens of Serbia. As such a formal offer of condolences to the families of the victims would have been prudent. If these were Serbs that drowned trying to illegally migrate do you honestly believe that the Serbian government would have been equally silent? Of course not.
This is “inalienable” proof that Serbia and it’s government do not view Albanians from Kosovo as it’s citizens and as such can not possibly expect Kosovo to be considered Serbian territory as the vast majority of it’s population is Albanian.
Those of you who assert that Kosovar Albanians don’t consider themselves Serbian citizens and as such shouldn’t expect condolences from Serbia are absolutely correct. And we don’t.
However because Serbia hypocritically considers Kosovo it’s territory and by that virtue Kosovo’s citizens as Serbian citizens, the Serbian government had a political obligation, not a moral one, to make such a statement. The fact that they didn’t openly and publicly shows that in the halls of power behind closed doors they very well realize that Kosovo is lost and will never be part of Serbia.
That being said I feel awful for this tragedy occurring and offer my most sincere condolences to the families of the lost. May they rest in peace.
I’m sure that many of you that disagree with this article and my comments are under the same delusion that causes you to believe that there is a true chance that Kosovo Independence will be reversed. That is a ludicrous wish and desire and nothing more. The reality on the ground is irreversible. You couldn’t control us with 65000 troops and police for decades what makes you think you can control us after we have already tasted freedom?
The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
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-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
(Mike, 4 November 2009 00:48)
Thanks for an honest answer but I must add that your presumption is wrong. I didn't come here to take the higher moral ground as an Albanian, as a matter of fact I see both our people as very similar and I've come to expect Serbs to react to things the same way I would.
The gist of my argument was that the failure of Belgrade to show any sort of empathy for what it considers its "citizens" proves that Ksoova and Serbia are basically done. All the cries from some of the Serbian posters here about Prishtina going back to the negotiations table with Belgrade is just hogwash, the last failed attempt to hold on to the territory while still treating the ethnic Albanian population as undesirable.
The only solution to this problem could conceivably be partition along the Ibar but only with the understanding that Kosova joins Albania, which I doubt anyone involved wants to happen.
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Olf's comments about this being a site where "everybody has access" is right on: if a non-Serbian reader goes to Google for information on a matter related to Serbia, the English-language story from B92 is sure to show up. This is a pity, because most of the Serb-supporting comments to the story are so much more strident than anything you find on the Serbian comment page, and they really don't give a fair impression of the range of opinion on any question that seems to exist in Serbia. Or the intelligence and/or humor with which they are sometimes expressed.
I especially appreciate Olf's willingness to provide information here based on his personal experience working in Kosovo rather than pre-formed political opinions - it takes a certain level of maturity to overlook the emotional responses this evokes in certain other posters. Tnx, Olf.
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The same people quoted saying that Serbia should make a public announcement about this event, are the same people who want Kosovo to remain as a part of Serbia.
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Olf is not part of failed Serbian propaganda machine like some in here. Most of Olf's comments are based in real fact. Those that are interested to find them can very easily find them.
I guess that reality hurts some in here and some people have a real problem with, no matter where they from or what they do.
Again, it is sad to see Serbian propaganda machine trying to change and twist the facts but at the same time happy to see them fail once again.
Guys, I suggest you keep on trying and be less abusive. you never know, you might succed one day.
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Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
(Delije, 6 November 2009 05:27)
Because Mexico is an independent country? Thanks Delije for articulating it better than any of us could.
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JC
Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
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ajvalia
I have no idea what slavas are.
Never been to Kosovo or Serbia, but I suppose these must be something great if you're bragging about it.
But then again, you brag about INAT too, so go figure.
In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked. NATO had nothing better to do so out of the blue, it decided to use Serbia for target practice. Nevermind the events before.
There's a collective amnesia there and unfortunately, there's no cure for that.
Btw... your bla, bla, sorry, blas and the last part of the comment, show quite a casualness to butchery.
It's funny, because a western negotiator sent to deal with Milosevic in the 90-s, noticed this exact same kind of attitude by the Serb officials of the time.
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Thank you all for your comments. No offence taken from Serb radicals/nationalist.
ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
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The very least that the politicians could have done was to offer condolences in order to prove a point, that K-Albanians are still in Serbia. This shows the incompetence of politicians.
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(roberto, 4 November 2009 07:30)
Thanks Roberto for your continuous objective and smart comments.
It is always a great pleasure reading them.
The fact of the weakness of the Serbian argument in ICJ is also the fact that if the Serbian interpretation of international law is correct, then Serbia should give up Vojvodina.
Based on which international law Vojvodina is Serbian???
There is much much much more LEGAL grounds for the Kosova’s independence than for the Serbian-Vojvodina.
But Serbs prefer to live in their surrealistic world instead of facing the truth.
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Ataman said: "Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed."
Let me try to guess Ataman. No politician (in this case Serbian) will offer condolences to people(in this case Albanians), whose votes they don't hope to get in the next elections. Can you figure out the implications of the last sentence, wink wink? Together with the other guess: no politician will do something (offer condolences in this particular case), which may make them lose points with the people who can vote for them.
Not even the leading class of Serbia considers Kosovo politically part of Serbia, but I guess you disagree.
Finally, it is funny to see comments by some people, which make parallels between Mexican immigrants, and the US, which are two different countries. Reality is slowly sinking in...
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"Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?"
(Ment, 5 November 2009 01:17)
Because none of it had anything to do with justice but all to do with politics.
Now you know.
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Kosovo is Serbia!!!!!!
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Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
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1....Belgrade Center for Human Rights Director Vojin Dimitrijević said it amounts to “another in a long line of symptoms which do not point to the fact that this is a decent country”.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
2. “This is another symptom, this time it is a complete lack of empathy.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
3. Analyst Vladimir Todorić said that Kosovo Albanians "are not Serbian citizens" and that they "do not wish to be".
“No one in Kosovo will be upset over the fact that Belgrade did not proclaim a day of mourning, or even sent a telegram of condolences, or reacted to the tragedy in any way.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
Typical Serbia. You are mirrored to the world just the way you are. Even local Serbs are beggining to realise that they Serbia has no respect for human beings.
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This is NO different than Milosevic politics! The current government still WANTS Kosovo land, plus parts of Bosnia etc), but without the Albanians or Bosnians or Croats or any other non - Serb...hence NOTHING CHANGED IN TEN YEARS SINCE MILOSEVIC!!! Nationalism, and in this case 'not sending condoclances' = as if killed by the hand of Milosevic a.k.a. the current government.
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Olf is not part of failed Serbian propaganda machine like some in here. Most of Olf's comments are based in real fact. Those that are interested to find them can very easily find them.
I guess that reality hurts some in here and some people have a real problem with, no matter where they from or what they do.
Again, it is sad to see Serbian propaganda machine trying to change and twist the facts but at the same time happy to see them fail once again.
Guys, I suggest you keep on trying and be less abusive. you never know, you might succed one day.
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Kosovo Serb official Radmila Trajković also weighed in to say that “as a Serbian citizen and a citizen that lives in Kosovo” she would have liked to see the Serbian president express his condolences over the drowning victims.
EVERY SERB OUT OF KOSOVO!
we dont need and dont want any so called condolences from serbia
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Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
For those that say Kosovo is Serbia, this shows that in Serbia, there are Serbs from Serbia proper and other second class citizens, including Serbs from Kosovo.
And yes, it is the 21st century.
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Jason
I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.
As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.
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If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
pre 14 godina
Why would they? What has this got to do with Serbs??!?
pre 14 godina
A big thank you goes to B92 editors for posting comments of alvalia, zoran, mike and milan. These comments tell a lot why things that happend in Balkans actually happened.
Thank You B92 again.
pre 14 godina
The fact that Serbia considers Kosovo an “inalienable” part of it’s territory that means that all of the people living in Kosovo are also “inalienable” citizens of Serbia. As such a formal offer of condolences to the families of the victims would have been prudent. If these were Serbs that drowned trying to illegally migrate do you honestly believe that the Serbian government would have been equally silent? Of course not.
This is “inalienable” proof that Serbia and it’s government do not view Albanians from Kosovo as it’s citizens and as such can not possibly expect Kosovo to be considered Serbian territory as the vast majority of it’s population is Albanian.
Those of you who assert that Kosovar Albanians don’t consider themselves Serbian citizens and as such shouldn’t expect condolences from Serbia are absolutely correct. And we don’t.
However because Serbia hypocritically considers Kosovo it’s territory and by that virtue Kosovo’s citizens as Serbian citizens, the Serbian government had a political obligation, not a moral one, to make such a statement. The fact that they didn’t openly and publicly shows that in the halls of power behind closed doors they very well realize that Kosovo is lost and will never be part of Serbia.
That being said I feel awful for this tragedy occurring and offer my most sincere condolences to the families of the lost. May they rest in peace.
I’m sure that many of you that disagree with this article and my comments are under the same delusion that causes you to believe that there is a true chance that Kosovo Independence will be reversed. That is a ludicrous wish and desire and nothing more. The reality on the ground is irreversible. You couldn’t control us with 65000 troops and police for decades what makes you think you can control us after we have already tasted freedom?
The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
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UK, how right you are. This is a bitter piece of spin used to create an issue out of something that doesn't even exist.
Our ethnic Albanian citizens would not have even expected a response until now and I expect them to be infuriated. If they wanted their president to respond then they should have said something earlier - except they don't consider him their president.
Kosovo is administered by the UN but I didn't hear a response from the secretary general or even the security council. Now we have all these people living in the past, like ZagorTeNeJ, who will fall for this spin and make an issue out of nothing. The simple fact is - Kosovo is legally Serbian land, true, but we have given our ethnic Albanian citizens self-rule so we do not need to respond to all of their internal issues. If they are prepared to die for this piece of land then why are they dying to escape it?
This article comes in poor taste. Shame on B92.
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ajvalija 101
I started to like your posts. Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina, Republic of Kovova and yuor English is excellent. Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
Zoran, thanks for your links. You have a point but did you forget why all that happened. Just dont carry on with Milosevic style journalism please, the one that gave Serbia his reputation.
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(malcolm x, 4 November 2009 17:26)
1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
I dont know about the story in Africa but I can suggest you look for a story that has people in trains deported, women raped, elderly slaughered, babies burned, men of all ages executed from Serbian army and police in Kosovo.
This makes every human being very very sick you probably agree no. This is something that mankind will never forget.
pre 14 godina
Radmila Trajković is an Albanian and USA/EU Mouth piece and does not truly represent a single Serb in Kosovo although one might think so because of the title bestowed upon her by not the Serbs but instead USA/EU. As far as having a possible day of mourning in Serbia for drowned Albanians who tried illegally to cross the border, why? This nonsense makes no sense at all.
pre 14 godina
JC
Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
pre 14 godina
ajvalia
I have no idea what slavas are.
Never been to Kosovo or Serbia, but I suppose these must be something great if you're bragging about it.
But then again, you brag about INAT too, so go figure.
In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked. NATO had nothing better to do so out of the blue, it decided to use Serbia for target practice. Nevermind the events before.
There's a collective amnesia there and unfortunately, there's no cure for that.
Btw... your bla, bla, sorry, blas and the last part of the comment, show quite a casualness to butchery.
It's funny, because a western negotiator sent to deal with Milosevic in the 90-s, noticed this exact same kind of attitude by the Serb officials of the time.
pre 14 godina
(roberto, 4 November 2009 07:30)
Thanks Roberto for your continuous objective and smart comments.
It is always a great pleasure reading them.
The fact of the weakness of the Serbian argument in ICJ is also the fact that if the Serbian interpretation of international law is correct, then Serbia should give up Vojvodina.
Based on which international law Vojvodina is Serbian???
There is much much much more LEGAL grounds for the Kosova’s independence than for the Serbian-Vojvodina.
But Serbs prefer to live in their surrealistic world instead of facing the truth.
pre 14 godina
From an albanian perspective, there is really nothing more to add, this article says it all.
UK,
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future. The posts from serb commentators attest to that.
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
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THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
pre 14 godina
The lack of remorse by Serbia is to be expected. Who needs your empty words anyway! Serbia continues to set these kinds of precedents in its realtions to Kosova and her citizens. I'm sure Kosova will reciprocate and the international community will take notice of what at best amounts to a lack of maturity on the Serb side and at worst well, we all know the docks at the Hague are full with one group in particular for a reason!
pre 14 godina
Pathetic and groundless attack on Serbian Government and its Officials.
I have never manage to hear that other Governments Officials (let’s say Italian, Greek, Australian, US or…) in the similar cases and situations, of the unfortunate death of illegal emigrants who were violating the International Laws in order to entrance their countries illegally, (in this case even with forged passports which makes them serious Law offenders) have ever issued the statement of condolences, neither they are morally bounded to do so.
However this was an tragic and unfortunate accident, this same people (15 or 16 of them) where the serious criminal offenders, acting and aware of their criminal doings, who would be soon or later caught and would and should face a serious set of legal charges. Official Government condolences in this kind of cases are not the matter of consideration anywhere Worldwide.
On the other side, “Kosovo Albanians Government” introduced day of mourning is hypocrite and morally pathetic act which uses and misuses the death of this unfortunate illegal emigrants for daily politizations: simply said do provide them with jobs and decent conditions for living in the areas under your governing and they would not be having any legitimate reasons to leave their homes and violate International Laws.
Equally and in addition, non-Governmental organizations, like Center for Human Rights and their Director Vojin Dimitrijević, should be able to distinguish codes of legal conduct, and adequate acts of Governments dealings in the civilized World, before they decide to come out with their groundless ridiculous statements aimed on self-promotion and not on the fundaments of the issue.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to apologize, I don't want Serbia to cry for me, I don't want Serbia to regret my tragedies, I don't want to be part of anything Serbian good or bad, I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
pre 14 godina
Ajvalija
For one thing I'm a guy.
Secondly, my parents live in Tirana and when the refugees from Kosovo were settled only a few hundred meters from where they lived, according to my folks, they had some interesting stories to tell about the Serbian army and police. I'm sure there's plenty of Kosovar Albanians that can fill you in with more details, but then again, you'll come up with other excuses or be completely tone deaf because they're also "demonizing" the army.
You listed some police officers that got killed by the KLA. Fair enough...if KLA was a terrorist organization, then it could have been dealt the same way the British dealt with the IRA or Spain with the ETA. But then I remembered those police officers were sent to Kosovo not to enforce law and order, but to kick Albanians out of their schools, university, work places and keep them out by filling all those institutions with Serbs. Teaching in Albanian was banned...light, insignificant stuff basically. I recently heard from a Kosovar Albanian that those days, anyone caught in the streets wearing a red shirt or anything that looked like an Albanian flag was likely to earn himself a few bruises by goons...sorry your police officers...if he was lucky.
Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?
pre 14 godina
# THANKS Serbia!!!
I am sure that ICJ will want to hear this.
What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians, deported 800,000 people form their homes and now doesn't express even a regret on a tragedy over alegedly her own citizens, but of the second class race???
Great porgress Serbia.
Thanks for your continuous assists.
(ben, 3 November 2009 14:08)
thank you ben. serbia has no chance of winning this suit, nor did it ever. and the blg regime knows it, yet has used it w/ the utmost cynicism and expressly for bullying and propaganda purposes...
but here is my point -- there is a basic dehumanization of albanians in the media. this is nothing new -- not a unique realization of mine in any way. it has been true to a lesser and (more so) greater extent at least since the 80s. it is a continuation and hardening of attitude and it has horrible repercussions, this article pointing up only one latest manifestations. many serbian intellectuals write exactly this, but where are they here?
so many times i have pleaded to stop this treatment of the albanians (that is my respectful reference, not that of our adversaries)but such comments are almost always "edited." they are so utterly and thoroughly de-humanized, every day in every way -- and suddenly someone asks: why hasn't the blgd regime said something appropriate about this latest tragedy. who are you kidding?
media (all media) is a manifestation of a people and a culture, but it also is an act-or, a leader. where it goes people will tend to follow. think about it.
i agree with people that there is way too much hate on this site. but just be honest about who brings it out(at least 90%) and then always rationalizes it.
of course K-albanians are not serbian citizens, but they are people and have a right to be respected as such. it seems so obvious to me.
roberto
frisco (far away!)
pre 14 godina
Thank goodness Croats are decended from Franks. I am so tired of you Avar's and your
arguments.
pre 14 godina
Thank you all for your comments. No offence taken from Serb radicals/nationalist.
ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
pre 14 godina
Serbia has no respect for human beings.
(PRN, 3 November 2009 11:31)
--
Wow, look who's talking. PRN yesterday stated that the Slavic race should be removed from Europe for the sake of peace. There are hundreds of millions of us living on about half the European continent and for the sake of about 5 million ethnic Albanians we should all go to Siberia. And PRN claims that we have no respect for human beings?
pre 14 godina
It is the first time that I write in this forum in English b92. I live in Prishtina.
there are 3 main reasons why Serbia should condole these victims, regardless of political case someone tries to draw here:
1. because even the most difficult time has been people in the side of Albanians and in the side of the Serbs who have communicated with each other, who have trusted each other and who have cooperated with each other. today their number grows each day.
in good and bad we have lived long together and today we strive together Europe
2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
pre 14 godina
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:31)
Are you joking? This article is the most realistic one I have seen in a while. When did Serbia ever care of K-Alb, or tried to represent their state, or gov or tried to be their country? Serbia never gave a big damn about K-Alb and always considered them as invadors or a population that did not belong there. Who are you kidding? Go read some history. Go see what was the Serbian state policy towards Albanians particulary in the 1930s.
What peace and prosperity did Serbia ever worked on for the region? Most of the war crimes in the ex-Yugo conflicts were commited by Serbs who have the highest number of the indicted war criminals in Hague many accused of genocide. All of the sudden you speak of peace and prosperity as if you have invented them.
This article is provoking Albanians, yet your state policies in decades, your ethnic cleansing, your killing of 10,000 K-alb in a matter of 2 months in 1999, the abolishment of autonomy, the persecution and hate we always received from serbs and serbian state, the war and destruction your state brought upon us .... those are not provoking?
Provoking is just a summer breeze for us, we are used to a lot worse coming from Serbia.
Sorry, I don't believe we can coexist together in any way, shape or form, not for a while at least.
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
Olf, Sooner or later Kosova will file lawsuit against serbia at the Hague and then we'll see those brave serbs defending themselves, however the guilty verdict will come quick.
Serbs should pray and hope that either Croatia or Albania don't become EU members because if they do then Serbia has to say bye bye to EU.
pre 14 godina
Why oh why oh why would anyone wish to make political comment about such an incident? How does anyone manage to make a sensible connection between Belgrade not showing support for illegal immigrants and their stance on the illegal UDI. I am amazed that this comment was even considered let alone made and reported! Please focus on real issues and stop wasting everyones time with such inane comments! Of course it is wrong when anyone dies but any political connection is completely unwelcome and sounds like desperation.
pre 14 godina
When it comes to Kosovo/a, all Serbia is interested in is TERRITORY and not people living in this territory. Do your remember guys during the last status negotiations I warned that the Serbian delegation will be "generous" towards Kosovar Albanian by "giving them everything" other than "for Albanians to be Serbian citizens"....I hope you rembember. In other words it is what Tadic calls "a compromise solution" towards Kosova/o))))
pre 14 godina
Who sends condolences to themselves?
Serbia is not going to send condolences to Serbia when deaths occur. Kosovo is part of Serbia.
How simple is this and yet so many don't get it.
pre 14 godina
Finally a decent article on here. It's good to see that not all Serbs live in a false reality.
pre 14 godina
Not suprised.
Previous Serbian government is responsbile for killing of more that 15000 K-Albanians and none of Serbian authorities have ever apologised, or thought of doing something similar.
(Olf, 3 November 2009 12:24)
More proof that Olf is an Albanian pretending to be an international working for some agency in Kosovo. I have worked in UNMIK and EULEX and the number of 15,000 dead Albanians has yet to come up. Good try but we are not buying.
pre 14 godina
When albanians start mourning Serbian kids gunned down near schools in Kosovo,elders in their homes,give Serbian people in Kosovo basic human rights.Then maybe we will do the same that Croatian,Montenegrins and Bosnians did upon hearing of this tragic news.
pre 14 godina
Hey ben:
What does Serbia have to do with these people? How do you stop someone if they want to jump off a bridge? You can't. They were probobly escaping the extreme poverty of uck terrorist government.
On another note you say, "What do you think ICJ don't know which is the culture that killed 15,000 inocent civilians." ben it was uck terrorists! Stop spreading lies!
pre 14 godina
Ataman said: "Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed."
Let me try to guess Ataman. No politician (in this case Serbian) will offer condolences to people(in this case Albanians), whose votes they don't hope to get in the next elections. Can you figure out the implications of the last sentence, wink wink? Together with the other guess: no politician will do something (offer condolences in this particular case), which may make them lose points with the people who can vote for them.
Not even the leading class of Serbia considers Kosovo politically part of Serbia, but I guess you disagree.
Finally, it is funny to see comments by some people, which make parallels between Mexican immigrants, and the US, which are two different countries. Reality is slowly sinking in...
pre 14 godina
Why should Belgrade feel or say anything, the same ppl with different masks today supported Milosevic's campaign to ethnic cleanse and use all means necessary to get rid of the indigenous population of Kosovo, you think they care if 15 civilians drowned while trying to cross over to Hungary, especially if they are Albanians? As much as I hope I'm wrong I bet most of Serbians officials laughed at this tragedy as they used to do when VJ went amok 98-99.
pre 14 godina
-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
(Mike, 4 November 2009 00:48)
Thanks for an honest answer but I must add that your presumption is wrong. I didn't come here to take the higher moral ground as an Albanian, as a matter of fact I see both our people as very similar and I've come to expect Serbs to react to things the same way I would.
The gist of my argument was that the failure of Belgrade to show any sort of empathy for what it considers its "citizens" proves that Ksoova and Serbia are basically done. All the cries from some of the Serbian posters here about Prishtina going back to the negotiations table with Belgrade is just hogwash, the last failed attempt to hold on to the territory while still treating the ethnic Albanian population as undesirable.
The only solution to this problem could conceivably be partition along the Ibar but only with the understanding that Kosova joins Albania, which I doubt anyone involved wants to happen.
pre 14 godina
This has everything to do with politics - the latest reaction from Belgrade (or lack of) to this incident is in line with a policy towards albanians thats spans over a century - something we have been reiterating all along. When it comes to attitudes towards albanians, Serbia has not changes much since Milosevic, and I doubt it will in the near future.
(nikshala, 3 November 2009 11:52)
ok, what now? does it go back for more than a century or just to the milosevic era? or is milosevic used just for the emotional impact? has "milosevic" become a word like "hitler", synonimous with "devil"? can any meaningful information be given to others in this way?
your post actually sounds very credible up to the point you mention milosevic.
pre 14 godina
Of course it's a political statement. Does Washington express condolences for every Mexican who dies trying to cross the Rio Grande? Does even Mexico give a damn? And if we're going to play the humanitarian game, seeing as how Kosovo Serbs are technically regarded as citizens of Kosovo, do the yobs in Pristina declare days of mourning whenever elderly Serb couples are mysteriously found dead in their homes? Have the K Albanians declared days of mourning for all Serbs killed from Albanian revenge attacks from 1999?
Why, how many of our dear Neo-Illyrian cyber orcs attempt to rationalize on this site that those Serbs who are physically attacked by Albanians, allegedly "Europe's youngest democrats", are somehow deserving of such violence? How many Neo-Illyrians only yesterday called for the expulsion of not only Serbs, but all Slavs from Southeastern Europe, and from all of Europe?
And P(retty) R(idiculous) N(ationalist) says that Serbs have no respect for human beings.
pre 14 godina
Olf
Did K-albanians appoligize for siding with the Nazis and the killing of 30.000 Serbs during WW2? If not, why?
"Many times Germans had to restrain their Moslem allies: "Bedri Pejani, the Muslim leader of the Albanian National Committee, called for the extermination of Orthodox Serbian Christians in Kosovo-Metohija and for a union of a Greater Albania with Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia into a Greater Islamic State."
http://www.kosovo.net/hist2.html
Don't hold your breath for an appology from Serbia. You should appologize for trying to steal our land.
pre 14 godina
what an absolutely idiot article.Why would they care?What albanians in Kosmet cry for the killed serbs,kidnapped Serbs,destroyed churches and monasteries,people chased out of their ancestoral homes?I think B92 is trying to stir the pot.
pre 14 godina
In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
The three Balkan dictators could not make anything Good or lasting! USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia are a good ezample. To have borederless environment you need a well established democracy.
All tragedies on the Balkans came from the fact that After the collapse of the Ottoman, and soon after the Austro-Hungarian Empires the new borders were NOT drawn (more or less) in accordance with the ethnic lines, but on the winner-looser principle. As a result ALL became losers!
pre 14 godina
Olf
Next time you comment something the number of dead albanians would go from 15.000 to 150.000 dead. I guess it all depends on how much you've had to drink. As usual albanians make a claim without any proof. You might as well have said 15.000000.000000.000000.000 dead albanians.
pre 14 godina
Serbs don't get it that we do not want an apology from you.
We are simply trying to point out that the lack of an apology further proves that Kosova does not belong to Serbia that is all.
And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova?
pre 14 godina
Let's have a look at who is this Vojin Dimitrijevic and his 'Belgrade Center for Human Rights' and where the funding comes from:
'The Belgrade Center for Human Rights (BCHR) has received NED assistance to encourage Serb academics, journalists and civic activists to participate directly in the formation of policy for the democratic political opposition in Serbia.'
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/news/ned-1.htm
So his group is funded by the NED, National Endowment for Democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy
No wonder Dimitrijevic is quick to jump on the Serbian government for this non-issue, and keeps silent on the inhuman treatment of Kosovo's Serbs by the albanians. Kosovo Serbs have no freedom of movement, need military escorts to go shopping, can not speak Serbian in public without being attacked, get their gravestones overturned and their churches burned, have absolutely zero human rights..I guess this isn't enough to illicit a statement from this group of 'human rights' experts who are funded by the US government.
It all makes sense when you follow the money. There are many fifth columns inside of Serbia working for her destruction from within. I will let you be the judge on who they are.
pre 14 godina
MikeC
are you kidding me with that link.not even a schoolchild would read nor belive on that.
Jason, I was expecting your comment and you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge about everything in Kosovo. Are you sure that you were working for UNMIK?
By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.
pre 14 godina
If these 15 victims trying to cross into Hungary were Serbs from Kosova, would the Serbian government have offered condolences to their families?
pre 14 godina
On the other side, Priština needs to explain what kind of new Kosovo this is which people are risking their lives to get out of,” Dimitrijević said.
FULL STOP (No further Comment needed).
typical kosovo. even ordinary albanians realise they will need to look for a better life somewhere else, which is why this tragedy happened in the first place.
on a more serious note, i do agree that serbia should show more empathy. we are constantly reminded by trolls on this site that albanian hatred of everything serbian is hysterical, but serbia needs to reach out to them. otherwise there is not much point in claiming that kosovo is serbia. if you want kosovo you have to accept people who live there as a part of your nation. and if you don't then give up on parts of kosovo populated by albanians and ask for partition. actually partition seems to me the most pragmatic solution even though parition along ethnic lines is never pretty.
pre 14 godina
They might have been illegal immigrants as many commentators like to refer to them, but they were still human and did not deserve to die.
(nikshala,
Nikshala, if you take the time to actually read my post you will notice that I said quite clearly that it is wrong when anyone dies. Please do not try to make me seem as though I have no feeling. What I am saying is that is absolutely not a political issue to be used by immoral politicians for heartless and meaningless political gain. Why would any politician in any country feel the need to voice any comment about such an event other than to try and gain some kind of empty points in some kind of immoral game? Let the dead rest in peace. Those involved were illegal immigrants who took a personal decision to try and illigaly enter a country via a very dangerous route. If you are so upset at the lack of any comment why would you not make a similar post each and every time any person has the misfortune to die whilst trying to enter any country illegaly? Please lets stick to discussing the real political issues and leave the dead alone. Nobody forced them to try what they tried and certainly nobody is to blame for what sadly happened.
pre 14 godina
Couple of things: first personally it was terrible news to hear what happened. terrible because people drowned and terrible because how the.. did they get as far as hungary border? I know these poor souls who drowned are not criminals terrorists and drug traffickers becuase criminals and terrorists dont try to escape from kosovo, kosovo is their kingdom. So these are regular desperate people and also our citizens.
Who, and that's my second point were still involved in criminal activity, so its a little different than when a bus full of tourists crashes. theres a huge risk with any criminal activity and people who do it accept that risk presumably. a horrible way to go and hopefully it will discourage others.
Also for our government to react or not to react we'll first need to know what happened exactly. We dont even know how many people died and who they are.
Also about 'experts' who gave their noble opinions in the article. They are truly not worth the money they get paid to say what they're saying so i'll say nothing more about them.
and our albanians, please dont stumble up and down hypocrite lane. some of the worst atrocities after world war 2 were committed by your compatriots. read about gnjilane massacres and the yellow house. thousands of serbs and albanians also were burned alive and butchered by Nato bombs, no apology no condolence no reparation no Nato commander in jail. nothing yet.
pre 14 godina
Surely interesting phenomenon : illegal state introduces the day of mourning for the death of illegal emigrants?
Actually quite understandable: few hundred thousands, and maybe even more, of present inhabitants of Kosovo are Albanians who illegally emigrated from Albania to Kosovo, Serbia with the secret blessing and closed eye by Tito in the period of 1945-1980. Consequently they managed to get away with committed crime and afterwards they managed to steal the territory of Serbia with now, not the secret, but orchestrated blessing from the West.
And of course…if the crime is not punished...it naturally becomes repetitive.
So spellbound reality of this Albanian illegal emigrants and their first generation ancestors presume that the World and Serbia should mourn illegal actions, crime and destruction of International Order.
As mentioned…once you got away with it and...NO MORE.
Serbians are naturally very sensitive concerning the question of illegal emigration, particularly if it comes from Albanian side. As illustrated above it is clear and no wonder why!
For Kosovo Albanians, as per advise, in their illegal state with no moral criteria’s it would be basic not to politicize the unfortunate death of this illegal emigrants.
In addition and BTW no objections, by this moral loving Kosovo Albanians, that Hungary and EU did not send its condolences? It concerns them equally as Serbia?
Kosovo Albanians…your bubbling here is morally groundless.
pre 14 godina
Last week a k-a died in Switzerland fleeing after having being asked by the police to show his papers.
There wasn't any political statement due to this unfortunate event.
I don't know whether anyone would expect any political statement after an unfortunate death.
I have never heard Berlusconi making any statement whereas so many died at the Italian door steps, same for Spain, Cyprus, Greece etc....
It is indeed a terrible tragedy among so many tragedies that are happening every day all around the world...
For the K-a posters to take this as a tool to throw more stones on the Serbs is not only completely displaced but disgusting.
You guys really have nothing else better to do for your dream land where nobody wants to go back and where entire families are trying to escape.
It is about time that you start taking the broom and clean a bit your house if ever you want it to be recognized as a house and not as a sort of second zone campus!
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
pre 14 godina
I am unmoved as well for those albanians knew there would be risks involved in this illegal migration, high risks which included drowning in the Danube.
Should the United States declare a day of mourning every time an illegal from Mexico dies in the desert trying to cross in to the US? NOPE!
pre 14 godina
"And now some food for thought for the Serbs here: what would Belgrade have done if those 16 victimes were Serbs from Kosova? [sic](Zoti)"
-- To be perfectly honest, the Serbs would be claiming bloody murder, while the Albanians who claim Serbs have no respect for humanity would shrug this off as either an unfortunate aspect of life, or excuse it as 16 Serbs who probably got what they deserved. I agree with you in part that people will take someone's death and use it to score political points. But I take issue with what I presume is your thinking that Albanians would respond any differently.
pre 14 godina
Mike
----
I can't argue with that.
Ajvalija
--------
Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics...not to mention the monstrosities perpetrated by the paramilitaries.
Whether you like to admit it or not, there is a difference.
Speaking of INAT, it is not a monopoly of the Serbs by the way. Albanians (and I mean those in Albania too) have the same word and it implies exactly the same thing.
pre 14 godina
RE: Politicizing a tragic event
If the Serbian government is guilty of not offering condolscences due to this tragic event than so are the the other political institutions, namely:
(1) EULEX
(2) UNMIK
(3) EU
pre 14 godina
Who said anything about Serbs loosing Kosovo?
Time is on Serbias side!
"Dutch Foreign Minister Maxim Verhagen said on Tuesday on his tour to Belgrade and Pristina that his government will accept any negotiated solution to the Kosovo issue, including a partition of the province. "Should both parties be willing to accept a solution that is both sustainable and possible to implement, the Netherlands government would find it acceptable," Verhagen was reported as saying.
This is certainly a shift away from talk about "imposing" a solution and also carries with it some interesting conditional points: "both parties" need to agree, and any solution has to be both "sustainable" and "possible to implement."
Hidden criticism of Washington in this statement, that U.S. advocates for a unilateral recognition of self-declared independence would then have to be willing to sustain and implement this solution using American resources, rather than making commitments we would then expect Europeans to carry out? side!"
http://washingtonrealist.blogspot.com/2007/08/continuing-shift-in-european-positions.html
pre 14 godina
I cant understand why all this discussion for a non-existent subject. We have people like Dimitrijevic and "Belgrade Center for Human Rights" here in Greece too. They speak only to "protect" everybody else's human rights except the greeks.When some albanian tries to cross illegally and drowns, the serbs should feel guilty but no word on the everyday violation of serb rights in Kosovo by Albanians. I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
pre 14 godina
I will let you be the judge on who they are.
(Dragan, 3 November 2009 15:23)
--
Well said Dragan. This article was designed to provoke ethnic Albanians and as far as I'm concerned is a form of hate spreading. It did the job and I'm not surprised the US government is behind its funding. So much for working towards peace and prosperity.
pre 14 godina
I don't want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
--
But you will frequently come to a Serbian site and express your opinion with other Serbian citizens?
(Zoran, 3 November 2009 16:18)
The question on everyone's mind, Zoran.
pre 14 godina
If you hope and wish that Serbia will rule Kosovo again someday, you will be hoping and wishing for a very, very long time, because K-Alb simply do not want to live under Serbia, never again.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 17:58)
--
Denis, lets be realistic for a second. Serbia has lost control of the K-Albanians but it certainly hasn't lost Kosovo. We have given you self-rule and allow you to run your parallel institutions. However, in those parts where Serbians form the majority we still run our own institutions. That accounts for about 35-40% of Kosovo so neither Serbians or ethnic Albanians have full control of the territory. Legally Kosovo remains Serbian so unless you guys are prepared to negotiate you will forever remain in a state of limbo.
If you think Serbia or Yugoslavia did nothing for K-Albanians then why did they live much better than Albanians in Albania proper?
You think ethnic Albanians have treated Serbians well? Look at the extent of your killings, ethnic cleansing and destruction in the province? And you did it to non-Serbians also so what is your excuse?
You can come to this Serbian site like other Albanians and keep spitting at us or you can attempt to start negotiating a peaceful co-existence with us. It's your choice but those that continue to spread hate and live in the past are keeping the whole region back.
pre 14 godina
Jason...
Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
pre 14 godina
The irony is that the serb commentators that are challenging this article or the comments of albanians posters are actually confirming the points made in this article.
Please, do not mistake the comments from the albanian side as some kind of dissappointment or hurt that Serbia has not made any statement on the death of these people, including children.
We expect nothing less from Serbia - however all we are trying to do is point out the hypocrisy of Serbian goverment where on one hand they say Kosovo is Serbia and albanians will be respected and treated well if they join Serbia, but on the other hand they should complete disregard towards the death of more than a dozen of, what they are trying to make us believe, their 'own citizens'.
pre 14 godina
'Who's "we" exactly...you and a bunch of the ex-pat Serbian posters here?
Because if that's the case, no matter what Olf or anyone else says, it's not going to change your minds.
As congressman Barney Frank put it to one of his constituents (who believed Obama was implementing "Nazi" healthcare policies)..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table."
(Ment, 3 November 2009 20:22)
Your point please, madam? 'jason' is in serbia and so am i. we come across various mental loafs and we disagree with them. So that per se disqualifies someone?
Theres a lot of trolling going on in cyber city and claiming 15 k dead albanians from the war that albanian terrorists started falls in that category. It's propaganda and has nothing to do with reality. Also we hear 12 k and sometimes 20. So could albanians settle on one number?
Also I'm sorry serbs couldnt be the first in history of mankind to fight a pretty little all clean war where noone gets hurt and i'm glad we definitely didnt kill 12, 15 or 20,000 of them.
End of story.
pre 14 godina
Olf said,
"By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it."
Pathetic attempt at drawing a wedge between Jason and Serbs.
Try harder next time Olf.
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And btw mr loaf there are no first and second class citizens in our country. You separatist albanians reject your state but it doestn mean your state is giving up on you :) i think you feel it and know it every single day :)
pre 14 godina
Mike,
1) "Eye for an eye - and the planet will be blind".
2) USA never does say, the Mexicans who cross Rio Grande illegally are American citizens. So there is no official mourning. These Albanians are officially Serbian citizens.
3) You can say, there is no official mourning in Mexico either. True. But finding body parts cooked in acid all over the city is not a daily practice in (ex)YU. Thank God, Belgrade is not Tijuana, not even Pristina is.
As long as that is the situation in Mexico, that country is firmly on my "ignore" list. Not the best example to follow for others, rather an example what NOT to do, the infamous US-MX border included.
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As an Albanian, a guest in this site, I will tread very carefully with comments. I really liked this article though as I've read many on this site and it does concern me a little that this wasn't as biased as other have been (no pun intended.)
From a political aspect Serbia's gov't should at least issue some type of public address to the deaths, because, let's face it, citizens or not citizens, people did die in a tragic event. With that said, I am sure that if citizens of Serbia died elsewhere in the Balkans, a public statement should be followed, to let people know that this sort of problems are being addressed (even solely as public relation.)
I do understand though, if the gov't did issue a statement, it would seem as if they do relinquish or acknowledge a separate state of Kosovo/a.
To be in all fairness there is no need for Albanians or Serbians to continue to bombard each other with insults any longer, a war is no longer a viable option. Kosova is no longer in Serbia's control; nor is wholly being governed by Albanians solely. It is however being aided by Western Europeans and Americans until the issue is resolved through diplomatic means.
So, yes, Serbia should issue a statement concerning the deaths. It should at least respect the fact that people died at their border. It should not be racially or ethnically motivated, but, simply a statement of sympathy.
As an Albanian, I would expect my gov't to issue the same, regardless of the ethnicity; if not, I would be ashamed and see it as a direct insult to human life.
Most of you who press their opinions here always end up at the war. I am sorry, but, my opinion is addressed to the matter of those people who lose their lives and a gov't that issues no sympathy.
My question is: What if, instead, they were just Albanian tourists that drowned, what stance would Serbia's gov't then take?
Would it be as cold?
Just to answer someone's opinionated question of whether the US gov't issues any sympathy to Mexicans...the answer is yes. The State Department issues numerous condolences to the Mexican counterparts on a normal basis, but, furthermore, they continue to monitor the border more closely. Also, you cannot compare US/Mex. with the Balkans.
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It's unfortunate and sad on the level that these are people just trying to probably find better lives for themselves and couldn't give a crap about any political garbage. Everyday around the world, especially from Cuba and now even Sri Lanka, there are people who risk their lives to find new places to call home. No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities. That would be in a sense, condoning the act of illegal entry. In this day and age, it does not benefit any government to remark on such actions. The people who speak up about these things in a governmental fashion, are merely trying to look humanitarian and seek recognition from seemingly sympathetic remarks. Call it what you will. It's sad that they died but surely shouldn't be used as political pawns behind hidden agendas.
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As I could notice here, "moral loving" Kosovo Albanians are constantly citating (using citations) Belgrade's Center for Human Rights and the Director of it, Serbian Vojin Dimitrijević? Though I consider his statement genuine nonsence it clearly indicates that here in Serbia we have freedom of speech and duality in opinions.
In contrary on Kosovo ruled by Kosovo Albanians, few years ago when group of the Serbian kids was barbaricly killed while they were playing, sweimming in the river in the course of their summer holiday, by the use of machine gun there were no Kosovo Albanian's "Vojin Dimitrijevic" who had and would comndemned that barbaric act and had "diferrent" and comemorating or moral opinion!
Kosovo Albanians: as long as you don't develop real democratic society and as long as you do not decide to stop with this US sponsored bully behaviour we will keep you in the darkness of your quazi semi-independence.
So think and act respnsibly.Moraly groundless lessons by the essentially undemocratic bunch we will dismiss with resignation.
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Olf's comments about this being a site where "everybody has access" is right on: if a non-Serbian reader goes to Google for information on a matter related to Serbia, the English-language story from B92 is sure to show up. This is a pity, because most of the Serb-supporting comments to the story are so much more strident than anything you find on the Serbian comment page, and they really don't give a fair impression of the range of opinion on any question that seems to exist in Serbia. Or the intelligence and/or humor with which they are sometimes expressed.
I especially appreciate Olf's willingness to provide information here based on his personal experience working in Kosovo rather than pre-formed political opinions - it takes a certain level of maturity to overlook the emotional responses this evokes in certain other posters. Tnx, Olf.
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The drowning event was indeed a human tragedy.
But I'm curious to know if Thaci or Ceku ever issue statements of remorse/condolences when Serbs are murdered in Kosovo? Not being sarcastic here, I really want to know.
pre 14 godina
"..."trying to reason with you madam is like trying to reason with the kitchen table." (Ment)"
-- Ah, I've thought that many-a-time trying to argue with the Albanian side as well. Looks like such a statement is indeed an unfortunate, yet perennial, reality among both sides on this site.
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Ajvalija and Peggy,
Thank you for illustrating the obvious weaknesses of Olf's ridiculous claims. I have numerous Serbian friends that either dislike my government and/or dislike EULEX. Never once have they taken out their feelings on me as an individual - unlike many Albanian posters here who despise all Russians, Romanians, (or as we have seen recently, Ukranians) because of their national politics.
I have been invited to countless slavas in Serbian homes in places like Zvecan, Zubin Potok, and Mitrovica. Despite how dangerous these places are as claimed by "Olf" I have found that to be quite the opposite.
And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today. Go ahead, let the hate mail begin!
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Only the stupid would make light of this human tragedy and that is what it is.
May they rest in peace.
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Hmmm.....
In the last 800 years the relation between TataroMongols and Russians are a bit bumpy to say the least.
Now, imagine that a dozen or so Buryat-Mongols from Ulan-Ude or Tatars from Kazan die in an accident.
There WILL BE a day of mourning in Russia with flags half-way down and there WILL some heads of fat cats roll who could be responsible for the accident.
The fact there wasn't a reaction from BG shows, that they are clumsy at best.
To the (lame) excuse - a while ago to the 60th year of the Victory of Defending Fatherland (May 9th, 2005) even Germans sent a delegation to Moscow.
I was told, the only European country which was not present was Serbia. They forgot the anniversary.
Maybe this is a urban legend, but friends of mine from BG told it to me. If that is the case, it explains a lot and take it easy. As an excuse it is indeed lame, but better than nothing.
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'By the way, I feel sorry for you mate, Serbs are not accepting you(EULEX) eventhough you pretend to be more serb than Serbs, sad situation isnt it.
Instead of all that nonsense whay dont you all apologise for the doings of your army.'
Why is it so hard to understand what you're talking about? What army?
And you know what out of INAT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/325997.stm i'm officially making 'jason' my friend right now. Serbs are accepting him. now lets move past that and hear your ARGUMENT in the discussion.
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want Serbia to have to do anything with me, I don't care if Serbia exists or not .... PERIOD.
I will cry my dead myself.
(Denis, 3 November 2009 15:42)
Then pass your way or look somewhere else.
Reading this kind of disgusting comment and other alike comments just make me understand day after day why NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY who came to Switzerland during the war have any wish to go back to a land full of hatred!
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If Jason worked for UNMIK then I have been to planet Mars for vacations.
(Nelli currently in Kosova, 4 November 2009 12:22)
Typical comment from an arrogant Albanian. “Oh, there is no way that an American who worked for UNMIK could ever possibly not listen to his government and take the Serbian side over the Albanian one!” Nelli, if it makes you feel better to say this, be my guest.
As for Oaf…
“I have been to Slavas too and am constantly invited to take part from my Serb friends and I have had lots of fun. Slavas are fun and dont mix them with dangerous places in N.Mitro. Ask your security to tell you better if north is that safe as you are telling people.”
- If you have, Olf, then you are a hypocrite. How could you have ANY Serbian friends after you spew hate and rubbish against Serbs here on a regular basis. Unless you are of course two-faced and you don’t tell them how you really are. Furthermore, unlike you, I don’t rely on EU Security to tell me what is and what is not safe. I decide for myself. I suggest you try the same.
“As for the bombardment, what can I say, NATO bombarded military sites of Milosevic army, you know that. So, if you still feel sorry for Milosevic and his army than I have to stop exchanging comments with you, sorry.”
(Olf, 4 November 2009 12:23)
- Olf, are you that ignorant? I don’t know how you can consider hospitals, schools, passenger trains, radio and television stations, and factories to be of the “Milosevic army.” I suggest you stop drinking the cool aid and start checking your facts. All this said, however, I applaud your promise to stop exchanging posts with me. It is tiresome proving you wrong so often.
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The very least that the politicians could have done was to offer condolences in order to prove a point, that K-Albanians are still in Serbia. This shows the incompetence of politicians.
pre 14 godina
On 3 November 2009 14:41, Mike wrote: "No one at anytime has called a day of mourning or submitted an official sympathy note for similar fatalities."
So true Mike. Similar tragic events happens daily with people try to cross the Mediterranean from Africa into Spain and Italy, or drown in the Atlantic while trying to gain entry into EU by landing on the Canaries. Or coming from the Middle East through Turkey only to drown in the Adriatic Sea trying to reach Greece.
--
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The same people quoted saying that Serbia should make a public announcement about this event, are the same people who want Kosovo to remain as a part of Serbia.
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Ment
>I have no idea what slavas are.
Its when we get together with albanians like olf to have fun.
>In any case, to many of the posters here, the "war" started when NATO attacked.
If the war didn't start on 24 march 1999 it was another date.
Selected reading from records. One of these dates?
21 april 1996:Serb Blagoje Okulic was sitting with a friend in a cafe when a masked member of the KLA opened fire on the customers with an automatic weapon. Okulic and two other guest latter died in hospital. He was the first victim of the KLA.
16 June 1996 police patrol was attacked by KLA near Podujevo and police officer Goran Mitrovic was heavily wounded.
25 October 1996 two police officers were killed by automatic weapons near the village of Surkis in the Podujevo municipality Milos Nikolic (34), a police inspector of the Pristina Precinct, and Dragan Rakic from the village of Velika Reka, who was a police officer in the reserves and a manager of a company in Podujevo. KLA terrorist killed police officer Milos Nikolic in the front of his house.
Maybe the war started in the year 1997. 21 march in the center of Podujevo. KLA terrorists fired five shots at police officer Branislav Milovanovic, wounding him heavily.
In 1998? 15 february: Nik Abdulahu, an ethnic Albanian employee of the Serbia Electric Utility, was shot and killed while at work, at the electricity substation in the village of Staro Cikatovo near Glogovac.
April 29: A group of terrorists on night attacked a Serb police patrol near the village of Dulje, the clash left one policeman seriously wounded and other Sasa Jovanovic (26), was killed as unidentified persons opened fire with a hand-held rocket launcher at the police post at Dulje from a several-hundred-meter distance. Ethnic Albanians demolished cars of foreign journalist in Pristina hotel "Grand", which didn’t support their cause.
43 Kla terrorist attacks and incidents in 96 and 97, over 200 in 98.
Maybe the war started in 1980s when albanian separatist organised bloody demonstrations in Pristina. Or maybe later when they intimidated Serbs, raping and killing them and poisoning their wells and animals.
http://www.kunstradio.at/WAR/binder-nytimes.html
>show quite a casualness to butchery
I'm casual only to your baseless antiserb ranting and propaganda, lies and demonisation of serb army and police. We madam fought against richest countries but moral midgets and that's why we held on for 78 days and could've done it for at least 78 more. Serb army and police was undefeated in battlefield. Like i said i wish we fought first clean war in history. But we couldnt and some crimes like in any war happened. Paramils who did crimes are in court or in jail. And another thing. Nobody who knows anything about war uses words like collateral damage for butchered civilians, because it's disrespectful. You madam do.
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Infrastructure, like bridges and army trains, was his to stop Serbian Army doing more damage to Kosovo civilains as weel as radia and tv stations that were used as the main propaganda machine of the Milosevic regime.
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
Army trains? It was a CIVILIAN passenger train, Einstein. Civilian deaths were from Milosevic using people as shields?! Yeah, like in the old folks’ home and hospitals? You have ZERO credibility. Furthermore, I really doubt someone who has supposedly worked for over 10 years in an international organization in Russia and Kosovo would be as misinformed as you are.
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as a citizen of the eu i strongly condemn the "fortress europe" policies that have resulted in countless deaths and much suffering of the poor who are desperately trying to reach europe in search for better life. where they are coming from is irrelevant. i am also strongly opposed to deporting refugees back to kosovo, especially of children who have spent most of their lives in europe and for who kosovo is a foreign country.
it is also sad to see serbs and albanians fighting again even though in this case the main culprit is clearly someone else.
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"And yes, for the record, I would indeed apologize for my country's bombardment of Yugoslavia for 78-days in 1999... I disagreed with it then as I still do today.
(Jason, 4 November 2009 10:54) "
I completely agree with this statement and more Americans are waking up to the fact that what we did to Serbia was wrong.
To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
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Olf the slava going albanian:
As an albanian i hope you enjoyed crossing yourself in front of the candle. I sure would enjoy watching it. We celebrate 21 november, consider yourself invited :)
Anyway while we talk about national traditions, we serbs have slavas, you albanians have blood feuds. I've seen a few of those too.
Ment, i guess you dont go to any slavas:
'Serbia did not get bombed because it fought a war where unlucky civilians that got in the way were killed (collateral damage). It got bombed because it fought a war where civilians were often deliberately targeted as part of the army's "scorched earth" tactics… bla bla sorry bla..
Nato started illegally attacking our country on march 24 1999 in the evening hours hitting a village near pristine and airport in kraljevo if I remember correctly. After that the war broke out. That’s the chronology that all honest people should pay attention to. Nato attack caused the war in Kosovo. The war in Kosovo started after Nato started its war against Serbia, not before.
You might want to read this
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5570
And if we deliberately scorched you, whatever, you would know it believe me. Give the propaganda a rest and look at the fact of our counterterrorist operations since 96. Look at how stupidly and irresponsibly patient and restrained we were for years with albanian terror in kosovo.
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To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
Very true. I can even pull up Gen. (Weasel) Wesley Clark's own words about how they wanted to make civilians' lives miserable...
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To Olf, NATO did not just target Milosevic's army -- we deliberatly hit numerous civilian targets and infrastructure as well, which was illegal and inexcusable.
(JC, USA, 4 November 2009 14:27)
--
Absolutely, NATO bombed Serbian and ethnic Albanian civilians and NATO was unmoved by those deaths.
Who remembers these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/320204.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/337989.stm
http://www.cnn.org/WORLD/europe/9905/09/kosovo.02/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/357609.stm
http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/archives2/041399/top.html
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Ervin,
It's nice to have a moderate Albanian poster for a change.
There are two key words in this article that may not be getting your attention: ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS.
Had these poor K-Albs/Albs been on a vacation, then dying like this AND the Serbian government said nothing then YES I would condemn that. That would be a shame on the entire nation and I hope to see protests/demonstrations over something like that. Though I doubt it would get that far, bad press might be as far as it goes.
However they were illegal immigrants and they should not have been there at all. To express condolence to them at such a high level is like asking Tadic to be expressing condolence to a bank robber that got hit by a car on his way out of the national bank. By breaking the law as they did they automatically put themselves in such a category - the category marked "not innocent". Law breakers are law breakers and this is regardless of ethnicity.
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Wrong again,robby,
Kosovo is still part of Serbia according to UN1244,only occupied.
pre 14 godina
Thanks for the links, Zoran. They saved me time digging them up for a research paper I am working on. I guess Oaf put his foot in his mouth yet again.
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>Person with what kind of attitide writes post like that in a environment that is visited by foreigners too.
What?! help me somebody.
>Just to update you, I am not an Albanian, so sorry to burts your bubble.
Its just there's no reason. Nobody else hides nationality as far as i see. I just dont know why you do.
>of Kovova and yuor English is excellent
thanks, yours is too. I also shower every day and can switch on computer. You should hear me speak albanian. tell your girlfriend about me :)
>Ajvalia is a village outside Prishtina
And kosovo is serbia. I know, i know.
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ajvalija 101 were you a MUP police that time or a Milosevic journalist .
Keep posting comments of that colour in a site where eveyrbody has access and dont bother asking why Serbias image is so horrible, you are helping it big time.
(Olf, 5 November 2009 09:19)
Coming from a person who is feeling more than a little humiliated for the virtual spanking he got here in this thread. I have lost count of how many times you have contradicted yourself and outright fabricated information. I would be embarrassed too.
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Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
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2.because in this trafficking in human beings are mostly involved Serbs as the center of this trafficking. those young people had the goal for a better life.
3.because the tragedy happened in "democratic state" of Serbia.
I thank you if this response of mine is published by you.
(drini, 3 November 2009 14:29)
Not 100% but mostly agree with Drini. Say, to 95%.
Where I do disagree:
- the human trafficking is international business, here bosses can be from Moldova, Germany, Ukraine. I don't think Serbs are "mostly involved" in this case, but like Albanian traffickers they certainly had their hand in. Who is involved the most is the KPS / MUP job to figure out. I don't really care, just lock them up and throw the keys away
- technically the accident did happen in "not-lesser-democratic-state" of Hungary. Personally I think the smell of Hungarian or Russian fat cats is the same of Serbian or Albanian. It does not smell all to democratic to me but that's the "reality on the ground" here. We as "gastarbajteri" did volunteer to return from "not-lesser-corrupt" countries (Germany and USA) to this sorry place, so I should not complain. In any case the corruption in the West is no less, just the amounts in question are different. There is no other Planet Earth so we have to live here for now, hope many more decades in good health.
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Ajvalija,
What you write in your first posting is largely correct. But I felt, there was a good chance to send a proper message to ethnic Albanians Belgrade just missed. Let's hope it is more out of clumsiness, but this is not how it should be.
If I would be an Albanian living in, say, Subotica or Belgrade I would be pretty much unhappy and certainly think twice whom to support at the next vote.
As for your second posting - here (if I would be Albanian) I would be worried, does the State really takes care of me or not?
As myself as I am - I am not worried because I know the answer true for every country ( = fat cats don't care less). So we have to take care about ourself.
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As tragic as this event was, the same thing happens regularly on the US border with Mexico, and nobody even mentions it as news, let alone having a day of mourning. In fact, a disproportionate number of Black Americans are murdered daily, with barely a mention on the news. The reason perhaps is that these events are so common place that they are given little attention, or it could be that these poor individuals are members of a lower socioeconomic class and therefore the media or government dosen't really pay much attention to it. I'm afraid it's the same with the Albanians whom died on the illegal border crossing.
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I wonder why this silence and double standards by mr Dimitrijevic..
(Nikos, 4 November 2009 11:43)
--
It's simple. He gets paid by the US and he follows their agenda.
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Roberto,
Luckily you have no point. And luckily, I can understand Serbian to a degree I can read the Serbian forum on B92.
What Serbs say there is pretty much the same I do.
And there is no Albanian-Serbian quarrel there.
http://www.b92.net/info/komentari.php?nav_id=390254
And here: shame on both sides who again try to prove their "opanak-versus-fustanella" theories on the occasion that some unfortunate people died.
At last, Roberto has the valid excuse, he does not understand Serbian. But the others? Mine (Serbian) is poor but at least I try to understand.
Not knowing - and posting (as usual) violent anti-Serbian essay due lack of knowledge - is just an excuse.
As it was written:
"Ali hvala od naroda Srbije sto ne misli tako kako misli njihova Vlada."
And as Milan writes - I am joining him:
"a porodicama nastradalih iskreno saucesce!"
But I want to see the traffickers who collected 8000 Euro / family behind the bars for good 15 years and I don't care where: in Kiev, Pristina, Belgrade... lock them up and make them suffer for 15 years.
pre 14 godina
Olf, you belong in the zero credibility bin just like roberto. Always justifying NATOs crime, ignoring ethnic Albanian crimes but highlighting propaganda against Serbians.
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1.Do you know what the Serbian regime used the TV station for? Once you know the answer than you might understand why I blame Serbian regime.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 18:53)
no, darling, i will never want to understand you. because people killed were no criminals. war crimes do make me sick, regardless of who committed them. which makes me different from yourself. you love war crimes as long as they are justified properly. which is entirely human. i do not believe that war ciminals are animals, you see, they are human. they just believe that there is a justification for what they do. just like you. and that's entirely human. it sucks nevertheless.
kthxbye
pre 14 godina
We are still "drowning" with this nonsense article?
99 comments up to now?
Ave Maria!
Big Brother block the subject, pls.
pre 14 godina
Olf is still embarrassed by his spanking here because he is STILL going.
pre 14 godina
There were civilian casulties too for which I really feel sorry, but NATO troops should NOT always be blamed, since it was Milosevic army and police that used them as shields. See many articles about the attack on RTS, and you will find out how did MiloseviC regime send people to work knowing that attack will take place.
(Olf, 4 November 2009 16:07)
yeah, right. don't blame the people who did the killing, blame the people who failed to prevent it. it makes perfect sense. and people who use the human shields excuse are disgusting. did you know that german colonial army used that excuse during the massacre of the herero people in what is today namibia? old story. and how did bombing of bridges in novi sad prevent the serbian army from harming civilians in a completely different part of the country?
when i read reports about the bombing of the tv station back in 1999 it was the first time in my life that i saw a war crime being reported in the media without people calling it what it was - a war crime. it was announced that a civilian target was deliberately targetted. other civilian targets were also hit, but you could claim that it was not deliberate.
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The only way is mutual acceptance and peace and an integration into the EU under current borders. If this doesn’t happen then Kosovo will have to join Albania so we can become an EU and UN member. Choice is yours.
(Ylber, 4 November 2009 19:18)
Till that sentence what you wrote is either true or reflects the current situation. What reason for the Belgrade did not react can be guessed or second-guessed.
But this sentence is plain wrong for a simple reason: face it or not, Kosovo is not to a lesser degree Serbian than Albanian.
Time to time who has the upper hand does try eradicate the other party. What you wrote is nothing else, just imposing on Serbs the Albanian wish. They won't accept it and wait till they will have the upper hand - if it takes 500 years, than 500 years.
The only way to finish this conflict is not to make more borders, but to make less.
In late 40-s your enemy was Stalin, who prevented the creation of Bulgarian-Albanian-YU confederation Dimitrov, Hoxha and Tito were working on. I am far from idealizing GD-EH-JBT, but at least with that idea they were right on.
Which force works now on more partition is up to you to realize.
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Bojan, I considered that scenario, but it's easy to imagine the response. People would have yelled something like, "Serbia is just trying to capitalize on a tragedy only to score political points!"
I think Belgrade couldn't win either way on this one -- someone would have found a reason to complain and criticize regardless of what was done...perhaps I'm becoming a cynical S.O.B.!
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if olf's opinions are not pre-formed i am the queen of england. it's easy to condemn attrocities committed by the serbs. it is when you start to find excuses for crimes of the nato that you begin to lose credibility. to my mind this is not better than serbs finding excuses for attocities of the serbian police and paramilitary. this article is about serbs who criticise their government. as they should. and citizens of nato countries have the moral duty to scrutinise actions of their own governments, not find excuses for their crimes.
on the other hand it's true that many posters from serbian diaspora make very annoying comments which don't paint a nice picture about serbs. however, they are not the only ones who make stupid comments.
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Olf, mate, do you really think that Serbs are guilty for deaths of their own people caused by NATO bombs? You say that you have a lot of serbian friends, have you ever let them know what you really think? What exactly you have told them? Do they support your views? Maybe you should speak about crimes on Serbs done by albanians and NATO.
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"Albanian Serb tit-for-tats aside though, you, like so many other posters here keep refusing to answer the simple question. If Serbia under Milosevic was so innocent, why did it get bombed? Why didn't Albania or Macedonia for example, get bombed by the "criminal" NATO instead?"
(Ment, 5 November 2009 01:17)
Because none of it had anything to do with justice but all to do with politics.
Now you know.
pre 14 godina
Kosovo is Serbia!!!!!!
pre 14 godina
Answer me this, does the United States goverment give its condolence to the Mexican goverment everytime an illigal Mexican emegrant dies crossing the U.S. - Mexican boarder? NO, it doesn't. So explain why does "Serbia" have too?
(Delije, 6 November 2009 05:27)
Because Mexico is an independent country? Thanks Delije for articulating it better than any of us could.
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