Nine years since fall of Milošević regime

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well.

"Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well."
aRta

Albanians backed Enver Hoxha for a long time and prolonged the misery. Oh well.

aRta

Get a life! And a job! If it's possible in Kosovo!

Milosevic got ousted primarily because of the lost wars in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. I still remember the pictures in 2000 when Serbs were storming the parliament with the Skullhead flags used by the Royalist Cetniks.

Milosevic was one of the most popular people in Serbia in the end of the 80s and starting with the 90s. He had almost no opposition, except for a few freelancers like the journalists from B92. In fact, he labeled B92 as traitors and tried to supress it. It is therefore interesting to see when I read comments from right-wing Serbs on this page. But to speak of the democratization of Serbia is far to early. The murder of Djindic and the fires of the embassies in 2008 after the Kosovo independence speak a strong language that, still, to many right-wing elements in the Serbian society have very influential positions, just as the Orthodoxian church influences to much in politics .

And so we ask ourselves how much has really changed since Milosevic's failed policies were rejected?

Not enough has to be the answer. For sure he presided over hyperinflation, war etc but its not enough to live in a state of relative economic stability (not including the last year) and to live in peace.

The point is that not enough has changed - for years the Surcin / Zemun gang were still running things and it took the murder of the Prime Minister for some (not really serious) action to be taken.

In Serbia we have this problem that too many people think that slow, incremental steps can improve society. That might be true in a normal situation but Serbia has not been functioning under normal conditions for the last decade or so.

Therefore more radical measures are called for in many areas.

I'd just like to remind posters who think that Milosevic was a popular hero in the 90's to look at the electoral evidence. Milosevic and SPS were forced again and again to form coaltion governments (or deals in parliament) with parties such as SRS and New Democracy (DB Mihajlovic) etc.

The point is that Milosevic was not popular but that people felt there was no suitable alternative. I mean you have a ballot with Milosevic, Seselj and Draskovic who would you pick?
It might be that people decided to pick the least unstable. Of course it wasn't always like that but this was the picture presented to us in the media.

That is why Albanians have a good alibi when they refused to take part in elections.

...and behind it all stood IMF who first started the finacial misery and CIA & National endowment for democrasy that rented crowd and payed their expences...

"Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well."
aRta

Albanians backed Enver Hoxha for a long time and prolonged the misery. Oh well.
(MikeC, 5 October 2009 12:26)

Your coment has nothing to do with aRTA's coment.
If you had compared Enver Hoxha's rule of Albania from end WW2 and Tito's rule of Yugoslavia from end of WW2 till their deaths, then I would have given you thumbs up.

"The point is that Milosevic was not popular but that people felt there was no suitable alternative. I mean you have a ballot with Milosevic, Seselj and Draskovic who would you pick?"

-- Absolutely right bganon, and this is something most of the knee-jerk comments below yours fail to understand. Milosevic - and I have no love for the man - never campaigned on promises of a Great Serbia ("Greater Serbia" was an invention by the West to justify actions against Serbia). Milosevic almost always campaigned on being the most dependable person for stability and continuity. The SRS was convenient in that is served as the nationalistic punching bag, while the democratic opposition were constantly branded as fifth column elements who were in bed with Soros. Never in Milosevic's campaigns did he ever advance sectarian nationalism, although sectarian nationalism was a convenient tool for him to remain in power and demobilize any opposition. Serbia is indeed a better place without him. But the residual effects left over by the Milosevic regime have not only become part of a large percentage of Serbian political culture, but has also been co-opted by the pro-Western elements in an attempt to look strong.

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well.
(aRta, 5 October 2009 11:57)

Albanians always bet on the horse which was leading the race.But always a horse which was about to run out of power and fall behind the others.This was the case with turks,then Hitler and now the institutions of new world order including US goverment and EU pupets.For some strange reason despite being on the loosing side they always got back their stake at the and of the race or even some extra money thanks to figures like comrade Tito.But what if next time as it is in case of all just bettings the initial stake will not be returned.

It is nice to see Serbia on a European path instead of the dark days of Milosevic.

and where is the diferent ? serbs still threat to balkan.

Berekely, if your going to make the claimn of those images p;rovide a link. BBC, CNN, NYT would have loved to claim that but they never did.

Your claim of Milosevic's popularity is absurd. Except for the 1990 presidential election he and no one elce can claim he won an election. He always won because of opposition boycotts, manipulation of voter lists, chan ing laws to prevent refugees or expats from voting. Even in the 1990 parliamentary elections [near the height of his popularity] his party obtained 45% of the vote but obtained over 2/3's of the seat because at that time we used a system similar to the one used in allegedly "democratic" Anglo-Saxon countries.

Plus, the claium that jounrliasts were his only opposition is absurd. You had an opposition that obtained more votes then he did in everyh election. You had opposition parties who had more membership then his party. Please actually read something about the politics of Serbia in the 90s or get knowledge on the subject, like bganon has and is, and do not spout out sentences you repeadetly read on CNN or BBC or bad exampels of journalism in the west.

And your notion that strong right-wing voices are an anti-democratic sign are absurd. In a democracy all voices should be allowed, whether they are right-wing or left-wing. Maybe you should learn about free speech.

Furthermore. Plenty of European states have gone to the right, but only a fool make similar claims to them. Somehow Serbia is treated as a special case, but if western states were facing some of the same crap Serbia is forced to deal with the situation would be the same as it is here if not worst. [Imagine how the U.S. would act if foreign powers were plotting to recognize indepencence of Latino populated areas or more likely violate U.S. soveirgnity].

And so what if rightwing voices are present on B92 site. You are reading the English section. I'm pretty sure a minority of Serbian citizens actually read the English site and that with the exception of a few individuals they are mostly diaspora Serbs who are far more right wing then Serbs in Serbia (Seselj became the right wing lunatic after living in the US, Draskovic was egged on by Chicago based Chetnik groups, Captain Dragan essentially lived his life in Australia [where he was involved with anti-communist groups and worked as a mercenary], Obraz is highly influenced by diaspora Serb groups who favoured theocracy and were based in the U.S.].

It seems that the worst things in Serbia couldn't have happenned without diaspora Serbs, bread in the west [

Slobo is gone but no much has changed. SPS with the same people is again in power.

Bganon,

the Albanians could have voted in 1992 for Milan Panic. 700,000 to a million Albanian vogtes would have been enough to force a second round (chances are he would have lost).

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well. -- aRTa

Funny. Slobo rise because IMF and US supported him. Becoming enemy because he wouldn't push their agenda.

And Kostunica. Well he was the only opposition leader who had no ties to Slobo, never was communist or SPS, and never favoured a government with Slobo.

He was also favoured by the west. So it anything it seems the wests meddling has put in these "horses" this character speaks off.

Nevermind that under Kostunica, democratization started, the economy grew faster then in the 1994-98 period and under Djindjic, the western plans on Kosovo were delayed from anywhere from 5-7 years. But no I guess Serbia should ignore this and cry that relations with the EU are such in a bad state, even though for all the decrying of Kostunica chances are it would not of been even better with others in power.

(szemi, 5 October 2009 13:49Albanians always bet on the horse which was leading the race.But always a horse which was about to run out of power and fall behind the others.This was the case with turks,)
I think I would have left this part out in order to prove a point--a horse that runs an empire for more than 500 years is a pretty strong horse!

"Slobo is gone but no much has changed. SPS with the same people is again in power."
Olf

If not much has changed then I'm really impressed Serbia has been able to get white schengen. If Albania is so much better of why is nothing happening there. No wars since WW2 and still it's after countries like Somalia when it comes to livingstandards.

Serbia is less independent today than it was under the Milosevic regime. Under Milosevic, the country controlled most of its economy, not corporations. This was his greatest sin, and because of that we were ruthlessly bombed. It is common knowledge that western money brought DOS to power, and that the 2000 election is very much contested. There should have been a second round, that's just how things are. People prefer to ignore that fact. DOS was in all ways undemocratic. Nothing is democratic about it in fact... it is something organized by the west, for purposes of opening up the country to western capital accumulation. It is not some organic movement from within serbia. Otherwise DOS and OTPOR would not have accepted so many millions of dollars from abroad. But, things go as they go. Serbia is in as many problems now as it was before. In many ways it is worse today than it was in 1998, before the bombing.

And a message to the annoying albanian whiners here - had you people not boycotted the democratic process, milosevic would never have come to power or remained in power. Minorities decide who becomes president in serbia. The albanians still seem to not realize this. They wanted milosevic to be in power, that's why they did not vote for other candidates when there were elections.

I think I would have left this part out in order to prove a point--a horse that runs an empire for more than 500 years is a pretty strong horse!
(pss, 5 October 2009 15:27)

Yeah no doubt that turrkish horse was indeed very strong,but finally failed.And what a wide back it had being able to bring so many albanians to Balkans so that they can wash its horseshoes for several centuries.And what a mess it left behind leaving the track called "Balkans" after breaking the leg for good.

"The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it."
dony

Sure the CIA was behind it. What a coincidence. The same day thousands of Serbs gathered to remove Milosevic CIA has people there too. How could we have missed that! However before the CIA left Belgrade they forgot to tell the new government "they installed" to recognize Kosovo.
Great theory Einstein!

The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it.

Yaroslav you are right about Panic - that reasonable Kosovo Albanians would not have been alergic to him.

But it was still not realistic to expect them to vote for him. What was he offering them? In fact (although I would have to check back) I don't think he was even offering them the autonomy they had before 1990. For good or ill THE issue among Kosovo Albanians was the national question. If that is the priority you might as well take 5 more difficult years (and then break away) rather than many more years of Panic and DOS type parties which would have at the very best reintroduced more autonomy.

And you are also right about the initial support Milosevic had from the US and IMF. As you probably know Milosevic personally much preferred America to Russia. In fact there was much contradictory about the man.

However, by any historical standard his time was over on October 2000. And history will not be kind to him either, how could it?

The real story is the failure of DOS and successive governments to tackle the huge problems left as legacy. Its not enough just to look at the economy, its society that is more important.

I don't regret that he was ousted but believe that he would have lost the second round so it isn't an issue for me. People had finally had enough.

"Serbia is less independent today than it was under the Milosevic regime. Under Milosevic, the country controlled most of its economy, not corporations. This was his greatest sin, and because of that we were ruthlessly bombed."

This is the sheerest of sheer nonsense. The reason the US and IMF were initially behind Milosevic was precisely because they knew his pro-capitalist views, which they knew from his years as Serbian rep to IMF meetings in NY. Several thousand companies had been privatised before sanctions began in 1992, sanctions related to Bosnia, not to Slobo allegedly being too slow to privatise. Neither Tudjman in Croatia, nor Slovenia, nor Bosnia, were any faster than Slobo.

Sanctions themselves slowed down privatisation. But sanctions and war also allowed corrupt-illegal privatisation (usually caled theft) on a massive scale to take place - more massive than the legal privatisation of 19990-92. And just by coincidence, you people who write such ridiculous romanticisations of Milosevic, it happened that much of this public wealth looted from public companies fell into the hands of Milosevic's cronies (not to mention his son, a "corporation" in his own right. Take Zoran Todorovic,
former leader of the misnamed ``Yugoslav Left'', set up by Milosevic's wife, who directed state petrol firms while building the giant privately owned
T&M Trade company, becoming one of the richest men in Serbia. No, I guess the fact that oligarch Karic lived next door to Milosevic, and made his fortune in Kosovo, was entirely coincidental.

According to the Alternative Information Mreza, by 1994 ``half of Serbian industry has been quietly privatised at a rapid rate ... already in 72.6% of state enterprises, 660,000 employees have bought
shares ... Behind these shares, however, hide several hundred managers, from the Socialist Party, who make business dealings of a frankly capitalist character and virtually thieving manner, taking
the lion's share.''

Once sanctions were over, the legal stuff could begin again, with the privatisation legislation in 1997 to privatise the 75 top state companies (and much else). First score was selling half of Serbian Telecom to foreign interests, putting Serbia well ahead of Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia in flogging off such prime assets.

Trouble is, Serbia also said the whole of Kosovo was open to be flogged off, but the underground kosova Assembly declared that anyone buying in would be treated as neocolonialists. Which did put western investors in a bit of a bind, since up to then the west hadn't given a hoot about Kosova.

Privatisation has continued since Milosevic was ousted. Same difference. Like then, some think its too fast, some think its too slow. Privatisation has also got aster in Croatia since Tudjman was booted out in 2001. So you going to turn him and his band of Milosevic look-alikes and corrupt privatisers into heroes too?

The CIA didn't kick out Slobo, they just helped: they saw the writing on the wall, the people had been trying to boot him out since the late 1996 municipal elections when he had already lost everywhere in the country, so naturally the US and CIA moved in with cash to help choose the alternative, but there was going to be an alternative whether they did that or not.

Majority of Serbs think that W.Schengen was no earned but given away by EU.
(Olf, 6 October 2009 11:25)

And who designated you spokesperson for the "majority of Serbs?"

Yet another ridiculous comment.

MikeC, it is well known that the US and co helped finance and organize both DOS and Otpor. This is common knowledge. They intervened in our internal affairs. What happened was not democracy. Those thousands of people were frustrated with the hell that they lived in... the pro-West alliance painted a picture that said this is why you are living in hell, we have an alternative. After all this time the hell is still here, in some ways even worse. On top of everything, the goal was not get serbia to recognize kosovo or not, the goal was to end a system of state led economics. And hey, they succeeded.

I can see and hear an evolution of minds and attitudes taking place in Serbia. True, it is a slow one, but nevertheless -it's happening. Many hardheaded people that I know accept today that steps towards a better tomorrow are being taken. And yes, at times the movement stalls -but then again pressure to continue amounts to break the deadlock. And slowly also those who doubted the most are able to see a healthier Serbia arising.

Lazar, please study yourself -and facts. By writing that during Milosevic Serbia was economically more fit and independent than today you absolutely fool no-one. No-one, including yourself. You win nothing by repeating old mistakes. Progressive minds, innovators, reformers learns from mistakes. Regressive ones stay blind to errors and fake that there never was any.

MikeC 'If not much has changed then I'm really impressed Serbia has been able to get white schengen"

Have you asked yourself whether it deserved the white Schengen. Be honest with yourself and tell me.
Majority of Serbs think that W.Schengen was no earned but given away by EU.

i am not saying that Slobo should actually remain in power, some reforms should take place but there is also no doubt that US was also behind this,what they cannot achieve with war they achieve with colored revolutions..it happened in Ukraine, Georgia,Serbia, (almost) in Greece and Iran..
The point is that USA did not succeed in convincing Serbian people to give up Kosovo, despite of getting rid of Slobo, seems Serbs are too hard to handle for the US.
Kosovo is Serbia

The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it."
dony

Sure the CIA was behind it. What a coincidence. The same day thousands of Serbs gathered to remove Milosevic CIA has people there too. How could we have missed that! However before the CIA left Belgrade they forgot to tell the new government "they installed" to recognize Kosovo.
Great theory Einstein!
(MikeC, 5 October 2009 20:42) not just CIA but half of the world wanted yougoslavia in peaces becouse shouldnt be in the first place.yougoslavia was a russians ally and was a threat to the west during the cold war.never the less the west did a great job.

Interesting how conspiracy theorists have gathered here today.

and still those hooligans and proletarians aren´t jailed away for 40 years, where they obviously belong ...

'I can see and hear an evolution of minds and attitudes taking place in Serbia.

Look again. prick up your ears. leave our minds alone. our attitude was and always will be freedom. right now and ten puppet governments down the line. everybody gets this about us in the end. but i guess some are slower than others.

and where is the diferent ? serbs still threat to balkan.

"Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well."
aRta

Albanians backed Enver Hoxha for a long time and prolonged the misery. Oh well.
(MikeC, 5 October 2009 12:26)

Your coment has nothing to do with aRTA's coment.
If you had compared Enver Hoxha's rule of Albania from end WW2 and Tito's rule of Yugoslavia from end of WW2 till their deaths, then I would have given you thumbs up.

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well.

"Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well."
aRta

Albanians backed Enver Hoxha for a long time and prolonged the misery. Oh well.

Slobo is gone but no much has changed. SPS with the same people is again in power.

aRta

Get a life! And a job! If it's possible in Kosovo!

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well.
(aRta, 5 October 2009 11:57)

Albanians always bet on the horse which was leading the race.But always a horse which was about to run out of power and fall behind the others.This was the case with turks,then Hitler and now the institutions of new world order including US goverment and EU pupets.For some strange reason despite being on the loosing side they always got back their stake at the and of the race or even some extra money thanks to figures like comrade Tito.But what if next time as it is in case of all just bettings the initial stake will not be returned.

"Slobo is gone but no much has changed. SPS with the same people is again in power."
Olf

If not much has changed then I'm really impressed Serbia has been able to get white schengen. If Albania is so much better of why is nothing happening there. No wars since WW2 and still it's after countries like Somalia when it comes to livingstandards.

Milosevic got ousted primarily because of the lost wars in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. I still remember the pictures in 2000 when Serbs were storming the parliament with the Skullhead flags used by the Royalist Cetniks.

Milosevic was one of the most popular people in Serbia in the end of the 80s and starting with the 90s. He had almost no opposition, except for a few freelancers like the journalists from B92. In fact, he labeled B92 as traitors and tried to supress it. It is therefore interesting to see when I read comments from right-wing Serbs on this page. But to speak of the democratization of Serbia is far to early. The murder of Djindic and the fires of the embassies in 2008 after the Kosovo independence speak a strong language that, still, to many right-wing elements in the Serbian society have very influential positions, just as the Orthodoxian church influences to much in politics .

Serbia is less independent today than it was under the Milosevic regime. Under Milosevic, the country controlled most of its economy, not corporations. This was his greatest sin, and because of that we were ruthlessly bombed. It is common knowledge that western money brought DOS to power, and that the 2000 election is very much contested. There should have been a second round, that's just how things are. People prefer to ignore that fact. DOS was in all ways undemocratic. Nothing is democratic about it in fact... it is something organized by the west, for purposes of opening up the country to western capital accumulation. It is not some organic movement from within serbia. Otherwise DOS and OTPOR would not have accepted so many millions of dollars from abroad. But, things go as they go. Serbia is in as many problems now as it was before. In many ways it is worse today than it was in 1998, before the bombing.

And a message to the annoying albanian whiners here - had you people not boycotted the democratic process, milosevic would never have come to power or remained in power. Minorities decide who becomes president in serbia. The albanians still seem to not realize this. They wanted milosevic to be in power, that's why they did not vote for other candidates when there were elections.

...and behind it all stood IMF who first started the finacial misery and CIA & National endowment for democrasy that rented crowd and payed their expences...

It is nice to see Serbia on a European path instead of the dark days of Milosevic.

I think I would have left this part out in order to prove a point--a horse that runs an empire for more than 500 years is a pretty strong horse!
(pss, 5 October 2009 15:27)

Yeah no doubt that turrkish horse was indeed very strong,but finally failed.And what a wide back it had being able to bring so many albanians to Balkans so that they can wash its horseshoes for several centuries.And what a mess it left behind leaving the track called "Balkans" after breaking the leg for good.

The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it.

(szemi, 5 October 2009 13:49Albanians always bet on the horse which was leading the race.But always a horse which was about to run out of power and fall behind the others.This was the case with turks,)
I think I would have left this part out in order to prove a point--a horse that runs an empire for more than 500 years is a pretty strong horse!

"The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it."
dony

Sure the CIA was behind it. What a coincidence. The same day thousands of Serbs gathered to remove Milosevic CIA has people there too. How could we have missed that! However before the CIA left Belgrade they forgot to tell the new government "they installed" to recognize Kosovo.
Great theory Einstein!

And so we ask ourselves how much has really changed since Milosevic's failed policies were rejected?

Not enough has to be the answer. For sure he presided over hyperinflation, war etc but its not enough to live in a state of relative economic stability (not including the last year) and to live in peace.

The point is that not enough has changed - for years the Surcin / Zemun gang were still running things and it took the murder of the Prime Minister for some (not really serious) action to be taken.

In Serbia we have this problem that too many people think that slow, incremental steps can improve society. That might be true in a normal situation but Serbia has not been functioning under normal conditions for the last decade or so.

Therefore more radical measures are called for in many areas.

I'd just like to remind posters who think that Milosevic was a popular hero in the 90's to look at the electoral evidence. Milosevic and SPS were forced again and again to form coaltion governments (or deals in parliament) with parties such as SRS and New Democracy (DB Mihajlovic) etc.

The point is that Milosevic was not popular but that people felt there was no suitable alternative. I mean you have a ballot with Milosevic, Seselj and Draskovic who would you pick?
It might be that people decided to pick the least unstable. Of course it wasn't always like that but this was the picture presented to us in the media.

That is why Albanians have a good alibi when they refused to take part in elections.

Bganon,

the Albanians could have voted in 1992 for Milan Panic. 700,000 to a million Albanian vogtes would have been enough to force a second round (chances are he would have lost).

Berekely, if your going to make the claimn of those images p;rovide a link. BBC, CNN, NYT would have loved to claim that but they never did.

Your claim of Milosevic's popularity is absurd. Except for the 1990 presidential election he and no one elce can claim he won an election. He always won because of opposition boycotts, manipulation of voter lists, chan ing laws to prevent refugees or expats from voting. Even in the 1990 parliamentary elections [near the height of his popularity] his party obtained 45% of the vote but obtained over 2/3's of the seat because at that time we used a system similar to the one used in allegedly "democratic" Anglo-Saxon countries.

Plus, the claium that jounrliasts were his only opposition is absurd. You had an opposition that obtained more votes then he did in everyh election. You had opposition parties who had more membership then his party. Please actually read something about the politics of Serbia in the 90s or get knowledge on the subject, like bganon has and is, and do not spout out sentences you repeadetly read on CNN or BBC or bad exampels of journalism in the west.

And your notion that strong right-wing voices are an anti-democratic sign are absurd. In a democracy all voices should be allowed, whether they are right-wing or left-wing. Maybe you should learn about free speech.

Furthermore. Plenty of European states have gone to the right, but only a fool make similar claims to them. Somehow Serbia is treated as a special case, but if western states were facing some of the same crap Serbia is forced to deal with the situation would be the same as it is here if not worst. [Imagine how the U.S. would act if foreign powers were plotting to recognize indepencence of Latino populated areas or more likely violate U.S. soveirgnity].

And so what if rightwing voices are present on B92 site. You are reading the English section. I'm pretty sure a minority of Serbian citizens actually read the English site and that with the exception of a few individuals they are mostly diaspora Serbs who are far more right wing then Serbs in Serbia (Seselj became the right wing lunatic after living in the US, Draskovic was egged on by Chicago based Chetnik groups, Captain Dragan essentially lived his life in Australia [where he was involved with anti-communist groups and worked as a mercenary], Obraz is highly influenced by diaspora Serb groups who favoured theocracy and were based in the U.S.].

It seems that the worst things in Serbia couldn't have happenned without diaspora Serbs, bread in the west [

"The point is that Milosevic was not popular but that people felt there was no suitable alternative. I mean you have a ballot with Milosevic, Seselj and Draskovic who would you pick?"

-- Absolutely right bganon, and this is something most of the knee-jerk comments below yours fail to understand. Milosevic - and I have no love for the man - never campaigned on promises of a Great Serbia ("Greater Serbia" was an invention by the West to justify actions against Serbia). Milosevic almost always campaigned on being the most dependable person for stability and continuity. The SRS was convenient in that is served as the nationalistic punching bag, while the democratic opposition were constantly branded as fifth column elements who were in bed with Soros. Never in Milosevic's campaigns did he ever advance sectarian nationalism, although sectarian nationalism was a convenient tool for him to remain in power and demobilize any opposition. Serbia is indeed a better place without him. But the residual effects left over by the Milosevic regime have not only become part of a large percentage of Serbian political culture, but has also been co-opted by the pro-Western elements in an attempt to look strong.

Serbs backed the wrong horse in Milosevic and Kostunica only prolonged the misery. Oh well. -- aRTa

Funny. Slobo rise because IMF and US supported him. Becoming enemy because he wouldn't push their agenda.

And Kostunica. Well he was the only opposition leader who had no ties to Slobo, never was communist or SPS, and never favoured a government with Slobo.

He was also favoured by the west. So it anything it seems the wests meddling has put in these "horses" this character speaks off.

Nevermind that under Kostunica, democratization started, the economy grew faster then in the 1994-98 period and under Djindjic, the western plans on Kosovo were delayed from anywhere from 5-7 years. But no I guess Serbia should ignore this and cry that relations with the EU are such in a bad state, even though for all the decrying of Kostunica chances are it would not of been even better with others in power.

and still those hooligans and proletarians aren´t jailed away for 40 years, where they obviously belong ...

MikeC 'If not much has changed then I'm really impressed Serbia has been able to get white schengen"

Have you asked yourself whether it deserved the white Schengen. Be honest with yourself and tell me.
Majority of Serbs think that W.Schengen was no earned but given away by EU.

The CIA brought down the Slobo government and those fools who stormed parliament are too stupid to see it."
dony

Sure the CIA was behind it. What a coincidence. The same day thousands of Serbs gathered to remove Milosevic CIA has people there too. How could we have missed that! However before the CIA left Belgrade they forgot to tell the new government "they installed" to recognize Kosovo.
Great theory Einstein!
(MikeC, 5 October 2009 20:42) not just CIA but half of the world wanted yougoslavia in peaces becouse shouldnt be in the first place.yougoslavia was a russians ally and was a threat to the west during the cold war.never the less the west did a great job.

MikeC, it is well known that the US and co helped finance and organize both DOS and Otpor. This is common knowledge. They intervened in our internal affairs. What happened was not democracy. Those thousands of people were frustrated with the hell that they lived in... the pro-West alliance painted a picture that said this is why you are living in hell, we have an alternative. After all this time the hell is still here, in some ways even worse. On top of everything, the goal was not get serbia to recognize kosovo or not, the goal was to end a system of state led economics. And hey, they succeeded.

"Serbia is less independent today than it was under the Milosevic regime. Under Milosevic, the country controlled most of its economy, not corporations. This was his greatest sin, and because of that we were ruthlessly bombed."

This is the sheerest of sheer nonsense. The reason the US and IMF were initially behind Milosevic was precisely because they knew his pro-capitalist views, which they knew from his years as Serbian rep to IMF meetings in NY. Several thousand companies had been privatised before sanctions began in 1992, sanctions related to Bosnia, not to Slobo allegedly being too slow to privatise. Neither Tudjman in Croatia, nor Slovenia, nor Bosnia, were any faster than Slobo.

Sanctions themselves slowed down privatisation. But sanctions and war also allowed corrupt-illegal privatisation (usually caled theft) on a massive scale to take place - more massive than the legal privatisation of 19990-92. And just by coincidence, you people who write such ridiculous romanticisations of Milosevic, it happened that much of this public wealth looted from public companies fell into the hands of Milosevic's cronies (not to mention his son, a "corporation" in his own right. Take Zoran Todorovic,
former leader of the misnamed ``Yugoslav Left'', set up by Milosevic's wife, who directed state petrol firms while building the giant privately owned
T&M Trade company, becoming one of the richest men in Serbia. No, I guess the fact that oligarch Karic lived next door to Milosevic, and made his fortune in Kosovo, was entirely coincidental.

According to the Alternative Information Mreza, by 1994 ``half of Serbian industry has been quietly privatised at a rapid rate ... already in 72.6% of state enterprises, 660,000 employees have bought
shares ... Behind these shares, however, hide several hundred managers, from the Socialist Party, who make business dealings of a frankly capitalist character and virtually thieving manner, taking
the lion's share.''

Once sanctions were over, the legal stuff could begin again, with the privatisation legislation in 1997 to privatise the 75 top state companies (and much else). First score was selling half of Serbian Telecom to foreign interests, putting Serbia well ahead of Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia in flogging off such prime assets.

Trouble is, Serbia also said the whole of Kosovo was open to be flogged off, but the underground kosova Assembly declared that anyone buying in would be treated as neocolonialists. Which did put western investors in a bit of a bind, since up to then the west hadn't given a hoot about Kosova.

Privatisation has continued since Milosevic was ousted. Same difference. Like then, some think its too fast, some think its too slow. Privatisation has also got aster in Croatia since Tudjman was booted out in 2001. So you going to turn him and his band of Milosevic look-alikes and corrupt privatisers into heroes too?

The CIA didn't kick out Slobo, they just helped: they saw the writing on the wall, the people had been trying to boot him out since the late 1996 municipal elections when he had already lost everywhere in the country, so naturally the US and CIA moved in with cash to help choose the alternative, but there was going to be an alternative whether they did that or not.

i am not saying that Slobo should actually remain in power, some reforms should take place but there is also no doubt that US was also behind this,what they cannot achieve with war they achieve with colored revolutions..it happened in Ukraine, Georgia,Serbia, (almost) in Greece and Iran..
The point is that USA did not succeed in convincing Serbian people to give up Kosovo, despite of getting rid of Slobo, seems Serbs are too hard to handle for the US.
Kosovo is Serbia

I can see and hear an evolution of minds and attitudes taking place in Serbia. True, it is a slow one, but nevertheless -it's happening. Many hardheaded people that I know accept today that steps towards a better tomorrow are being taken. And yes, at times the movement stalls -but then again pressure to continue amounts to break the deadlock. And slowly also those who doubted the most are able to see a healthier Serbia arising.

Lazar, please study yourself -and facts. By writing that during Milosevic Serbia was economically more fit and independent than today you absolutely fool no-one. No-one, including yourself. You win nothing by repeating old mistakes. Progressive minds, innovators, reformers learns from mistakes. Regressive ones stay blind to errors and fake that there never was any.

Interesting how conspiracy theorists have gathered here today.

Majority of Serbs think that W.Schengen was no earned but given away by EU.
(Olf, 6 October 2009 11:25)

And who designated you spokesperson for the "majority of Serbs?"

Yet another ridiculous comment.

'I can see and hear an evolution of minds and attitudes taking place in Serbia.

Look again. prick up your ears. leave our minds alone. our attitude was and always will be freedom. right now and ten puppet governments down the line. everybody gets this about us in the end. but i guess some are slower than others.

Yaroslav you are right about Panic - that reasonable Kosovo Albanians would not have been alergic to him.

But it was still not realistic to expect them to vote for him. What was he offering them? In fact (although I would have to check back) I don't think he was even offering them the autonomy they had before 1990. For good or ill THE issue among Kosovo Albanians was the national question. If that is the priority you might as well take 5 more difficult years (and then break away) rather than many more years of Panic and DOS type parties which would have at the very best reintroduced more autonomy.

And you are also right about the initial support Milosevic had from the US and IMF. As you probably know Milosevic personally much preferred America to Russia. In fact there was much contradictory about the man.

However, by any historical standard his time was over on October 2000. And history will not be kind to him either, how could it?

The real story is the failure of DOS and successive governments to tackle the huge problems left as legacy. Its not enough just to look at the economy, its society that is more important.

I don't regret that he was ousted but believe that he would have lost the second round so it isn't an issue for me. People had finally had enough.