Socialists oust Conservatives in Greece

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

You're probably misinformed.
There is a cross party decision on Kosovo amongst Greek politicians and this will not change unless there is an agreement between
Serbia and Kosovo.
(Leonidas, 5 October 2009 15:28)

Leonidas,

You can find planty of such "credible" information on newkosovareport.The best source if you want to laugh your head off.Otherwise albanians are world champions in dreaming.They have even dreamed several times of being europen champion in soccer and basketball.Some dream while the southern neighbours fullfill their dreams.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

You're probably misinformed.
There is a cross party decision on Kosovo amongst Greek politicians and this will not change unless there is an agreement between
Serbia and Kosovo.

The Socialist in Greece are a far worse Goverment for Albanians living in Greece never mind recognizing Kosovo, this Goverment partiucallry has no love lost for Albanians domastically or internatioanlly so poster dream on about this new Goverment recognizing Kosovo, in fact this new Goverment is likely to be closer with Serbia than the past Government.

Where on Earth did hear such a stupid thing of possible recognition? Was is it in Pristina Cafe?

You really should not make things up here on B92 because most reader here are well informed about such things that concern Serbia. It just makes you look desperate.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

Has he actually said that? It is not something I'd expect.

"Is it possible that yet another Papandreau has replaced yet another Karamanlis?
(DimTuc)"

-- So funny it's no longer funny :)

"George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi)"

-- No he hasn't.

Is it possible that yet another Papandreau has replaced yet another Karamanlis? If you chuck in the odd Mitsotakis and the odd fascist junta, the whole of post-1945 Greek history ahs been the story of these two dynasties. Not quite north korean, but almost has that kind of ring about it.

I think corruption was one the biggest issues facing the Greek electorate.

Karamanlis was voted out because he failed to make ground on corruption even after specific promises he gave to the electorate, with so many members of his goverment being directly implicated in massive scandals.

Will Papandreou do anything to curb corruption? I doubt it.The socialist party is hotbed for corruption with its deep ties to the civil service and Unions.His father was also directly implicated in the corruption scandal of the bank of Crete.

Papandreous economic programme to get the country out of the crisis doesn't hold water water either.
He is against freezing public sector salaries(unprodective labour) because this will reduce tax revenues.Instead he proposes a stimulus which will hire more workers in the public servises which will have to be financed by further borrowing.With this logic it won't be too long before he starts knocking at the IMF door which obviously will impose the harshest conditions in order to approve the loan.

I don't believe there will be any change with the new goverment.The political favouritism will continue and
so will corruption.

I say this because the people are not just corrupt to the bone but largely ignorant. They are easily persuaded to change their political allegiance because of their personal gain. Their sense of duty to their fellow Greeks rarely extends further than their own family.

I know that a number of my countrymen won't agree with me but unless people change themselves there won't be any
real chang in Greece regardles of who is in power.

"Papandreu [sic] has said that if he is elected, he will work in recognizing Kosovo right after Serbia gets candidate status, and has said that this could happen in 2010 or 2011. He said this while on a show (Top Story, I think) when he visited Albania before the elections there."

-- I think that's rather unlikely for a number of reasons.

1. Greek politics are highly volatile and contentious. Plus, Greeks protest over the slightest hiccup. The Greek government just came to power and is certainly not interested in doing anything too radical. While recognizing Kosovo gives Kosovo nothing it already has (or wants), Greece is not about to play with Serbia's territorial issues when Greece supports/objects to a number of issues in Cyprus and FYROM.

2. Whether people like it or not, whether they want to believe it or not, Greeks as a whole just don't like Albanians. I'm not getting into the reasons behind it, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the Greek population would rather keep good relations with Serbs (religion, tourism, historical memories) than appeasing a number of Albanian potentates in Pristina that do nothing for Greece. Greece is not about to loose a close political and economic ally in the region by recognizing Kosovo to the ire of Belgrade.

3. The US doesn’t have that degree of pull in Greece to force it into something it doesn’t want to do.

4. By the time 2010/2011 comes up, two other issues may have passed that change the game:

a) ICJ ruling downgrades Kosovo to semi-sovereign protectorate, making recognitions irrelevant

b) Knowing Greek politics, Papandreou will be ousted by Karamanalis again making the issue of recognition a non-entity.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....

Papandreu has said that if he is elected, he will work in recognizing Kosovo right after Serbia gets candidate status, and has said that this could happen in 2010 or 2011. He said this while on a show (Top Story, I think) when he visited Albania before the elections there.

To Ptoleme

Do you know of any Albanian immigrants that have been granted Greek citisenship and therefore the right to vote?Well the statistics coming out of the Greek ministry of interior indicate that apart from a number of Greeks from Northen Epirus no Albanian has been granted any citisenship.Therefore,your allegation is an Albanian wishfull thinking.

Also your claim about recognition of Albanian passports is false.Passports from Kosovo are not stamped by Greek immigration offices and instead passengers are issued with a form which includes their full details.

Finally, Kosovo recognition is not going to happen in the forseeable future unless there are concrete changes in the status of Kosovo agreed at the UN.

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors
(niko kurkuli, 5 October 2009 14:27

Yes it is, and it will be for many years to come.
(Kosova-USA, 5 October 2009 21:25)

Haha another funny albanian post.Could you describe me exactly how this colonial relationship looks like?If it was so Brits could have easily forced the greek to side with narcoterorists in 1999 but somehow things worked the other way .So guys stop projecting your mentality and status on others.I understand that those who were someone's boot polishers all time have developed some strong inferiority complexes.The truth is that currenly there is only one traditional colonony in Europe and it is called Kosovo.And it will be until it is retaken by its original masters.

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors

Mike I was merely stating what has transpired and what Papandreou has said regarding Albanians when in Albania this summer. We should not dismiss the fact that 15 socialist MPs from Albania's PS campaigned for him in Greece, giving PASOK the vast majority of Albanian votes. Now we may not accurately predict what the future may hold, as a portion of that rests with the determination of the PM-elect to fulfill his promises.

Now I cannot go around claiming anything about how much Greeks like/dislike Albanians or like/dislike Serbs, and how much Greece does business with Albania, Serbia and Kosovo respectively, as I do not have those figures. I'll just leave that to you to decide as you seem to have that data handy. And as Jeremic says, we should not prejudice the ICJ's final decision.

But regarding Greece's ties to Serbia, we should keep in mind that it did not participate in the ICJ case when it could have, it maintains a liaison office in Kosovo (take this anyway you want), and it has recognized Kosovo passports. Now I am not saying that these amount to recognition, but it sure does seem that it is headed that way, especially when there is an alternative i.e. doing the exact opposite.

RE: George Papandreou

George Papandreou is a socialist and had close ties with the old Milosevic regime and the SPS is now in a power sharing agreement with Tadic in Serbia.

Karamanlis leadership was continually rocked with corruption and the highest ministerial positions. He failed to take action and clean out those influences within his own cabinet.

Greece continues to struggle with a myriad of economic problems of which Papandreau will probalby make worse as he promised the world to the Greek electorate.

His message got across to mainstream Greece as many unemployed Greeks watched him in the cafes of all the small towns and villages of Greece.

Ptoleme,

I'm not saying the scenario you've envisioned is impossible. I'm saying, based on what I know, it's highly improbable. Were Greece the only holdout in Europe, then it would be a different story. But the decision to recognize or not does not change anything inside Kosovo, nor give any more legitimacy to its contested sovereignty. I can imagine that as soon as the government is sworn in and cabinet posts are filled, Jeremic will seek guarantees of continued Greek-Serbian policy. Recognizing would be *highly* unpopular in Greece and could pull down his government.

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors
(niko kurkuli, 5 October 2009 14:27

Yes it is, and it will be for many years to come.

This greek party is not a true socialist party. They should be renamed social democrat, and same goes for serbia's SPS. The only real socialist parties left are in Lukashenko's Belarus and Zyuganov's misnamed commie party in Russia.

Ptoleme...

If what you say is true, that Socialist Party candidates have been taking sides in Greek elections, then they really deserved to lose to Berisha. The last thing we need is cross-country, cross-party political feuds interfering with country-level business. Can these folks really be that shortsighted?

Mike & szemi
------------

Whatever your beliefs about Greek-Albanian affections... one thing is true. We have a track record of actually resolving issues that affect our two countries, which is more than can be said about the rest of the countries in the region.

All the best to the new government.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors

Is it possible that yet another Papandreau has replaced yet another Karamanlis? If you chuck in the odd Mitsotakis and the odd fascist junta, the whole of post-1945 Greek history ahs been the story of these two dynasties. Not quite north korean, but almost has that kind of ring about it.

Papandreu has said that if he is elected, he will work in recognizing Kosovo right after Serbia gets candidate status, and has said that this could happen in 2010 or 2011. He said this while on a show (Top Story, I think) when he visited Albania before the elections there.

"Papandreu [sic] has said that if he is elected, he will work in recognizing Kosovo right after Serbia gets candidate status, and has said that this could happen in 2010 or 2011. He said this while on a show (Top Story, I think) when he visited Albania before the elections there."

-- I think that's rather unlikely for a number of reasons.

1. Greek politics are highly volatile and contentious. Plus, Greeks protest over the slightest hiccup. The Greek government just came to power and is certainly not interested in doing anything too radical. While recognizing Kosovo gives Kosovo nothing it already has (or wants), Greece is not about to play with Serbia's territorial issues when Greece supports/objects to a number of issues in Cyprus and FYROM.

2. Whether people like it or not, whether they want to believe it or not, Greeks as a whole just don't like Albanians. I'm not getting into the reasons behind it, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the Greek population would rather keep good relations with Serbs (religion, tourism, historical memories) than appeasing a number of Albanian potentates in Pristina that do nothing for Greece. Greece is not about to loose a close political and economic ally in the region by recognizing Kosovo to the ire of Belgrade.

3. The US doesn’t have that degree of pull in Greece to force it into something it doesn’t want to do.

4. By the time 2010/2011 comes up, two other issues may have passed that change the game:

a) ICJ ruling downgrades Kosovo to semi-sovereign protectorate, making recognitions irrelevant

b) Knowing Greek politics, Papandreou will be ousted by Karamanalis again making the issue of recognition a non-entity.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

You're probably misinformed.
There is a cross party decision on Kosovo amongst Greek politicians and this will not change unless there is an agreement between
Serbia and Kosovo.
(Leonidas, 5 October 2009 15:28)

Leonidas,

You can find planty of such "credible" information on newkosovareport.The best source if you want to laugh your head off.Otherwise albanians are world champions in dreaming.They have even dreamed several times of being europen champion in soccer and basketball.Some dream while the southern neighbours fullfill their dreams.

I think corruption was one the biggest issues facing the Greek electorate.

Karamanlis was voted out because he failed to make ground on corruption even after specific promises he gave to the electorate, with so many members of his goverment being directly implicated in massive scandals.

Will Papandreou do anything to curb corruption? I doubt it.The socialist party is hotbed for corruption with its deep ties to the civil service and Unions.His father was also directly implicated in the corruption scandal of the bank of Crete.

Papandreous economic programme to get the country out of the crisis doesn't hold water water either.
He is against freezing public sector salaries(unprodective labour) because this will reduce tax revenues.Instead he proposes a stimulus which will hire more workers in the public servises which will have to be financed by further borrowing.With this logic it won't be too long before he starts knocking at the IMF door which obviously will impose the harshest conditions in order to approve the loan.

I don't believe there will be any change with the new goverment.The political favouritism will continue and
so will corruption.

I say this because the people are not just corrupt to the bone but largely ignorant. They are easily persuaded to change their political allegiance because of their personal gain. Their sense of duty to their fellow Greeks rarely extends further than their own family.

I know that a number of my countrymen won't agree with me but unless people change themselves there won't be any
real chang in Greece regardles of who is in power.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

Has he actually said that? It is not something I'd expect.

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors
(niko kurkuli, 5 October 2009 14:27

Yes it is, and it will be for many years to come.

George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi, 5 October 2009 11:52)

You're probably misinformed.
There is a cross party decision on Kosovo amongst Greek politicians and this will not change unless there is an agreement between
Serbia and Kosovo.

Mike I was merely stating what has transpired and what Papandreou has said regarding Albanians when in Albania this summer. We should not dismiss the fact that 15 socialist MPs from Albania's PS campaigned for him in Greece, giving PASOK the vast majority of Albanian votes. Now we may not accurately predict what the future may hold, as a portion of that rests with the determination of the PM-elect to fulfill his promises.

Now I cannot go around claiming anything about how much Greeks like/dislike Albanians or like/dislike Serbs, and how much Greece does business with Albania, Serbia and Kosovo respectively, as I do not have those figures. I'll just leave that to you to decide as you seem to have that data handy. And as Jeremic says, we should not prejudice the ICJ's final decision.

But regarding Greece's ties to Serbia, we should keep in mind that it did not participate in the ICJ case when it could have, it maintains a liaison office in Kosovo (take this anyway you want), and it has recognized Kosovo passports. Now I am not saying that these amount to recognition, but it sure does seem that it is headed that way, especially when there is an alternative i.e. doing the exact opposite.

This greek party is not a true socialist party. They should be renamed social democrat, and same goes for serbia's SPS. The only real socialist parties left are in Lukashenko's Belarus and Zyuganov's misnamed commie party in Russia.

The Socialist in Greece are a far worse Goverment for Albanians living in Greece never mind recognizing Kosovo, this Goverment partiucallry has no love lost for Albanians domastically or internatioanlly so poster dream on about this new Goverment recognizing Kosovo, in fact this new Goverment is likely to be closer with Serbia than the past Government.

Where on Earth did hear such a stupid thing of possible recognition? Was is it in Pristina Cafe?

You really should not make things up here on B92 because most reader here are well informed about such things that concern Serbia. It just makes you look desperate.

"Is it possible that yet another Papandreau has replaced yet another Karamanlis?
(DimTuc)"

-- So funny it's no longer funny :)

"George Papandreou has promised that he will recognize Kosovo when he comes to power. Let's wait and see....
(Demi)"

-- No he hasn't.

RE: George Papandreou

George Papandreou is a socialist and had close ties with the old Milosevic regime and the SPS is now in a power sharing agreement with Tadic in Serbia.

Karamanlis leadership was continually rocked with corruption and the highest ministerial positions. He failed to take action and clean out those influences within his own cabinet.

Greece continues to struggle with a myriad of economic problems of which Papandreau will probalby make worse as he promised the world to the Greek electorate.

His message got across to mainstream Greece as many unemployed Greeks watched him in the cafes of all the small towns and villages of Greece.

To Ptoleme

Do you know of any Albanian immigrants that have been granted Greek citisenship and therefore the right to vote?Well the statistics coming out of the Greek ministry of interior indicate that apart from a number of Greeks from Northen Epirus no Albanian has been granted any citisenship.Therefore,your allegation is an Albanian wishfull thinking.

Also your claim about recognition of Albanian passports is false.Passports from Kosovo are not stamped by Greek immigration offices and instead passengers are issued with a form which includes their full details.

Finally, Kosovo recognition is not going to happen in the forseeable future unless there are concrete changes in the status of Kosovo agreed at the UN.

is greece still british colony??i believe behind closed doors
(niko kurkuli, 5 October 2009 14:27

Yes it is, and it will be for many years to come.
(Kosova-USA, 5 October 2009 21:25)

Haha another funny albanian post.Could you describe me exactly how this colonial relationship looks like?If it was so Brits could have easily forced the greek to side with narcoterorists in 1999 but somehow things worked the other way .So guys stop projecting your mentality and status on others.I understand that those who were someone's boot polishers all time have developed some strong inferiority complexes.The truth is that currenly there is only one traditional colonony in Europe and it is called Kosovo.And it will be until it is retaken by its original masters.

Ptoleme...

If what you say is true, that Socialist Party candidates have been taking sides in Greek elections, then they really deserved to lose to Berisha. The last thing we need is cross-country, cross-party political feuds interfering with country-level business. Can these folks really be that shortsighted?

Mike & szemi
------------

Whatever your beliefs about Greek-Albanian affections... one thing is true. We have a track record of actually resolving issues that affect our two countries, which is more than can be said about the rest of the countries in the region.

All the best to the new government.

Ptoleme,

I'm not saying the scenario you've envisioned is impossible. I'm saying, based on what I know, it's highly improbable. Were Greece the only holdout in Europe, then it would be a different story. But the decision to recognize or not does not change anything inside Kosovo, nor give any more legitimacy to its contested sovereignty. I can imagine that as soon as the government is sworn in and cabinet posts are filled, Jeremic will seek guarantees of continued Greek-Serbian policy. Recognizing would be *highly* unpopular in Greece and could pull down his government.