Kosova-USA, Mr and Mrs Taton have every right to comment as theyhave lost their son. You, on the other hand, are a nationalist troublemaker with nothing to contribute except racist bile.
I deplore the fact that an innocent man, regardless of nationality, has lost his life in such a needless and violent attack. I absolutely deplore the actions of the perpetrators of this crime and as such would agree that they receive the highest possible sentence. If, as suggested, this was acted out by people who were politically motivated then I would hope that the watching world will rally against the violent extremists and show added support for those who oppose them. As for those posters who are trying to turn this into a Serb hating propoganda event, shame on you. All clear thinking, normal individuals will see this for what it is, an horrific attack that deserves the strongest justice. I have visited Belgrade on a number of occasions and been made to feel incredibly welcome and I will not hesitate to visit Belgrade again. One incident cannot, however sad, be used to tarnish the good nature of the overwhelming vast majority of law abiding and very friendly Serbs in Belgrade. I would hope that most would want to show those few who seek to make this a nationalistic issue that they cannot influence people in this way. Travel to Belgrade and see for yourselves what a welcoming city it really is.
The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity,
Zoran answered:Stop with the politics and deal with the crime:
this is the first and absolutly necessary step.
and i should write deal with the crimeS...
You can not create trust and confidence if crime is not condamned,and if the autor of these crimes are free.
As long as you-or your institutions,protect criminals,you can not demobilize the nationalist party on the other side and you can not expect that the other side will trust you.
Why was, and is the serbian police so tolerant with these grups is an other question that zoran asked,and that many of us ask too.Are they in your police so unprofessionel? i do know that no,so why?
Just political game here to gain point among their population,among bruxelles?
These are the questions that serbian civil society has to deal with.To whom do these grups bring benefits,to be so tolerated?
Mike -- we are not on opposite sides. we need to work harder -- all of us -- to maneuver the level of discourse somewhere into a normal and civilized range. we need to explore some mutual respect, and learn to listen to both the criticisms and very real pain that different people bring to this forum.
also, if we have integrity, we need to name and condemn hate, trash-talk and violence on all sides. it is a cop-out to say: "this isn't california, this isn't the US, we say whatever we want." words can hold a great deal of power, esp.ly abusive ones.
why not take this tragic opportunity, and try to find some good, from evil.
Actually, it's not the dearth of your comments that have, as you claim, forced me to look elsewhere (again, you're no martyr), but rather the acceptance that beneath the selectiveness of your opinions and social evaluations that I often find hard to take as genuine, you and I see eye to eye on principles of democracy, civil society, and shared communities.
Yes, you're absolutely right there are "nationalists" on both sides that use incredibly vitriolic words to express their opinions. And yes, there are plenty of "Kosova-USA's" (or should I write Kosovo-USSR's) in the pro-Serbian camp. But throwing around insults and sweeping stereotypes to score points gets us nowhere except reinforcing our own entrenched beliefs and historical memories, and furthers the determination never to cooperate with the other side.
In regards to your "esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media" comment, I think that this is certainly not endemic to just Serbia. We can point to Croatia, Romania, Hungary, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia, and yes even Albania for clear examples of this. To say that one ethnic group has a deeper level of intolerance than others is just plain stupid. The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity, and how can we stop the back-and-forth cycle between competing exclusionary narratives between social and ethnic groups that feed off of each other? That is the real question. If it takes something as horrible as the murder or Mr. Taton to get a nation to say "Dosta", it's a Pyrrhic victory.
But yes, as you say, "insulting whole peoples" doesn't produce anything for either side of this daily back and forth cyber war we seem to have created here.
PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
robert-o
(roberto, 30 September 2009 21:52)
And I hope that you will be the conductor of this train trying to be less one sided and "professorial"
Even in this very comment, where you try once more to lecture us, you do not fail to blame a complete nation with these words: "now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians"
So if I understand well this tragic event allows you to make such a judgement.
Don't you think that the last 8 years Serbia has done more than any other surrounding coutry to clean their heavy past, don't you think that the Serbian people deserve more than being blame all the time for whatever happend.
I have been travelling the entire region for the last 6 years and Serbia remains the safest and most warmest welcoming place.
These tragic events against foreigners are the first am hearing since I started to travel here.
I don't have to lecture you abt what is happening in the world and how much violence is unfortunately going on.
Where ever it is, violence should be harsly condemned, but this certainly remains a dream of mine, starting with my own country!
Before preaching as usual about tolarence try to compare the crime rate between Belgrade and your beloved Frisco or just for the sake of convinience the nearby East Palo Alto.Perhaps you know that for example the homicide rate in both albania and USA is 4 times higher than than in Serbia.So first solve the problems at your home before giving moral lessons to others.Well I know it is difficult if someone happens to live in SF the world capitol of hypocrisy.
I can see, Mike, that since my comments are less frequent, you are turning your attentions on another poster, this time Kosovo/a usa. and i do not appreciate it. he is entitled to his opinions, you to yours, mine to mine.
as for who is a "nationalist," i would characterize many here as nationalist, some to the extreme. they are also entitled to their opinions, but some of them go out of their way to spread hate and intolerance. for months i have been critical of the use of such perjoratives as "albins", "albos" and many related such obvious insults. they are ugly, they are nasty, they spread and reinforce hate. i have never seen you address such posters; if anything the reverse.
yes there is also anger and hatred sometimes directed against "the serbs." i have critisized this on a number of occasions; i don't like it, it can spread hatred and intolerance, and i don't find it useful. i always try to draw a line btwn nationalists, haters, and a whole people, and i think we should all try to avoid generalizations about "the anybodies."
now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media. at the same time we are seeing a reaction to this "nationalistic" violence: Enough is Enough! call a spade a spade, and be done with it -- we shall no longer abide the haters, or allow them to define us, to dictate our thoughts, our feelings and our policies.
and that is something that many of us applaud: to take charge of your lives, your communities, to take power away from the demagogues and hooligans, to bring in their stead some sort of humanistic values. that is not a cliche, it means how we deal with one another, how we deal w/foreigners, how we deal with those w/whom we disagree, how we deal with those to whom we supposedly hold "ancient animosities."
instead of insulting whole peoples or promoting personal attacks here, we need to find better ways. if there can be a PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
I was in beograd when this happened and i am going back in a couple of days without the least bit of fear. I live in America and statistically speaking, I am much, much safer in beograd than any American city of similar size. Violence in America is a much bigger problem in Serbia than the US. If the child's parent are correct, maybe the US should aspire to join the EU for the safety and benefit of American citizens. Having written that, i have no problem with the parent's statements and, in fact, what they are asking for is very reasonable and foregiving. If it had been my child killed by hooligans, i would want, at the very least, life in prison for those responsible for murder.
kosova-usa, what's your point? these people didn't say anything anti-serbian. you, on the other hand are doing that constantly.
zoran, this act of violence has political background and it is in the right-wing extremist groups who are against the eu. it doesn't mean everyone who is against the eu is an extremist or even right-wing. however, it is a result of politics of certain groups who profit from promoting nationalism and xenophobia (as well as homophobia, it seems). saying all this is not propaganda anymore than saying that some albanians engage in organised crime - it doesn't mean that all albanians are criminals, it just means that a problem exists and it needs to be addressed.
"Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
(Kosova-USA"
-- While I have already concluded that you provide no useful comments to this site other than to spew your own shortsighted self-serving interests, and that writing to you is a waste of time, I believe the reason why people jumped on you yesterday is because rather than expressing sorrow for the death of this man, you sought to score political points for your own self-satisfaction. The parents lost a child and are rightfully angry. You are simply a crude Albanian nationalist who used another opportunity to score a point that even other Albanians derided you for.
This, coupled with your admitted ignorance of Serbia, as well as you never having been there, only testifies to your limited knowledge of a place you claim to know better than most others. Foreigners will continue to visit Serbia and Belgrade, just as foreigners continue to visit Germany, England, France, Austria, Turkey, Croatia, and the United States, despite the attacks on foreigners and extremist groups in all of them. If you honestly think the face of Serbia is the face of those who attacked Mr. Taton, you're deliberately overlooking the tremendous outpouring of grief and anger in Belgrade and on this site.
You've already laid out your insensitivities for many to see. Don't compound it by trying to pass yourself off as an unjustly-attacked victim.
His parents want justice? Yes, so do thousands of Serb parents who lost their sons and daughters thanks to your bombs and support of uck terrorists back in 99. Still to this day france is one of the biggest supporters of Kosovo independece (theft of Serbia's territory). Has anyone in france been brought to justice for the war crimes?
"Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign?"
They choose to!
Their son just died in a foreign land were he was attacked by "good family" 'kids'. She can say what ever she wants! You cant censor it!
Witch comes down to YOUR propaganda,,,
god.. I feel so sorry for his parents.. if it were my son I would want death for these boys..but look at what they say only 20 years jail time for kids under 20..and 40 years over the age of 20 Now see. Thats says alot about his Family and what kind of parents he had..how are they even able to have any kind of reason to in my opinion to bestow such compassion.. because as far as I am concerned they should loose there freedom indefinitely. Awful... Awful He must have been a good son. And this act I will never forget this. .I am beyond myself..huh...
“That parade was cancelled for fear that it would spiral out of control. And these savages, who have been politically manipulated by extremists who oppose Serbia’s accession to the European Union, went to find other victims—foreigners, first and foremost”
--
Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign? People are more than entitled to be anti-EU without being associated to thugs.
Personally, I think Belgrade's police and police minister have a lot to answer here. They have allowed violence to go unpunished for a long time and this has only made the situation worse. It seems holding opposition protests or peaceful marches in recent times are spoilt by some hooligans where the police a reluctant to intervene. Last year the police even killed a protestor during an opposition rally while allowing hooligans to cause destruction.
Stop with the politics and deal with the crime. This is an issue that needs addressing and not spun into political point scoring. It should be fairly obvious who is trying to gain points here - all in bad taste.
Here you have it ladies and gents.
Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
its awful that you cant even sit in a cafe without being attacked GOD! .. Yes these acts happen but just because it happens everywhere does not mean people can be upset over it! and lets not forget Serbia can use alot of change. And this is your country stop acting like this is whatever! the community is grieving. You concerned about people thinking bad about your country? how selfish are you some people? shall you pay this price with your niece, nephew or son. what a tragic end to a young life. Just disgusting! Nationalism.. Huh what place does that have in this situation...cant understand this thinking at all. Brice had a life! I am so sorry because I am upset and i am sad...what a tragedy..
“That parade was cancelled for fear that it would spiral out of control. And these savages, who have been politically manipulated by extremists who oppose Serbia’s accession to the European Union, went to find other victims—foreigners, first and foremost”
--
Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign? People are more than entitled to be anti-EU without being associated to thugs.
Personally, I think Belgrade's police and police minister have a lot to answer here. They have allowed violence to go unpunished for a long time and this has only made the situation worse. It seems holding opposition protests or peaceful marches in recent times are spoilt by some hooligans where the police a reluctant to intervene. Last year the police even killed a protestor during an opposition rally while allowing hooligans to cause destruction.
Stop with the politics and deal with the crime. This is an issue that needs addressing and not spun into political point scoring. It should be fairly obvious who is trying to gain points here - all in bad taste.
"Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
(Kosova-USA"
-- While I have already concluded that you provide no useful comments to this site other than to spew your own shortsighted self-serving interests, and that writing to you is a waste of time, I believe the reason why people jumped on you yesterday is because rather than expressing sorrow for the death of this man, you sought to score political points for your own self-satisfaction. The parents lost a child and are rightfully angry. You are simply a crude Albanian nationalist who used another opportunity to score a point that even other Albanians derided you for.
This, coupled with your admitted ignorance of Serbia, as well as you never having been there, only testifies to your limited knowledge of a place you claim to know better than most others. Foreigners will continue to visit Serbia and Belgrade, just as foreigners continue to visit Germany, England, France, Austria, Turkey, Croatia, and the United States, despite the attacks on foreigners and extremist groups in all of them. If you honestly think the face of Serbia is the face of those who attacked Mr. Taton, you're deliberately overlooking the tremendous outpouring of grief and anger in Belgrade and on this site.
You've already laid out your insensitivities for many to see. Don't compound it by trying to pass yourself off as an unjustly-attacked victim.
Here you have it ladies and gents.
Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
I was in beograd when this happened and i am going back in a couple of days without the least bit of fear. I live in America and statistically speaking, I am much, much safer in beograd than any American city of similar size. Violence in America is a much bigger problem in Serbia than the US. If the child's parent are correct, maybe the US should aspire to join the EU for the safety and benefit of American citizens. Having written that, i have no problem with the parent's statements and, in fact, what they are asking for is very reasonable and foregiving. If it had been my child killed by hooligans, i would want, at the very least, life in prison for those responsible for murder.
I can see, Mike, that since my comments are less frequent, you are turning your attentions on another poster, this time Kosovo/a usa. and i do not appreciate it. he is entitled to his opinions, you to yours, mine to mine.
as for who is a "nationalist," i would characterize many here as nationalist, some to the extreme. they are also entitled to their opinions, but some of them go out of their way to spread hate and intolerance. for months i have been critical of the use of such perjoratives as "albins", "albos" and many related such obvious insults. they are ugly, they are nasty, they spread and reinforce hate. i have never seen you address such posters; if anything the reverse.
yes there is also anger and hatred sometimes directed against "the serbs." i have critisized this on a number of occasions; i don't like it, it can spread hatred and intolerance, and i don't find it useful. i always try to draw a line btwn nationalists, haters, and a whole people, and i think we should all try to avoid generalizations about "the anybodies."
now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media. at the same time we are seeing a reaction to this "nationalistic" violence: Enough is Enough! call a spade a spade, and be done with it -- we shall no longer abide the haters, or allow them to define us, to dictate our thoughts, our feelings and our policies.
and that is something that many of us applaud: to take charge of your lives, your communities, to take power away from the demagogues and hooligans, to bring in their stead some sort of humanistic values. that is not a cliche, it means how we deal with one another, how we deal w/foreigners, how we deal with those w/whom we disagree, how we deal with those to whom we supposedly hold "ancient animosities."
instead of insulting whole peoples or promoting personal attacks here, we need to find better ways. if there can be a PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
robert-o
(roberto, 30 September 2009 21:52)
And I hope that you will be the conductor of this train trying to be less one sided and "professorial"
Even in this very comment, where you try once more to lecture us, you do not fail to blame a complete nation with these words: "now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians"
So if I understand well this tragic event allows you to make such a judgement.
Don't you think that the last 8 years Serbia has done more than any other surrounding coutry to clean their heavy past, don't you think that the Serbian people deserve more than being blame all the time for whatever happend.
I have been travelling the entire region for the last 6 years and Serbia remains the safest and most warmest welcoming place.
These tragic events against foreigners are the first am hearing since I started to travel here.
I don't have to lecture you abt what is happening in the world and how much violence is unfortunately going on.
Where ever it is, violence should be harsly condemned, but this certainly remains a dream of mine, starting with my own country!
"Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign?"
They choose to!
Their son just died in a foreign land were he was attacked by "good family" 'kids'. She can say what ever she wants! You cant censor it!
Witch comes down to YOUR propaganda,,,
Actually, it's not the dearth of your comments that have, as you claim, forced me to look elsewhere (again, you're no martyr), but rather the acceptance that beneath the selectiveness of your opinions and social evaluations that I often find hard to take as genuine, you and I see eye to eye on principles of democracy, civil society, and shared communities.
Yes, you're absolutely right there are "nationalists" on both sides that use incredibly vitriolic words to express their opinions. And yes, there are plenty of "Kosova-USA's" (or should I write Kosovo-USSR's) in the pro-Serbian camp. But throwing around insults and sweeping stereotypes to score points gets us nowhere except reinforcing our own entrenched beliefs and historical memories, and furthers the determination never to cooperate with the other side.
In regards to your "esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media" comment, I think that this is certainly not endemic to just Serbia. We can point to Croatia, Romania, Hungary, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia, and yes even Albania for clear examples of this. To say that one ethnic group has a deeper level of intolerance than others is just plain stupid. The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity, and how can we stop the back-and-forth cycle between competing exclusionary narratives between social and ethnic groups that feed off of each other? That is the real question. If it takes something as horrible as the murder or Mr. Taton to get a nation to say "Dosta", it's a Pyrrhic victory.
But yes, as you say, "insulting whole peoples" doesn't produce anything for either side of this daily back and forth cyber war we seem to have created here.
His parents want justice? Yes, so do thousands of Serb parents who lost their sons and daughters thanks to your bombs and support of uck terrorists back in 99. Still to this day france is one of the biggest supporters of Kosovo independece (theft of Serbia's territory). Has anyone in france been brought to justice for the war crimes?
god.. I feel so sorry for his parents.. if it were my son I would want death for these boys..but look at what they say only 20 years jail time for kids under 20..and 40 years over the age of 20 Now see. Thats says alot about his Family and what kind of parents he had..how are they even able to have any kind of reason to in my opinion to bestow such compassion.. because as far as I am concerned they should loose there freedom indefinitely. Awful... Awful He must have been a good son. And this act I will never forget this. .I am beyond myself..huh...
its awful that you cant even sit in a cafe without being attacked GOD! .. Yes these acts happen but just because it happens everywhere does not mean people can be upset over it! and lets not forget Serbia can use alot of change. And this is your country stop acting like this is whatever! the community is grieving. You concerned about people thinking bad about your country? how selfish are you some people? shall you pay this price with your niece, nephew or son. what a tragic end to a young life. Just disgusting! Nationalism.. Huh what place does that have in this situation...cant understand this thinking at all. Brice had a life! I am so sorry because I am upset and i am sad...what a tragedy..
Before preaching as usual about tolarence try to compare the crime rate between Belgrade and your beloved Frisco or just for the sake of convinience the nearby East Palo Alto.Perhaps you know that for example the homicide rate in both albania and USA is 4 times higher than than in Serbia.So first solve the problems at your home before giving moral lessons to others.Well I know it is difficult if someone happens to live in SF the world capitol of hypocrisy.
I deplore the fact that an innocent man, regardless of nationality, has lost his life in such a needless and violent attack. I absolutely deplore the actions of the perpetrators of this crime and as such would agree that they receive the highest possible sentence. If, as suggested, this was acted out by people who were politically motivated then I would hope that the watching world will rally against the violent extremists and show added support for those who oppose them. As for those posters who are trying to turn this into a Serb hating propoganda event, shame on you. All clear thinking, normal individuals will see this for what it is, an horrific attack that deserves the strongest justice. I have visited Belgrade on a number of occasions and been made to feel incredibly welcome and I will not hesitate to visit Belgrade again. One incident cannot, however sad, be used to tarnish the good nature of the overwhelming vast majority of law abiding and very friendly Serbs in Belgrade. I would hope that most would want to show those few who seek to make this a nationalistic issue that they cannot influence people in this way. Travel to Belgrade and see for yourselves what a welcoming city it really is.
kosova-usa, what's your point? these people didn't say anything anti-serbian. you, on the other hand are doing that constantly.
zoran, this act of violence has political background and it is in the right-wing extremist groups who are against the eu. it doesn't mean everyone who is against the eu is an extremist or even right-wing. however, it is a result of politics of certain groups who profit from promoting nationalism and xenophobia (as well as homophobia, it seems). saying all this is not propaganda anymore than saying that some albanians engage in organised crime - it doesn't mean that all albanians are criminals, it just means that a problem exists and it needs to be addressed.
Kosova-USA, Mr and Mrs Taton have every right to comment as theyhave lost their son. You, on the other hand, are a nationalist troublemaker with nothing to contribute except racist bile.
Mike -- we are not on opposite sides. we need to work harder -- all of us -- to maneuver the level of discourse somewhere into a normal and civilized range. we need to explore some mutual respect, and learn to listen to both the criticisms and very real pain that different people bring to this forum.
also, if we have integrity, we need to name and condemn hate, trash-talk and violence on all sides. it is a cop-out to say: "this isn't california, this isn't the US, we say whatever we want." words can hold a great deal of power, esp.ly abusive ones.
why not take this tragic opportunity, and try to find some good, from evil.
The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity,
Zoran answered:Stop with the politics and deal with the crime:
this is the first and absolutly necessary step.
and i should write deal with the crimeS...
You can not create trust and confidence if crime is not condamned,and if the autor of these crimes are free.
As long as you-or your institutions,protect criminals,you can not demobilize the nationalist party on the other side and you can not expect that the other side will trust you.
Why was, and is the serbian police so tolerant with these grups is an other question that zoran asked,and that many of us ask too.Are they in your police so unprofessionel? i do know that no,so why?
Just political game here to gain point among their population,among bruxelles?
These are the questions that serbian civil society has to deal with.To whom do these grups bring benefits,to be so tolerated?
Here you have it ladies and gents.
Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
"Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign?"
They choose to!
Their son just died in a foreign land were he was attacked by "good family" 'kids'. She can say what ever she wants! You cant censor it!
Witch comes down to YOUR propaganda,,,
His parents want justice? Yes, so do thousands of Serb parents who lost their sons and daughters thanks to your bombs and support of uck terrorists back in 99. Still to this day france is one of the biggest supporters of Kosovo independece (theft of Serbia's territory). Has anyone in france been brought to justice for the war crimes?
I can see, Mike, that since my comments are less frequent, you are turning your attentions on another poster, this time Kosovo/a usa. and i do not appreciate it. he is entitled to his opinions, you to yours, mine to mine.
as for who is a "nationalist," i would characterize many here as nationalist, some to the extreme. they are also entitled to their opinions, but some of them go out of their way to spread hate and intolerance. for months i have been critical of the use of such perjoratives as "albins", "albos" and many related such obvious insults. they are ugly, they are nasty, they spread and reinforce hate. i have never seen you address such posters; if anything the reverse.
yes there is also anger and hatred sometimes directed against "the serbs." i have critisized this on a number of occasions; i don't like it, it can spread hatred and intolerance, and i don't find it useful. i always try to draw a line btwn nationalists, haters, and a whole people, and i think we should all try to avoid generalizations about "the anybodies."
now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media. at the same time we are seeing a reaction to this "nationalistic" violence: Enough is Enough! call a spade a spade, and be done with it -- we shall no longer abide the haters, or allow them to define us, to dictate our thoughts, our feelings and our policies.
and that is something that many of us applaud: to take charge of your lives, your communities, to take power away from the demagogues and hooligans, to bring in their stead some sort of humanistic values. that is not a cliche, it means how we deal with one another, how we deal w/foreigners, how we deal with those w/whom we disagree, how we deal with those to whom we supposedly hold "ancient animosities."
instead of insulting whole peoples or promoting personal attacks here, we need to find better ways. if there can be a PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
god.. I feel so sorry for his parents.. if it were my son I would want death for these boys..but look at what they say only 20 years jail time for kids under 20..and 40 years over the age of 20 Now see. Thats says alot about his Family and what kind of parents he had..how are they even able to have any kind of reason to in my opinion to bestow such compassion.. because as far as I am concerned they should loose there freedom indefinitely. Awful... Awful He must have been a good son. And this act I will never forget this. .I am beyond myself..huh...
its awful that you cant even sit in a cafe without being attacked GOD! .. Yes these acts happen but just because it happens everywhere does not mean people can be upset over it! and lets not forget Serbia can use alot of change. And this is your country stop acting like this is whatever! the community is grieving. You concerned about people thinking bad about your country? how selfish are you some people? shall you pay this price with your niece, nephew or son. what a tragic end to a young life. Just disgusting! Nationalism.. Huh what place does that have in this situation...cant understand this thinking at all. Brice had a life! I am so sorry because I am upset and i am sad...what a tragedy..
"Yesterday I wrote a coment that future foreign visitors will think twice before viting Belgrade, and several poster were up in arms and even calling on b92 editor to remove my coment. I would like to see the same poster jumping on these parent that lost their loved one for no reason at all. Its a shame.
(Kosova-USA"
-- While I have already concluded that you provide no useful comments to this site other than to spew your own shortsighted self-serving interests, and that writing to you is a waste of time, I believe the reason why people jumped on you yesterday is because rather than expressing sorrow for the death of this man, you sought to score political points for your own self-satisfaction. The parents lost a child and are rightfully angry. You are simply a crude Albanian nationalist who used another opportunity to score a point that even other Albanians derided you for.
This, coupled with your admitted ignorance of Serbia, as well as you never having been there, only testifies to your limited knowledge of a place you claim to know better than most others. Foreigners will continue to visit Serbia and Belgrade, just as foreigners continue to visit Germany, England, France, Austria, Turkey, Croatia, and the United States, despite the attacks on foreigners and extremist groups in all of them. If you honestly think the face of Serbia is the face of those who attacked Mr. Taton, you're deliberately overlooking the tremendous outpouring of grief and anger in Belgrade and on this site.
You've already laid out your insensitivities for many to see. Don't compound it by trying to pass yourself off as an unjustly-attacked victim.
“That parade was cancelled for fear that it would spiral out of control. And these savages, who have been politically manipulated by extremists who oppose Serbia’s accession to the European Union, went to find other victims—foreigners, first and foremost”
--
Why can't the parents be allowed to pay their last respects in peace rather than be drawn into a propaganda campaign? People are more than entitled to be anti-EU without being associated to thugs.
Personally, I think Belgrade's police and police minister have a lot to answer here. They have allowed violence to go unpunished for a long time and this has only made the situation worse. It seems holding opposition protests or peaceful marches in recent times are spoilt by some hooligans where the police a reluctant to intervene. Last year the police even killed a protestor during an opposition rally while allowing hooligans to cause destruction.
Stop with the politics and deal with the crime. This is an issue that needs addressing and not spun into political point scoring. It should be fairly obvious who is trying to gain points here - all in bad taste.
Before preaching as usual about tolarence try to compare the crime rate between Belgrade and your beloved Frisco or just for the sake of convinience the nearby East Palo Alto.Perhaps you know that for example the homicide rate in both albania and USA is 4 times higher than than in Serbia.So first solve the problems at your home before giving moral lessons to others.Well I know it is difficult if someone happens to live in SF the world capitol of hypocrisy.
PEACE march in Belgrade, there can be a peace train coming through the b92 station as well.
robert-o
(roberto, 30 September 2009 21:52)
And I hope that you will be the conductor of this train trying to be less one sided and "professorial"
Even in this very comment, where you try once more to lecture us, you do not fail to blame a complete nation with these words: "now, esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians"
So if I understand well this tragic event allows you to make such a judgement.
Don't you think that the last 8 years Serbia has done more than any other surrounding coutry to clean their heavy past, don't you think that the Serbian people deserve more than being blame all the time for whatever happend.
I have been travelling the entire region for the last 6 years and Serbia remains the safest and most warmest welcoming place.
These tragic events against foreigners are the first am hearing since I started to travel here.
I don't have to lecture you abt what is happening in the world and how much violence is unfortunately going on.
Where ever it is, violence should be harsly condemned, but this certainly remains a dream of mine, starting with my own country!
Mike -- we are not on opposite sides. we need to work harder -- all of us -- to maneuver the level of discourse somewhere into a normal and civilized range. we need to explore some mutual respect, and learn to listen to both the criticisms and very real pain that different people bring to this forum.
also, if we have integrity, we need to name and condemn hate, trash-talk and violence on all sides. it is a cop-out to say: "this isn't california, this isn't the US, we say whatever we want." words can hold a great deal of power, esp.ly abusive ones.
why not take this tragic opportunity, and try to find some good, from evil.
I was in beograd when this happened and i am going back in a couple of days without the least bit of fear. I live in America and statistically speaking, I am much, much safer in beograd than any American city of similar size. Violence in America is a much bigger problem in Serbia than the US. If the child's parent are correct, maybe the US should aspire to join the EU for the safety and benefit of American citizens. Having written that, i have no problem with the parent's statements and, in fact, what they are asking for is very reasonable and foregiving. If it had been my child killed by hooligans, i would want, at the very least, life in prison for those responsible for murder.
Actually, it's not the dearth of your comments that have, as you claim, forced me to look elsewhere (again, you're no martyr), but rather the acceptance that beneath the selectiveness of your opinions and social evaluations that I often find hard to take as genuine, you and I see eye to eye on principles of democracy, civil society, and shared communities.
Yes, you're absolutely right there are "nationalists" on both sides that use incredibly vitriolic words to express their opinions. And yes, there are plenty of "Kosova-USA's" (or should I write Kosovo-USSR's) in the pro-Serbian camp. But throwing around insults and sweeping stereotypes to score points gets us nowhere except reinforcing our own entrenched beliefs and historical memories, and furthers the determination never to cooperate with the other side.
In regards to your "esply in belgrade, we are seeing the results of years of hate and intolerance, often promoted by the leading institutions and politicians, and media" comment, I think that this is certainly not endemic to just Serbia. We can point to Croatia, Romania, Hungary, Greece, Turkey, Bosnia, and yes even Albania for clear examples of this. To say that one ethnic group has a deeper level of intolerance than others is just plain stupid. The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity, and how can we stop the back-and-forth cycle between competing exclusionary narratives between social and ethnic groups that feed off of each other? That is the real question. If it takes something as horrible as the murder or Mr. Taton to get a nation to say "Dosta", it's a Pyrrhic victory.
But yes, as you say, "insulting whole peoples" doesn't produce anything for either side of this daily back and forth cyber war we seem to have created here.
Kosova-USA, Mr and Mrs Taton have every right to comment as theyhave lost their son. You, on the other hand, are a nationalist troublemaker with nothing to contribute except racist bile.
The question that we should be asking therefore is what are the necessary steps that can be done in demobilizing such ethnocentric and exclusionary variants of collective identity,
Zoran answered:Stop with the politics and deal with the crime:
this is the first and absolutly necessary step.
and i should write deal with the crimeS...
You can not create trust and confidence if crime is not condamned,and if the autor of these crimes are free.
As long as you-or your institutions,protect criminals,you can not demobilize the nationalist party on the other side and you can not expect that the other side will trust you.
Why was, and is the serbian police so tolerant with these grups is an other question that zoran asked,and that many of us ask too.Are they in your police so unprofessionel? i do know that no,so why?
Just political game here to gain point among their population,among bruxelles?
These are the questions that serbian civil society has to deal with.To whom do these grups bring benefits,to be so tolerated?
kosova-usa, what's your point? these people didn't say anything anti-serbian. you, on the other hand are doing that constantly.
zoran, this act of violence has political background and it is in the right-wing extremist groups who are against the eu. it doesn't mean everyone who is against the eu is an extremist or even right-wing. however, it is a result of politics of certain groups who profit from promoting nationalism and xenophobia (as well as homophobia, it seems). saying all this is not propaganda anymore than saying that some albanians engage in organised crime - it doesn't mean that all albanians are criminals, it just means that a problem exists and it needs to be addressed.
I deplore the fact that an innocent man, regardless of nationality, has lost his life in such a needless and violent attack. I absolutely deplore the actions of the perpetrators of this crime and as such would agree that they receive the highest possible sentence. If, as suggested, this was acted out by people who were politically motivated then I would hope that the watching world will rally against the violent extremists and show added support for those who oppose them. As for those posters who are trying to turn this into a Serb hating propoganda event, shame on you. All clear thinking, normal individuals will see this for what it is, an horrific attack that deserves the strongest justice. I have visited Belgrade on a number of occasions and been made to feel incredibly welcome and I will not hesitate to visit Belgrade again. One incident cannot, however sad, be used to tarnish the good nature of the overwhelming vast majority of law abiding and very friendly Serbs in Belgrade. I would hope that most would want to show those few who seek to make this a nationalistic issue that they cannot influence people in this way. Travel to Belgrade and see for yourselves what a welcoming city it really is.
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