U.S. expert: No such thing as civilian target

This guy is a creep, but he's helping us understand what is considered illegal and legal in terms of human rights. Interesting, though, that people fleeing is not considered illegal by the US military official. Does that mean that when Albanians left Kosovo it wasn't illegal either? You cannot have it both ways. I think we now know that according to the US officials that what's legal and illegal depends upon their interests. If it's in their interest, it's not illegal. If it's not in their interest, it's illegal. That's how the world works.

"He likened the August 1995 Croatian military onslaught against ethnic Serb areas, known as Operation Storm, to the 1999 NATO attacks on Serbia, saying that orders to shell targets in the Krajina towns of Knin, Obrovac, Gračac and Drvar were comparable to NATO's attacks, carried out with hundreds of cruise missiles and bombs, against Belgrade."


At last Americans said the truth - in 1999 they committed their crime in the Ustasha style. What we can see is that fascism has been revived, and not just at the level of Croatia, but at the international level. I'm afraid, we somehow missed the moment when we had had to begin to fight neo-Nazis. The same mistake as in 1930s...

Wow, I mean, isn't corn meant to be defending gotovina? It seems as though this guy is an absolute moron, either that or he has shown up to the trial blind drunk.



The Hague prosecution claims that Gotovina should not have allowed artillery to fire on urban areas, and that the dead civilians are proof of the crime and of the joint criminal enterprise, media in Zagreb, Croatia, are reporting. (DING DING DING, about time the hague defined something)

Corn responded to this by saying: "Collateral victims are not prohibited nor are they a crime, unfortunately they are common in war."


Civilian deaths are always a crime. I don't see how they can just level a whole area and then expect any civilian casualties to be nothing more than 'unfortunate collateral'. Thats just a lazy, cheap, dim-witted excuse for trying to save time by demolishing the area with bombs rather than sending people in. Bombs take seconds, people take days.


gotovina je gotov

So then according to Corn the Croats should stop complaining about Vukovar and Dubrovnik.

I tend to agree that civilian casualties cannot be avoided, especially when an urban population center needs to be captured. But why is it perfectly okay for one side to generate "collateral victims" while for the other side it is considered a heinous crime?

How nice!

If they dont nail Gotovina, I dont see how they could nail Karadzic. Ethnic cleansing happened everywhere on all sides but the problem is that The Hague issues Serbs 2 to 3 times longer sentences than others for the same crimes.

Awesome. The next time someone complains about Vukovar, Sarajevo, or hell even 9/11, we can now apply the logic of this Instant Oatmeal Colonel saying it was all part of the greater war's collateral damage.

Aleks,

I read your links and this Geoffrey Corn is really a sweet guy. He is now very high on my list of the people (like Bush, Cheney, etc) on whom I would experiment some "waterboarding".

Didn't the Americans bomb Serbia because the Serbian army had allegedly also killed civilian Albanians in their war agains UCK? Funny how it's ok when the Americans and their allies target civilians but horribly wrong when someone else does it. No wonder America is despised all over the world.

And all this time the West has been going on about Srebrenica being a genocide. Now we know that they were casualties resulting from actions against the Bosniak military.

Thanks US guy for clearing that up, and I hope you continue taking out those military targets in Afghanistan! Don't worry too much about those Afghan civilians that are getting killed in those military operations, I am sure their families will understand.

Geoffrey Corn, described by news agencies as "a U.S. colonel", testified on behalf of the former Croatian general, accused of war crimes against Serb civilians, to say that "targets are always military".

For once I find myself agreeing with a US officer and remind him of the train, the hospital and the Chinese Embassy in Belgradeamoungst others. Maybe he should explain his thoughts to those who were responsible for those "accidents"

This Colonel should be put on trial aswell, sound like it was his idea the way he tries to rationalize it.

Good. Based on the logic of his testimony, whatever was going on in Kosovo (like the famous exodus of thousands of Albanians and the other collaterals was neither criminal nor illegal.Thus, criminal was NATO bombing of all targets in Serbia and illegal was declaration of "Kosova" independence.

Aleks,

Nice research.

RTS was first accused of being a propaganda mouth piece for Milosevic and that was the original justification for the bombing. Once government officials realized that wasn’t a proper justification, they changed their story that the RTS building was being used by the military because it had some transmitters on the roof that could be used for communication.

Why they had to blow up the whole building instead of using something smaller or an EMP or something is beyond me of course.

A friend of mine is a reporter for them and was actually in the building when it was hit.

A bit more on Corn via a slightly more detailed resume of his [my comments]: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2008/08/geoffrey-s-corn.html

"His career included service as a tactical intelligence officer in Panama [the US killed thousands of civilians in this invasion and continues to cover up the real numbers - search for the 'Panama Deception', the documentary film]...Professor Corn routinely provides expert assistance to military, government, and non-governmental agencies. He is a contributor to the legal affairs website Jurist, and to the foreign affairs and national security daily World Politics Watch".

So in effect, his job is as a back stop against accusations of crimes against humanity and war crimes leveled at US forces and making legal excuses as to why the US and friends are 'special' under international law and are allowed to kill civilians deliberately.

As we see in Afghanistan and elsewhere, US soldiers lives are far more precious than those of civilians.

I just can't believe what I read and these people are walking free and more over defending war crimes!!
The beautiful democracy made in US, disgusting!

Professor Geoffrey S. Corn, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army, Retired


I'm not surprised that Gotovina has such big support from the USA as the USA is also in the dock. The ICTY has already prosecuted individuals and others for not using their influence to stop atrocities happening, regardless of whether they knew about them or not.

This is what the US and most of the western european countries are guilty of whilst supporting the Croatian ethnic cleansing of serbs in 1995.

If Gotovina goes down, then the US is open to prosecution, ceratainly not in the ICTY (because it cunningly only deals with the territories and peoples of the ex SFRY), but can be brought before the International Criminal Court.

I do wonder what is the position of Corn over the bombing of RTB? Considering the high esteem the US seems to hold for journalists around the world, are those at RTB 'military' targets?

People like this make me squirm.

His representation here on behalf of Gotivina flies in the face of his previous work. See his bio here: http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/author.aspx?id=63

Biography of writings: http://www.stcl.edu/faculty_pages/facbiblo.htm#corn

He's used the same arguments before and it has been thrown out by Judges in the ICTR (Rwanda) case of Prosper Mugiraneza, when the prosecution rejected the Defense using Corn's "Report". The judges ruling throwing out his expert report:

"FOR THESE REASONS, THE CHAMBER
GRANTS the Prosecutor’s Motion; and
DIRECTS the Defence for Prosper Mugiraneza to remove Professor Corn from its Third
Amended Witness List, as filed before this Chamber on 13 May 2008."

For example: "10.
With respect to the second general area, Professor Corn concludes that where the
United States National Security Agency invokes a “national security” exception when
requested to provide access to a document, this strongly suggests that such a document
exists and is in the Agency’s possession.16"

So, the effective US representative has a 'national security' right to hide documents from the court. In the Karadzic case, NATO the US and other countries say that documents 'don't exist' on their arms supplies and thus participation in the civil war.

Read it here on Google docs: http://www.google.com/url?url=http://docs.google.com/gview%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache:eGW47EHmBkYJ:www.ictr.org/ENGLISH/cases/Bizimungu/decisions/080516.pdf%2Bcolonel%2Bgeoffry%2Bcorn%26hl%3Den&rct=j&ei=gw2tSsWqFZTajQedpI39Bw&sa=X&oi=gview&resnum=6&ct=view&q=colonel+geoffry+corn&usg=AFQjCNGVyKjScrEXaLCxGRC8m5YZvkiaJw

PDF: www.ictr.org/ENGLISH/cases/Bizimungu/decisions/080516.pdf


If the ICTY doesn't throw him and his expertise out, then it really does show the power of the US and the weakness of the ICTY. We'll see.

What a sweetie.

Well now I will go to street start shouting get out of my way hit all those who do not obey me and call it a collateral demage.

Very interesting... So - why similar Milosević military antiterrorist action in Kosovo in 1998-99 was cause for military intervention against Yugoslavia??

of course, of course ..... there's no such thing as civilian targets ..... there's just "collateral damage".

"Awesome. The next time someone complains about Vukovar, Sarajevo, or hell even 9/11, we can now apply the logic of this Instant Oatmeal Colonel saying it was all part of the greater war's collateral damage.
(Mike, 13 September 2009 20:21) "

Goes further than that. If ICTY actually accepts this clown's 'expert' testimony, then also lays the foundations for appeals by anyone already convicted under similar circumstances.

Get the feeling they won't want to open that particular can of worms.. but then again, with this joke of a court, who knows.

And if nothing else Corn's words give a crystal clear insight into the military 'mindset'.

BH_NYC:
> According to some 'expert' comments here, collateral damage doesn't exist. Or, maybe it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive.

I think you'll find that what most reasonable people find offensive here is the whole concept of the term 'collateral damage'.

In reality, it is nothing less than state sanctioned 'manslaughter'.

And looking over all the comments above, I cannot see one that claims 'it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive'.

That exclusivity appears to exist only in your own mind.

> Luckily these things are left up to international courts to decide as supposed to the likes of Mike and ataman.

In a word, crap. If these things really were up to 'international courts', most of the US military leadership would be on trial. And as regards 'Mike & ataman', if you cannot recognise satire, then that is your problem.

According to some 'expert' comments here, collateral damage doesn't exist. Or, maybe it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive. Luckily these things are left up to international courts to decide as supposed to the likes of Mike and ataman.

According to some 'expert' comments here, collateral damage doesn't exist. Or, maybe it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive. Luckily these things are left up to international courts to decide as supposed to the likes of Mike and ataman.

If they dont nail Gotovina, I dont see how they could nail Karadzic. Ethnic cleansing happened everywhere on all sides but the problem is that The Hague issues Serbs 2 to 3 times longer sentences than others for the same crimes.

And all this time the West has been going on about Srebrenica being a genocide. Now we know that they were casualties resulting from actions against the Bosniak military.

Thanks US guy for clearing that up, and I hope you continue taking out those military targets in Afghanistan! Don't worry too much about those Afghan civilians that are getting killed in those military operations, I am sure their families will understand.

Wow, I mean, isn't corn meant to be defending gotovina? It seems as though this guy is an absolute moron, either that or he has shown up to the trial blind drunk.



The Hague prosecution claims that Gotovina should not have allowed artillery to fire on urban areas, and that the dead civilians are proof of the crime and of the joint criminal enterprise, media in Zagreb, Croatia, are reporting. (DING DING DING, about time the hague defined something)

Corn responded to this by saying: "Collateral victims are not prohibited nor are they a crime, unfortunately they are common in war."


Civilian deaths are always a crime. I don't see how they can just level a whole area and then expect any civilian casualties to be nothing more than 'unfortunate collateral'. Thats just a lazy, cheap, dim-witted excuse for trying to save time by demolishing the area with bombs rather than sending people in. Bombs take seconds, people take days.


gotovina je gotov

Good. Based on the logic of his testimony, whatever was going on in Kosovo (like the famous exodus of thousands of Albanians and the other collaterals was neither criminal nor illegal.Thus, criminal was NATO bombing of all targets in Serbia and illegal was declaration of "Kosova" independence.

I just can't believe what I read and these people are walking free and more over defending war crimes!!
The beautiful democracy made in US, disgusting!

How nice!

This guy is a creep, but he's helping us understand what is considered illegal and legal in terms of human rights. Interesting, though, that people fleeing is not considered illegal by the US military official. Does that mean that when Albanians left Kosovo it wasn't illegal either? You cannot have it both ways. I think we now know that according to the US officials that what's legal and illegal depends upon their interests. If it's in their interest, it's not illegal. If it's not in their interest, it's illegal. That's how the world works.

"Awesome. The next time someone complains about Vukovar, Sarajevo, or hell even 9/11, we can now apply the logic of this Instant Oatmeal Colonel saying it was all part of the greater war's collateral damage.
(Mike, 13 September 2009 20:21) "

Goes further than that. If ICTY actually accepts this clown's 'expert' testimony, then also lays the foundations for appeals by anyone already convicted under similar circumstances.

Get the feeling they won't want to open that particular can of worms.. but then again, with this joke of a court, who knows.

And if nothing else Corn's words give a crystal clear insight into the military 'mindset'.

BH_NYC:
> According to some 'expert' comments here, collateral damage doesn't exist. Or, maybe it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive.

I think you'll find that what most reasonable people find offensive here is the whole concept of the term 'collateral damage'.

In reality, it is nothing less than state sanctioned 'manslaughter'.

And looking over all the comments above, I cannot see one that claims 'it only exists when the Serbs are on the offensive'.

That exclusivity appears to exist only in your own mind.

> Luckily these things are left up to international courts to decide as supposed to the likes of Mike and ataman.

In a word, crap. If these things really were up to 'international courts', most of the US military leadership would be on trial. And as regards 'Mike & ataman', if you cannot recognise satire, then that is your problem.

"He likened the August 1995 Croatian military onslaught against ethnic Serb areas, known as Operation Storm, to the 1999 NATO attacks on Serbia, saying that orders to shell targets in the Krajina towns of Knin, Obrovac, Gračac and Drvar were comparable to NATO's attacks, carried out with hundreds of cruise missiles and bombs, against Belgrade."


At last Americans said the truth - in 1999 they committed their crime in the Ustasha style. What we can see is that fascism has been revived, and not just at the level of Croatia, but at the international level. I'm afraid, we somehow missed the moment when we had had to begin to fight neo-Nazis. The same mistake as in 1930s...

Didn't the Americans bomb Serbia because the Serbian army had allegedly also killed civilian Albanians in their war agains UCK? Funny how it's ok when the Americans and their allies target civilians but horribly wrong when someone else does it. No wonder America is despised all over the world.

Geoffrey Corn, described by news agencies as "a U.S. colonel", testified on behalf of the former Croatian general, accused of war crimes against Serb civilians, to say that "targets are always military".

For once I find myself agreeing with a US officer and remind him of the train, the hospital and the Chinese Embassy in Belgradeamoungst others. Maybe he should explain his thoughts to those who were responsible for those "accidents"

What a sweetie.

This Colonel should be put on trial aswell, sound like it was his idea the way he tries to rationalize it.

So then according to Corn the Croats should stop complaining about Vukovar and Dubrovnik.

I tend to agree that civilian casualties cannot be avoided, especially when an urban population center needs to be captured. But why is it perfectly okay for one side to generate "collateral victims" while for the other side it is considered a heinous crime?

A bit more on Corn via a slightly more detailed resume of his [my comments]: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2008/08/geoffrey-s-corn.html

"His career included service as a tactical intelligence officer in Panama [the US killed thousands of civilians in this invasion and continues to cover up the real numbers - search for the 'Panama Deception', the documentary film]...Professor Corn routinely provides expert assistance to military, government, and non-governmental agencies. He is a contributor to the legal affairs website Jurist, and to the foreign affairs and national security daily World Politics Watch".

So in effect, his job is as a back stop against accusations of crimes against humanity and war crimes leveled at US forces and making legal excuses as to why the US and friends are 'special' under international law and are allowed to kill civilians deliberately.

As we see in Afghanistan and elsewhere, US soldiers lives are far more precious than those of civilians.

Aleks,

Nice research.

RTS was first accused of being a propaganda mouth piece for Milosevic and that was the original justification for the bombing. Once government officials realized that wasn’t a proper justification, they changed their story that the RTS building was being used by the military because it had some transmitters on the roof that could be used for communication.

Why they had to blow up the whole building instead of using something smaller or an EMP or something is beyond me of course.

A friend of mine is a reporter for them and was actually in the building when it was hit.

of course, of course ..... there's no such thing as civilian targets ..... there's just "collateral damage".

Professor Geoffrey S. Corn, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army, Retired


I'm not surprised that Gotovina has such big support from the USA as the USA is also in the dock. The ICTY has already prosecuted individuals and others for not using their influence to stop atrocities happening, regardless of whether they knew about them or not.

This is what the US and most of the western european countries are guilty of whilst supporting the Croatian ethnic cleansing of serbs in 1995.

If Gotovina goes down, then the US is open to prosecution, ceratainly not in the ICTY (because it cunningly only deals with the territories and peoples of the ex SFRY), but can be brought before the International Criminal Court.

I do wonder what is the position of Corn over the bombing of RTB? Considering the high esteem the US seems to hold for journalists around the world, are those at RTB 'military' targets?

People like this make me squirm.

His representation here on behalf of Gotivina flies in the face of his previous work. See his bio here: http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/author.aspx?id=63

Biography of writings: http://www.stcl.edu/faculty_pages/facbiblo.htm#corn

He's used the same arguments before and it has been thrown out by Judges in the ICTR (Rwanda) case of Prosper Mugiraneza, when the prosecution rejected the Defense using Corn's "Report". The judges ruling throwing out his expert report:

"FOR THESE REASONS, THE CHAMBER
GRANTS the Prosecutor’s Motion; and
DIRECTS the Defence for Prosper Mugiraneza to remove Professor Corn from its Third
Amended Witness List, as filed before this Chamber on 13 May 2008."

For example: "10.
With respect to the second general area, Professor Corn concludes that where the
United States National Security Agency invokes a “national security” exception when
requested to provide access to a document, this strongly suggests that such a document
exists and is in the Agency’s possession.16"

So, the effective US representative has a 'national security' right to hide documents from the court. In the Karadzic case, NATO the US and other countries say that documents 'don't exist' on their arms supplies and thus participation in the civil war.

Read it here on Google docs: http://www.google.com/url?url=http://docs.google.com/gview%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache:eGW47EHmBkYJ:www.ictr.org/ENGLISH/cases/Bizimungu/decisions/080516.pdf%2Bcolonel%2Bgeoffry%2Bcorn%26hl%3Den&rct=j&ei=gw2tSsWqFZTajQedpI39Bw&sa=X&oi=gview&resnum=6&ct=view&q=colonel+geoffry+corn&usg=AFQjCNGVyKjScrEXaLCxGRC8m5YZvkiaJw

PDF: www.ictr.org/ENGLISH/cases/Bizimungu/decisions/080516.pdf


If the ICTY doesn't throw him and his expertise out, then it really does show the power of the US and the weakness of the ICTY. We'll see.

Aleks,

I read your links and this Geoffrey Corn is really a sweet guy. He is now very high on my list of the people (like Bush, Cheney, etc) on whom I would experiment some "waterboarding".

Awesome. The next time someone complains about Vukovar, Sarajevo, or hell even 9/11, we can now apply the logic of this Instant Oatmeal Colonel saying it was all part of the greater war's collateral damage.

Well now I will go to street start shouting get out of my way hit all those who do not obey me and call it a collateral demage.

Very interesting... So - why similar Milosević military antiterrorist action in Kosovo in 1998-99 was cause for military intervention against Yugoslavia??