"Paris opposed Gotovina arrest"

French intelligence services, the DGSE, had helped the Croatian Army.
--
Lots of ugly secrets being kept in archives. The French secret service is also alleged to have been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.

The break up may have happened anyway, but a lot less violent.
(kujon, 9 September 2009 11:07)
--
Absolutely and there was an agreement very early on called the "Lisbon agreement" in Bosnia that was initially accepted by all parties until the US convinced Izetbegovic to renege. The war started and in the end they got nothing more than the original agreement accept tens of thousands of dead civilians and lots of destruction. As mentioned the West seems to make a mess of everything they touch - the question being whether it's done on purpose.

That whole period of time was a bunch of other people meddling in affairs and really messing it up at the price of thousands of innocent lives and millions of lives being changed for the worse. Peace was close numerous times, but Western countries kept pushing one side to hold out, continue the war etc.
The break up may have happened anyway, but a lot less violent.

anything to keep the blood off their hands and the mud off their faces...

As mentioned the West seems to make a mess of everything they touch - the question being whether it's done on purpose.
(Zoran, 9 September 2009 13:05)

Zoran.....I realize that you are trying to give the West the "benefit of the doubt"- but we all KNOW that the West's hands were (and are still) dirty....and that everything the West does, they do so to fit their own agenda. And it's not so much the countries of the West, but rather the "shadow governments" of these countries that are "pulling the strings" which are to blame. But, again, nothing happens "by accident"- and we all know that! Why do you think that Western countries are immune to any form of prosecution by ANY World Court? Follow the money......

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!

"Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail"

There can be no peacefull divorce unless minority rights are guaranteed. In Croatia and Bosnia they werent. Besides, Izetbegovic wanted to create an islamic republic in Bosnia. Serbs and Croats were not to found of this for obvious reasons. Not to mention K-Albanians illegal declaration of independence and theft of Serbian soil. Now, who's to blame for the wars?

Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail
(Kosova-USA, 9 September 2009 14:12)

1) "Everyone"?
2) Whom did that divorce - peaceful or not - benefit? I can't name a single side. Not even Slovenia.

But sure, the competition within and outside of EU did benefit.

By the way: the peaceful divorce of Czechoslovakia did not benefit most people either. Usually, these divorces destroy a great deal of infrastructure and make once trivial dealings more complicated.

Best example is the Austrian Empire. After it's break-up the combined industrial output of it's former member countries did not reach the level what it used to be for many decades. And at the time it did reach - none of them was competitive enough.

From socio-economical point of view both Trianon and the break-up of YU was a major disaster. I don't think the combined power of ex-YU parts will EVER reach the level what it used to be.

And some KLAnsmen who live in medieval times have to grow up, change the strategy and not look for a "sugar daddy" anymore. Ottoman Empire wasn't a good sugar daddy, neither was Italy, Dritte Reich - and now it turns, EU or USA isn't that either. These "major powers" look for own temporary benefit. Luckily for you - you belong to one. I can "best" that with the same plus one more. But others are stuck there.

Extra motivation for tonight's match .

Zoran.....I realize that you are trying to give the West the "benefit of the doubt"- but we all KNOW that the West's hands were (and are still) dirty....
(Rick, 9 September 2009 14:21)

True - with addition, that the same applies to the "East" as well. Both ladies are pregnant, but at least in the case of former YU, the one in the "West" is (recently) more pregnant.

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!
(Clive UK, 9 September 2009 14:38)

Of course it's better to talk about UK Intelligence... that has showed us its talent in Irak.

First and formost Miloshevic never wanted peace, becasue he thought he can concure all former federal entities and rule them as he pleases.
Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail
Everybody should know that whereever there is a war going on, there is always countries that back others. One country backs one side another country the other side, so don't be suprised if French Intel Service helped Croations. Serbia got a lot of fighters coming from : Russia, Poland, Greece amongst many other countries. This is normal when a war is going on.

"Common interests" is an interesting euphemism to cover one's own -- ahem -- arse. I guess Bernard KOucher running to get Ceku out of jail was also for "common interests", as was fixing Haradinaj's trial to let him walk. It's always funny to see how Western powers use smaller countries for their own ends no different, perhaps even more so, than Russia, China, et al. But they just have a better way of covering up their tracks.

Lots of ugly secrets being kept in archives. The French secret service is also alleged to have been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.
(Zoran, 9 September 2009 09:37)

Well, aks a dutch guy what happened the famous day... and they will tell you that the french didn't send them the necessary helicopteres coverage they had continuousely asked for. So in other words they found themselves with no possibility to stop anything apart from runing away!
Now the question remain to the french, why?

More interesting that this article is coming out in the Liberation, a sort of left side newspaper vs a right govnt!
here is the article in french...

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101589154-ou-l-on-protege-un-criminel-de-guerre

The article confirms the b92 summary and says that the DGSE (french CIA) were involved with Gotovina mainly during the operation storm and this until 2000.
They tried to stop his arrest but our famous Carla Del Ponte was on the way...

Basically they are afraid that Gotovina will talk and that the DGSE left some compromising material!
That's maybe the reason why Hague has so much difficulties to receive the war documentation from Croatia and why the French, via the Germans are so much pushing the Croates towards EU...

It is just a matter of time when the truth will surface and put the finger on all these behind of the scene criminals!

Serbia needs to wash its hands from the false friendship France gives it. So much for WWI history, alliances etc. What they've done since the 90's should never be forgotten i) Visit by a French President to Sarajevo on June 28 ii) Bombings iii) Support for Kosovo iv)Support for Gotovina...I could go on. With friends like that, who needs enemies. They should just keep things to a minimum, with consulates for our nationals living there, but as for so-called friendship...look elsewhere...

It amazing how far France has come with it's relationship to Serbia. Dedicating a huge monument to Serbia for the sacrifices our people suffered in WW1 along side our "allies" to this disgrace.

France has lost it's place on the global stage, and the current Napoleon needs a another step stool so he may tower over ruling of hobits.

Stephane
Regardless of your comments nobody believes you. Serbs certainly have no reason to believe you. Remember in March 2004 your soldiers sat in Camp Belvedere overlooking a Serb village outside of Mitrovica and stood by as the Albanians evicted and then burnt the place. As Patton once said “I would rather a German Division in front of me than a French Division behind me”. I am afraid that no matter how much you try to bat back at the Brits for most of the world it does not work.

Oh, yes, Ataman...
The Habsburg Monarchy, and particularly Hungarian rule was SOOO much better for Vojvodina, Bosnia, and Croatia-Slavonia... such a shame that "The West" broke up that marvelous country.

If "The West" had half a brain, Serbia should have been forced to become a part of it in 1914, because everyone "knows" that a great Empire is more economically effective than a small country.

Why just compare the old Russian Empire with, say, Belgium. Or the Soviet Union with Norway. Bigger is so much better.

Who cares that some small peoples might like to try to live in a separate country. The Habsburgs/Romanovs/soviet leaders have every right to make them live in a much more rational and large country.

As a matter of fact, the original sin was the break-up of that most perfect (because large) Empire, the Ottoman Empire! Russia should be blamed for this! Serbia should NEVER have been allowed to become independent. Nor Greece, nor Bulgaria, nor (come to think of it) your beloved Hungary.

Wake up, Ataman. Trianon - and the Versailles system - wasn't all bad.

Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail

Sweet Jesus, if that isnt selective historical revisionism, I dont know what is.

So tell me my Albanian irridentist friend, what do you call the ethnic cleansing of 600,000 Serbs, Jews and Roma from Croatia and Kosmet respectively?

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!
(Clive UK, 9 September 2009 14:38)

Of course it's better to talk about UK Intelligence... that has showed us its talent in Irak.
(Stephane, 9 September 2009 17:53)

Seems that besides several basketball,volleyball,soccer and tennis matches we can also witness a match between the british bulldog and the gallic cock tonight.What a historic duel.

It makes me wonder what is the point of the Gotovina trial. His defense lawyer has a history of working for the Pentagon and so we can safely assume that some sort of deal is being arranged by one means or another in the ICTY that Gotovina doesn't spill the beans on the US criminal involvement in the ethinc cleansing of 250,000 croatian serbs.

What we do know is that, as per usual, the US agencies created a 'private' company, usually a CIA seed company, called Military Professional Resources Inc. (MPRI) which was/is staffed by 'ex-' military/intelligence etc. personel (Blackwater/Xe now in Iraq is of the same ilk) from the US that provided planning, satellite and interception data to the Croats. The French, Germans and friends provide weapons via third parties such as weapons dealers Jacques Monsier, Viktor Bout and other front companies that were set up by those intelligence services.

If Gotovina doesn't spill the beans, then we know that a deal has been made at the highest levels in the ICTY, judicially and by its NATO and friendly sponsors.

If we are going to deal honestly with war crimes, then all those who have been involved need to be exposed. I doubt this will happen as the ICTY is institutionally racist against the Serbs and protects others under the argument that it is a tribunal that deals 'solely with the states of the former Yugoslavia'.

And the West calls it 'justice'.

Timotimekvej-
I know - and you surely will never forget; brave little Serbia (as she was called in WWI in the English press) was Britain and France and Russia's ally (and at the end America's too). Some things in the past were beautiful. But don't be confused - that was the West, then, not the Habsburg Monarchy or Germany.

But read Ataman's comment, and you'll understand that my words were a sarcastic reply to his idea that it was a shame to break up the Habsburg Monarchy (particularly the Hungarian bit).

If "The West" had half a brain, Serbia should have been forced to become a part of it in 1914, because everyone "knows" that a great Empire is more economically effective than a small country.
Weber, you see, Serbia was forced to be part of Austria-Hungary 1914, but Serbia resisted destroying much biger army of Austria-Hungary empire in two battles(Cer and Kolubara), Salonica front 1917, destruction of Austria-Hungary empire 1918! You try to take away freedom from someone and face anihilation!

First and formost Miloshevic never wanted peace, becasue he thought he can concure all former federal entities and rule them as he pleases.
Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail
Everybody should know that whereever there is a war going on, there is always countries that back others. One country backs one side another country the other side, so don't be suprised if French Intel Service helped Croations. Serbia got a lot of fighters coming from : Russia, Poland, Greece amongst many other countries. This is normal when a war is going on.

"Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail"

There can be no peacefull divorce unless minority rights are guaranteed. In Croatia and Bosnia they werent. Besides, Izetbegovic wanted to create an islamic republic in Bosnia. Serbs and Croats were not to found of this for obvious reasons. Not to mention K-Albanians illegal declaration of independence and theft of Serbian soil. Now, who's to blame for the wars?

French intelligence services, the DGSE, had helped the Croatian Army.
--
Lots of ugly secrets being kept in archives. The French secret service is also alleged to have been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.

Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail
(Kosova-USA, 9 September 2009 14:12)

1) "Everyone"?
2) Whom did that divorce - peaceful or not - benefit? I can't name a single side. Not even Slovenia.

But sure, the competition within and outside of EU did benefit.

By the way: the peaceful divorce of Czechoslovakia did not benefit most people either. Usually, these divorces destroy a great deal of infrastructure and make once trivial dealings more complicated.

Best example is the Austrian Empire. After it's break-up the combined industrial output of it's former member countries did not reach the level what it used to be for many decades. And at the time it did reach - none of them was competitive enough.

From socio-economical point of view both Trianon and the break-up of YU was a major disaster. I don't think the combined power of ex-YU parts will EVER reach the level what it used to be.

And some KLAnsmen who live in medieval times have to grow up, change the strategy and not look for a "sugar daddy" anymore. Ottoman Empire wasn't a good sugar daddy, neither was Italy, Dritte Reich - and now it turns, EU or USA isn't that either. These "major powers" look for own temporary benefit. Luckily for you - you belong to one. I can "best" that with the same plus one more. But others are stuck there.

That whole period of time was a bunch of other people meddling in affairs and really messing it up at the price of thousands of innocent lives and millions of lives being changed for the worse. Peace was close numerous times, but Western countries kept pushing one side to hold out, continue the war etc.
The break up may have happened anyway, but a lot less violent.

anything to keep the blood off their hands and the mud off their faces...

Extra motivation for tonight's match .

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!

Oh, yes, Ataman...
The Habsburg Monarchy, and particularly Hungarian rule was SOOO much better for Vojvodina, Bosnia, and Croatia-Slavonia... such a shame that "The West" broke up that marvelous country.

If "The West" had half a brain, Serbia should have been forced to become a part of it in 1914, because everyone "knows" that a great Empire is more economically effective than a small country.

Why just compare the old Russian Empire with, say, Belgium. Or the Soviet Union with Norway. Bigger is so much better.

Who cares that some small peoples might like to try to live in a separate country. The Habsburgs/Romanovs/soviet leaders have every right to make them live in a much more rational and large country.

As a matter of fact, the original sin was the break-up of that most perfect (because large) Empire, the Ottoman Empire! Russia should be blamed for this! Serbia should NEVER have been allowed to become independent. Nor Greece, nor Bulgaria, nor (come to think of it) your beloved Hungary.

Wake up, Ataman. Trianon - and the Versailles system - wasn't all bad.

The break up may have happened anyway, but a lot less violent.
(kujon, 9 September 2009 11:07)
--
Absolutely and there was an agreement very early on called the "Lisbon agreement" in Bosnia that was initially accepted by all parties until the US convinced Izetbegovic to renege. The war started and in the end they got nothing more than the original agreement accept tens of thousands of dead civilians and lots of destruction. As mentioned the West seems to make a mess of everything they touch - the question being whether it's done on purpose.

Zoran.....I realize that you are trying to give the West the "benefit of the doubt"- but we all KNOW that the West's hands were (and are still) dirty....
(Rick, 9 September 2009 14:21)

True - with addition, that the same applies to the "East" as well. Both ladies are pregnant, but at least in the case of former YU, the one in the "West" is (recently) more pregnant.

"Common interests" is an interesting euphemism to cover one's own -- ahem -- arse. I guess Bernard KOucher running to get Ceku out of jail was also for "common interests", as was fixing Haradinaj's trial to let him walk. It's always funny to see how Western powers use smaller countries for their own ends no different, perhaps even more so, than Russia, China, et al. But they just have a better way of covering up their tracks.

Lots of ugly secrets being kept in archives. The French secret service is also alleged to have been involved in the Srebrenica massacre.
(Zoran, 9 September 2009 09:37)

Well, aks a dutch guy what happened the famous day... and they will tell you that the french didn't send them the necessary helicopteres coverage they had continuousely asked for. So in other words they found themselves with no possibility to stop anything apart from runing away!
Now the question remain to the french, why?

More interesting that this article is coming out in the Liberation, a sort of left side newspaper vs a right govnt!
here is the article in french...

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0101589154-ou-l-on-protege-un-criminel-de-guerre

The article confirms the b92 summary and says that the DGSE (french CIA) were involved with Gotovina mainly during the operation storm and this until 2000.
They tried to stop his arrest but our famous Carla Del Ponte was on the way...

Basically they are afraid that Gotovina will talk and that the DGSE left some compromising material!
That's maybe the reason why Hague has so much difficulties to receive the war documentation from Croatia and why the French, via the Germans are so much pushing the Croates towards EU...

It is just a matter of time when the truth will surface and put the finger on all these behind of the scene criminals!

It amazing how far France has come with it's relationship to Serbia. Dedicating a huge monument to Serbia for the sacrifices our people suffered in WW1 along side our "allies" to this disgrace.

France has lost it's place on the global stage, and the current Napoleon needs a another step stool so he may tower over ruling of hobits.

It makes me wonder what is the point of the Gotovina trial. His defense lawyer has a history of working for the Pentagon and so we can safely assume that some sort of deal is being arranged by one means or another in the ICTY that Gotovina doesn't spill the beans on the US criminal involvement in the ethinc cleansing of 250,000 croatian serbs.

What we do know is that, as per usual, the US agencies created a 'private' company, usually a CIA seed company, called Military Professional Resources Inc. (MPRI) which was/is staffed by 'ex-' military/intelligence etc. personel (Blackwater/Xe now in Iraq is of the same ilk) from the US that provided planning, satellite and interception data to the Croats. The French, Germans and friends provide weapons via third parties such as weapons dealers Jacques Monsier, Viktor Bout and other front companies that were set up by those intelligence services.

If Gotovina doesn't spill the beans, then we know that a deal has been made at the highest levels in the ICTY, judicially and by its NATO and friendly sponsors.

If we are going to deal honestly with war crimes, then all those who have been involved need to be exposed. I doubt this will happen as the ICTY is institutionally racist against the Serbs and protects others under the argument that it is a tribunal that deals 'solely with the states of the former Yugoslavia'.

And the West calls it 'justice'.

Everyone else in former Yug, wanted a peacfull divorce but to no avail

Sweet Jesus, if that isnt selective historical revisionism, I dont know what is.

So tell me my Albanian irridentist friend, what do you call the ethnic cleansing of 600,000 Serbs, Jews and Roma from Croatia and Kosmet respectively?

As mentioned the West seems to make a mess of everything they touch - the question being whether it's done on purpose.
(Zoran, 9 September 2009 13:05)

Zoran.....I realize that you are trying to give the West the "benefit of the doubt"- but we all KNOW that the West's hands were (and are still) dirty....and that everything the West does, they do so to fit their own agenda. And it's not so much the countries of the West, but rather the "shadow governments" of these countries that are "pulling the strings" which are to blame. But, again, nothing happens "by accident"- and we all know that! Why do you think that Western countries are immune to any form of prosecution by ANY World Court? Follow the money......

Stephane
Regardless of your comments nobody believes you. Serbs certainly have no reason to believe you. Remember in March 2004 your soldiers sat in Camp Belvedere overlooking a Serb village outside of Mitrovica and stood by as the Albanians evicted and then burnt the place. As Patton once said “I would rather a German Division in front of me than a French Division behind me”. I am afraid that no matter how much you try to bat back at the Brits for most of the world it does not work.

Serbia needs to wash its hands from the false friendship France gives it. So much for WWI history, alliances etc. What they've done since the 90's should never be forgotten i) Visit by a French President to Sarajevo on June 28 ii) Bombings iii) Support for Kosovo iv)Support for Gotovina...I could go on. With friends like that, who needs enemies. They should just keep things to a minimum, with consulates for our nationals living there, but as for so-called friendship...look elsewhere...

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!
(Clive UK, 9 September 2009 14:38)

Of course it's better to talk about UK Intelligence... that has showed us its talent in Irak.

Ha Ha – I am afraid that the phrase French Intelligence is a bit like the term Socialist Worker in the UK – a contradiction in terms!!!
(Clive UK, 9 September 2009 14:38)

Of course it's better to talk about UK Intelligence... that has showed us its talent in Irak.
(Stephane, 9 September 2009 17:53)

Seems that besides several basketball,volleyball,soccer and tennis matches we can also witness a match between the british bulldog and the gallic cock tonight.What a historic duel.

If "The West" had half a brain, Serbia should have been forced to become a part of it in 1914, because everyone "knows" that a great Empire is more economically effective than a small country.
Weber, you see, Serbia was forced to be part of Austria-Hungary 1914, but Serbia resisted destroying much biger army of Austria-Hungary empire in two battles(Cer and Kolubara), Salonica front 1917, destruction of Austria-Hungary empire 1918! You try to take away freedom from someone and face anihilation!

Timotimekvej-
I know - and you surely will never forget; brave little Serbia (as she was called in WWI in the English press) was Britain and France and Russia's ally (and at the end America's too). Some things in the past were beautiful. But don't be confused - that was the West, then, not the Habsburg Monarchy or Germany.

But read Ataman's comment, and you'll understand that my words were a sarcastic reply to his idea that it was a shame to break up the Habsburg Monarchy (particularly the Hungarian bit).