Over 200,000 Kosovo Serb IDPs

BELGRADE -- Central Serbia is still home to over 200,000 internally displaced persons (IDP), driven out of their homes in Kosovo.
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10 years later and we still have hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed Serbians. I suppose NATO, the US, UK and Germany are all proud of this achievement but must be disappointed along with our ethnic Albanian citizens that they did not completely cleanse the province of all non-Albanians.

The fact that so many Serbians remain cleansed after such a long period is a crime and demonstrates that NATO is an enemy to Serbians. NATO causes death, destructions and instability where ever it goes - just look at Afghanistan and the endless deaths of civilians.

I'll certainly be glad to see this immoral force leave the province. The tides are turning.

" Central Serbia is still home to over 200,000 internally displaced persons (IDP), driven out of their homes in Kosovo."

Math: How many were there in 1998 - how many they are now = real number. There no 200,000 missing and you know it.

B92, how about doing some investigative reports, you went to North Albania with a camera after all for something you knew it was a lie, this can be solved by staying in Serbia

So let me get this right, in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs? Either they started producing like in Africa or something is really fishy here, are these ppl sure they are not mixing Krajina Serbs with Kosovo's?

Maybe the minister can finally provide the details that would soothe the doubts in the international community about those figures: what is the ethnic composition of those 200,000 and from which places do they come?

When the government is pointing an assault rifle at you and telling you they'll wipe out your entire family and actually doing this for quite a few families, that is driven away. Let's keep in mind what actually happened in Kosovo.

--
Good point, we know what happened. But it happened to at least half of Albanian families (remember that "picnic"?) not a few. Some 12,000 were killed so that makes it thousands of families.

"in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs?"

Yes exactly. But this exact same stubborn point has been raised here so many times, you'd think by now one of the smarter contributors from the pro-Serbia would offer up some explanation. But nothing is ever forthcoming. So forgive those who know their maths for believing this is straight propaganda.

That does not alter the facts about the plight of the 70,000 or so Serb refugees from Kosovo, but absurd levels of exaggeration are a common propaganda ploy with aims such as dehumanisation of the opponent and shifting ultimate blame rather than justice.

When the government is begging people to come and building them homes, that is not driven away. When the government is pointing an assault rifle at you and telling you they'll wipe out your entire family and actually doing this for quite a few families, that is driven away. Let's keep in mind what actually happened in Kosovo.

Some 12,000 were killed so that makes it thousands of families.
(aRtA, 5 September 2009 14:14)

Lies, lies, lies.

B92,do you care to ask the Serbian government how can there be more Kosovo Serbs in Serbia than the total number of Serbs who live in Kosovo in '89? Everyone is asking this questions, yet no answers. Could the Serbs from Krajina and Bosnia that were settled in Kosovo be the missing link? Is this the inconvenient truth Serbia doesn't want to discuss.

Matthew: “Dim Tuc, these are the numbers from the UNHCR, I don’t think the UNHCR engages in pro-Serbian propaganda.”

Thanks for the reply Mathew. UNHCR has never done its own surveys, at least in any depth, it just uses Serbian refugee agency figures.

”Experts make mistakes, but this is the best guess we have at the moment.”

No, it is a very bad “guess”, and I gave the reasons why.

“Reality is there was a great deal of misinformation at the start of the war, like claims of 100,000 killed before the NATO bombing (we now know it was only 2,000).”

Sorry Mathew, but that is not correct. Your source is probably from one of the comments here. ALL the western media before the bombing started used the 2000 figure. No-one used the 100,000 figure that has been thrown around here. Western propagandists claimed Serbia was likely to kill a great many more than that 2000 if they didn’t bomb. While as you know I oppose the bombing, this claim was not unreasonable given Slobo’s past. In reality however, NATO bombing propelled Slobo into doing exactly what NATO had predicted.

The figure of 100,000 was raised by US defense secretary Cohen (I think) in the middle of the war. But even then he didn’t say 100,000 had been killed, he said 100,000 were missing. War propaganda perhaps, but in his next sentence he said 4,264 had been killed, not 100,000. Again that was not before the ware started.

“Besides, this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Serbians were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo and still it is not safe for them to return.”

I does change it, because according to official Serbian figures, there are some 140,000 Serbs in Kosovo, ie, the majority. Of course you are right that that doesn’t change the fact that around 70,000 Serbs were either ethnically cleansed or fled in fear of being attacked, though of course this figure includes police and other who had committed war crimes, looting etc and wouldn’t dare return for good reason.

“Serbia was punished enough for killing 2,000 KLA.”

That is well beneath what I expect of you Mathew. The great majority of the 2000 were civilians, though among their number were KLA. But after NATO started bombing, at least 10-12,000 Albanians, mostly civilians, were slaughtered by the Serbian army and MUP and paramilitaries. And 850,000 were driven from their country, 100,000 houses destroyed, and 215 destroyed. But yes, Serbia certainly has been punished enough, IU agree. Just that I don’t see the elementary right of the Kosovars, after all that, to independence, being an aspect of “punishment” of Serbia, even if it has the spin-off effect that many Serbs feel that way.

“Its time to treat our innocent civilians with dignity and respect.”

Yes, I 100% agree. No innocent civilian should ever be touched as “revenge”. But we live in a bad world where there are enough people who think that way, so it happens. Unfortunately, manipulating the truth to try to shift fundamental responsibility will not help heal the wounds that are necessary to achieve that result we both wish for.

When the government is begging people to come and building them homes, that is not driven away.

If Kosovo was safe place for living for Serbs they don't need to beg anyone. You know that very well!

To my fellow citizens. No one left Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing. NATO made the situation in Kosovo much worse and it still hasn't recovered. Our ethnic Albanian citizens returned home after their two month holiday whereas Serbians are still prevented after 10 years.
(Zoran, 5 September 2009 17:20)

Fellow Citizens? Thanks, but no thanks. I will take my chances as a citizen of Kosovo, no matter how painfull might that road be.

NATO made the situation worse, 2 months vacation? Is this a joke? Did 12,000 albanians kill themselves also? Have you not heard of mass graves with Albanian boddies found all the way to Belgrade, pizza shop massacres, entire families annihilated (Berisha & Jashari family) from your police and army? Is this self-denial or simply being cynical? These attocities were not done from some guerilla group, uncontrolled, and untrained, but from a regular army and police force representing a modern and civilized country in the end of 20th century.


Do you understand now why returning of K-Serbs many of whom supported the Serbian army offensive and attrocities, is not an easy thing to swallow for K-Albanians.

So it's not a good time for those 200,000 serbs to return from their vacation in Serbia.

Denis,

"Not sure if this is something that should make you proud, but the very fact that you had to send your army against your very own citizens says so much about Serbia being an irresponsible patron of Kosovo."

And what do you suggest Serbia should have done? Any country in the world would confront terrorists on their own territory with their military.

"I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved."

Actually you are wrong. It is a known fact that Serbia is the successor state to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure why you brought that up when myself and many others have commented on this fact many times.

To my fellow citizens. No one left Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing. NATO made the situation in Kosovo much worse and it still hasn't recovered. Our ethnic Albanian citizens returned home after their two month holiday whereas Serbians are still prevented after 10 years.

So I have to admit, you have outdone the Serbians there by far. You all must be so proud of your achievement.

in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs?"


Maybe because not only kosovo Albanians have high birth rate!

“you'd think by now one of the smarter contributors from the pro-Serbia would offer up some explanation. But nothing is ever forthcoming. So forgive those who know their maths for believing this is straight propaganda. (Dim Tuc, 5 September 2009 18:15)”

Dim Tuc, these are the numbers from the UNHCR, I don’t think the UNHCR engages in pro-Serbian propaganda.

Just because the numbers don’t fit what you want to believe, you shouldn’t dismiss them. Experts make mistakes, but this is the best guess we have at the moment.

Reality is there was a great deal of misinformation at the start of the war, like claims of 100,000 killed before the NATO bombing (we now know it was only 2,000). If you are going to discuss propaganda and misinformation, I suggest you start there.

Besides, this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Serbians were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo and still it is not safe for them to return.

Serbia was punished enough for killing 2,000 KLA. Its time to treat our innocent civilians with dignity and respect.

When comparing NATO's "anti-terrorist" activity in Afghanistan to Serbia's in Kosovo, our ethnic Albanian terrorists got off fairly lightly I think. They were just about to get crushed before they called in their air force. But even in the end you still signed that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Check UNSCR 1244 my fellow citizen.
(Zoran, 5 September 2009 23:05)

Those who suffered Serbian repression, slaughtery and wars in the Balkans know very well who were the terrorsits, and mass grave diggers. Check the trials in Hague Tribunal to see how many Serbs were indicted for war crimes and mass murder never seen in Europe for decades. Albanians did not dig the mass grave for Albanians in Belgrade, nor did NATO .... it doesn't take a genious to understand this.

Of course K-Alb resistance was just about to get crushed. It was not a war of equals. Serbia had a regular army armed to the teeth, and the KLA was a guerrila & untrained force. Not sure if this is something that should make you proud, but the very fact that you had to send your army against your very own citizens says so much about Serbia being an irresponsible patron of Kosovo.

I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved.

I truly believe that you don't really care about K-Alb in any way, shape or form. I think Serbia wants Kosovo under it's wing to wait until a day another Milosevic comes along and settles the score the old way, mass graves, and ethnic cleansing,..

pejioni so the census allso said that pristina had around 300,000 people before the war 40,000 of them serbs now there is more then 500,000 albanians and 5 serb families. you should be ashamed of yourself how come when every other kosovo city and town have increased their population prizren by 35,000 urosevac by 30,000 djakovica by 20,00 gnjilane by 15,000. where are all this people coming from i think you know the answer to that

Regarding mostly Zoran's comments.

NATO never had anything against Serbia, I think. It was just business.

NATO cares about NATO and NATO only. The torment of the Serbs and the coddling of the Albanians was incidental to larger economic/political/military concerns.

NATO cares nothing for the Albanians, or they never would have bombed Kosovo.

They obviously don't care about the Serbs, but all of the propaganda again was only incidental to those greater concerns. The vilification of Serbia was necessary in order to gain mass consent in the NATO countries for NATO to commit mass murder and destruction all over Serbia (including of course, Kosovo) not to mention in all of the neighboring countries impacted by the humanitarian disaster the NATO bombing created.

NATO doesn't care about poor or miserable people anywhere, including in their own countries. NATO is not supposed to care. NATO has one concern- serving master.

They are like Gollum with the Ring.

However, the article is about the IDPs in Central Serbia. As I accuse NATO of being inhuman and uncaring, I see the same coldness in my soul.

I will finish writing this, go get a little snack from my well stocked kitchen, and sleep like a baby on my king size pillowtop mattress. And I won't worry a thing about those 200k IDPs, or 12k Albanians, or 99 red baloons.

I am a hypocrite to pretend to care deeply about anyone but myself and my immediate family.

Did 12,000 albanians kill themselves also?
(Denis, 5 September 2009 21:42)
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Probably not but haven't you heard? NATO are very good at bombing civilians. If you claim 12,000 were killed then I suggest you go and speak to NATO as it wasn't Serbia that killed them.

When comparing NATO's "anti-terrorist" activity in Afghanistan to Serbia's in Kosovo, our ethnic Albanian terrorists got off fairly lightly I think. They were just about to get crushed before they called in their air force. But even in the end you still signed that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Check UNSCR 1244 my fellow citizen.

The last census in Kosovo was in 1991 and not 1989. It totalled 360,000 non Albanians. So 200,000 IDPs (not all necessarily Serbs despite the article headline) and 140,000 Serb population of Kosovo is not impossible

"The last census in Kosovo was in 1991 and not 1989. It totalled 360,000 non Albanians. So 200,000 IDPs (not all necessarily Serbs despite the article headline) and 140,000 Serb population of Kosovo is not impossible
(PJD, 7 September 2009 00:00)"

OK, thanks for that, perhaps we are making some progress. In that 1991 census, there were 190,000 Serbs and 20,000 Montenegrins, so let's say 210,000. Therefore there were another 150,000 non-Serb minorities. So the questions are: How many non-Serb non-Albanians are there now in Kosovo? How many are there in Serbia of the 200,000 + IDPs claimed? How many are in third countries?

Getting to the heart of this would be useful for separating facts from propaganda, and would be useful for the effectiveness arguing the case of the plight of the Serb minority and refugees as much as for anyone else.

Should the Serbians return to Kosova, then millions of Germans should return to Poland and Czech Republic.
(massimo, 7 September 2009 10:53)
Or maybe should Albanians back to Albania??

To all people how manipulates with the figures or are UNHCR also lying now

from the linked report below:

"To date, only some 15,600 minority returns have been registered – out of the estimated 250,000 ethnic Serbs, Roma and others who left the province after the withdrawal of Serbian forces in 1999. There are still more than 220,000 displaced Kosovo Serbs and Roma – over 207,000 of them in Serbia and the rest in Montenegro."

http://www.unhcr.org/4513b490b.html

Denis:
> I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved.

Since you like to read, read this:

"In the event that Montenegro leaves the union of states, the international documents relating to the FRY, especially UN Security Council Resolution 1244, would relate in their entirety to Serbia as successor." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1874523.stm

According to the Serbia page of the UNHCR:

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e48d9f6.html

Originating from Serbia (as of jan 2009) are:

225,879 IDPs
185,935 refugees

An IDP is not a refugee as a refugee is not an IDP, in case anyone thinks this is double counting.

Even without knowing the breakdown of IDPs, we can easily fit in to this total 200k+ serbs & 150k roma ethincally cleansed from Kosovo by the KLA and friends. Note again, these figures are 'originating in Serbia'.

As per usual, the roma are ignored, particularly by the kosovo albanians.

Kosovo, Back(wards) to the Future!

Dear Zoran, if NATO would be so a dangerous organization, why is there a queue formed by countries willing to enter it (Serbia included)?
But I agree with you that Serbia does not belong to the western world. Serbia should feel more comfortable with Russia, Belarus, Transdnistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. By the way, the latter two have cleansed thier territories from their ethnic rivals (Georgians) as Serbia tried to cleanse Kosova from Albanians.
Should the Serbians return to Kosova, then millions of Germans should return to Poland and Czech Republic.

'Getting to the heart of this would be useful for separating facts from propaganda, and would be useful for the effectiveness arguing the case of the plight of the Serb minority and refugees as much as for anyone else.
(DimTuc, 7 September 2009 11:13) '

Exactly. Once there a census is held, and there are some figures to work with, maybe some of these ritualized debates can be ended.

Unfortunately, the first census is not slated to be held until 2011 (in line with the EU-country censuses), so the same arguments will probably continue until the results come out. After which they'll be replaced by arguments about census-taking methodology, but at least it'll be a change. (My guess: all the figures, on all sides, are too high. But it's just a guess.)

And what do you suggest Serbia should have done? Any country in the world would confront terrorists on their own territory with their military.

(Nenad from Melbourne, 7 September 2009 04:59)

The question should be the other way around... what do you suggest that K-Alb do while suffering the terror and surpression of Serbian gov, but pick up the guns and liberate themselves from Serbian oppresion. Read every human rights report at the time to see who was oppresing who. K-Alb tried peacefully for 10 years and your gov didn't care to talk. So your arrogance and brutality paid off.

All the evidence of Hague trials proved that Serbia was being led by a bunch who did not spare kids, eldery, woman, and any civilian in general, again check the Hague Tribunal trials and see what your gov was capable of.

Sounds like some of these demographic "statistics" about Kosovo are coming from reliable sources such as Wikipedia.

Refreshing to read that nobody is arguing whether ethnic cleansing actually occurred in Kosovo, rather the number of victims. Admitting you are guilty is the first step to cleanse your soul.

" Central Serbia is still home to over 200,000 internally displaced persons (IDP), driven out of their homes in Kosovo."

Math: How many were there in 1998 - how many they are now = real number. There no 200,000 missing and you know it.

B92, how about doing some investigative reports, you went to North Albania with a camera after all for something you knew it was a lie, this can be solved by staying in Serbia

When the government is pointing an assault rifle at you and telling you they'll wipe out your entire family and actually doing this for quite a few families, that is driven away. Let's keep in mind what actually happened in Kosovo.

--
Good point, we know what happened. But it happened to at least half of Albanian families (remember that "picnic"?) not a few. Some 12,000 were killed so that makes it thousands of families.

So let me get this right, in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs? Either they started producing like in Africa or something is really fishy here, are these ppl sure they are not mixing Krajina Serbs with Kosovo's?

Some 12,000 were killed so that makes it thousands of families.
(aRtA, 5 September 2009 14:14)

Lies, lies, lies.

When the government is begging people to come and building them homes, that is not driven away. When the government is pointing an assault rifle at you and telling you they'll wipe out your entire family and actually doing this for quite a few families, that is driven away. Let's keep in mind what actually happened in Kosovo.

BELGRADE -- Central Serbia is still home to over 200,000 internally displaced persons (IDP), driven out of their homes in Kosovo.
--
10 years later and we still have hundreds of thousands of ethnically cleansed Serbians. I suppose NATO, the US, UK and Germany are all proud of this achievement but must be disappointed along with our ethnic Albanian citizens that they did not completely cleanse the province of all non-Albanians.

The fact that so many Serbians remain cleansed after such a long period is a crime and demonstrates that NATO is an enemy to Serbians. NATO causes death, destructions and instability where ever it goes - just look at Afghanistan and the endless deaths of civilians.

I'll certainly be glad to see this immoral force leave the province. The tides are turning.

To my fellow citizens. No one left Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing. NATO made the situation in Kosovo much worse and it still hasn't recovered. Our ethnic Albanian citizens returned home after their two month holiday whereas Serbians are still prevented after 10 years.

So I have to admit, you have outdone the Serbians there by far. You all must be so proud of your achievement.

“you'd think by now one of the smarter contributors from the pro-Serbia would offer up some explanation. But nothing is ever forthcoming. So forgive those who know their maths for believing this is straight propaganda. (Dim Tuc, 5 September 2009 18:15)”

Dim Tuc, these are the numbers from the UNHCR, I don’t think the UNHCR engages in pro-Serbian propaganda.

Just because the numbers don’t fit what you want to believe, you shouldn’t dismiss them. Experts make mistakes, but this is the best guess we have at the moment.

Reality is there was a great deal of misinformation at the start of the war, like claims of 100,000 killed before the NATO bombing (we now know it was only 2,000). If you are going to discuss propaganda and misinformation, I suggest you start there.

Besides, this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Serbians were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo and still it is not safe for them to return.

Serbia was punished enough for killing 2,000 KLA. Its time to treat our innocent civilians with dignity and respect.

in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs?"


Maybe because not only kosovo Albanians have high birth rate!

Did 12,000 albanians kill themselves also?
(Denis, 5 September 2009 21:42)
--
Probably not but haven't you heard? NATO are very good at bombing civilians. If you claim 12,000 were killed then I suggest you go and speak to NATO as it wasn't Serbia that killed them.

When comparing NATO's "anti-terrorist" activity in Afghanistan to Serbia's in Kosovo, our ethnic Albanian terrorists got off fairly lightly I think. They were just about to get crushed before they called in their air force. But even in the end you still signed that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Check UNSCR 1244 my fellow citizen.

When the government is begging people to come and building them homes, that is not driven away.

If Kosovo was safe place for living for Serbs they don't need to beg anyone. You know that very well!

pejioni so the census allso said that pristina had around 300,000 people before the war 40,000 of them serbs now there is more then 500,000 albanians and 5 serb families. you should be ashamed of yourself how come when every other kosovo city and town have increased their population prizren by 35,000 urosevac by 30,000 djakovica by 20,00 gnjilane by 15,000. where are all this people coming from i think you know the answer to that

To all people how manipulates with the figures or are UNHCR also lying now

from the linked report below:

"To date, only some 15,600 minority returns have been registered – out of the estimated 250,000 ethnic Serbs, Roma and others who left the province after the withdrawal of Serbian forces in 1999. There are still more than 220,000 displaced Kosovo Serbs and Roma – over 207,000 of them in Serbia and the rest in Montenegro."

http://www.unhcr.org/4513b490b.html

Denis:
> I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved.

Since you like to read, read this:

"In the event that Montenegro leaves the union of states, the international documents relating to the FRY, especially UN Security Council Resolution 1244, would relate in their entirety to Serbia as successor." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1874523.stm

To my fellow citizens. No one left Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing. NATO made the situation in Kosovo much worse and it still hasn't recovered. Our ethnic Albanian citizens returned home after their two month holiday whereas Serbians are still prevented after 10 years.
(Zoran, 5 September 2009 17:20)

Fellow Citizens? Thanks, but no thanks. I will take my chances as a citizen of Kosovo, no matter how painfull might that road be.

NATO made the situation worse, 2 months vacation? Is this a joke? Did 12,000 albanians kill themselves also? Have you not heard of mass graves with Albanian boddies found all the way to Belgrade, pizza shop massacres, entire families annihilated (Berisha & Jashari family) from your police and army? Is this self-denial or simply being cynical? These attocities were not done from some guerilla group, uncontrolled, and untrained, but from a regular army and police force representing a modern and civilized country in the end of 20th century.


Do you understand now why returning of K-Serbs many of whom supported the Serbian army offensive and attrocities, is not an easy thing to swallow for K-Albanians.

So it's not a good time for those 200,000 serbs to return from their vacation in Serbia.

When comparing NATO's "anti-terrorist" activity in Afghanistan to Serbia's in Kosovo, our ethnic Albanian terrorists got off fairly lightly I think. They were just about to get crushed before they called in their air force. But even in the end you still signed that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. Check UNSCR 1244 my fellow citizen.
(Zoran, 5 September 2009 23:05)

Those who suffered Serbian repression, slaughtery and wars in the Balkans know very well who were the terrorsits, and mass grave diggers. Check the trials in Hague Tribunal to see how many Serbs were indicted for war crimes and mass murder never seen in Europe for decades. Albanians did not dig the mass grave for Albanians in Belgrade, nor did NATO .... it doesn't take a genious to understand this.

Of course K-Alb resistance was just about to get crushed. It was not a war of equals. Serbia had a regular army armed to the teeth, and the KLA was a guerrila & untrained force. Not sure if this is something that should make you proud, but the very fact that you had to send your army against your very own citizens says so much about Serbia being an irresponsible patron of Kosovo.

I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved.

I truly believe that you don't really care about K-Alb in any way, shape or form. I think Serbia wants Kosovo under it's wing to wait until a day another Milosevic comes along and settles the score the old way, mass graves, and ethnic cleansing,..

Dear Zoran, if NATO would be so a dangerous organization, why is there a queue formed by countries willing to enter it (Serbia included)?
But I agree with you that Serbia does not belong to the western world. Serbia should feel more comfortable with Russia, Belarus, Transdnistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia. By the way, the latter two have cleansed thier territories from their ethnic rivals (Georgians) as Serbia tried to cleanse Kosova from Albanians.
Should the Serbians return to Kosova, then millions of Germans should return to Poland and Czech Republic.

Maybe the minister can finally provide the details that would soothe the doubts in the international community about those figures: what is the ethnic composition of those 200,000 and from which places do they come?

B92,do you care to ask the Serbian government how can there be more Kosovo Serbs in Serbia than the total number of Serbs who live in Kosovo in '89? Everyone is asking this questions, yet no answers. Could the Serbs from Krajina and Bosnia that were settled in Kosovo be the missing link? Is this the inconvenient truth Serbia doesn't want to discuss.

The last census in Kosovo was in 1991 and not 1989. It totalled 360,000 non Albanians. So 200,000 IDPs (not all necessarily Serbs despite the article headline) and 140,000 Serb population of Kosovo is not impossible

"in the last census conducted by Yugoslavia in '89 there was 194.190 Serbs living in Kosovo. Today they are estimated by Serbian sources some 140.000 Serbs living in Kosovo. So how can 200.000 K-Serbs still be IDPs?"

Yes exactly. But this exact same stubborn point has been raised here so many times, you'd think by now one of the smarter contributors from the pro-Serbia would offer up some explanation. But nothing is ever forthcoming. So forgive those who know their maths for believing this is straight propaganda.

That does not alter the facts about the plight of the 70,000 or so Serb refugees from Kosovo, but absurd levels of exaggeration are a common propaganda ploy with aims such as dehumanisation of the opponent and shifting ultimate blame rather than justice.

Regarding mostly Zoran's comments.

NATO never had anything against Serbia, I think. It was just business.

NATO cares about NATO and NATO only. The torment of the Serbs and the coddling of the Albanians was incidental to larger economic/political/military concerns.

NATO cares nothing for the Albanians, or they never would have bombed Kosovo.

They obviously don't care about the Serbs, but all of the propaganda again was only incidental to those greater concerns. The vilification of Serbia was necessary in order to gain mass consent in the NATO countries for NATO to commit mass murder and destruction all over Serbia (including of course, Kosovo) not to mention in all of the neighboring countries impacted by the humanitarian disaster the NATO bombing created.

NATO doesn't care about poor or miserable people anywhere, including in their own countries. NATO is not supposed to care. NATO has one concern- serving master.

They are like Gollum with the Ring.

However, the article is about the IDPs in Central Serbia. As I accuse NATO of being inhuman and uncaring, I see the same coldness in my soul.

I will finish writing this, go get a little snack from my well stocked kitchen, and sleep like a baby on my king size pillowtop mattress. And I won't worry a thing about those 200k IDPs, or 12k Albanians, or 99 red baloons.

I am a hypocrite to pretend to care deeply about anyone but myself and my immediate family.

Matthew: “Dim Tuc, these are the numbers from the UNHCR, I don’t think the UNHCR engages in pro-Serbian propaganda.”

Thanks for the reply Mathew. UNHCR has never done its own surveys, at least in any depth, it just uses Serbian refugee agency figures.

”Experts make mistakes, but this is the best guess we have at the moment.”

No, it is a very bad “guess”, and I gave the reasons why.

“Reality is there was a great deal of misinformation at the start of the war, like claims of 100,000 killed before the NATO bombing (we now know it was only 2,000).”

Sorry Mathew, but that is not correct. Your source is probably from one of the comments here. ALL the western media before the bombing started used the 2000 figure. No-one used the 100,000 figure that has been thrown around here. Western propagandists claimed Serbia was likely to kill a great many more than that 2000 if they didn’t bomb. While as you know I oppose the bombing, this claim was not unreasonable given Slobo’s past. In reality however, NATO bombing propelled Slobo into doing exactly what NATO had predicted.

The figure of 100,000 was raised by US defense secretary Cohen (I think) in the middle of the war. But even then he didn’t say 100,000 had been killed, he said 100,000 were missing. War propaganda perhaps, but in his next sentence he said 4,264 had been killed, not 100,000. Again that was not before the ware started.

“Besides, this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Serbians were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo and still it is not safe for them to return.”

I does change it, because according to official Serbian figures, there are some 140,000 Serbs in Kosovo, ie, the majority. Of course you are right that that doesn’t change the fact that around 70,000 Serbs were either ethnically cleansed or fled in fear of being attacked, though of course this figure includes police and other who had committed war crimes, looting etc and wouldn’t dare return for good reason.

“Serbia was punished enough for killing 2,000 KLA.”

That is well beneath what I expect of you Mathew. The great majority of the 2000 were civilians, though among their number were KLA. But after NATO started bombing, at least 10-12,000 Albanians, mostly civilians, were slaughtered by the Serbian army and MUP and paramilitaries. And 850,000 were driven from their country, 100,000 houses destroyed, and 215 destroyed. But yes, Serbia certainly has been punished enough, IU agree. Just that I don’t see the elementary right of the Kosovars, after all that, to independence, being an aspect of “punishment” of Serbia, even if it has the spin-off effect that many Serbs feel that way.

“Its time to treat our innocent civilians with dignity and respect.”

Yes, I 100% agree. No innocent civilian should ever be touched as “revenge”. But we live in a bad world where there are enough people who think that way, so it happens. Unfortunately, manipulating the truth to try to shift fundamental responsibility will not help heal the wounds that are necessary to achieve that result we both wish for.

Should the Serbians return to Kosova, then millions of Germans should return to Poland and Czech Republic.
(massimo, 7 September 2009 10:53)
Or maybe should Albanians back to Albania??

According to the Serbia page of the UNHCR:

http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e48d9f6.html

Originating from Serbia (as of jan 2009) are:

225,879 IDPs
185,935 refugees

An IDP is not a refugee as a refugee is not an IDP, in case anyone thinks this is double counting.

Even without knowing the breakdown of IDPs, we can easily fit in to this total 200k+ serbs & 150k roma ethincally cleansed from Kosovo by the KLA and friends. Note again, these figures are 'originating in Serbia'.

As per usual, the roma are ignored, particularly by the kosovo albanians.

Kosovo, Back(wards) to the Future!

And what do you suggest Serbia should have done? Any country in the world would confront terrorists on their own territory with their military.

(Nenad from Melbourne, 7 September 2009 04:59)

The question should be the other way around... what do you suggest that K-Alb do while suffering the terror and surpression of Serbian gov, but pick up the guns and liberate themselves from Serbian oppresion. Read every human rights report at the time to see who was oppresing who. K-Alb tried peacefully for 10 years and your gov didn't care to talk. So your arrogance and brutality paid off.

All the evidence of Hague trials proved that Serbia was being led by a bunch who did not spare kids, eldery, woman, and any civilian in general, again check the Hague Tribunal trials and see what your gov was capable of.

Denis,

"Not sure if this is something that should make you proud, but the very fact that you had to send your army against your very own citizens says so much about Serbia being an irresponsible patron of Kosovo."

And what do you suggest Serbia should have done? Any country in the world would confront terrorists on their own territory with their military.

"I have read UNSCR 1244, have you? It say that Kosovo is to remain part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia. There is no international agreement nor resolution that recognizes Serbia as ex-Yugoslavia, since Yugoslavia was in fact a union, which now it's disolved."

Actually you are wrong. It is a known fact that Serbia is the successor state to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure why you brought that up when myself and many others have commented on this fact many times.

"The last census in Kosovo was in 1991 and not 1989. It totalled 360,000 non Albanians. So 200,000 IDPs (not all necessarily Serbs despite the article headline) and 140,000 Serb population of Kosovo is not impossible
(PJD, 7 September 2009 00:00)"

OK, thanks for that, perhaps we are making some progress. In that 1991 census, there were 190,000 Serbs and 20,000 Montenegrins, so let's say 210,000. Therefore there were another 150,000 non-Serb minorities. So the questions are: How many non-Serb non-Albanians are there now in Kosovo? How many are there in Serbia of the 200,000 + IDPs claimed? How many are in third countries?

Getting to the heart of this would be useful for separating facts from propaganda, and would be useful for the effectiveness arguing the case of the plight of the Serb minority and refugees as much as for anyone else.

'Getting to the heart of this would be useful for separating facts from propaganda, and would be useful for the effectiveness arguing the case of the plight of the Serb minority and refugees as much as for anyone else.
(DimTuc, 7 September 2009 11:13) '

Exactly. Once there a census is held, and there are some figures to work with, maybe some of these ritualized debates can be ended.

Unfortunately, the first census is not slated to be held until 2011 (in line with the EU-country censuses), so the same arguments will probably continue until the results come out. After which they'll be replaced by arguments about census-taking methodology, but at least it'll be a change. (My guess: all the figures, on all sides, are too high. But it's just a guess.)

Sounds like some of these demographic "statistics" about Kosovo are coming from reliable sources such as Wikipedia.

Refreshing to read that nobody is arguing whether ethnic cleansing actually occurred in Kosovo, rather the number of victims. Admitting you are guilty is the first step to cleanse your soul.