Brazil to take part in ICJ hearings

Brazil has taken a principled stance; Kosovo’s future lies only within a negotiated compromise with the rest of Serbia.

Strong words from a big and powerful country. Hats off to the ambassador.

Muito Obrigado Brazil!!! Too bad your Portuguese cousins are not thinking as clearly and Portugal wonders why there is talk of the Azores separating!!

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.
(Kosova-USA, 4 September 2009 16:08)

I love these kind of comments because it underscores the ignorance behind them:)))

The world welcomes the non-biased opinion of the great nation of Brazil in the illegal unilateral declaration of independence by the temporary Albanian authorities in Kosovo - is that a sentence?

This is great news, Brazil has said that will never recognized Kosovo unless Serbia does, the U.S and West Europe could not convince us doing so, the Bush administration argument was too weak, as of today Brazil is in top 8 richest countries in World and according to the World Bank we have passed Russia, so it's good to see that Serbia has a big name supporting her! We don't need to sell coffee beans with GDP of 1,612,539 billions.

Brazil is a big and beautiful country with as much land as the US and a population of close to 200 million.It is an economic powerhouse and very close to acquiring a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.Brazil comprises more than half the continent of South America in both land area and population and any person who does not understand the significance of this country should educate himself.Not to even mention the beautiful women and the soccer gifts that Brazil has given to the world.

Thank you Brazil!

Obrigado Brasil.

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.
(Kosova-USA, 4 September 2009 16:08)

Don't worry about Brazil selling anything. Worry about the poverty and corruption amongst your own people.

"it is funny,but keep in mind one thing president lulla has studied in albania,during hoxha regjim!"
(lili, 4 September 2009 18:05)

That explains it then.

who cares about Brasli(poorest country in South AMerican).When I read some of comments,i was suprised,how Serbs didn't know nothink about geography.If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova).
(NoolaV!, 5 September 2009 12:16)

Where did you learn these incorrect "facts?" One of the so-called universities or private schools in Kosovo that hand out degrees?

"selling more coffe-beans"???

hey, Kosovo-usa, haven´t you realized yet, what kind of development Brazil has shown over the past decades???

given that you are posting comments like that one, I have strong doubts that you live in the US, since there even the poorest low-levelworking-class kid has at least a little bit of knowledge about Brazil.

as for the article:
compliments to their principled stand, they are just proving to be sovereign.

a strong and quite important supporter, indeed.

Mrs/Mr USA Kosovo, is not up to date on the world's economy, obviously. Brazil is in the top ten of economic powers. This is just sour apples posting by a disgruntled Albanian, that sees the world's backing for their illegal quest for stealing land slipping away. Brazil knows that Kosovo is Serbia!

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.

Don't you love Evolution. A "Request" for an advisory opinion has now evolved into a resolution "Ordered" the ICJ to give an advisory opinion.

EA:
> Brazil against the Kosova's independence. Brazil is entitled to its opnion and I am entitled to mine.

Opinions will no doubt be treated equally at the ICJ.

ben:
> 1. “We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity....”
> Simply IMPOSSIBLE! Typical statement where you use many words to say nothing.
> So Kosova vs Serbia 1:0

Statement says that Brazil believes latter principle takes precedence over the former. Would have thought this was obvious. ben vs Brazil 0:1 ;)

> - 1244 speaks about Yugoslavia and only in preamble (legally not binding)

For a guy who is quibbling over the wording of statements, you're remarkably loose with yours. Presume you mean references to the 'territorial integrity of FRY'.

If so, you are wrong. Is also mentioned in BOTH annexes. In addition, the structure of the entire document implies autonomy within FRY & not independence. When making their determination, ICJ judges will no doubt take this into account.

> - 1244 says that the final status of Kosova shall be solved through negotiations WITHOUT any PREJUDICE on outcome.

Oh.. & just where does it say this?

> 1244 does not say the final status will be determined via negotiations but independence is cannot be an outcome of those negotiations.

1244 doesn't mention independence at all - once again because the basic assumption underlying entire document is for autonomy within FRY.

> - I challenge you to find in 1244 the name of Serbia and moreover the part where calls on autonomy within Serbia (I guess in the best case it would’ve been Yugoslavia)

The Republic of Serbia is the successor state to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - including as it pertains to UN SC resolution 1244.

Do you really think there would be so much fuss about 1244 now if it was that easy to invalidate it just because it refers to FRY & not Serbia?

Here's an excerpt from an EU brokered agreement back in 2002:

"In the event that Montenegro leaves the union of states, the international documents relating to the FRY, especially UN Security Council Resolution 1244, would relate in their entirety to Serbia as successor."

Here's the source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1874523.stm

As for autonomy, it's actually mentioned many times & the whole document is structured around the concept. But the most relevant bit is in the 2nd annex:

"8. A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions. "

> 1244 was a compromise of Rambouye.

"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form — Henry Kissinger, Daily Telegraph, 28 June 1999 "

"However, the British defence minister, Lord Gilbert, said in an inquiry by a House committee "I think the terms put to Milošević at Rambouillet were absolutely intolerable; how could he possibly accept them; it was quite deliberate". "

FRY refused to sign Rambouillet because it gave NATO carte-blanche over the whole territory of Yugoslavia.

Rambouillet was a farce. Nothing more, nothing less.

One of the reasons the FRY signed 1244 was because this authority was limited only to Kosovo.

> Serbs and their tutors Russians were threatening veto if there was not any reference to Yugoslavia even in preamble.
> Albanians were asking that the resolution foresees the a popular referendum where people of Kosova will declare what they want.

And in the end, we got 1244 in which resolution of the dispute hinged on 'negotiation between the parties' with substantial autonomy.

But certainly not an agreement in which one party can unilaterally decide to declare independence.

> I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.

Guess then that all you have to do is explain your 'logic' to the ICJ & that will be that.

Personally, am content to wait for the verdict knowing that the ICJ in making it's determination as to whether 'territorial integrity' trumps 'self-determination, will have a preceding agreement before it in the form of UN resolution 1244.

Jason, why are you even dignifying Nool-whatever's statement with a reply?

“We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity and that it must be consonant with the relevant Security Council decisions. In that respect, we’ve reiterated that resolution 1244 affirms Serbia’s sovereignty over Kosovo and calls for substantial autonomy for the province within Serbia,“ the ambassador explained.

Let’s see closely the ambassadors statement:

1. “We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity....”

Simply IMPOSSIBLE! Typical statement where you use many words to say nothing.

So Kosova vs Serbia 1:0

2. “...that it must be consonant with the relevant Security Council decisions”
I say YES you say NO. So I should accept to be your hostage? NoWAY!
But let’s say Kosova vs Serbia 1:1

3. “...we’ve reiterated that resolution 1244 affirms Serbia’s sovereignty over Kosovo and calls for substantial autonomy for the province within Serbia”
I guess you should read more carefully the 1244 to which you refer.
- 1244 speaks about Yugoslavia and only in preamble (legally not binding)
- 1244 says that the final status of Kosova shall be solved through negotiations WITHOUT any PREJUDICE on outcome. 1244 does not say the final status will be determined via negotiations but independence is cannot be an outcome of those negotiations.
- I challenge you to find in 1244 the name of Serbia and moreover the part where calls on autonomy within Serbia (I guess in the best case it would’ve been Yugoslavia)

1244 was a compromise of Rambouye.

Serbs and their tutors Russians were threatening veto if there was not any reference to Yugoslavia even in preamble.

Albanians were asking that the resolution foresees the a popular referendum where people of Kosova will declare what they want.

Compromise was 1244:

- No referendum but final status will NOT be PREJUDICED.

- Yugoslavia will be mentioned only in legally non binding part of the resolution- in preamble.

All you need Mr ambassador is not to abuse with the 1244.

I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.

I really wonder how another court of UN will say well sentence doesn’t matter it is business as usual within the states sovereign actions and policies??? No way!!!

But hey it seems that the only thing that Lula liked and learned in his stay in Albania during the Communist regime was how to despise the human rights.

After the famous Laurent Kabila the shot dead president of Congo Lula is the second masterpiece of the school of law of Tirana during Enver Hoxha’s regime ;)) in Lulas case it was Radio Tirana ;)

it is funny,but keep in mind one thing president lulla has studied in albania,during hoxha regjim!

Brazil against the Kosova's independence. Brazil is entitled to its opnion and I am entitled to mine. To me Brazil is an irrelavant country on this issue but I still respect its opinion.

>>I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.>>

i've staked my reputation on it, will say "told you so," and will never cease demanding that the hypocritical bldg regime immediately recognize indpnt Kosovo/a, one day after the ruling. and each day after that.

the other side will claim US imperialism, and that their ethnically cleansed so-called republika srpska must become part of greater serbia. actually, they already are saying it.

i don't blame the other side for celebrating such "victories" just as we have celebrated over 60 victories. nor will i put down brazil and her lovely citizens. just say that the current govt there is wrong and short-sighted about this issue, and should revisit it soon. we are not the enemies of brazil!!

the blgd regime cannot recolonize Kosovo/a, thank god and Nato, but they can make our lives more difficult (my dear pals at b92 have made me an honourable kosovar, as the britts would write, and i take it as an honor and not as the slur it was intended to be.)

so the blgd regime will continue exactly w/ the milosevic policies (minus war, we hope) so long as the world allows and fosters it.

thank you, and thanks, ben, for yr time and wrk in articulating the good fight in very specific and concrete terms.

roberto
frisco

"If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova)."

Oh and i thought Kosovo was the poorest country in the world! Oh i forgot...Kosovo is not a country lol

The Principle of self-determination is International Law. Principles are at the helm of international law.

who cares about Brasli(poorest country in South AMerican).When I read some of comments,i was suprised,how Serbs didn't know nothink about geography.If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova).

All this discussion about nothing. The ICJ is going to issue a NON BINDING decision. If it says that the Kosovo independence was legal, Serbia, Russia and their allies will say that they don't care since the decision is not binding. If the decision says that Kosovo's independece is illegal, Kosovo, US, European countries and their allies will say that they don't care since the decision is not binding. So, regardless of the decision, everybody is going to do what they want (without breaking any law) in terms of recognizing or not Kosovo.

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.

it is funny,but keep in mind one thing president lulla has studied in albania,during hoxha regjim!

>>I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.>>

i've staked my reputation on it, will say "told you so," and will never cease demanding that the hypocritical bldg regime immediately recognize indpnt Kosovo/a, one day after the ruling. and each day after that.

the other side will claim US imperialism, and that their ethnically cleansed so-called republika srpska must become part of greater serbia. actually, they already are saying it.

i don't blame the other side for celebrating such "victories" just as we have celebrated over 60 victories. nor will i put down brazil and her lovely citizens. just say that the current govt there is wrong and short-sighted about this issue, and should revisit it soon. we are not the enemies of brazil!!

the blgd regime cannot recolonize Kosovo/a, thank god and Nato, but they can make our lives more difficult (my dear pals at b92 have made me an honourable kosovar, as the britts would write, and i take it as an honor and not as the slur it was intended to be.)

so the blgd regime will continue exactly w/ the milosevic policies (minus war, we hope) so long as the world allows and fosters it.

thank you, and thanks, ben, for yr time and wrk in articulating the good fight in very specific and concrete terms.

roberto
frisco

who cares about Brasli(poorest country in South AMerican).When I read some of comments,i was suprised,how Serbs didn't know nothink about geography.If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova).

“We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity and that it must be consonant with the relevant Security Council decisions. In that respect, we’ve reiterated that resolution 1244 affirms Serbia’s sovereignty over Kosovo and calls for substantial autonomy for the province within Serbia,“ the ambassador explained.

Let’s see closely the ambassadors statement:

1. “We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity....”

Simply IMPOSSIBLE! Typical statement where you use many words to say nothing.

So Kosova vs Serbia 1:0

2. “...that it must be consonant with the relevant Security Council decisions”
I say YES you say NO. So I should accept to be your hostage? NoWAY!
But let’s say Kosova vs Serbia 1:1

3. “...we’ve reiterated that resolution 1244 affirms Serbia’s sovereignty over Kosovo and calls for substantial autonomy for the province within Serbia”
I guess you should read more carefully the 1244 to which you refer.
- 1244 speaks about Yugoslavia and only in preamble (legally not binding)
- 1244 says that the final status of Kosova shall be solved through negotiations WITHOUT any PREJUDICE on outcome. 1244 does not say the final status will be determined via negotiations but independence is cannot be an outcome of those negotiations.
- I challenge you to find in 1244 the name of Serbia and moreover the part where calls on autonomy within Serbia (I guess in the best case it would’ve been Yugoslavia)

1244 was a compromise of Rambouye.

Serbs and their tutors Russians were threatening veto if there was not any reference to Yugoslavia even in preamble.

Albanians were asking that the resolution foresees the a popular referendum where people of Kosova will declare what they want.

Compromise was 1244:

- No referendum but final status will NOT be PREJUDICED.

- Yugoslavia will be mentioned only in legally non binding part of the resolution- in preamble.

All you need Mr ambassador is not to abuse with the 1244.

I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.

I really wonder how another court of UN will say well sentence doesn’t matter it is business as usual within the states sovereign actions and policies??? No way!!!

But hey it seems that the only thing that Lula liked and learned in his stay in Albania during the Communist regime was how to despise the human rights.

After the famous Laurent Kabila the shot dead president of Congo Lula is the second masterpiece of the school of law of Tirana during Enver Hoxha’s regime ;)) in Lulas case it was Radio Tirana ;)

Strong words from a big and powerful country. Hats off to the ambassador.

The world welcomes the non-biased opinion of the great nation of Brazil in the illegal unilateral declaration of independence by the temporary Albanian authorities in Kosovo - is that a sentence?

Muito Obrigado Brazil!!! Too bad your Portuguese cousins are not thinking as clearly and Portugal wonders why there is talk of the Azores separating!!

Brazil has taken a principled stance; Kosovo’s future lies only within a negotiated compromise with the rest of Serbia.

This is great news, Brazil has said that will never recognized Kosovo unless Serbia does, the U.S and West Europe could not convince us doing so, the Bush administration argument was too weak, as of today Brazil is in top 8 richest countries in World and according to the World Bank we have passed Russia, so it's good to see that Serbia has a big name supporting her! We don't need to sell coffee beans with GDP of 1,612,539 billions.

Brazil against the Kosova's independence. Brazil is entitled to its opnion and I am entitled to mine. To me Brazil is an irrelavant country on this issue but I still respect its opinion.

EA:
> Brazil against the Kosova's independence. Brazil is entitled to its opnion and I am entitled to mine.

Opinions will no doubt be treated equally at the ICJ.

ben:
> 1. “We also stated that the principle of self-determination must not run counter to the principle of territorial integrity....”
> Simply IMPOSSIBLE! Typical statement where you use many words to say nothing.
> So Kosova vs Serbia 1:0

Statement says that Brazil believes latter principle takes precedence over the former. Would have thought this was obvious. ben vs Brazil 0:1 ;)

> - 1244 speaks about Yugoslavia and only in preamble (legally not binding)

For a guy who is quibbling over the wording of statements, you're remarkably loose with yours. Presume you mean references to the 'territorial integrity of FRY'.

If so, you are wrong. Is also mentioned in BOTH annexes. In addition, the structure of the entire document implies autonomy within FRY & not independence. When making their determination, ICJ judges will no doubt take this into account.

> - 1244 says that the final status of Kosova shall be solved through negotiations WITHOUT any PREJUDICE on outcome.

Oh.. & just where does it say this?

> 1244 does not say the final status will be determined via negotiations but independence is cannot be an outcome of those negotiations.

1244 doesn't mention independence at all - once again because the basic assumption underlying entire document is for autonomy within FRY.

> - I challenge you to find in 1244 the name of Serbia and moreover the part where calls on autonomy within Serbia (I guess in the best case it would’ve been Yugoslavia)

The Republic of Serbia is the successor state to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - including as it pertains to UN SC resolution 1244.

Do you really think there would be so much fuss about 1244 now if it was that easy to invalidate it just because it refers to FRY & not Serbia?

Here's an excerpt from an EU brokered agreement back in 2002:

"In the event that Montenegro leaves the union of states, the international documents relating to the FRY, especially UN Security Council Resolution 1244, would relate in their entirety to Serbia as successor."

Here's the source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1874523.stm

As for autonomy, it's actually mentioned many times & the whole document is structured around the concept. But the most relevant bit is in the 2nd annex:

"8. A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions. "

> 1244 was a compromise of Rambouye.

"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form — Henry Kissinger, Daily Telegraph, 28 June 1999 "

"However, the British defence minister, Lord Gilbert, said in an inquiry by a House committee "I think the terms put to Milošević at Rambouillet were absolutely intolerable; how could he possibly accept them; it was quite deliberate". "

FRY refused to sign Rambouillet because it gave NATO carte-blanche over the whole territory of Yugoslavia.

Rambouillet was a farce. Nothing more, nothing less.

One of the reasons the FRY signed 1244 was because this authority was limited only to Kosovo.

> Serbs and their tutors Russians were threatening veto if there was not any reference to Yugoslavia even in preamble.
> Albanians were asking that the resolution foresees the a popular referendum where people of Kosova will declare what they want.

And in the end, we got 1244 in which resolution of the dispute hinged on 'negotiation between the parties' with substantial autonomy.

But certainly not an agreement in which one party can unilaterally decide to declare independence.

> I am absolutely sure that ICJ will NOT rule against the independence- otherwise it will have to declare as illegal the independence of all states since UN was established after the WW2 untill today- that is about 150 countries existence is illegal, to follow this logic.

Guess then that all you have to do is explain your 'logic' to the ICJ & that will be that.

Personally, am content to wait for the verdict knowing that the ICJ in making it's determination as to whether 'territorial integrity' trumps 'self-determination, will have a preceding agreement before it in the form of UN resolution 1244.

The Principle of self-determination is International Law. Principles are at the helm of international law.

Thank you Brazil!

Obrigado Brasil.

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.
(Kosova-USA, 4 September 2009 16:08)

I love these kind of comments because it underscores the ignorance behind them:)))

It seems like this Ambassador had nothing better to do. He should do more for his country to sell more caffee beans so people don't starv in Brazil.
(Kosova-USA, 4 September 2009 16:08)

Don't worry about Brazil selling anything. Worry about the poverty and corruption amongst your own people.

"it is funny,but keep in mind one thing president lulla has studied in albania,during hoxha regjim!"
(lili, 4 September 2009 18:05)

That explains it then.

All this discussion about nothing. The ICJ is going to issue a NON BINDING decision. If it says that the Kosovo independence was legal, Serbia, Russia and their allies will say that they don't care since the decision is not binding. If the decision says that Kosovo's independece is illegal, Kosovo, US, European countries and their allies will say that they don't care since the decision is not binding. So, regardless of the decision, everybody is going to do what they want (without breaking any law) in terms of recognizing or not Kosovo.

Mrs/Mr USA Kosovo, is not up to date on the world's economy, obviously. Brazil is in the top ten of economic powers. This is just sour apples posting by a disgruntled Albanian, that sees the world's backing for their illegal quest for stealing land slipping away. Brazil knows that Kosovo is Serbia!

"selling more coffe-beans"???

hey, Kosovo-usa, haven´t you realized yet, what kind of development Brazil has shown over the past decades???

given that you are posting comments like that one, I have strong doubts that you live in the US, since there even the poorest low-levelworking-class kid has at least a little bit of knowledge about Brazil.

as for the article:
compliments to their principled stand, they are just proving to be sovereign.

a strong and quite important supporter, indeed.

who cares about Brasli(poorest country in South AMerican).When I read some of comments,i was suprised,how Serbs didn't know nothink about geography.If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova).
(NoolaV!, 5 September 2009 12:16)

Where did you learn these incorrect "facts?" One of the so-called universities or private schools in Kosovo that hand out degrees?

Don't you love Evolution. A "Request" for an advisory opinion has now evolved into a resolution "Ordered" the ICJ to give an advisory opinion.

Brazil is a big and beautiful country with as much land as the US and a population of close to 200 million.It is an economic powerhouse and very close to acquiring a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.Brazil comprises more than half the continent of South America in both land area and population and any person who does not understand the significance of this country should educate himself.Not to even mention the beautiful women and the soccer gifts that Brazil has given to the world.

"If you read a international geography ,you will know that Brasil is one of the poorest countries in world(like Moldova)."

Oh and i thought Kosovo was the poorest country in the world! Oh i forgot...Kosovo is not a country lol

Jason, why are you even dignifying Nool-whatever's statement with a reply?