PM in Poland for WW2 commemorations

At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 12:04)

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.

Niall,
Albanians, Croats and Bosnian muslims have historically been on the wrong side. Nothing changes and history is just repeating itself. Serbia will prevail once again.
Cheers!

I love these comments by posters such as "GB".

By insinuating that the Serbian Chetniks were linked with the Nazis, they seek to either deflect attention away from their own affiliations with fascism or to group the noble Serbian resistance with their own callous deeds during the war. A kind of "see. . .we were all bad!" attempt.

Nice try. . .but sell your crazy somewhere else.

The only people that believed that the Chetniks were allied with the Nazis were the communists and Croatian/Albanian/Bosnian Muslim fascists.

Besides would the German architects of WWII:

* offer 100,000 Reich Marks in gold for the capture of Mihailovic dead or alive on July 23, 1943. . .if her were a Nazi

or how about your beloved Americans, would they:

* posthumously award Mihajlovic with the prestigous Legion of Merit (presented to his daughter in 2005. . .if he were a Nazi?

Now answer me these questions. . .

Did Pavelic have a bounty on his head from the Nazis?

Did the SS Skanderbeg or Handschar divisions receive medals from the US for their role in WWII?

Whose the revisionist now?

David,

First, the Serbian nation during WWI numbered less than 5 million and sacrificed over 20% of its population for the Allied cause. Moreover, the historic consensus is that had the Serbs not valiantly risen up against the Nazis and thus forced the delay of Germany's Operation Barbarossa against Russia to the fall from the spring (the Nazis were unprepared for Russia's bitter winter which aided in the victory), then the Allies would not have ultimately prevailed and you would be writing your drivel in German!

Secondly, unlike the Germans that were forced to atone for their barbaric crimes, their Croatian, Albanian and Bosnian muslim allies were not. In fact - as you can see from some of their comments - they actually think that their Nazi grand-daddies didn't do anything wrong. Moreover, they are claiming that my people - 100's of thousands of which were murdered, raped, tortured, massacred by Nazis - were Nazis?!?

Now how is that not subject to an argument from a Serb?

But I can't really blame them David (they are small and insignificant and only when they latch onto the imperialist du jour, are they a threat). . .I blame American or British or 'whatever you are' governments - the imperialists/colonialists/war-mongers that need these junkyards dogs for their own geopolitical purposes.

But then weren't the mujahideen/al-quiada in Afghanistan your allies at one point?

How did that work out for you?

In the future, be a little more thoughtful when choosing allies. Because once an islamic fundamentalist, always an islamic fundamentalist.

And once a nazi, always a nazi. . .

@@@ by David Wright

"...Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Its amusing because the role of Albanians/Serbians was insignificant compared to the many other involved countries (America, Russia, Germany, etc.). I read these message boards when the subject of World War II comes up (which is suprisingly/pathetically often) and you all make it seem like the actions of Albanians or Serbians helped decide the outcome. I am not trying to diminish the loss of lives or the bravery of a few; but it really doesnt matter what side either of you were on because America/Russia/England would have ultimately prevailed nonetheless.

BTW is it April's Fools Day or did I actually read that Tadic attended the anniversary of the Libyan Revolution!?!?!? Is he really that politically tone deaf?!!?
(David Wright, 1 September 2009 16:55)..."


Answer: Well, it is both pathetic and indicational to conclude how your knowledge of WWII is limited and one-western-sided.

For your clear information WWII in Europe was won clearly by Soviet Union, based on the fact that 80% of German and Nazi troops were facing and fighting Soviets on the Eastern Fronts from the year 1942 on and British managed only to land with their Allies on European soil with D-Day, on the June 6th 1944, and then furthermore managed only to loose decisive battle against the Germans called "Market garden", in the autumn of 1944, which kept them on militarily irrelevant Dutch and Belgium soil till the January, February 1945. When they finally crossed, with US troops, river Rhine to Germany, in January 1945, they reached no resistance of Germans who knew well that the War is lost to the Soviets....and so on.
So apart of resilience in the words by Churchill, British have done almost to nothing comparing with Soviets and Slavic Nations like Pols, Czechs, Serbs to bring the end of WWII in Europe...
Only by mentioning the numbers of the victims Slavic Nations have had, included Serbian 1 million, British role in the Battle of Europe is irrelevant.
Of course, in your Westerners historic books it is all pictured to suite Western historic fancy, but very, very, very much far away of any historical based logic and sense.
So long for the WWII history which I could be able to elaborate for you in 1001 pages and back.

Concerning Libya, you should be in the possession of an active recent memory to recall that USA and Brits were the one to run first to shake the hand with Gaddafi and grab, of course, the Libyan oil resources after their mutual "dirty Lockarbie deal". Just another Justice rape by US and CIA which managed, on that way, to hide that behind the Lockarbie actually stood Iran, PLO and Jordan and not Libya and Al Megrahi, but they needed Iran and Jordan, at that time, because of the First Golf War. Ever heard for that in your "free" Western media?

Concerning Serbia and Libya, via Yugoslavia we have had long and friendly relation with Libyans, so I see no reason that we should not be continuing that useful contact.
If the USA and British can soak their oil out, earn money on them and still kinda hypocritically criticizing them with no real intentions, we Serbians certainly should not be having any moral problems with our contact with Libyans.

@@@ by kosovo-usa...however pathetic this may sound

"...At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 12:04)..."

Answer: For your info, this commemoration is to be attended on the Prime Ministerial level, so Cvetkovic is the one invited!

And as usual "faithfully yours"...hehe...British and USA broke the protocol by sending retrospectively British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and US, nothing more, then ex- Defense Minister.

So before you decide to address us with your "thinkings" get your information source straight!!!

David Wright:
> Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Not much of an argument when is patently obvious to most that Serbia was part of the Alliance & Albania was part of the Axis.

And personally don't recall seeing any albanians marching on ANZAC day here in Australia (commemorating Australia & New Zealands participation in WWI & WWII & later), just aussies, yanks, poms, poles, & oh yes, chetniks.

And is indeed sad & amusing if you think that the outcome of that war was a given just because the germans were fighting against against the russians, british & americans.

Turning point of the war was the end of 41 when the germans reached the outskirts of Moscow but were stopped & reversed by the russian winter. Had they had more time in that year, Moscow would've fallen & with it, Russia.

And without the russian front to worry about, the brits really would have found themselves 'fighting on their beaches'.

Is a fact that 'Barbarossa' was originally scheduled for May 15th but was delayed for 5 weeks due to the ineptitude of the italians against the greeks.

And is also a fact that had the germans not invaded Yugoslavia on April 6th, they would've had even more time.

By their very act of resistance, the serbs denied them this.

Hardly what I'd call 'insignificant'.

So suggest you study the history of WWII first before attempting to comment on it. Who knows, you just might learn something.


szemi:
'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.

Historical revisionism is denying that the Albanians were part of the Nazi pact along with the Italians and Austrians. but Albanians are trying toput the propaganda machine into overdrive to try to somehow prove they were on the side of justice in WWII. How do you explain the Albanian SS and other nazi style units if that were truly the case?

I assume Niall did not see the movie about that particular battle, which is based on true story.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 15:45)

Hollywood fairy tales and propaganda movies are far cry from real history.So much about being based on true story.But of course for some especially albanians and americans and others who are brought up in pseudoentelectuel chewing gum cultural background hollywood movies may seem like true source of events.

David,

This is the fundamental problem that I have with you Westerners.

Sitting on your high horse and pointing fingers at me following +15 years of being fed complete and utter propoganda by your governments.

David, you heard/read/watched what your state department wanted you to.

Your media is a tool for your global expansionism.

Let me give you a little lesson. . .

The Anglo-governments simply wanted a logistical presence in the Balkans to further encrouch on Russia's sphere of influence. Serbia - as the Yugoslav pillar - is a traditional Russian ally.

As a result, Serbia - as the Russian proxy - needed to be weakened.

You people don't care on bit about Croatians or Albanians or any other "ians". . .you have interests, not friends.

Milosevic - for all his faults - simply attempted to preserve the Yugoslav federation against seccessionist states. He failed because your governments wanted it destroyed.

Correct me if I'm wrong. . .didn't the U.S. have some problems with break-away states a while back? And wasn't that civil war as bloody?

So you have a problem with me calling some people Nazis?

Let me ask you then. . .do you have a problem when:

* no apology or reparations were made for the murder of over 600,000 Serbs in Jasenovac but then tens of thousands of people pour into a stadium in Zagreb to listen to a musician that turns into a "zieg heil" and "death to Serbs" orgy?
* or streets being named after the most vile criminals in WWII?
* how about when over a hundred churches - most older than your country - are burned to the ground in an effort to eradicate all traces of Serb influence similar to what occured under Nazi oversight in WWII?

And is also a fact that had the germans not invaded Yugoslavia on April 6th, they would've had even more time.

By their very act of resistance, the serbs denied them this.

Hardly what I'd call 'insignificant'.

So suggest you study the history of WWII first before attempting to comment on it. Who knows, you just might learn something.


szemi:
'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.
(peter, sydney, 1 September 2009 19:14)

Peter,

It is no mystery whatsoever that it was the Serbian people who provided the bulwark in the antifascist struggle in WW2. They sustained great losses and sacrificed many of their compatriots in the good fight. Many of them were in Tito's Partizans whom I had the pleasure to meet some in my travels to Serbia. All proud yet brave menwho sacrificed everyhing to free Yugoslavia from the fascist menace and there native collaborators - Ustasa, Handzhar and Skenderbeg thugs.

It is also true that the Yugoslav resistance (heavily dominated by Serbs) held up 11 SS divisions during the crucial period in the build up and after the invasion of the USSR (1941-late '42) when Berlin had to divert much needed resources from the Eastern Front to keep the Cetniks and Partizans in check.

and as for some of or irridentist Albanian friends who name their streets after members of the Balli Kombater, at least acknowledge your wrongs of the past.

David Wright, Serbs were victims in 90s! Remember NATO agression 1999, Croat ethnic cleansing of Krajina supported by west and serbian suffering in Bosna?

My God people, the outbreak of World War II does NOT revolve around the Albanians.

David,

In a chess game it is quite often not the queen or rook which decides the game but the pawn.The same applies to wars and battles.History is full of small nations contributing more to certain historic events than the big ones.As Imbru mentioned scotts,irish ans welsh are good example and greek and serbs fall into the same category but I could also mention the 1956 events in Hungary which led to the first cracks in the massive wall of communism .Well British Empire became really big and strong since the beggining of 18th century when they had scottish fighters among their ranks.What a strong match-up were the highlanders for the coosacks during the crimean war for example.(It is also worth checking how the scotts are overrepresented among succesfull british sportsmen and inventors) I know america likes and belivies only in big things
(cars,food portions,chest-size etc.) but trust me small can also be very effective.

David Wright, that is quite possibly the most arrogant post I have seen on B92 – quite something given that many posters have been involved in a war that is only recent history, so well done!

Not only have you managed to offend and belittle just about every country other than those you mention but you have managed to offend the Scottish, Irish and Welsh who all fought in the war for the United Kingdom probably in disproportionate number to the English.

As for Tadic in Libya, why not? Of course they have a questionable past but I am waiting for you to tell me your country so that I can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency in criticizing Serbia.

Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Its amusing because the role of Albanians/Serbians was insignificant compared to the many other involved countries (America, Russia, Germany, etc.). I read these message boards when the subject of World War II comes up (which is suprisingly/pathetically often) and you all make it seem like the actions of Albanians or Serbians helped decide the outcome. I am not trying to diminish the loss of lives or the bravery of a few; but it really doesnt matter what side either of you were on because America/Russia/England would have ultimately prevailed nonetheless.

BTW is it April's Fools Day or did I actually read that Tadic attended the anniversary of the Libyan Revolution!?!?!? Is he really that politically tone deaf?!!?

'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.
(peter, sydney, 1 September 2009 19:14)

More exactly albanian since we all know that every significant greek has albanian(illiran?)roots.

@ Nemanja & dean van der serbia

- I have no desire to argue about World War 2 with either of you. It is clear that you are both proud of the contributions your countrymen made and I can respect that. We can agree to disagree.

I do have an issue when you say something like "once a Nazi always a Nazi"! What an absurd statement! Would you appreciate it if you as a Serb were forever linked to the actions of Milosevic & co.? Serbia has taken many steps to distance itself from actions of ten years ago and has moved on. When you say "once a Nazi always a Nazi" it is the same Serb's should forever be portrayed as they were in the 1990's? How can we expect reconcilliation between the poeple of the Balkans if we are still arguing over Nazi's/WW2/?!?!?!?

@ Dean van der serbia -

I am not saying that Serbia should cut ties with Libya. I understand the need for strategic relationships and am fully aware of the United States hypocrisy. I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives...

" and ALL who made it to albania proper were saved. "

Really?

Nemanja
I wonder why everybody talks only of the Albanians on the other side ? What about Enver Pasha to free the country ? With my firm alibi of a radical in Kosovo matters I still believe the truth must be told. Too much of revisionism do we have today !

David Wright
You cannot say that Serbia’s role was insignificant ! Because in 1941 there was time that they were the only resisting nation to the Axis ! Because their combat losses were third after the USSR &USA. Because during 4 years they have kept from 300 000 to 800 000 troops of the Axis. Because they have captured 5 Italian divisions . Because they have set free 90% of their soil by themselves. Because only 8000 Soviets were killed in Yugo … Because their partisans were the only ones to fight as good as the Soviet ones. Because they fought much longer than France , USA , UK or even the USSR. Longer than anyone else ! Their Chetniks rebelled when nobody dared to ! I would even say that it was Stalin who has joined Michailovich in June of 1941 …

To our Polish and Russian posters:

Please keep your comments respectful of the person you are addressing. At this point we are still editing them.

Regards,


B92
(B92, 2 September 2009 13:25)

Dear B92,

I think those russians are rather Stalin loving georgians .My life experience is that most real russians do not share their passion for Stalin especially not those who had some family members taken to Gulag.

"I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives...
(David Wright, 1 September 2009 19:54)"

Recent controversy? I doubt it has anything to do with that. In any event, if it were to do with that, which it is not, then I would applaud Mr Tadic's support of the proper, ethical and morally correct decision of us Scots to let a man go and die a painful death with his loved ones . Go bay for blood elsewhere.

people of each major nationality fought on each of every side in the balkans during that war. that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

thank you.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 1 September 2009 21:48)

that's a half-truth. nazis did exist in pretty much every country in europe back then, but not in every country did they have significant support. in some countries they were able to come to power on their own. in some other countries they were able to come to power with support from other fascist countries but were able to sustain themselves then easily because they didn't face much resistance. and in some other countries fascist government were installed by german nazis, but were able to stay in charge only thanks to the military support from germany because of significant resistance of their own people. serbia is one of them.

that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

thank you
malcolm x
not from frisco

David,

With all due respect, most Americans use the internet to:

* buy products
* trade stocks
* download porn

Seeking balanced news reports at antiwar.com is certainly not a priority.

Let's be frank, most Americans get their "news" from either the press or through tv.

Both the conservative Wall Street Journal and the liberal rag New York Times are enthusiastic cheerleaders for U.S. military misadventures overseas.

And it gets worse. . .

During the Kosovo war, CNN employed military psychological warfare specialists from airmobile Fourth Psychological Operations Group, stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. One of the main tasks of this group of almost 1200 soldiers and officers is to spread 'selected information'.

As Major Thomas Collins, of the U.S. Army Information Service acknowledged:

"Psyops personnel, soldiers and officers, have been working in CNN's headquarters in Atlanta through our programme 'Training With Industry'. They worked as regular employees of CNN. Conceivably, they would have worked on stories during the Kosovo war. They helped in the production of news."

David, you had the military "developing" news for your consumption. The military!?!

Even Joseph Goebbels would have been impressed by this!

Most people wanted Yugoslavia destroyed? That's not true.

I didn't. Most Serbs didn't. Why would we want to destroy something that we basically created (despite being conceptually faulty)?

David says ...Is he (tadic) really that politically tone deaf?!!? I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives..."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/07/09/obama_shakes_hands_with_gaddaf.html

"As Obama was shaking hands with Gaddafi, families of Pan Am 103 victims were gathered at the British Embassy in Washington and the British consulate in New York, speaking via video conference with Kenneth MacAskill, the Scottish justice secretary, and pleading that the convicted Lockerbie bomber not be returned to Libya."

Obama seems to have a hearing deficit.

That roberto says to you "in essence i agree w/yr point" is predictable and rather old.

Luigi - Rote Kapelle probably think about divisions captured in September 1943:
- part of 1st Alpine Division Taurinense
- 19 Infantry Division Venezia
- part of 41 Infantry Division Firenze
and maybe units from some other divisions.

How does the saying go?

"The first victims of war are morality and truth".

I don't think everybody here should get too involved in these discussions, since none of us were there and can tell for ourselves exactly what happened.

History is written, rewritten and manipulated. Sad but true. We should rather remember the victims.

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.
(Niall O'Doherty, 1 September 2009 14:09)

Historical revisionism. we all know who participated on what side in battle of Neretva. one example of many.

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.
(Niall O'Doherty, 1 September 2009 14:09)

Historical revisionism. we all know who participated on what side in battle of Neretva. one example of many.
(GB, 1 September 2009 15:06)


I assume Niall did not see the movie about that particular battle, which is based on true story.

At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.

Niall O'Doherty:
"It is also true that the Yugoslav resistance (heavily dominated by Serbs) held up 11 SS divisions during the crucial period in the build up and after the invasion of the USSR (1941-late '42) when Berlin had to divert much needed resources from the Eastern Front to keep the Cetniks and Partizans in check."

Tying up those divisions was a factor, but most of them were infantry, and the germans had over a hundred of those for Barbarossa. There were a couple of armoured divisions that couldn't be refitted in time for the June invasion that would've have come in handy, but once again, not critical.

Critical factor was time & critical time was late summer of 41 when russians were reeling.

Main problem germans had was resupplying & bringing up reinforcements & replacements. Roads in russia were inadequate for this so main line of supply had to be the rail lines, & russian rail gauge was wider than european standard.

And it takes time to convert the track.

"Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side."


albania was compensated by germany and italy for its occupation,
As france england australia and new zeland were the first ones to declare war on the axis, there is a great deal of documantation that greatly contradicts your "alternative view", wich is a daily propaganda, only sponsored by serb "history".
france britain australia and new zeland are proudly on the right side again.

>>Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years...

david -- i don't personally find a lot of "amusing" things here, esp.ly about ww2, but in essence i agree w/yr point. and would like to point out that if you conflict w/the usual suspects, esp.ly about ww2, you will either be censored or attacked, big time.

the main prblem is that people continue to spread half-truths and lies about ww2 and the balkans.

people of each major nationality fought on each of every side in the balkans during that war. that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

it is also well known by historians that the chetniks committed atrocities ag. thousands of civilians in the region. in NO way were they "OUR" allies.

the partisans consisted of all ethnicities and provided the main opposition to hitler and the fascists in the balkans. it was probably the only force there that included jews (and didn't kill them.)

in each area civil war raged, actual civil war, though it took different forms and involved different personalities. i cannot write the whole history of the war here.

members of each nationality suffered miserably -- serbs under ustashe rule in particular, (certain)croats and muslims from ustashe and chetniks, many sides fr the civil war in albania. it is extremely complicated, much has been written, but probably not the best historiography, in english.

jews were murdered throughout the balkans saved by a few, and all who made it to albania proper were saved.

i understand why ww2 is still so emotional w people, because it is also so for myslef and my people, jews. but i am sick of the lack of good info, the lies and misrepresentations.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

@Rote Kapella
how many Italian divisions did the Serbs captur??
But where do you take all this information? Please tell me..

"Sitting on your high horse and pointing fingers at me following +15 years of being fed complete and utter propoganda by your governments.

David, you heard/read/watched what your state department wanted you to."

That's just not true. The internet allows anyone to obtain information from a variety of sources. I believe in American exceptionalism as much as you believe in Serbian exceptionalism. I am also aware that America acts in its own interest and that may offend some people. But that can be said about any nation. Unfortunately the U.S. catches the most flak for it due to our status as the World's lone superpower...

"Milosevic - for all his faults - simply attempted to preserve the Yugoslav federation against seccessionist states. He failed because your governments wanted it destroyed."

Everyone wanted it destroyed (including Milosevic!), not just America...

To our Polish and Russian posters:

Please keep your comments respectful of the person you are addressing. At this point we are still editing them.

Regards,


B92

David Wright,

If you believe with the whole of your heart that your country is right to implement their foreign policy as they do then I really do pity you.

RIP all those innocent souls destroyed by "US interests".

At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.
(Niall O'Doherty, 1 September 2009 14:09)

Historical revisionism. we all know who participated on what side in battle of Neretva. one example of many.

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.
(Niall O'Doherty, 1 September 2009 14:09)

Historical revisionism. we all know who participated on what side in battle of Neretva. one example of many.
(GB, 1 September 2009 15:06)


I assume Niall did not see the movie about that particular battle, which is based on true story.

Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Its amusing because the role of Albanians/Serbians was insignificant compared to the many other involved countries (America, Russia, Germany, etc.). I read these message boards when the subject of World War II comes up (which is suprisingly/pathetically often) and you all make it seem like the actions of Albanians or Serbians helped decide the outcome. I am not trying to diminish the loss of lives or the bravery of a few; but it really doesnt matter what side either of you were on because America/Russia/England would have ultimately prevailed nonetheless.

BTW is it April's Fools Day or did I actually read that Tadic attended the anniversary of the Libyan Revolution!?!?!? Is he really that politically tone deaf?!!?

>>Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years...

david -- i don't personally find a lot of "amusing" things here, esp.ly about ww2, but in essence i agree w/yr point. and would like to point out that if you conflict w/the usual suspects, esp.ly about ww2, you will either be censored or attacked, big time.

the main prblem is that people continue to spread half-truths and lies about ww2 and the balkans.

people of each major nationality fought on each of every side in the balkans during that war. that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

it is also well known by historians that the chetniks committed atrocities ag. thousands of civilians in the region. in NO way were they "OUR" allies.

the partisans consisted of all ethnicities and provided the main opposition to hitler and the fascists in the balkans. it was probably the only force there that included jews (and didn't kill them.)

in each area civil war raged, actual civil war, though it took different forms and involved different personalities. i cannot write the whole history of the war here.

members of each nationality suffered miserably -- serbs under ustashe rule in particular, (certain)croats and muslims from ustashe and chetniks, many sides fr the civil war in albania. it is extremely complicated, much has been written, but probably not the best historiography, in english.

jews were murdered throughout the balkans saved by a few, and all who made it to albania proper were saved.

i understand why ww2 is still so emotional w people, because it is also so for myslef and my people, jews. but i am sick of the lack of good info, the lies and misrepresentations.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

"Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side."


albania was compensated by germany and italy for its occupation,
As france england australia and new zeland were the first ones to declare war on the axis, there is a great deal of documantation that greatly contradicts your "alternative view", wich is a daily propaganda, only sponsored by serb "history".
france britain australia and new zeland are proudly on the right side again.

@ Nemanja & dean van der serbia

- I have no desire to argue about World War 2 with either of you. It is clear that you are both proud of the contributions your countrymen made and I can respect that. We can agree to disagree.

I do have an issue when you say something like "once a Nazi always a Nazi"! What an absurd statement! Would you appreciate it if you as a Serb were forever linked to the actions of Milosevic & co.? Serbia has taken many steps to distance itself from actions of ten years ago and has moved on. When you say "once a Nazi always a Nazi" it is the same Serb's should forever be portrayed as they were in the 1990's? How can we expect reconcilliation between the poeple of the Balkans if we are still arguing over Nazi's/WW2/?!?!?!?

@ Dean van der serbia -

I am not saying that Serbia should cut ties with Libya. I understand the need for strategic relationships and am fully aware of the United States hypocrisy. I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives...

"Sitting on your high horse and pointing fingers at me following +15 years of being fed complete and utter propoganda by your governments.

David, you heard/read/watched what your state department wanted you to."

That's just not true. The internet allows anyone to obtain information from a variety of sources. I believe in American exceptionalism as much as you believe in Serbian exceptionalism. I am also aware that America acts in its own interest and that may offend some people. But that can be said about any nation. Unfortunately the U.S. catches the most flak for it due to our status as the World's lone superpower...

"Milosevic - for all his faults - simply attempted to preserve the Yugoslav federation against seccessionist states. He failed because your governments wanted it destroyed."

Everyone wanted it destroyed (including Milosevic!), not just America...

David,

First, the Serbian nation during WWI numbered less than 5 million and sacrificed over 20% of its population for the Allied cause. Moreover, the historic consensus is that had the Serbs not valiantly risen up against the Nazis and thus forced the delay of Germany's Operation Barbarossa against Russia to the fall from the spring (the Nazis were unprepared for Russia's bitter winter which aided in the victory), then the Allies would not have ultimately prevailed and you would be writing your drivel in German!

Secondly, unlike the Germans that were forced to atone for their barbaric crimes, their Croatian, Albanian and Bosnian muslim allies were not. In fact - as you can see from some of their comments - they actually think that their Nazi grand-daddies didn't do anything wrong. Moreover, they are claiming that my people - 100's of thousands of which were murdered, raped, tortured, massacred by Nazis - were Nazis?!?

Now how is that not subject to an argument from a Serb?

But I can't really blame them David (they are small and insignificant and only when they latch onto the imperialist du jour, are they a threat). . .I blame American or British or 'whatever you are' governments - the imperialists/colonialists/war-mongers that need these junkyards dogs for their own geopolitical purposes.

But then weren't the mujahideen/al-quiada in Afghanistan your allies at one point?

How did that work out for you?

In the future, be a little more thoughtful when choosing allies. Because once an islamic fundamentalist, always an islamic fundamentalist.

And once a nazi, always a nazi. . .

Niall,
Albanians, Croats and Bosnian muslims have historically been on the wrong side. Nothing changes and history is just repeating itself. Serbia will prevail once again.
Cheers!

At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 12:04)

Well at least Belgrade fought on the right side in WW2 unlike you lot who were more than willing accomplices of the fascist agenda and in doing so once again backed the wrong side.

I love these comments by posters such as "GB".

By insinuating that the Serbian Chetniks were linked with the Nazis, they seek to either deflect attention away from their own affiliations with fascism or to group the noble Serbian resistance with their own callous deeds during the war. A kind of "see. . .we were all bad!" attempt.

Nice try. . .but sell your crazy somewhere else.

The only people that believed that the Chetniks were allied with the Nazis were the communists and Croatian/Albanian/Bosnian Muslim fascists.

Besides would the German architects of WWII:

* offer 100,000 Reich Marks in gold for the capture of Mihailovic dead or alive on July 23, 1943. . .if her were a Nazi

or how about your beloved Americans, would they:

* posthumously award Mihajlovic with the prestigous Legion of Merit (presented to his daughter in 2005. . .if he were a Nazi?

Now answer me these questions. . .

Did Pavelic have a bounty on his head from the Nazis?

Did the SS Skanderbeg or Handschar divisions receive medals from the US for their role in WWII?

Whose the revisionist now?

@@@ by David Wright

"...Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Its amusing because the role of Albanians/Serbians was insignificant compared to the many other involved countries (America, Russia, Germany, etc.). I read these message boards when the subject of World War II comes up (which is suprisingly/pathetically often) and you all make it seem like the actions of Albanians or Serbians helped decide the outcome. I am not trying to diminish the loss of lives or the bravery of a few; but it really doesnt matter what side either of you were on because America/Russia/England would have ultimately prevailed nonetheless.

BTW is it April's Fools Day or did I actually read that Tadic attended the anniversary of the Libyan Revolution!?!?!? Is he really that politically tone deaf?!!?
(David Wright, 1 September 2009 16:55)..."


Answer: Well, it is both pathetic and indicational to conclude how your knowledge of WWII is limited and one-western-sided.

For your clear information WWII in Europe was won clearly by Soviet Union, based on the fact that 80% of German and Nazi troops were facing and fighting Soviets on the Eastern Fronts from the year 1942 on and British managed only to land with their Allies on European soil with D-Day, on the June 6th 1944, and then furthermore managed only to loose decisive battle against the Germans called "Market garden", in the autumn of 1944, which kept them on militarily irrelevant Dutch and Belgium soil till the January, February 1945. When they finally crossed, with US troops, river Rhine to Germany, in January 1945, they reached no resistance of Germans who knew well that the War is lost to the Soviets....and so on.
So apart of resilience in the words by Churchill, British have done almost to nothing comparing with Soviets and Slavic Nations like Pols, Czechs, Serbs to bring the end of WWII in Europe...
Only by mentioning the numbers of the victims Slavic Nations have had, included Serbian 1 million, British role in the Battle of Europe is irrelevant.
Of course, in your Westerners historic books it is all pictured to suite Western historic fancy, but very, very, very much far away of any historical based logic and sense.
So long for the WWII history which I could be able to elaborate for you in 1001 pages and back.

Concerning Libya, you should be in the possession of an active recent memory to recall that USA and Brits were the one to run first to shake the hand with Gaddafi and grab, of course, the Libyan oil resources after their mutual "dirty Lockarbie deal". Just another Justice rape by US and CIA which managed, on that way, to hide that behind the Lockarbie actually stood Iran, PLO and Jordan and not Libya and Al Megrahi, but they needed Iran and Jordan, at that time, because of the First Golf War. Ever heard for that in your "free" Western media?

Concerning Serbia and Libya, via Yugoslavia we have had long and friendly relation with Libyans, so I see no reason that we should not be continuing that useful contact.
If the USA and British can soak their oil out, earn money on them and still kinda hypocritically criticizing them with no real intentions, we Serbians certainly should not be having any moral problems with our contact with Libyans.

David Wright, that is quite possibly the most arrogant post I have seen on B92 – quite something given that many posters have been involved in a war that is only recent history, so well done!

Not only have you managed to offend and belittle just about every country other than those you mention but you have managed to offend the Scottish, Irish and Welsh who all fought in the war for the United Kingdom probably in disproportionate number to the English.

As for Tadic in Libya, why not? Of course they have a questionable past but I am waiting for you to tell me your country so that I can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency in criticizing Serbia.

David Wright:
> Its both amusing and sad to read you guys argue over a war thats been over for sixty years.

Not much of an argument when is patently obvious to most that Serbia was part of the Alliance & Albania was part of the Axis.

And personally don't recall seeing any albanians marching on ANZAC day here in Australia (commemorating Australia & New Zealands participation in WWI & WWII & later), just aussies, yanks, poms, poles, & oh yes, chetniks.

And is indeed sad & amusing if you think that the outcome of that war was a given just because the germans were fighting against against the russians, british & americans.

Turning point of the war was the end of 41 when the germans reached the outskirts of Moscow but were stopped & reversed by the russian winter. Had they had more time in that year, Moscow would've fallen & with it, Russia.

And without the russian front to worry about, the brits really would have found themselves 'fighting on their beaches'.

Is a fact that 'Barbarossa' was originally scheduled for May 15th but was delayed for 5 weeks due to the ineptitude of the italians against the greeks.

And is also a fact that had the germans not invaded Yugoslavia on April 6th, they would've had even more time.

By their very act of resistance, the serbs denied them this.

Hardly what I'd call 'insignificant'.

So suggest you study the history of WWII first before attempting to comment on it. Who knows, you just might learn something.


szemi:
'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.

'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.
(peter, sydney, 1 September 2009 19:14)

More exactly albanian since we all know that every significant greek has albanian(illiran?)roots.

I assume Niall did not see the movie about that particular battle, which is based on true story.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 15:45)

Hollywood fairy tales and propaganda movies are far cry from real history.So much about being based on true story.But of course for some especially albanians and americans and others who are brought up in pseudoentelectuel chewing gum cultural background hollywood movies may seem like true source of events.

David Wright, Serbs were victims in 90s! Remember NATO agression 1999, Croat ethnic cleansing of Krajina supported by west and serbian suffering in Bosna?

@@@ by kosovo-usa...however pathetic this may sound

"...At least this PM is attending the right ceremony, unlike his President.
(Kosova-USA, 1 September 2009 12:04)..."

Answer: For your info, this commemoration is to be attended on the Prime Ministerial level, so Cvetkovic is the one invited!

And as usual "faithfully yours"...hehe...British and USA broke the protocol by sending retrospectively British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and US, nothing more, then ex- Defense Minister.

So before you decide to address us with your "thinkings" get your information source straight!!!

My God people, the outbreak of World War II does NOT revolve around the Albanians.

David,

This is the fundamental problem that I have with you Westerners.

Sitting on your high horse and pointing fingers at me following +15 years of being fed complete and utter propoganda by your governments.

David, you heard/read/watched what your state department wanted you to.

Your media is a tool for your global expansionism.

Let me give you a little lesson. . .

The Anglo-governments simply wanted a logistical presence in the Balkans to further encrouch on Russia's sphere of influence. Serbia - as the Yugoslav pillar - is a traditional Russian ally.

As a result, Serbia - as the Russian proxy - needed to be weakened.

You people don't care on bit about Croatians or Albanians or any other "ians". . .you have interests, not friends.

Milosevic - for all his faults - simply attempted to preserve the Yugoslav federation against seccessionist states. He failed because your governments wanted it destroyed.

Correct me if I'm wrong. . .didn't the U.S. have some problems with break-away states a while back? And wasn't that civil war as bloody?

So you have a problem with me calling some people Nazis?

Let me ask you then. . .do you have a problem when:

* no apology or reparations were made for the murder of over 600,000 Serbs in Jasenovac but then tens of thousands of people pour into a stadium in Zagreb to listen to a musician that turns into a "zieg heil" and "death to Serbs" orgy?
* or streets being named after the most vile criminals in WWII?
* how about when over a hundred churches - most older than your country - are burned to the ground in an effort to eradicate all traces of Serb influence similar to what occured under Nazi oversight in WWII?

To our Polish and Russian posters:

Please keep your comments respectful of the person you are addressing. At this point we are still editing them.

Regards,


B92

To our Polish and Russian posters:

Please keep your comments respectful of the person you are addressing. At this point we are still editing them.

Regards,


B92
(B92, 2 September 2009 13:25)

Dear B92,

I think those russians are rather Stalin loving georgians .My life experience is that most real russians do not share their passion for Stalin especially not those who had some family members taken to Gulag.

Historical revisionism is denying that the Albanians were part of the Nazi pact along with the Italians and Austrians. but Albanians are trying toput the propaganda machine into overdrive to try to somehow prove they were on the side of justice in WWII. How do you explain the Albanian SS and other nazi style units if that were truly the case?

David,

In a chess game it is quite often not the queen or rook which decides the game but the pawn.The same applies to wars and battles.History is full of small nations contributing more to certain historic events than the big ones.As Imbru mentioned scotts,irish ans welsh are good example and greek and serbs fall into the same category but I could also mention the 1956 events in Hungary which led to the first cracks in the massive wall of communism .Well British Empire became really big and strong since the beggining of 18th century when they had scottish fighters among their ranks.What a strong match-up were the highlanders for the coosacks during the crimean war for example.(It is also worth checking how the scotts are overrepresented among succesfull british sportsmen and inventors) I know america likes and belivies only in big things
(cars,food portions,chest-size etc.) but trust me small can also be very effective.

David,

With all due respect, most Americans use the internet to:

* buy products
* trade stocks
* download porn

Seeking balanced news reports at antiwar.com is certainly not a priority.

Let's be frank, most Americans get their "news" from either the press or through tv.

Both the conservative Wall Street Journal and the liberal rag New York Times are enthusiastic cheerleaders for U.S. military misadventures overseas.

And it gets worse. . .

During the Kosovo war, CNN employed military psychological warfare specialists from airmobile Fourth Psychological Operations Group, stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. One of the main tasks of this group of almost 1200 soldiers and officers is to spread 'selected information'.

As Major Thomas Collins, of the U.S. Army Information Service acknowledged:

"Psyops personnel, soldiers and officers, have been working in CNN's headquarters in Atlanta through our programme 'Training With Industry'. They worked as regular employees of CNN. Conceivably, they would have worked on stories during the Kosovo war. They helped in the production of news."

David, you had the military "developing" news for your consumption. The military!?!

Even Joseph Goebbels would have been impressed by this!

Most people wanted Yugoslavia destroyed? That's not true.

I didn't. Most Serbs didn't. Why would we want to destroy something that we basically created (despite being conceptually faulty)?

" and ALL who made it to albania proper were saved. "

Really?

Nemanja
I wonder why everybody talks only of the Albanians on the other side ? What about Enver Pasha to free the country ? With my firm alibi of a radical in Kosovo matters I still believe the truth must be told. Too much of revisionism do we have today !

David Wright
You cannot say that Serbia’s role was insignificant ! Because in 1941 there was time that they were the only resisting nation to the Axis ! Because their combat losses were third after the USSR &USA. Because during 4 years they have kept from 300 000 to 800 000 troops of the Axis. Because they have captured 5 Italian divisions . Because they have set free 90% of their soil by themselves. Because only 8000 Soviets were killed in Yugo … Because their partisans were the only ones to fight as good as the Soviet ones. Because they fought much longer than France , USA , UK or even the USSR. Longer than anyone else ! Their Chetniks rebelled when nobody dared to ! I would even say that it was Stalin who has joined Michailovich in June of 1941 …

@Rote Kapella
how many Italian divisions did the Serbs captur??
But where do you take all this information? Please tell me..

Luigi - Rote Kapelle probably think about divisions captured in September 1943:
- part of 1st Alpine Division Taurinense
- 19 Infantry Division Venezia
- part of 41 Infantry Division Firenze
and maybe units from some other divisions.

And is also a fact that had the germans not invaded Yugoslavia on April 6th, they would've had even more time.

By their very act of resistance, the serbs denied them this.

Hardly what I'd call 'insignificant'.

So suggest you study the history of WWII first before attempting to comment on it. Who knows, you just might learn something.


szemi:
'Kosova-USA' probably thinks Anthony Quinn was greek.
(peter, sydney, 1 September 2009 19:14)

Peter,

It is no mystery whatsoever that it was the Serbian people who provided the bulwark in the antifascist struggle in WW2. They sustained great losses and sacrificed many of their compatriots in the good fight. Many of them were in Tito's Partizans whom I had the pleasure to meet some in my travels to Serbia. All proud yet brave menwho sacrificed everyhing to free Yugoslavia from the fascist menace and there native collaborators - Ustasa, Handzhar and Skenderbeg thugs.

It is also true that the Yugoslav resistance (heavily dominated by Serbs) held up 11 SS divisions during the crucial period in the build up and after the invasion of the USSR (1941-late '42) when Berlin had to divert much needed resources from the Eastern Front to keep the Cetniks and Partizans in check.

and as for some of or irridentist Albanian friends who name their streets after members of the Balli Kombater, at least acknowledge your wrongs of the past.

"I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives...
(David Wright, 1 September 2009 19:54)"

Recent controversy? I doubt it has anything to do with that. In any event, if it were to do with that, which it is not, then I would applaud Mr Tadic's support of the proper, ethical and morally correct decision of us Scots to let a man go and die a painful death with his loved ones . Go bay for blood elsewhere.

David says ...Is he (tadic) really that politically tone deaf?!!? I just find it curios that Tadic would show up for a photo-op with Gaddafi amonst all the recent controversy. If Tadic were so gung ho about having a presence there, I think he could have sent someone else. In my humble opinion the benefits dont outweigh negatives..."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/07/09/obama_shakes_hands_with_gaddaf.html

"As Obama was shaking hands with Gaddafi, families of Pan Am 103 victims were gathered at the British Embassy in Washington and the British consulate in New York, speaking via video conference with Kenneth MacAskill, the Scottish justice secretary, and pleading that the convicted Lockerbie bomber not be returned to Libya."

Obama seems to have a hearing deficit.

That roberto says to you "in essence i agree w/yr point" is predictable and rather old.

How does the saying go?

"The first victims of war are morality and truth".

I don't think everybody here should get too involved in these discussions, since none of us were there and can tell for ourselves exactly what happened.

History is written, rewritten and manipulated. Sad but true. We should rather remember the victims.

people of each major nationality fought on each of every side in the balkans during that war. that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

thank you.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 1 September 2009 21:48)

that's a half-truth. nazis did exist in pretty much every country in europe back then, but not in every country did they have significant support. in some countries they were able to come to power on their own. in some other countries they were able to come to power with support from other fascist countries but were able to sustain themselves then easily because they didn't face much resistance. and in some other countries fascist government were installed by german nazis, but were able to stay in charge only thanks to the military support from germany because of significant resistance of their own people. serbia is one of them.

that is the truth, denying it is a lie.

thank you
malcolm x
not from frisco

Niall O'Doherty:
"It is also true that the Yugoslav resistance (heavily dominated by Serbs) held up 11 SS divisions during the crucial period in the build up and after the invasion of the USSR (1941-late '42) when Berlin had to divert much needed resources from the Eastern Front to keep the Cetniks and Partizans in check."

Tying up those divisions was a factor, but most of them were infantry, and the germans had over a hundred of those for Barbarossa. There were a couple of armoured divisions that couldn't be refitted in time for the June invasion that would've have come in handy, but once again, not critical.

Critical factor was time & critical time was late summer of 41 when russians were reeling.

Main problem germans had was resupplying & bringing up reinforcements & replacements. Roads in russia were inadequate for this so main line of supply had to be the rail lines, & russian rail gauge was wider than european standard.

And it takes time to convert the track.

David Wright,

If you believe with the whole of your heart that your country is right to implement their foreign policy as they do then I really do pity you.

RIP all those innocent souls destroyed by "US interests".