Albanian NGOs on "territory exchange"

Hmmm... Pure ethnic countries - that nazi idea. I'm from Poland, that i know this stupid ideas and their effects - killing of millions "non arians" and "ubermenschen" peoples in Central and Eastern Europe. Before war - Poland was one of most multiethnic countries in Europe. But after war, after nazi genocide, ethnic cleansings (both nazi and communist) and border changes Poland is on of most homogenous states in Europe. Today Albanians back to this ideas.

"Some 500 families left Preševo and Bujanovac because of these detentions and fear,"

That's right, fear of getting caught. Enough with causing all this instability already. If you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to run from.

So where is international right for unificate of all serbian lands?? Did Hungarians need to create pseudoindependent countries on the territories of Romania, Slovakia or Serbia?? Where is US support for armenian Karabakh or independent Ossetia and Abkhazia??

Albania is only nation in Europe, who have their independent country (Albania), bud need more and more lands. This is only point of instability on the Balkan Peninsula.

They live in a fantasy world to even consider land-exchange, as no neighboring country is willing to exchange more their own land for less of their own land because Albanians colonized through ethnic cleansing parts of Serbia & Macedonia in Turkish & communist times. When Russia was weak & dependent on the West, Serbs were doomed in the 90s, now the West is dependent on Russia & the Albanians are doomed & Kurti is enough of a realist to realize

Over the last century, the international community has said

No to a Greater Bulgaria
No to a Greater Hungary
No to a Greater Romania
No to a Greater Germany
No to a Greater Croatia
No to a Greater Serbia

So what in all of the world gives some people here even the slightest idea that a Greater Albania is even remotely feasible or even desired?

These individuals are only fanning the flames of the next inevitable war in the Balkans, which will sadly return again. Unfortunately for them, their fate next time around will find them reduced in every respect, rather than enlarged.

ben,

What do you want to happen?
As I said before mutual agreements are fine with me.

If Kosovo-South wants to join Albania and Serbia agrees: fine!
But then let Northern Kosovo and Serbs in Bosnia join Serbia.

Croation parts of Bosnia can join Bosnia.

We got a deal?

I am not pro-Serb, I am not pro-Albanian, I am pro-international-law. That's all.

But ben, on this beautiful Sunday, have we got a deal? :)

Milan,

I agree with you. This can only happen by mutual agreement.

And even better: changing international law so others can also use it.

Say hello to Kurdistan and Tibet please!

Find mutual agreement, and at least Ron agrees! :)

Artan Grubi said that "Albanians have nothing to exchange". Rather, he continued, "there are only things they can take".


I share Artan's opinion. With exception of north Kosova for Presheva valley Albanians have nothing to give but to take. And since the thefts don't want to pay back what they have stolen there is tension and crisis in Balkans.

Albanians live in compact territory which is in continuation and homogenous with all other Albanian lands- as result we don't need any ethnic cleansing and creation of artificial country as some well known to the world people here in Balkans were doing during the 90s. Moreover in those lands Albanians are the absolute majority.

So what do we have to give??? it's our land where we live, it's compact and continuous and we are absolute majority there. The only thing that international community has to do is to acknowledge this fact and recognize that it was them that in Berlin's conference etc stole the lands of Albanians and gave to Yugoslavia.

Albania is the only country in the world that borders with herself- with Albanians and this paradox must end for a durable peace in Balkans.

One thing is for sure, we Albanians have shown during the history that we never surrender- NEVER.

You can twist us for some time but you can naver break us.

Matthew,

What can I say, wish YU never broke up.


Peter,

But if you can't live together in YU how can Kosovo be a multi-ethnic paradise?


To the Albanians,

Stop this nonsense. And accept you are part of Serbia!!

One thing is for sure, we Albanians have shown during the history that we never surrender- NEVER.

You can twist us for some time but you can naver break us.
(ben, 30 August 2009 12:04)

What about when Albanians surrendered themselves fully to the Turks and even surrendered their own religion(from Christianity to Islam) to gain lasting impression on the Ottoman Empire? Also to the Italians easily on WWII in order to get help to create the Great Albania? So you don't call that surrender? Albanians will convert themselves to the Southern Baptist Church if their new master U.S say so!

They (neighbouring countrys) carved up our land and now they want to exchange our own territorys ?

It's just not going to happen, simple as that.

This territotial nonsense brought about WW2, where 50 million died, do you think the international community is going to make the same mistake to satisfy some disgruntled Albanians?

“Albania is the only country in the world that borders with herself- with Albanians and this paradox must end for a durable peace in Balkans. (ben, 30 August 2009 12:04)”

Ben, Serbia is in exactly the same boat (RS, Krajina, Montenegro), so is Croatia (parts of Bosnia), the Bosniaks (Sandzak) etc etc etc.

I agree Albanians and Serbs have it the worst.

Personally I agree an exchange of some sort is key to any partition plan.

What I would like to see most is some sort of solution (preferably mutually agreed upon) that we can use to apply to other regions of the world with similar problems. We must have consistent rules that apply to everyone.

Now that being said, and as unpopular as this idea may be, I’m going to go farther and say that population exchanges can work.

Greece and Turkey exchanged millions of their people and that took care of a bunch of their problems. Yes, we have Cyprus still, but can you imagine how terrible it could be if their populations were still mixed like that all over the region?

I think Serbia should put Nis and parts of Vojvodina on the table for exchange for some of our important historical areas. I think people living in those regions should be paid triple the current market values for their homes, so that they can set up in style if they choose to move.

To my Serbian brothers who disagree with me. I say parts of Kosovo are so important to us culturally that any sacrifice is worth it.

To my Albanian neighbors I say why not trade some land for important cities or farming land. You used to live on all that area at one point anyway. None of those areas are historically important to you, why not trade it for land that is economically important?

We absolutely have to come to an agreement that both sides can live with, or we will end up destroying the EU just as YU was destroyed.

If a multi-ethnic society did not work in YU why would it work in any of the current borders? No one in the region treats their minorities with the proper respect. All sides of guilty of ethnic cleansing.

We need to stop pointing fingers and start thinking about a solution that works.

Piotr,

I am sure they will start a big scale conflict relying too much on US and Turkish help.But the situation is much diferrent:Turks are not so stupid to be involved and become this time the ill man of the midddle east why in Pentagon at least based on last years georgian experiance there are still some who care about the true american interests(those who from inside did the best to minimize american involvment and help to sakashvilli) and not those of AIPEC.

Ron

Exactly, it was one of the main requirements for them, but like is typical in Albanian mentality, they will change their views and alliances to get what they want to get, only it doesn't always work in their favor, like now with EULEX.

szemi

I don't think anyone will try to support the Albanians again, EULEX must already slowly but surely be getting fed up with Kosovo's politicians, you will see, they will get closer and closer to Serbia, leaving these guys isolated.

Well, there is an obvious solution. Recreate the Austro-Hapsburg empire (coz it woz great) and those core states are now in the EU, give the Balkans back to Turkey in a new Ottoman Empire (coz it woz great) and Turkey wants to join the EU too).

Et Voila! It is so simple.

But, of course there is the 'small' problem of discrimination against minorities still remains which is a bit of a sore point if you want to join the EU, though once you've joined it doesn't seem to matter too much (neo nazi hungarians killing gypsies etc.)

We can rely on the great European Parliament to take this in to consideration except for the Serbs.

I must now pause to wring my cloth of all the sarcasm it contains.

That this conference even took place shows the poor level of thinking on just about every possible level by those 'NGOs' which is regressive back to the 18th century on so many levels.

Not a conference about jobs, nor investment, nor education etc. BUT the exchange of territories! Well done, what progress, what absolutely great PR!

Back to the Future.

ben´s comment perfectly shows what the problem with the Albanians is all about.

not only having no clue of history, they, or let´s be fair, a lot of them believe in cheesy myths about being the descendants of the illyrians ( laughable in regard to modern historical sciences ) or they dream of unifying "all albanian lands" which they shamefully dare to call "natural Albania", and the peak of it all is when some irresponsible freaks talk about

""Albanians have nothing to exchange - only to take "

while there is nothing they have that could be changed anyway.

they do not own anything that would be of interest to others.

it´s just the opposite, Serbia has nothing to change. it´s all serbian territory. let´s not forget that, folks.

so, instead of dreaming aloud, like som K-albanians are doing here, they should better come to terms with reality.

and with international law on Serbia´s side, the things are pretty clear.

at least for those, who got at least a little bit of gray matter...

Neither the Albanians nor the Serbs have any plans to occupy just any random country that’s not linked to us or our history
(BH_NYC, 31 August 2009 16:08)

So - what do You think about albanian plan of "unificate all albanian lands"?? Is this plan not similar to Hitler's plan of unificate of all lands where lived Germans?? First they reunificate Austria. But Hitler need more "german lands". Germany steal part of Czechoslovakia and Lithuania, and need part of Poland. Hitler's plan finished at Sept. 1 1939 by start of World War II, when Poland refused to gave for Germany part of their territory where lived ethnic Germans. And West supported at this moment Poland - becouse international law was first than stupid idea of Greater Germany.

szemi

I don't think anyone will try to support the Albanians again
(Peter Sudyka, 31 August 2009 08:27)

This is what I mainly indicated in my comment.But they do not feel this end may very easily end up the same way as Germans after WW2:

I'm astounded by some ridiculous comments on this topic. The Nazis plan was to exterminate the Jews in particular regardless of where they lived (plus communists etc along the way). Neither the Albanians nor the Serbs have any plans to occupy just any random country that’s not linked to us or our history. To draw any parallels between Albanian’s (or even Serb’s) current ‘fight’ and the Nazi’s fight against the whole world, just shows the lack of knowledge some people have about this issue.

The exchange of Presevo for just the north of Kosovo wouldn't be a very fair one, given the fact that Serbia more or less already lost Kosovo as a whole. What's more, north of Kosovo is already under Serbian control, so I really don't see what exchange could be made there. If there is going to be an exchange (and only if), K-Albanians should have more to offer than just the north of Kosovo, like access for Serbia to at least some of the places of Serbian cultural heritage; (part of) Kosovo Polje, Gracanica and/or Pec patriarchate. Only in that case a situation could arise that satifies both.

If Albanians continue causing instability in this region they could cause more rage with all of their neighbours and at the end they could lose what they allready have.

As for teritorial exchange Preševo for north of Kosovo it's impossible because north of Kosovo is Serb predominated part of it and Preševo is ruled by Serbia. Albanians doesn't rule those territories at all. If they want to exchange territories they can only exchange territories with albanian majority in Kosovo for the north.

As for comments that all this part of Balkan was Albanian and it was allegedly stolen from them(despite the fact that actually Albanians live in territories that aren't theirs at all) I can only laugh out loud.

(Milan, 31 August 2009 21:47)

Milan, your argument could also be used against you/Serbia. i.e. wars in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosova...

One thing to remember, WWII started with occupation of Poland but not BECAUSE they occupied Poland. What I'm trying to say is that their plan the Nazis' was to rule the world, not only the German 'inhabited' areas, whereas our wars in the Balkans although they’re as stupid as all other wars, they can still be justified somehow.

I've always believed that BOTH the Serbs and Albanians are justified in being dissatisfied with state borders in the Balkans. BOTH nations have legitimate historical grievances and BOTH are scattered across many countries in a region where minority groups are generally unable to achieve the necessary security that would enable them to thrive. If only it were possible to peacefully change borders while at the same time implementing high levels of autonomy for national minorities throughout the region that would satisfy (most) everyone!?

Artan Grubi said that "Albanians have nothing to exchange". Rather, he continued, "there are only things they can take".


I share Artan's opinion. With exception of north Kosova for Presheva valley Albanians have nothing to give but to take. And since the thefts don't want to pay back what they have stolen there is tension and crisis in Balkans.

Albanians live in compact territory which is in continuation and homogenous with all other Albanian lands- as result we don't need any ethnic cleansing and creation of artificial country as some well known to the world people here in Balkans were doing during the 90s. Moreover in those lands Albanians are the absolute majority.

So what do we have to give??? it's our land where we live, it's compact and continuous and we are absolute majority there. The only thing that international community has to do is to acknowledge this fact and recognize that it was them that in Berlin's conference etc stole the lands of Albanians and gave to Yugoslavia.

Albania is the only country in the world that borders with herself- with Albanians and this paradox must end for a durable peace in Balkans.

One thing is for sure, we Albanians have shown during the history that we never surrender- NEVER.

You can twist us for some time but you can naver break us.

They (neighbouring countrys) carved up our land and now they want to exchange our own territorys ?

"Some 500 families left Preševo and Bujanovac because of these detentions and fear,"

That's right, fear of getting caught. Enough with causing all this instability already. If you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to run from.

These individuals are only fanning the flames of the next inevitable war in the Balkans, which will sadly return again. Unfortunately for them, their fate next time around will find them reduced in every respect, rather than enlarged.

Hmmm... Pure ethnic countries - that nazi idea. I'm from Poland, that i know this stupid ideas and their effects - killing of millions "non arians" and "ubermenschen" peoples in Central and Eastern Europe. Before war - Poland was one of most multiethnic countries in Europe. But after war, after nazi genocide, ethnic cleansings (both nazi and communist) and border changes Poland is on of most homogenous states in Europe. Today Albanians back to this ideas.

So where is international right for unificate of all serbian lands?? Did Hungarians need to create pseudoindependent countries on the territories of Romania, Slovakia or Serbia?? Where is US support for armenian Karabakh or independent Ossetia and Abkhazia??

Albania is only nation in Europe, who have their independent country (Albania), bud need more and more lands. This is only point of instability on the Balkan Peninsula.

They live in a fantasy world to even consider land-exchange, as no neighboring country is willing to exchange more their own land for less of their own land because Albanians colonized through ethnic cleansing parts of Serbia & Macedonia in Turkish & communist times. When Russia was weak & dependent on the West, Serbs were doomed in the 90s, now the West is dependent on Russia & the Albanians are doomed & Kurti is enough of a realist to realize

“Albania is the only country in the world that borders with herself- with Albanians and this paradox must end for a durable peace in Balkans. (ben, 30 August 2009 12:04)”

Ben, Serbia is in exactly the same boat (RS, Krajina, Montenegro), so is Croatia (parts of Bosnia), the Bosniaks (Sandzak) etc etc etc.

I agree Albanians and Serbs have it the worst.

Personally I agree an exchange of some sort is key to any partition plan.

What I would like to see most is some sort of solution (preferably mutually agreed upon) that we can use to apply to other regions of the world with similar problems. We must have consistent rules that apply to everyone.

Now that being said, and as unpopular as this idea may be, I’m going to go farther and say that population exchanges can work.

Greece and Turkey exchanged millions of their people and that took care of a bunch of their problems. Yes, we have Cyprus still, but can you imagine how terrible it could be if their populations were still mixed like that all over the region?

I think Serbia should put Nis and parts of Vojvodina on the table for exchange for some of our important historical areas. I think people living in those regions should be paid triple the current market values for their homes, so that they can set up in style if they choose to move.

To my Serbian brothers who disagree with me. I say parts of Kosovo are so important to us culturally that any sacrifice is worth it.

To my Albanian neighbors I say why not trade some land for important cities or farming land. You used to live on all that area at one point anyway. None of those areas are historically important to you, why not trade it for land that is economically important?

We absolutely have to come to an agreement that both sides can live with, or we will end up destroying the EU just as YU was destroyed.

If a multi-ethnic society did not work in YU why would it work in any of the current borders? No one in the region treats their minorities with the proper respect. All sides of guilty of ethnic cleansing.

We need to stop pointing fingers and start thinking about a solution that works.

It's just not going to happen, simple as that.

This territotial nonsense brought about WW2, where 50 million died, do you think the international community is going to make the same mistake to satisfy some disgruntled Albanians?

ben,

What do you want to happen?
As I said before mutual agreements are fine with me.

If Kosovo-South wants to join Albania and Serbia agrees: fine!
But then let Northern Kosovo and Serbs in Bosnia join Serbia.

Croation parts of Bosnia can join Bosnia.

We got a deal?

I am not pro-Serb, I am not pro-Albanian, I am pro-international-law. That's all.

But ben, on this beautiful Sunday, have we got a deal? :)

Matthew,

What can I say, wish YU never broke up.


Peter,

But if you can't live together in YU how can Kosovo be a multi-ethnic paradise?


To the Albanians,

Stop this nonsense. And accept you are part of Serbia!!

One thing is for sure, we Albanians have shown during the history that we never surrender- NEVER.

You can twist us for some time but you can naver break us.
(ben, 30 August 2009 12:04)

What about when Albanians surrendered themselves fully to the Turks and even surrendered their own religion(from Christianity to Islam) to gain lasting impression on the Ottoman Empire? Also to the Italians easily on WWII in order to get help to create the Great Albania? So you don't call that surrender? Albanians will convert themselves to the Southern Baptist Church if their new master U.S say so!

Over the last century, the international community has said

No to a Greater Bulgaria
No to a Greater Hungary
No to a Greater Romania
No to a Greater Germany
No to a Greater Croatia
No to a Greater Serbia

So what in all of the world gives some people here even the slightest idea that a Greater Albania is even remotely feasible or even desired?

Milan,

I agree with you. This can only happen by mutual agreement.

And even better: changing international law so others can also use it.

Say hello to Kurdistan and Tibet please!

Find mutual agreement, and at least Ron agrees! :)

The exchange of Presevo for just the north of Kosovo wouldn't be a very fair one, given the fact that Serbia more or less already lost Kosovo as a whole. What's more, north of Kosovo is already under Serbian control, so I really don't see what exchange could be made there. If there is going to be an exchange (and only if), K-Albanians should have more to offer than just the north of Kosovo, like access for Serbia to at least some of the places of Serbian cultural heritage; (part of) Kosovo Polje, Gracanica and/or Pec patriarchate. Only in that case a situation could arise that satifies both.

Piotr,

I am sure they will start a big scale conflict relying too much on US and Turkish help.But the situation is much diferrent:Turks are not so stupid to be involved and become this time the ill man of the midddle east why in Pentagon at least based on last years georgian experiance there are still some who care about the true american interests(those who from inside did the best to minimize american involvment and help to sakashvilli) and not those of AIPEC.

Ron

Exactly, it was one of the main requirements for them, but like is typical in Albanian mentality, they will change their views and alliances to get what they want to get, only it doesn't always work in their favor, like now with EULEX.

szemi

I don't think anyone will try to support the Albanians again, EULEX must already slowly but surely be getting fed up with Kosovo's politicians, you will see, they will get closer and closer to Serbia, leaving these guys isolated.

I'm astounded by some ridiculous comments on this topic. The Nazis plan was to exterminate the Jews in particular regardless of where they lived (plus communists etc along the way). Neither the Albanians nor the Serbs have any plans to occupy just any random country that’s not linked to us or our history. To draw any parallels between Albanian’s (or even Serb’s) current ‘fight’ and the Nazi’s fight against the whole world, just shows the lack of knowledge some people have about this issue.

Neither the Albanians nor the Serbs have any plans to occupy just any random country that’s not linked to us or our history
(BH_NYC, 31 August 2009 16:08)

So - what do You think about albanian plan of "unificate all albanian lands"?? Is this plan not similar to Hitler's plan of unificate of all lands where lived Germans?? First they reunificate Austria. But Hitler need more "german lands". Germany steal part of Czechoslovakia and Lithuania, and need part of Poland. Hitler's plan finished at Sept. 1 1939 by start of World War II, when Poland refused to gave for Germany part of their territory where lived ethnic Germans. And West supported at this moment Poland - becouse international law was first than stupid idea of Greater Germany.

I've always believed that BOTH the Serbs and Albanians are justified in being dissatisfied with state borders in the Balkans. BOTH nations have legitimate historical grievances and BOTH are scattered across many countries in a region where minority groups are generally unable to achieve the necessary security that would enable them to thrive. If only it were possible to peacefully change borders while at the same time implementing high levels of autonomy for national minorities throughout the region that would satisfy (most) everyone!?

ben´s comment perfectly shows what the problem with the Albanians is all about.

not only having no clue of history, they, or let´s be fair, a lot of them believe in cheesy myths about being the descendants of the illyrians ( laughable in regard to modern historical sciences ) or they dream of unifying "all albanian lands" which they shamefully dare to call "natural Albania", and the peak of it all is when some irresponsible freaks talk about

""Albanians have nothing to exchange - only to take "

while there is nothing they have that could be changed anyway.

they do not own anything that would be of interest to others.

it´s just the opposite, Serbia has nothing to change. it´s all serbian territory. let´s not forget that, folks.

so, instead of dreaming aloud, like som K-albanians are doing here, they should better come to terms with reality.

and with international law on Serbia´s side, the things are pretty clear.

at least for those, who got at least a little bit of gray matter...

(Milan, 31 August 2009 21:47)

Milan, your argument could also be used against you/Serbia. i.e. wars in Croatia, Bosnia, Kosova...

One thing to remember, WWII started with occupation of Poland but not BECAUSE they occupied Poland. What I'm trying to say is that their plan the Nazis' was to rule the world, not only the German 'inhabited' areas, whereas our wars in the Balkans although they’re as stupid as all other wars, they can still be justified somehow.

If Albanians continue causing instability in this region they could cause more rage with all of their neighbours and at the end they could lose what they allready have.

As for teritorial exchange Preševo for north of Kosovo it's impossible because north of Kosovo is Serb predominated part of it and Preševo is ruled by Serbia. Albanians doesn't rule those territories at all. If they want to exchange territories they can only exchange territories with albanian majority in Kosovo for the north.

As for comments that all this part of Balkan was Albanian and it was allegedly stolen from them(despite the fact that actually Albanians live in territories that aren't theirs at all) I can only laugh out loud.

Well, there is an obvious solution. Recreate the Austro-Hapsburg empire (coz it woz great) and those core states are now in the EU, give the Balkans back to Turkey in a new Ottoman Empire (coz it woz great) and Turkey wants to join the EU too).

Et Voila! It is so simple.

But, of course there is the 'small' problem of discrimination against minorities still remains which is a bit of a sore point if you want to join the EU, though once you've joined it doesn't seem to matter too much (neo nazi hungarians killing gypsies etc.)

We can rely on the great European Parliament to take this in to consideration except for the Serbs.

I must now pause to wring my cloth of all the sarcasm it contains.

That this conference even took place shows the poor level of thinking on just about every possible level by those 'NGOs' which is regressive back to the 18th century on so many levels.

Not a conference about jobs, nor investment, nor education etc. BUT the exchange of territories! Well done, what progress, what absolutely great PR!

Back to the Future.

szemi

I don't think anyone will try to support the Albanians again
(Peter Sudyka, 31 August 2009 08:27)

This is what I mainly indicated in my comment.But they do not feel this end may very easily end up the same way as Germans after WW2: