Interior Minister Ivica Dačić says MUP will start checking addresses in the south of the country after an increase in the number of residency applications.
Ataman, that sounds strange to me too, I have never heard that before. May be something was lost in translation? Maybe someone was being ironic?
(Adrian Gashi, 21 August 2009 18:24)
It was not ironic - it was a serious market day. The sellers conversed mostly in Albanian, btw. What they sold were mostly "touristy" things ( = souvenirs). Just got an idea - could happen the "Lek" numbers were added to add some authentic look and feel (for tourists)? They did not know of course, the Dinars were hard currency for us, but we could get unlimited Lek using a much better exchange rate because of special agreements***. However, we did not expect that and of course had no Lek.
-----
*** these agreements were all in place till early 90-s. Except few countries (Hungary and Poland) the rest had "forced" hard currency exchange rate which had nothing to do with reality. Exception was made for other "colleagues" and the exchange rate was close to the "black" market.
Typically: Soviet Union had "forced" exchange rate of 0.60 Rbl being 1 USD and East Germany's "forced" exchange rate was 1 DM = 1 DDM. This did apply to all countries including YU, but did not apply to COMECON + NKorea + Cuba + VietNam + Albania.
Instead, between these countries a much more realistic "average consumer basket" exchange rate was applied and it had nothing to do with the rate towards hard currency.
'3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
(Ataman, 21 August 2009 13:32) '
There was a romantic fascination among (especially) young Albanians living in Kosova with an almost mythical - because almost entirely unknown - Albania. Some actually managed to get there, where they were soon disabused of their illusions. Assuming that anything the government said was a lie was generally a useful rule in Communist countries, but it could be over-applied: Albania actually was pretty-much a hell-hole. This patriotic/romantic attachment to Albania might also account for prices being quoted in leks - it seems possible, but you'd have to ask someone who was living there at the time.
Of course,technically they are citizens of Serbia(unfortunately) but we have at the moment no de facto control over our Southern province.
That is why the resettlement of Albanians into Serbia proper must be stopped immediately if there is any (which I personally doubt).
Lets find out any burocratic measures to do this ,no matter which,state for example that the current government of Kosovo that reflects the will of the Albanian people doesn`t recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia ,therefore they should have no rights to resettle to Serbia proper etc. and of course explain these measures to the Western embassies...
I am sure they don`t want a new crisis at this moment in the Balkans...
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received?
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
--
Krajina in Croatia and Kosovo were practically completely cleansed of Serbians and the Western media hardly mentioned it. Why would they care about communist Albanians entering communist Yugoslavia?
As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
(szemi, 20 August 2009 22:41)
Only her, no tacsi (dachshund) please. That dachsund (tacsi) is for Serbs - to lock him up for the rest of his criminal life.
As for border crossings - I am, too somewhat sceptic about large number of Albanians being able to do. On the other side as we visited Ohrid in 1980 we went to market and people did quote prices in Lek, too, not just Dinar. The move between the countries could exist - but for sure they kept very low profile and it was kept in secrecy.
An other question: why are they in the West now paranoic about Kosovars being really (ex)YU citizens or newcomers? If they really are, than indeed there were newcomers.
I beg everyone to tell the truth. It does not have much role today. All we have outside of (ex)YU and Albania is bunch of half-truth, speculation and different figures - and nothing adds up either to back or to deny. My own experience (see Ohrid) was minimal and controversal.
Why controversal:
1) if there was no move between countries, why on Earth quote prices in Lek? Dinar of 1980 was a much better currency anyway.
2) If the move was only from Albania to YU, than the newcomers would never use Lek. Political refugees in new country never use the currency of their country of origin. They are happy to forget the old days.
3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
Yugoslavia's Census -- Final Results
BY: Slobodan Stankovic
DATE: 1982-3-10
COUNTRY: Yugoslavia
'In addition to these "leading" nations in Yugoslavia, there
are 18 "nationalities" (the official name for national minorities),
of which the Albanians numbering 1,730,000 and the Hungarians
numbering 425,000 are the strongest. But while the number of
Albanians in Yugoslavia jumped from 1,309,523 in 1971 to 1,730,000
in 1981, the number of the Hungarians dropped from 477,374 in
1971 to 425,000 in 1981. The increase of Albanians in Yugoslavia
appears to be due to a very high birth rate (more than 27%), while
the real reason for the decrease of Hungarians has not yet been
thoroughly analyzed. It is, however, believed that two main
reasons might be responsible for this decrease: a low birth rate
and the fact that at least some Hungarians might have declared
themselves as "Yugoslavs" this time. '
Why do i really doubt that you are albanian. There is not one piece of historucal evidence to support you claims. there was never no mass exoduc from Albania. What year are you refering to? I would like to know. My wifes family is from Kosova and her drandmother never saw her brothers or sisters untill 1990 becasue no one was allowed to leave the country.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
(Olf, 20 August 2009 17:06)
Yes Olf, for once you are right, K-A are better treated in Switzerland than in Kosovo wounderland that's why we have so many of them and none of them wants to return, damm right you are!
Someone told me one day to get out of the box, just can't recall who it was...
"I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times."
Ataman, how does one argue with hearsay? The history of the Cold War is very well known and documented, after all we're not talking about the stone age, but about only a few decades ago. With a little effort every one can check the newspaper archives, for example "New York Times" has online archives that anyone can search. Had 10% of Albania's population escaped from the stalinist regime, it would have certainly made big headlines in the West. So, where is the evidence that supports the claim, that hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Albania came in Kosova during the 70s and 80s?
And why would the Yugoslav government allow hundreds of thousands of Albanians to settle in Kosova, when it had hard time controlling it's own restive Albanian population in the first place?
mark gregory clayter
- When Albanian population of Kosova was 400,000, the Serbian population of Serbia was 3 million. (BTW, these numbers correspond to circa 1920 populations). At the same time the population of Albania was 700,000. Today, Albania's population is 3.6 million, Kosovar Albanian 2 million and Serbia's 7.5 million. Obviously, the Albanian population of both Kosova and Albania grew up by nearly the same rate (5 times), while Serbian population by only half of that (2.5 times). The difference in natality can be explained by socio-economic conditions in the two societies. There's no evidence whatsoever to back the claim that a large number of Albanians from Albania, settled in Kosova.
On the issue of natality, there is also a difference among Albanians themselves, as with any other population: typically rural housewives have a much higher birthrate than urban working women.
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
(Ataman, 20 August 2009 18:54)
Well you are very persistent.A deal can be made.Serbs come to Budim,Sent Andreja,Ráckeve.(Alredy have centuries long serb traditions and population) while albanians are free to move to Mátészalka,Tatárszentgyörgy and Olaszliszka places which most suit their culture in Hungary.As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
That sounds very logical and it is what we did know in 80-s being in Hungary and/or USSR.
---------
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came
(Ratko, 20 August 2009 17:42)
I did hear that, too from multiple sources.
---------
I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times.
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
Good move! Kosova shoud also check if Serbs in Kosova are "residents" or not. If they legally list Nis as their residence, what are they doing in Kosova?
Now,"If" Kosovo is Srbija,
Why cant a citizen of Srbija(Albanian, Roma, Ashkali, Serb etc) from Prishtina move to live in Serbija i.e. Belgrade.
Is i because they are not from Serbija or what.
I dont get it, is Kosovo Serbija or not. Or Kosovo is Serbija for those that buy it but not in reality.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
can you albanians explain how the population of kosovo went from 400,00 max after ww2 to 2 million today? (if no one crossed the border)
do you actually believe any of the things you say? i understand if you are trying to argue with the serbs, then your statements make sense. but if you actually believe in what you say....that would be truly scary.
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came, so please spare us. Just recently after Serb army pulled out of Kosmet a big wave of even more ablanians came there. Someone has to take over Serb apartments/houses who were victims of ethnic cleansing?
"During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo"
During the 70s and 80s, Albania was one of the most isolated countries in the world, with borders sealed shut - people that could get into or outside the country were in single digits, with the totalitarian state having an iron grip of anyone's movements. The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
For anyone to claim that hundreds of thousands of Albanians crossed the border, betrays a deep lack of knowledge of the Cold War politics in the Balkans. Albania then was in a constant hostile standoff with both Greece and Yugoslavia.
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received? Can you point to even one single article that shows Albanians leaving en masse?
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
(Niall O'Doherty, 20 August 2009 13:19)
--
Yep, they were talking amongst themselves in Albanian and then to the lady at the desk in Serbian. She queried their place of origin and they all confirmed being from Kosovo but were now temporarily residing in Belgrade. She then just handed them their licna karta and passports. I also noticed they handed in their old Blue "Yugoslav" passports.
It will be the EU that will experience a new influx of ethnic Albanians, many of whom I expect will overstay. Lets see how many ethnic Albanians do this as it looks like a fairly simple process - they come to Belgrade, register their address here and then get a new passport and licna karta. Then off to the EU to become mega wealthy! :)
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
(MikeC, 20 August 2009 10:40)
I'm from Albania and I remember crossing the border on those years you mentioned, In fact we had approval from Enver Hoxha....Can I get one of those passports too...
Thanks in advance.
Ah forgot to mention, crossing the border with were somewhere between 20 000 to 25 000 others.
“Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands Albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.”
The uncle of my father in 70’, because of the persecution of the communist regime, attempted to illegally cross the border but he was caught by the soldier of border defense. The first consequence was a sentence of 14 years in prison and hard labor camp. Can one imagine how hundred of thousand could have crossed the border as claimed above!!! In such case we have obviously extreme high level of sub conscience from the Milosevic time.
And of course don’t let unpunished such abusive persons who sell their identity for a passport. They are disease for the relations between Balkan nations. For the moment being Balkan is a mess. People with 3 - 4 passports who mostly cause only problems and nobody knows who is and where is from.
“I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.”
As far as I have frequently read here there also Albanians living in Belgrade so is not wondering that anybody waits in turn to take his/her passport. As for the others who abuse with their addresses or whatever, the law should punish them but I am afraid that somebody would close an eye for the sake of “Kosovo is Serbia”.
“Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.”
So far no reasonable person is talking about “Greater Albania” even though that is only a political invention. The Albanians simply want their rights to be respected in their respective countries. Nothing more and nothing less than that. Concerning the EU access there are already millions of Albanians in EU. Even if the borders would be opened tomorrow only a tiny part of them could possible leave. The EU is not anymore field of flowers.
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
(Zoran, 20 August 2009 11:08)
Damn right Zoran. The K-Albanians are entitled to Serbian passports and will get them no problem. Its easy get around any police checks. Its near impossible to enforce. Here in Ireland we have perfected it to an art. I have even done it myself on numerous occassions :)
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
There will be 2 bedroom apartments in Novi Beograd with 20 residents in them.
Une,
Unfortunately, the reality is, that after WW2 and subsequently afterwards there were hundreds and thousands that did pour over the border into KiM. The Communist regimes at the time knew about this and so did Tito, who allowed it.
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
Une,
Unfortunately, the reality is, that after WW2 and subsequently afterwards there were hundreds and thousands that did pour over the border into KiM. The Communist regimes at the time knew about this and so did Tito, who allowed it.
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
(Zoran, 20 August 2009 11:08)
Damn right Zoran. The K-Albanians are entitled to Serbian passports and will get them no problem. Its easy get around any police checks. Its near impossible to enforce. Here in Ireland we have perfected it to an art. I have even done it myself on numerous occassions :)
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
There will be 2 bedroom apartments in Novi Beograd with 20 residents in them.
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came, so please spare us. Just recently after Serb army pulled out of Kosmet a big wave of even more ablanians came there. Someone has to take over Serb apartments/houses who were victims of ethnic cleansing?
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
(Niall O'Doherty, 20 August 2009 13:19)
--
Yep, they were talking amongst themselves in Albanian and then to the lady at the desk in Serbian. She queried their place of origin and they all confirmed being from Kosovo but were now temporarily residing in Belgrade. She then just handed them their licna karta and passports. I also noticed they handed in their old Blue "Yugoslav" passports.
It will be the EU that will experience a new influx of ethnic Albanians, many of whom I expect will overstay. Lets see how many ethnic Albanians do this as it looks like a fairly simple process - they come to Belgrade, register their address here and then get a new passport and licna karta. Then off to the EU to become mega wealthy! :)
"During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo"
During the 70s and 80s, Albania was one of the most isolated countries in the world, with borders sealed shut - people that could get into or outside the country were in single digits, with the totalitarian state having an iron grip of anyone's movements. The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
For anyone to claim that hundreds of thousands of Albanians crossed the border, betrays a deep lack of knowledge of the Cold War politics in the Balkans. Albania then was in a constant hostile standoff with both Greece and Yugoslavia.
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received? Can you point to even one single article that shows Albanians leaving en masse?
can you albanians explain how the population of kosovo went from 400,00 max after ww2 to 2 million today? (if no one crossed the border)
do you actually believe any of the things you say? i understand if you are trying to argue with the serbs, then your statements make sense. but if you actually believe in what you say....that would be truly scary.
Now,"If" Kosovo is Srbija,
Why cant a citizen of Srbija(Albanian, Roma, Ashkali, Serb etc) from Prishtina move to live in Serbija i.e. Belgrade.
Is i because they are not from Serbija or what.
I dont get it, is Kosovo Serbija or not. Or Kosovo is Serbija for those that buy it but not in reality.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
(MikeC, 20 August 2009 10:40)
I'm from Albania and I remember crossing the border on those years you mentioned, In fact we had approval from Enver Hoxha....Can I get one of those passports too...
Thanks in advance.
Ah forgot to mention, crossing the border with were somewhere between 20 000 to 25 000 others.
“Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands Albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.”
The uncle of my father in 70’, because of the persecution of the communist regime, attempted to illegally cross the border but he was caught by the soldier of border defense. The first consequence was a sentence of 14 years in prison and hard labor camp. Can one imagine how hundred of thousand could have crossed the border as claimed above!!! In such case we have obviously extreme high level of sub conscience from the Milosevic time.
And of course don’t let unpunished such abusive persons who sell their identity for a passport. They are disease for the relations between Balkan nations. For the moment being Balkan is a mess. People with 3 - 4 passports who mostly cause only problems and nobody knows who is and where is from.
“I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.”
As far as I have frequently read here there also Albanians living in Belgrade so is not wondering that anybody waits in turn to take his/her passport. As for the others who abuse with their addresses or whatever, the law should punish them but I am afraid that somebody would close an eye for the sake of “Kosovo is Serbia”.
“Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.”
So far no reasonable person is talking about “Greater Albania” even though that is only a political invention. The Albanians simply want their rights to be respected in their respective countries. Nothing more and nothing less than that. Concerning the EU access there are already millions of Albanians in EU. Even if the borders would be opened tomorrow only a tiny part of them could possible leave. The EU is not anymore field of flowers.
mark gregory clayter
- When Albanian population of Kosova was 400,000, the Serbian population of Serbia was 3 million. (BTW, these numbers correspond to circa 1920 populations). At the same time the population of Albania was 700,000. Today, Albania's population is 3.6 million, Kosovar Albanian 2 million and Serbia's 7.5 million. Obviously, the Albanian population of both Kosova and Albania grew up by nearly the same rate (5 times), while Serbian population by only half of that (2.5 times). The difference in natality can be explained by socio-economic conditions in the two societies. There's no evidence whatsoever to back the claim that a large number of Albanians from Albania, settled in Kosova.
On the issue of natality, there is also a difference among Albanians themselves, as with any other population: typically rural housewives have a much higher birthrate than urban working women.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
(Olf, 20 August 2009 17:06)
Yes Olf, for once you are right, K-A are better treated in Switzerland than in Kosovo wounderland that's why we have so many of them and none of them wants to return, damm right you are!
Someone told me one day to get out of the box, just can't recall who it was...
Good move! Kosova shoud also check if Serbs in Kosova are "residents" or not. If they legally list Nis as their residence, what are they doing in Kosova?
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received?
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
--
Krajina in Croatia and Kosovo were practically completely cleansed of Serbians and the Western media hardly mentioned it. Why would they care about communist Albanians entering communist Yugoslavia?
"I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times."
Ataman, how does one argue with hearsay? The history of the Cold War is very well known and documented, after all we're not talking about the stone age, but about only a few decades ago. With a little effort every one can check the newspaper archives, for example "New York Times" has online archives that anyone can search. Had 10% of Albania's population escaped from the stalinist regime, it would have certainly made big headlines in the West. So, where is the evidence that supports the claim, that hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Albania came in Kosova during the 70s and 80s?
And why would the Yugoslav government allow hundreds of thousands of Albanians to settle in Kosova, when it had hard time controlling it's own restive Albanian population in the first place?
The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
That sounds very logical and it is what we did know in 80-s being in Hungary and/or USSR.
---------
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came
(Ratko, 20 August 2009 17:42)
I did hear that, too from multiple sources.
---------
I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times.
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
Of course,technically they are citizens of Serbia(unfortunately) but we have at the moment no de facto control over our Southern province.
That is why the resettlement of Albanians into Serbia proper must be stopped immediately if there is any (which I personally doubt).
Lets find out any burocratic measures to do this ,no matter which,state for example that the current government of Kosovo that reflects the will of the Albanian people doesn`t recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia ,therefore they should have no rights to resettle to Serbia proper etc. and of course explain these measures to the Western embassies...
I am sure they don`t want a new crisis at this moment in the Balkans...
Why do i really doubt that you are albanian. There is not one piece of historucal evidence to support you claims. there was never no mass exoduc from Albania. What year are you refering to? I would like to know. My wifes family is from Kosova and her drandmother never saw her brothers or sisters untill 1990 becasue no one was allowed to leave the country.
Yugoslavia's Census -- Final Results
BY: Slobodan Stankovic
DATE: 1982-3-10
COUNTRY: Yugoslavia
'In addition to these "leading" nations in Yugoslavia, there
are 18 "nationalities" (the official name for national minorities),
of which the Albanians numbering 1,730,000 and the Hungarians
numbering 425,000 are the strongest. But while the number of
Albanians in Yugoslavia jumped from 1,309,523 in 1971 to 1,730,000
in 1981, the number of the Hungarians dropped from 477,374 in
1971 to 425,000 in 1981. The increase of Albanians in Yugoslavia
appears to be due to a very high birth rate (more than 27%), while
the real reason for the decrease of Hungarians has not yet been
thoroughly analyzed. It is, however, believed that two main
reasons might be responsible for this decrease: a low birth rate
and the fact that at least some Hungarians might have declared
themselves as "Yugoslavs" this time. '
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
(Ataman, 20 August 2009 18:54)
Well you are very persistent.A deal can be made.Serbs come to Budim,Sent Andreja,Ráckeve.(Alredy have centuries long serb traditions and population) while albanians are free to move to Mátészalka,Tatárszentgyörgy and Olaszliszka places which most suit their culture in Hungary.As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
(szemi, 20 August 2009 22:41)
Only her, no tacsi (dachshund) please. That dachsund (tacsi) is for Serbs - to lock him up for the rest of his criminal life.
As for border crossings - I am, too somewhat sceptic about large number of Albanians being able to do. On the other side as we visited Ohrid in 1980 we went to market and people did quote prices in Lek, too, not just Dinar. The move between the countries could exist - but for sure they kept very low profile and it was kept in secrecy.
An other question: why are they in the West now paranoic about Kosovars being really (ex)YU citizens or newcomers? If they really are, than indeed there were newcomers.
I beg everyone to tell the truth. It does not have much role today. All we have outside of (ex)YU and Albania is bunch of half-truth, speculation and different figures - and nothing adds up either to back or to deny. My own experience (see Ohrid) was minimal and controversal.
Why controversal:
1) if there was no move between countries, why on Earth quote prices in Lek? Dinar of 1980 was a much better currency anyway.
2) If the move was only from Albania to YU, than the newcomers would never use Lek. Political refugees in new country never use the currency of their country of origin. They are happy to forget the old days.
3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
Ataman, that sounds strange to me too, I have never heard that before. May be something was lost in translation? Maybe someone was being ironic?
(Adrian Gashi, 21 August 2009 18:24)
It was not ironic - it was a serious market day. The sellers conversed mostly in Albanian, btw. What they sold were mostly "touristy" things ( = souvenirs). Just got an idea - could happen the "Lek" numbers were added to add some authentic look and feel (for tourists)? They did not know of course, the Dinars were hard currency for us, but we could get unlimited Lek using a much better exchange rate because of special agreements***. However, we did not expect that and of course had no Lek.
-----
*** these agreements were all in place till early 90-s. Except few countries (Hungary and Poland) the rest had "forced" hard currency exchange rate which had nothing to do with reality. Exception was made for other "colleagues" and the exchange rate was close to the "black" market.
Typically: Soviet Union had "forced" exchange rate of 0.60 Rbl being 1 USD and East Germany's "forced" exchange rate was 1 DM = 1 DDM. This did apply to all countries including YU, but did not apply to COMECON + NKorea + Cuba + VietNam + Albania.
Instead, between these countries a much more realistic "average consumer basket" exchange rate was applied and it had nothing to do with the rate towards hard currency.
'3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
(Ataman, 21 August 2009 13:32) '
There was a romantic fascination among (especially) young Albanians living in Kosova with an almost mythical - because almost entirely unknown - Albania. Some actually managed to get there, where they were soon disabused of their illusions. Assuming that anything the government said was a lie was generally a useful rule in Communist countries, but it could be over-applied: Albania actually was pretty-much a hell-hole. This patriotic/romantic attachment to Albania might also account for prices being quoted in leks - it seems possible, but you'd have to ask someone who was living there at the time.
“Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands Albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.”
The uncle of my father in 70’, because of the persecution of the communist regime, attempted to illegally cross the border but he was caught by the soldier of border defense. The first consequence was a sentence of 14 years in prison and hard labor camp. Can one imagine how hundred of thousand could have crossed the border as claimed above!!! In such case we have obviously extreme high level of sub conscience from the Milosevic time.
And of course don’t let unpunished such abusive persons who sell their identity for a passport. They are disease for the relations between Balkan nations. For the moment being Balkan is a mess. People with 3 - 4 passports who mostly cause only problems and nobody knows who is and where is from.
“I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.”
As far as I have frequently read here there also Albanians living in Belgrade so is not wondering that anybody waits in turn to take his/her passport. As for the others who abuse with their addresses or whatever, the law should punish them but I am afraid that somebody would close an eye for the sake of “Kosovo is Serbia”.
“Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.”
So far no reasonable person is talking about “Greater Albania” even though that is only a political invention. The Albanians simply want their rights to be respected in their respective countries. Nothing more and nothing less than that. Concerning the EU access there are already millions of Albanians in EU. Even if the borders would be opened tomorrow only a tiny part of them could possible leave. The EU is not anymore field of flowers.
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
Now,"If" Kosovo is Srbija,
Why cant a citizen of Srbija(Albanian, Roma, Ashkali, Serb etc) from Prishtina move to live in Serbija i.e. Belgrade.
Is i because they are not from Serbija or what.
I dont get it, is Kosovo Serbija or not. Or Kosovo is Serbija for those that buy it but not in reality.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
Une,
Unfortunately, the reality is, that after WW2 and subsequently afterwards there were hundreds and thousands that did pour over the border into KiM. The Communist regimes at the time knew about this and so did Tito, who allowed it.
"..after an increase in the number of residency applications."
Serbia needs to get control over the southern parts of Serbia. During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo. They are now trying to do what they did then: invade, become a majority and start a war for independence. It's a good thing Serbs have finally woken up.
(MikeC, 20 August 2009 10:40)
I'm from Albania and I remember crossing the border on those years you mentioned, In fact we had approval from Enver Hoxha....Can I get one of those passports too...
Thanks in advance.
Ah forgot to mention, crossing the border with were somewhere between 20 000 to 25 000 others.
"During the 70s and 80s hundreds of thousands albanians crossed from Albania proper into Kosovo"
During the 70s and 80s, Albania was one of the most isolated countries in the world, with borders sealed shut - people that could get into or outside the country were in single digits, with the totalitarian state having an iron grip of anyone's movements. The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
For anyone to claim that hundreds of thousands of Albanians crossed the border, betrays a deep lack of knowledge of the Cold War politics in the Balkans. Albania then was in a constant hostile standoff with both Greece and Yugoslavia.
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received? Can you point to even one single article that shows Albanians leaving en masse?
Good move! Kosova shoud also check if Serbs in Kosova are "residents" or not. If they legally list Nis as their residence, what are they doing in Kosova?
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
mark gregory clayter
- When Albanian population of Kosova was 400,000, the Serbian population of Serbia was 3 million. (BTW, these numbers correspond to circa 1920 populations). At the same time the population of Albania was 700,000. Today, Albania's population is 3.6 million, Kosovar Albanian 2 million and Serbia's 7.5 million. Obviously, the Albanian population of both Kosova and Albania grew up by nearly the same rate (5 times), while Serbian population by only half of that (2.5 times). The difference in natality can be explained by socio-economic conditions in the two societies. There's no evidence whatsoever to back the claim that a large number of Albanians from Albania, settled in Kosova.
On the issue of natality, there is also a difference among Albanians themselves, as with any other population: typically rural housewives have a much higher birthrate than urban working women.
I went to pick up my childrens Serbian passports today in Belgrade and there were 6 ethnic Albanians in front of me waiting to pick up theirs. I expect a huge influx of our citizens from Kosovo to register at an address out of the province.
Although our Serbian citizens of Albanian ethnicity talk about Greater Albania and snatching land from all neighbours they would be the first to abandon this land for access to the EU. That includes those from Albania proper.
(Zoran, 20 August 2009 11:08)
Damn right Zoran. The K-Albanians are entitled to Serbian passports and will get them no problem. Its easy get around any police checks. Its near impossible to enforce. Here in Ireland we have perfected it to an art. I have even done it myself on numerous occassions :)
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
There will be 2 bedroom apartments in Novi Beograd with 20 residents in them.
can you albanians explain how the population of kosovo went from 400,00 max after ww2 to 2 million today? (if no one crossed the border)
do you actually believe any of the things you say? i understand if you are trying to argue with the serbs, then your statements make sense. but if you actually believe in what you say....that would be truly scary.
"I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times."
Ataman, how does one argue with hearsay? The history of the Cold War is very well known and documented, after all we're not talking about the stone age, but about only a few decades ago. With a little effort every one can check the newspaper archives, for example "New York Times" has online archives that anyone can search. Had 10% of Albania's population escaped from the stalinist regime, it would have certainly made big headlines in the West. So, where is the evidence that supports the claim, that hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Albania came in Kosova during the 70s and 80s?
And why would the Yugoslav government allow hundreds of thousands of Albanians to settle in Kosova, when it had hard time controlling it's own restive Albanian population in the first place?
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came, so please spare us. Just recently after Serb army pulled out of Kosmet a big wave of even more ablanians came there. Someone has to take over Serb apartments/houses who were victims of ethnic cleansing?
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
(Ataman, 20 August 2009 18:54)
Well you are very persistent.A deal can be made.Serbs come to Budim,Sent Andreja,Ráckeve.(Alredy have centuries long serb traditions and population) while albanians are free to move to Mátészalka,Tatárszentgyörgy and Olaszliszka places which most suit their culture in Hungary.As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
Why do i really doubt that you are albanian. There is not one piece of historucal evidence to support you claims. there was never no mass exoduc from Albania. What year are you refering to? I would like to know. My wifes family is from Kosova and her drandmother never saw her brothers or sisters untill 1990 becasue no one was allowed to leave the country.
Expect Agim to get onto the phone to Gjon in Belgrade, if he hasnt done so already.
(Niall O'Doherty, 20 August 2009 13:19)
--
Yep, they were talking amongst themselves in Albanian and then to the lady at the desk in Serbian. She queried their place of origin and they all confirmed being from Kosovo but were now temporarily residing in Belgrade. She then just handed them their licna karta and passports. I also noticed they handed in their old Blue "Yugoslav" passports.
It will be the EU that will experience a new influx of ethnic Albanians, many of whom I expect will overstay. Lets see how many ethnic Albanians do this as it looks like a fairly simple process - they come to Belgrade, register their address here and then get a new passport and licna karta. Then off to the EU to become mega wealthy! :)
The Sigurimi, Border Guards, the Army and the Police patrolled the border - that was an electrified fence known as "Kloni" - day and night to make sure that the socialist "paradise" had no contact whatsoever with the outside world. Until 1990, Albanian citizens could not even own a passport!
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
That sounds very logical and it is what we did know in 80-s being in Hungary and/or USSR.
---------
There were lots and lots of albanians in Kosmet who came from albania. Every year more and more came
(Ratko, 20 August 2009 17:42)
I did hear that, too from multiple sources.
---------
I have no idea who is correct because both claims seem to be true.
So this time both make your best efforts to convince me. Maybe even both claims are correct - just not at different times.
In any case fine with me, Serbs can give us more Albanians, Albanians can give us more Serbs - we can give you in exchange our politicians. Keep them forever and don't let them go back.
Albania's population in the 70s and 80s was roughly 2-2.5 million. Even 2 hundred thousand, would've been 10% of the population. Can you imagine the amount of press in the west, such a big number leaving a communist country, would've received?
(Adrian Gashi, 20 August 2009 16:52)
--
Krajina in Croatia and Kosovo were practically completely cleansed of Serbians and the Western media hardly mentioned it. Why would they care about communist Albanians entering communist Yugoslavia?
Yugoslavia's Census -- Final Results
BY: Slobodan Stankovic
DATE: 1982-3-10
COUNTRY: Yugoslavia
'In addition to these "leading" nations in Yugoslavia, there
are 18 "nationalities" (the official name for national minorities),
of which the Albanians numbering 1,730,000 and the Hungarians
numbering 425,000 are the strongest. But while the number of
Albanians in Yugoslavia jumped from 1,309,523 in 1971 to 1,730,000
in 1981, the number of the Hungarians dropped from 477,374 in
1971 to 425,000 in 1981. The increase of Albanians in Yugoslavia
appears to be due to a very high birth rate (more than 27%), while
the real reason for the decrease of Hungarians has not yet been
thoroughly analyzed. It is, however, believed that two main
reasons might be responsible for this decrease: a low birth rate
and the fact that at least some Hungarians might have declared
themselves as "Yugoslavs" this time. '
Ataman, that sounds strange to me too, I have never heard that before. May be something was lost in translation? Maybe someone was being ironic?
(Adrian Gashi, 21 August 2009 18:24)
It was not ironic - it was a serious market day. The sellers conversed mostly in Albanian, btw. What they sold were mostly "touristy" things ( = souvenirs). Just got an idea - could happen the "Lek" numbers were added to add some authentic look and feel (for tourists)? They did not know of course, the Dinars were hard currency for us, but we could get unlimited Lek using a much better exchange rate because of special agreements***. However, we did not expect that and of course had no Lek.
-----
*** these agreements were all in place till early 90-s. Except few countries (Hungary and Poland) the rest had "forced" hard currency exchange rate which had nothing to do with reality. Exception was made for other "colleagues" and the exchange rate was close to the "black" market.
Typically: Soviet Union had "forced" exchange rate of 0.60 Rbl being 1 USD and East Germany's "forced" exchange rate was 1 DM = 1 DDM. This did apply to all countries including YU, but did not apply to COMECON + NKorea + Cuba + VietNam + Albania.
Instead, between these countries a much more realistic "average consumer basket" exchange rate was applied and it had nothing to do with the rate towards hard currency.
With this Serbian gov. has slapped in the face K-Serbs, those that were so happy about White Schengen. K-Serbs belived to move out of Kosova but not in Serbiaj but in the West, where they are treated much better than in Serbia.
(Olf, 20 August 2009 17:06)
Yes Olf, for once you are right, K-A are better treated in Switzerland than in Kosovo wounderland that's why we have so many of them and none of them wants to return, damm right you are!
Someone told me one day to get out of the box, just can't recall who it was...
As for Citaku I do not object her getting a residence in Budim probably in a representative place like Mátyás squre where she can find many good pastries and take long walks with her dachshund.
(szemi, 20 August 2009 22:41)
Only her, no tacsi (dachshund) please. That dachsund (tacsi) is for Serbs - to lock him up for the rest of his criminal life.
As for border crossings - I am, too somewhat sceptic about large number of Albanians being able to do. On the other side as we visited Ohrid in 1980 we went to market and people did quote prices in Lek, too, not just Dinar. The move between the countries could exist - but for sure they kept very low profile and it was kept in secrecy.
An other question: why are they in the West now paranoic about Kosovars being really (ex)YU citizens or newcomers? If they really are, than indeed there were newcomers.
I beg everyone to tell the truth. It does not have much role today. All we have outside of (ex)YU and Albania is bunch of half-truth, speculation and different figures - and nothing adds up either to back or to deny. My own experience (see Ohrid) was minimal and controversal.
Why controversal:
1) if there was no move between countries, why on Earth quote prices in Lek? Dinar of 1980 was a much better currency anyway.
2) If the move was only from Albania to YU, than the newcomers would never use Lek. Political refugees in new country never use the currency of their country of origin. They are happy to forget the old days.
3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
Of course,technically they are citizens of Serbia(unfortunately) but we have at the moment no de facto control over our Southern province.
That is why the resettlement of Albanians into Serbia proper must be stopped immediately if there is any (which I personally doubt).
Lets find out any burocratic measures to do this ,no matter which,state for example that the current government of Kosovo that reflects the will of the Albanian people doesn`t recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia ,therefore they should have no rights to resettle to Serbia proper etc. and of course explain these measures to the Western embassies...
I am sure they don`t want a new crisis at this moment in the Balkans...
'3) If indeed people moved both ways as it looks - why on Earth someone would RETURN to Albania in 1980?
(Ataman, 21 August 2009 13:32) '
There was a romantic fascination among (especially) young Albanians living in Kosova with an almost mythical - because almost entirely unknown - Albania. Some actually managed to get there, where they were soon disabused of their illusions. Assuming that anything the government said was a lie was generally a useful rule in Communist countries, but it could be over-applied: Albania actually was pretty-much a hell-hole. This patriotic/romantic attachment to Albania might also account for prices being quoted in leks - it seems possible, but you'd have to ask someone who was living there at the time.
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