You write : “ UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis … So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushenko committed treason against his country? … What does it have to do with now? “
1/ As you must know should Victor reveal his father’s biography in the Ukraine which had lost about 6 millions in WW2 he would have zero chances for presidency cause 90% of the people there have the same angle of vision of the events as we Russians have. So the truth is important. Especially when you know that an apple does not fall far from the apple tree.
2/ After massacring the Poles in Volin ( see http://oun-upa.org.ua/ru/history.html ) UPA started active cooperation with the Nazi . Being hated by 90% of the Ukrainians their activity was limited and took place only in western regions for the people took them as fascists. See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%90
3/ I agree you when you say that all there partisan movements ( AK+ OUN + UPA ) during WW2 fought against the bloody Soviet regime of Stalin which later set you all free. Now tell it to the Serbs also so that they know that their grandfathers fought on the wrong side.
4/ I can also agree that all 3 mentioned partisan movements had episodic clashed with the Nazi. As we know AK has united Polish partisans in 1943 and de facto stopped to exist in January 1945. The only year they fought Germans was 1944 when according to their own reports to London they killed “more than a thousand” of Germans , blown up some 200 bridges ect. If you compare these figures with the losses Nazi suffered in twice smaller Yugoslavia you will be disgraced. Also it is about 250-300 times less than they killed Soviet citizens in Ukraine and Belorussia. So let’s stop here. You keep on insisting that AK was an anti-Hitler force and I know for sure that they were not.
5/ Returning to Andrey Yushenko we have to state that we have evidence that he served the Germans and in the chaos of war managed to escape punishment.( I have read the of the Israeli book. ). But we have no evidence that he served them on political reasons. But even if it were so he was a traitor to fly to our rivals and if revealed would be shot immediately. His son’s treason of Russia brought to the fall of his electorate. As you know he enjoys the support of some 2-3% of the peoples mostly living on the Polish border.
6/ Concerning OUN-UPA you have to know that they do not hide that out of the two enemies they preferred to fight us. As you know these two formally separate organizations were united by the Germans and were headed by Germans officers like Melnikov , Bendera ect. You also must know that especially OUN was greatly formed by the personnel of battalion NACHTIGAL and division GALICHINA.
7/ In any case fighting the damned ( as everything Russian ) Stalin’s regime as the main striking force of the Anti-Hitler coalition your beloved AK+OUN+UPA fought thus against the USA against the UK, against Poland , Kosovo , Iraq , Afghanistan and other symbols of progress and democracy.
P.S. Piotr I am really disappointed that after all the time I spent to open your eyes you remained the same. What’s going on ? Are we going crazy ? Read yesterday’s statement of Frau Merkel concerning heroisation of fascism in the Ukraine and please stop your propaganda.
"Respects and defends international law" is a relative term. Russia "respects and defends" no more and no less than China, Iran, the United States, and Great Britain.
States will "respect and defend" international law when it suits their strategic ends, and cut through the gas station to bypass the red light when it doesn't.
"The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population."
Ataman, so true! Too bad you forgot to mention Turkmenbashi fellow. I was just having a good laugh the other days with a guy I know from Turkmenistan on how Niyazov heard of Napoleonian Civil Code so he ordered the Turkmenbashi Civil Code (story is longer but that's the idea).
On the other hand, clock is ticking, time is running and more and more people that were not born in the Soviet Union are reaching maturity and most of them like to have their own country and prefer their native language over russian.
Orthodox.ru, come on we're not 5 year olds, if Yush would have been a Kremlin foot-kisser he would have been defined by the propaganda as a trustworthy, rightous, brave politician. He is not, but neither is Medveputin or any other president.
There is already a problem with this article where it claims that OUN-UPA were on the side of the Nazis.
UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis, they were nationalist armies, NOT national socialist armies.
So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushchenko committed treason against his country?
Anyway, who cares? It was 60 years ago. They also accused Tusk, because his grandfather was in the Wehrmacht (before you say anything, he is ethnic Kaszub, not Polish). What does it have to do with now?
Anything I say about Yushenko will look like a revenge for his treason If I say that he is a traitor and he is the son of a traitor most of will grin and say that a Russian cannot be objective concerning this man so hereby I offer you a link with the Jewish vision of this family. http://www.regnum.ru/english/986276.html What I like in the Jews is that they have no compromise over the matters of WW2. For instance they were the only Western state to protest fascism rising head in the Baltic Waffen SS part of EU.
By the way I almost forgat. Russia is going to invest 500 mil in Abhkazi for military hardware among other things. Now, considering the number of population there including S.O. it means even unborn babies are soldiers armed to their teeth. Come on guys , this is a joke of the century.
Ukrain will give Russia a run for its money.
In the last two decades I successfully grew to dislike oranges.They are so sour nowdays.First that party in Hungary then that revolution in kiev.What comes next?
Now we know for sure that Russia respects and defeands International laws.
(Kosova-USA, 14 August 2009 11:42)
Regardless, during his reign Yuschenko did prove with real deeds: he should be among the last you should rely to get any kind of knowledge from.
Not short on promises, but very short on deeds and he did not bring the promised improvement. Otherwise he would not be in deep hole where he is right now.
That "orange revolution" turned out to be a lemon, I guess.
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
(Leonidas, 14 August 2009 11:44)
Indeed - but what the geniuses in State Dept. do not see: Georgia and in particular Ukraina is so deeply mingled with Russia and v.v. that it does take a gigantic effort to "unmingle" all of that.
As for Ukraina: pick up any random phone number and call it. There is a very high probability, no Ukrainian will be spoken on the other end.
The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population. Most notable exceptions are the Baltic republics and probably Moldova. The rest was about to replace the Moscow-nomenclatura with the local one. This is in particular true to Kazakhstan, Ukraina and Belarus.
The only reason these "countries" do exist today is because the local nomenclatura does not want to give up.
I think, the "West" would be mightly surprised with the result of a really free CIS-wide election: the majority of people would vote for restoration of Soviet Union, but in form of a "better union".
And eventually it will happen, does State Department want it or not, because the majority of people want it.
Yushchenko has been playing a dangerous game with Russia for some time now.
His cheer leaders G Bush and Conti Rice have gone and with
more pressing problems for US
all around he's been left hanging dry.Thye message from Obama is "sort out your own problrms with the Russians".
Moreover,as soon as the Russians start building the new Southstream pipeline through the black sea Ukraine will lose its power over the gas transit lines an sink into irrelevance again and virtual bankruptsy.
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
Yushchenko has been playing a dangerous game with Russia for some time now.
His cheer leaders G Bush and Conti Rice have gone and with
more pressing problems for US
all around he's been left hanging dry.Thye message from Obama is "sort out your own problrms with the Russians".
Moreover,as soon as the Russians start building the new Southstream pipeline through the black sea Ukraine will lose its power over the gas transit lines an sink into irrelevance again and virtual bankruptsy.
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
(Leonidas, 14 August 2009 11:44)
Indeed - but what the geniuses in State Dept. do not see: Georgia and in particular Ukraina is so deeply mingled with Russia and v.v. that it does take a gigantic effort to "unmingle" all of that.
As for Ukraina: pick up any random phone number and call it. There is a very high probability, no Ukrainian will be spoken on the other end.
The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population. Most notable exceptions are the Baltic republics and probably Moldova. The rest was about to replace the Moscow-nomenclatura with the local one. This is in particular true to Kazakhstan, Ukraina and Belarus.
The only reason these "countries" do exist today is because the local nomenclatura does not want to give up.
I think, the "West" would be mightly surprised with the result of a really free CIS-wide election: the majority of people would vote for restoration of Soviet Union, but in form of a "better union".
And eventually it will happen, does State Department want it or not, because the majority of people want it.
Now we know for sure that Russia respects and defeands International laws.
(Kosova-USA, 14 August 2009 11:42)
Regardless, during his reign Yuschenko did prove with real deeds: he should be among the last you should rely to get any kind of knowledge from.
Not short on promises, but very short on deeds and he did not bring the promised improvement. Otherwise he would not be in deep hole where he is right now.
That "orange revolution" turned out to be a lemon, I guess.
In the last two decades I successfully grew to dislike oranges.They are so sour nowdays.First that party in Hungary then that revolution in kiev.What comes next?
Anything I say about Yushenko will look like a revenge for his treason If I say that he is a traitor and he is the son of a traitor most of will grin and say that a Russian cannot be objective concerning this man so hereby I offer you a link with the Jewish vision of this family. http://www.regnum.ru/english/986276.html What I like in the Jews is that they have no compromise over the matters of WW2. For instance they were the only Western state to protest fascism rising head in the Baltic Waffen SS part of EU.
There is already a problem with this article where it claims that OUN-UPA were on the side of the Nazis.
UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis, they were nationalist armies, NOT national socialist armies.
So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushchenko committed treason against his country?
Anyway, who cares? It was 60 years ago. They also accused Tusk, because his grandfather was in the Wehrmacht (before you say anything, he is ethnic Kaszub, not Polish). What does it have to do with now?
"Respects and defends international law" is a relative term. Russia "respects and defends" no more and no less than China, Iran, the United States, and Great Britain.
States will "respect and defend" international law when it suits their strategic ends, and cut through the gas station to bypass the red light when it doesn't.
By the way I almost forgat. Russia is going to invest 500 mil in Abhkazi for military hardware among other things. Now, considering the number of population there including S.O. it means even unborn babies are soldiers armed to their teeth. Come on guys , this is a joke of the century.
Ukrain will give Russia a run for its money.
You write : “ UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis … So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushenko committed treason against his country? … What does it have to do with now? “
1/ As you must know should Victor reveal his father’s biography in the Ukraine which had lost about 6 millions in WW2 he would have zero chances for presidency cause 90% of the people there have the same angle of vision of the events as we Russians have. So the truth is important. Especially when you know that an apple does not fall far from the apple tree.
2/ After massacring the Poles in Volin ( see http://oun-upa.org.ua/ru/history.html ) UPA started active cooperation with the Nazi . Being hated by 90% of the Ukrainians their activity was limited and took place only in western regions for the people took them as fascists. See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%90
3/ I agree you when you say that all there partisan movements ( AK+ OUN + UPA ) during WW2 fought against the bloody Soviet regime of Stalin which later set you all free. Now tell it to the Serbs also so that they know that their grandfathers fought on the wrong side.
4/ I can also agree that all 3 mentioned partisan movements had episodic clashed with the Nazi. As we know AK has united Polish partisans in 1943 and de facto stopped to exist in January 1945. The only year they fought Germans was 1944 when according to their own reports to London they killed “more than a thousand” of Germans , blown up some 200 bridges ect. If you compare these figures with the losses Nazi suffered in twice smaller Yugoslavia you will be disgraced. Also it is about 250-300 times less than they killed Soviet citizens in Ukraine and Belorussia. So let’s stop here. You keep on insisting that AK was an anti-Hitler force and I know for sure that they were not.
5/ Returning to Andrey Yushenko we have to state that we have evidence that he served the Germans and in the chaos of war managed to escape punishment.( I have read the of the Israeli book. ). But we have no evidence that he served them on political reasons. But even if it were so he was a traitor to fly to our rivals and if revealed would be shot immediately. His son’s treason of Russia brought to the fall of his electorate. As you know he enjoys the support of some 2-3% of the peoples mostly living on the Polish border.
6/ Concerning OUN-UPA you have to know that they do not hide that out of the two enemies they preferred to fight us. As you know these two formally separate organizations were united by the Germans and were headed by Germans officers like Melnikov , Bendera ect. You also must know that especially OUN was greatly formed by the personnel of battalion NACHTIGAL and division GALICHINA.
7/ In any case fighting the damned ( as everything Russian ) Stalin’s regime as the main striking force of the Anti-Hitler coalition your beloved AK+OUN+UPA fought thus against the USA against the UK, against Poland , Kosovo , Iraq , Afghanistan and other symbols of progress and democracy.
P.S. Piotr I am really disappointed that after all the time I spent to open your eyes you remained the same. What’s going on ? Are we going crazy ? Read yesterday’s statement of Frau Merkel concerning heroisation of fascism in the Ukraine and please stop your propaganda.
"The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population."
Ataman, so true! Too bad you forgot to mention Turkmenbashi fellow. I was just having a good laugh the other days with a guy I know from Turkmenistan on how Niyazov heard of Napoleonian Civil Code so he ordered the Turkmenbashi Civil Code (story is longer but that's the idea).
On the other hand, clock is ticking, time is running and more and more people that were not born in the Soviet Union are reaching maturity and most of them like to have their own country and prefer their native language over russian.
Orthodox.ru, come on we're not 5 year olds, if Yush would have been a Kremlin foot-kisser he would have been defined by the propaganda as a trustworthy, rightous, brave politician. He is not, but neither is Medveputin or any other president.
By the way I almost forgat. Russia is going to invest 500 mil in Abhkazi for military hardware among other things. Now, considering the number of population there including S.O. it means even unborn babies are soldiers armed to their teeth. Come on guys , this is a joke of the century.
Ukrain will give Russia a run for its money.
In the last two decades I successfully grew to dislike oranges.They are so sour nowdays.First that party in Hungary then that revolution in kiev.What comes next?
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
(Leonidas, 14 August 2009 11:44)
Indeed - but what the geniuses in State Dept. do not see: Georgia and in particular Ukraina is so deeply mingled with Russia and v.v. that it does take a gigantic effort to "unmingle" all of that.
As for Ukraina: pick up any random phone number and call it. There is a very high probability, no Ukrainian will be spoken on the other end.
The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population. Most notable exceptions are the Baltic republics and probably Moldova. The rest was about to replace the Moscow-nomenclatura with the local one. This is in particular true to Kazakhstan, Ukraina and Belarus.
The only reason these "countries" do exist today is because the local nomenclatura does not want to give up.
I think, the "West" would be mightly surprised with the result of a really free CIS-wide election: the majority of people would vote for restoration of Soviet Union, but in form of a "better union".
And eventually it will happen, does State Department want it or not, because the majority of people want it.
Yushchenko has been playing a dangerous game with Russia for some time now.
His cheer leaders G Bush and Conti Rice have gone and with
more pressing problems for US
all around he's been left hanging dry.Thye message from Obama is "sort out your own problrms with the Russians".
Moreover,as soon as the Russians start building the new Southstream pipeline through the black sea Ukraine will lose its power over the gas transit lines an sink into irrelevance again and virtual bankruptsy.
Although is not up to the Russians to change the leadershps of Ukraine and Georgia the reality on the ground will make it virtually impossible for either country to continue with the present leaderships.
Anything I say about Yushenko will look like a revenge for his treason If I say that he is a traitor and he is the son of a traitor most of will grin and say that a Russian cannot be objective concerning this man so hereby I offer you a link with the Jewish vision of this family. http://www.regnum.ru/english/986276.html What I like in the Jews is that they have no compromise over the matters of WW2. For instance they were the only Western state to protest fascism rising head in the Baltic Waffen SS part of EU.
There is already a problem with this article where it claims that OUN-UPA were on the side of the Nazis.
UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis, they were nationalist armies, NOT national socialist armies.
So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushchenko committed treason against his country?
Anyway, who cares? It was 60 years ago. They also accused Tusk, because his grandfather was in the Wehrmacht (before you say anything, he is ethnic Kaszub, not Polish). What does it have to do with now?
"The break-up of Soviet Union was in large part due local party elite not wanting to depend on Moscow, not due local population."
Ataman, so true! Too bad you forgot to mention Turkmenbashi fellow. I was just having a good laugh the other days with a guy I know from Turkmenistan on how Niyazov heard of Napoleonian Civil Code so he ordered the Turkmenbashi Civil Code (story is longer but that's the idea).
On the other hand, clock is ticking, time is running and more and more people that were not born in the Soviet Union are reaching maturity and most of them like to have their own country and prefer their native language over russian.
Orthodox.ru, come on we're not 5 year olds, if Yush would have been a Kremlin foot-kisser he would have been defined by the propaganda as a trustworthy, rightous, brave politician. He is not, but neither is Medveputin or any other president.
"Respects and defends international law" is a relative term. Russia "respects and defends" no more and no less than China, Iran, the United States, and Great Britain.
States will "respect and defend" international law when it suits their strategic ends, and cut through the gas station to bypass the red light when it doesn't.
You write : “ UPA, like the AK, fought for their countries AGAINST both the Soviets AND the Nazis … So since these people fought for their countries against foreign, oppressive regimes (led by Hitler and Stalin), how has Yushenko committed treason against his country? … What does it have to do with now? “
1/ As you must know should Victor reveal his father’s biography in the Ukraine which had lost about 6 millions in WW2 he would have zero chances for presidency cause 90% of the people there have the same angle of vision of the events as we Russians have. So the truth is important. Especially when you know that an apple does not fall far from the apple tree.
2/ After massacring the Poles in Volin ( see http://oun-upa.org.ua/ru/history.html ) UPA started active cooperation with the Nazi . Being hated by 90% of the Ukrainians their activity was limited and took place only in western regions for the people took them as fascists. See http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%90
3/ I agree you when you say that all there partisan movements ( AK+ OUN + UPA ) during WW2 fought against the bloody Soviet regime of Stalin which later set you all free. Now tell it to the Serbs also so that they know that their grandfathers fought on the wrong side.
4/ I can also agree that all 3 mentioned partisan movements had episodic clashed with the Nazi. As we know AK has united Polish partisans in 1943 and de facto stopped to exist in January 1945. The only year they fought Germans was 1944 when according to their own reports to London they killed “more than a thousand” of Germans , blown up some 200 bridges ect. If you compare these figures with the losses Nazi suffered in twice smaller Yugoslavia you will be disgraced. Also it is about 250-300 times less than they killed Soviet citizens in Ukraine and Belorussia. So let’s stop here. You keep on insisting that AK was an anti-Hitler force and I know for sure that they were not.
5/ Returning to Andrey Yushenko we have to state that we have evidence that he served the Germans and in the chaos of war managed to escape punishment.( I have read the of the Israeli book. ). But we have no evidence that he served them on political reasons. But even if it were so he was a traitor to fly to our rivals and if revealed would be shot immediately. His son’s treason of Russia brought to the fall of his electorate. As you know he enjoys the support of some 2-3% of the peoples mostly living on the Polish border.
6/ Concerning OUN-UPA you have to know that they do not hide that out of the two enemies they preferred to fight us. As you know these two formally separate organizations were united by the Germans and were headed by Germans officers like Melnikov , Bendera ect. You also must know that especially OUN was greatly formed by the personnel of battalion NACHTIGAL and division GALICHINA.
7/ In any case fighting the damned ( as everything Russian ) Stalin’s regime as the main striking force of the Anti-Hitler coalition your beloved AK+OUN+UPA fought thus against the USA against the UK, against Poland , Kosovo , Iraq , Afghanistan and other symbols of progress and democracy.
P.S. Piotr I am really disappointed that after all the time I spent to open your eyes you remained the same. What’s going on ? Are we going crazy ? Read yesterday’s statement of Frau Merkel concerning heroisation of fascism in the Ukraine and please stop your propaganda.
Now we know for sure that Russia respects and defeands International laws.
(Kosova-USA, 14 August 2009 11:42)
Regardless, during his reign Yuschenko did prove with real deeds: he should be among the last you should rely to get any kind of knowledge from.
Not short on promises, but very short on deeds and he did not bring the promised improvement. Otherwise he would not be in deep hole where he is right now.
That "orange revolution" turned out to be a lemon, I guess.
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