"Medvedev charge aimed at nation"

No, Ukraine is defenitely not Georgia. In Ukraine, half of the country's population (25 millions that is) are self-determined as russian nationals and support Russia as their own motherland and not Ukraine. So it is definetely not Georgia... is even better for Russia.

Medvedev has a valid point point as far as Ukraine's attitude towards Russia is concerned.

One rembembers the dispute about gas supplies last year when Ukraine was caught siphoning gas destined for the European Market.

Those actions demonstrate with all desirable clarity why the Nord Stream pipeline is an absolute necessity if Russian gas supplies to Europe are to be maintained. All land-based alternatives are subject to the same weaknesses and abuse that vitiate the present pipeline through the Ukraine.

The Ukraine economy is and has been in deep crisis since
the the leaders of the orange revolution,previously lionised by the US neocons, came into power.At the same time ,they continue their hostile propaganda against Russia by engaging in military exercises with NATO and seeking membership .

Ukraine is in a limbo.The EU and NATO have made it clear that there won't be any membership offerings now or in the future.

With an economy in total collapse i cannot see how the present Ukraine leadershi can survive any longer.

Kosovo-USA

Half of Ukrains population is Russian. Therefore Russia has more reason/right to get engaged in their affairs than America has in Irak, Afganistan, Serbia, South America, the Middle Eeast etc etc. Who are you to tell who where and when they can and can not interfere?

Peter Sudyka

1/ You may see my respond for your previous post here http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=61084

2/ We two know that the Ukraine battle is the same battle in Georgia. And both of us know the Polish role in the problems we have in the Ukraine. ( Our problems in Belorussia are caused only by Luka. ) We also know that the Ukraine battle is the main one. On this “Great Chess Desk” the Ukraine is the main price. Remember the elder Zbignev :”Russia plus the Ukraine is a Superpower again” and it’s the nightmare of all the Poles worldwide.

3/ The long list of our international rivals was shocked with the unexpected massive support the head of Moscow Orthodox Church has received recently in the Ukraine. Any local politician would dream to enjoy 50% of that support and trust.

4/ I liked the whole text of what Medvedev said to your spy. The main result is that since now on we dare again to be ourselves and in one way or another we are going to return what must belong to us. Russia is not going to swallow the two other Russian states. We’ll be satisfied to have friendly regimes there. They are us and we are them.

5/ Next year both Ushenko and Saakasvili will live either in Poland or the USA. Poland won’t be able to defend them from the Interpol so they will sooner settle Overseas.

6/ “ Actually, it's about 8 million people that are Russian in Ukraine. Ukrainians do not see themselves as Russians, they see themselves as Ukrainians (well, they are Ukrainians, they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians).”

--- Please stop this disinformation and polonisms ! If you do not know that RUSSIAN SOUNDS VERY PROUD it is your personal problem.

--- We have from 12 to 15 millions of those who say they are Russians and 8 million is the figure Yushenko would like to have. Though all of them are Russians ! Even those who told you in Lviv all these bullsh …

--- 200 years the Germans and later the Poles created differences between the western Russians and the rest of the people. If you ask to I will tell you the details you pretend not to know. Later in 1922 six big Russian regions in the East were presented by the Communists to the Ukraine under a pretext “to increase the Proletarian elements in Malorossia” Then they went from home to home and started to persuade Russian peoples to call themselves Ukrainians. Many protested but many said yes cause they feared for their lives. In 1954 we presented Crimea ect.

--- I too would not like to be a Pole but I accept you as you are cause even the Poles the trees and the beasts and the mountains were made by the Almighty. How dare you to judge him ! Who the Hell you think you are to say “they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians”

--- If you are so educated please give me a link where before 1897 “Ukraine” is mentioned as an ethnic community but not a geographical termination. When you fail to please tell me where they have fallen from if they appeared in the end of the 19 century. Who were their ancestors and why exept Canada we do not have any Ukrainian emigration ?

To Peter

I agree with you.As you may know Ukraine right now is surviving on IMF loans-$26billion this year- and requires huge additional funding in future.

My point is that i cannot see
a way out.Rejected by the West and Russia i can see the country slipping into social troubles in the very near future.

Peter:

Putin/Medvedev have clearly stated they will use military force to protect their citizens outside of Russia as they should! If that western puppet government is stupid enough to listen to uncle sam then they will do great harm to their country/citizens, just like Sakasvili did.

To Peter Sudyka - comment 4:

Peter, according to official data (that are published by the ukranian authorities) 30% of the countrie's population are russian nationals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

So it is definetely more than 8 million people who define themselves as russians (and not 8 million as you falsely mention), even according to the Ukranian data. So, if the Ukranian (and totally US-controlled and anti-russian) authorities count them as 30% of the total countrie's population, I suspect they must be about 50% in reality...

Peter Sudyka, 13 August 2009 08:38

1. You have really surprised me with the Magyarorsag-Polska brotherhood. I never knew that you may have a single friendly nation. Though we have dozens of them - OK you have won !
2. The way Ossetia and Abkhasia are de facto parts of Russia Georgia is a de facto part of NATO. Moreover it is the most reliable and easy to operate part of NATO where no consensus is required. During 5 years it has been equipped and trained according to NATO standards. They just replaced useless M-16 rifles for AK-74 and expensive US Abrahams for cheap T-72 modernized by another NATO gendarme Israel. By the way in SO we have dead bodies of several instructors from Israel and the USA.
3. Concerning “being good enough” for police operations thousands miles away from Wisla I agree you may be good. But concerning good Polish warriors I have too little evidence. Maybe you mean 1939 when 1 200 000 Poles for 3 weeks were resisting 1 100 000 Germans or those several hundreds armed Poles which escaped any contact with the Germans during all 5 years of occupation ?
4. I agree with you in that 1999 we should have stood by the side of our Orthodox brothers in arms. One regiment seized the Pristina airport and not a single bitch has dared to open it’s damned mouth cause in NATO they also want to live. So you are right we should have supplied them S-300 missiles to defend them from the air cause on the land they would definitely destroy the NATO machine by themselves. In 1999 NATO could afford about 1000 dead bodies for the USA + about 300 for Europe while Serbs were ready to pay any price required. Besides during WW2 they have obtained partisan experience never known in Poland or any other occupied state.

If Russia thinks that Unkrain is Georgia, they are in for a big suprise. I hope to god that Russia will not start an adventure like it did in Georgia, becasue all hell will break loose.

By the way, I'll say move your black navy fleet to junk yard near Mascow, since is outdated and rusty.

Ukraine is a falling skeleton and has no chance to survive unless they get back at the table with the russian.

What is left from the orchestred orange revolution apart from two hyper ego "leaders"....?

A wind of panic is blowing now from the US to try to "save" Ukraine from getting closer to Russia by pushing Nato in, but the world is changing rapidely and fortunately the EU is slowly opening it's eyes, leaded by Germany and France, being noy do kean anymore to blindly follow the destructive US foreign policy!

Peter Sudyka, 13 August 2009 13:52

“Yes, but what makes you think that the Ukraine would want to join Russia again?”
*** According to Gallup Agency 57% of them say that the most friendly country to the Ukraine is Russia and 28% say that it is Belorussia which is also a part of the Russian world. Now put them together to have the optimistic 81%.

“Religion and politics are two different things”

*** Don’t pretend to be naïve ! All Ukrainian politicians together cannot gather half the crowd meeting Kirill in every city he visited. And you say it is not politics ? It was such a shock to the local elites to witness that the Russian Church is the most influential power in the Ukraine. It was a shock for Washington and Lvov and Warsaw. And now you pretend not to see what has happened. Don’t you see the connection between the statement of Medvedev and the visit of Kirill ? Those are the chains of the same politics we are going to conduct here.

“what did Yushchenko do that you think he deserves to be arrested by Interpol for?”

*** If you can afford the whole text of Medvedev’s statement you will find the answer . He said that Ukraine has become a partner in the barbarian assault at SO and those responsible for the fact that most of the Russian citizens and peacekeeprs were killed by the Ukrainian armaments will be prosecuted.

“I meant no offense against Russians with this statement”

*** I shall trust you if you write here and now that RUSSIAN SOUNDS UTMOST PROUD ! That Russians saved the Poles and the whole Europe , that we sent our spaceships while the Poles were still sitting on the trees ect. You may not understand that ethnically even Yushenko ( with his polizei father ) is a Russian that another Ukrainian nationalist Timoshenko was born from her Jewish mother and Jewish father , that their new national hero Hauptman Stephan Bandera has been awarded with the Iron Kross personally by Adolf Hitler ect. But how dare you to say that millions of peoples are stupid not to know who were their ancestors.

“Rote, that would be like me saying that Czechs and Slovaks are Poles”

*** We have close to 15 millions of pure Russians there who do not know the Ukrainian language and who has never stopped to be Russian. We have another 15 millions in the central part of the state who say that they are Ukrainians and who do not know the language. Outside western (polish) regions in none of the cities or towns you will hear the Ukrainian language in the streets. Even in Kiev.

“I have never heard of this.”

*** Poles , Russian Bolshevics , the Austrian Germans , the Hungarians , the Americans and Ukrainian nationalists, mosly hated each other but all of them were united in tearing apart Belorussia and Ukraine from other Russians. As for the Bolsheviks I believe the second ( after mentioned yesterday “increasing proletarian elements in Malorossia”) reason why they acted so was that their first leaders were of Jewish origin and cared little of the unity of the nation.

“the two countries have grown too far apart.”

*** Brothers marry now and then obtaining their own families. But they don’t stop to be brothers while Ush &Co has always call us as neighbors …I have been to the Ukraine last week. It was old Russian city of Kharkov and they call the Ukrainians as “them” while they call Russians as “us”. Now you can compare this with what your UNA –UNSO friends tell you in Vinnica.

Leonidas

"With an economy in total collapse i cannot see how the present Ukraine leadershi can survive any longer."

Ukraine has been having huge economic problems since the collapse of the Soviet Union, since Kuchma took power. Even if the other Viktor would win the elections, it would make no difference, Ukraine is destroyed by lack of unity and massive corruption.

It needs a clear direction, but unfortunately this is not so, with the Western part of the country being pro-West, the Eastern part pro-Russian, and none actually being pro-Ukraine.

The Greek

Actually, it's about 8 million people that are Russian in Ukraine. Ukrainians do not see themselves as Russians, they see themselves as Ukrainians (well, they are Ukrainians, they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians).

Peter


"several hundreds armed Poles which ..."

I am sorry cause I meant SEVERAL HUNDREDS THOUSANDS of armed but scared Poles inside and outside the country who were hiding from the Germans wherever they could. Be it UK , Middle East or Polish woods. The only two exclusions were Armia Liudowe and the Voisko Polskoe formed by the USSR. But even closing eyes at 500 000 of Poles drafted to Wermacht thos fighting Poles were in absolute minority against the crouds of Poles hiding on the islands and the Middle East. You know that.

I feel sorry for the anti-Russian Cathranians because their identity is Russian just as the Montenegrins are Serbs. UKR is a larger version of MN & how RUS solves the dilema will fortell how SRB solves its own identical dilema.

Rote,

Your falsification of polish history does not differ at all from the falsification of russian history currenly carried out in baltic states.

Szemi

What evidence do you need ? Please tell me for which of my comments would you like to have a link ? I cannot guarantee it will necessarily be in English. It may be in Russian too. Peter can read Russian and besides he is aware of almost everything I write. For a newcomer some facts may be shocking but not for the Russians and the Poles. So please put your questions.

Me.

Rote,

In my case you have a person who has a good command of both russian and serb and on top of all that a good friend of russians you can read my recent post in Kremlin bill on using army abroad no43 and I regularly follow russian news on media including russian week end coverage of georgian events: I have high respect fot true russians and consider them a very hard and maybe last obstacle to new world order:but I know polish history and do not care about some stalinist propaganda and your falsified links.I am as angry when somebody falsifies polish history and tries to reduce her sacrifice as in case when some falsify russian or serb history.So bear in mind I am equally imune to stalinist style anti-polish propaganda as well as some fox news or cnn style anti russian or ruder finn anti serb propaganda and links are not proof.

Ratko

Ukraine is not Georgia, but either way, conflict between these countries will more than likely not happen, it would lead to an all-out war.

No one wants that.

The Greek

Here are the official government statics provided by the government:

http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/

Ukrainians - 37541.7 (thousands) - 77.8%

Russians - 8334.1 (thousands) - 17.3%

By Russian nationals, did you mean ethnic Russians or Ukrainian with Russian citizenship? There is a big difference between the two.

highduke

Have you ever heard the Ukrainian language? It is quite different from Russia (in fact, it is closer to Polish, sharing 80% of our vocabulary). What is the Montenegrin language? Is there even such a thing?

Rote Kapelle

"Remember the elder Zbignev :”Russia plus the Ukraine is a Superpower again” and it’s the nightmare of all the Poles worldwide."

Yes, but what makes you think that the Ukraine would want to join Russia again?

"The long list of our international rivals was shocked with the unexpected massive support the head of Moscow Orthodox Church has received recently in the Ukraine. Any local politician would dream to enjoy 50% of that support and trust."

Religion and politics are two different things. Anyway, it seems that not all of Ukraine appeared to be very welcoming of Alexei:

http://en.rian.ru/Religion/20090803/155713757.html

"Next year both Ushenko and Saakasvili will live either in Poland or the USA. Poland won’t be able to defend them from the Interpol so they will sooner settle Overseas."

OK, I think Saakashvili is a criminal for me, but what did Yushchenko do that you think he deserves to be arrested by Interpol for? Disobedience to the Kremlin?

"Please stop this disinformation and polonisms ! If you do not know that RUSSIAN SOUNDS VERY PROUD it is your personal problem."

I meant no offense against Russians with this statement. It is the same as someone saying that Croats are Catholic Serbs, which is simply not true (even though they speak the same language), this is what I meant. As I have said before, I have no problems with Russian people.

"We have from 12 to 15 millions of those who say they are Russians and 8 million is the figure Yushenko would like to have. Though all of them are Russians ! Even those who told you in Lviv all these bullsh…"

Rote, that would be like me saying that Czechs and Slovaks are Poles, because they too are Catholic Slavs who speak a Western Slavic language and were joined in the Great Moravian Empire, except you replace Poles with Russians, Czechs with Ukrainians, Slovaks with Belarussians, Catholic with Orthodox, Western with Eastern and Great Moravian Empire with Rus. Viola!

"Later in 1922 six big Russian regions in the East were presented by the Communists to the Ukraine under a pretext “to increase the Proletarian elements in Malorossia” Then they went from home to home and started to persuade Russian peoples to call themselves Ukrainians. Many protested but many said yes cause they feared for their lives."

I have never heard of this.

"Who the Hell you think you are to say “they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians”"

Relax, I explained it earlier, no need to get angry, I meant no offense.

"If you are so educated please give me a link where before 1897 “Ukraine” is mentioned as an ethnic community but not a geographical termination. When you fail to please tell me where they have fallen from if they appeared in the end of the 19 century."

Of course Ukrainians were not a separate ethnic group until the 19th Century, they were called Ruthenes in our empire, with Belarussians, they spoke Ruthenian.

Even in Rus, the languages had regional differences, and under foreign influence they developed even further from each other when the Mongols lost control of Rus, and historic Rus was split between Moscow and Poland (OK, Lithuania, actually).

So the point is that there is some common root between the languages now spoken in Ukraine and Russia, but time has changed them greatly, and then what stops you from going back earlier to find roots? Why stop there? Why not go back further when it was Antowie, Wenedowie and Sklawenowie (or legend of Lech, Czech and Rus)? Why not go even further to proto-Slavic Przeworsk culture?

The point is today, the two countries have grown too far apart. This is why they are living in separate countries and their languages classified as separate within one family, and this is why is would be stupid for a Ukrainian to think he is a Russian (since when is Russia the heir to Rus when Kiev, it's capital is in what is today's Ukraine).

"Who were their ancestors and why exept Canada we do not have any Ukrainian emigration ?"

I do not understand, are you saying here, only Canada recognizes Ukrainian ethnicity, or what you mean?

szemi, 13 August 2009 18:05

I read your posts and I like them. No doubt you are a friend. But when you say that you know the Polish history I can suppose you can see only one side of the medal. Here I’ll disappoint you :

1/ Stalin is the unrecognized Hero Of Poland cause no Pole in the history has done even half of what this great man tribute to Poland. The don’t like to talk about it but he saved them from Nuernberg Tribunal , he created modern Poland as a state , he has built their Army , he added 30% of today’s territories of Poland which had always been German ones , he forgave them for 1920 strike and in 1939 took back only what they had stolen from us , he forgave them their attempts to join Hitler on his way to the USSR , he forgave them Anders’ Army treason in 1942 , he let them storm Berlin in 1945 ect. So please never say a word against Stalin when Peter is here. They hate him but they do know what they owe him.

2/ Actually Peter belongs to those 10% of Poles which are not very much of Rusophobes. Yet as a Pole he can imagine as if they gave the anti-Hitler coalition bigger Army than Serbs did. As a Pole he is interested to destroy Russia further on and thus he takes close to his heart any of our achievements. Somehow I believe he cares of the Serbs mostly as potential Russian allies. Therefore he comes here with his lessons. He is not a cloun like Joe and Mircea he is the real misleader and disinformator. But sometimes when there are no Russians around he reveals his mask and lets his feelings out.

3/ Poles and Russians is a separate story and nobody can judge us. We need time to forget dark spots in our history . It is like Serbs and Croats not even Serbs and Albanians ! We have to wait cause as a US satellite Poland does not have national foreign policy. It’s upto them cause they are used being under a Superpower be it Germans , Russians or the Americans. But when they try to rewrite the history Russians feel bad cause many things are very sensitive for us.

4/ Their military losses on all fronts since 1939 till 1945 were just 123 000 which were peanuts for 28 000 000 of Poles and when you talk that “ somebody falsifies polish history and tries to reduce her sacrifice…” I feel disappointed. In the neighboring Belorussia the losses were 1 out of 4 …

Cheers !

Rote Kapelle

I refuse to discuss your offensive communist propaganda about Poland during WW2 with you any further. You seem to bring it up in every single discussion, as if to provoke me. It won't work, and like szemi, I am equally allergic to Russian propaganda as I am to Western propaganda.

Everyone in the world who knows something about WW2 knows that the AK was 2nd largest underground movement in the war and the one that killed the second most Axis troops (starting from 1939) and continuing to fight the Red Plague form the East, if you prefer to believe your Marxist lies, be my guest, but I refuse to believe it.

If Russia thinks that Unkrain is Georgia, they are in for a big suprise. I hope to god that Russia will not start an adventure like it did in Georgia, becasue all hell will break loose.

By the way, I'll say move your black navy fleet to junk yard near Mascow, since is outdated and rusty.

No, Ukraine is defenitely not Georgia. In Ukraine, half of the country's population (25 millions that is) are self-determined as russian nationals and support Russia as their own motherland and not Ukraine. So it is definetely not Georgia... is even better for Russia.

Leonidas

"With an economy in total collapse i cannot see how the present Ukraine leadershi can survive any longer."

Ukraine has been having huge economic problems since the collapse of the Soviet Union, since Kuchma took power. Even if the other Viktor would win the elections, it would make no difference, Ukraine is destroyed by lack of unity and massive corruption.

It needs a clear direction, but unfortunately this is not so, with the Western part of the country being pro-West, the Eastern part pro-Russian, and none actually being pro-Ukraine.

The Greek

Actually, it's about 8 million people that are Russian in Ukraine. Ukrainians do not see themselves as Russians, they see themselves as Ukrainians (well, they are Ukrainians, they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians).

Kosovo-USA

Half of Ukrains population is Russian. Therefore Russia has more reason/right to get engaged in their affairs than America has in Irak, Afganistan, Serbia, South America, the Middle Eeast etc etc. Who are you to tell who where and when they can and can not interfere?

Medvedev has a valid point point as far as Ukraine's attitude towards Russia is concerned.

One rembembers the dispute about gas supplies last year when Ukraine was caught siphoning gas destined for the European Market.

Those actions demonstrate with all desirable clarity why the Nord Stream pipeline is an absolute necessity if Russian gas supplies to Europe are to be maintained. All land-based alternatives are subject to the same weaknesses and abuse that vitiate the present pipeline through the Ukraine.

The Ukraine economy is and has been in deep crisis since
the the leaders of the orange revolution,previously lionised by the US neocons, came into power.At the same time ,they continue their hostile propaganda against Russia by engaging in military exercises with NATO and seeking membership .

Ukraine is in a limbo.The EU and NATO have made it clear that there won't be any membership offerings now or in the future.

With an economy in total collapse i cannot see how the present Ukraine leadershi can survive any longer.

To Peter Sudyka - comment 4:

Peter, according to official data (that are published by the ukranian authorities) 30% of the countrie's population are russian nationals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

So it is definetely more than 8 million people who define themselves as russians (and not 8 million as you falsely mention), even according to the Ukranian data. So, if the Ukranian (and totally US-controlled and anti-russian) authorities count them as 30% of the total countrie's population, I suspect they must be about 50% in reality...

Peter Sudyka

1/ You may see my respond for your previous post here http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=61084

2/ We two know that the Ukraine battle is the same battle in Georgia. And both of us know the Polish role in the problems we have in the Ukraine. ( Our problems in Belorussia are caused only by Luka. ) We also know that the Ukraine battle is the main one. On this “Great Chess Desk” the Ukraine is the main price. Remember the elder Zbignev :”Russia plus the Ukraine is a Superpower again” and it’s the nightmare of all the Poles worldwide.

3/ The long list of our international rivals was shocked with the unexpected massive support the head of Moscow Orthodox Church has received recently in the Ukraine. Any local politician would dream to enjoy 50% of that support and trust.

4/ I liked the whole text of what Medvedev said to your spy. The main result is that since now on we dare again to be ourselves and in one way or another we are going to return what must belong to us. Russia is not going to swallow the two other Russian states. We’ll be satisfied to have friendly regimes there. They are us and we are them.

5/ Next year both Ushenko and Saakasvili will live either in Poland or the USA. Poland won’t be able to defend them from the Interpol so they will sooner settle Overseas.

6/ “ Actually, it's about 8 million people that are Russian in Ukraine. Ukrainians do not see themselves as Russians, they see themselves as Ukrainians (well, they are Ukrainians, they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians).”

--- Please stop this disinformation and polonisms ! If you do not know that RUSSIAN SOUNDS VERY PROUD it is your personal problem.

--- We have from 12 to 15 millions of those who say they are Russians and 8 million is the figure Yushenko would like to have. Though all of them are Russians ! Even those who told you in Lviv all these bullsh …

--- 200 years the Germans and later the Poles created differences between the western Russians and the rest of the people. If you ask to I will tell you the details you pretend not to know. Later in 1922 six big Russian regions in the East were presented by the Communists to the Ukraine under a pretext “to increase the Proletarian elements in Malorossia” Then they went from home to home and started to persuade Russian peoples to call themselves Ukrainians. Many protested but many said yes cause they feared for their lives. In 1954 we presented Crimea ect.

--- I too would not like to be a Pole but I accept you as you are cause even the Poles the trees and the beasts and the mountains were made by the Almighty. How dare you to judge him ! Who the Hell you think you are to say “they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians”

--- If you are so educated please give me a link where before 1897 “Ukraine” is mentioned as an ethnic community but not a geographical termination. When you fail to please tell me where they have fallen from if they appeared in the end of the 19 century. Who were their ancestors and why exept Canada we do not have any Ukrainian emigration ?

Peter Sudyka, 13 August 2009 13:52

“Yes, but what makes you think that the Ukraine would want to join Russia again?”
*** According to Gallup Agency 57% of them say that the most friendly country to the Ukraine is Russia and 28% say that it is Belorussia which is also a part of the Russian world. Now put them together to have the optimistic 81%.

“Religion and politics are two different things”

*** Don’t pretend to be naïve ! All Ukrainian politicians together cannot gather half the crowd meeting Kirill in every city he visited. And you say it is not politics ? It was such a shock to the local elites to witness that the Russian Church is the most influential power in the Ukraine. It was a shock for Washington and Lvov and Warsaw. And now you pretend not to see what has happened. Don’t you see the connection between the statement of Medvedev and the visit of Kirill ? Those are the chains of the same politics we are going to conduct here.

“what did Yushchenko do that you think he deserves to be arrested by Interpol for?”

*** If you can afford the whole text of Medvedev’s statement you will find the answer . He said that Ukraine has become a partner in the barbarian assault at SO and those responsible for the fact that most of the Russian citizens and peacekeeprs were killed by the Ukrainian armaments will be prosecuted.

“I meant no offense against Russians with this statement”

*** I shall trust you if you write here and now that RUSSIAN SOUNDS UTMOST PROUD ! That Russians saved the Poles and the whole Europe , that we sent our spaceships while the Poles were still sitting on the trees ect. You may not understand that ethnically even Yushenko ( with his polizei father ) is a Russian that another Ukrainian nationalist Timoshenko was born from her Jewish mother and Jewish father , that their new national hero Hauptman Stephan Bandera has been awarded with the Iron Kross personally by Adolf Hitler ect. But how dare you to say that millions of peoples are stupid not to know who were their ancestors.

“Rote, that would be like me saying that Czechs and Slovaks are Poles”

*** We have close to 15 millions of pure Russians there who do not know the Ukrainian language and who has never stopped to be Russian. We have another 15 millions in the central part of the state who say that they are Ukrainians and who do not know the language. Outside western (polish) regions in none of the cities or towns you will hear the Ukrainian language in the streets. Even in Kiev.

“I have never heard of this.”

*** Poles , Russian Bolshevics , the Austrian Germans , the Hungarians , the Americans and Ukrainian nationalists, mosly hated each other but all of them were united in tearing apart Belorussia and Ukraine from other Russians. As for the Bolsheviks I believe the second ( after mentioned yesterday “increasing proletarian elements in Malorossia”) reason why they acted so was that their first leaders were of Jewish origin and cared little of the unity of the nation.

“the two countries have grown too far apart.”

*** Brothers marry now and then obtaining their own families. But they don’t stop to be brothers while Ush &Co has always call us as neighbors …I have been to the Ukraine last week. It was old Russian city of Kharkov and they call the Ukrainians as “them” while they call Russians as “us”. Now you can compare this with what your UNA –UNSO friends tell you in Vinnica.

Peter


"several hundreds armed Poles which ..."

I am sorry cause I meant SEVERAL HUNDREDS THOUSANDS of armed but scared Poles inside and outside the country who were hiding from the Germans wherever they could. Be it UK , Middle East or Polish woods. The only two exclusions were Armia Liudowe and the Voisko Polskoe formed by the USSR. But even closing eyes at 500 000 of Poles drafted to Wermacht thos fighting Poles were in absolute minority against the crouds of Poles hiding on the islands and the Middle East. You know that.

Rote,

Your falsification of polish history does not differ at all from the falsification of russian history currenly carried out in baltic states.

To Peter

I agree with you.As you may know Ukraine right now is surviving on IMF loans-$26billion this year- and requires huge additional funding in future.

My point is that i cannot see
a way out.Rejected by the West and Russia i can see the country slipping into social troubles in the very near future.

Peter:

Putin/Medvedev have clearly stated they will use military force to protect their citizens outside of Russia as they should! If that western puppet government is stupid enough to listen to uncle sam then they will do great harm to their country/citizens, just like Sakasvili did.

Ukraine is a falling skeleton and has no chance to survive unless they get back at the table with the russian.

What is left from the orchestred orange revolution apart from two hyper ego "leaders"....?

A wind of panic is blowing now from the US to try to "save" Ukraine from getting closer to Russia by pushing Nato in, but the world is changing rapidely and fortunately the EU is slowly opening it's eyes, leaded by Germany and France, being noy do kean anymore to blindly follow the destructive US foreign policy!

I feel sorry for the anti-Russian Cathranians because their identity is Russian just as the Montenegrins are Serbs. UKR is a larger version of MN & how RUS solves the dilema will fortell how SRB solves its own identical dilema.

Peter Sudyka, 13 August 2009 08:38

1. You have really surprised me with the Magyarorsag-Polska brotherhood. I never knew that you may have a single friendly nation. Though we have dozens of them - OK you have won !
2. The way Ossetia and Abkhasia are de facto parts of Russia Georgia is a de facto part of NATO. Moreover it is the most reliable and easy to operate part of NATO where no consensus is required. During 5 years it has been equipped and trained according to NATO standards. They just replaced useless M-16 rifles for AK-74 and expensive US Abrahams for cheap T-72 modernized by another NATO gendarme Israel. By the way in SO we have dead bodies of several instructors from Israel and the USA.
3. Concerning “being good enough” for police operations thousands miles away from Wisla I agree you may be good. But concerning good Polish warriors I have too little evidence. Maybe you mean 1939 when 1 200 000 Poles for 3 weeks were resisting 1 100 000 Germans or those several hundreds armed Poles which escaped any contact with the Germans during all 5 years of occupation ?
4. I agree with you in that 1999 we should have stood by the side of our Orthodox brothers in arms. One regiment seized the Pristina airport and not a single bitch has dared to open it’s damned mouth cause in NATO they also want to live. So you are right we should have supplied them S-300 missiles to defend them from the air cause on the land they would definitely destroy the NATO machine by themselves. In 1999 NATO could afford about 1000 dead bodies for the USA + about 300 for Europe while Serbs were ready to pay any price required. Besides during WW2 they have obtained partisan experience never known in Poland or any other occupied state.

Rote,

In my case you have a person who has a good command of both russian and serb and on top of all that a good friend of russians you can read my recent post in Kremlin bill on using army abroad no43 and I regularly follow russian news on media including russian week end coverage of georgian events: I have high respect fot true russians and consider them a very hard and maybe last obstacle to new world order:but I know polish history and do not care about some stalinist propaganda and your falsified links.I am as angry when somebody falsifies polish history and tries to reduce her sacrifice as in case when some falsify russian or serb history.So bear in mind I am equally imune to stalinist style anti-polish propaganda as well as some fox news or cnn style anti russian or ruder finn anti serb propaganda and links are not proof.

Ratko

Ukraine is not Georgia, but either way, conflict between these countries will more than likely not happen, it would lead to an all-out war.

No one wants that.

The Greek

Here are the official government statics provided by the government:

http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/

Ukrainians - 37541.7 (thousands) - 77.8%

Russians - 8334.1 (thousands) - 17.3%

By Russian nationals, did you mean ethnic Russians or Ukrainian with Russian citizenship? There is a big difference between the two.

highduke

Have you ever heard the Ukrainian language? It is quite different from Russia (in fact, it is closer to Polish, sharing 80% of our vocabulary). What is the Montenegrin language? Is there even such a thing?

Rote Kapelle

"Remember the elder Zbignev :”Russia plus the Ukraine is a Superpower again” and it’s the nightmare of all the Poles worldwide."

Yes, but what makes you think that the Ukraine would want to join Russia again?

"The long list of our international rivals was shocked with the unexpected massive support the head of Moscow Orthodox Church has received recently in the Ukraine. Any local politician would dream to enjoy 50% of that support and trust."

Religion and politics are two different things. Anyway, it seems that not all of Ukraine appeared to be very welcoming of Alexei:

http://en.rian.ru/Religion/20090803/155713757.html

"Next year both Ushenko and Saakasvili will live either in Poland or the USA. Poland won’t be able to defend them from the Interpol so they will sooner settle Overseas."

OK, I think Saakashvili is a criminal for me, but what did Yushchenko do that you think he deserves to be arrested by Interpol for? Disobedience to the Kremlin?

"Please stop this disinformation and polonisms ! If you do not know that RUSSIAN SOUNDS VERY PROUD it is your personal problem."

I meant no offense against Russians with this statement. It is the same as someone saying that Croats are Catholic Serbs, which is simply not true (even though they speak the same language), this is what I meant. As I have said before, I have no problems with Russian people.

"We have from 12 to 15 millions of those who say they are Russians and 8 million is the figure Yushenko would like to have. Though all of them are Russians ! Even those who told you in Lviv all these bullsh…"

Rote, that would be like me saying that Czechs and Slovaks are Poles, because they too are Catholic Slavs who speak a Western Slavic language and were joined in the Great Moravian Empire, except you replace Poles with Russians, Czechs with Ukrainians, Slovaks with Belarussians, Catholic with Orthodox, Western with Eastern and Great Moravian Empire with Rus. Viola!

"Later in 1922 six big Russian regions in the East were presented by the Communists to the Ukraine under a pretext “to increase the Proletarian elements in Malorossia” Then they went from home to home and started to persuade Russian peoples to call themselves Ukrainians. Many protested but many said yes cause they feared for their lives."

I have never heard of this.

"Who the Hell you think you are to say “they are stupid if they see themselves as Russians”"

Relax, I explained it earlier, no need to get angry, I meant no offense.

"If you are so educated please give me a link where before 1897 “Ukraine” is mentioned as an ethnic community but not a geographical termination. When you fail to please tell me where they have fallen from if they appeared in the end of the 19 century."

Of course Ukrainians were not a separate ethnic group until the 19th Century, they were called Ruthenes in our empire, with Belarussians, they spoke Ruthenian.

Even in Rus, the languages had regional differences, and under foreign influence they developed even further from each other when the Mongols lost control of Rus, and historic Rus was split between Moscow and Poland (OK, Lithuania, actually).

So the point is that there is some common root between the languages now spoken in Ukraine and Russia, but time has changed them greatly, and then what stops you from going back earlier to find roots? Why stop there? Why not go back further when it was Antowie, Wenedowie and Sklawenowie (or legend of Lech, Czech and Rus)? Why not go even further to proto-Slavic Przeworsk culture?

The point is today, the two countries have grown too far apart. This is why they are living in separate countries and their languages classified as separate within one family, and this is why is would be stupid for a Ukrainian to think he is a Russian (since when is Russia the heir to Rus when Kiev, it's capital is in what is today's Ukraine).

"Who were their ancestors and why exept Canada we do not have any Ukrainian emigration ?"

I do not understand, are you saying here, only Canada recognizes Ukrainian ethnicity, or what you mean?

Szemi

What evidence do you need ? Please tell me for which of my comments would you like to have a link ? I cannot guarantee it will necessarily be in English. It may be in Russian too. Peter can read Russian and besides he is aware of almost everything I write. For a newcomer some facts may be shocking but not for the Russians and the Poles. So please put your questions.

Me.

szemi, 13 August 2009 18:05

I read your posts and I like them. No doubt you are a friend. But when you say that you know the Polish history I can suppose you can see only one side of the medal. Here I’ll disappoint you :

1/ Stalin is the unrecognized Hero Of Poland cause no Pole in the history has done even half of what this great man tribute to Poland. The don’t like to talk about it but he saved them from Nuernberg Tribunal , he created modern Poland as a state , he has built their Army , he added 30% of today’s territories of Poland which had always been German ones , he forgave them for 1920 strike and in 1939 took back only what they had stolen from us , he forgave them their attempts to join Hitler on his way to the USSR , he forgave them Anders’ Army treason in 1942 , he let them storm Berlin in 1945 ect. So please never say a word against Stalin when Peter is here. They hate him but they do know what they owe him.

2/ Actually Peter belongs to those 10% of Poles which are not very much of Rusophobes. Yet as a Pole he can imagine as if they gave the anti-Hitler coalition bigger Army than Serbs did. As a Pole he is interested to destroy Russia further on and thus he takes close to his heart any of our achievements. Somehow I believe he cares of the Serbs mostly as potential Russian allies. Therefore he comes here with his lessons. He is not a cloun like Joe and Mircea he is the real misleader and disinformator. But sometimes when there are no Russians around he reveals his mask and lets his feelings out.

3/ Poles and Russians is a separate story and nobody can judge us. We need time to forget dark spots in our history . It is like Serbs and Croats not even Serbs and Albanians ! We have to wait cause as a US satellite Poland does not have national foreign policy. It’s upto them cause they are used being under a Superpower be it Germans , Russians or the Americans. But when they try to rewrite the history Russians feel bad cause many things are very sensitive for us.

4/ Their military losses on all fronts since 1939 till 1945 were just 123 000 which were peanuts for 28 000 000 of Poles and when you talk that “ somebody falsifies polish history and tries to reduce her sacrifice…” I feel disappointed. In the neighboring Belorussia the losses were 1 out of 4 …

Cheers !

Rote Kapelle

I refuse to discuss your offensive communist propaganda about Poland during WW2 with you any further. You seem to bring it up in every single discussion, as if to provoke me. It won't work, and like szemi, I am equally allergic to Russian propaganda as I am to Western propaganda.

Everyone in the world who knows something about WW2 knows that the AK was 2nd largest underground movement in the war and the one that killed the second most Axis troops (starting from 1939) and continuing to fight the Red Plague form the East, if you prefer to believe your Marxist lies, be my guest, but I refuse to believe it.