Serb deacon assaulted in Kosovo

There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)
--
Someone was attacked and you think that is unimportant? With that attitude I understand why the province is a complete mess.

We have had persecutions of Christians in the Middle East for several years by the forces of global jihad.

The Balkans are now also following this trend.

Will Europe and the US etc allow this to continue?

It would be a grave moral injustice were this to be the case.

I look forward to the visit of the Russian President later this year - I am sure the Russian President will have lots of issues to discuss with his Serbian counterpart.

I hope everybody is familiar with wedding convoys.At all times one car will block intersections or if the convoy is making a turn and there is incoming traffic one car will block that so the convoy will move unimpeded.
Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)

Yes. I did met few wedding convoys. They were very friendly and waived to me and no one kicked the car.

God forbid - but could be that the major difference was: his car had old-style Yugoslav plates, my car had American plates with a large "USA" country oval sticker in the back?

What do you think?

@ "Kosovo-USA"

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked."
Galatians 6:7

Everytime there is an atrocity and a gross abuse of human rights, "Kosovo-USA" comes up with an excuse and an attempt to deceive others about what is an awful and inconvenient truth - jihadists and Islamofascists now 'control' Kosovo and much of the Balkans - read for example "The Coming Balkan Caliphate: The Threat of Radical Islam to Europe and the West" or Julia Gorin's EXCELLENT piece dealing with someone else who thought lies could be substituted for truth:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1048

(By the way - Julia Gorin is a true American unlike Kosova-USA because she really does support life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!)

One again the jihadists and their allies attack the innocent and - in this instance - a man of God.

Will "Kosovo-USA" now tell us that all those destroyed churches and monasteries were on the way of "wedding parties."

How ridiculous and shameful that someone could seek to "justify" such a disgusting action.

I hope US, EU etc policymakers are reading these posts. They are just further evidence of the 'Frankenstein' they have created - the only solution is to 'flip" the switch and end this terrible experiment.

"What a bunch of cry babies."
KOSOVARi

Look who's talking! At least we fight our own battles. We don't go crying to anyone else.

So, now serbs should start kicking Albanian cars, if they in someway interrupt a Serbian wedding procession? This is why there will never be peace in Kosovo. People with a mentality like Kosovo USA, although most citizens in the USA respect other people's property, and not kick it, is the reason why Albanian run Kosovo is going nowhere.

Kosova-USA

I've read your comments for the last couple of months and every time Albanians commit crimes against Serbs you find excuses for the behaviour of your people and the justification for their actions regardles of how despicable the deed. Even if you were not there and don't know what happend you think you have the answer to everything that happens. You are begining to run out of excuses to defend atrocities against Serbs civilians. This type of behaviour can not be defended in the long run.

EU style democracy/human rights at its finest. So Serbs in Belgrade , this is what you will get when you sell your souls to the EUSSR

What a bunch of cry babies.

This was a daily thing in Kosmet during albanian uprisings.

"In Serbian"??

like you don't know why but here i'll explain :)
Like i said perfect intimidation technique in albanians. Of course the criminal who went after the priest, his kin knew what he was doing. He didnt need to tell them anything He simply wanted the priest to know that he was preparing lynch mob for him. that's why he shouted in serbian. to scare the man to terrorise him.

Mike, when you say excusers you surely mean deniers?

'this war was their blood feud with the Serbs,'

Thank you so much for writing this. i've been saying it forever. that's whats going on in kosovo that's why our graves are demolished, people killed and 1000 years old monasteries burned. it's albanian blood feud in this pretty europe of ours in the 21st century. isn't it amazing? anyway only silly westerners who never walked under one of them 2 metre walls dont know that.

Kosovo albanians long time ago perfected intimidation and pressure skills. they poisoned livestock and wells, destroyed crops, kidnaped, murdered, raped driving serbs out of kosovo for the last three decades at least long before they started killing cops. This is from 1987. "slavic" being serb
http://www.kunstradio.at/WAR/binder-nytimes.html
Ataman, sorry chetnik what? you mean those idiots that saved 500 american pilots during world war 2? little knowledge is dangerous.

That said, K-Albs (and Croats and Bosniaks) don't have much love for Serbian priests so maybe it happened.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 15:31)
--
So you are now justifying crime by living in the past with made up stories? No wonder the province is so backwards. Wake up EULEX, another crime has just been committed.

"..Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13) "

The priest was probably alone when he was attacked else the article would more than likely have mentioned it.

And I somehow find the idea that a serb priest would be attempting to 'provoke' a mob of K-albanians just a wee bit implausible.. unless that is, you're the sort of person who blames someone for getting in the way of his fist.

Personally, don't know which is worse.. the story of the attack itself.. your blind nationalism in defending the actions of this cowardly thug.. or that so many of your compatriots share your viewpoint.

Whichever is the case, the lot of you should be ashamed.

Repetitive weekly conflicts on etnical base clearly are pointing to the fact that there is no real chance for coexistence of two major ethnical communities involved in Kosovo.

Being realistic and dividing the Serbs and Albanians along ethnical lines, as international borders, is only lasting solution for the Province.

"Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)"

Well I was figuring one of the excuses would could from either Kosova-USA or aRTA, our two resident Albanian excusers. True to form, they don't disappoint.

So Kosova-USA's brilliant analysis was that the wedding convoy was attacked by a lone Serbian deacon. In the middle of Albanian-controlled Kosovo. Unless this guy is super strong, or super stupid, the chances of such a scenario happening are unlikely.

More likely the deacon was driving without KS plates.

Either that, or being a wedding, the Albanian who harassed him was just plain drunk.

"At around 13:00 CET, he came across a wedding procession, parked by the side of the road, in the village of Orlate. One of them blocked his way with his car, and then questioned Mitrić about who he was and why he was passing through there, trying to pull him out of the car," the statement said.

I hope everybody is familiar with wedding convoys.At all times one car will block intersections or if the convoy is making a turn and there is incoming traffic one car will block that so the convoy will move unimpeded.
Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.

"So you are now justifying crime by living in the past with made up stories? No wonder the province is so backwards. Wake up EULEX, another crime has just been committed."

First we're not sure a crime has been committed. One said it happened but...
Second, explaining why it MAY have happened, is different from justifying it.


Attaman: "but linking any particular ideology to unruly mountaineers is incorrect. "

The "unruly mountaineers" just wanted to be left alone, something Turks learned after a few bloody rebellions. You need to learn about the history from non-Serb or Albanian sources. Here is the truth:

"In perpetuity its Albanian peasants have lived under the threat of violent death. The need for protection led to a unique architecture still much in evidence on the plateau today: tall fortified farmhouses known as kulas (meaning towers), which are built of heavy stone, largely without windows, and with gun slits on the upper floors. It’s obvious that too much could be made of this. The Kanun reflects the lives of a hard people as much as it forms them. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Kosovo war was sparked and fought not by the urban sophisticates of Priština but by the tough country boys of places like Dukagjin. They had been insulted by Slobodan Milošević, Serbia’s president, and assaulted by his police. As much as a modern struggle for liberation, this war was their blood feud with the Serbs, and required by honor. The intervention on the Albanian side by American F-16s did not relieve them of the obligation. "
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/12/kosovo200812?printable=true¤tPage=all

Forgiving and forgetting is very hard for Albanians, and that can start ONLY after a sincere apology. Serbia was stronger for while, after being weak for a long time, who knows what the future brings.

The "unruly mountaineers" just wanted to be left alone, something Turks learned after a few bloody rebellions.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 18:52)

Two "but"-s to this and one thing extra:

1) But we live in 21st Century.
2) But the methods deployed by the mountaineers were not really "gentleman-like".
What happened with the priest was a minor thing, indeed - but not really gentleman-like.
3) Little extra: you can argue, Serbs did not behave always gentleman-like either. And I will say: "eye-for-an-eye means the entire planet will be blind" (Gandhi, if I recall).

---------------

The "kula" architecture is well-known, in particular you can see it in the famous village of Arbanasi, Bulgaria. Of course, "Arbanasi" means "Albanians". Now - how come that Bulgarians did not live in "kula"-s, only Albanians? They were not any less under Turkish rule?

As Bulgarian guides would explain, the main purpose of Kula-s was to shield Albanian families from each other, not from Turks or Bulgarians. See the Kanun you mention.

Or to repeat myself: that's precisely the challenge to be in 21st Century (for the tough boys from Dukagjin you mentioned).


No objection to softies and sophisticates from Priština. Dukagjin Drenica and the rest must grow up. And it is bad enough, now the "tough boys" became the "fat cats" - and not to everyone's liking.

And if "forgiving" is not learned, than see Gandhi's comment about "eye-for-an-eye".

@ ataman

0.01% of your friends may ocassionally eat pork (as if I care what you eat) but most of your friends in Kosovo are ...the evidence is overwhelming.....they are the modern Taliban.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=013255222075609514560%3Ayu16amghxpi&q=kosovo&sa=Search

Then again, Muslim Albanians have been caught telling lies before

http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=1965579

There will be no partition of Kosovo - Serbian land will not be traded for Serbian land!

Forgiving and forgetting is very hard for Albanians, and that can start ONLY after a sincere apology. Serbia was stronger for while, after being weak for a long time, who knows what the future brings.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 18:52)


Now I understand all, you are really leaving in another century.

Talking about apology, can you pls ask your main criminal in Pristina, you know the snake, to apologize for the drug trafficking he managed to organize with his boys in switzerland!

George,

Sorry - but that Julia Gorin is an other side of the same bad coin. Mildly speaking, not the best article. A kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and long mustache is just a kleftos. With all respect to their berxolle and fustanella - it is not easy to take them to the 21st Century. This is what all it is about, not some BS like "islam" and such.

The Serbian answer to kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and a long mustache was a chetnik with long gun and a long mustache. It did not work well out, not really up to 21st Century either, but I am rather with them for whatever reason ;)

BTW: as we learned recently, that berxolle is made of pork - so much about "islamism".

"Everyone needs to read Edith Durham or Noel Malcolm about society operates /d; ignore it at your own peril :-)"

Indeed the famous Noel Malcom President(or maybe now former) of the London based Anglo-Albanian Society for a few years. He doesn't like to advertise this little fact.

Another 'impartial' historian who claims to know the 'truth'. LOL!

Hi, Ataman - what surprised me was not that the "attacker" addressed the deacon in Serbian (it wasn't stated what language he used), but that he spoke to the other members of the wedding party in that language. So - a lone Albanian - the "attacker" was attending a Serbian wedding and trying to be helpful? (generally, a good sign), or maybe he was a Serbian assuming that the deacon was an Albanian, perhaps because of a number-plate mix-up such as you mention (not so good, but hardly a sign of Albanian hooliganism, either). Probably the only thing it's safe to assume is that plentiful quantities of alcohol were involved. No guns, apparently, and fortunately.

George,

I share your view about Serbia itself, but linking any particular ideology to unruly mountaineers is incorrect.

They have nothing to do per se with Taliban (neither Pashtuns do!) or other islamic insanities. They have their own idea called "Greater Albania" and every ideology they adopt is ought to serve that one.

But certain circles in Saudi Arabia like to spread their influence and try hard. And certain neo-Christian hillbillies like Julia Gorin do Serbia more harm than good.

Serbia does not need her and her neo-con neo-"Christian" hillbillies as allies. We had Bush bad enough as opponent.

In general, I am not sure when Americans are worse: as friends or as opponents. Best is if they are 100% out of the area and concentrate on their own problems.

"1700's: ""The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people..."

- Not much has changed in 300 years it seems. Arta is for once, correct in mentioning the blood feuds as being part of the tradition. Disgustingly, she takes pride in this uncivilized and barbaric practice that has no place in Europe, let alone a civilized world. Time to join the rest of Europe in the 21st century, Albanians.

"This proves that all those stories about the Serbs living in ghettos and unable to travel without KFOR protection are lies.
(BH_NYC, 11 August 2009 09:33)"

It only proves that they can try to move around without KFOR protection. It also proves they need the protection.

pss:
The 'story' here was probably along the lines of some thug with a bit of drink in him deciding to 'have a bit of fun' with a serbian orthodox priest.

That that 'fun' probably involved:
1: trying to drag the priest out of his car for a 'good-natured' beating,
2: attempting to intimidate the priest by calling out to his mates for assistance in getting the priest out of his car - in 'serbian' so that the priest would understand his 'good-natured' intentions, and
3: then kicking in the door panels of the priests car as a 'good-natured' send-off..

..is hardly something most reasonable people would find amusing.

If this is the type of behavior this K-albanian coward is capable of when he's 'happy', god knows what he's capable of when he's not.

@ Ataman (again)

1 The KLA are not unruly “mountaineers” – they are a globally connected jihadist / racist/ organised crime group that persecutes non-Christians and non-Albanians. The links I have provided are clear enough.
2 Nearly every major single terrorist act has had links to Balkan Islamists and there has been cooperation with them and major figures such as Osama Bin Laden. David Hicks (the Australian KLA fighter who graduated to the Afghanistan Taliban) is but one example. It is a disaster that Saudi Wahhabism is spreading in Europe through Albania, Kosovo (which is Serbia) and Bosnia and it will the cause of many problems for Europe, the US and Israel in the near future (if not already)
3 Julia Gorin is not a Christian – she is Jewish and she knows what danger the Muslim Nazis (i.e. Islamofascists) pose in the Balkans and what they did in the Second World War. Get your facts straight.
4 I would not call George W Bush a Christian – no ‘Christian’ would help support the enemies of Christianity. The destruction of the Serbian Christian people and Christian civilisation in Kosovo under the watch of NATO, US, EU etc is a blight on humanity and true Americans are shocked at what their governments have done.

Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia

'It adds that Mitrić refused to leave the vehicle, and that the attacker then kicked it with his feet, calling on other members of the procession in Serbian to join him.'

"In Serbian"??

"Someone was attacked and you think that is unimportant? With that attitude I understand why the province is a complete mess."

Someone SAID he was attacked. As one that lived through the 80's in Kosova I can tell you of many claims of "Churches destroyed, nuns raped" and other false charges.

That said, K-Albs (and Croats and Bosniaks) don't have much love for Serbian priests so maybe it happened.

"In Serbian"??
(Amer, 10 August 2009 17:33)

Of course. If not last week I had to have a conversation in a quasi-Russian/Serbian mix with a lady from Pristina...

Usual "Green Card" woes (solved in the meantime). As you know, not easy to insure a car with US plates in Europe.... and how about several cars?

Here "KosovA" comes handy. As a law-less place with everything being possible - that is possible, too. Called insurance company in Pristina, tried English and German. After few minutes they decided to switch... to my little surprise.

Once I asked directions on the street - the Albanian pedestrians seeing my car being "safe" (hehe, I removed the Russian plate holder in K. Mitrovica) - just wanted to talk in language I did not expect them.

Hence the lession: if you see a car with USA plates, do not assume, there aren't Serbs or Russians inside.

But of course my plate holder which is Russian - will be always removed before I enter KosMet. You know... just in case ;-)

1 The KLA are not unruly “mountaineers” – they are a globally connected jihadist / racist/ organised crime group that persecutes non-Christians and non-Albanians. The links I have provided are clear enough.
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Correct on the surface but wrong analysis. KLA roots are the Albanian mountain brigands. Romans had to assign a legion to "pacify" the area. And how successful they were - today we have KLA.
It was no jihad at the time of Caesars, BTW.

As for jihad: it is merely an excuse to do the same criminal activity as it was done in Roman times. Illyrians were infamous pirates, for instance. Thracians were not the most peaceful group either.

-------------

2 Nearly every major single terrorist act has had links to Balkan Islamists and there has been cooperation with them and major figures such as Osama Bin Laden. David Hicks (the Australian KLA fighter who graduated to the Afghanistan Taliban) is but one example. It is a disaster that Saudi Wahhabism is spreading in Europe through Albania, Kosovo (which is Serbia) and Bosnia and it will the cause of many problems for Europe, the US and Israel in the near future (if not already)
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Again: looks like being correct on the surface, but you conveniently forget Iran which has nothing to do with Osama. Iran is at roots of current trouble in Iraq and they are behind almost every recent terror act against Israel. Iran and Osama are essentially "competitors". IMO, it is a mistake to create a global evil figure (Osama). His organization is by far not as significant as some American politicians want us to believe.

-------------

3 Julia Gorin is not a Christian – she is Jewish and she knows what danger the Muslim Nazis (i.e. Islamofascists) pose in the Balkans and what they did in the Second World War. Get your facts straight.
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

- OK, I stand corrected - she is than a Jewish nut, not a neo-"Christian" nut. Unfortunately, America is a hotbed for nuts. :-(
- We know about WW-II not any worse - maybe even better - than Julia Gorin.
- KLA is an opportunist criminal group, not islamo-fascists. They can use any ideology at will. Their root ideology is "Albanism", but with some modification to accept the old "klephtos" tradition
- Both Saudi Wahabbites and Iranian mullahs are THE islamo-fascists. KLA is opportunist.

-------------

4 I would not call George W Bush a Christian
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

If you look precisely, Dubyah was called neo-"Christian" and neo-con.
FYI: "Christian" and "neo-Christian" is not Chistian (without ""). And "neo-conservative" is not "conservative". Christian or Jewish: Dubyah is just an other side of the same bad American coin Julia Gorin and that web site you did show represent.

We better off without them.

-------------

Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Yes, of course, Косово jе Србиjа - but without Julia Gorin, Dubya and all the garbage from overseas. Islamo-fascists are a different story, only loosely connected to it. But here, Iranian mullahs are by no means better than Saudi Wahabbites. Both belong to the garbage dump of the history. No double standards.

"Some people just don't seem to realise that they were chased out of Kosova for being Serbs and not for being non-muslem. They may wonder why no Catholic Albanian ever left their home because of KLA!
The world moves forward while the Serbs continue to sing that same old nationalistic, racist warmongering tune.
(BH_NYC, 11 August 2009 14:43)"

Which people have said this? Non on this comments board have.

As far as I can remember the accusation has always been that Albanians have chased out non-Albanians be they Serbs, Slavis Muslims like the Gorani, Roma, etc.

Sorry - but that Julia Gorin is an other side of the same bad coin. Mildly speaking, not the best article. A kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and long mustache is just a kleftos. With all respect to their berxolle and fustanella - it is not easy to take them to the 21st Century. This is what all it is about, not some BS like "islam" and such.
--
Julia Gorin also stated that Bin Laden met with Sali Berisha and Thaci! Ha!

Good response Ataman but Serbs and Montengrins had to deal with Malsore, Dukagjinas, Shaljane, Lumjane etc in wool cakshire (Turkish word for pants.) As Russia started to build Serbia the fortunes switched.

Everyone needs to read Edith Durham or Noel Malcolm about society operates /d; ignore it at your own peril :-)

"`To say that the Turks have subjugated the Arnauts [i.e. Albanians] is not strictly correct. Their position is something like that of the French in the remoter parts of Algeria. They hold certain towns, the intervening country being occupied by independent tribes, governing themselves.' "

1700's: ""The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people, but nevertheless they have their own--and a very strict--code of honor and they are faithful even unto death""

"...the history of Kosovo and northern Albania is punctuated by a series of revolts caused by ill-starred official attempts to disarm the population. In the words of one English traveller of the 1880s: `The pride of a farmer in his livestock, or of a collector in his specimens, is nothing to the pride of an Albanian in his weapons. They are ... the guardians of his hearth, the object of his admiration, and his perpetual glory.'"

"An occasional paragraph in the English newspapers tells of an outbreak of "Albanian lawlessness,"–that [Turkish] troops have been sent to Ljuma, for example, to enforce the payment of cattle tax, or order the disarming of the population–an expedition that always fails. ."

Ataman, sorry chetnik what? you mean those idiots that saved 500 american pilots during world war 2? little knowledge is dangerous.
(smile, 10 August 2009 16:26)

I mean the original term, not the WW-II. My terminology was not strict, since "kleftos" is a Greek word, but describes pretty well what I do mean. Don't tell me, there weren't enough Serbs and Greeks with long mustache. The (only) major difference is fustanella.

Serbs are lucky at least they have no quarrel with Albanians about who invented the fustanella. Greeks are in more tough position, but they to, have my support.

But to speak seriously, all this is ridiculous and really reminds me of Asterix' village with obligatory village-fight about the fish being stinky or not.

BTW: weren't Illyrians and Celts (see Asterix) indeed related? That explains a lot...

This proves that all those stories about the Serbs living in ghettos and unable to travel without KFOR protection are lies.

Some people just don't seem to realise that they were chased out of Kosova for being Serbs and not for being non-muslem. They may wonder why no Catholic Albanian ever left their home because of KLA!
The world moves forward while the Serbs continue to sing that same old nationalistic, racist warmongering tune.

Ataman

I agree with some of your points. Yes, America does have a disturbing number of religious extremists (Christian and Jewish). This Gorin probably comes from the same type of Jews as the settlers in Israel...troublemakers who use God as an excuse for disgusting views and behavior.

In addition, I agree that some Albanians are too socially conservative and backward looking for my taste. Some traditions are good for historical value, but obsolete in this day and age. Got to move forward.

With regard to this article,
I don't condone any ethnically motivated violence on the Serbs in Kosovo, though I must admit to a bit of a guilty pleasure when I hear of one of these so-called priests getting their behinds kicked on occasion.

This reminds me of Arkan on his wedding day... the man was strutting around Belgrade with a huge cross on his chest...to profess his Christianity no doubt. I wonder whether this deacon that got harassed was wearing a cross of a similar size too ;-).

"Arta is for once, correct in mentioning the blood feuds as being part of the tradition. Disgustingly, she takes pride in this uncivilized and barbaric practice that has no place in Europe, let alone a civilized world. Time to join the rest of Europe in the 21st century, Albanians."

As bad as feuds are they target individuals who are connected to the killing, totally different from say, massacring 12,000 Albanian civilians or 8,000 Bosniaks in 2 days.

What's more civil?

As bad as feuds are they target individuals who are connected to the killing, totally different from say, massacring 12,000 Albanian civilians or 8,000 Bosniaks in 2 days.

What's more civil?
(aRTA, 11 August 2009 18:49)

There is no parallel. Feuds are feuds and backwards thing.
Other was a savage civil war. As for numbers - there are several versions and hopefully one day the undisputed truth will surface.

As for Kosovo - it is still a big mystery. Why can Albanians and Serbs produce some fine microcode controlling car electronics - once they work for American or German companies. But in Kosovo all they can "produce" is kicking a priest's car and swearing in Serbian to him.

Pretty much an under-achievement compared with the possibilities they have and that's the problem.

I have never laughed so hard in my life comparing this story to global jihad.

Oh no, global jihad!

“Samuel Huntington writes it so aptly: “Islam has bloody borders”. Israel is located precisely on that border. This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, just like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way of the Islamic advance. Just like West-Berlin was during the Cold War.”

Geert Wilders
Jerusalem
December 14, 2008

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/facing_jihad_jerusalem_2008/

"At around 13:00 CET, he came across a wedding procession, parked by the side of the road, in the village of Orlate. One of them blocked his way with his car, and then questioned Mitrić about who he was and why he was passing through there, trying to pull him out of the car," the statement said.

I hope everybody is familiar with wedding convoys.At all times one car will block intersections or if the convoy is making a turn and there is incoming traffic one car will block that so the convoy will move unimpeded.
Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.

"Someone was attacked and you think that is unimportant? With that attitude I understand why the province is a complete mess."

Someone SAID he was attacked. As one that lived through the 80's in Kosova I can tell you of many claims of "Churches destroyed, nuns raped" and other false charges.

That said, K-Albs (and Croats and Bosniaks) don't have much love for Serbian priests so maybe it happened.

What a bunch of cry babies.

We have had persecutions of Christians in the Middle East for several years by the forces of global jihad.

The Balkans are now also following this trend.

Will Europe and the US etc allow this to continue?

It would be a grave moral injustice were this to be the case.

I look forward to the visit of the Russian President later this year - I am sure the Russian President will have lots of issues to discuss with his Serbian counterpart.

Sorry - but that Julia Gorin is an other side of the same bad coin. Mildly speaking, not the best article. A kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and long mustache is just a kleftos. With all respect to their berxolle and fustanella - it is not easy to take them to the 21st Century. This is what all it is about, not some BS like "islam" and such.
--
Julia Gorin also stated that Bin Laden met with Sali Berisha and Thaci! Ha!

Good response Ataman but Serbs and Montengrins had to deal with Malsore, Dukagjinas, Shaljane, Lumjane etc in wool cakshire (Turkish word for pants.) As Russia started to build Serbia the fortunes switched.

Everyone needs to read Edith Durham or Noel Malcolm about society operates /d; ignore it at your own peril :-)

"`To say that the Turks have subjugated the Arnauts [i.e. Albanians] is not strictly correct. Their position is something like that of the French in the remoter parts of Algeria. They hold certain towns, the intervening country being occupied by independent tribes, governing themselves.' "

1700's: ""The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people, but nevertheless they have their own--and a very strict--code of honor and they are faithful even unto death""

"...the history of Kosovo and northern Albania is punctuated by a series of revolts caused by ill-starred official attempts to disarm the population. In the words of one English traveller of the 1880s: `The pride of a farmer in his livestock, or of a collector in his specimens, is nothing to the pride of an Albanian in his weapons. They are ... the guardians of his hearth, the object of his admiration, and his perpetual glory.'"

"An occasional paragraph in the English newspapers tells of an outbreak of "Albanian lawlessness,"–that [Turkish] troops have been sent to Ljuma, for example, to enforce the payment of cattle tax, or order the disarming of the population–an expedition that always fails. ."

"So you are now justifying crime by living in the past with made up stories? No wonder the province is so backwards. Wake up EULEX, another crime has just been committed."

First we're not sure a crime has been committed. One said it happened but...
Second, explaining why it MAY have happened, is different from justifying it.


Attaman: "but linking any particular ideology to unruly mountaineers is incorrect. "

The "unruly mountaineers" just wanted to be left alone, something Turks learned after a few bloody rebellions. You need to learn about the history from non-Serb or Albanian sources. Here is the truth:

"In perpetuity its Albanian peasants have lived under the threat of violent death. The need for protection led to a unique architecture still much in evidence on the plateau today: tall fortified farmhouses known as kulas (meaning towers), which are built of heavy stone, largely without windows, and with gun slits on the upper floors. It’s obvious that too much could be made of this. The Kanun reflects the lives of a hard people as much as it forms them. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Kosovo war was sparked and fought not by the urban sophisticates of Priština but by the tough country boys of places like Dukagjin. They had been insulted by Slobodan Milošević, Serbia’s president, and assaulted by his police. As much as a modern struggle for liberation, this war was their blood feud with the Serbs, and required by honor. The intervention on the Albanian side by American F-16s did not relieve them of the obligation. "
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/12/kosovo200812?printable=true¤tPage=all

Forgiving and forgetting is very hard for Albanians, and that can start ONLY after a sincere apology. Serbia was stronger for while, after being weak for a long time, who knows what the future brings.

There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)
--
Someone was attacked and you think that is unimportant? With that attitude I understand why the province is a complete mess.

"What a bunch of cry babies."
KOSOVARi

Look who's talking! At least we fight our own battles. We don't go crying to anyone else.

This proves that all those stories about the Serbs living in ghettos and unable to travel without KFOR protection are lies.

Some people just don't seem to realise that they were chased out of Kosova for being Serbs and not for being non-muslem. They may wonder why no Catholic Albanian ever left their home because of KLA!
The world moves forward while the Serbs continue to sing that same old nationalistic, racist warmongering tune.

@ "Kosovo-USA"

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked."
Galatians 6:7

Everytime there is an atrocity and a gross abuse of human rights, "Kosovo-USA" comes up with an excuse and an attempt to deceive others about what is an awful and inconvenient truth - jihadists and Islamofascists now 'control' Kosovo and much of the Balkans - read for example "The Coming Balkan Caliphate: The Threat of Radical Islam to Europe and the West" or Julia Gorin's EXCELLENT piece dealing with someone else who thought lies could be substituted for truth:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1048

(By the way - Julia Gorin is a true American unlike Kosova-USA because she really does support life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!)

One again the jihadists and their allies attack the innocent and - in this instance - a man of God.

Will "Kosovo-USA" now tell us that all those destroyed churches and monasteries were on the way of "wedding parties."

How ridiculous and shameful that someone could seek to "justify" such a disgusting action.

I hope US, EU etc policymakers are reading these posts. They are just further evidence of the 'Frankenstein' they have created - the only solution is to 'flip" the switch and end this terrible experiment.

"Arta is for once, correct in mentioning the blood feuds as being part of the tradition. Disgustingly, she takes pride in this uncivilized and barbaric practice that has no place in Europe, let alone a civilized world. Time to join the rest of Europe in the 21st century, Albanians."

As bad as feuds are they target individuals who are connected to the killing, totally different from say, massacring 12,000 Albanian civilians or 8,000 Bosniaks in 2 days.

What's more civil?

EU style democracy/human rights at its finest. So Serbs in Belgrade , this is what you will get when you sell your souls to the EUSSR

Ataman

I agree with some of your points. Yes, America does have a disturbing number of religious extremists (Christian and Jewish). This Gorin probably comes from the same type of Jews as the settlers in Israel...troublemakers who use God as an excuse for disgusting views and behavior.

In addition, I agree that some Albanians are too socially conservative and backward looking for my taste. Some traditions are good for historical value, but obsolete in this day and age. Got to move forward.

With regard to this article,
I don't condone any ethnically motivated violence on the Serbs in Kosovo, though I must admit to a bit of a guilty pleasure when I hear of one of these so-called priests getting their behinds kicked on occasion.

This reminds me of Arkan on his wedding day... the man was strutting around Belgrade with a huge cross on his chest...to profess his Christianity no doubt. I wonder whether this deacon that got harassed was wearing a cross of a similar size too ;-).

Repetitive weekly conflicts on etnical base clearly are pointing to the fact that there is no real chance for coexistence of two major ethnical communities involved in Kosovo.

Being realistic and dividing the Serbs and Albanians along ethnical lines, as international borders, is only lasting solution for the Province.

I have never laughed so hard in my life comparing this story to global jihad.

@ ataman

0.01% of your friends may ocassionally eat pork (as if I care what you eat) but most of your friends in Kosovo are ...the evidence is overwhelming.....they are the modern Taliban.

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=013255222075609514560%3Ayu16amghxpi&q=kosovo&sa=Search

Then again, Muslim Albanians have been caught telling lies before

http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=1965579

There will be no partition of Kosovo - Serbian land will not be traded for Serbian land!

So, now serbs should start kicking Albanian cars, if they in someway interrupt a Serbian wedding procession? This is why there will never be peace in Kosovo. People with a mentality like Kosovo USA, although most citizens in the USA respect other people's property, and not kick it, is the reason why Albanian run Kosovo is going nowhere.

'It adds that Mitrić refused to leave the vehicle, and that the attacker then kicked it with his feet, calling on other members of the procession in Serbian to join him.'

"In Serbian"??

Oh no, global jihad!

I hope everybody is familiar with wedding convoys.At all times one car will block intersections or if the convoy is making a turn and there is incoming traffic one car will block that so the convoy will move unimpeded.
Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)

Yes. I did met few wedding convoys. They were very friendly and waived to me and no one kicked the car.

God forbid - but could be that the major difference was: his car had old-style Yugoslav plates, my car had American plates with a large "USA" country oval sticker in the back?

What do you think?

George,

Sorry - but that Julia Gorin is an other side of the same bad coin. Mildly speaking, not the best article. A kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and long mustache is just a kleftos. With all respect to their berxolle and fustanella - it is not easy to take them to the 21st Century. This is what all it is about, not some BS like "islam" and such.

The Serbian answer to kleftos in fustanella with a long gun and a long mustache was a chetnik with long gun and a long mustache. It did not work well out, not really up to 21st Century either, but I am rather with them for whatever reason ;)

BTW: as we learned recently, that berxolle is made of pork - so much about "islamism".

Kosovo albanians long time ago perfected intimidation and pressure skills. they poisoned livestock and wells, destroyed crops, kidnaped, murdered, raped driving serbs out of kosovo for the last three decades at least long before they started killing cops. This is from 1987. "slavic" being serb
http://www.kunstradio.at/WAR/binder-nytimes.html
Ataman, sorry chetnik what? you mean those idiots that saved 500 american pilots during world war 2? little knowledge is dangerous.

Hi, Ataman - what surprised me was not that the "attacker" addressed the deacon in Serbian (it wasn't stated what language he used), but that he spoke to the other members of the wedding party in that language. So - a lone Albanian - the "attacker" was attending a Serbian wedding and trying to be helpful? (generally, a good sign), or maybe he was a Serbian assuming that the deacon was an Albanian, perhaps because of a number-plate mix-up such as you mention (not so good, but hardly a sign of Albanian hooliganism, either). Probably the only thing it's safe to assume is that plentiful quantities of alcohol were involved. No guns, apparently, and fortunately.

@ Ataman (again)

1 The KLA are not unruly “mountaineers” – they are a globally connected jihadist / racist/ organised crime group that persecutes non-Christians and non-Albanians. The links I have provided are clear enough.
2 Nearly every major single terrorist act has had links to Balkan Islamists and there has been cooperation with them and major figures such as Osama Bin Laden. David Hicks (the Australian KLA fighter who graduated to the Afghanistan Taliban) is but one example. It is a disaster that Saudi Wahhabism is spreading in Europe through Albania, Kosovo (which is Serbia) and Bosnia and it will the cause of many problems for Europe, the US and Israel in the near future (if not already)
3 Julia Gorin is not a Christian – she is Jewish and she knows what danger the Muslim Nazis (i.e. Islamofascists) pose in the Balkans and what they did in the Second World War. Get your facts straight.
4 I would not call George W Bush a Christian – no ‘Christian’ would help support the enemies of Christianity. The destruction of the Serbian Christian people and Christian civilisation in Kosovo under the watch of NATO, US, EU etc is a blight on humanity and true Americans are shocked at what their governments have done.

Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia

That said, K-Albs (and Croats and Bosniaks) don't have much love for Serbian priests so maybe it happened.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 15:31)
--
So you are now justifying crime by living in the past with made up stories? No wonder the province is so backwards. Wake up EULEX, another crime has just been committed.

"..Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13) "

The priest was probably alone when he was attacked else the article would more than likely have mentioned it.

And I somehow find the idea that a serb priest would be attempting to 'provoke' a mob of K-albanians just a wee bit implausible.. unless that is, you're the sort of person who blames someone for getting in the way of his fist.

Personally, don't know which is worse.. the story of the attack itself.. your blind nationalism in defending the actions of this cowardly thug.. or that so many of your compatriots share your viewpoint.

Whichever is the case, the lot of you should be ashamed.

"Unless this moving car with serbs tried to impede the movemant of convoy and to provoke the wedding participants, then obviously people will get upset and react. There is nothing of importanc or relevance to this story.
(Kosova-USA, 10 August 2009 10:13)"

Well I was figuring one of the excuses would could from either Kosova-USA or aRTA, our two resident Albanian excusers. True to form, they don't disappoint.

So Kosova-USA's brilliant analysis was that the wedding convoy was attacked by a lone Serbian deacon. In the middle of Albanian-controlled Kosovo. Unless this guy is super strong, or super stupid, the chances of such a scenario happening are unlikely.

More likely the deacon was driving without KS plates.

Either that, or being a wedding, the Albanian who harassed him was just plain drunk.

Forgiving and forgetting is very hard for Albanians, and that can start ONLY after a sincere apology. Serbia was stronger for while, after being weak for a long time, who knows what the future brings.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 18:52)


Now I understand all, you are really leaving in another century.

Talking about apology, can you pls ask your main criminal in Pristina, you know the snake, to apologize for the drug trafficking he managed to organize with his boys in switzerland!

"This proves that all those stories about the Serbs living in ghettos and unable to travel without KFOR protection are lies.
(BH_NYC, 11 August 2009 09:33)"

It only proves that they can try to move around without KFOR protection. It also proves they need the protection.

Kosova-USA

I've read your comments for the last couple of months and every time Albanians commit crimes against Serbs you find excuses for the behaviour of your people and the justification for their actions regardles of how despicable the deed. Even if you were not there and don't know what happend you think you have the answer to everything that happens. You are begining to run out of excuses to defend atrocities against Serbs civilians. This type of behaviour can not be defended in the long run.

This was a daily thing in Kosmet during albanian uprisings.

Ataman, sorry chetnik what? you mean those idiots that saved 500 american pilots during world war 2? little knowledge is dangerous.
(smile, 10 August 2009 16:26)

I mean the original term, not the WW-II. My terminology was not strict, since "kleftos" is a Greek word, but describes pretty well what I do mean. Don't tell me, there weren't enough Serbs and Greeks with long mustache. The (only) major difference is fustanella.

Serbs are lucky at least they have no quarrel with Albanians about who invented the fustanella. Greeks are in more tough position, but they to, have my support.

But to speak seriously, all this is ridiculous and really reminds me of Asterix' village with obligatory village-fight about the fish being stinky or not.

BTW: weren't Illyrians and Celts (see Asterix) indeed related? That explains a lot...

George,

I share your view about Serbia itself, but linking any particular ideology to unruly mountaineers is incorrect.

They have nothing to do per se with Taliban (neither Pashtuns do!) or other islamic insanities. They have their own idea called "Greater Albania" and every ideology they adopt is ought to serve that one.

But certain circles in Saudi Arabia like to spread their influence and try hard. And certain neo-Christian hillbillies like Julia Gorin do Serbia more harm than good.

Serbia does not need her and her neo-con neo-"Christian" hillbillies as allies. We had Bush bad enough as opponent.

In general, I am not sure when Americans are worse: as friends or as opponents. Best is if they are 100% out of the area and concentrate on their own problems.

"Everyone needs to read Edith Durham or Noel Malcolm about society operates /d; ignore it at your own peril :-)"

Indeed the famous Noel Malcom President(or maybe now former) of the London based Anglo-Albanian Society for a few years. He doesn't like to advertise this little fact.

Another 'impartial' historian who claims to know the 'truth'. LOL!

"In Serbian"??
(Amer, 10 August 2009 17:33)

Of course. If not last week I had to have a conversation in a quasi-Russian/Serbian mix with a lady from Pristina...

Usual "Green Card" woes (solved in the meantime). As you know, not easy to insure a car with US plates in Europe.... and how about several cars?

Here "KosovA" comes handy. As a law-less place with everything being possible - that is possible, too. Called insurance company in Pristina, tried English and German. After few minutes they decided to switch... to my little surprise.

Once I asked directions on the street - the Albanian pedestrians seeing my car being "safe" (hehe, I removed the Russian plate holder in K. Mitrovica) - just wanted to talk in language I did not expect them.

Hence the lession: if you see a car with USA plates, do not assume, there aren't Serbs or Russians inside.

But of course my plate holder which is Russian - will be always removed before I enter KosMet. You know... just in case ;-)

"In Serbian"??

like you don't know why but here i'll explain :)
Like i said perfect intimidation technique in albanians. Of course the criminal who went after the priest, his kin knew what he was doing. He didnt need to tell them anything He simply wanted the priest to know that he was preparing lynch mob for him. that's why he shouted in serbian. to scare the man to terrorise him.

Mike, when you say excusers you surely mean deniers?

'this war was their blood feud with the Serbs,'

Thank you so much for writing this. i've been saying it forever. that's whats going on in kosovo that's why our graves are demolished, people killed and 1000 years old monasteries burned. it's albanian blood feud in this pretty europe of ours in the 21st century. isn't it amazing? anyway only silly westerners who never walked under one of them 2 metre walls dont know that.

The "unruly mountaineers" just wanted to be left alone, something Turks learned after a few bloody rebellions.
(aRTA, 10 August 2009 18:52)

Two "but"-s to this and one thing extra:

1) But we live in 21st Century.
2) But the methods deployed by the mountaineers were not really "gentleman-like".
What happened with the priest was a minor thing, indeed - but not really gentleman-like.
3) Little extra: you can argue, Serbs did not behave always gentleman-like either. And I will say: "eye-for-an-eye means the entire planet will be blind" (Gandhi, if I recall).

---------------

The "kula" architecture is well-known, in particular you can see it in the famous village of Arbanasi, Bulgaria. Of course, "Arbanasi" means "Albanians". Now - how come that Bulgarians did not live in "kula"-s, only Albanians? They were not any less under Turkish rule?

As Bulgarian guides would explain, the main purpose of Kula-s was to shield Albanian families from each other, not from Turks or Bulgarians. See the Kanun you mention.

Or to repeat myself: that's precisely the challenge to be in 21st Century (for the tough boys from Dukagjin you mentioned).


No objection to softies and sophisticates from Priština. Dukagjin Drenica and the rest must grow up. And it is bad enough, now the "tough boys" became the "fat cats" - and not to everyone's liking.

And if "forgiving" is not learned, than see Gandhi's comment about "eye-for-an-eye".

"1700's: ""The Albanians today are a warlike, lawless people..."

- Not much has changed in 300 years it seems. Arta is for once, correct in mentioning the blood feuds as being part of the tradition. Disgustingly, she takes pride in this uncivilized and barbaric practice that has no place in Europe, let alone a civilized world. Time to join the rest of Europe in the 21st century, Albanians.

"Some people just don't seem to realise that they were chased out of Kosova for being Serbs and not for being non-muslem. They may wonder why no Catholic Albanian ever left their home because of KLA!
The world moves forward while the Serbs continue to sing that same old nationalistic, racist warmongering tune.
(BH_NYC, 11 August 2009 14:43)"

Which people have said this? Non on this comments board have.

As far as I can remember the accusation has always been that Albanians have chased out non-Albanians be they Serbs, Slavis Muslims like the Gorani, Roma, etc.

As bad as feuds are they target individuals who are connected to the killing, totally different from say, massacring 12,000 Albanian civilians or 8,000 Bosniaks in 2 days.

What's more civil?
(aRTA, 11 August 2009 18:49)

There is no parallel. Feuds are feuds and backwards thing.
Other was a savage civil war. As for numbers - there are several versions and hopefully one day the undisputed truth will surface.

As for Kosovo - it is still a big mystery. Why can Albanians and Serbs produce some fine microcode controlling car electronics - once they work for American or German companies. But in Kosovo all they can "produce" is kicking a priest's car and swearing in Serbian to him.

Pretty much an under-achievement compared with the possibilities they have and that's the problem.

“Samuel Huntington writes it so aptly: “Islam has bloody borders”. Israel is located precisely on that border. This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, just like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way of the Islamic advance. Just like West-Berlin was during the Cold War.”

Geert Wilders
Jerusalem
December 14, 2008

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/facing_jihad_jerusalem_2008/

pss:
The 'story' here was probably along the lines of some thug with a bit of drink in him deciding to 'have a bit of fun' with a serbian orthodox priest.

That that 'fun' probably involved:
1: trying to drag the priest out of his car for a 'good-natured' beating,
2: attempting to intimidate the priest by calling out to his mates for assistance in getting the priest out of his car - in 'serbian' so that the priest would understand his 'good-natured' intentions, and
3: then kicking in the door panels of the priests car as a 'good-natured' send-off..

..is hardly something most reasonable people would find amusing.

If this is the type of behavior this K-albanian coward is capable of when he's 'happy', god knows what he's capable of when he's not.

1 The KLA are not unruly “mountaineers” – they are a globally connected jihadist / racist/ organised crime group that persecutes non-Christians and non-Albanians. The links I have provided are clear enough.
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Correct on the surface but wrong analysis. KLA roots are the Albanian mountain brigands. Romans had to assign a legion to "pacify" the area. And how successful they were - today we have KLA.
It was no jihad at the time of Caesars, BTW.

As for jihad: it is merely an excuse to do the same criminal activity as it was done in Roman times. Illyrians were infamous pirates, for instance. Thracians were not the most peaceful group either.

-------------

2 Nearly every major single terrorist act has had links to Balkan Islamists and there has been cooperation with them and major figures such as Osama Bin Laden. David Hicks (the Australian KLA fighter who graduated to the Afghanistan Taliban) is but one example. It is a disaster that Saudi Wahhabism is spreading in Europe through Albania, Kosovo (which is Serbia) and Bosnia and it will the cause of many problems for Europe, the US and Israel in the near future (if not already)
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Again: looks like being correct on the surface, but you conveniently forget Iran which has nothing to do with Osama. Iran is at roots of current trouble in Iraq and they are behind almost every recent terror act against Israel. Iran and Osama are essentially "competitors". IMO, it is a mistake to create a global evil figure (Osama). His organization is by far not as significant as some American politicians want us to believe.

-------------

3 Julia Gorin is not a Christian – she is Jewish and she knows what danger the Muslim Nazis (i.e. Islamofascists) pose in the Balkans and what they did in the Second World War. Get your facts straight.
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

- OK, I stand corrected - she is than a Jewish nut, not a neo-"Christian" nut. Unfortunately, America is a hotbed for nuts. :-(
- We know about WW-II not any worse - maybe even better - than Julia Gorin.
- KLA is an opportunist criminal group, not islamo-fascists. They can use any ideology at will. Their root ideology is "Albanism", but with some modification to accept the old "klephtos" tradition
- Both Saudi Wahabbites and Iranian mullahs are THE islamo-fascists. KLA is opportunist.

-------------

4 I would not call George W Bush a Christian
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

If you look precisely, Dubyah was called neo-"Christian" and neo-con.
FYI: "Christian" and "neo-Christian" is not Chistian (without ""). And "neo-conservative" is not "conservative". Christian or Jewish: Dubyah is just an other side of the same bad American coin Julia Gorin and that web site you did show represent.

We better off without them.

-------------

Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia + Kosovo is Serbia
(George – stop the KLA Islamofascists!, 11 August 2009 02:15)

Yes, of course, Косово jе Србиjа - but without Julia Gorin, Dubya and all the garbage from overseas. Islamo-fascists are a different story, only loosely connected to it. But here, Iranian mullahs are by no means better than Saudi Wahabbites. Both belong to the garbage dump of the history. No double standards.