Sunday, 09.08.2009.
14:22
Former U.S. Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger said that Greece "must grow up" and recognize that Macedonia has the right to whatever name it wants.
Izvor: Tanjug
pre 12 godina
very brief.please note everithing about macedonia.before 1940 FYROM area
was named VARDATSIKA.in 1942-3 the communist countries,soviet union,yugoslavia etc. desided to have access to agean sea and to do that
they called vardatsica macedonia with a plan to take over part of greece,
macedonia all the way to olymbus mnt. also thessaloniki[intended to be
their capital] halkidiki etc greeks won with help of USA genral VAN FLEET
pre 14 godina
Well Niv, I agree on one thing with you, YOU SHOULD BE SORRY. Sorry for the fact that you lack the knowledge of history which pertains to Macedonia. It is clear that you have no knowledge of what happened in Macedonia less than one hundred years ago(partition 1913) yet you make a claim with reference to 3000 years ago.
Macedonia doesn't need to take anyones identity because she has HER OWN history and identity. It is ONLY the greeks that are so ignorant of history that refuse to admit that fact. As to what I and many other knowledgable people read. Well, again I will let you and all of your nationalist friends know that everything I have read is the TRUE HISTORY OF MACEDONIA and not the false propaganda that greece tries to spread. Someday you and your friends will come out of that dark greek cloud of false information and realize the truth.
Aleksandar and his father were both MACEDONIAN and NOT greek, a well known fact that you are obviously unaware of.
MACEDONIA was NEVER GREEK and historical documents prove that fact.
pre 14 godina
I'm sorry claiming Alexander of Macedon to be Greek is a construct of the west to break up Yugoslavia is absurd to say the least.
How western is India, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq and Egypt? Why is it no one in these countries are aware of the claims of Skopje? Why is it these people always refer to the Greeks when speaking about Alexander and his armies? Why is it that a so called foreigner decided to wipe the identity of his own people off of the face of the earth to promote another ethnicity? Simply because what you are trying to say about it is a made up lie and everyone knows what the identity of this man and his people were.
Macedonia has over the centuries been inhabited by Greeks, and Serbs, Bulgarians and Turks, there's no denying that. But what you and your brethren are repeatedly trying to do is steal away an area and identity that isn't yours. Macedonia has been inhabited by Greek speaking people for almost three thousand years now and it goes back to the time that you are trying to claim is irrelivant.
You can read anything you want but to continuously spew that the history we are debating is a Greek construct is not worth debating anymore, your people are all alone on that one. Believe what you want to believe but the history is well documented and totally against you.
Good luck, maybe you guys can try and steal Italian history now. The Roman Province of Macedonia did actually contain your territory, maybe you can erect a few statues of Julius Ceasar instead and rename your Highway the Nero 1.
It's not too late you're just getting started on your made up ethnicity maybe the Italians will be more willing to give up their history.
pre 14 godina
NO ONE IS RELATED TO THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS! Their tribes no longer exist, nor do the Paionian, Thracian or Illyrian tribes so stop trying to claim them everybody! This name dispute goes much deeper than a name or ancient history.
In the Republic of Macedonia, the claim to Alexander and the Ancient Macedonian tribes is an attempt by the west to further dissipate Yugoslavia by making Macedonians think they have nothing in common with Serbs and other Slavs (which is not working to well by the way)
In Greece, the claiming of ancient Macedonia is an attempt for Greece to secure without a shadow of a doubt it's own province of Macedonia within its borders because it not only has the port of Thessaloniki but because it has fertile land that without, Greece would just be rocks and mountains and Greek food would just be fish and olives. (But honestly, who's going to take Greek land?)
Everybody needs to look at more recent history and the more recent history of Macedonia is that from Thessaloniki to Skopje it was one region with various ethnicities and nationalities living side by side (like a Switzerland of the Balkans) and all of them considered themselves Macedonians despite ethnic roots until all the outside powers during the Balkan Wars cut it up into pieces and created the problems that exist in the region today. So who has the right to say who is and who is not Macedonian when many different peoples throughout history have called themselves Macedonians? Why should only the Greeks or only the Slavic Macedonians be able to call themselves Macedonia when both have for centuries?
If you look at the Ilinden uprising, most of the revolutionaries didn't care if you called yourself a Bulgar, a Serb or a Greek or whatever, just that everybody was Macedonian and had to fight together against the Turks. It's a shame that all sides look at Alexander instead of the heroes who fought to free Macedonia from Ottoman oppression. When any of these revolutionaries laid claim to Alexander it was as more of a battle call than a recognition of national identity, unlike today.
pre 14 godina
Niv, it is clear that you are unaware that historical facts exist outside of greece. The history I read it the TRUE history which exists in France, Russia, England, Turkey, Austria, and many others(including your own greece). Greece is the only one that does not allow access to it simply because they want to cover up and twist the truth.
It is also clear that you are unaware that these same countries played a very large role in the partition of Macedonia in 1913. The same partition which allowed your greece to annex a large part of the country of Macedonia. It is this very event that your greek gov't denies the same way they deny the existence of minorities let alone Macedonians. If you are under the assumption that knowone knows the truth, you are mistaken.
If you and many other greek nationalists would open up your minds and take that greek propaganda box off your heads, you would know all of this instead of displaying your ignorance.
Since you asked, that is the history I read, the TRUTH. I have also read the greek LIES and am wise enough to determine that all of it is exactly that, LIES AND FALSE PROPAGANDA. I am studying it so I can separate the TRUTH from the LIES and so far the greeks story falls in the LIES category.
I would also enlighted you on one very important fact you have been misinformed on. Aleksandar the Great and his father Phillip WERE NOT greek. They were in fact both MACEDONIAN. The fact that you have been misinformed on this clearly displays your lack of education on this subject. Another important fact is that MACEDONIA WAS NEVER greek. If it was, we would not be talking about MACEDONIA AND greece, the subject would be only greece.
THAT IS THE HISTORY I READ!
The facts are out there, you just have to be willing to study and embrace the truth and not the lies. Any map and any book in any time of history shows that MACEDONIA and greece were two SEPARATE lands.
That is any book or map outside of greece. The greeks are stuck on 100% ethnically pure with no minorities. (I am trying not to laugh when I hear this). And the greeks consider themselves educated.
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia what are you talking about when you say we should read history books that aren't part of Greek propaganda?
I have read many, many history books and they are written and taught in higher places of learning throughout the civilized world.
What history books do you read beside the books and articles written by your people?
Every debate with a Skopjian seems to be a trip into upside down world as the same things are always parroted over and over.
History is on our side, not what we've written but what has been passed down by so many others. If you were to ask people who have no stake in this matter, ie Indians, Persian, Egyptians and the like you would find that if you asked was Alexander the Great Greek, they'd look at you as if your insane and say "Of course he was".
Find a real argument when re-writing history, it definitely is not on your side.
pre 14 godina
To both Boris and Niv, it is very clear that you both have limited knowledge of all the documented facts that I have written. It is also clear that you only believe the greek propaganda that has been spread by the greek gov't.(which category would that be ignorant, foolish or falsly educated?)
When there are two sides to a disagreement, any rational person will look to more that one source of information to try and find the true answer. Both of you clearly display the opposite. You are only repeating the same lies that the greek propaganda machine has taught you. It is also very clear that you refuse to even address any of the facts that the greek gov't took part in less than one hundred years ago.
There are people alive today that suffered through the ethnic cleansing, torture and oppression the greek gov't committed.
Your own greek gov't denies that any of this took place the same way you do(annexation in 1913, along with an attempt to eliminate any existence of Macedonians soon after that with a population exchange).
All greeks have to understand that just because they and only they deny a fact does not mean it is not true. A clear example of this is the well known fact that greece claims to be 100% ethnically pure. Any rational person with a limited education knows THAT is a foolish claim, however the greeks pride themselves at that.
The greeks also have to realize that they are not the only ones which know history. There are others outside of greece that also know historical facts. These are facts which could not be influenced by greek politicians.
All facts which I have referred to are documented in many countries(France, Italy, Russia, Austria, England, Turkey just to name a few). I have personally studied the documents in France and Italy simply because I had the desire to learn the truth which is something you both should try and do instead of refusing to learn something that may not agree with what you have been taught in the greek education system filled with false propaganda.
To also clear things up, Tito was an ally of the greeks and Macedonia was not a creation of his mind. Macedonia was a republic of the Yugoslav federation. Macedonia had the same rights that all the other republics had in the federation. Tito just did not deny its existence like greece does to this day. In fact Milosevic and greece had a secret aggreement to try and repartition Macedonia during the collapse of Yugoslavia. They just failed because the rest of the world stepped up and told greece to mind her own bussiness.
Both of you should try to learn the truth instead of trying to spread false greek propaganda. Both of you need to realize that the world has educated people outside of greece and they are fully capable of learning the truth. Greece just likes to take the truth and put a greek twist on it with the hope that noone will compare the lies with facts from outside of greece. This is the same thing you are both doing but I am happy to say you and the greek gov't are failing. Expand your mind and read the facts outside of greece, not just the greek twisted lies.
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia how sad that you have to cling to fabricated lies and examples of Rome to try and justify your position.
The Roman territory they referred to as Macedonia was much larger than the original Greek Macedonia. I believe the Roman administration expanded the name to include areas of Paonneia which is where you are from. Never during the reign of the Hellenistic Macedonian kingdoms did they call the same territory by that name.
Constantly drumming the same diatribe about Macedonia was always known as Macedonia and not Greece will never prove your position.
That is true in ancient times Macedonia was always referred to as Macedonia, just as Thesssaly was always referred to as Thessaly, Sparta was Sparta, Athens was Athens, and the examples go on and on.
Having a distinct name never ceased any of these people from being able to claim a common kinship and race. Why is it so difficult to understand that the Greek world stretched to many parts of the Balkans as well as the Mediterranean and Anatolia? Can you not understand what the Greek world meant?
There were Hellenic leagues that all of these states and kingdoms belonged together. Philip II was a member of a Pan Hellenic league long before he became the conquerer of this same Greek world.
What you keep telling us are lies and the fact that you simply cannot comprehend written language. The history of the Greek people is known by all who care to educate themselves.
Finally the southern part of the Greek peninsula was always known as Hellas and in the North there were the Molossian and Macedonian kingdoms. This referred to the geography but since the inception of the Macedonian kingdom in the time around 600 BC it was always known as a Greek kingdom which at that time was a brand new kingdom. This hardly can be enough to prove any kind of point beyond your ignorance of history.
pre 14 godina
To Aleksandar of Makedonia,
Honestly, do you believe the things you say?, or are you cut & pasting all the arguments fabricated by the nationalist blogs and websites you tend to get your info from?
Who is most likely to suffer from false information I ask you?
Greece?: Greek citizens can leave their borders without a visa requirement. Something that FYRoMians can not do.
FYRoM has a 33% illiteracy rate, Greece has 3%.
FYRoMian Television airs
Government sponsored spots,
with God claiming that FYRoMians are the white race,
true masters of earth, and all the rest are Negroids and
mongols..
In Greece such a thing is perceived as mere comedy.
Greece does not rename streets and stadiums after other nations heroes. FYRoM's current government does.
Greece is living for the future. FYRoM is stuck in the past.
FYRoM forbids by law!, any scientific research, regarding its ethnicity and cultural past.
Greece does not.
How sad it makes me to see the results of 17 years of state sponsored propaganda, has done to the children of this newly born state..
Instead of embracing UNIVERSALY accepted truths,
they strive to rewrite history that is whritten in more than 3000 ancient Macedonian inscriptions.
All in Greek.
Not a single ancient Macedonian inscription is written in any other language but Greek.
350, and counting, university scholars around the world sign a petition that says that ancient Macedonia was Greek.
Only a handful, say the opposite, and guess what...
they are all from FYRoM or its diaspora...
Who is in the right.. I wonder...
pre 14 godina
The one thing I will agree with is Macedonia has been here since 600 B.C.
If you would take your head out of the greek propaganda box and look outside of the greek misinformation, you too could learn the truth. Macedonia has NEVER been greece. If you have ever seen a map of Roman history, you would know that Macedonia and greece have always been two different lands. You can look at any map you like of any era and you and anyone interested will see that Macedonia and greece have always been addressed as two separate lands.
The fact that Macedonia and any reference to it prior to 1988 was illegal and forbidden by the greek gov't is true and you not knowing about it shows your lack of historical knowledge(or ignorance, you pick) about Macedonia or greece for that matter.
If greece was Macedonia, as many greeks claim, then why is it called greece? I hope you, with your wealth of knowledge(or lack of it), can explain that.
You are abviously ignorant about the mass ethnic cleansing of Macedonians greece committed in the early 1900's. Those Macedonians that remained were forbidden to mention anything Macedonian let alone speak the Macedonian language. If you want the truth, you have to look to sources outside of greece where the greek propaganda machine is hard at work trying to cover up the truth.
I suppose non of the lack of knowledge is your fault since that is what you have been taught, however, if you don't want to learn the truth by comparing it with outside sources, it is your fault for believing false information.
Why too did greece change the name of "Northern greece" in 1988? Is that something you don't know either?
I suggest you and all greeks read at least one of the books I mention above and expand your mind on this issue(maybe the one with the author with the greek name).
Did you know too, that greece is ethnically 100% ethnically pure? Just by claiming that the greeks are making fools of themselves. I hope you will wake up and realize that these are foolish claims by the greek gov't and that the FALSE propaganda greece is trying to spread about Macedonia is no longer believed anymore because the truth is out.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no clue what he is talking about nor is his example about Mexico relevant.Clearly FYROM is right next to Greece and to allow it to use the name Macedonia would cause confusion as there is already a province in Greece by the name of Macedonia.
pre 14 godina
Mr Eagleburger is not stupid not toundertsand the real issues of the situation of the FYROM. He was one of the architects of the nationalistic policy of this US protectorate. Greece has the right to protect its sovereingty from any attack under any guise, name or other wise and from whom ever it comes foe or nominal friend.
pre 14 godina
Show me where it was illegal to refer to Macedonia, I've heard this ridiculous claim before and it only comes from Skopjian's.
Northern Greece is made up of several provinces Epirus, Thrace and Macedonia.
What you and your country men are stating here is a complete fabrication and its not surprising as you and your country men are a fabricated fake country.
Macedonia has been referred to as Macedonia from around 600 BC.
Tell us another lie Alexander of Skopje, maybe you can prove that it was illegal to refer to Northern Greece as Macedonia?
pre 14 godina
I find it very interesting how all these socalled "grown up and educated greeks" have a hard time learning and understanding recent history (less than 100 years) let alone ancient history. I would ask any of them to explain why greece renamed "Northern greece" to "Macedonia" in 1988? The other is why it was illegal and Forbidden to make any reference to anything Macedonian prior to 1988?
Surely with all their growing up and education of 4000 yrs they would all be able to answer these simple questions. It is interesting how all of a sudden greece fell in love with someone elses name and history(Macedonia's) and claim it as their own.
I challenge any greek to try to study greek archives and find the answer to this if they don't know it. You will find that your own greek gov't will DENY you access to that information.
After your failed attempt at this information, I would suggest that you and anyone interested in finding the truth read the following books. "Macedonia and the Macedonians" is the first which is written by Andrew Rossos(in case you have trouble recognizing it, that is a greek name). The second is "Macedonia and Greece" written by John Shea. Both of these authors attempted to bring the greek side of this argument out but were swiftly denied access to archives by the greek gov't. What are the greeks hiding?
Some of the things that greece is hiding is the harassment, torture and even murder that took place for just any reference to anything Macedonian. That is untill 1988 when suddenly they love Macedonia. Also, the expelling of nearly 28,000 children between the ages of 2 and 14 in 1948 alone.
These are only a few of the things that are explained in these books and all interested should read them if they want to learn the truth. If you are greek however, you will probably deny all this simply because that is what you have been taught in your greek schools.
It seems that many greeks are ignorant of the truth and refuse to learn the truth. One cannot blame another for being ignorant but if you deny the truth when it is in your face.
Now for a little education in history. Macedonia was a country which was partitioned in 1913 and greece annexed the southern portion of Macedonia the same way it annexed Thassally in 1881. Serbia and Bulgaria got the other parts. For 75 years (1913-1988) greece wanted nothing to do with anything Macedonian( in fact even mentioning the name Macedonia was forbidden and illegal). Then in 1988, "Northern greece" was renamed to "Macedonia".
I welcome any greek to explain these facts to those interested.
Instead of spreading false greek propaganda, try dealing with the truth.
pre 14 godina
The name Makedonia belongs to Greece. FYROM is what your name is and should be. You can blame fromer Yugoslavia President Tito for the name decision.
pre 14 godina
Illyrian language tied to Albanian, maybe, maybe not, who really cares here right now?
George Kastriotis was a great hero who fought defending the Balkans against the Turks, that is undeniable. What also is undeniable is that the Albanian people are traitors to their own hero as they converted their culture to Islam for an easier ride.
What is not debatable here is the Illyrian claims of the nationality and geneology of the Macedonian people and Alexander the Great's family, but this connection is still trying to be claimed.
Give it up, you have no tie whatsoever to the Macedonian people of Greece.
pre 14 godina
To: All who deny illyrian - albanian connections,
Dear fellows, just search on google about albanian language and you will see how it was classified from foreign languistics (not albanians did the study), so albanian language belongs to indoeuropian family and is considered as the most ancient language together with armenian language and has nothing to do with turk language (somebody was saying that albanians comes to ballcan peninsula with turks hahahaha, shame who does not know that Gjergj Kastriota fought against turks and protected europe from turk invasion for three decades, his statue you can find in many big cities of europe). Also you can not find any other nation language that has anything in common with illyrian, only albanians have, why? simply because albanians are direct descendandts of illyrians... also all genetic analysis of bones that has been found in ancient tombs in Albania and in other parts of balcan has the same genetic chain as of albanians of today. Dear there are no doubs about albanian - illyrian connections, but lets do not go back to history, lets see the future and solve the problems of today, lets give peace to people of today whomever they are, like this we will make prosperity for humanity!
Peace to All!!!
pre 14 godina
"I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually? "
posted by Bulgar
Well if everyone agrees on the FYROM position that is in effect the re-writing of history isn't? Once you accept that FYROM's position do you not expose yourself to irridentist activities in the future?
It's faulty logic to think you can accept someone's fabrication of their own history and then expect things to return to normal, that has nothing to do with being insecure of who you are, that has everything to do with inoculating future generations from having to deal with this.
As for Luli "Alexander was 100% Illyrian". Maybe the single dumbest post on this site. Please provide a source for this amazing find, simply your statement is false.
I look forward to reading your source. On the other hand I can provide an endless amount of sources showing the Greekness of Alexander, Philip and the Macedonians.
pre 14 godina
Ballkan: Älexander the Great was half Ilyrian half helen".
No. Alexander the Great was 100% Ilyrian, so Albanian. otherwise, Greeks can do whatever with some prts of Macedonia, but not with those ones in which Albanian population is Albanian (including Ohrid, Struga and Eastern Skopje).
pre 14 godina
Maybe needless to day but Greece has grown up. More precisely, it has grown up over thousands of years, actually. Erm... how long has America been around?
pre 14 godina
To: Jovan,
I see that you absolutely disagree with Illyrian origine of albanian, because has been said to you many times and also pushed not to accept it. BTW I will give you some very simple example, from romans Illyrains has been called ILIRI and that is the right name, today albanians use the same word to ILIRI to say "BE FREE" or "FREE MAN" and in fact the Illyrian Kingdom was called by the others on that time "the land of free people" so this is one undisputable fact.
Other fact, lot of names of illyrian people has been passed through ages among albanians, why?
Other fact, read the book "Illyricum Sacrum" that speaks about christianity of albanians and then tell to the world the albanians - illyrians connections!
I am not denying that slav origin is from Carpats and they arrived to ballcan peninsula in VII century, this the fact and everybody knows...
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleburger needs to go back to grammar school to learn history in the Balkans,before commenting on this matter. Or is it that he has some interest in Skopia.
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
(George, 11 August 2009 02:42)
Good idea.I am sure this guy Eagelberger would be the first to make a fuss about it
pre 14 godina
I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually?
If the Greeks are so sure about there history then why worry. Its like being in denial about your sexuality, if your straight then no one can tell you otherwise, no need to worry, unless your not or simply confused.
If its that painful then Greece should changes its name to Macedonia.
But we all the why the Greek government continues to play the nationalistic card, if the Greek government really wanted to they could have solved the name dispute 18 years ago.
It doesnt bother FYROMANIANS that Greeks claim Macedonia, each to there own..
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger, how about you mind your own business and also how about your best friends from skojpe call there country U.S.A., they are not american right? but who cares, they are allowed to name there country whatever they want? is that right Eagleburger? MAKEDONIA IS ONLY GREEK AND WILL ALWAYS BE GREEK....
pre 14 godina
Don't try and bite the hand that feeds you people.... Macedonia is Greece.
pre 14 godina
"I think that it is wrong for Greece to get involved in Macedonia’s internal affairs"
The Americans would never do anything like that HAHA.
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
pre 14 godina
Azerbaijan province and country, Luxemburg Belgium and country.
That's pretty good. But having the same name is exactly where the similarities end here.
Luxemburg province became that after it was divided from Luxemburg the country when Belgium had its revolution in the 19th century. Essentially the people that live in the region were all country men, were they not?
As for Azebiajan these people are directly related as well are they not? They speak the same Turkic language, essentially share the same culture and are Shia Muslim's as well. There are more to tie these two examples together then there are to seperate them.
In the example of the FYROM there is no common language, no common history and no common geneology.
Your attempt here to justify the FYROM position therefore falls way short of proving any point.
pre 14 godina
I never wrote that Albanians came from Azerbaijan.I said, that is the Serbian official. You people shouldn't be afraid of the words if you think you have the right on your side. Stop censuring posts and turning them in pro serbian posts.
pre 14 godina
Does Luxembourg complain about Belgium's province of Luxembourg? Does Azerbaijan complain about the Iranian province of Azerbaijan? Not as far as I'm aware.
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
(Radoslav, 9 August 2009 20:10)
Albanians came from Azerbaijan.But somehow we managed to get the prime estate on the Mediteranean Sea while the Serbs opted for being land locked.Even if there was some truth on the serbian propaganda that Albanians stole Kosovo,it is like the Thief yelling catch the thief.
pre 14 godina
The comparison with Mexico and America is ridiculous and shows that he is either he has no idea on the actual issues at the heart of the problem, or the more likely explanation that he is on some lobby groups payroll, most likely a group sponsored by Sorros or connected to him in some way.
If the American state of Texas gained independence, and then changed it's name to Republic of Mexico and started claiming Ancient Mexican history, then that would be a similar and fair comparison.
But he has used the type of government to make a comparisson.
pre 14 godina
to "Ballkan":
even if Alexander the Great was half illyrian, ...you´re simply off the way with your idea that the illyrians are the ancestors of todays Albanians...
that´s purely wishful thinking, an ideology invented to give the Albanians some kind of good feeling, of "being someone", but if you put all the known historical facts together - there is no single arifact, no single archeological site, simply nothing [!) that would indicate this illyrian-albanian connection.
so, better do yourself a favour and "grow up"!
todays Albanians have taken language-segments from the illyrians, since they had no consolidated national unity in the meaning of modern nations, it was just some part of a language of a vanished ethnicity that was assimilated by all the modern balkan-nations, such as Serbs, Croats, Greeks and of course also Albanians.
the only reason why you took over illyrian language segments and the others did not, is that you had no strong culture to cling to when the illyrians influenced you.
that´s what makes you so desperately believing in the illyrian myth.
so, Eagleburger should actually tell the Albanians to grow up....
pre 14 godina
Balkan I have to disagree with your your stating that Alexander was half Illyrian and half Greek.
That is a mistake many make as Olympia Alexander III's mother was a Mollosian Princess. The Mollosians were in fact a Greek kingdom similar in structure to the Macedonian kingdom. Olympia's family claimed to be direct descendants of Achilles while Philip's family claimed direct descendancy to Heracles. I'm sure I don't have to explain the Greekness of those heros, whether they were mythological or not.
The Illyrian idea is false and mostly floated by Albanians as the phenomena of encroaching on Greek histroy is nothing new.
Let's not forget that a former Turkish President wrote a book explaining how Turks were the original inhabitants of the Agean and Aristotle, Plato and company were Turkish.
The more I think of this issue makes me think there isn't another country on earth that has faced this type of historical theft ever. The Jews come close with some fabrications by Muslim's regarding Jerusalem's place, but Greeks seem to have everyone trying to claim their history. It's become so bad that some are now claiming the Macedonians and Alexander were Celts.
Somebody please correct me, but is there another country on earth that has had more claims on its history than Greece?
pre 14 godina
Dos Eagleburger have any financial interests in the Balkans?
We all know the answer to that question.
Playing devil's advocate here, but let's say I gant Greece's position is stupid. Is there anything more idiotic than Eagleburger's analogy about the United States of Mexico? United is not a proper name. It's an adjective. A state is not a proper name either. Americans don't go around calling themselves United Statians. Ludicrous.
pre 14 godina
The problem is that Eagleburger is comparing a country with a few hundred years of history, where it annexed the culture and history, America...to a region with thousands of years of history! Eagleburger is good for soundbites, not for long term.
pre 14 godina
Dear All,
I am not against the history, to know history is really good, but I am against of any attempt to make troubles and conflicts because of history... Even the Alexander the Great, as per opinions of lot of historians was half hellenic and half illyrian, so mother illyrian (today albanian) and father hellenic (today greece), even if it was not like this nothing changes for us, why? because whoever Alexander was, he was much more civilized and open minded than leaders of today, he joined the culters, west with east, he did great things thats why he was GREAT...
Botom line: Please call on greece and macedonian leadership to meet and define the issue, solve the problem and make processes go forward and open roads to people of today to have progress and prossperity.
If it was alive Alexander he could have done that!
pre 14 godina
There are thee different issues. The name of the country and its people, the officialization of fictional history and the defense of human rights.
There is no trademark on the names of the countries. Neither do names indicate descent. Americans are certainly no descendents of Amerigo Vespuci! The country and the continents were simply named after him. So we come to the second issue – the falsified history. By officializing the “Macedonist” version of history during Tito’s Yugoslavia and reaching a crescendo during the present government the Macedonian leaders are indeed forfeiting the right of the country to choose its mane. Everybody sympathized with Macedonia when Greece impose a trade embargo in the 90’s. Even Greece had to make a step back. But even the firmer sympathizers of Macedonia shook their heads whet the miserable airport of Skopje was named Alexander the Great! Yet all this is nothing in comparison with the readiness of the Macedonian government to violate the most basic human rights in defending the Macedonist ideoplgy. Recently a young woman was imprisoned for 3 months and fined 30 000 Euro, ostensibly for not assuring her former husband an access to their daughter. The real reason was because she declared herself Bulgarian.
pre 14 godina
Someone mentioned they don't believe FYROM is "irredentist".
Official no according to an agreement as part of an accord between Greece and themselves.
In practice however... they are showing every sign of claiming Macedonia Greece as their own. Their schoolbooks claim Macedonia is "Occupied", their current PM was photographed last year laying a wreath in front of a map of "United Macedonia" (that included macedonia Greece), they manipulate well meaning human rights groups to claim persecution. (which is very sneaky because they know 2.5 million Greek Macedonians exist and they are obligated under the terms of the accord to negotiate a compromise name)
Lastly....they now tell the world they are "ancient Macedonians" and are naming everything in sight after ancient Greek leader Alexander the Great of Macedonia(when FYROM aren't even live in ancient Macedonia... the live in what used to be called Paeonia")
Apparently some media outlets and politicians don't do their homework and have forgotten what their government used to tell them about their ever shifting ethnic identity stories.
'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' (FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka - January 22 1999)
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not decendents of the ancient Macedonians"
Kiro Gligorov (FYROM's first President)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' (FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov - 24 February 1999)
pre 14 godina
Apparently Mr. Eagelburger disagrees with another former US Secretary of State... that felt that name of nations also should take into consideration the safety of fellow allies and match historical realities.
"This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."
Mr. Eagelburger, in this regard, seems to be inline with the views of communist dictators Stalin and Tito... that ended up in 160,000 Greeks deaths during Greek civil war. It's unfortunate he seems to prioritize the security of a non-Nato country over a fellow longtime NATO partner. (that fought the former communists for freedom... that he is now supporting. Let no good deed go unpunished.
pre 14 godina
No surprize, coming from someone representing a country with zero history, zero heritage and zero culture (when compared to just about any country in Europe, especially Greece).
Mind your own business.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no idea of Balkan history. Greece has had more than 4,000 years of "growing up" & it has the right to defend it's proud history. Why don't these slavs call themselves Bulgarian & unite with Bulgaria?
pre 14 godina
Another ignorant American clueless about the rest of the world. His comparison is not correct. United States of Mexico? What if Mexico called itself United States of America? I don't think D.C. would like that too much? How does a guy like Lawrence Eagleburger become Secrtary of State in the 1st place? It just flat out boggles the mind that incompetent people sit and represent their countries people. This guy probably doesn't even know where "Macedonia" is located?
pre 14 godina
“That would be like Mexico telling the United States of America that it cannot call itself that because they are the United States of Mexico. That is crazy. It is pure stupidity.
What is pure stupidity is Eagleburger's lack of understanding of the problem.
Let me help you mister Eagleburger with an example that is more suitable for this situation.
If Mexico fell apart tomorrow and a province bordering the state of Texas decided to form a country called "Texas" would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country called "Texas" decided to name Sam Houston the father of their country appropriating Texan history as part of their new country would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country named "Texas" was aspiring to anex Texas(a US state) into their newly formed country would the US simply accept this situation?
If this newly formed country called "Texas" was distributing schoolbooks that distorted the history of the area and continuously promoted hate towards the US based on a complete fallacy would this be acceptable to the US?
pre 14 godina
What a condescendingly provocative comment: the Greeks were actually grown up long before Mr. E ancestors! But... he is getting paid to be a cheerleader... for a lost and non- noble cause. America is a continent. To say one is American is like saying one is European. Peruvians and Panamanians for instance are Americans. There are N. Americans, Central Americans and S. Americans. Mr. E's example of Mexico makes no sense at all and is purely stated in a way to arouse emotions and not a logical debate. A better analogy using Mexico would be this: After Mexico breaks apart in a hypothetical civil war (as Yugoslavia did) Baja California breaks away from Mexico and declares itself the Republic of California. Of course it's charter now includes "lost territories"
within the U.S. State of California. Now we have "Californians" on both side of a border arguing and fighting.
Of course (Baja) Californians have the right to call themselves what ever they want, in this case Californians. But do they have the right to claim all of California's history through the eons?
pre 14 godina
ok, let's call Albania "Thraki", Skopje "Macedonia", Bulgaria "Russia", Athens "Peloponesse" and Egypt "Syria". In fact let's call this planet "Mars".
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleberger, the Mexicans aren't claiming American history. Sam Houston was NOT Mexican. Nor do they teach their schoolchildren with maps that show Texas New Mexico and California as Mexico. In short Greece does NOT need to grow up however you do need to learn your history.
pre 14 godina
The former Secretary of State should open up a history book or read a letter sent recently by leading historians, archaeologists to President Obama on who owns the name.
US companies fight tooth and nail to defend their name, trademarks etc - why the double-standard from this retired "diplomat".
His statement is as logical as American support of Islamic jihadists in the Balkans....the same people trying to blow Americans up.
Macedonia is Greece
Kosovo is Serbia
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)
Well politicians like all people are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.In case of Kosovo the guy was right and for this deserved to be praised here is wrong and tells stupidity for what he must be booed.Life is not so complicated as some would like to think.
pre 14 godina
"Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)?
Right you are pss, and that's why I've conveniently remained silent on this post. To be honest, while I can understand to a certain degree the Greek frustration over Macedonians calling themselves Macedonians, I never really understood the fears surrounding the territorial expansion thing that supposedly threatened Thessaloniki and Halkidiki. I mean Greece is a member of NATO and Macedonia/FYROM is.....is.....well, no one really knows what it is, but I know it's certainly not irredentist. At the very least, it can barely hold on to Tetovo, let alone try to make a drunken dash over the Greek border before someone catches wind.
My guess on this is that Macedonian Slavs don't really know WHAT they are. Are they Greek? No, because they speak Slavic. Are they Serbian? No, because they speak a language closer to Bulgarian? Ok, are they Bulgarian? Well, not really since Tito inculcated a separate identity in them (I'm sticking to my "Bulgarians in denial" assumption).
So now there's this attempt at forging an identity that's more fly by night than historically factual. There's attempts appropriating Classical and Byzantine Greek along with Bulgarian history as their distinctive own, and very few people are buying it. Ok, so the neverending debate over whether Ss. Cyril and Methodios were Greek or "Macedonian" will continue. But I suspect the name thing has more to do with just the name. It's with the collective identity.
That's why I always say the most dangerous thing to teach in a university is neither chemistry nor biology, but history.
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
(Mark, 9 August 2009 18:28)
You seem to confuse the two issues.The case of Kosovo is
one of international law and the primacy of territorial integrity of the state.
With regard to Fyrom ,Greece hasn't got any land claim against it.What is at stake here is Fyrom's attempt to upsurp Hellenic history and its irredentist claims against Greece.
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
pre 14 godina
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
(Leonidas, 9 August 2009 16:57)
Well even such an anti-hellenistic person had to side with greece on this metter.This is just a good proof how right the greek are regarding this question.
pre 14 godina
Oh please. I suggest some country change it's name to America and see how the U.S. would react.
Sometime ago I saw on the internet, sadly removed from youtube, in which a Canadian comedian was telling Chicago residents Canada decided to rename its self Chicago. Most of them reacted, they can't do that or that's our word.
I'm pretty sure if a country named it's self America, the U.S.A. would pout sanctions and invade.
pre 14 godina
I wouldn't expect any different comments from someone who is employed as a lobbyist by the Turkish-Fyromian cultural associations which promotes the interests of these countries in US.Furthermore, his comments have a lot to do with US interests in the Balkans hence the creation of the biggest CIA sub-station in the newly erected US embassy in Skopje.
One would rembember -while in office-he was advocating military action against Iran and N Korea.During the last presidential election in US he described president Obama as a comedian and Charlatan and he changed hie views on Palin when Fox news put pressure on him.
Eagleburger makes a nonsensical comment that Greece interferes in Fyrom's internal affairs.How?
On the contrary,it is Fyrom that continues to meddle in all its neighbours affairs with outlandish claims,accussations and provocations.Currently Fyrom has disputes with everyone of its neighbours for one reason or another
Whether Greece will veto Fyrom's entry to the EU it has nothing to do with Eagleburger or the US.This will be a decision taken by the Greek goverment and parliament alone.Iam glad to say that there is a common position by all Greek political parties which is an invitation to join the EU will only occur when a solution to the name issue is found ..not earlier.
Therefore Eagleburger should mind his own business and keep out of EU affairs .
Needless to say that Eagleburger is also a cheer leader for Turkish entry in EU. Over Europe's dead body mr Eagleburger.
To Szemi
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
pre 14 godina
"Macedonian is Greek has and will always be."
Macedonian is not slav but that doesn't make it Greek.
Greece is becoming the only country with no friends in the region, not a good move with the Turks sniffing around.
pre 14 godina
Truly spoken like a true American hypocrite.
Would he think the same way if Mexico called itself the United States of America, changed its history books to show George Washington was their's and made claims on US territory?
Greece shouldn't meddle in FYROM internal problems, that's laughable. This comes from a diplomat in a country that does nothing but meddle in the internal dealings of sovereign nations all over the world, and speaking about this matter is now meddling in internal Greek matters.
I hate hypocrites like this guy, take a good look in the mirror sir and think before you make ridiculous statements.
pre 14 godina
Mr.Eagleburger,ignorance is bliss.In case you don't know,your state is called New Mexico not Mexico. People like you and Kissenger bring instability to the world.Divide and rule that is your policy.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger doesn't know squat. These comments are sponsored comments that only some lobbying can pull. Those who dont understand the issue at hand think its a name. When they dig deep past the FYROMian propaganda they will find irrendentism as well. FYROM is staking claim to Greek land and its starting by attacking culture and history first. Those fools, like Mr. Edin... just dont understand. So do me a favor former whatever you were and mind YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
pre 14 godina
Macedonian is Greek has and will always be.
pre 14 godina
Simple they have no moral right.Reminds me the other anti-greek Henry Kissinger who once said:The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform.Perhaps that poor guy did not the greek oxi mentality which is highly respected by all true europeans.So dear greek do not "grow up"to this inmoral demands of Eagleburgers,Hamburgers and Kissingers.
pre 14 godina
Simple they have no moral right.Reminds me the other anti-greek Henry Kissinger who once said:The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform.Perhaps that poor guy did not the greek oxi mentality which is highly respected by all true europeans.So dear greek do not "grow up"to this inmoral demands of Eagleburgers,Hamburgers and Kissingers.
pre 14 godina
Macedonian is Greek has and will always be.
pre 14 godina
Mr.Eagleburger,ignorance is bliss.In case you don't know,your state is called New Mexico not Mexico. People like you and Kissenger bring instability to the world.Divide and rule that is your policy.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger doesn't know squat. These comments are sponsored comments that only some lobbying can pull. Those who dont understand the issue at hand think its a name. When they dig deep past the FYROMian propaganda they will find irrendentism as well. FYROM is staking claim to Greek land and its starting by attacking culture and history first. Those fools, like Mr. Edin... just dont understand. So do me a favor former whatever you were and mind YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
pre 14 godina
I wouldn't expect any different comments from someone who is employed as a lobbyist by the Turkish-Fyromian cultural associations which promotes the interests of these countries in US.Furthermore, his comments have a lot to do with US interests in the Balkans hence the creation of the biggest CIA sub-station in the newly erected US embassy in Skopje.
One would rembember -while in office-he was advocating military action against Iran and N Korea.During the last presidential election in US he described president Obama as a comedian and Charlatan and he changed hie views on Palin when Fox news put pressure on him.
Eagleburger makes a nonsensical comment that Greece interferes in Fyrom's internal affairs.How?
On the contrary,it is Fyrom that continues to meddle in all its neighbours affairs with outlandish claims,accussations and provocations.Currently Fyrom has disputes with everyone of its neighbours for one reason or another
Whether Greece will veto Fyrom's entry to the EU it has nothing to do with Eagleburger or the US.This will be a decision taken by the Greek goverment and parliament alone.Iam glad to say that there is a common position by all Greek political parties which is an invitation to join the EU will only occur when a solution to the name issue is found ..not earlier.
Therefore Eagleburger should mind his own business and keep out of EU affairs .
Needless to say that Eagleburger is also a cheer leader for Turkish entry in EU. Over Europe's dead body mr Eagleburger.
To Szemi
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
pre 14 godina
Truly spoken like a true American hypocrite.
Would he think the same way if Mexico called itself the United States of America, changed its history books to show George Washington was their's and made claims on US territory?
Greece shouldn't meddle in FYROM internal problems, that's laughable. This comes from a diplomat in a country that does nothing but meddle in the internal dealings of sovereign nations all over the world, and speaking about this matter is now meddling in internal Greek matters.
I hate hypocrites like this guy, take a good look in the mirror sir and think before you make ridiculous statements.
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
(Mark, 9 August 2009 18:28)
You seem to confuse the two issues.The case of Kosovo is
one of international law and the primacy of territorial integrity of the state.
With regard to Fyrom ,Greece hasn't got any land claim against it.What is at stake here is Fyrom's attempt to upsurp Hellenic history and its irredentist claims against Greece.
pre 14 godina
Oh please. I suggest some country change it's name to America and see how the U.S. would react.
Sometime ago I saw on the internet, sadly removed from youtube, in which a Canadian comedian was telling Chicago residents Canada decided to rename its self Chicago. Most of them reacted, they can't do that or that's our word.
I'm pretty sure if a country named it's self America, the U.S.A. would pout sanctions and invade.
pre 14 godina
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
(Leonidas, 9 August 2009 16:57)
Well even such an anti-hellenistic person had to side with greece on this metter.This is just a good proof how right the greek are regarding this question.
pre 14 godina
"Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)?
Right you are pss, and that's why I've conveniently remained silent on this post. To be honest, while I can understand to a certain degree the Greek frustration over Macedonians calling themselves Macedonians, I never really understood the fears surrounding the territorial expansion thing that supposedly threatened Thessaloniki and Halkidiki. I mean Greece is a member of NATO and Macedonia/FYROM is.....is.....well, no one really knows what it is, but I know it's certainly not irredentist. At the very least, it can barely hold on to Tetovo, let alone try to make a drunken dash over the Greek border before someone catches wind.
My guess on this is that Macedonian Slavs don't really know WHAT they are. Are they Greek? No, because they speak Slavic. Are they Serbian? No, because they speak a language closer to Bulgarian? Ok, are they Bulgarian? Well, not really since Tito inculcated a separate identity in them (I'm sticking to my "Bulgarians in denial" assumption).
So now there's this attempt at forging an identity that's more fly by night than historically factual. There's attempts appropriating Classical and Byzantine Greek along with Bulgarian history as their distinctive own, and very few people are buying it. Ok, so the neverending debate over whether Ss. Cyril and Methodios were Greek or "Macedonian" will continue. But I suspect the name thing has more to do with just the name. It's with the collective identity.
That's why I always say the most dangerous thing to teach in a university is neither chemistry nor biology, but history.
pre 14 godina
"Macedonian is Greek has and will always be."
Macedonian is not slav but that doesn't make it Greek.
Greece is becoming the only country with no friends in the region, not a good move with the Turks sniffing around.
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
pre 14 godina
No surprize, coming from someone representing a country with zero history, zero heritage and zero culture (when compared to just about any country in Europe, especially Greece).
Mind your own business.
pre 14 godina
Another ignorant American clueless about the rest of the world. His comparison is not correct. United States of Mexico? What if Mexico called itself United States of America? I don't think D.C. would like that too much? How does a guy like Lawrence Eagleburger become Secrtary of State in the 1st place? It just flat out boggles the mind that incompetent people sit and represent their countries people. This guy probably doesn't even know where "Macedonia" is located?
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no idea of Balkan history. Greece has had more than 4,000 years of "growing up" & it has the right to defend it's proud history. Why don't these slavs call themselves Bulgarian & unite with Bulgaria?
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
pre 14 godina
Someone mentioned they don't believe FYROM is "irredentist".
Official no according to an agreement as part of an accord between Greece and themselves.
In practice however... they are showing every sign of claiming Macedonia Greece as their own. Their schoolbooks claim Macedonia is "Occupied", their current PM was photographed last year laying a wreath in front of a map of "United Macedonia" (that included macedonia Greece), they manipulate well meaning human rights groups to claim persecution. (which is very sneaky because they know 2.5 million Greek Macedonians exist and they are obligated under the terms of the accord to negotiate a compromise name)
Lastly....they now tell the world they are "ancient Macedonians" and are naming everything in sight after ancient Greek leader Alexander the Great of Macedonia(when FYROM aren't even live in ancient Macedonia... the live in what used to be called Paeonia")
Apparently some media outlets and politicians don't do their homework and have forgotten what their government used to tell them about their ever shifting ethnic identity stories.
'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' (FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka - January 22 1999)
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not decendents of the ancient Macedonians"
Kiro Gligorov (FYROM's first President)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' (FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov - 24 February 1999)
pre 14 godina
“That would be like Mexico telling the United States of America that it cannot call itself that because they are the United States of Mexico. That is crazy. It is pure stupidity.
What is pure stupidity is Eagleburger's lack of understanding of the problem.
Let me help you mister Eagleburger with an example that is more suitable for this situation.
If Mexico fell apart tomorrow and a province bordering the state of Texas decided to form a country called "Texas" would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country called "Texas" decided to name Sam Houston the father of their country appropriating Texan history as part of their new country would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country named "Texas" was aspiring to anex Texas(a US state) into their newly formed country would the US simply accept this situation?
If this newly formed country called "Texas" was distributing schoolbooks that distorted the history of the area and continuously promoted hate towards the US based on a complete fallacy would this be acceptable to the US?
pre 14 godina
Balkan I have to disagree with your your stating that Alexander was half Illyrian and half Greek.
That is a mistake many make as Olympia Alexander III's mother was a Mollosian Princess. The Mollosians were in fact a Greek kingdom similar in structure to the Macedonian kingdom. Olympia's family claimed to be direct descendants of Achilles while Philip's family claimed direct descendancy to Heracles. I'm sure I don't have to explain the Greekness of those heros, whether they were mythological or not.
The Illyrian idea is false and mostly floated by Albanians as the phenomena of encroaching on Greek histroy is nothing new.
Let's not forget that a former Turkish President wrote a book explaining how Turks were the original inhabitants of the Agean and Aristotle, Plato and company were Turkish.
The more I think of this issue makes me think there isn't another country on earth that has faced this type of historical theft ever. The Jews come close with some fabrications by Muslim's regarding Jerusalem's place, but Greeks seem to have everyone trying to claim their history. It's become so bad that some are now claiming the Macedonians and Alexander were Celts.
Somebody please correct me, but is there another country on earth that has had more claims on its history than Greece?
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)
Well politicians like all people are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.In case of Kosovo the guy was right and for this deserved to be praised here is wrong and tells stupidity for what he must be booed.Life is not so complicated as some would like to think.
pre 14 godina
The former Secretary of State should open up a history book or read a letter sent recently by leading historians, archaeologists to President Obama on who owns the name.
US companies fight tooth and nail to defend their name, trademarks etc - why the double-standard from this retired "diplomat".
His statement is as logical as American support of Islamic jihadists in the Balkans....the same people trying to blow Americans up.
Macedonia is Greece
Kosovo is Serbia
pre 14 godina
What a condescendingly provocative comment: the Greeks were actually grown up long before Mr. E ancestors! But... he is getting paid to be a cheerleader... for a lost and non- noble cause. America is a continent. To say one is American is like saying one is European. Peruvians and Panamanians for instance are Americans. There are N. Americans, Central Americans and S. Americans. Mr. E's example of Mexico makes no sense at all and is purely stated in a way to arouse emotions and not a logical debate. A better analogy using Mexico would be this: After Mexico breaks apart in a hypothetical civil war (as Yugoslavia did) Baja California breaks away from Mexico and declares itself the Republic of California. Of course it's charter now includes "lost territories"
within the U.S. State of California. Now we have "Californians" on both side of a border arguing and fighting.
Of course (Baja) Californians have the right to call themselves what ever they want, in this case Californians. But do they have the right to claim all of California's history through the eons?
pre 14 godina
Does Luxembourg complain about Belgium's province of Luxembourg? Does Azerbaijan complain about the Iranian province of Azerbaijan? Not as far as I'm aware.
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleberger, the Mexicans aren't claiming American history. Sam Houston was NOT Mexican. Nor do they teach their schoolchildren with maps that show Texas New Mexico and California as Mexico. In short Greece does NOT need to grow up however you do need to learn your history.
pre 14 godina
ok, let's call Albania "Thraki", Skopje "Macedonia", Bulgaria "Russia", Athens "Peloponesse" and Egypt "Syria". In fact let's call this planet "Mars".
pre 14 godina
Dear All,
I am not against the history, to know history is really good, but I am against of any attempt to make troubles and conflicts because of history... Even the Alexander the Great, as per opinions of lot of historians was half hellenic and half illyrian, so mother illyrian (today albanian) and father hellenic (today greece), even if it was not like this nothing changes for us, why? because whoever Alexander was, he was much more civilized and open minded than leaders of today, he joined the culters, west with east, he did great things thats why he was GREAT...
Botom line: Please call on greece and macedonian leadership to meet and define the issue, solve the problem and make processes go forward and open roads to people of today to have progress and prossperity.
If it was alive Alexander he could have done that!
pre 14 godina
The problem is that Eagleburger is comparing a country with a few hundred years of history, where it annexed the culture and history, America...to a region with thousands of years of history! Eagleburger is good for soundbites, not for long term.
pre 14 godina
There are thee different issues. The name of the country and its people, the officialization of fictional history and the defense of human rights.
There is no trademark on the names of the countries. Neither do names indicate descent. Americans are certainly no descendents of Amerigo Vespuci! The country and the continents were simply named after him. So we come to the second issue – the falsified history. By officializing the “Macedonist” version of history during Tito’s Yugoslavia and reaching a crescendo during the present government the Macedonian leaders are indeed forfeiting the right of the country to choose its mane. Everybody sympathized with Macedonia when Greece impose a trade embargo in the 90’s. Even Greece had to make a step back. But even the firmer sympathizers of Macedonia shook their heads whet the miserable airport of Skopje was named Alexander the Great! Yet all this is nothing in comparison with the readiness of the Macedonian government to violate the most basic human rights in defending the Macedonist ideoplgy. Recently a young woman was imprisoned for 3 months and fined 30 000 Euro, ostensibly for not assuring her former husband an access to their daughter. The real reason was because she declared herself Bulgarian.
pre 14 godina
Azerbaijan province and country, Luxemburg Belgium and country.
That's pretty good. But having the same name is exactly where the similarities end here.
Luxemburg province became that after it was divided from Luxemburg the country when Belgium had its revolution in the 19th century. Essentially the people that live in the region were all country men, were they not?
As for Azebiajan these people are directly related as well are they not? They speak the same Turkic language, essentially share the same culture and are Shia Muslim's as well. There are more to tie these two examples together then there are to seperate them.
In the example of the FYROM there is no common language, no common history and no common geneology.
Your attempt here to justify the FYROM position therefore falls way short of proving any point.
pre 14 godina
Apparently Mr. Eagelburger disagrees with another former US Secretary of State... that felt that name of nations also should take into consideration the safety of fellow allies and match historical realities.
"This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."
Mr. Eagelburger, in this regard, seems to be inline with the views of communist dictators Stalin and Tito... that ended up in 160,000 Greeks deaths during Greek civil war. It's unfortunate he seems to prioritize the security of a non-Nato country over a fellow longtime NATO partner. (that fought the former communists for freedom... that he is now supporting. Let no good deed go unpunished.
pre 14 godina
Maybe needless to day but Greece has grown up. More precisely, it has grown up over thousands of years, actually. Erm... how long has America been around?
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
(Radoslav, 9 August 2009 20:10)
Albanians came from Azerbaijan.But somehow we managed to get the prime estate on the Mediteranean Sea while the Serbs opted for being land locked.Even if there was some truth on the serbian propaganda that Albanians stole Kosovo,it is like the Thief yelling catch the thief.
pre 14 godina
I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually?
If the Greeks are so sure about there history then why worry. Its like being in denial about your sexuality, if your straight then no one can tell you otherwise, no need to worry, unless your not or simply confused.
If its that painful then Greece should changes its name to Macedonia.
But we all the why the Greek government continues to play the nationalistic card, if the Greek government really wanted to they could have solved the name dispute 18 years ago.
It doesnt bother FYROMANIANS that Greeks claim Macedonia, each to there own..
pre 14 godina
The name Makedonia belongs to Greece. FYROM is what your name is and should be. You can blame fromer Yugoslavia President Tito for the name decision.
pre 14 godina
to "Ballkan":
even if Alexander the Great was half illyrian, ...you´re simply off the way with your idea that the illyrians are the ancestors of todays Albanians...
that´s purely wishful thinking, an ideology invented to give the Albanians some kind of good feeling, of "being someone", but if you put all the known historical facts together - there is no single arifact, no single archeological site, simply nothing [!) that would indicate this illyrian-albanian connection.
so, better do yourself a favour and "grow up"!
todays Albanians have taken language-segments from the illyrians, since they had no consolidated national unity in the meaning of modern nations, it was just some part of a language of a vanished ethnicity that was assimilated by all the modern balkan-nations, such as Serbs, Croats, Greeks and of course also Albanians.
the only reason why you took over illyrian language segments and the others did not, is that you had no strong culture to cling to when the illyrians influenced you.
that´s what makes you so desperately believing in the illyrian myth.
so, Eagleburger should actually tell the Albanians to grow up....
pre 14 godina
I find it very interesting how all these socalled "grown up and educated greeks" have a hard time learning and understanding recent history (less than 100 years) let alone ancient history. I would ask any of them to explain why greece renamed "Northern greece" to "Macedonia" in 1988? The other is why it was illegal and Forbidden to make any reference to anything Macedonian prior to 1988?
Surely with all their growing up and education of 4000 yrs they would all be able to answer these simple questions. It is interesting how all of a sudden greece fell in love with someone elses name and history(Macedonia's) and claim it as their own.
I challenge any greek to try to study greek archives and find the answer to this if they don't know it. You will find that your own greek gov't will DENY you access to that information.
After your failed attempt at this information, I would suggest that you and anyone interested in finding the truth read the following books. "Macedonia and the Macedonians" is the first which is written by Andrew Rossos(in case you have trouble recognizing it, that is a greek name). The second is "Macedonia and Greece" written by John Shea. Both of these authors attempted to bring the greek side of this argument out but were swiftly denied access to archives by the greek gov't. What are the greeks hiding?
Some of the things that greece is hiding is the harassment, torture and even murder that took place for just any reference to anything Macedonian. That is untill 1988 when suddenly they love Macedonia. Also, the expelling of nearly 28,000 children between the ages of 2 and 14 in 1948 alone.
These are only a few of the things that are explained in these books and all interested should read them if they want to learn the truth. If you are greek however, you will probably deny all this simply because that is what you have been taught in your greek schools.
It seems that many greeks are ignorant of the truth and refuse to learn the truth. One cannot blame another for being ignorant but if you deny the truth when it is in your face.
Now for a little education in history. Macedonia was a country which was partitioned in 1913 and greece annexed the southern portion of Macedonia the same way it annexed Thassally in 1881. Serbia and Bulgaria got the other parts. For 75 years (1913-1988) greece wanted nothing to do with anything Macedonian( in fact even mentioning the name Macedonia was forbidden and illegal). Then in 1988, "Northern greece" was renamed to "Macedonia".
I welcome any greek to explain these facts to those interested.
Instead of spreading false greek propaganda, try dealing with the truth.
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
pre 14 godina
"I think that it is wrong for Greece to get involved in Macedonia’s internal affairs"
The Americans would never do anything like that HAHA.
pre 14 godina
To Aleksandar of Makedonia,
Honestly, do you believe the things you say?, or are you cut & pasting all the arguments fabricated by the nationalist blogs and websites you tend to get your info from?
Who is most likely to suffer from false information I ask you?
Greece?: Greek citizens can leave their borders without a visa requirement. Something that FYRoMians can not do.
FYRoM has a 33% illiteracy rate, Greece has 3%.
FYRoMian Television airs
Government sponsored spots,
with God claiming that FYRoMians are the white race,
true masters of earth, and all the rest are Negroids and
mongols..
In Greece such a thing is perceived as mere comedy.
Greece does not rename streets and stadiums after other nations heroes. FYRoM's current government does.
Greece is living for the future. FYRoM is stuck in the past.
FYRoM forbids by law!, any scientific research, regarding its ethnicity and cultural past.
Greece does not.
How sad it makes me to see the results of 17 years of state sponsored propaganda, has done to the children of this newly born state..
Instead of embracing UNIVERSALY accepted truths,
they strive to rewrite history that is whritten in more than 3000 ancient Macedonian inscriptions.
All in Greek.
Not a single ancient Macedonian inscription is written in any other language but Greek.
350, and counting, university scholars around the world sign a petition that says that ancient Macedonia was Greek.
Only a handful, say the opposite, and guess what...
they are all from FYRoM or its diaspora...
Who is in the right.. I wonder...
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger, how about you mind your own business and also how about your best friends from skojpe call there country U.S.A., they are not american right? but who cares, they are allowed to name there country whatever they want? is that right Eagleburger? MAKEDONIA IS ONLY GREEK AND WILL ALWAYS BE GREEK....
pre 14 godina
Show me where it was illegal to refer to Macedonia, I've heard this ridiculous claim before and it only comes from Skopjian's.
Northern Greece is made up of several provinces Epirus, Thrace and Macedonia.
What you and your country men are stating here is a complete fabrication and its not surprising as you and your country men are a fabricated fake country.
Macedonia has been referred to as Macedonia from around 600 BC.
Tell us another lie Alexander of Skopje, maybe you can prove that it was illegal to refer to Northern Greece as Macedonia?
pre 14 godina
NO ONE IS RELATED TO THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS! Their tribes no longer exist, nor do the Paionian, Thracian or Illyrian tribes so stop trying to claim them everybody! This name dispute goes much deeper than a name or ancient history.
In the Republic of Macedonia, the claim to Alexander and the Ancient Macedonian tribes is an attempt by the west to further dissipate Yugoslavia by making Macedonians think they have nothing in common with Serbs and other Slavs (which is not working to well by the way)
In Greece, the claiming of ancient Macedonia is an attempt for Greece to secure without a shadow of a doubt it's own province of Macedonia within its borders because it not only has the port of Thessaloniki but because it has fertile land that without, Greece would just be rocks and mountains and Greek food would just be fish and olives. (But honestly, who's going to take Greek land?)
Everybody needs to look at more recent history and the more recent history of Macedonia is that from Thessaloniki to Skopje it was one region with various ethnicities and nationalities living side by side (like a Switzerland of the Balkans) and all of them considered themselves Macedonians despite ethnic roots until all the outside powers during the Balkan Wars cut it up into pieces and created the problems that exist in the region today. So who has the right to say who is and who is not Macedonian when many different peoples throughout history have called themselves Macedonians? Why should only the Greeks or only the Slavic Macedonians be able to call themselves Macedonia when both have for centuries?
If you look at the Ilinden uprising, most of the revolutionaries didn't care if you called yourself a Bulgar, a Serb or a Greek or whatever, just that everybody was Macedonian and had to fight together against the Turks. It's a shame that all sides look at Alexander instead of the heroes who fought to free Macedonia from Ottoman oppression. When any of these revolutionaries laid claim to Alexander it was as more of a battle call than a recognition of national identity, unlike today.
pre 14 godina
Dos Eagleburger have any financial interests in the Balkans?
We all know the answer to that question.
Playing devil's advocate here, but let's say I gant Greece's position is stupid. Is there anything more idiotic than Eagleburger's analogy about the United States of Mexico? United is not a proper name. It's an adjective. A state is not a proper name either. Americans don't go around calling themselves United Statians. Ludicrous.
pre 14 godina
Mr Eagleburger is not stupid not toundertsand the real issues of the situation of the FYROM. He was one of the architects of the nationalistic policy of this US protectorate. Greece has the right to protect its sovereingty from any attack under any guise, name or other wise and from whom ever it comes foe or nominal friend.
pre 14 godina
The one thing I will agree with is Macedonia has been here since 600 B.C.
If you would take your head out of the greek propaganda box and look outside of the greek misinformation, you too could learn the truth. Macedonia has NEVER been greece. If you have ever seen a map of Roman history, you would know that Macedonia and greece have always been two different lands. You can look at any map you like of any era and you and anyone interested will see that Macedonia and greece have always been addressed as two separate lands.
The fact that Macedonia and any reference to it prior to 1988 was illegal and forbidden by the greek gov't is true and you not knowing about it shows your lack of historical knowledge(or ignorance, you pick) about Macedonia or greece for that matter.
If greece was Macedonia, as many greeks claim, then why is it called greece? I hope you, with your wealth of knowledge(or lack of it), can explain that.
You are abviously ignorant about the mass ethnic cleansing of Macedonians greece committed in the early 1900's. Those Macedonians that remained were forbidden to mention anything Macedonian let alone speak the Macedonian language. If you want the truth, you have to look to sources outside of greece where the greek propaganda machine is hard at work trying to cover up the truth.
I suppose non of the lack of knowledge is your fault since that is what you have been taught, however, if you don't want to learn the truth by comparing it with outside sources, it is your fault for believing false information.
Why too did greece change the name of "Northern greece" in 1988? Is that something you don't know either?
I suggest you and all greeks read at least one of the books I mention above and expand your mind on this issue(maybe the one with the author with the greek name).
Did you know too, that greece is ethnically 100% ethnically pure? Just by claiming that the greeks are making fools of themselves. I hope you will wake up and realize that these are foolish claims by the greek gov't and that the FALSE propaganda greece is trying to spread about Macedonia is no longer believed anymore because the truth is out.
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia how sad that you have to cling to fabricated lies and examples of Rome to try and justify your position.
The Roman territory they referred to as Macedonia was much larger than the original Greek Macedonia. I believe the Roman administration expanded the name to include areas of Paonneia which is where you are from. Never during the reign of the Hellenistic Macedonian kingdoms did they call the same territory by that name.
Constantly drumming the same diatribe about Macedonia was always known as Macedonia and not Greece will never prove your position.
That is true in ancient times Macedonia was always referred to as Macedonia, just as Thesssaly was always referred to as Thessaly, Sparta was Sparta, Athens was Athens, and the examples go on and on.
Having a distinct name never ceased any of these people from being able to claim a common kinship and race. Why is it so difficult to understand that the Greek world stretched to many parts of the Balkans as well as the Mediterranean and Anatolia? Can you not understand what the Greek world meant?
There were Hellenic leagues that all of these states and kingdoms belonged together. Philip II was a member of a Pan Hellenic league long before he became the conquerer of this same Greek world.
What you keep telling us are lies and the fact that you simply cannot comprehend written language. The history of the Greek people is known by all who care to educate themselves.
Finally the southern part of the Greek peninsula was always known as Hellas and in the North there were the Molossian and Macedonian kingdoms. This referred to the geography but since the inception of the Macedonian kingdom in the time around 600 BC it was always known as a Greek kingdom which at that time was a brand new kingdom. This hardly can be enough to prove any kind of point beyond your ignorance of history.
pre 14 godina
The comparison with Mexico and America is ridiculous and shows that he is either he has no idea on the actual issues at the heart of the problem, or the more likely explanation that he is on some lobby groups payroll, most likely a group sponsored by Sorros or connected to him in some way.
If the American state of Texas gained independence, and then changed it's name to Republic of Mexico and started claiming Ancient Mexican history, then that would be a similar and fair comparison.
But he has used the type of government to make a comparisson.
pre 14 godina
I never wrote that Albanians came from Azerbaijan.I said, that is the Serbian official. You people shouldn't be afraid of the words if you think you have the right on your side. Stop censuring posts and turning them in pro serbian posts.
pre 14 godina
Don't try and bite the hand that feeds you people.... Macedonia is Greece.
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleburger needs to go back to grammar school to learn history in the Balkans,before commenting on this matter. Or is it that he has some interest in Skopia.
pre 14 godina
To: Jovan,
I see that you absolutely disagree with Illyrian origine of albanian, because has been said to you many times and also pushed not to accept it. BTW I will give you some very simple example, from romans Illyrains has been called ILIRI and that is the right name, today albanians use the same word to ILIRI to say "BE FREE" or "FREE MAN" and in fact the Illyrian Kingdom was called by the others on that time "the land of free people" so this is one undisputable fact.
Other fact, lot of names of illyrian people has been passed through ages among albanians, why?
Other fact, read the book "Illyricum Sacrum" that speaks about christianity of albanians and then tell to the world the albanians - illyrians connections!
I am not denying that slav origin is from Carpats and they arrived to ballcan peninsula in VII century, this the fact and everybody knows...
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no clue what he is talking about nor is his example about Mexico relevant.Clearly FYROM is right next to Greece and to allow it to use the name Macedonia would cause confusion as there is already a province in Greece by the name of Macedonia.
pre 14 godina
To both Boris and Niv, it is very clear that you both have limited knowledge of all the documented facts that I have written. It is also clear that you only believe the greek propaganda that has been spread by the greek gov't.(which category would that be ignorant, foolish or falsly educated?)
When there are two sides to a disagreement, any rational person will look to more that one source of information to try and find the true answer. Both of you clearly display the opposite. You are only repeating the same lies that the greek propaganda machine has taught you. It is also very clear that you refuse to even address any of the facts that the greek gov't took part in less than one hundred years ago.
There are people alive today that suffered through the ethnic cleansing, torture and oppression the greek gov't committed.
Your own greek gov't denies that any of this took place the same way you do(annexation in 1913, along with an attempt to eliminate any existence of Macedonians soon after that with a population exchange).
All greeks have to understand that just because they and only they deny a fact does not mean it is not true. A clear example of this is the well known fact that greece claims to be 100% ethnically pure. Any rational person with a limited education knows THAT is a foolish claim, however the greeks pride themselves at that.
The greeks also have to realize that they are not the only ones which know history. There are others outside of greece that also know historical facts. These are facts which could not be influenced by greek politicians.
All facts which I have referred to are documented in many countries(France, Italy, Russia, Austria, England, Turkey just to name a few). I have personally studied the documents in France and Italy simply because I had the desire to learn the truth which is something you both should try and do instead of refusing to learn something that may not agree with what you have been taught in the greek education system filled with false propaganda.
To also clear things up, Tito was an ally of the greeks and Macedonia was not a creation of his mind. Macedonia was a republic of the Yugoslav federation. Macedonia had the same rights that all the other republics had in the federation. Tito just did not deny its existence like greece does to this day. In fact Milosevic and greece had a secret aggreement to try and repartition Macedonia during the collapse of Yugoslavia. They just failed because the rest of the world stepped up and told greece to mind her own bussiness.
Both of you should try to learn the truth instead of trying to spread false greek propaganda. Both of you need to realize that the world has educated people outside of greece and they are fully capable of learning the truth. Greece just likes to take the truth and put a greek twist on it with the hope that noone will compare the lies with facts from outside of greece. This is the same thing you are both doing but I am happy to say you and the greek gov't are failing. Expand your mind and read the facts outside of greece, not just the greek twisted lies.
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia what are you talking about when you say we should read history books that aren't part of Greek propaganda?
I have read many, many history books and they are written and taught in higher places of learning throughout the civilized world.
What history books do you read beside the books and articles written by your people?
Every debate with a Skopjian seems to be a trip into upside down world as the same things are always parroted over and over.
History is on our side, not what we've written but what has been passed down by so many others. If you were to ask people who have no stake in this matter, ie Indians, Persian, Egyptians and the like you would find that if you asked was Alexander the Great Greek, they'd look at you as if your insane and say "Of course he was".
Find a real argument when re-writing history, it definitely is not on your side.
pre 14 godina
Niv, it is clear that you are unaware that historical facts exist outside of greece. The history I read it the TRUE history which exists in France, Russia, England, Turkey, Austria, and many others(including your own greece). Greece is the only one that does not allow access to it simply because they want to cover up and twist the truth.
It is also clear that you are unaware that these same countries played a very large role in the partition of Macedonia in 1913. The same partition which allowed your greece to annex a large part of the country of Macedonia. It is this very event that your greek gov't denies the same way they deny the existence of minorities let alone Macedonians. If you are under the assumption that knowone knows the truth, you are mistaken.
If you and many other greek nationalists would open up your minds and take that greek propaganda box off your heads, you would know all of this instead of displaying your ignorance.
Since you asked, that is the history I read, the TRUTH. I have also read the greek LIES and am wise enough to determine that all of it is exactly that, LIES AND FALSE PROPAGANDA. I am studying it so I can separate the TRUTH from the LIES and so far the greeks story falls in the LIES category.
I would also enlighted you on one very important fact you have been misinformed on. Aleksandar the Great and his father Phillip WERE NOT greek. They were in fact both MACEDONIAN. The fact that you have been misinformed on this clearly displays your lack of education on this subject. Another important fact is that MACEDONIA WAS NEVER greek. If it was, we would not be talking about MACEDONIA AND greece, the subject would be only greece.
THAT IS THE HISTORY I READ!
The facts are out there, you just have to be willing to study and embrace the truth and not the lies. Any map and any book in any time of history shows that MACEDONIA and greece were two SEPARATE lands.
That is any book or map outside of greece. The greeks are stuck on 100% ethnically pure with no minorities. (I am trying not to laugh when I hear this). And the greeks consider themselves educated.
pre 14 godina
I'm sorry claiming Alexander of Macedon to be Greek is a construct of the west to break up Yugoslavia is absurd to say the least.
How western is India, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq and Egypt? Why is it no one in these countries are aware of the claims of Skopje? Why is it these people always refer to the Greeks when speaking about Alexander and his armies? Why is it that a so called foreigner decided to wipe the identity of his own people off of the face of the earth to promote another ethnicity? Simply because what you are trying to say about it is a made up lie and everyone knows what the identity of this man and his people were.
Macedonia has over the centuries been inhabited by Greeks, and Serbs, Bulgarians and Turks, there's no denying that. But what you and your brethren are repeatedly trying to do is steal away an area and identity that isn't yours. Macedonia has been inhabited by Greek speaking people for almost three thousand years now and it goes back to the time that you are trying to claim is irrelivant.
You can read anything you want but to continuously spew that the history we are debating is a Greek construct is not worth debating anymore, your people are all alone on that one. Believe what you want to believe but the history is well documented and totally against you.
Good luck, maybe you guys can try and steal Italian history now. The Roman Province of Macedonia did actually contain your territory, maybe you can erect a few statues of Julius Ceasar instead and rename your Highway the Nero 1.
It's not too late you're just getting started on your made up ethnicity maybe the Italians will be more willing to give up their history.
pre 14 godina
Well Niv, I agree on one thing with you, YOU SHOULD BE SORRY. Sorry for the fact that you lack the knowledge of history which pertains to Macedonia. It is clear that you have no knowledge of what happened in Macedonia less than one hundred years ago(partition 1913) yet you make a claim with reference to 3000 years ago.
Macedonia doesn't need to take anyones identity because she has HER OWN history and identity. It is ONLY the greeks that are so ignorant of history that refuse to admit that fact. As to what I and many other knowledgable people read. Well, again I will let you and all of your nationalist friends know that everything I have read is the TRUE HISTORY OF MACEDONIA and not the false propaganda that greece tries to spread. Someday you and your friends will come out of that dark greek cloud of false information and realize the truth.
Aleksandar and his father were both MACEDONIAN and NOT greek, a well known fact that you are obviously unaware of.
MACEDONIA was NEVER GREEK and historical documents prove that fact.
pre 12 godina
very brief.please note everithing about macedonia.before 1940 FYROM area
was named VARDATSIKA.in 1942-3 the communist countries,soviet union,yugoslavia etc. desided to have access to agean sea and to do that
they called vardatsica macedonia with a plan to take over part of greece,
macedonia all the way to olymbus mnt. also thessaloniki[intended to be
their capital] halkidiki etc greeks won with help of USA genral VAN FLEET
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
(George, 11 August 2009 02:42)
Good idea.I am sure this guy Eagelberger would be the first to make a fuss about it
pre 14 godina
Ballkan: Älexander the Great was half Ilyrian half helen".
No. Alexander the Great was 100% Ilyrian, so Albanian. otherwise, Greeks can do whatever with some prts of Macedonia, but not with those ones in which Albanian population is Albanian (including Ohrid, Struga and Eastern Skopje).
pre 14 godina
"I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually? "
posted by Bulgar
Well if everyone agrees on the FYROM position that is in effect the re-writing of history isn't? Once you accept that FYROM's position do you not expose yourself to irridentist activities in the future?
It's faulty logic to think you can accept someone's fabrication of their own history and then expect things to return to normal, that has nothing to do with being insecure of who you are, that has everything to do with inoculating future generations from having to deal with this.
As for Luli "Alexander was 100% Illyrian". Maybe the single dumbest post on this site. Please provide a source for this amazing find, simply your statement is false.
I look forward to reading your source. On the other hand I can provide an endless amount of sources showing the Greekness of Alexander, Philip and the Macedonians.
pre 14 godina
To: All who deny illyrian - albanian connections,
Dear fellows, just search on google about albanian language and you will see how it was classified from foreign languistics (not albanians did the study), so albanian language belongs to indoeuropian family and is considered as the most ancient language together with armenian language and has nothing to do with turk language (somebody was saying that albanians comes to ballcan peninsula with turks hahahaha, shame who does not know that Gjergj Kastriota fought against turks and protected europe from turk invasion for three decades, his statue you can find in many big cities of europe). Also you can not find any other nation language that has anything in common with illyrian, only albanians have, why? simply because albanians are direct descendandts of illyrians... also all genetic analysis of bones that has been found in ancient tombs in Albania and in other parts of balcan has the same genetic chain as of albanians of today. Dear there are no doubs about albanian - illyrian connections, but lets do not go back to history, lets see the future and solve the problems of today, lets give peace to people of today whomever they are, like this we will make prosperity for humanity!
Peace to All!!!
pre 14 godina
Illyrian language tied to Albanian, maybe, maybe not, who really cares here right now?
George Kastriotis was a great hero who fought defending the Balkans against the Turks, that is undeniable. What also is undeniable is that the Albanian people are traitors to their own hero as they converted their culture to Islam for an easier ride.
What is not debatable here is the Illyrian claims of the nationality and geneology of the Macedonian people and Alexander the Great's family, but this connection is still trying to be claimed.
Give it up, you have no tie whatsoever to the Macedonian people of Greece.
pre 14 godina
"Macedonian is Greek has and will always be."
Macedonian is not slav but that doesn't make it Greek.
Greece is becoming the only country with no friends in the region, not a good move with the Turks sniffing around.
pre 14 godina
Simple they have no moral right.Reminds me the other anti-greek Henry Kissinger who once said:The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform.Perhaps that poor guy did not the greek oxi mentality which is highly respected by all true europeans.So dear greek do not "grow up"to this inmoral demands of Eagleburgers,Hamburgers and Kissingers.
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
pre 14 godina
Macedonian is Greek has and will always be.
pre 14 godina
Mr.Eagleburger,ignorance is bliss.In case you don't know,your state is called New Mexico not Mexico. People like you and Kissenger bring instability to the world.Divide and rule that is your policy.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger doesn't know squat. These comments are sponsored comments that only some lobbying can pull. Those who dont understand the issue at hand think its a name. When they dig deep past the FYROMian propaganda they will find irrendentism as well. FYROM is staking claim to Greek land and its starting by attacking culture and history first. Those fools, like Mr. Edin... just dont understand. So do me a favor former whatever you were and mind YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
pre 14 godina
Oh please. I suggest some country change it's name to America and see how the U.S. would react.
Sometime ago I saw on the internet, sadly removed from youtube, in which a Canadian comedian was telling Chicago residents Canada decided to rename its self Chicago. Most of them reacted, they can't do that or that's our word.
I'm pretty sure if a country named it's self America, the U.S.A. would pout sanctions and invade.
pre 14 godina
Truly spoken like a true American hypocrite.
Would he think the same way if Mexico called itself the United States of America, changed its history books to show George Washington was their's and made claims on US territory?
Greece shouldn't meddle in FYROM internal problems, that's laughable. This comes from a diplomat in a country that does nothing but meddle in the internal dealings of sovereign nations all over the world, and speaking about this matter is now meddling in internal Greek matters.
I hate hypocrites like this guy, take a good look in the mirror sir and think before you make ridiculous statements.
pre 14 godina
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
(Leonidas, 9 August 2009 16:57)
Well even such an anti-hellenistic person had to side with greece on this metter.This is just a good proof how right the greek are regarding this question.
pre 14 godina
I wouldn't expect any different comments from someone who is employed as a lobbyist by the Turkish-Fyromian cultural associations which promotes the interests of these countries in US.Furthermore, his comments have a lot to do with US interests in the Balkans hence the creation of the biggest CIA sub-station in the newly erected US embassy in Skopje.
One would rembember -while in office-he was advocating military action against Iran and N Korea.During the last presidential election in US he described president Obama as a comedian and Charlatan and he changed hie views on Palin when Fox news put pressure on him.
Eagleburger makes a nonsensical comment that Greece interferes in Fyrom's internal affairs.How?
On the contrary,it is Fyrom that continues to meddle in all its neighbours affairs with outlandish claims,accussations and provocations.Currently Fyrom has disputes with everyone of its neighbours for one reason or another
Whether Greece will veto Fyrom's entry to the EU it has nothing to do with Eagleburger or the US.This will be a decision taken by the Greek goverment and parliament alone.Iam glad to say that there is a common position by all Greek political parties which is an invitation to join the EU will only occur when a solution to the name issue is found ..not earlier.
Therefore Eagleburger should mind his own business and keep out of EU affairs .
Needless to say that Eagleburger is also a cheer leader for Turkish entry in EU. Over Europe's dead body mr Eagleburger.
To Szemi
When Kissinger was asked to comment on the name issue between Greece and Fyrom he replied " Anybody who knows history will side with the Greeks.And i know history".
pre 14 godina
The former Secretary of State should open up a history book or read a letter sent recently by leading historians, archaeologists to President Obama on who owns the name.
US companies fight tooth and nail to defend their name, trademarks etc - why the double-standard from this retired "diplomat".
His statement is as logical as American support of Islamic jihadists in the Balkans....the same people trying to blow Americans up.
Macedonia is Greece
Kosovo is Serbia
pre 14 godina
So the Greeks can see hypocrisy on the words of this American guy but not in their own actions.Slavo Macedonians and Serbs are both invaders in the balkans.You don't like when Slavo macedonians claim something greek but support the serbs when they claim Kosovo. Both of them didn't bring any land with them when they showed up in the balkans.
(Mark, 9 August 2009 18:28)
You seem to confuse the two issues.The case of Kosovo is
one of international law and the primacy of territorial integrity of the state.
With regard to Fyrom ,Greece hasn't got any land claim against it.What is at stake here is Fyrom's attempt to upsurp Hellenic history and its irredentist claims against Greece.
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
pre 14 godina
No surprize, coming from someone representing a country with zero history, zero heritage and zero culture (when compared to just about any country in Europe, especially Greece).
Mind your own business.
pre 14 godina
Mark - neither did the Albanians when they came into the Balkans with the Turks - Don't waste your time giving e bull about Albanians being descended from illyrians. We all know it's a load of rubbish, akin to scientology.
(Radoslav, 9 August 2009 20:10)
Albanians came from Azerbaijan.But somehow we managed to get the prime estate on the Mediteranean Sea while the Serbs opted for being land locked.Even if there was some truth on the serbian propaganda that Albanians stole Kosovo,it is like the Thief yelling catch the thief.
pre 14 godina
ok, let's call Albania "Thraki", Skopje "Macedonia", Bulgaria "Russia", Athens "Peloponesse" and Egypt "Syria". In fact let's call this planet "Mars".
pre 14 godina
Dear All,
I am not against the history, to know history is really good, but I am against of any attempt to make troubles and conflicts because of history... Even the Alexander the Great, as per opinions of lot of historians was half hellenic and half illyrian, so mother illyrian (today albanian) and father hellenic (today greece), even if it was not like this nothing changes for us, why? because whoever Alexander was, he was much more civilized and open minded than leaders of today, he joined the culters, west with east, he did great things thats why he was GREAT...
Botom line: Please call on greece and macedonian leadership to meet and define the issue, solve the problem and make processes go forward and open roads to people of today to have progress and prossperity.
If it was alive Alexander he could have done that!
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no idea of Balkan history. Greece has had more than 4,000 years of "growing up" & it has the right to defend it's proud history. Why don't these slavs call themselves Bulgarian & unite with Bulgaria?
pre 14 godina
Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)
Well politicians like all people are sometimes right and sometimes wrong.In case of Kosovo the guy was right and for this deserved to be praised here is wrong and tells stupidity for what he must be booed.Life is not so complicated as some would like to think.
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleberger, the Mexicans aren't claiming American history. Sam Houston was NOT Mexican. Nor do they teach their schoolchildren with maps that show Texas New Mexico and California as Mexico. In short Greece does NOT need to grow up however you do need to learn your history.
pre 14 godina
Another ignorant American clueless about the rest of the world. His comparison is not correct. United States of Mexico? What if Mexico called itself United States of America? I don't think D.C. would like that too much? How does a guy like Lawrence Eagleburger become Secrtary of State in the 1st place? It just flat out boggles the mind that incompetent people sit and represent their countries people. This guy probably doesn't even know where "Macedonia" is located?
pre 14 godina
Does Luxembourg complain about Belgium's province of Luxembourg? Does Azerbaijan complain about the Iranian province of Azerbaijan? Not as far as I'm aware.
pre 14 godina
I find it very interesting how all these socalled "grown up and educated greeks" have a hard time learning and understanding recent history (less than 100 years) let alone ancient history. I would ask any of them to explain why greece renamed "Northern greece" to "Macedonia" in 1988? The other is why it was illegal and Forbidden to make any reference to anything Macedonian prior to 1988?
Surely with all their growing up and education of 4000 yrs they would all be able to answer these simple questions. It is interesting how all of a sudden greece fell in love with someone elses name and history(Macedonia's) and claim it as their own.
I challenge any greek to try to study greek archives and find the answer to this if they don't know it. You will find that your own greek gov't will DENY you access to that information.
After your failed attempt at this information, I would suggest that you and anyone interested in finding the truth read the following books. "Macedonia and the Macedonians" is the first which is written by Andrew Rossos(in case you have trouble recognizing it, that is a greek name). The second is "Macedonia and Greece" written by John Shea. Both of these authors attempted to bring the greek side of this argument out but were swiftly denied access to archives by the greek gov't. What are the greeks hiding?
Some of the things that greece is hiding is the harassment, torture and even murder that took place for just any reference to anything Macedonian. That is untill 1988 when suddenly they love Macedonia. Also, the expelling of nearly 28,000 children between the ages of 2 and 14 in 1948 alone.
These are only a few of the things that are explained in these books and all interested should read them if they want to learn the truth. If you are greek however, you will probably deny all this simply because that is what you have been taught in your greek schools.
It seems that many greeks are ignorant of the truth and refuse to learn the truth. One cannot blame another for being ignorant but if you deny the truth when it is in your face.
Now for a little education in history. Macedonia was a country which was partitioned in 1913 and greece annexed the southern portion of Macedonia the same way it annexed Thassally in 1881. Serbia and Bulgaria got the other parts. For 75 years (1913-1988) greece wanted nothing to do with anything Macedonian( in fact even mentioning the name Macedonia was forbidden and illegal). Then in 1988, "Northern greece" was renamed to "Macedonia".
I welcome any greek to explain these facts to those interested.
Instead of spreading false greek propaganda, try dealing with the truth.
pre 14 godina
to "Ballkan":
even if Alexander the Great was half illyrian, ...you´re simply off the way with your idea that the illyrians are the ancestors of todays Albanians...
that´s purely wishful thinking, an ideology invented to give the Albanians some kind of good feeling, of "being someone", but if you put all the known historical facts together - there is no single arifact, no single archeological site, simply nothing [!) that would indicate this illyrian-albanian connection.
so, better do yourself a favour and "grow up"!
todays Albanians have taken language-segments from the illyrians, since they had no consolidated national unity in the meaning of modern nations, it was just some part of a language of a vanished ethnicity that was assimilated by all the modern balkan-nations, such as Serbs, Croats, Greeks and of course also Albanians.
the only reason why you took over illyrian language segments and the others did not, is that you had no strong culture to cling to when the illyrians influenced you.
that´s what makes you so desperately believing in the illyrian myth.
so, Eagleburger should actually tell the Albanians to grow up....
pre 14 godina
I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually?
If the Greeks are so sure about there history then why worry. Its like being in denial about your sexuality, if your straight then no one can tell you otherwise, no need to worry, unless your not or simply confused.
If its that painful then Greece should changes its name to Macedonia.
But we all the why the Greek government continues to play the nationalistic card, if the Greek government really wanted to they could have solved the name dispute 18 years ago.
It doesnt bother FYROMANIANS that Greeks claim Macedonia, each to there own..
pre 14 godina
“That would be like Mexico telling the United States of America that it cannot call itself that because they are the United States of Mexico. That is crazy. It is pure stupidity.
What is pure stupidity is Eagleburger's lack of understanding of the problem.
Let me help you mister Eagleburger with an example that is more suitable for this situation.
If Mexico fell apart tomorrow and a province bordering the state of Texas decided to form a country called "Texas" would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country called "Texas" decided to name Sam Houston the father of their country appropriating Texan history as part of their new country would it be acceptable to the US?
If this new country named "Texas" was aspiring to anex Texas(a US state) into their newly formed country would the US simply accept this situation?
If this newly formed country called "Texas" was distributing schoolbooks that distorted the history of the area and continuously promoted hate towards the US based on a complete fallacy would this be acceptable to the US?
pre 14 godina
"Isn't this the same Eagleburger everyone was singing praises about last year for his comments against the Independence of Kosovo??
(pss, 9 August 2009 22:19)?
Right you are pss, and that's why I've conveniently remained silent on this post. To be honest, while I can understand to a certain degree the Greek frustration over Macedonians calling themselves Macedonians, I never really understood the fears surrounding the territorial expansion thing that supposedly threatened Thessaloniki and Halkidiki. I mean Greece is a member of NATO and Macedonia/FYROM is.....is.....well, no one really knows what it is, but I know it's certainly not irredentist. At the very least, it can barely hold on to Tetovo, let alone try to make a drunken dash over the Greek border before someone catches wind.
My guess on this is that Macedonian Slavs don't really know WHAT they are. Are they Greek? No, because they speak Slavic. Are they Serbian? No, because they speak a language closer to Bulgarian? Ok, are they Bulgarian? Well, not really since Tito inculcated a separate identity in them (I'm sticking to my "Bulgarians in denial" assumption).
So now there's this attempt at forging an identity that's more fly by night than historically factual. There's attempts appropriating Classical and Byzantine Greek along with Bulgarian history as their distinctive own, and very few people are buying it. Ok, so the neverending debate over whether Ss. Cyril and Methodios were Greek or "Macedonian" will continue. But I suspect the name thing has more to do with just the name. It's with the collective identity.
That's why I always say the most dangerous thing to teach in a university is neither chemistry nor biology, but history.
pre 14 godina
There are thee different issues. The name of the country and its people, the officialization of fictional history and the defense of human rights.
There is no trademark on the names of the countries. Neither do names indicate descent. Americans are certainly no descendents of Amerigo Vespuci! The country and the continents were simply named after him. So we come to the second issue – the falsified history. By officializing the “Macedonist” version of history during Tito’s Yugoslavia and reaching a crescendo during the present government the Macedonian leaders are indeed forfeiting the right of the country to choose its mane. Everybody sympathized with Macedonia when Greece impose a trade embargo in the 90’s. Even Greece had to make a step back. But even the firmer sympathizers of Macedonia shook their heads whet the miserable airport of Skopje was named Alexander the Great! Yet all this is nothing in comparison with the readiness of the Macedonian government to violate the most basic human rights in defending the Macedonist ideoplgy. Recently a young woman was imprisoned for 3 months and fined 30 000 Euro, ostensibly for not assuring her former husband an access to their daughter. The real reason was because she declared herself Bulgarian.
pre 14 godina
The problem is that Eagleburger is comparing a country with a few hundred years of history, where it annexed the culture and history, America...to a region with thousands of years of history! Eagleburger is good for soundbites, not for long term.
pre 14 godina
Balkan I have to disagree with your your stating that Alexander was half Illyrian and half Greek.
That is a mistake many make as Olympia Alexander III's mother was a Mollosian Princess. The Mollosians were in fact a Greek kingdom similar in structure to the Macedonian kingdom. Olympia's family claimed to be direct descendants of Achilles while Philip's family claimed direct descendancy to Heracles. I'm sure I don't have to explain the Greekness of those heros, whether they were mythological or not.
The Illyrian idea is false and mostly floated by Albanians as the phenomena of encroaching on Greek histroy is nothing new.
Let's not forget that a former Turkish President wrote a book explaining how Turks were the original inhabitants of the Agean and Aristotle, Plato and company were Turkish.
The more I think of this issue makes me think there isn't another country on earth that has faced this type of historical theft ever. The Jews come close with some fabrications by Muslim's regarding Jerusalem's place, but Greeks seem to have everyone trying to claim their history. It's become so bad that some are now claiming the Macedonians and Alexander were Celts.
Somebody please correct me, but is there another country on earth that has had more claims on its history than Greece?
pre 14 godina
I never wrote that Albanians came from Azerbaijan.I said, that is the Serbian official. You people shouldn't be afraid of the words if you think you have the right on your side. Stop censuring posts and turning them in pro serbian posts.
pre 14 godina
Ballkan: Älexander the Great was half Ilyrian half helen".
No. Alexander the Great was 100% Ilyrian, so Albanian. otherwise, Greeks can do whatever with some prts of Macedonia, but not with those ones in which Albanian population is Albanian (including Ohrid, Struga and Eastern Skopje).
pre 14 godina
The one thing I will agree with is Macedonia has been here since 600 B.C.
If you would take your head out of the greek propaganda box and look outside of the greek misinformation, you too could learn the truth. Macedonia has NEVER been greece. If you have ever seen a map of Roman history, you would know that Macedonia and greece have always been two different lands. You can look at any map you like of any era and you and anyone interested will see that Macedonia and greece have always been addressed as two separate lands.
The fact that Macedonia and any reference to it prior to 1988 was illegal and forbidden by the greek gov't is true and you not knowing about it shows your lack of historical knowledge(or ignorance, you pick) about Macedonia or greece for that matter.
If greece was Macedonia, as many greeks claim, then why is it called greece? I hope you, with your wealth of knowledge(or lack of it), can explain that.
You are abviously ignorant about the mass ethnic cleansing of Macedonians greece committed in the early 1900's. Those Macedonians that remained were forbidden to mention anything Macedonian let alone speak the Macedonian language. If you want the truth, you have to look to sources outside of greece where the greek propaganda machine is hard at work trying to cover up the truth.
I suppose non of the lack of knowledge is your fault since that is what you have been taught, however, if you don't want to learn the truth by comparing it with outside sources, it is your fault for believing false information.
Why too did greece change the name of "Northern greece" in 1988? Is that something you don't know either?
I suggest you and all greeks read at least one of the books I mention above and expand your mind on this issue(maybe the one with the author with the greek name).
Did you know too, that greece is ethnically 100% ethnically pure? Just by claiming that the greeks are making fools of themselves. I hope you will wake up and realize that these are foolish claims by the greek gov't and that the FALSE propaganda greece is trying to spread about Macedonia is no longer believed anymore because the truth is out.
pre 14 godina
What a condescendingly provocative comment: the Greeks were actually grown up long before Mr. E ancestors! But... he is getting paid to be a cheerleader... for a lost and non- noble cause. America is a continent. To say one is American is like saying one is European. Peruvians and Panamanians for instance are Americans. There are N. Americans, Central Americans and S. Americans. Mr. E's example of Mexico makes no sense at all and is purely stated in a way to arouse emotions and not a logical debate. A better analogy using Mexico would be this: After Mexico breaks apart in a hypothetical civil war (as Yugoslavia did) Baja California breaks away from Mexico and declares itself the Republic of California. Of course it's charter now includes "lost territories"
within the U.S. State of California. Now we have "Californians" on both side of a border arguing and fighting.
Of course (Baja) Californians have the right to call themselves what ever they want, in this case Californians. But do they have the right to claim all of California's history through the eons?
pre 14 godina
Someone mentioned they don't believe FYROM is "irredentist".
Official no according to an agreement as part of an accord between Greece and themselves.
In practice however... they are showing every sign of claiming Macedonia Greece as their own. Their schoolbooks claim Macedonia is "Occupied", their current PM was photographed last year laying a wreath in front of a map of "United Macedonia" (that included macedonia Greece), they manipulate well meaning human rights groups to claim persecution. (which is very sneaky because they know 2.5 million Greek Macedonians exist and they are obligated under the terms of the accord to negotiate a compromise name)
Lastly....they now tell the world they are "ancient Macedonians" and are naming everything in sight after ancient Greek leader Alexander the Great of Macedonia(when FYROM aren't even live in ancient Macedonia... the live in what used to be called Paeonia")
Apparently some media outlets and politicians don't do their homework and have forgotten what their government used to tell them about their ever shifting ethnic identity stories.
'We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.' (FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka - January 22 1999)
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not decendents of the ancient Macedonians"
Kiro Gligorov (FYROM's first President)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' (FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov - 24 February 1999)
pre 14 godina
Dos Eagleburger have any financial interests in the Balkans?
We all know the answer to that question.
Playing devil's advocate here, but let's say I gant Greece's position is stupid. Is there anything more idiotic than Eagleburger's analogy about the United States of Mexico? United is not a proper name. It's an adjective. A state is not a proper name either. Americans don't go around calling themselves United Statians. Ludicrous.
pre 14 godina
Apparently Mr. Eagelburger disagrees with another former US Secretary of State... that felt that name of nations also should take into consideration the safety of fellow allies and match historical realities.
"This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece."
Mr. Eagelburger, in this regard, seems to be inline with the views of communist dictators Stalin and Tito... that ended up in 160,000 Greeks deaths during Greek civil war. It's unfortunate he seems to prioritize the security of a non-Nato country over a fellow longtime NATO partner. (that fought the former communists for freedom... that he is now supporting. Let no good deed go unpunished.
pre 14 godina
To: Jovan,
I see that you absolutely disagree with Illyrian origine of albanian, because has been said to you many times and also pushed not to accept it. BTW I will give you some very simple example, from romans Illyrains has been called ILIRI and that is the right name, today albanians use the same word to ILIRI to say "BE FREE" or "FREE MAN" and in fact the Illyrian Kingdom was called by the others on that time "the land of free people" so this is one undisputable fact.
Other fact, lot of names of illyrian people has been passed through ages among albanians, why?
Other fact, read the book "Illyricum Sacrum" that speaks about christianity of albanians and then tell to the world the albanians - illyrians connections!
I am not denying that slav origin is from Carpats and they arrived to ballcan peninsula in VII century, this the fact and everybody knows...
pre 14 godina
Azerbaijan province and country, Luxemburg Belgium and country.
That's pretty good. But having the same name is exactly where the similarities end here.
Luxemburg province became that after it was divided from Luxemburg the country when Belgium had its revolution in the 19th century. Essentially the people that live in the region were all country men, were they not?
As for Azebiajan these people are directly related as well are they not? They speak the same Turkic language, essentially share the same culture and are Shia Muslim's as well. There are more to tie these two examples together then there are to seperate them.
In the example of the FYROM there is no common language, no common history and no common geneology.
Your attempt here to justify the FYROM position therefore falls way short of proving any point.
pre 14 godina
Niv, it is clear that you are unaware that historical facts exist outside of greece. The history I read it the TRUE history which exists in France, Russia, England, Turkey, Austria, and many others(including your own greece). Greece is the only one that does not allow access to it simply because they want to cover up and twist the truth.
It is also clear that you are unaware that these same countries played a very large role in the partition of Macedonia in 1913. The same partition which allowed your greece to annex a large part of the country of Macedonia. It is this very event that your greek gov't denies the same way they deny the existence of minorities let alone Macedonians. If you are under the assumption that knowone knows the truth, you are mistaken.
If you and many other greek nationalists would open up your minds and take that greek propaganda box off your heads, you would know all of this instead of displaying your ignorance.
Since you asked, that is the history I read, the TRUTH. I have also read the greek LIES and am wise enough to determine that all of it is exactly that, LIES AND FALSE PROPAGANDA. I am studying it so I can separate the TRUTH from the LIES and so far the greeks story falls in the LIES category.
I would also enlighted you on one very important fact you have been misinformed on. Aleksandar the Great and his father Phillip WERE NOT greek. They were in fact both MACEDONIAN. The fact that you have been misinformed on this clearly displays your lack of education on this subject. Another important fact is that MACEDONIA WAS NEVER greek. If it was, we would not be talking about MACEDONIA AND greece, the subject would be only greece.
THAT IS THE HISTORY I READ!
The facts are out there, you just have to be willing to study and embrace the truth and not the lies. Any map and any book in any time of history shows that MACEDONIA and greece were two SEPARATE lands.
That is any book or map outside of greece. The greeks are stuck on 100% ethnically pure with no minorities. (I am trying not to laugh when I hear this). And the greeks consider themselves educated.
pre 14 godina
The comparison with Mexico and America is ridiculous and shows that he is either he has no idea on the actual issues at the heart of the problem, or the more likely explanation that he is on some lobby groups payroll, most likely a group sponsored by Sorros or connected to him in some way.
If the American state of Texas gained independence, and then changed it's name to Republic of Mexico and started claiming Ancient Mexican history, then that would be a similar and fair comparison.
But he has used the type of government to make a comparisson.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger, how about you mind your own business and also how about your best friends from skojpe call there country U.S.A., they are not american right? but who cares, they are allowed to name there country whatever they want? is that right Eagleburger? MAKEDONIA IS ONLY GREEK AND WILL ALWAYS BE GREEK....
pre 14 godina
"I agree, Greece should grow up.
For arguments sake, lets say Greece Recognises FYROM as Macedonia.
1)Is it likely that the rest of the world will rewrite their History books.
2) Is it likely that FYROM will take a chunk out of Greece eventually? "
posted by Bulgar
Well if everyone agrees on the FYROM position that is in effect the re-writing of history isn't? Once you accept that FYROM's position do you not expose yourself to irridentist activities in the future?
It's faulty logic to think you can accept someone's fabrication of their own history and then expect things to return to normal, that has nothing to do with being insecure of who you are, that has everything to do with inoculating future generations from having to deal with this.
As for Luli "Alexander was 100% Illyrian". Maybe the single dumbest post on this site. Please provide a source for this amazing find, simply your statement is false.
I look forward to reading your source. On the other hand I can provide an endless amount of sources showing the Greekness of Alexander, Philip and the Macedonians.
pre 14 godina
To: All who deny illyrian - albanian connections,
Dear fellows, just search on google about albanian language and you will see how it was classified from foreign languistics (not albanians did the study), so albanian language belongs to indoeuropian family and is considered as the most ancient language together with armenian language and has nothing to do with turk language (somebody was saying that albanians comes to ballcan peninsula with turks hahahaha, shame who does not know that Gjergj Kastriota fought against turks and protected europe from turk invasion for three decades, his statue you can find in many big cities of europe). Also you can not find any other nation language that has anything in common with illyrian, only albanians have, why? simply because albanians are direct descendandts of illyrians... also all genetic analysis of bones that has been found in ancient tombs in Albania and in other parts of balcan has the same genetic chain as of albanians of today. Dear there are no doubs about albanian - illyrian connections, but lets do not go back to history, lets see the future and solve the problems of today, lets give peace to people of today whomever they are, like this we will make prosperity for humanity!
Peace to All!!!
pre 14 godina
Show me where it was illegal to refer to Macedonia, I've heard this ridiculous claim before and it only comes from Skopjian's.
Northern Greece is made up of several provinces Epirus, Thrace and Macedonia.
What you and your country men are stating here is a complete fabrication and its not surprising as you and your country men are a fabricated fake country.
Macedonia has been referred to as Macedonia from around 600 BC.
Tell us another lie Alexander of Skopje, maybe you can prove that it was illegal to refer to Northern Greece as Macedonia?
pre 14 godina
Mr Eagleburger is not stupid not toundertsand the real issues of the situation of the FYROM. He was one of the architects of the nationalistic policy of this US protectorate. Greece has the right to protect its sovereingty from any attack under any guise, name or other wise and from whom ever it comes foe or nominal friend.
pre 14 godina
Eagleburger has no clue what he is talking about nor is his example about Mexico relevant.Clearly FYROM is right next to Greece and to allow it to use the name Macedonia would cause confusion as there is already a province in Greece by the name of Macedonia.
pre 14 godina
To both Boris and Niv, it is very clear that you both have limited knowledge of all the documented facts that I have written. It is also clear that you only believe the greek propaganda that has been spread by the greek gov't.(which category would that be ignorant, foolish or falsly educated?)
When there are two sides to a disagreement, any rational person will look to more that one source of information to try and find the true answer. Both of you clearly display the opposite. You are only repeating the same lies that the greek propaganda machine has taught you. It is also very clear that you refuse to even address any of the facts that the greek gov't took part in less than one hundred years ago.
There are people alive today that suffered through the ethnic cleansing, torture and oppression the greek gov't committed.
Your own greek gov't denies that any of this took place the same way you do(annexation in 1913, along with an attempt to eliminate any existence of Macedonians soon after that with a population exchange).
All greeks have to understand that just because they and only they deny a fact does not mean it is not true. A clear example of this is the well known fact that greece claims to be 100% ethnically pure. Any rational person with a limited education knows THAT is a foolish claim, however the greeks pride themselves at that.
The greeks also have to realize that they are not the only ones which know history. There are others outside of greece that also know historical facts. These are facts which could not be influenced by greek politicians.
All facts which I have referred to are documented in many countries(France, Italy, Russia, Austria, England, Turkey just to name a few). I have personally studied the documents in France and Italy simply because I had the desire to learn the truth which is something you both should try and do instead of refusing to learn something that may not agree with what you have been taught in the greek education system filled with false propaganda.
To also clear things up, Tito was an ally of the greeks and Macedonia was not a creation of his mind. Macedonia was a republic of the Yugoslav federation. Macedonia had the same rights that all the other republics had in the federation. Tito just did not deny its existence like greece does to this day. In fact Milosevic and greece had a secret aggreement to try and repartition Macedonia during the collapse of Yugoslavia. They just failed because the rest of the world stepped up and told greece to mind her own bussiness.
Both of you should try to learn the truth instead of trying to spread false greek propaganda. Both of you need to realize that the world has educated people outside of greece and they are fully capable of learning the truth. Greece just likes to take the truth and put a greek twist on it with the hope that noone will compare the lies with facts from outside of greece. This is the same thing you are both doing but I am happy to say you and the greek gov't are failing. Expand your mind and read the facts outside of greece, not just the greek twisted lies.
pre 14 godina
Don't try and bite the hand that feeds you people.... Macedonia is Greece.
pre 14 godina
"I think that it is wrong for Greece to get involved in Macedonia’s internal affairs"
The Americans would never do anything like that HAHA.
pre 14 godina
Mr. Eagleburger needs to go back to grammar school to learn history in the Balkans,before commenting on this matter. Or is it that he has some interest in Skopia.
pre 14 godina
The name Makedonia belongs to Greece. FYROM is what your name is and should be. You can blame fromer Yugoslavia President Tito for the name decision.
pre 14 godina
To Aleksandar of Makedonia,
Honestly, do you believe the things you say?, or are you cut & pasting all the arguments fabricated by the nationalist blogs and websites you tend to get your info from?
Who is most likely to suffer from false information I ask you?
Greece?: Greek citizens can leave their borders without a visa requirement. Something that FYRoMians can not do.
FYRoM has a 33% illiteracy rate, Greece has 3%.
FYRoMian Television airs
Government sponsored spots,
with God claiming that FYRoMians are the white race,
true masters of earth, and all the rest are Negroids and
mongols..
In Greece such a thing is perceived as mere comedy.
Greece does not rename streets and stadiums after other nations heroes. FYRoM's current government does.
Greece is living for the future. FYRoM is stuck in the past.
FYRoM forbids by law!, any scientific research, regarding its ethnicity and cultural past.
Greece does not.
How sad it makes me to see the results of 17 years of state sponsored propaganda, has done to the children of this newly born state..
Instead of embracing UNIVERSALY accepted truths,
they strive to rewrite history that is whritten in more than 3000 ancient Macedonian inscriptions.
All in Greek.
Not a single ancient Macedonian inscription is written in any other language but Greek.
350, and counting, university scholars around the world sign a petition that says that ancient Macedonia was Greek.
Only a handful, say the opposite, and guess what...
they are all from FYRoM or its diaspora...
Who is in the right.. I wonder...
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia how sad that you have to cling to fabricated lies and examples of Rome to try and justify your position.
The Roman territory they referred to as Macedonia was much larger than the original Greek Macedonia. I believe the Roman administration expanded the name to include areas of Paonneia which is where you are from. Never during the reign of the Hellenistic Macedonian kingdoms did they call the same territory by that name.
Constantly drumming the same diatribe about Macedonia was always known as Macedonia and not Greece will never prove your position.
That is true in ancient times Macedonia was always referred to as Macedonia, just as Thesssaly was always referred to as Thessaly, Sparta was Sparta, Athens was Athens, and the examples go on and on.
Having a distinct name never ceased any of these people from being able to claim a common kinship and race. Why is it so difficult to understand that the Greek world stretched to many parts of the Balkans as well as the Mediterranean and Anatolia? Can you not understand what the Greek world meant?
There were Hellenic leagues that all of these states and kingdoms belonged together. Philip II was a member of a Pan Hellenic league long before he became the conquerer of this same Greek world.
What you keep telling us are lies and the fact that you simply cannot comprehend written language. The history of the Greek people is known by all who care to educate themselves.
Finally the southern part of the Greek peninsula was always known as Hellas and in the North there were the Molossian and Macedonian kingdoms. This referred to the geography but since the inception of the Macedonian kingdom in the time around 600 BC it was always known as a Greek kingdom which at that time was a brand new kingdom. This hardly can be enough to prove any kind of point beyond your ignorance of history.
pre 14 godina
Aleksander of Macedonia what are you talking about when you say we should read history books that aren't part of Greek propaganda?
I have read many, many history books and they are written and taught in higher places of learning throughout the civilized world.
What history books do you read beside the books and articles written by your people?
Every debate with a Skopjian seems to be a trip into upside down world as the same things are always parroted over and over.
History is on our side, not what we've written but what has been passed down by so many others. If you were to ask people who have no stake in this matter, ie Indians, Persian, Egyptians and the like you would find that if you asked was Alexander the Great Greek, they'd look at you as if your insane and say "Of course he was".
Find a real argument when re-writing history, it definitely is not on your side.
pre 14 godina
Well Niv, I agree on one thing with you, YOU SHOULD BE SORRY. Sorry for the fact that you lack the knowledge of history which pertains to Macedonia. It is clear that you have no knowledge of what happened in Macedonia less than one hundred years ago(partition 1913) yet you make a claim with reference to 3000 years ago.
Macedonia doesn't need to take anyones identity because she has HER OWN history and identity. It is ONLY the greeks that are so ignorant of history that refuse to admit that fact. As to what I and many other knowledgable people read. Well, again I will let you and all of your nationalist friends know that everything I have read is the TRUE HISTORY OF MACEDONIA and not the false propaganda that greece tries to spread. Someday you and your friends will come out of that dark greek cloud of false information and realize the truth.
Aleksandar and his father were both MACEDONIAN and NOT greek, a well known fact that you are obviously unaware of.
MACEDONIA was NEVER GREEK and historical documents prove that fact.
pre 12 godina
very brief.please note everithing about macedonia.before 1940 FYROM area
was named VARDATSIKA.in 1942-3 the communist countries,soviet union,yugoslavia etc. desided to have access to agean sea and to do that
they called vardatsica macedonia with a plan to take over part of greece,
macedonia all the way to olymbus mnt. also thessaloniki[intended to be
their capital] halkidiki etc greeks won with help of USA genral VAN FLEET
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
pre 14 godina
Maybe FYROM should name their country New State of Israel, just to test this theory of freedom to name grab whatever on e likes.
(George, 11 August 2009 02:42)
Good idea.I am sure this guy Eagelberger would be the first to make a fuss about it
pre 14 godina
Maybe needless to day but Greece has grown up. More precisely, it has grown up over thousands of years, actually. Erm... how long has America been around?
pre 14 godina
Illyrian language tied to Albanian, maybe, maybe not, who really cares here right now?
George Kastriotis was a great hero who fought defending the Balkans against the Turks, that is undeniable. What also is undeniable is that the Albanian people are traitors to their own hero as they converted their culture to Islam for an easier ride.
What is not debatable here is the Illyrian claims of the nationality and geneology of the Macedonian people and Alexander the Great's family, but this connection is still trying to be claimed.
Give it up, you have no tie whatsoever to the Macedonian people of Greece.
pre 14 godina
NO ONE IS RELATED TO THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS! Their tribes no longer exist, nor do the Paionian, Thracian or Illyrian tribes so stop trying to claim them everybody! This name dispute goes much deeper than a name or ancient history.
In the Republic of Macedonia, the claim to Alexander and the Ancient Macedonian tribes is an attempt by the west to further dissipate Yugoslavia by making Macedonians think they have nothing in common with Serbs and other Slavs (which is not working to well by the way)
In Greece, the claiming of ancient Macedonia is an attempt for Greece to secure without a shadow of a doubt it's own province of Macedonia within its borders because it not only has the port of Thessaloniki but because it has fertile land that without, Greece would just be rocks and mountains and Greek food would just be fish and olives. (But honestly, who's going to take Greek land?)
Everybody needs to look at more recent history and the more recent history of Macedonia is that from Thessaloniki to Skopje it was one region with various ethnicities and nationalities living side by side (like a Switzerland of the Balkans) and all of them considered themselves Macedonians despite ethnic roots until all the outside powers during the Balkan Wars cut it up into pieces and created the problems that exist in the region today. So who has the right to say who is and who is not Macedonian when many different peoples throughout history have called themselves Macedonians? Why should only the Greeks or only the Slavic Macedonians be able to call themselves Macedonia when both have for centuries?
If you look at the Ilinden uprising, most of the revolutionaries didn't care if you called yourself a Bulgar, a Serb or a Greek or whatever, just that everybody was Macedonian and had to fight together against the Turks. It's a shame that all sides look at Alexander instead of the heroes who fought to free Macedonia from Ottoman oppression. When any of these revolutionaries laid claim to Alexander it was as more of a battle call than a recognition of national identity, unlike today.
pre 14 godina
I'm sorry claiming Alexander of Macedon to be Greek is a construct of the west to break up Yugoslavia is absurd to say the least.
How western is India, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq and Egypt? Why is it no one in these countries are aware of the claims of Skopje? Why is it these people always refer to the Greeks when speaking about Alexander and his armies? Why is it that a so called foreigner decided to wipe the identity of his own people off of the face of the earth to promote another ethnicity? Simply because what you are trying to say about it is a made up lie and everyone knows what the identity of this man and his people were.
Macedonia has over the centuries been inhabited by Greeks, and Serbs, Bulgarians and Turks, there's no denying that. But what you and your brethren are repeatedly trying to do is steal away an area and identity that isn't yours. Macedonia has been inhabited by Greek speaking people for almost three thousand years now and it goes back to the time that you are trying to claim is irrelivant.
You can read anything you want but to continuously spew that the history we are debating is a Greek construct is not worth debating anymore, your people are all alone on that one. Believe what you want to believe but the history is well documented and totally against you.
Good luck, maybe you guys can try and steal Italian history now. The Roman Province of Macedonia did actually contain your territory, maybe you can erect a few statues of Julius Ceasar instead and rename your Highway the Nero 1.
It's not too late you're just getting started on your made up ethnicity maybe the Italians will be more willing to give up their history.
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