Your comparison of Serbia and Croatia to that of the US and Britain is misleading.
Americans and Britons do not claim to speak separate languages. We have as many, if not more, grammatical, lexical and syntactical differences than exist between Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian (and now Montenegrin, for God’s sake!!) but if you ask an American what language he/she speaks, even if he hates ‘Brits’, the answer will always be 'English'.
The US separated from Britain for geo-political and economic rather than so-called 'ethnic', religious or cultural reasons. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and almost all of the signatories of the declaration were of British descent, with a few Dutch. Thomas Paine, who inspired the revolution in the first place, was born in England and didn’t arrive in America until he was almost 40. Today, of course, Americans have a much wider ethnic mix, but so do we now.
Even at the height of both wars between the USA and Britain, there was never the level of hatred as there is by Croats towards Serbs (Interestingly, I have not detected the same hatred among Serbs towards Croats - I don't think they care all that much!) The British and Americans began to cooperate with one another on every level and in every way almost immediately after the wars they fought. It’s true that ordinary Britons can be very anti-American at times, but this is born more out of disappointment rather than abject hatred and the need for a scapegoat.
This is why we still speak the same language and do not embarrass ourselves by claiming otherwise.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate
(SiriusBlack, 5 August 2009 10:19)
bosniaks do not celebrate anything that would insult serbs because they live in the same state with serbs. croats on the other hand do celebrate a victory over a part of their population. given what happened to that part of croatian population celebrating this is nothing to be proud of.
Most of pro-Serb posters here seam to send the same message which can be interpreted as US/UK/Germany helped the Croats, the Kosovo Albanians, and the Bosnian Muslims and they did this because they do not like the Serbs. This is not true to my mind. Serbia has always been one of the US/UK allies but in the nineties it “stepped over the line” and into the other side. So it had to be restrained.
Let's not forget that if it weren't for the NATO and the Western powers Serbia would most probably temporarily (I say temporarily) have won all those wars and it would have continued with what it had started, i.e. ethnic cleansing of Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Sanjak. I am saying this because at the time Serbia had the might and resources of the JNA and strong paramilitary groups everywhere.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate, and I also think that it is none of Serbia’s business when they do so.
B92 once again gives the wrong information. Croatia celebrates it's official holiday on August 5--it is not "symbolic" it is official. They should not confuse the Serbian day of mourning. By the way, Happy holiday to all Croatians. It was on this day that the Croatian flag finally flew over the fortress of Knin, as it was meant to be.
Generals stripped of their medals. What about the "War Lord of Operation Zone Zagreb, General Stipetic" what happened to that "hero" responsible for shelling refugees and Bosnian 5 Corp soldiers entering Croatia to kill fleeing Serbs from Sector North.
What did The President do to secure the citizenship and the right to the property they legally possessed when the Serbs from Sector North and South fled the Cratian Army and its helpers. Nothing.
He stood by perpetrators from the then Croataian Army and Government.
Why does the EU accept this? Why not give Croatia an ultimatum for access to EU - provide citizenship to all Serbs that rightfully were to be considered Croatian Serbs and give them back their land and other lost property. That is how we do in a democratic society.
Croatian talk about democracy is air, nothing else.
Ged: "This celebration shows that there cannot ever be lasting peace between Croatia and Serbia"
Not necessarily. Americans celebrate 4th of July, yet the Britons are their closest allies. In both cases we have nations that speak (practically) the same language. Hard feelings will settle down. Yet several things have to be acknowledged:
1. The unification of Serbia and Croatia without in the Kingdom of S.C.and S. was a disaster. The tragedy was aggravated by the fact that the demarcation of the border of the so-called Croatian Banovina was done too late. But that, like the so-called Independent Croatian State is history.
2. The inclusion of the Krajna into Croatia after WWII without any autonomy" may have been a great injustice, but by 1991 it was irreparable.
3. The utter refusal of the Croatian Serbs to negotiate for a "cultural autonomy" of all Serbs throughout Croatia and to opt for a territorial separation was grave misunderstanding of the international situation. Any comparisons with Kosovo, which had a territorial autonomy for more than 40 years is inappropriate. Blame it on Tito, but what is done is done!
4. The Croats fought the war with purpose and determination, while the Serbs in 1991 bombed Dubrovnik, while in 1995 they failed to defend Knin.
Yet the Serbo-Croat reconciliation has no alternative. The return of all refugees is a cause with which the world clearly sympathizes.
I find it hilarious how Serbs here make it out that Croatia was hell bent from the very beggining on using war and violence to rid itself of its Serb population.
Sorry to say but the Serbs in Croatia objected to every peace solution because they were cocky into thinking that Serbia would continue to finance them and prop them up militarily.
What they needed to see is that Serbia led them down the wrong path and in the end betrayed them when they needed their support.
What some fail to remember here is that the region of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja (where the city of Vukovar is located)were peacefully integrated back into Croatia between 1995-1998. Hence proof that Croatia was always willing for the non-war option.
Pity the foolish Serb leadership in Krajina didn't take up these peace offers at the start as they would certainly have avoided war and those Croatian Serbs today would be enjoying prosperity in Croatia and not as third class citizens in Serbia that stabbed them in the back.
Serbs in Croatia had the choice. It was always there but they played the game of "all or nothing" and in the end they paid the price.
For those that don't know Croatia signed a peace deal and then I think 1-2 days later the largest ethnic cleansing of the war.But of course the made up 8,000 of Srebrenica overshadowed this.MPRI(company like Blackwater) was involed and the CIA used some small islands on Croat coast to send UAVs and to bomb Krajina Serb communications and radar installations.Do not forget American and Germany had a direct hand in this with troops and bombers.WW2 Jasenovac 1995 Storm and yet they have the nerves to sue Serbia in court.Croats are proud and elated but like the Muslims and Albanians they had US/German support.RIP to old and infirm that had to die as they were a threat to a pure Croat state.SRAMOTA!
"EVERY recognized country in the world has a right" to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up."
You "awoke" up in the 1990's and look what happened. Kosova is recognized by 62 (sixty-two) countries and defended b the greatest military force ever assembled on earth, NATO.
We have to start learning our lessons from the west. If there is anything that I've learned, is this.
"Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. "
EVERY recognized country in the world has a right to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
(mario, 4 August 2009 17:26)
mario, your comment is all facts and I can't deny the truth.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
Croatia used 100,000 to 200,000 troops (it's ministers have acknowledged 150,000) for a region where the population numbered from 200,000 - 300,000.
At to that that a significant number left as their had been a Croat buildup upto the operation.
The Serbs had at most 35,000 men under amrs. So Croatia needed to attack at more then a 4:1 troop ration and at somewhere between a 1:1.3 and 1:2 troop to person ratio.
By this logic America should have agttacked Iraq wirh 15 million troops to have the kind of blitzkrieg Croatia bousts of.
Dear all,
The only countries who committed atrocities in Balkans is Serbia and Croatia shame to both Serbia and Croatia
It is interesting to se how things are in Balkans really – these defenders are regarded a heroes in Croatia and the same ones are regarded as a murderers in Serbia and vise versa- this applies elsewhere in Balkans too.
One thing I know for sure: those who kill civilians are all criminals and sadly Serbia and Croatia have plenty of them
I'm pretty sure your one of the hypocrites who claims Serbia has no right.
But anyways. Youyr logic is absurd.
Peace was impossible because from the outset Croatia wanted to get rid of the Serbs.
As soon as Tudjman came to power he started to remove rights and infringements on minority rigjhts. Serbs were the only ones large enough to raise concerns.
The Serbs rebelled because it was clear Tudjman didn't want them. Not only did he infringe on their rights, but in the late 80s he would travel and meet with Ustasha groups in Argentina, Australia, USA, Canada to raise money for his politics.
Was it any surprise they rebelled. Especially when his defense minister Spegelj in 1991 was caught on tape saying Serbs should be expelled and Tudjman made Ustashe like Gojko Susak high official (Susak baring responsibility for spreadign the war to Eastern Croatia).
Serbs clearly presented their plan. Tudjman rejected them. Causing radicalization and when the west pressured him he'd make a counter proposal that was too late.
Also. Mr. Blackie, are you aware that the day before Operation Storm the Serbs signed the Z-4 Plan and Tudjman who upto that point was giving it lip service refused.
the funny thing in that operation their was no serbian rebels, just people that were Serbs because the world threatened Belgrade so the rebels were gone then the croatians came in and did what they did. so the fact is they the croats are losers they thought they beat the Serbs but all they beat were the Serbs innocents and killed, and the other thing is it was 250,000+ croats against 55,000 Serb rebels and they did nothing but they did something to the civilians, end of story.
So what about Serbia's Albanian rebels in the Kosovo region - I assume they should be wiped out asap?
Perhaps the Croatians can send Serbia some material on how to do that with the same ruthless efficiency of Storm, and then get away with it in the eyes of the world, and then have the cheek to celebrate it as a "holiday".
Croatia's track record wrt it's minorities (ie Serbs) truly is a disgrace (both now and in the past).. Serbia doesn't even come close.
Well done Croatia, well done.
Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. It had 94% un-employment and corruption which was higher than in Zimbambwe. As there was no peacful solution, Croatia had no choice but to oust the corrupt Krajina leadership and bring some peace to the region. Most krajina Serbs didn't want a krajina republic but were forced to comply from the war criminals Martic & Hadzic. It;s a shame that 2,000 Croatian serbs suffered because of a certain few.
the funny thing in that operation their was no serbian rebels, just people that were Serbs because the world threatened Belgrade so the rebels were gone then the croatians came in and did what they did. so the fact is they the croats are losers they thought they beat the Serbs but all they beat were the Serbs innocents and killed, and the other thing is it was 250,000+ croats against 55,000 Serb rebels and they did nothing but they did something to the civilians, end of story.
So what about Serbia's Albanian rebels in the Kosovo region - I assume they should be wiped out asap?
Perhaps the Croatians can send Serbia some material on how to do that with the same ruthless efficiency of Storm, and then get away with it in the eyes of the world, and then have the cheek to celebrate it as a "holiday".
Croatia's track record wrt it's minorities (ie Serbs) truly is a disgrace (both now and in the past).. Serbia doesn't even come close.
Well done Croatia, well done.
Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. It had 94% un-employment and corruption which was higher than in Zimbambwe. As there was no peacful solution, Croatia had no choice but to oust the corrupt Krajina leadership and bring some peace to the region. Most krajina Serbs didn't want a krajina republic but were forced to comply from the war criminals Martic & Hadzic. It;s a shame that 2,000 Croatian serbs suffered because of a certain few.
I'm pretty sure your one of the hypocrites who claims Serbia has no right.
But anyways. Youyr logic is absurd.
Peace was impossible because from the outset Croatia wanted to get rid of the Serbs.
As soon as Tudjman came to power he started to remove rights and infringements on minority rigjhts. Serbs were the only ones large enough to raise concerns.
The Serbs rebelled because it was clear Tudjman didn't want them. Not only did he infringe on their rights, but in the late 80s he would travel and meet with Ustasha groups in Argentina, Australia, USA, Canada to raise money for his politics.
Was it any surprise they rebelled. Especially when his defense minister Spegelj in 1991 was caught on tape saying Serbs should be expelled and Tudjman made Ustashe like Gojko Susak high official (Susak baring responsibility for spreadign the war to Eastern Croatia).
Serbs clearly presented their plan. Tudjman rejected them. Causing radicalization and when the west pressured him he'd make a counter proposal that was too late.
Also. Mr. Blackie, are you aware that the day before Operation Storm the Serbs signed the Z-4 Plan and Tudjman who upto that point was giving it lip service refused.
Croatia used 100,000 to 200,000 troops (it's ministers have acknowledged 150,000) for a region where the population numbered from 200,000 - 300,000.
At to that that a significant number left as their had been a Croat buildup upto the operation.
The Serbs had at most 35,000 men under amrs. So Croatia needed to attack at more then a 4:1 troop ration and at somewhere between a 1:1.3 and 1:2 troop to person ratio.
By this logic America should have agttacked Iraq wirh 15 million troops to have the kind of blitzkrieg Croatia bousts of.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
We have to start learning our lessons from the west. If there is anything that I've learned, is this.
"Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. "
EVERY recognized country in the world has a right to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up.
Dear all,
The only countries who committed atrocities in Balkans is Serbia and Croatia shame to both Serbia and Croatia
It is interesting to se how things are in Balkans really – these defenders are regarded a heroes in Croatia and the same ones are regarded as a murderers in Serbia and vise versa- this applies elsewhere in Balkans too.
One thing I know for sure: those who kill civilians are all criminals and sadly Serbia and Croatia have plenty of them
Your comparison of Serbia and Croatia to that of the US and Britain is misleading.
Americans and Britons do not claim to speak separate languages. We have as many, if not more, grammatical, lexical and syntactical differences than exist between Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian (and now Montenegrin, for God’s sake!!) but if you ask an American what language he/she speaks, even if he hates ‘Brits’, the answer will always be 'English'.
The US separated from Britain for geo-political and economic rather than so-called 'ethnic', religious or cultural reasons. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and almost all of the signatories of the declaration were of British descent, with a few Dutch. Thomas Paine, who inspired the revolution in the first place, was born in England and didn’t arrive in America until he was almost 40. Today, of course, Americans have a much wider ethnic mix, but so do we now.
Even at the height of both wars between the USA and Britain, there was never the level of hatred as there is by Croats towards Serbs (Interestingly, I have not detected the same hatred among Serbs towards Croats - I don't think they care all that much!) The British and Americans began to cooperate with one another on every level and in every way almost immediately after the wars they fought. It’s true that ordinary Britons can be very anti-American at times, but this is born more out of disappointment rather than abject hatred and the need for a scapegoat.
This is why we still speak the same language and do not embarrass ourselves by claiming otherwise.
B92 once again gives the wrong information. Croatia celebrates it's official holiday on August 5--it is not "symbolic" it is official. They should not confuse the Serbian day of mourning. By the way, Happy holiday to all Croatians. It was on this day that the Croatian flag finally flew over the fortress of Knin, as it was meant to be.
For those that don't know Croatia signed a peace deal and then I think 1-2 days later the largest ethnic cleansing of the war.But of course the made up 8,000 of Srebrenica overshadowed this.MPRI(company like Blackwater) was involed and the CIA used some small islands on Croat coast to send UAVs and to bomb Krajina Serb communications and radar installations.Do not forget American and Germany had a direct hand in this with troops and bombers.WW2 Jasenovac 1995 Storm and yet they have the nerves to sue Serbia in court.Croats are proud and elated but like the Muslims and Albanians they had US/German support.RIP to old and infirm that had to die as they were a threat to a pure Croat state.SRAMOTA!
Generals stripped of their medals. What about the "War Lord of Operation Zone Zagreb, General Stipetic" what happened to that "hero" responsible for shelling refugees and Bosnian 5 Corp soldiers entering Croatia to kill fleeing Serbs from Sector North.
What did The President do to secure the citizenship and the right to the property they legally possessed when the Serbs from Sector North and South fled the Cratian Army and its helpers. Nothing.
He stood by perpetrators from the then Croataian Army and Government.
Why does the EU accept this? Why not give Croatia an ultimatum for access to EU - provide citizenship to all Serbs that rightfully were to be considered Croatian Serbs and give them back their land and other lost property. That is how we do in a democratic society.
Croatian talk about democracy is air, nothing else.
Most of pro-Serb posters here seam to send the same message which can be interpreted as US/UK/Germany helped the Croats, the Kosovo Albanians, and the Bosnian Muslims and they did this because they do not like the Serbs. This is not true to my mind. Serbia has always been one of the US/UK allies but in the nineties it “stepped over the line” and into the other side. So it had to be restrained.
Let's not forget that if it weren't for the NATO and the Western powers Serbia would most probably temporarily (I say temporarily) have won all those wars and it would have continued with what it had started, i.e. ethnic cleansing of Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Sanjak. I am saying this because at the time Serbia had the might and resources of the JNA and strong paramilitary groups everywhere.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate, and I also think that it is none of Serbia’s business when they do so.
I find it hilarious how Serbs here make it out that Croatia was hell bent from the very beggining on using war and violence to rid itself of its Serb population.
Sorry to say but the Serbs in Croatia objected to every peace solution because they were cocky into thinking that Serbia would continue to finance them and prop them up militarily.
What they needed to see is that Serbia led them down the wrong path and in the end betrayed them when they needed their support.
What some fail to remember here is that the region of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja (where the city of Vukovar is located)were peacefully integrated back into Croatia between 1995-1998. Hence proof that Croatia was always willing for the non-war option.
Pity the foolish Serb leadership in Krajina didn't take up these peace offers at the start as they would certainly have avoided war and those Croatian Serbs today would be enjoying prosperity in Croatia and not as third class citizens in Serbia that stabbed them in the back.
Serbs in Croatia had the choice. It was always there but they played the game of "all or nothing" and in the end they paid the price.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
(mario, 4 August 2009 17:26)
mario, your comment is all facts and I can't deny the truth.
Ged: "This celebration shows that there cannot ever be lasting peace between Croatia and Serbia"
Not necessarily. Americans celebrate 4th of July, yet the Britons are their closest allies. In both cases we have nations that speak (practically) the same language. Hard feelings will settle down. Yet several things have to be acknowledged:
1. The unification of Serbia and Croatia without in the Kingdom of S.C.and S. was a disaster. The tragedy was aggravated by the fact that the demarcation of the border of the so-called Croatian Banovina was done too late. But that, like the so-called Independent Croatian State is history.
2. The inclusion of the Krajna into Croatia after WWII without any autonomy" may have been a great injustice, but by 1991 it was irreparable.
3. The utter refusal of the Croatian Serbs to negotiate for a "cultural autonomy" of all Serbs throughout Croatia and to opt for a territorial separation was grave misunderstanding of the international situation. Any comparisons with Kosovo, which had a territorial autonomy for more than 40 years is inappropriate. Blame it on Tito, but what is done is done!
4. The Croats fought the war with purpose and determination, while the Serbs in 1991 bombed Dubrovnik, while in 1995 they failed to defend Knin.
Yet the Serbo-Croat reconciliation has no alternative. The return of all refugees is a cause with which the world clearly sympathizes.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate
(SiriusBlack, 5 August 2009 10:19)
bosniaks do not celebrate anything that would insult serbs because they live in the same state with serbs. croats on the other hand do celebrate a victory over a part of their population. given what happened to that part of croatian population celebrating this is nothing to be proud of.
"EVERY recognized country in the world has a right" to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up."
You "awoke" up in the 1990's and look what happened. Kosova is recognized by 62 (sixty-two) countries and defended b the greatest military force ever assembled on earth, NATO.
Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. It had 94% un-employment and corruption which was higher than in Zimbambwe. As there was no peacful solution, Croatia had no choice but to oust the corrupt Krajina leadership and bring some peace to the region. Most krajina Serbs didn't want a krajina republic but were forced to comply from the war criminals Martic & Hadzic. It;s a shame that 2,000 Croatian serbs suffered because of a certain few.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
(mario, 4 August 2009 17:26)
mario, your comment is all facts and I can't deny the truth.
So what about Serbia's Albanian rebels in the Kosovo region - I assume they should be wiped out asap?
Perhaps the Croatians can send Serbia some material on how to do that with the same ruthless efficiency of Storm, and then get away with it in the eyes of the world, and then have the cheek to celebrate it as a "holiday".
Croatia's track record wrt it's minorities (ie Serbs) truly is a disgrace (both now and in the past).. Serbia doesn't even come close.
Well done Croatia, well done.
What crime? ICTY Judgment against Milan Martic shows Slobodan Milosevic's guilt and Yugoslav People Army's involvement in the widespread war crimes. Serbs ethnically cleansed Croats, Bosniaks, and other non-Serbs from it's territory 4 years before Croatian and Bosnian Army struck back and regained forcibly taken territory. It also shows that more than 200,000 Croats and other non-Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Serb-held territories in Croatia long before Croatian and Bosnian Army attacked Serbs and regained lost territory in the Operation Storm. Croatian solider defended his own country and did not engage in war on Serbian territory. By bringing up the issue of “aggressor and the victim”, placing Serbia and Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo on the same defendant`s bench was “tasteless in relation to values of the western civilisation”. The only crime bigger than the war crime is the post war one, for which the aggressor is absolved.
the funny thing in that operation their was no serbian rebels, just people that were Serbs because the world threatened Belgrade so the rebels were gone then the croatians came in and did what they did. so the fact is they the croats are losers they thought they beat the Serbs but all they beat were the Serbs innocents and killed, and the other thing is it was 250,000+ croats against 55,000 Serb rebels and they did nothing but they did something to the civilians, end of story.
Dear all,
The only countries who committed atrocities in Balkans is Serbia and Croatia shame to both Serbia and Croatia
It is interesting to se how things are in Balkans really – these defenders are regarded a heroes in Croatia and the same ones are regarded as a murderers in Serbia and vise versa- this applies elsewhere in Balkans too.
One thing I know for sure: those who kill civilians are all criminals and sadly Serbia and Croatia have plenty of them
Croatia used 100,000 to 200,000 troops (it's ministers have acknowledged 150,000) for a region where the population numbered from 200,000 - 300,000.
At to that that a significant number left as their had been a Croat buildup upto the operation.
The Serbs had at most 35,000 men under amrs. So Croatia needed to attack at more then a 4:1 troop ration and at somewhere between a 1:1.3 and 1:2 troop to person ratio.
By this logic America should have agttacked Iraq wirh 15 million troops to have the kind of blitzkrieg Croatia bousts of.
"EVERY recognized country in the world has a right" to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up."
You "awoke" up in the 1990's and look what happened. Kosova is recognized by 62 (sixty-two) countries and defended b the greatest military force ever assembled on earth, NATO.
B92 once again gives the wrong information. Croatia celebrates it's official holiday on August 5--it is not "symbolic" it is official. They should not confuse the Serbian day of mourning. By the way, Happy holiday to all Croatians. It was on this day that the Croatian flag finally flew over the fortress of Knin, as it was meant to be.
Most of pro-Serb posters here seam to send the same message which can be interpreted as US/UK/Germany helped the Croats, the Kosovo Albanians, and the Bosnian Muslims and they did this because they do not like the Serbs. This is not true to my mind. Serbia has always been one of the US/UK allies but in the nineties it “stepped over the line” and into the other side. So it had to be restrained.
Let's not forget that if it weren't for the NATO and the Western powers Serbia would most probably temporarily (I say temporarily) have won all those wars and it would have continued with what it had started, i.e. ethnic cleansing of Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Sanjak. I am saying this because at the time Serbia had the might and resources of the JNA and strong paramilitary groups everywhere.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate, and I also think that it is none of Serbia’s business when they do so.
I'm pretty sure your one of the hypocrites who claims Serbia has no right.
But anyways. Youyr logic is absurd.
Peace was impossible because from the outset Croatia wanted to get rid of the Serbs.
As soon as Tudjman came to power he started to remove rights and infringements on minority rigjhts. Serbs were the only ones large enough to raise concerns.
The Serbs rebelled because it was clear Tudjman didn't want them. Not only did he infringe on their rights, but in the late 80s he would travel and meet with Ustasha groups in Argentina, Australia, USA, Canada to raise money for his politics.
Was it any surprise they rebelled. Especially when his defense minister Spegelj in 1991 was caught on tape saying Serbs should be expelled and Tudjman made Ustashe like Gojko Susak high official (Susak baring responsibility for spreadign the war to Eastern Croatia).
Serbs clearly presented their plan. Tudjman rejected them. Causing radicalization and when the west pressured him he'd make a counter proposal that was too late.
Also. Mr. Blackie, are you aware that the day before Operation Storm the Serbs signed the Z-4 Plan and Tudjman who upto that point was giving it lip service refused.
We have to start learning our lessons from the west. If there is anything that I've learned, is this.
"Every recognised country in the world has the right to punish so called rebels who attempt to create anarchy and disorder. The so called Krajina was not recognised by the U.N. "
EVERY recognized country in the world has a right to do so. Serbia too. How long we are going to tolerate Kosovo?
Serbia wake up.
For those that don't know Croatia signed a peace deal and then I think 1-2 days later the largest ethnic cleansing of the war.But of course the made up 8,000 of Srebrenica overshadowed this.MPRI(company like Blackwater) was involed and the CIA used some small islands on Croat coast to send UAVs and to bomb Krajina Serb communications and radar installations.Do not forget American and Germany had a direct hand in this with troops and bombers.WW2 Jasenovac 1995 Storm and yet they have the nerves to sue Serbia in court.Croats are proud and elated but like the Muslims and Albanians they had US/German support.RIP to old and infirm that had to die as they were a threat to a pure Croat state.SRAMOTA!
Generals stripped of their medals. What about the "War Lord of Operation Zone Zagreb, General Stipetic" what happened to that "hero" responsible for shelling refugees and Bosnian 5 Corp soldiers entering Croatia to kill fleeing Serbs from Sector North.
What did The President do to secure the citizenship and the right to the property they legally possessed when the Serbs from Sector North and South fled the Cratian Army and its helpers. Nothing.
He stood by perpetrators from the then Croataian Army and Government.
Why does the EU accept this? Why not give Croatia an ultimatum for access to EU - provide citizenship to all Serbs that rightfully were to be considered Croatian Serbs and give them back their land and other lost property. That is how we do in a democratic society.
Croatian talk about democracy is air, nothing else.
I find it hilarious how Serbs here make it out that Croatia was hell bent from the very beggining on using war and violence to rid itself of its Serb population.
Sorry to say but the Serbs in Croatia objected to every peace solution because they were cocky into thinking that Serbia would continue to finance them and prop them up militarily.
What they needed to see is that Serbia led them down the wrong path and in the end betrayed them when they needed their support.
What some fail to remember here is that the region of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja (where the city of Vukovar is located)were peacefully integrated back into Croatia between 1995-1998. Hence proof that Croatia was always willing for the non-war option.
Pity the foolish Serb leadership in Krajina didn't take up these peace offers at the start as they would certainly have avoided war and those Croatian Serbs today would be enjoying prosperity in Croatia and not as third class citizens in Serbia that stabbed them in the back.
Serbs in Croatia had the choice. It was always there but they played the game of "all or nothing" and in the end they paid the price.
Ged: "This celebration shows that there cannot ever be lasting peace between Croatia and Serbia"
Not necessarily. Americans celebrate 4th of July, yet the Britons are their closest allies. In both cases we have nations that speak (practically) the same language. Hard feelings will settle down. Yet several things have to be acknowledged:
1. The unification of Serbia and Croatia without in the Kingdom of S.C.and S. was a disaster. The tragedy was aggravated by the fact that the demarcation of the border of the so-called Croatian Banovina was done too late. But that, like the so-called Independent Croatian State is history.
2. The inclusion of the Krajna into Croatia after WWII without any autonomy" may have been a great injustice, but by 1991 it was irreparable.
3. The utter refusal of the Croatian Serbs to negotiate for a "cultural autonomy" of all Serbs throughout Croatia and to opt for a territorial separation was grave misunderstanding of the international situation. Any comparisons with Kosovo, which had a territorial autonomy for more than 40 years is inappropriate. Blame it on Tito, but what is done is done!
4. The Croats fought the war with purpose and determination, while the Serbs in 1991 bombed Dubrovnik, while in 1995 they failed to defend Knin.
Yet the Serbo-Croat reconciliation has no alternative. The return of all refugees is a cause with which the world clearly sympathizes.
So, I do not thing there’s anything wrong if the Croats or Albanians or Bosnian Muslims celebrate
(SiriusBlack, 5 August 2009 10:19)
bosniaks do not celebrate anything that would insult serbs because they live in the same state with serbs. croats on the other hand do celebrate a victory over a part of their population. given what happened to that part of croatian population celebrating this is nothing to be proud of.
Your comparison of Serbia and Croatia to that of the US and Britain is misleading.
Americans and Britons do not claim to speak separate languages. We have as many, if not more, grammatical, lexical and syntactical differences than exist between Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian (and now Montenegrin, for God’s sake!!) but if you ask an American what language he/she speaks, even if he hates ‘Brits’, the answer will always be 'English'.
The US separated from Britain for geo-political and economic rather than so-called 'ethnic', religious or cultural reasons. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and almost all of the signatories of the declaration were of British descent, with a few Dutch. Thomas Paine, who inspired the revolution in the first place, was born in England and didn’t arrive in America until he was almost 40. Today, of course, Americans have a much wider ethnic mix, but so do we now.
Even at the height of both wars between the USA and Britain, there was never the level of hatred as there is by Croats towards Serbs (Interestingly, I have not detected the same hatred among Serbs towards Croats - I don't think they care all that much!) The British and Americans began to cooperate with one another on every level and in every way almost immediately after the wars they fought. It’s true that ordinary Britons can be very anti-American at times, but this is born more out of disappointment rather than abject hatred and the need for a scapegoat.
This is why we still speak the same language and do not embarrass ourselves by claiming otherwise.
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