Reading this thread that like all others turns a tug of war between serbians and a
kosovars when the subject is Kosovo the central point becomes clear for anyone who are not
emotionally involved with the question: The serbs continue orphans of Balkania and this
geopolitical misconception do they unable of see the future.
What is Balkania? Balkania is just a country like France, Spain, England, there
francs, spainishs and normands conviced the others ethinic groups of the existence of a
modern nation like a real umbrella for alls so France, Spain and England could be born. The
Balkans stood under the control of the austrian empire so the modern nation Balkania could
not be born. After the WWI serbians was very nationalistics for understand Balkania and this
state went to limbo, after the WWII the idea was build like a south slavian country anchored
by serbia and croatia this represent by Tito, a croatian ruling serbs was not sufficient for
put live on this surpassed geopolitical entity, like the former URSS the ethinic groups
already had created a national identity and a new european multiethinic modern state was not
more possible. The milosevic´s concept of impose by force this idea was a disaster, serbs
was turned the enemy not the amalgam, the balkanic ethinic groups claimed by theirs own
states and the only way possible was a sort of new nations each protecting its own cultural
heritage. Luckly the nowaday economy turns small states more easy to succeed then the big
ones the service economy dont claim by natural resources for succeed but only by education
and comercial routes, HongKong and Taiwan and several asian tigers demonstrate this concept,
the ethinic groups spread out on the national spaces is a strong factor for building
comercial links but unfortunately is being used for national aspirations, there are no more
room for empires worldwide and balkans definitively not.
Jeremic on his trip to UN said that Serbia could continue trying the european path and the serbian empire or just the retake of kosovo like no linked subjects, this is the real geopolitical serbian misconcept, the serbian elite is traped on nacionalistic will and dont see the region as whole, the next war will be a economic war and Serbia putting Kosovo on corner will not only damage his neighbor but the entire region and Serbia itself, Kosovo is no long more a serbian province trying keep open the milosevic´s door for the future is unwise the result will be the serbian isolation, if and when the balkans perceive that can live without serbia serbia will lost the future, the real war now is the draft of the future economic map of the region, insist on "kosovo province" is a lose-lose situation for use a serbian logic, Serbia needs free his people of the past and recognize Kosovo the is the zero mark for the european path.
but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 5 August 2009 07:16)
Roberto,
After the corruption scandals with SAAB jets, any trust in NATO one would ever have should be gone. I don't trust anyone. Much better approach to a neighborhood where everyone is a villain.
NATO may be downsizing but it ain't going nowhere. i do believe in the inner goodness of (most) people, and i do often pray to god (you can say "allah" if you wish) but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
What has Albania being in NATO got do do with Kosovo?
Albania is a separate country and frankly only got into NATO because they needed more suckers to send to Afghanistan.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
How can you say such things? Are you not ashamed to say this out loud when we have proof? We've all seen destroyed churches and monasteries with our own eyes.
We don't have to travel to Kosovo to see it. The pictures are there. We live in the modern times when we have access to media from all around the world.
Zoran,
What Serbia is offering Kosovo is to return to pre-Milosivic status with no change of heart of Serbia. Once the international community is out of the picture there is no guarantees. As you and so many here have often emphasized the Serbian people have a great level of patience to wait until that day.
There is a very wise saying 'Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me"
How could any reasonable person ever expect the people in Kosovo to return to "any" Serbian control?
Since there is so much rubbish in this thread so I will reply to only three of the most disillusionated posts here:
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
Yep, youre sure right there pardner! ;-) (note my smiley)
And we all know what happended to the Mujaheeden in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein who was the best allies of the US and NATO the middle east in the late 80:s to the early 90:s.
What happend to them? Please inform me!
Do you honestly belive that the same won't happen to UCK leaders in Pristina if they get to demanding?
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
"KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region."
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! Do you really belive that yourself?????
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
Greetings
Cheers
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
Mendo, obviously you only know the rich fat cats in Pristina.
Will the average Albanian be able to wait 10-70 years to get money and food to feed their children when the EU money welfare has dried out? All while Serbia is blooming and preventing Kosovo from entering international organisations such as EU and UN.
Nationalistic speach like this doesn't keep anyone satisfied for a long time, sooner than you expect some Albanians will return to the negotiation table... It doesn't have to be this rich generation of fat cats in Pristina, it can be their children in 10 years...
Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I am sure you are a proud serb. Be that way and let the other judge who is being ridiculous.
Of course they should scale down! There is no more need for KFOR there!The Americans will keep Bondsteel and the rest will leave. NATO kan be back everywhere in that region within a few hours if something should happen.
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today
(pss, 4 August 2009 13:49)
--
pss, Serbia is offering exactly what our ethnic Albanian citizens have today or will ever achieve. More than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self-rule.
What negotiations will achieve is to finally put an end to this status issue. It will bring peace and allow the province to finally prosper.
Without negotiations the temporary institutions will continue to vent their frustration on Serbia by the lack of independence, which is blocked. That is not progress!
It's time to accept reality instead of endlessly banging your head against a brick wall. It seems NATO has finally come to terms with that reality and are planning their withdrawal. When will our ethnic Albanian citizens?
The "young & handsome" as our great Silvio once nicknamed the new Nato secretary has only said that he hopes that Troops in 2013 will be home..he knows that the willing of majority of countries is to cut this costly operation at the same time he is aware that this is the only Nato operations on the field right now that has a meaning on the basis of the principles of the Alliance...he knows that we can leave Afghanistan in a mess without big regrets but no more in Europe and that is a dogma !!
So he will carefully watch what is coming out of Kosovo...But no hurry to leave !!
Some really funny comments from our Albanian friends today. We've got "Serbian aggression", "NATO member",and suddenly Albanians give a damn about cultural heritage that isn't theirs (read as "stuff we couldn't convince, or are still trying to convince, others that is ours). Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I highly doubt "Serbian aggression" is going to rear its ugly head in the near future, since Belgrade is headed by a government that's actually committed to European integration, as opposed to a ragtag group of people in suits in Pristina that is simply eager to take European money. I doubt Kosovo will be in NATO as some say since it can't even maintain control of its own soveriengty, let alone provide access to its leaders to travel wherever and whenever they please. And as for the little gaffe about respecting the heritage of Decani, I seem to recall some Neo-Illyrian attempting to launch a rocket or two at the monastery not too long ago. It's also sort of weird to see Italian soldiers guarding Decani and Pec today, just as they were protecting both monsteries during WWII when Albanians were sleeping with Nazis. Then there's the cute "Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries." Hmmm, I'm still waiting on a good explanation for what possessed the frenzied mob to destroy "other old Serbian monasteries" in Devic and Prizren.
I sincerely hope NATO doesn't leave because its leaders are only deluding themselves that this is a success story. But then again, they also think Bosnia is a success too.
After helping establish a base for Islamic Jihad they now want to leave after 200 + Wahhabi mosques have been established and will producing "graduates."
I suspect KFOR and NATO will rush back in when the "graduates" start practicing their craft.
"as for the NATO-troops... I´ve always said it: the ottomans were here for 500 years... "
The slavs have been (or were) for 1300 years!!! How's that for a comeback story?
To Zoran etc: It matter not what China and Russia will do: US /EU /NATO want to close shop so Serbia must do certain things if they ever want to see EU. The, Russia and China have no reason to do anything.
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
Well, I think there seems to be an agreement between some Serbs and Albanians that it will be good for them for NATO to leave. Albanians want their own Army to run their affairs, which what NATO has in mind as well, but Serbs think this will allow them to forcefully take Kosovo again. Given what I have learned recently from some middle level officer at KSF, Albanians may be closer to reality. Vuk Jeremic probably knows this too; that's why is actively pushing against the NATO troop reduction. Odd that he would do that given how Serbia considers them an occupation force. Don't you think so?
Small NATO will remain until Kosovo joins NATO, OR Kosovo army is capable of defending Kosovo borders from potential agressions.
Gone are those days where Albanians were orphans of Europe. We have loads of strong and worthy allies now, and with their help we ought to achieve that what we had b4- liberation from opression, peace and freedom of all in all Illyrian land.
Yes, Nick, I have been to Decani multiple times and there numerous Italian soldiers nearby to prevent any attacks on the church. How dare you claim that the riots were not directed against Serbs??? You are being intellectually dishonest if you tell me that the multiple churches and monasteries that were attacked had nothing to do with anti-Serb hatred. Furthermore, these attacks on churches also happened before 2004, and after it.
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
Michael, NATO/KFOR will be remembered as a success for stepping in early enough to prevent the total cleansing of a people. Their only disgrace is in not requiring an unconditional surrender.
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today, so where will ever be the benefit to anyone other than Serbia? All the things you claim Kosovo will never have, they could never have as a province of Serbia.
Have you ever actualy seen the Decani monastery after 1999?
If someone truly wanted to destory that monastery, then the 3 Italian soldiers and a fence who guard it, are not going to stop them.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
What you fail to understand, is that places like the Decani monastery carry some significance for the Kosovar Albanians too. Back in Yugoslav days the area use to be a famous holiday retreat for Kosovar Albanians. Many of our parents met there.
2004 was an outburst of violence that was not particuarly aimed at the Serbian churches or Serbian civilans. Instead, it was a result of the poor administration of Kosova by UNMIK and the terrible economic conditions in which a majority of the population was living.
Under 1244 the UN was obligated to initiate serious negotiations on the Kosova status three years after the adoption of 1244. The delays provoked the violence.
For anyone who was on the streets of Prishtina on March 2004 (like myself) the buring UN cars were a clear indication of the cause of the violence.
Rasmussen said, adding: "By the end of my term, I want to see KFOR reduced to just a small reaction force, or out altogether."
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
I think you missed the "NATO is reducing its presence in Kosovo due to achievements in the field"
Its also not good for the image of Kosovo to have foreign troops guard its borders and maintain its security.
I fully agree that NATO should reduce its presence and only maintain sufficient troops for fast reaction, in case the Serbs get any of their bright ideas again.
The NATO trained and equipped KSF and a small NATO contingent should be enough to deterr any Serb aggresion.
There will never be any negociations. Our distrust of Serbian politics and polititians is a lot deeper thay may think, and there are historical facts on which our distrust is based.
'"Kosovo is a success story and it is therefore possible to reduce our presence there," according to Rasmussen.'
NO, Mr. Rasmussen. Kosovo is a DISASTER and you know that only too well.
You talk in glowing terms of KFOR's performance in KiM. Utter rubbish!
You mention what you would like to achieve by the end of your term. Gobbleegook!
I'm telling you that you and your cohorts must sit down and create a job plan which must include the methodology you will use in making amends to Serbia for all atrocities committed by KFOR/NATO forces against Serbs, not only in Kosovo i Metohija, but also in the rest of Serbia.
KFOR will go down in history as having been an International Disgrace.
Nick, NATO is needed to protect Serbian cultural heritage like the monasteries in Decani, Pec, and Gracanica from the savages that tried to detstroy them in 2004... That is a sad reality.
This means in practice that NATO is tired of protecting the corrupt Albanian leadership in Pristina and only interested in keeping Camp Bondsteel.
I guess NATO won't protest to much if Vojske Srbije are going in to protect the north and enclaves from Albanian terror. Probably the same lame protests as when South Ossetia and Abkhazia became independent last year.
Nato will hopefully be occupied with losing the war in Afghanistan for several more years. All while proudly inviting new poor eastern european countries to do the fighting for them.
I have always said that maintaining the status quo is a very costly excercise for the occupiers, however it costs next to nothing to keep Kosovo's independence irreversibly blocked. While the US is the largest funds contributor to the UN, Russia and China continue to keep independence blocked. The US continues to spend billions on achieving nothing, both in NATO troop deployments and funding the UN.
Kosovo is going nowhere until our ethnic Albanian citizens are drawn to the negotiating table. They should realise by now that independence is not achievable and the most they will ever get is more than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self rule.
So instead of coming here day in day out throwing mud at each other, lets start to work on efforts to bring peace, prosperity and harmony to our province. That will be one step forward we can all make.
I think you missed the "NATO is reducing its presence in Kosovo due to achievements in the field"
Its also not good for the image of Kosovo to have foreign troops guard its borders and maintain its security.
I fully agree that NATO should reduce its presence and only maintain sufficient troops for fast reaction, in case the Serbs get any of their bright ideas again.
The NATO trained and equipped KSF and a small NATO contingent should be enough to deterr any Serb aggresion.
There will never be any negociations. Our distrust of Serbian politics and polititians is a lot deeper thay may think, and there are historical facts on which our distrust is based.
I have always said that maintaining the status quo is a very costly excercise for the occupiers, however it costs next to nothing to keep Kosovo's independence irreversibly blocked. While the US is the largest funds contributor to the UN, Russia and China continue to keep independence blocked. The US continues to spend billions on achieving nothing, both in NATO troop deployments and funding the UN.
Kosovo is going nowhere until our ethnic Albanian citizens are drawn to the negotiating table. They should realise by now that independence is not achievable and the most they will ever get is more than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self rule.
So instead of coming here day in day out throwing mud at each other, lets start to work on efforts to bring peace, prosperity and harmony to our province. That will be one step forward we can all make.
Nick, NATO is needed to protect Serbian cultural heritage like the monasteries in Decani, Pec, and Gracanica from the savages that tried to detstroy them in 2004... That is a sad reality.
Yes, Nick, I have been to Decani multiple times and there numerous Italian soldiers nearby to prevent any attacks on the church. How dare you claim that the riots were not directed against Serbs??? You are being intellectually dishonest if you tell me that the multiple churches and monasteries that were attacked had nothing to do with anti-Serb hatred. Furthermore, these attacks on churches also happened before 2004, and after it.
Have you ever actualy seen the Decani monastery after 1999?
If someone truly wanted to destory that monastery, then the 3 Italian soldiers and a fence who guard it, are not going to stop them.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
What you fail to understand, is that places like the Decani monastery carry some significance for the Kosovar Albanians too. Back in Yugoslav days the area use to be a famous holiday retreat for Kosovar Albanians. Many of our parents met there.
2004 was an outburst of violence that was not particuarly aimed at the Serbian churches or Serbian civilans. Instead, it was a result of the poor administration of Kosova by UNMIK and the terrible economic conditions in which a majority of the population was living.
Under 1244 the UN was obligated to initiate serious negotiations on the Kosova status three years after the adoption of 1244. The delays provoked the violence.
For anyone who was on the streets of Prishtina on March 2004 (like myself) the buring UN cars were a clear indication of the cause of the violence.
'"Kosovo is a success story and it is therefore possible to reduce our presence there," according to Rasmussen.'
NO, Mr. Rasmussen. Kosovo is a DISASTER and you know that only too well.
You talk in glowing terms of KFOR's performance in KiM. Utter rubbish!
You mention what you would like to achieve by the end of your term. Gobbleegook!
I'm telling you that you and your cohorts must sit down and create a job plan which must include the methodology you will use in making amends to Serbia for all atrocities committed by KFOR/NATO forces against Serbs, not only in Kosovo i Metohija, but also in the rest of Serbia.
KFOR will go down in history as having been an International Disgrace.
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
This means in practice that NATO is tired of protecting the corrupt Albanian leadership in Pristina and only interested in keeping Camp Bondsteel.
I guess NATO won't protest to much if Vojske Srbije are going in to protect the north and enclaves from Albanian terror. Probably the same lame protests as when South Ossetia and Abkhazia became independent last year.
Nato will hopefully be occupied with losing the war in Afghanistan for several more years. All while proudly inviting new poor eastern european countries to do the fighting for them.
Rasmussen said, adding: "By the end of my term, I want to see KFOR reduced to just a small reaction force, or out altogether."
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
Well, I think there seems to be an agreement between some Serbs and Albanians that it will be good for them for NATO to leave. Albanians want their own Army to run their affairs, which what NATO has in mind as well, but Serbs think this will allow them to forcefully take Kosovo again. Given what I have learned recently from some middle level officer at KSF, Albanians may be closer to reality. Vuk Jeremic probably knows this too; that's why is actively pushing against the NATO troop reduction. Odd that he would do that given how Serbia considers them an occupation force. Don't you think so?
Michael, NATO/KFOR will be remembered as a success for stepping in early enough to prevent the total cleansing of a people. Their only disgrace is in not requiring an unconditional surrender.
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today, so where will ever be the benefit to anyone other than Serbia? All the things you claim Kosovo will never have, they could never have as a province of Serbia.
Small NATO will remain until Kosovo joins NATO, OR Kosovo army is capable of defending Kosovo borders from potential agressions.
Gone are those days where Albanians were orphans of Europe. We have loads of strong and worthy allies now, and with their help we ought to achieve that what we had b4- liberation from opression, peace and freedom of all in all Illyrian land.
"as for the NATO-troops... I´ve always said it: the ottomans were here for 500 years... "
The slavs have been (or were) for 1300 years!!! How's that for a comeback story?
To Zoran etc: It matter not what China and Russia will do: US /EU /NATO want to close shop so Serbia must do certain things if they ever want to see EU. The, Russia and China have no reason to do anything.
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
After helping establish a base for Islamic Jihad they now want to leave after 200 + Wahhabi mosques have been established and will producing "graduates."
I suspect KFOR and NATO will rush back in when the "graduates" start practicing their craft.
Some really funny comments from our Albanian friends today. We've got "Serbian aggression", "NATO member",and suddenly Albanians give a damn about cultural heritage that isn't theirs (read as "stuff we couldn't convince, or are still trying to convince, others that is ours). Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I highly doubt "Serbian aggression" is going to rear its ugly head in the near future, since Belgrade is headed by a government that's actually committed to European integration, as opposed to a ragtag group of people in suits in Pristina that is simply eager to take European money. I doubt Kosovo will be in NATO as some say since it can't even maintain control of its own soveriengty, let alone provide access to its leaders to travel wherever and whenever they please. And as for the little gaffe about respecting the heritage of Decani, I seem to recall some Neo-Illyrian attempting to launch a rocket or two at the monastery not too long ago. It's also sort of weird to see Italian soldiers guarding Decani and Pec today, just as they were protecting both monsteries during WWII when Albanians were sleeping with Nazis. Then there's the cute "Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries." Hmmm, I'm still waiting on a good explanation for what possessed the frenzied mob to destroy "other old Serbian monasteries" in Devic and Prizren.
I sincerely hope NATO doesn't leave because its leaders are only deluding themselves that this is a success story. But then again, they also think Bosnia is a success too.
Of course they should scale down! There is no more need for KFOR there!The Americans will keep Bondsteel and the rest will leave. NATO kan be back everywhere in that region within a few hours if something should happen.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
How can you say such things? Are you not ashamed to say this out loud when we have proof? We've all seen destroyed churches and monasteries with our own eyes.
We don't have to travel to Kosovo to see it. The pictures are there. We live in the modern times when we have access to media from all around the world.
Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I am sure you are a proud serb. Be that way and let the other judge who is being ridiculous.
Zoran,
What Serbia is offering Kosovo is to return to pre-Milosivic status with no change of heart of Serbia. Once the international community is out of the picture there is no guarantees. As you and so many here have often emphasized the Serbian people have a great level of patience to wait until that day.
There is a very wise saying 'Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me"
How could any reasonable person ever expect the people in Kosovo to return to "any" Serbian control?
The "young & handsome" as our great Silvio once nicknamed the new Nato secretary has only said that he hopes that Troops in 2013 will be home..he knows that the willing of majority of countries is to cut this costly operation at the same time he is aware that this is the only Nato operations on the field right now that has a meaning on the basis of the principles of the Alliance...he knows that we can leave Afghanistan in a mess without big regrets but no more in Europe and that is a dogma !!
So he will carefully watch what is coming out of Kosovo...But no hurry to leave !!
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today
(pss, 4 August 2009 13:49)
--
pss, Serbia is offering exactly what our ethnic Albanian citizens have today or will ever achieve. More than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self-rule.
What negotiations will achieve is to finally put an end to this status issue. It will bring peace and allow the province to finally prosper.
Without negotiations the temporary institutions will continue to vent their frustration on Serbia by the lack of independence, which is blocked. That is not progress!
It's time to accept reality instead of endlessly banging your head against a brick wall. It seems NATO has finally come to terms with that reality and are planning their withdrawal. When will our ethnic Albanian citizens?
Since there is so much rubbish in this thread so I will reply to only three of the most disillusionated posts here:
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
Yep, youre sure right there pardner! ;-) (note my smiley)
And we all know what happended to the Mujaheeden in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein who was the best allies of the US and NATO the middle east in the late 80:s to the early 90:s.
What happend to them? Please inform me!
Do you honestly belive that the same won't happen to UCK leaders in Pristina if they get to demanding?
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
"KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region."
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! Do you really belive that yourself?????
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
Greetings
Cheers
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
Mendo, obviously you only know the rich fat cats in Pristina.
Will the average Albanian be able to wait 10-70 years to get money and food to feed their children when the EU money welfare has dried out? All while Serbia is blooming and preventing Kosovo from entering international organisations such as EU and UN.
Nationalistic speach like this doesn't keep anyone satisfied for a long time, sooner than you expect some Albanians will return to the negotiation table... It doesn't have to be this rich generation of fat cats in Pristina, it can be their children in 10 years...
NATO may be downsizing but it ain't going nowhere. i do believe in the inner goodness of (most) people, and i do often pray to god (you can say "allah" if you wish) but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
What has Albania being in NATO got do do with Kosovo?
Albania is a separate country and frankly only got into NATO because they needed more suckers to send to Afghanistan.
but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 5 August 2009 07:16)
Roberto,
After the corruption scandals with SAAB jets, any trust in NATO one would ever have should be gone. I don't trust anyone. Much better approach to a neighborhood where everyone is a villain.
Reading this thread that like all others turns a tug of war between serbians and a
kosovars when the subject is Kosovo the central point becomes clear for anyone who are not
emotionally involved with the question: The serbs continue orphans of Balkania and this
geopolitical misconception do they unable of see the future.
What is Balkania? Balkania is just a country like France, Spain, England, there
francs, spainishs and normands conviced the others ethinic groups of the existence of a
modern nation like a real umbrella for alls so France, Spain and England could be born. The
Balkans stood under the control of the austrian empire so the modern nation Balkania could
not be born. After the WWI serbians was very nationalistics for understand Balkania and this
state went to limbo, after the WWII the idea was build like a south slavian country anchored
by serbia and croatia this represent by Tito, a croatian ruling serbs was not sufficient for
put live on this surpassed geopolitical entity, like the former URSS the ethinic groups
already had created a national identity and a new european multiethinic modern state was not
more possible. The milosevic´s concept of impose by force this idea was a disaster, serbs
was turned the enemy not the amalgam, the balkanic ethinic groups claimed by theirs own
states and the only way possible was a sort of new nations each protecting its own cultural
heritage. Luckly the nowaday economy turns small states more easy to succeed then the big
ones the service economy dont claim by natural resources for succeed but only by education
and comercial routes, HongKong and Taiwan and several asian tigers demonstrate this concept,
the ethinic groups spread out on the national spaces is a strong factor for building
comercial links but unfortunately is being used for national aspirations, there are no more
room for empires worldwide and balkans definitively not.
Jeremic on his trip to UN said that Serbia could continue trying the european path and the serbian empire or just the retake of kosovo like no linked subjects, this is the real geopolitical serbian misconcept, the serbian elite is traped on nacionalistic will and dont see the region as whole, the next war will be a economic war and Serbia putting Kosovo on corner will not only damage his neighbor but the entire region and Serbia itself, Kosovo is no long more a serbian province trying keep open the milosevic´s door for the future is unwise the result will be the serbian isolation, if and when the balkans perceive that can live without serbia serbia will lost the future, the real war now is the draft of the future economic map of the region, insist on "kosovo province" is a lose-lose situation for use a serbian logic, Serbia needs free his people of the past and recognize Kosovo the is the zero mark for the european path.
I have always said that maintaining the status quo is a very costly excercise for the occupiers, however it costs next to nothing to keep Kosovo's independence irreversibly blocked. While the US is the largest funds contributor to the UN, Russia and China continue to keep independence blocked. The US continues to spend billions on achieving nothing, both in NATO troop deployments and funding the UN.
Kosovo is going nowhere until our ethnic Albanian citizens are drawn to the negotiating table. They should realise by now that independence is not achievable and the most they will ever get is more than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self rule.
So instead of coming here day in day out throwing mud at each other, lets start to work on efforts to bring peace, prosperity and harmony to our province. That will be one step forward we can all make.
I think you missed the "NATO is reducing its presence in Kosovo due to achievements in the field"
Its also not good for the image of Kosovo to have foreign troops guard its borders and maintain its security.
I fully agree that NATO should reduce its presence and only maintain sufficient troops for fast reaction, in case the Serbs get any of their bright ideas again.
The NATO trained and equipped KSF and a small NATO contingent should be enough to deterr any Serb aggresion.
There will never be any negociations. Our distrust of Serbian politics and polititians is a lot deeper thay may think, and there are historical facts on which our distrust is based.
Rasmussen said, adding: "By the end of my term, I want to see KFOR reduced to just a small reaction force, or out altogether."
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
Small NATO will remain until Kosovo joins NATO, OR Kosovo army is capable of defending Kosovo borders from potential agressions.
Gone are those days where Albanians were orphans of Europe. We have loads of strong and worthy allies now, and with their help we ought to achieve that what we had b4- liberation from opression, peace and freedom of all in all Illyrian land.
Have you ever actualy seen the Decani monastery after 1999?
If someone truly wanted to destory that monastery, then the 3 Italian soldiers and a fence who guard it, are not going to stop them.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
What you fail to understand, is that places like the Decani monastery carry some significance for the Kosovar Albanians too. Back in Yugoslav days the area use to be a famous holiday retreat for Kosovar Albanians. Many of our parents met there.
2004 was an outburst of violence that was not particuarly aimed at the Serbian churches or Serbian civilans. Instead, it was a result of the poor administration of Kosova by UNMIK and the terrible economic conditions in which a majority of the population was living.
Under 1244 the UN was obligated to initiate serious negotiations on the Kosova status three years after the adoption of 1244. The delays provoked the violence.
For anyone who was on the streets of Prishtina on March 2004 (like myself) the buring UN cars were a clear indication of the cause of the violence.
Nick, NATO is needed to protect Serbian cultural heritage like the monasteries in Decani, Pec, and Gracanica from the savages that tried to detstroy them in 2004... That is a sad reality.
Mr.Rassmusen: By the end of your term I'm sure Kosova offically will be a NATO member. Thank you for training Kosova Security Force we appreciate that. KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region.
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
'"Kosovo is a success story and it is therefore possible to reduce our presence there," according to Rasmussen.'
NO, Mr. Rasmussen. Kosovo is a DISASTER and you know that only too well.
You talk in glowing terms of KFOR's performance in KiM. Utter rubbish!
You mention what you would like to achieve by the end of your term. Gobbleegook!
I'm telling you that you and your cohorts must sit down and create a job plan which must include the methodology you will use in making amends to Serbia for all atrocities committed by KFOR/NATO forces against Serbs, not only in Kosovo i Metohija, but also in the rest of Serbia.
KFOR will go down in history as having been an International Disgrace.
This means in practice that NATO is tired of protecting the corrupt Albanian leadership in Pristina and only interested in keeping Camp Bondsteel.
I guess NATO won't protest to much if Vojske Srbije are going in to protect the north and enclaves from Albanian terror. Probably the same lame protests as when South Ossetia and Abkhazia became independent last year.
Nato will hopefully be occupied with losing the war in Afghanistan for several more years. All while proudly inviting new poor eastern european countries to do the fighting for them.
"as for the NATO-troops... I´ve always said it: the ottomans were here for 500 years... "
The slavs have been (or were) for 1300 years!!! How's that for a comeback story?
To Zoran etc: It matter not what China and Russia will do: US /EU /NATO want to close shop so Serbia must do certain things if they ever want to see EU. The, Russia and China have no reason to do anything.
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
After helping establish a base for Islamic Jihad they now want to leave after 200 + Wahhabi mosques have been established and will producing "graduates."
I suspect KFOR and NATO will rush back in when the "graduates" start practicing their craft.
Michael, NATO/KFOR will be remembered as a success for stepping in early enough to prevent the total cleansing of a people. Their only disgrace is in not requiring an unconditional surrender.
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today, so where will ever be the benefit to anyone other than Serbia? All the things you claim Kosovo will never have, they could never have as a province of Serbia.
Some really funny comments from our Albanian friends today. We've got "Serbian aggression", "NATO member",and suddenly Albanians give a damn about cultural heritage that isn't theirs (read as "stuff we couldn't convince, or are still trying to convince, others that is ours). Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I highly doubt "Serbian aggression" is going to rear its ugly head in the near future, since Belgrade is headed by a government that's actually committed to European integration, as opposed to a ragtag group of people in suits in Pristina that is simply eager to take European money. I doubt Kosovo will be in NATO as some say since it can't even maintain control of its own soveriengty, let alone provide access to its leaders to travel wherever and whenever they please. And as for the little gaffe about respecting the heritage of Decani, I seem to recall some Neo-Illyrian attempting to launch a rocket or two at the monastery not too long ago. It's also sort of weird to see Italian soldiers guarding Decani and Pec today, just as they were protecting both monsteries during WWII when Albanians were sleeping with Nazis. Then there's the cute "Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries." Hmmm, I'm still waiting on a good explanation for what possessed the frenzied mob to destroy "other old Serbian monasteries" in Devic and Prizren.
I sincerely hope NATO doesn't leave because its leaders are only deluding themselves that this is a success story. But then again, they also think Bosnia is a success too.
Yes, Nick, I have been to Decani multiple times and there numerous Italian soldiers nearby to prevent any attacks on the church. How dare you claim that the riots were not directed against Serbs??? You are being intellectually dishonest if you tell me that the multiple churches and monasteries that were attacked had nothing to do with anti-Serb hatred. Furthermore, these attacks on churches also happened before 2004, and after it.
Zoran, Ron, no negotiations will ever yield Kosovo more than they have today
(pss, 4 August 2009 13:49)
--
pss, Serbia is offering exactly what our ethnic Albanian citizens have today or will ever achieve. More than autonomy, less than independence with a high level of self-rule.
What negotiations will achieve is to finally put an end to this status issue. It will bring peace and allow the province to finally prosper.
Without negotiations the temporary institutions will continue to vent their frustration on Serbia by the lack of independence, which is blocked. That is not progress!
It's time to accept reality instead of endlessly banging your head against a brick wall. It seems NATO has finally come to terms with that reality and are planning their withdrawal. When will our ethnic Albanian citizens?
Suddenly the most backward group in southeastern Europe is more vital to the growth of Europe than all of Scandinavia. There's a difference between feeling proud and being ridiculous.
I am sure you are a proud serb. Be that way and let the other judge who is being ridiculous.
But that is not the point. Very few if any Kosovar Albanians are interested or willing to destroy that Monastery, or any of the other old Serbian monasteries.
How can you say such things? Are you not ashamed to say this out loud when we have proof? We've all seen destroyed churches and monasteries with our own eyes.
We don't have to travel to Kosovo to see it. The pictures are there. We live in the modern times when we have access to media from all around the world.
Well, I think there seems to be an agreement between some Serbs and Albanians that it will be good for them for NATO to leave. Albanians want their own Army to run their affairs, which what NATO has in mind as well, but Serbs think this will allow them to forcefully take Kosovo again. Given what I have learned recently from some middle level officer at KSF, Albanians may be closer to reality. Vuk Jeremic probably knows this too; that's why is actively pushing against the NATO troop reduction. Odd that he would do that given how Serbia considers them an occupation force. Don't you think so?
Since there is so much rubbish in this thread so I will reply to only three of the most disillusionated posts here:
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
Yep, youre sure right there pardner! ;-) (note my smiley)
And we all know what happended to the Mujaheeden in Afghanistan and Saddam Hussein who was the best allies of the US and NATO the middle east in the late 80:s to the early 90:s.
What happend to them? Please inform me!
Do you honestly belive that the same won't happen to UCK leaders in Pristina if they get to demanding?
(Nelli_Canada, 4 August 2009 12:06)
"KSF are already on their way to be the best in the region."
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! Do you really belive that yourself?????
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
I'm not sure if Kosovo would be a member of NATO in 4 years or 15 but it does not matter, what I'm sure is that we will never sit down and talk to the Serbian state about the future of Kosovo and we don't care how long it takes to be a member of UN, EU and NATO. I can wait 10-70 years for that, even longer, and all the people I know they don't care either as long as we have nothing to do with the Serbians.
Greetings
Cheers
(Mendo, 4 August 2009 14:17)
Mendo, obviously you only know the rich fat cats in Pristina.
Will the average Albanian be able to wait 10-70 years to get money and food to feed their children when the EU money welfare has dried out? All while Serbia is blooming and preventing Kosovo from entering international organisations such as EU and UN.
Nationalistic speach like this doesn't keep anyone satisfied for a long time, sooner than you expect some Albanians will return to the negotiation table... It doesn't have to be this rich generation of fat cats in Pristina, it can be their children in 10 years...
Of course they should scale down! There is no more need for KFOR there!The Americans will keep Bondsteel and the rest will leave. NATO kan be back everywhere in that region within a few hours if something should happen.
Zoran,
What Serbia is offering Kosovo is to return to pre-Milosivic status with no change of heart of Serbia. Once the international community is out of the picture there is no guarantees. As you and so many here have often emphasized the Serbian people have a great level of patience to wait until that day.
There is a very wise saying 'Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me"
How could any reasonable person ever expect the people in Kosovo to return to "any" Serbian control?
As for the "Vojska Army," please. Who will dare to start another adventure, will it be Tadic? FYI: Albania is a NATO member, and the losing country get smaller.
(It's over, 4 August 2009 15:01)
What has Albania being in NATO got do do with Kosovo?
Albania is a separate country and frankly only got into NATO because they needed more suckers to send to Afghanistan.
The "young & handsome" as our great Silvio once nicknamed the new Nato secretary has only said that he hopes that Troops in 2013 will be home..he knows that the willing of majority of countries is to cut this costly operation at the same time he is aware that this is the only Nato operations on the field right now that has a meaning on the basis of the principles of the Alliance...he knows that we can leave Afghanistan in a mess without big regrets but no more in Europe and that is a dogma !!
So he will carefully watch what is coming out of Kosovo...But no hurry to leave !!
but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 5 August 2009 07:16)
Roberto,
After the corruption scandals with SAAB jets, any trust in NATO one would ever have should be gone. I don't trust anyone. Much better approach to a neighborhood where everyone is a villain.
NATO may be downsizing but it ain't going nowhere. i do believe in the inner goodness of (most) people, and i do often pray to god (you can say "allah" if you wish) but it is in NATO that i trust. esp.ly in that neighborhood. i'm from detroit -- in order to survive, you better know the neighborhood...
Reading this thread that like all others turns a tug of war between serbians and a
kosovars when the subject is Kosovo the central point becomes clear for anyone who are not
emotionally involved with the question: The serbs continue orphans of Balkania and this
geopolitical misconception do they unable of see the future.
What is Balkania? Balkania is just a country like France, Spain, England, there
francs, spainishs and normands conviced the others ethinic groups of the existence of a
modern nation like a real umbrella for alls so France, Spain and England could be born. The
Balkans stood under the control of the austrian empire so the modern nation Balkania could
not be born. After the WWI serbians was very nationalistics for understand Balkania and this
state went to limbo, after the WWII the idea was build like a south slavian country anchored
by serbia and croatia this represent by Tito, a croatian ruling serbs was not sufficient for
put live on this surpassed geopolitical entity, like the former URSS the ethinic groups
already had created a national identity and a new european multiethinic modern state was not
more possible. The milosevic´s concept of impose by force this idea was a disaster, serbs
was turned the enemy not the amalgam, the balkanic ethinic groups claimed by theirs own
states and the only way possible was a sort of new nations each protecting its own cultural
heritage. Luckly the nowaday economy turns small states more easy to succeed then the big
ones the service economy dont claim by natural resources for succeed but only by education
and comercial routes, HongKong and Taiwan and several asian tigers demonstrate this concept,
the ethinic groups spread out on the national spaces is a strong factor for building
comercial links but unfortunately is being used for national aspirations, there are no more
room for empires worldwide and balkans definitively not.
Jeremic on his trip to UN said that Serbia could continue trying the european path and the serbian empire or just the retake of kosovo like no linked subjects, this is the real geopolitical serbian misconcept, the serbian elite is traped on nacionalistic will and dont see the region as whole, the next war will be a economic war and Serbia putting Kosovo on corner will not only damage his neighbor but the entire region and Serbia itself, Kosovo is no long more a serbian province trying keep open the milosevic´s door for the future is unwise the result will be the serbian isolation, if and when the balkans perceive that can live without serbia serbia will lost the future, the real war now is the draft of the future economic map of the region, insist on "kosovo province" is a lose-lose situation for use a serbian logic, Serbia needs free his people of the past and recognize Kosovo the is the zero mark for the european path.
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