Ethnic Albanians push for "region" in south

Ex-terrorists who made terrorist actions against serbian state in 2000-2001 today wants their own region in serbian state?? I don't belive them.

The sad thing is that the KLA and events leading up to the Kosovo war, has made it very difficult for anyone to trust the intentions of the Albanian communities in the South of Serbia.

Even if they were genuinely just after better rights it is going to be very hard to convince Serbia that there is no plan to try and annex further territory.

Especially with people on here calling for them to declare independence.

There is a very strong Greek community near my home - would they also be entitled to declare independence?

It won't happen.

The last time they tried anything, they were taken down and disarmed by the Serbian Army (who were given permission by NATO to do so).

This time they will try and do the same, except under the guise of "Western standards and integration", when people can see for themselves that the Albanians do not have a clue of what this means (hence them being rejected the VISA regime, their candidate status probably to be rejected due to corrupt elections etc.).

There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway).

Ethnic Albanians need to push with 'region' offer initially, if this offer is not accepted then, they need to organize a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, joing Kosovo, or remain in Serbia.

There no more time to waste. Serbia is getting divided further anyways...it is not IF, but WHEN...

"Ethnic Albanians need to push with 'region' offer initially, if this offer is not accepted then, they need to organize a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, joing Kosovo, or remain in Serbia.

There no more time to waste. Serbia is getting divided further anyways...it is not IF, but WHEN...
(PRN, 3 August 2009 10:11) "

PRN,

By the same analogy, the K-Serbs should immediately organize "a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, be part of Serbia or "Kosova".

Actually "Kosova" is already de facto divided at the Ibar. It is not a question of "IF" or "WHEN", it already IS!

Well, for those that read the article you'll notice that these ethnic Albanians from this region of Serbia are seeking negotiations. They are talking to the Serbian government and that is a great step forward.

If they decided to sincerely integrate into Serbian institutions then perhaps they deserve some of their demands, so long as it's inline with our constitution. However, releasing suspected terrorists is a no goer.

Only negotiations will bring lasting peace and this is a good chance for Serbia to prove that we can live side by side with our ethnic Albanian citizens.

Let me just add that if these Albanians are seeking to destabilise this region then the Kosovo UDI has not brought peace but rather more instability to the region. It will be another slap on the face to those promoting this independence dream.

Just a reminder, Serbia has not lost Kosovo but only the right to rule our provincial ethnic Albanian citizens and we have offered them self-rule already, so this is a non-issue.

Lets all be a bit more mature about this and learn to tolerate each other. The world is not so black and white so negotiations will lead to peace.

We should be quiet and act "democratically".
They are now in a desperate situation.
Albanians are leaving this "region",I know this firsthand.
Thanks good the Serbs began acting smart for the first time,no diplomas from "kosova" are being accepted.
They are especially leaving Medvedja and Bujanovac and they have no support from western embassies.
Ragmi Mustafa wrote a letter to the US embassy moaning about "police brutality" and apparently got a foot in his behind,suddenly after that he changed his statement from being "oppressed" to being living in "democratic" Serbia hehehe...

To all Albanians and Albanian Supporters, youre master the USA and Nato said Kosovo was a unique case. Well my southern citizens that is how it will stay, if you try another terrorist movement to gain more land this time the west wont believe, and i am for definite they will not fight for you as they are too far stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As well as you if you do then it is only fair the Serbian enclaves and North Mitrovica become under the Serbian state as well as The Republic of Srpska :)

Boy can i not wait for Kostunica to come to power hehe

Ex-terrorists who made terrorist actions against serbian state in 2000-2001 today wants their own region in serbian state?? I don't belive them.
(Milan

I think it is voices who make up "clever" words as terrorist and criminals with out a single cell of evidence, who should be punished.
Defamation,libel,slander and vilification are all crimes that Serbia is preeching every day against Albanians, and all are agains the law wich makes up Int. law.

A state that only thrives on the "boogeyman" scare tactics, its not a state, but a lie.

I think the region would be a great idea as it would show unity in a way that is sain to be best represented at belgrade parlament.

"I think it is voices who make up "clever" words as terrorist and criminals with out a single cell of evidence, who should be punished. "
(Drink Water, 3 August 2009 11:25)
So - what word You have for peoples who killing police officers and mambers of local authorities?? I have one word - "terrorists". Similar name have Americans for Talibans in Afghanistan or Israelits for Hamas members. And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's.

This is what the USA/EU sponsored recognition of Kosovo has done!! Presevo Albanians wanting autonomy, then later onj independence! Next will come Krajina Serbs in Croatia, Repubilka Srpka in Bosnia, Croats in Bosnia, Hungarians in Serbia, Serbs in Kosovo etc all wanting autonomy then independence!!

What recognition of Kosovo has done and will do is cause chaos and regional instability that will inevitably lead to another Balkans War!!!

British police didn't go into detail about how they treated Real IRA terrorists. The same approach must be applied to Albanian terrorists.
Albanians leave the South, because their local government does nothing in the field of economy. That's why Albanians left Albania and moved to Serbia. Albanian mafia is powerful and corrupts economy.
All those claims about human rights are hypocritical. What violation of rights? Name at least one. Are they denied the same health care, access to education etc.?

This conflict has a political dimension and is designed to undermine stability in the region and is sponsored by outside sources.

first of all in Medveđa and Bujanovac the serbs are a majority so they could stop crying there, and in preshovo they are a majority but the albanian s are leaving that whole area so i dont understan how abot 55,000 albanians have a big say. i dont understand that and that is serbia anyway so your telling me the 8 million serbs in serbia are going to vote yes loool you must be joking.

“The declaration also calls for proportional representation of Albanians in state structures and organs, public institutions, "and especially in local and border police".

This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.
I know that many of you posters here think that, but I love to hear it one more time.

This is the beginning of what we all knew all along - the beginning of the greater albania.

When will the leaders of the nations that recognized this illegal action realize the grave mistake(s) they've made?

Keep on harboring terrorists...

"This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.
I know that many of you posters here think that, but I love to hear it one more time.
(village-bey, 3 August 2009 11:07) "

well, demographically it would be a tall order to seriously expect the less than 60,000 ehtinic Albanians left in Serbia outside of Kosovo to take on 6 to 7 million Serbs!

Can anyone answer village-bey's question loud and clear?
(miri, 3 August 2009 15:18)

there was a question in village-bey's comment? i only see that he assumes that serbs don't see albanians as a part of serbia and expects serbian posters to say so. ironically some serbian posters explicitely say the opposite and say that albanians are welcome as long as they are loyal to the serbian state (as well as comments trying to realistically estimate if albanians can push for more autonomy within serbia). meanwhile the loyalty of albanians to serbia is being questioned.

i am pretty sure that albanians are as loyal to serbia as serbs are loyal to kosovo. i also think that a movement comparable to the old civil rights movement in the usa would have been a much better solution for everyone. separatism doesn't inspire trust in the majority population and neither does an armed uprising. but then, is the political culture in the region mature enough for something like that? many of the comments here suggest otherwise, i'm afraid.

Serbia needs a rational regional policy to apply to the whole country for its better political and economic development, not one based ad hoc on communist anachronisms (Vojvodina) or the feudal ambitions of corrupt ethnic politicians (Presevo).

In any case, time is on Belgrade's side with regard to Presevo. In 5 years time, having watched "Kosova" sink into a black hole of economic failure and political isolation, the Valley Albanians will be begging to remain in Serbia.

Could you show me 2 non aligned links please? from ALL the world?
(Drink Water, 3 August 2009 18:38)
Sorry - my wrong - not all world - for Albanians they are "heroes" ;)

The United States special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard (1998): "I know a terrorist when I see one and these men are terrorists" and "'We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo. The UCK is, without any questions, a terrorist group"

U.S. State Department described UCK as a terrorist organization until 1998, same UK and France (they deleted UCK from list of terrorist organisations after US pressure).

MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base
- UCK is still described as terrorist group.

As like yesterday, if the issue focuses on Serbs in Kosovo, certain Albanians say enough is enough, follow our rules and be law abiding citizens of our "country". Transplant the same scenario to Presevo and the same people are calling for the greatest form of minority rights short of outright independence (and independence is certainly not taken off the table).

And again, the only one who's fair on this for minorities in both Kosovo Province and Presevo valley is village-bey. However, I would modify his arguments just slightly.

First, Albanians in Serbia Proper indeed need to be further integrated. There should be some degree of local autonomy to handle their own affairs, but there should also be some form of representation in Belgrade too. Serbia is an internationally recognized country and the Albanians need to realize Serbia is the country they live in. Kosovo on the other hand is an international protectorate with sovereignty being a point of view rather than a fact of law. Serbs there should be given either direct parallel links with the rest of Serbia or significant degrees of decentralization. But in the end, I agree with village-bey again in stating that it would be hypocritical to push for rights of minorities in one region while ignoring those of others.

Here you go Drink:
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=western_support_for_islamic_militancy_2124
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army
http://www.mail-archive.com/sin@antic.org/msg07511.html
There are a ton of links on any search site. Please stop playing ignorant, when THE WORLD KNOWS the us State Dept. had the KLA on their terrorist list. They removed them from that list to exploit them. See the link pertaining to Wesley Clark.

For a start Medveđa doesn't have an Albanian majority nor is it contiguous with Preševo, and Bujanovac.

Secondly these thre municipalities only have 1.2& of Serbia excluding Kosovo's population.

The local Albanian's still cannot provide any specific example of them being "suppressed".

They run the two municipalities they are a majority in, but this doesn't mean they merit any increase in power.

well, demographically it would be a tall order to seriously expect the less than 60,000 ehtinic Albanians left in Serbia outside of Kosovo to take on 6 to 7 million Serbs!
(lowe, 3 August 2009 13:49)

Don't jump the fence, this is about decentralization and local self-governing at the local level that Serbia has been preaching all along. Comparisons of numbers is non-sense. Here is an example: What chance have 6-7 million Serbs to take on 450 million Western Europeans?


To Kate: One would have thought that Kosova would have taught Serbia the crucial lesson that force doesn't solve anything. On the contrary it appears that there are some that still think the opposite, even at the dawn of this new century. Serbian politics has always been a paradox. At this time when it needs to show flexibility and understanding, to at least try to prove their side of the story before ICJ, Serbia continues to apply the same old tactics of fear and animosity towards its Albanian minority in these regions.

Can anyone answer village-bey's question loud and clear?

On 3 August 2009 13:34, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway)."

And I wonder what grounds you can up with for denying these people their wish for more regional/seperatist self-rule? I expect it will be something along the lines of "national unity" and "historic events" which probably means a lot to the people that believe in them, but means squat to people that oppose them.

But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--

There is no Milosevic anymore.

(Peter Sudyka, 3 August 2009 13:34)

Peter, please define the differences between the Milosevic regime and the one in power today in Serbia as honestly I cannot see any!!!!
It is not the person that should leave, it is the whole doctrine that need changing.
And the doctrine is still very much alive (if not more aggressive).
Peter, the only difference between this regime in Serbia and all the previous ones is simplified below:
- The existing regime cannot use the threat of war that the previous ones did.

That is the only difference between the two Peter.
Peter, if Kosovo is going ahead with the decentralisation process and if the Serbian minority in Kosovo will have a large number of regions where they will be a majority, why deny this to the others.
Or are you religiously preaching the infamous communist doctrine:
- What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine.
Peter, what would your siding be if the remaining Poles in Russian occupied territories (you know the regions I am referring about, and I know Poles that were forced out from there and their parents murdered) asked for their identity to be recognised?

When will ethnic groups living in Serbia stop agitating for their own states within the state? Kosovo being a case in point. When the US and European states and of course NATO stop trying to dismember Serbia further. This is really unbelievable. Wait until this starts in Britain and elsewhere where groups from a different cultural and ideological background insist on seceding from the state. The west should be helping Serbia, instead of which evil lobbyists are stirring the pot for their own interests and to the detriment of the nation state.

"But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 3 August 2009 15:47) "

The same goes for the Greenlanders when they eventually decide to secede from Denmark right? Even if this means Copenhagen losing over 99% of her land and sea territories, not to mention the huge amount of untapped mineral wealth underneath them.

And, oh yes, Denmark will then also be of little strategic use to Nato or EU. But democracy for the Greenlanders must override all these, however unpleasant and traumatic they may be for the Danes right?

Pure and simple provocation. Perhaps the Vietnamese, Chinese, Serbian, Croatian, Italian or Greek communities could declare an autonomous province in Australia too on the same basis.
Enough is enough, time to put a stop to this circus.

No need to push,just wait when serbia will be in EU,then evropean laws on minority rights will have to be implanted!

"I did read the Serbian government’s proposal’s for Kosovo and in my opinion they were even worse than Ahtisaari’s plan."

Yes - because Albanian minority of Serbia need nothing - but only "independence". Every serbian propositions was refused by Albanians. They want "independence" not from 1999 - but years before Kosovo war. In 80's they want to secede from Yugoslavia and join Albania.

If any minority in any world country will want to secede with arms in hands and start violation and terrorism on territory where this minority live - every country on Earth will send army and special police forces to this territory for stop violence and destroyed separatist groups. But only Serbia was punished by world for antiterrorist action on their own territory.

On 3 August 2009 12:46, kate wrote:

"There is a very strong Greek community near my home - would they also be entitled to declare independence?"

Yes, why not?
--

Jan Anderson, DK

Nothing, but what was wrong with the autonomy that Serbia offered as opposed to full-blown independence?

blero

Of course there is a huge difference between the Milosevic era and Tadic.

Milosevic took away all autonomy from Kosovo Albanians and sent in the JNA to crush the Albanians fighting for their autonomy back, kicking out hundreds of thousands of Albanians in the process and killing several thousand too.

Tadic offered Kosovo the highest autonomy in the world and has not resorted to anything but pure diplomacy with the Kosovo government regarding the independence movement.

Surely you can tell the difference between them?

Regarding the Poles in the ex-USSR states, to my knowledge, their rights are respected and the Poles are treated like any other minority, generally there are no major problems, therefore no reason to strive for anything more.

Belarus is the exception, but that is because they have a communist dictator in charge of the country who was frozen under ice for 50 years and still yearns for the Stalin years, where Poles were treated like complete dirt.

Serbs have to give what they want because the Albanians should not be underestimated anymore. They have extremely strong connections in US government now. Its better to give them something because otherwise Serbia might loose that region completely.

This is the work of NGOs who are actually GOs.Albanians stole Kosovo now they have the nerve to push in building the highway from Kosmet to Tirana and try to soften up South Srbija.Albanians need to start giving to Serbs in Kosovo before they start asking for rights.No ethnic group had more rights in the world than Albanians in Jugoslavia that is a fact.They had schools ,news papers,and Albanian was taught in school.But no they always want more.The winds of this mini-imperialism are not blowing as strong as in 1999 and how can you push Serbs into NATO ghettos while asking for more,more,more.Do not be fooled with "we just want our rights" excuse they want the land plain and simple.Srbija is smart to have built more military bases in the south as the Kosovo-Albanian question is not close to being resolved.
There were no legit negotiations Serbs keep losing more and more and more.When this is all said and done Kosovo will be under Serb rule and Western Macedonia and North Greece will be a DMZ.America intentionally creates situations that are impossible to resolve and come to a true peace.Look at Israel peace deal after peace deal and nothing has changed that is not accident.Zbignew Brzinski said so in the grand chessboard book go read it.Remember "standards before status" and Res 1244? Yeah well Serbs and human rights is a two way street Albanians are persecuting Serbs in Kosovo while crying about Serbian rule in Presevo.I hope I don't get edited by b92 because who is fighting for Serbian rights ? All we hear is ethnic albanian this and ethnic albanian that.I promise you Albanians are just the puppets the ones pulling the strings are in Washington DC ,Brussels and Berlin

>>The declaration also calls for proportional representation of Albanians in state structures and organs, public institutions, "and especially in local and border police".

This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.>>

i very much agree w/ village bey and miri in their assessment of the situation. proportional representation and decentralization are common tools in a democratic society; we all are well aware of the past and present injustices against albanians and other minorities inside serbia (not kosovo, it is a separate country, duh!)and the need for the "democratic" govt, as it claims to be, to address these issues.

instead the albanians inside serbia are all labeled as terrorists, and thus we see the usual police approach, which further alienates the "citizens" and on and on.

guess what? the govt. is there to represent the people living in the country -- ALL of the people. so long as it continues to ignore and belittle, or worse, a group of those people, they will never win the people's loyalty, nor should they.

in fact, it is not that different fr kosovo/a. there the govt needs to work to bring in ALL of its citizens, as I have reminded many times. those attempts have been and are being made, with less than perfect success. on the other hand there are obvious outside forces (fr guess where) keeping this cooperation from taking place.

we hear over and over again that milosevic is dead, stop talking about milosevic!! he may be dead but his mentality lives on, and we see it here, every single day.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

"Don't jump the fence, this is about decentralization and local self-governing at the local level that Serbia has been preaching all along. Comparisons of numbers is non-sense. Here is an example: What chance have 6-7 million Serbs to take on 450 million Western Europeans?

(miri, 3 August 2009 15:18)"

Nobody is jumping any fence but yourself. Your 450 million Europeans, despite their impressive numbers, do not physically control the Presovo region. That region is under the for, control of Belgrade on behalf of the "mere" 6-7 million Serbs.

"never listed on the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations list,"

(Amer, 4 August 2009 01:38)

" Last year, while State Department officials labeled the KLA a terrorist organization,"... (The Washington Times 4 May 1999)

"In 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA -- formally known as
the Ushtria Clirimtare e Kosoves, or UCK -- as an international
terrorist organization, saying it had bankrolled its operations with
proceeds from the international heroin trade and from loans from known
terrorists like Osama bin Laden." (The Washington Times, 3 May 1999)

So?? American press in 1999 was stupid??

"terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security"

Amer - is israeli Kahane terrorist group attack Americans or american national security or not?? Kahane is listed by US Departament of State as terrorist group.

The Greek representative of Interpol reported in 1998 that Kosovo's
ethnic Albanians were "the primary sources of supply for cocaine and
heroin in that country." Intelligence officials in France said in a
recent report the KLA was among several organizations in southern Europe
that had built a vast drug-smuggling network. France's Geopolitical
Observatory of Drugs said in the report that the KLA was a key player in
the rapidly expanding drugs-for-arms business and helped transport $2
billion worth of drugs annually into Western Europe. German drug agents
have estimated that $1.5 billion in drug profits is laundered annually
by Kosovo smugglers, through as many as 200 private banks or
currency-exchange offices. They noted in a recent report that ethnic
Albanians had established one of the most prominent drug smuggling
organizations in Europe. Jane's Intelligence Review estimated in March
that drug sales could have netted the KLA profits in the "high tens of
millions of dollars." The highly regarded British-based journal noted at
the time that the KLA had rearmed itself for a spring offensive with the
aid of drug money, along with donations from Albanians in Western Europe
and the United States.

So - not only terrorist - but drug criminals too. Like today Taliban.

Dear Mathew,
Great to see you here my friend,
I’ll tell you one thing, you could give Mr Jeremic a run for his money.
I do not accept your assumption that Serbs are currently underrepresented. Parliament seat allocation that you take as example cannot use pre-war population figures for literally projections.
If we are working under proportional representation we need to take into the account population growth of Albanians during the last two decades. General trend in Kosova points out to Albanian moderate growth while Serbs population figures remain stable, (which by the way is pretty much in line with the general Serb trend) Emigration of Albanians for political reasons during this period is much greater than those Serbs who leave Kosova during the same period. Albanians boycotted 1991 census but I’m happy to work with pre-war figures that project the percentage of the Serbs in Kosova before 1998.
Official Yugoslav statistical corrections and projections, with the help of previous census results (1948-1981):
1,956,196 Total population
1,596,072 Albanians (81.6%)
194,190 Serbs (9.9%)
66,189 Muslims (3.4%)
45,760 Romas (2.34%)
20,365 Montenegrins (1.04%)
10,445 Turks (0.53%)
8,062 Croats (Janjevci) (0.41)
3,457 Yugoslavs (0.18%)
11,656 others (0.6%)
It is widely accepted that this census underestimated the number of the Albanians.
Ivzi Islami estimates the percentage of Serbs prior to war to 6.3% of overall population.
Current parliament has 120 seats based on proportional representation.
Twenty seats have been set aside for non-Albanian communities -- ten for the Serb community and ten for other communities.

The new assembly rules also include various qualified majority voting rules. Certain legal changes would require not only a majority in the Assembly but also a majority of Assembly members who represent non-majority communities.

In essence, any major alterations require everyone's assent.

The new cabinet must include a Serb minister and a minister from another non-majority community.
Any future changes to the constitution require approval from two-thirds of assembly members as well as two-thirds of the members who represent non-majority communities.

The same rules apply to the justice system. Kosovo's Supreme Court must have at least 15% of judges representing non-majority communities.

Where non-majority communities form at least 10% of the
population, the post of vice-president of the Municipal Assembly goes to a representative of non-majority communities. As is the case with the Ohrid Framework Agreement, Kosovo's public service at all levels must
reflect the multiethnic nature of Kosovo society.

Much depends on the Albanian majority's political will and enthusiasm for remaining committed to Ahtisaari's vision. But it is also up to the non-Albanian communities to make the
most of the powers granted them. Should they fail to do so, the blame could not be placed on the Albanians.
This is clearly an asymmetrical arrangement in favour of non-Albanians.
Valley Albanians are only asking for their actual percentage.
It will be unfair to deny them that basic democratic right.

I congratulate the Albanian leader for this modest proposal. Serbia has three ways on dealing with non-Serbs: force (we know how that worked,) let them go or invest to keep them in the fold. Repression doesn't work.

How much capital investments have the Albanians regions seen compared to Serbian ones? We know the answer. Now Serbia MUST and will created a new region so they can take out loans and invest on their own. I also congratulate EU and USA for supporting this, they know what decentralization means.

So - what word You have for peoples who killing police officers and mambers of local authorities?? I have one word - "terrorists". Similar name have Americans for Talibans in Afghanistan or Israelits for Hamas members. And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's.
(Milan

In my opinion the serbian radicals would love to split the albanian community into two. they propobly want to support the radical elements within Presevo, this way they can justify "extra" "masked blackwater" types to run free around kids, and kustunica.

It is Serbia's radicals who would profit from not allowing this. And destabilisation is the outcome of ones goals than they are the terrorists.

"And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's"

Could you show me 2 non aligned links please? from ALL the world?

Bolivia just offered more autonomy for their indigenous population in the country. Serbia should take this as an example and do the same for their indigenous population.

“If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation… (village-bey, 3 August 2009 11:07)”

My dear friend Village-bey, the Ahtisaari Plan calls for 10 seats (out of 120) in the assembly to be set aside for Serbs. The Serbian population before ethnic cleansing was at 10%, so they should be entitled to 12 seats actually.

I see your statement made often by various people, so I just wanted to comment on it, because it does not seem to be technically correct to me. Serbs appear to be under-represented if anything.

That being said, I think this could be a wonderful opportunity for the Serbian government to show the Kosovar-Albanian population what “More than Autonomy – Less than Independence” would look like.

Why not structure it in such a way that shows the Albanian population what their lives could be like living in Serbia? Why not make it a “Heaven on Earth” for them? It’s small and could be an excellent experiment in race relations.

Personally, I’d officially modify the Serbian constitution to change the Kosovo region’s borders to include Presevo, but not the North, and then implement “More than Autonomy – Less than Independence” in Presevo which Serbia still controls. Let the poor International Community figure out how to deal with that border change, ha ha.

Why not set a positive precedent for how minorities should be treated? Why not give to the Albanians what we Serbs would like for our own people in countries such as Croatia or Slovenia?

I also think Diploma’s from Pristina should be recognized. There’s no reason not to encourage Albanians to seek employment and educated positions in Serbia’s economy. The more Serbia can involve its Albanian population into the economy, the better chance they’ll feel comfortable in a united Country. If Albanians were to have a much brighter future under Serbia than Albania, then they might support remaining within Serbia. Let’s build a good life for them here that they wouldn’t want to change.

As far as War Crimes go, I do think Albanians who committed serious ones should see justice. I’m not convinced the International Community is capable of dishing out justice to non-Serbs in an even handed manner. Nor do I think they can provide adequate safe guards for “protected witnesses”. If the International Community can show it’s capable of handling such situations, I would support them, but as of yet, I have not seen it.

That being said, we need some sort of Amnesty for regular folks who happened to defend their people, on both sides. I’m guessing the vast majority of UCK (and JNA) were not criminals, we need a way of distinguishing between the two.

Unfortunately, there have been some terrorist activities in the area of Presevo. However, the best obvious solution is to get the local Albanian population involved in identifying the people carrying out these activities. Why not ask for help? If the Albanian population were to get involved in resolving this, it would go far for improving race relations.

I understand many Serbians might feel this is some kind of trick in order to “steal” Presevo from Serbia. It does have many similarities to what happened in Kosovo. However, that being said, we must take a different approach to the situation than we did in the past and try to find a solution that helps our goals in Kosovo and for our people in every country they find themselves.

“Thanks good the Serbs began acting smart for the first time,no diplomas from "kosova" are being accepted.”
(CG, 3 August 2009 13:50)
It seems there is a good reason why the aforementioned Diplomas are not accepted…
http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=332&NrSection=1&NrArticle=20742

“Parliament seat allocation that you take as example cannot use pre-war population figures for literally projections… Emigration of Albanians for political reasons during this period is much greater than those Serbs who leave Kosova during the same period. (village-bey, 4 August 2009 12:58)”

I understand the issues with the pre-war census and recognize there may be some issues with it.

As far as “political reasons” go, my understanding is approximately 800,000 Albanians were forced to leave for “political reasons”, the majority of which have returned. My best guess would be those that did not return, did not return for economic reasons (better life in Western countries), not because it wasn’t politically safe for them to return.

Human Rights Watch puts the number of Serbs cleansed from Kosovo at 200,000. Which is 10% of the population as is.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/03/18/kosovoserbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence

The refugees should be counted and represented regardless of the fact that they have not returned, because in reality it really isn’t safe for them to return. I realize some of these people were originally refugees from Croatia or Bosnia, but I’m still fairly confident that once you count the refugees that the Serbian population is greater than the 8.3% of seats reserved for Serbs. I still don’t see how any of the minorities are “over represented”. Ethnic cleansing by any side should not be rewarded, nor should the rights of refugees be diluted in any way for any reason.

However, all that being said, I’m not a big fan of putting those kind of hard percentages as requirements and you raise some very valid points. I think it only breeds misunderstanding and resentment. Kosovo does have issues with minority rights (as does Serbia) but I’m not so sure this is the best approach. I do agree that whatever approach we take apply to all the countries in the region, not just Kosovo. Nearly every Balkan nation has issues with minorities.

“Much depends on the Albanian majority's political will and enthusiasm for remaining committed to Ahtisaari's vision. But it is also up to the non-Albanian communities to make the most of the powers granted them. Should they fail to do so, the blame could not be placed on the Albanians.”

I do not feel the Serbs should be punished for failing to accept Albanian rule at this time. Albanians should be considerate of this considering how much they boycotted Serbian institutions in the past and the fact that Kosovo’s status in reality has not been finalized.

Presevo Valley appears to have a population of 35,000. Serbia has a population of 7.3 million (without Kosovo). So Presevo makes up .005% of the population, I believe Serbia has 250 seats, so they would get a little over 1 seat. I have no problem with this.

In addition, I do believe Serbia should represent the Albanian population of Kosovo in the government. So I’d be comfortable with granting the Albanians something like 40 seats in any Federal Government. This is the real issue no one will talk about.

I did read the Serbian government’s proposal’s for Kosovo and in my opinion they were even worse than Ahtisaari’s plan.

You got to understand, to someone like me, portions of Kosovo are so important, its worth any sacrifice.

“I’ll tell you one thing, you could give Mr Jeremic a run for his money.”

I actually think Vuk is doing a perfect job internationally, he’s my favorite Serbian politician. We just need someone like him to deal with the Albanian population on a local level in a real and substantial way.

It appears that Serbs don't wish to live under Albanian rule and neither do Albanians under Serbian rule. The exchange of territories is the only sensible act that would jumpstart the negotiations. Under this exchange Serbs could get as much as 15 % of Kosovo territory, and Kosovo could get less than 2% of South Serbia territory. I think this is a very good deal for those who wish to achieve an everlasting peace. But it won't stand well with those Serbs who still dream of Greater Serbia and with those Albanians who still believe in Illyrian fairy tale.

comment 31 Morales. Albanians in Serbia are NOT Indigenous to that region.

Relax and be cool in Presevo dear Albanians! Very soon you can get a foot in the door in the EU. If you are really enterprising, you can use your address in Serbia as a launch pad for your extended family in Kosovo. Think of all the great things a bright young Albanian with a solid primary school education can achieve in the EU!

For some of you who use the word "Terrorism incessantly" Here are some leaders who used terrorist tactics in their battles for change, George Washington, Tito and his partisans, Castro, Mao, Sadam Hussein, Hitler, Enver Hocha, Milosevic, Early KLA, to name only few who happened to have legitimised themselves in this unfair world. The word "Terrorism, doesn’t stop at a single man with a dynamite belt.

"There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway)."

And I wonder what grounds you can up with for denying these people their wish for more regional/seperatist self-rule? I expect it will be something along the lines of "national unity" and "historic events" which probably means a lot to the people that believe in them, but means squat to people that oppose them.

But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 3 August 2009 15:47)

If everyone gets to self govern themselves just because they want it, it would be total chaos, WWIII would probably ernupt, in the 70s the Albanians said they want independence because of poor life standars, in the 90's it was the Serbian oppresion now they say that thay have waited the last 100 yrs. for free Kosovo and next step is ethnic Albania.There is no other people in the world doing what the Albanians are doing in Europe!

Please it's so unfair even to dabate about this issue.
They are asking only for basic human rights, oh which serbs are not use to handle them well!

svojgazda:

Undoubtedly there were people in the U.S. government who described the KLA's activities as those of terrorists at one time, assuming that any form of non-state violence could be classified as "terrorism," but the organization was
never listed on the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, probably because listing there requires that "[t]he organization’s terrorist activity or terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security (national defense, foreign relations, or the economic interests) of the United States." http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

The links you provided led to examples of people saying that the KLA had been removed from the list in 1998, but since it didn't appear on the 1997 list ( http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/terrorist_orgs_list.html ), it's not clear what this "removal" is supposed to
refer to. Maybe just that U.S. government officials just stopped using the word "terrorist"?

The MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base (TKB) is sometimes
referred to as "still listing" the KLA as a terrorist organization, but it contained "historical information on terrorism dating back to 1968" and info, once added, would be corrected but not simply removed retroactively. (MIPT's funding for the Terrorist Knowledge Base ran out in 2008 and it appears to be inactive.)

In any event, this negative view of the organization obviously
changed in time for NATO to support it in 1999.

"If and when Greenland will become a fully independent country is (as far as I am an concerned, and according to polls 2/3 of the rest of the south Danish people) up to the Greenland people themselves.

(Jan Andersen, DK, 4 August 2009 23:10)"

Good. Lets hope not only do you Danes really respect their independence decision, that the Yankees will too ... notwithstandng the valuable military bases there should the Greenlanders demand their closure.

Good on the Albanians, the Serbs from Serbia have sold Kosovo and now it's time for the Albanians to steal another chunk of Serbia.
You didn't care about the Kosovo-Serbs by electing Tadic & Co and now it's payback time!

On 4 August 2009 03:14, lowe asked:

"The same goes for the Greenlanders when they eventually decide to secede from Denmark right? Even if this means Copenhagen losing over 99% of her land and sea territories, not to mention the huge amount of untapped mineral wealth underneath them.

And, oh yes, Denmark will then also be of little strategic use to Nato or EU. But democracy for the Greenlanders must override all these, however unpleasant and traumatic they may be for the Danes right?"

Of course.

Just a few months ago, the Inuits (Greenland people) voted with a great majority to take over control and responsibilities of many of the functions that has so far rested with the (south) Danish government.

If and when Greenland will become a fully independent country is (as far as I am an concerned, and according to polls 2/3 of the rest of the south Danish people) up to the Greenland people themselves.

For more info, please follow these links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7749427.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-big-question-is-greenland-ready-for-independence-and-what-would-it-mean-for-its-people-1036735.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenlandic_self-government_referendum,_2008
--

Hi again Mathew,
Let’s talk turkey, (that would infuriate my friend Leonidas). My calculations were based on pre-war data, so let’s exclude from analysis any suggestion on numbers of Albanians forced to leave and returned on 1998-2001 period (so leave out 800.000 figure).
It is absolutely right that you include on your calculation the Serbs waiting to return, no one is disputing that. I was only pointing out that to the shortcomings of previous census that excluded the numbers of Kosovar Albanians forced to leave on 1990-1998 period. estimates only for Switzerland point towards an approximate 150,000 figure. Primarily draft evaders, those who left for political reasons, deserters from Croatian/Bosnian wars, etc but I do except that the majority of those including myself will not return. So let’s not complicate this with any more variables.
While 200,000 constitute 10% of a 2.000.000, Kosova’s population is now grown to an estimated 2.400.000 which will make 200.000 figure close to 8.3 % of overall population.
If we were further analyse the 200.000 of Serbs, I would suggest that it contains a large percentage of displaced Roma and internally displaced Serbs who have moved from south lets say to Mitrovica.
All in all Ahtiisaari plan is over generous to Serbs and other minorities. It is a good plan with firm constitutional safeguard that are not likely to change without Serbs approval.
As for my comparison to Mr Jeremic, it was meant as a compliment. I too think he is a brilliant diplomat.
All the best my friend

Ethnic Albanians need to push with 'region' offer initially, if this offer is not accepted then, they need to organize a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, joing Kosovo, or remain in Serbia.

There no more time to waste. Serbia is getting divided further anyways...it is not IF, but WHEN...

“The declaration also calls for proportional representation of Albanians in state structures and organs, public institutions, "and especially in local and border police".

This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.
I know that many of you posters here think that, but I love to hear it one more time.

Ex-terrorists who made terrorist actions against serbian state in 2000-2001 today wants their own region in serbian state?? I don't belive them.
(Milan

I think it is voices who make up "clever" words as terrorist and criminals with out a single cell of evidence, who should be punished.
Defamation,libel,slander and vilification are all crimes that Serbia is preeching every day against Albanians, and all are agains the law wich makes up Int. law.

A state that only thrives on the "boogeyman" scare tactics, its not a state, but a lie.

I think the region would be a great idea as it would show unity in a way that is sain to be best represented at belgrade parlament.

Ex-terrorists who made terrorist actions against serbian state in 2000-2001 today wants their own region in serbian state?? I don't belive them.

It won't happen.

The last time they tried anything, they were taken down and disarmed by the Serbian Army (who were given permission by NATO to do so).

This time they will try and do the same, except under the guise of "Western standards and integration", when people can see for themselves that the Albanians do not have a clue of what this means (hence them being rejected the VISA regime, their candidate status probably to be rejected due to corrupt elections etc.).

There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway).

There is no Milosevic anymore.

(Peter Sudyka, 3 August 2009 13:34)

Peter, please define the differences between the Milosevic regime and the one in power today in Serbia as honestly I cannot see any!!!!
It is not the person that should leave, it is the whole doctrine that need changing.
And the doctrine is still very much alive (if not more aggressive).
Peter, the only difference between this regime in Serbia and all the previous ones is simplified below:
- The existing regime cannot use the threat of war that the previous ones did.

That is the only difference between the two Peter.
Peter, if Kosovo is going ahead with the decentralisation process and if the Serbian minority in Kosovo will have a large number of regions where they will be a majority, why deny this to the others.
Or are you religiously preaching the infamous communist doctrine:
- What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine.
Peter, what would your siding be if the remaining Poles in Russian occupied territories (you know the regions I am referring about, and I know Poles that were forced out from there and their parents murdered) asked for their identity to be recognised?

No need to push,just wait when serbia will be in EU,then evropean laws on minority rights will have to be implanted!

well, demographically it would be a tall order to seriously expect the less than 60,000 ehtinic Albanians left in Serbia outside of Kosovo to take on 6 to 7 million Serbs!
(lowe, 3 August 2009 13:49)

Don't jump the fence, this is about decentralization and local self-governing at the local level that Serbia has been preaching all along. Comparisons of numbers is non-sense. Here is an example: What chance have 6-7 million Serbs to take on 450 million Western Europeans?


To Kate: One would have thought that Kosova would have taught Serbia the crucial lesson that force doesn't solve anything. On the contrary it appears that there are some that still think the opposite, even at the dawn of this new century. Serbian politics has always been a paradox. At this time when it needs to show flexibility and understanding, to at least try to prove their side of the story before ICJ, Serbia continues to apply the same old tactics of fear and animosity towards its Albanian minority in these regions.

Can anyone answer village-bey's question loud and clear?

On 3 August 2009 12:46, kate wrote:

"There is a very strong Greek community near my home - would they also be entitled to declare independence?"

Yes, why not?
--

The sad thing is that the KLA and events leading up to the Kosovo war, has made it very difficult for anyone to trust the intentions of the Albanian communities in the South of Serbia.

Even if they were genuinely just after better rights it is going to be very hard to convince Serbia that there is no plan to try and annex further territory.

Especially with people on here calling for them to declare independence.

There is a very strong Greek community near my home - would they also be entitled to declare independence?

On 3 August 2009 13:34, Peter Sudyka wrote:

"There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway)."

And I wonder what grounds you can up with for denying these people their wish for more regional/seperatist self-rule? I expect it will be something along the lines of "national unity" and "historic events" which probably means a lot to the people that believe in them, but means squat to people that oppose them.

But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--

So - what word You have for peoples who killing police officers and mambers of local authorities?? I have one word - "terrorists". Similar name have Americans for Talibans in Afghanistan or Israelits for Hamas members. And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's.
(Milan

In my opinion the serbian radicals would love to split the albanian community into two. they propobly want to support the radical elements within Presevo, this way they can justify "extra" "masked blackwater" types to run free around kids, and kustunica.

It is Serbia's radicals who would profit from not allowing this. And destabilisation is the outcome of ones goals than they are the terrorists.

"And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's"

Could you show me 2 non aligned links please? from ALL the world?

"Ethnic Albanians need to push with 'region' offer initially, if this offer is not accepted then, they need to organize a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, joing Kosovo, or remain in Serbia.

There no more time to waste. Serbia is getting divided further anyways...it is not IF, but WHEN...
(PRN, 3 August 2009 10:11) "

PRN,

By the same analogy, the K-Serbs should immediately organize "a democratic referendum of highest standards to ask the local population whether they
want to become independent, be part of Serbia or "Kosova".

Actually "Kosova" is already de facto divided at the Ibar. It is not a question of "IF" or "WHEN", it already IS!

"This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.
I know that many of you posters here think that, but I love to hear it one more time.
(village-bey, 3 August 2009 11:07) "

well, demographically it would be a tall order to seriously expect the less than 60,000 ehtinic Albanians left in Serbia outside of Kosovo to take on 6 to 7 million Serbs!

>>The declaration also calls for proportional representation of Albanians in state structures and organs, public institutions, "and especially in local and border police".

This is nothing but simple fight for equality and emancipation. Albanians are only asking for their equal share of representation and responsibility. If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation.
The only argument that can prohibit divulging power to locals Albanians would be that they are not perceived as equals to a Serbian.>>

i very much agree w/ village bey and miri in their assessment of the situation. proportional representation and decentralization are common tools in a democratic society; we all are well aware of the past and present injustices against albanians and other minorities inside serbia (not kosovo, it is a separate country, duh!)and the need for the "democratic" govt, as it claims to be, to address these issues.

instead the albanians inside serbia are all labeled as terrorists, and thus we see the usual police approach, which further alienates the "citizens" and on and on.

guess what? the govt. is there to represent the people living in the country -- ALL of the people. so long as it continues to ignore and belittle, or worse, a group of those people, they will never win the people's loyalty, nor should they.

in fact, it is not that different fr kosovo/a. there the govt needs to work to bring in ALL of its citizens, as I have reminded many times. those attempts have been and are being made, with less than perfect success. on the other hand there are obvious outside forces (fr guess where) keeping this cooperation from taking place.

we hear over and over again that milosevic is dead, stop talking about milosevic!! he may be dead but his mentality lives on, and we see it here, every single day.

thank you.

roberto
frisco

I congratulate the Albanian leader for this modest proposal. Serbia has three ways on dealing with non-Serbs: force (we know how that worked,) let them go or invest to keep them in the fold. Repression doesn't work.

How much capital investments have the Albanians regions seen compared to Serbian ones? We know the answer. Now Serbia MUST and will created a new region so they can take out loans and invest on their own. I also congratulate EU and USA for supporting this, they know what decentralization means.

To all Albanians and Albanian Supporters, youre master the USA and Nato said Kosovo was a unique case. Well my southern citizens that is how it will stay, if you try another terrorist movement to gain more land this time the west wont believe, and i am for definite they will not fight for you as they are too far stretched in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As well as you if you do then it is only fair the Serbian enclaves and North Mitrovica become under the Serbian state as well as The Republic of Srpska :)

Boy can i not wait for Kostunica to come to power hehe

We should be quiet and act "democratically".
They are now in a desperate situation.
Albanians are leaving this "region",I know this firsthand.
Thanks good the Serbs began acting smart for the first time,no diplomas from "kosova" are being accepted.
They are especially leaving Medvedja and Bujanovac and they have no support from western embassies.
Ragmi Mustafa wrote a letter to the US embassy moaning about "police brutality" and apparently got a foot in his behind,suddenly after that he changed his statement from being "oppressed" to being living in "democratic" Serbia hehehe...

British police didn't go into detail about how they treated Real IRA terrorists. The same approach must be applied to Albanian terrorists.
Albanians leave the South, because their local government does nothing in the field of economy. That's why Albanians left Albania and moved to Serbia. Albanian mafia is powerful and corrupts economy.
All those claims about human rights are hypocritical. What violation of rights? Name at least one. Are they denied the same health care, access to education etc.?

This conflict has a political dimension and is designed to undermine stability in the region and is sponsored by outside sources.

Bolivia just offered more autonomy for their indigenous population in the country. Serbia should take this as an example and do the same for their indigenous population.

This is the beginning of what we all knew all along - the beginning of the greater albania.

When will the leaders of the nations that recognized this illegal action realize the grave mistake(s) they've made?

Keep on harboring terrorists...

This is what the USA/EU sponsored recognition of Kosovo has done!! Presevo Albanians wanting autonomy, then later onj independence! Next will come Krajina Serbs in Croatia, Repubilka Srpka in Bosnia, Croats in Bosnia, Hungarians in Serbia, Serbs in Kosovo etc all wanting autonomy then independence!!

What recognition of Kosovo has done and will do is cause chaos and regional instability that will inevitably lead to another Balkans War!!!

Well, for those that read the article you'll notice that these ethnic Albanians from this region of Serbia are seeking negotiations. They are talking to the Serbian government and that is a great step forward.

If they decided to sincerely integrate into Serbian institutions then perhaps they deserve some of their demands, so long as it's inline with our constitution. However, releasing suspected terrorists is a no goer.

Only negotiations will bring lasting peace and this is a good chance for Serbia to prove that we can live side by side with our ethnic Albanian citizens.

Let me just add that if these Albanians are seeking to destabilise this region then the Kosovo UDI has not brought peace but rather more instability to the region. It will be another slap on the face to those promoting this independence dream.

Just a reminder, Serbia has not lost Kosovo but only the right to rule our provincial ethnic Albanian citizens and we have offered them self-rule already, so this is a non-issue.

Lets all be a bit more mature about this and learn to tolerate each other. The world is not so black and white so negotiations will lead to peace.

"I think it is voices who make up "clever" words as terrorist and criminals with out a single cell of evidence, who should be punished. "
(Drink Water, 3 August 2009 11:25)
So - what word You have for peoples who killing police officers and mambers of local authorities?? I have one word - "terrorists". Similar name have Americans for Talibans in Afghanistan or Israelits for Hamas members. And same name had Americans and all world for UCK members in 90's.

For some of you who use the word "Terrorism incessantly" Here are some leaders who used terrorist tactics in their battles for change, George Washington, Tito and his partisans, Castro, Mao, Sadam Hussein, Hitler, Enver Hocha, Milosevic, Early KLA, to name only few who happened to have legitimised themselves in this unfair world. The word "Terrorism, doesn’t stop at a single man with a dynamite belt.

Serbia needs a rational regional policy to apply to the whole country for its better political and economic development, not one based ad hoc on communist anachronisms (Vojvodina) or the feudal ambitions of corrupt ethnic politicians (Presevo).

In any case, time is on Belgrade's side with regard to Presevo. In 5 years time, having watched "Kosova" sink into a black hole of economic failure and political isolation, the Valley Albanians will be begging to remain in Serbia.

first of all in Medveđa and Bujanovac the serbs are a majority so they could stop crying there, and in preshovo they are a majority but the albanian s are leaving that whole area so i dont understan how abot 55,000 albanians have a big say. i dont understand that and that is serbia anyway so your telling me the 8 million serbs in serbia are going to vote yes loool you must be joking.

Good on the Albanians, the Serbs from Serbia have sold Kosovo and now it's time for the Albanians to steal another chunk of Serbia.
You didn't care about the Kosovo-Serbs by electing Tadic & Co and now it's payback time!

Serbs have to give what they want because the Albanians should not be underestimated anymore. They have extremely strong connections in US government now. Its better to give them something because otherwise Serbia might loose that region completely.

Please it's so unfair even to dabate about this issue.
They are asking only for basic human rights, oh which serbs are not use to handle them well!

For a start Medveđa doesn't have an Albanian majority nor is it contiguous with Preševo, and Bujanovac.

Secondly these thre municipalities only have 1.2& of Serbia excluding Kosovo's population.

The local Albanian's still cannot provide any specific example of them being "suppressed".

They run the two municipalities they are a majority in, but this doesn't mean they merit any increase in power.

It appears that Serbs don't wish to live under Albanian rule and neither do Albanians under Serbian rule. The exchange of territories is the only sensible act that would jumpstart the negotiations. Under this exchange Serbs could get as much as 15 % of Kosovo territory, and Kosovo could get less than 2% of South Serbia territory. I think this is a very good deal for those who wish to achieve an everlasting peace. But it won't stand well with those Serbs who still dream of Greater Serbia and with those Albanians who still believe in Illyrian fairy tale.

When will ethnic groups living in Serbia stop agitating for their own states within the state? Kosovo being a case in point. When the US and European states and of course NATO stop trying to dismember Serbia further. This is really unbelievable. Wait until this starts in Britain and elsewhere where groups from a different cultural and ideological background insist on seceding from the state. The west should be helping Serbia, instead of which evil lobbyists are stirring the pot for their own interests and to the detriment of the nation state.

Could you show me 2 non aligned links please? from ALL the world?
(Drink Water, 3 August 2009 18:38)
Sorry - my wrong - not all world - for Albanians they are "heroes" ;)

The United States special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard (1998): "I know a terrorist when I see one and these men are terrorists" and "'We condemn very strongly terrorist actions in Kosovo. The UCK is, without any questions, a terrorist group"

U.S. State Department described UCK as a terrorist organization until 1998, same UK and France (they deleted UCK from list of terrorist organisations after US pressure).

MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base
- UCK is still described as terrorist group.

Dear Mathew,
Great to see you here my friend,
I’ll tell you one thing, you could give Mr Jeremic a run for his money.
I do not accept your assumption that Serbs are currently underrepresented. Parliament seat allocation that you take as example cannot use pre-war population figures for literally projections.
If we are working under proportional representation we need to take into the account population growth of Albanians during the last two decades. General trend in Kosova points out to Albanian moderate growth while Serbs population figures remain stable, (which by the way is pretty much in line with the general Serb trend) Emigration of Albanians for political reasons during this period is much greater than those Serbs who leave Kosova during the same period. Albanians boycotted 1991 census but I’m happy to work with pre-war figures that project the percentage of the Serbs in Kosova before 1998.
Official Yugoslav statistical corrections and projections, with the help of previous census results (1948-1981):
1,956,196 Total population
1,596,072 Albanians (81.6%)
194,190 Serbs (9.9%)
66,189 Muslims (3.4%)
45,760 Romas (2.34%)
20,365 Montenegrins (1.04%)
10,445 Turks (0.53%)
8,062 Croats (Janjevci) (0.41)
3,457 Yugoslavs (0.18%)
11,656 others (0.6%)
It is widely accepted that this census underestimated the number of the Albanians.
Ivzi Islami estimates the percentage of Serbs prior to war to 6.3% of overall population.
Current parliament has 120 seats based on proportional representation.
Twenty seats have been set aside for non-Albanian communities -- ten for the Serb community and ten for other communities.

The new assembly rules also include various qualified majority voting rules. Certain legal changes would require not only a majority in the Assembly but also a majority of Assembly members who represent non-majority communities.

In essence, any major alterations require everyone's assent.

The new cabinet must include a Serb minister and a minister from another non-majority community.
Any future changes to the constitution require approval from two-thirds of assembly members as well as two-thirds of the members who represent non-majority communities.

The same rules apply to the justice system. Kosovo's Supreme Court must have at least 15% of judges representing non-majority communities.

Where non-majority communities form at least 10% of the
population, the post of vice-president of the Municipal Assembly goes to a representative of non-majority communities. As is the case with the Ohrid Framework Agreement, Kosovo's public service at all levels must
reflect the multiethnic nature of Kosovo society.

Much depends on the Albanian majority's political will and enthusiasm for remaining committed to Ahtisaari's vision. But it is also up to the non-Albanian communities to make the
most of the powers granted them. Should they fail to do so, the blame could not be placed on the Albanians.
This is clearly an asymmetrical arrangement in favour of non-Albanians.
Valley Albanians are only asking for their actual percentage.
It will be unfair to deny them that basic democratic right.

As like yesterday, if the issue focuses on Serbs in Kosovo, certain Albanians say enough is enough, follow our rules and be law abiding citizens of our "country". Transplant the same scenario to Presevo and the same people are calling for the greatest form of minority rights short of outright independence (and independence is certainly not taken off the table).

And again, the only one who's fair on this for minorities in both Kosovo Province and Presevo valley is village-bey. However, I would modify his arguments just slightly.

First, Albanians in Serbia Proper indeed need to be further integrated. There should be some degree of local autonomy to handle their own affairs, but there should also be some form of representation in Belgrade too. Serbia is an internationally recognized country and the Albanians need to realize Serbia is the country they live in. Kosovo on the other hand is an international protectorate with sovereignty being a point of view rather than a fact of law. Serbs there should be given either direct parallel links with the rest of Serbia or significant degrees of decentralization. But in the end, I agree with village-bey again in stating that it would be hypocritical to push for rights of minorities in one region while ignoring those of others.

Here you go Drink:
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=western_support_for_islamic_militancy_2124
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army
http://www.mail-archive.com/sin@antic.org/msg07511.html
There are a ton of links on any search site. Please stop playing ignorant, when THE WORLD KNOWS the us State Dept. had the KLA on their terrorist list. They removed them from that list to exploit them. See the link pertaining to Wesley Clark.

svojgazda:

Undoubtedly there were people in the U.S. government who described the KLA's activities as those of terrorists at one time, assuming that any form of non-state violence could be classified as "terrorism," but the organization was
never listed on the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, probably because listing there requires that "[t]he organization’s terrorist activity or terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security (national defense, foreign relations, or the economic interests) of the United States." http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

The links you provided led to examples of people saying that the KLA had been removed from the list in 1998, but since it didn't appear on the 1997 list ( http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/terrorist_orgs_list.html ), it's not clear what this "removal" is supposed to
refer to. Maybe just that U.S. government officials just stopped using the word "terrorist"?

The MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base (TKB) is sometimes
referred to as "still listing" the KLA as a terrorist organization, but it contained "historical information on terrorism dating back to 1968" and info, once added, would be corrected but not simply removed retroactively. (MIPT's funding for the Terrorist Knowledge Base ran out in 2008 and it appears to be inactive.)

In any event, this negative view of the organization obviously
changed in time for NATO to support it in 1999.

“Thanks good the Serbs began acting smart for the first time,no diplomas from "kosova" are being accepted.”
(CG, 3 August 2009 13:50)
It seems there is a good reason why the aforementioned Diplomas are not accepted…
http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=332&NrSection=1&NrArticle=20742

"But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 3 August 2009 15:47) "

The same goes for the Greenlanders when they eventually decide to secede from Denmark right? Even if this means Copenhagen losing over 99% of her land and sea territories, not to mention the huge amount of untapped mineral wealth underneath them.

And, oh yes, Denmark will then also be of little strategic use to Nato or EU. But democracy for the Greenlanders must override all these, however unpleasant and traumatic they may be for the Danes right?

"I did read the Serbian government’s proposal’s for Kosovo and in my opinion they were even worse than Ahtisaari’s plan."

Yes - because Albanian minority of Serbia need nothing - but only "independence". Every serbian propositions was refused by Albanians. They want "independence" not from 1999 - but years before Kosovo war. In 80's they want to secede from Yugoslavia and join Albania.

If any minority in any world country will want to secede with arms in hands and start violation and terrorism on territory where this minority live - every country on Earth will send army and special police forces to this territory for stop violence and destroyed separatist groups. But only Serbia was punished by world for antiterrorist action on their own territory.

“If Kosovar Serbs get more representation than their actual numbers, I cannot see the logic in denying Albanians the bare requirement in democratisation and decentralisation… (village-bey, 3 August 2009 11:07)”

My dear friend Village-bey, the Ahtisaari Plan calls for 10 seats (out of 120) in the assembly to be set aside for Serbs. The Serbian population before ethnic cleansing was at 10%, so they should be entitled to 12 seats actually.

I see your statement made often by various people, so I just wanted to comment on it, because it does not seem to be technically correct to me. Serbs appear to be under-represented if anything.

That being said, I think this could be a wonderful opportunity for the Serbian government to show the Kosovar-Albanian population what “More than Autonomy – Less than Independence” would look like.

Why not structure it in such a way that shows the Albanian population what their lives could be like living in Serbia? Why not make it a “Heaven on Earth” for them? It’s small and could be an excellent experiment in race relations.

Personally, I’d officially modify the Serbian constitution to change the Kosovo region’s borders to include Presevo, but not the North, and then implement “More than Autonomy – Less than Independence” in Presevo which Serbia still controls. Let the poor International Community figure out how to deal with that border change, ha ha.

Why not set a positive precedent for how minorities should be treated? Why not give to the Albanians what we Serbs would like for our own people in countries such as Croatia or Slovenia?

I also think Diploma’s from Pristina should be recognized. There’s no reason not to encourage Albanians to seek employment and educated positions in Serbia’s economy. The more Serbia can involve its Albanian population into the economy, the better chance they’ll feel comfortable in a united Country. If Albanians were to have a much brighter future under Serbia than Albania, then they might support remaining within Serbia. Let’s build a good life for them here that they wouldn’t want to change.

As far as War Crimes go, I do think Albanians who committed serious ones should see justice. I’m not convinced the International Community is capable of dishing out justice to non-Serbs in an even handed manner. Nor do I think they can provide adequate safe guards for “protected witnesses”. If the International Community can show it’s capable of handling such situations, I would support them, but as of yet, I have not seen it.

That being said, we need some sort of Amnesty for regular folks who happened to defend their people, on both sides. I’m guessing the vast majority of UCK (and JNA) were not criminals, we need a way of distinguishing between the two.

Unfortunately, there have been some terrorist activities in the area of Presevo. However, the best obvious solution is to get the local Albanian population involved in identifying the people carrying out these activities. Why not ask for help? If the Albanian population were to get involved in resolving this, it would go far for improving race relations.

I understand many Serbians might feel this is some kind of trick in order to “steal” Presevo from Serbia. It does have many similarities to what happened in Kosovo. However, that being said, we must take a different approach to the situation than we did in the past and try to find a solution that helps our goals in Kosovo and for our people in every country they find themselves.

Relax and be cool in Presevo dear Albanians! Very soon you can get a foot in the door in the EU. If you are really enterprising, you can use your address in Serbia as a launch pad for your extended family in Kosovo. Think of all the great things a bright young Albanian with a solid primary school education can achieve in the EU!

"never listed on the State Department's Foreign Terrorist Organizations list,"

(Amer, 4 August 2009 01:38)

" Last year, while State Department officials labeled the KLA a terrorist organization,"... (The Washington Times 4 May 1999)

"In 1998, the U.S. State Department listed the KLA -- formally known as
the Ushtria Clirimtare e Kosoves, or UCK -- as an international
terrorist organization, saying it had bankrolled its operations with
proceeds from the international heroin trade and from loans from known
terrorists like Osama bin Laden." (The Washington Times, 3 May 1999)

So?? American press in 1999 was stupid??

"terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security"

Amer - is israeli Kahane terrorist group attack Americans or american national security or not?? Kahane is listed by US Departament of State as terrorist group.

The Greek representative of Interpol reported in 1998 that Kosovo's
ethnic Albanians were "the primary sources of supply for cocaine and
heroin in that country." Intelligence officials in France said in a
recent report the KLA was among several organizations in southern Europe
that had built a vast drug-smuggling network. France's Geopolitical
Observatory of Drugs said in the report that the KLA was a key player in
the rapidly expanding drugs-for-arms business and helped transport $2
billion worth of drugs annually into Western Europe. German drug agents
have estimated that $1.5 billion in drug profits is laundered annually
by Kosovo smugglers, through as many as 200 private banks or
currency-exchange offices. They noted in a recent report that ethnic
Albanians had established one of the most prominent drug smuggling
organizations in Europe. Jane's Intelligence Review estimated in March
that drug sales could have netted the KLA profits in the "high tens of
millions of dollars." The highly regarded British-based journal noted at
the time that the KLA had rearmed itself for a spring offensive with the
aid of drug money, along with donations from Albanians in Western Europe
and the United States.

So - not only terrorist - but drug criminals too. Like today Taliban.

On 4 August 2009 03:14, lowe asked:

"The same goes for the Greenlanders when they eventually decide to secede from Denmark right? Even if this means Copenhagen losing over 99% of her land and sea territories, not to mention the huge amount of untapped mineral wealth underneath them.

And, oh yes, Denmark will then also be of little strategic use to Nato or EU. But democracy for the Greenlanders must override all these, however unpleasant and traumatic they may be for the Danes right?"

Of course.

Just a few months ago, the Inuits (Greenland people) voted with a great majority to take over control and responsibilities of many of the functions that has so far rested with the (south) Danish government.

If and when Greenland will become a fully independent country is (as far as I am an concerned, and according to polls 2/3 of the rest of the south Danish people) up to the Greenland people themselves.

For more info, please follow these links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7749427.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-big-question-is-greenland-ready-for-independence-and-what-would-it-mean-for-its-people-1036735.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenlandic_self-government_referendum,_2008
--

This is the work of NGOs who are actually GOs.Albanians stole Kosovo now they have the nerve to push in building the highway from Kosmet to Tirana and try to soften up South Srbija.Albanians need to start giving to Serbs in Kosovo before they start asking for rights.No ethnic group had more rights in the world than Albanians in Jugoslavia that is a fact.They had schools ,news papers,and Albanian was taught in school.But no they always want more.The winds of this mini-imperialism are not blowing as strong as in 1999 and how can you push Serbs into NATO ghettos while asking for more,more,more.Do not be fooled with "we just want our rights" excuse they want the land plain and simple.Srbija is smart to have built more military bases in the south as the Kosovo-Albanian question is not close to being resolved.
There were no legit negotiations Serbs keep losing more and more and more.When this is all said and done Kosovo will be under Serb rule and Western Macedonia and North Greece will be a DMZ.America intentionally creates situations that are impossible to resolve and come to a true peace.Look at Israel peace deal after peace deal and nothing has changed that is not accident.Zbignew Brzinski said so in the grand chessboard book go read it.Remember "standards before status" and Res 1244? Yeah well Serbs and human rights is a two way street Albanians are persecuting Serbs in Kosovo while crying about Serbian rule in Presevo.I hope I don't get edited by b92 because who is fighting for Serbian rights ? All we hear is ethnic albanian this and ethnic albanian that.I promise you Albanians are just the puppets the ones pulling the strings are in Washington DC ,Brussels and Berlin

Hi again Mathew,
Let’s talk turkey, (that would infuriate my friend Leonidas). My calculations were based on pre-war data, so let’s exclude from analysis any suggestion on numbers of Albanians forced to leave and returned on 1998-2001 period (so leave out 800.000 figure).
It is absolutely right that you include on your calculation the Serbs waiting to return, no one is disputing that. I was only pointing out that to the shortcomings of previous census that excluded the numbers of Kosovar Albanians forced to leave on 1990-1998 period. estimates only for Switzerland point towards an approximate 150,000 figure. Primarily draft evaders, those who left for political reasons, deserters from Croatian/Bosnian wars, etc but I do except that the majority of those including myself will not return. So let’s not complicate this with any more variables.
While 200,000 constitute 10% of a 2.000.000, Kosova’s population is now grown to an estimated 2.400.000 which will make 200.000 figure close to 8.3 % of overall population.
If we were further analyse the 200.000 of Serbs, I would suggest that it contains a large percentage of displaced Roma and internally displaced Serbs who have moved from south lets say to Mitrovica.
All in all Ahtiisaari plan is over generous to Serbs and other minorities. It is a good plan with firm constitutional safeguard that are not likely to change without Serbs approval.
As for my comparison to Mr Jeremic, it was meant as a compliment. I too think he is a brilliant diplomat.
All the best my friend

Can anyone answer village-bey's question loud and clear?
(miri, 3 August 2009 15:18)

there was a question in village-bey's comment? i only see that he assumes that serbs don't see albanians as a part of serbia and expects serbian posters to say so. ironically some serbian posters explicitely say the opposite and say that albanians are welcome as long as they are loyal to the serbian state (as well as comments trying to realistically estimate if albanians can push for more autonomy within serbia). meanwhile the loyalty of albanians to serbia is being questioned.

i am pretty sure that albanians are as loyal to serbia as serbs are loyal to kosovo. i also think that a movement comparable to the old civil rights movement in the usa would have been a much better solution for everyone. separatism doesn't inspire trust in the majority population and neither does an armed uprising. but then, is the political culture in the region mature enough for something like that? many of the comments here suggest otherwise, i'm afraid.

Jan Anderson, DK

Nothing, but what was wrong with the autonomy that Serbia offered as opposed to full-blown independence?

blero

Of course there is a huge difference between the Milosevic era and Tadic.

Milosevic took away all autonomy from Kosovo Albanians and sent in the JNA to crush the Albanians fighting for their autonomy back, kicking out hundreds of thousands of Albanians in the process and killing several thousand too.

Tadic offered Kosovo the highest autonomy in the world and has not resorted to anything but pure diplomacy with the Kosovo government regarding the independence movement.

Surely you can tell the difference between them?

Regarding the Poles in the ex-USSR states, to my knowledge, their rights are respected and the Poles are treated like any other minority, generally there are no major problems, therefore no reason to strive for anything more.

Belarus is the exception, but that is because they have a communist dictator in charge of the country who was frozen under ice for 50 years and still yearns for the Stalin years, where Poles were treated like complete dirt.

comment 31 Morales. Albanians in Serbia are NOT Indigenous to that region.

"Don't jump the fence, this is about decentralization and local self-governing at the local level that Serbia has been preaching all along. Comparisons of numbers is non-sense. Here is an example: What chance have 6-7 million Serbs to take on 450 million Western Europeans?

(miri, 3 August 2009 15:18)"

Nobody is jumping any fence but yourself. Your 450 million Europeans, despite their impressive numbers, do not physically control the Presovo region. That region is under the for, control of Belgrade on behalf of the "mere" 6-7 million Serbs.

Pure and simple provocation. Perhaps the Vietnamese, Chinese, Serbian, Croatian, Italian or Greek communities could declare an autonomous province in Australia too on the same basis.
Enough is enough, time to put a stop to this circus.

"If and when Greenland will become a fully independent country is (as far as I am an concerned, and according to polls 2/3 of the rest of the south Danish people) up to the Greenland people themselves.

(Jan Andersen, DK, 4 August 2009 23:10)"

Good. Lets hope not only do you Danes really respect their independence decision, that the Yankees will too ... notwithstandng the valuable military bases there should the Greenlanders demand their closure.

"There is no Milosevic anymore, so I wonder what grounds these Albanians will use for their separatist ideas (they will probably be lies anyway)."

And I wonder what grounds you can up with for denying these people their wish for more regional/seperatist self-rule? I expect it will be something along the lines of "national unity" and "historic events" which probably means a lot to the people that believe in them, but means squat to people that oppose them.

But if you believe in peoples right to decide for themselves, then you must also grant them permission to carry out these decisions, even if the acts goes against your wishes.
--
(Jan Andersen, DK, 3 August 2009 15:47)

If everyone gets to self govern themselves just because they want it, it would be total chaos, WWIII would probably ernupt, in the 70s the Albanians said they want independence because of poor life standars, in the 90's it was the Serbian oppresion now they say that thay have waited the last 100 yrs. for free Kosovo and next step is ethnic Albania.There is no other people in the world doing what the Albanians are doing in Europe!

“Parliament seat allocation that you take as example cannot use pre-war population figures for literally projections… Emigration of Albanians for political reasons during this period is much greater than those Serbs who leave Kosova during the same period. (village-bey, 4 August 2009 12:58)”

I understand the issues with the pre-war census and recognize there may be some issues with it.

As far as “political reasons” go, my understanding is approximately 800,000 Albanians were forced to leave for “political reasons”, the majority of which have returned. My best guess would be those that did not return, did not return for economic reasons (better life in Western countries), not because it wasn’t politically safe for them to return.

Human Rights Watch puts the number of Serbs cleansed from Kosovo at 200,000. Which is 10% of the population as is.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/03/18/kosovoserbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence

The refugees should be counted and represented regardless of the fact that they have not returned, because in reality it really isn’t safe for them to return. I realize some of these people were originally refugees from Croatia or Bosnia, but I’m still fairly confident that once you count the refugees that the Serbian population is greater than the 8.3% of seats reserved for Serbs. I still don’t see how any of the minorities are “over represented”. Ethnic cleansing by any side should not be rewarded, nor should the rights of refugees be diluted in any way for any reason.

However, all that being said, I’m not a big fan of putting those kind of hard percentages as requirements and you raise some very valid points. I think it only breeds misunderstanding and resentment. Kosovo does have issues with minority rights (as does Serbia) but I’m not so sure this is the best approach. I do agree that whatever approach we take apply to all the countries in the region, not just Kosovo. Nearly every Balkan nation has issues with minorities.

“Much depends on the Albanian majority's political will and enthusiasm for remaining committed to Ahtisaari's vision. But it is also up to the non-Albanian communities to make the most of the powers granted them. Should they fail to do so, the blame could not be placed on the Albanians.”

I do not feel the Serbs should be punished for failing to accept Albanian rule at this time. Albanians should be considerate of this considering how much they boycotted Serbian institutions in the past and the fact that Kosovo’s status in reality has not been finalized.

Presevo Valley appears to have a population of 35,000. Serbia has a population of 7.3 million (without Kosovo). So Presevo makes up .005% of the population, I believe Serbia has 250 seats, so they would get a little over 1 seat. I have no problem with this.

In addition, I do believe Serbia should represent the Albanian population of Kosovo in the government. So I’d be comfortable with granting the Albanians something like 40 seats in any Federal Government. This is the real issue no one will talk about.

I did read the Serbian government’s proposal’s for Kosovo and in my opinion they were even worse than Ahtisaari’s plan.

You got to understand, to someone like me, portions of Kosovo are so important, its worth any sacrifice.

“I’ll tell you one thing, you could give Mr Jeremic a run for his money.”

I actually think Vuk is doing a perfect job internationally, he’s my favorite Serbian politician. We just need someone like him to deal with the Albanian population on a local level in a real and substantial way.