"Skopje policy preventing integrations"

The issue with the name is its connected to national identity and its derivatives ie language,culture etc.

Historically speaking, those people currently occupying FYROM are not Macedonians in the sense of relating to antiquity. They call themselves likewise after having occupied that area
eversince.

The problem arises when they begin to lay claim on historical realities, belonging to other people, as their own. Ancient Macedonians lived at a time before the Slavs joined the area. The name Macedonia is Greek in itself and not Slavic.No amount of Fyrom lies and propaganda can change that.

The lies that Fyromians have been taught, while growing up, have created an illusion of myth which in itself could lead to instability in the greater region.

Any nation state has the right to express itself, including FYROM, but that right must be tempered with huge doses of reality when the perceived right is based on lies and fiction.

It is this aspect of the name issue that is most troublesome for Greece, as left unchecked it will escalate to future problems.

The Fyromians can live in that area and do as they wish with their economy and own development.

But Good neighbouring relations will only be established when they leave other people's history alone and not claim it as their own.

The people that are living in Fyrom today, and call themselves "macedonians" have actually absolutely nothing to do with the word "macedonia" (whatever that means) at all. They are Slavs, speaking a bulgarian-serb mix language. The policy of the current far-right goverment of VMRO in Fyrom to try to "create" a new myth for their habbitants - by directly and falsely connecting these people with the ancient greek history, macedonia and Alexander the Great (the greatest Greek hero of all time) is totally useless. Pure balkan thinking by VMRO supposing that national identities are "created" rather than being standard from the beggining. Well, the far-right nationalist called Gruevski cannot "create" a national identity for his people - thinkning that he might avoid the albanian "swallow" by that in the future. The people that live in Fyrom today are SLAVS, and they have absolutely NOTHING to do with macedonia at all. This cannot be changed, applying cheap propaganda by a far-right goverment like the VMRO.

Macedonia has not many options. On one hand the Albanians insist the Albanian is declaired an officia, language over the entire territory of the country. On the other the Macedonian language is based on the literary tradition of Krchovski, Pejchinovich, Miladinovci, Cepenkov... all of whome insisted their language and culture was Bulgarian. Yet proclaiming Bulgarian roots is the biggest taboo in Macedonia. Former P.M. Ljubcho Georgievski did it and became the most disdained polititian. There are several reasons for that. During 1913-1941 all the Bulgarian inteligentsia was uprooted. During the communist period Macedonians splurged with their Yugoslav passports and felt superior to their Bulgarian relatives (I mean relatives in a veri literary sense, since most Macedonian families have relatives - descendents of those who fleed) Finally the Macedonian expreiment proved successful because it was based on the glourious mane Macedonia - the home of Alexander the Great, the scene of the New Testament acts of the disciples.
Macedonians who have grown up as such deserve a DIGNIFIED way out of the historical trap.

Leonidas, I have to laugh at your comment. Do you really think that todays Greeks are related to the ancient ones?

To comment 4 - Peter:

No Peter, today Greeks landed from a spaceship 170 years ago. At the same ship all ancient Greeks and their ancestors, boarded in when it left the first cargo down (modern Greeks) 170 years ago - and that's how they dissapeared.

Cheap propaganda - almost identical to the one applied by the official goverment of Fyrom. The Greek nation is one Peter. Of course it is the oldest and probably the most glorious in Europe, but it is still one.

How are slav-Macedonians supposed to forget Gotse Delchev and everything he stood for?

Sorry con;
The integrity of the Greek people is not at question here. Every time a constructive comment is mad about FYROM, all you Fyromanians can do is go on the attack because you know you have no argumentative evidence to the contrary. Greeks may not be pure but they can show some historical connection through the Roman & Byzantine periods to their claim unlike your descendants. therefore if they with historical recorded evidence may have difficulty, what makes you think you with no proof can make a connection to the ancient Macedonians. Having said this, wake up and smell the roses. You are Slavs with a Bulgaroserbian connection origin & identity. This is fact not fiction

To posters,please try to not include Albanians within the Fyrom-Slav political agenda when refering the name isue,it's not our fault because we live in the same country,we don't agree at all with their myths.

Ok Peter,
Your right!! The 12 million in Greece are, 'un-officially' not Greeks, although? the 2 million in FYROM which consists of Bulgarians, Albanians, Slavs, Vlahs, Serbians, Bosnians, Croatians, Turks, Romani are all descendants of Alexander The Great!!!

To Peter

Although no modern nation can
idendify fully with ancient people at least i can say that i speak their language,
have the same culture,names etc.This cannot be said about yourself and your people.

The truth of the matter peter is that i have given up on Fyrom.The VMRO goverment is petty,stupid,Bulgaro-nationalistic and engage in immature gesture politics.They have pushed Fyrom quite few years backwards.

Fyrom's dilemma is self-inflicted by appropriating a historical name belonging to others and is forcing Gruevski and his mantra to make territorial and cultural claims that are unfounded in order to comply with their propaganda.

Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to the total usurpation of a historical and geographical name that is the same as our largest province.The Balkan wars fought against the Bulgarians were in order to protect this territory and is within the living memory of all Greeks.

I would recommend to you and to your compatriots to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and visit some foreign public
libraries and i am sure you will find who you really are.

Macedonia is already in both the EU and NATO. Greece is a member of both and Macedonia is the region in Northern Greece. The Slavs of mostly Bulgarian descent who aren't even the majority in FYRO"M" have only helped Albanians take over "their" country.

Alexander the Great was not a hero. People should be ashamed of being his descendants, and not fight for his figure. He just destroyed and conquered, he built nothing. Hitler didn't idolize him for nothing. Every crazy man who has wanted to conquer the other peoples and nations has held Alexander the Great as a hero. I'm not saying that Greeks and Macedonians are crazy people who want to conquer other peoples and nations, but come on, choose better images to fight for.

Macedonia must be accepted with her original name no matter what greeks say or claim.
FYROM doesn't exist anymore because the word Yugoslavia is nowhere on the today's map.
Europe wake up and don't listen to Greek propaganda anymore. It's unbeliveable what an old Aegean Macedonian man once told me in Toronto. As a young teenager he was a victim of ethnic cleansing. Well done Greece.

Komnios: "They are Slavs, speaking a bulgarian-serb mix language."

There is no such a thing as a mixed Bulgarian- Serb language. Its grammar remains clearly Bulgarian - quite different from all Slav gramars - there is no inclanation, but there is an article. As for VMRO it was founded in 1893 as BMOVRK - Bulgarian Macedono-Odrin Internal Revolutionary Committee. Yet the fierce uprooting and persecution of the Bulgarian culture and the often inadequate actions of the Bulgarian state has created a Macedonian identity, that is very strong. And if for the first generations was quite enough the word Macedonian to be understood as "neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian" for the next generations that was not enough and they started to search their roots in... Ancient MAcedonia.

Leonidid,
How could you call the Gruevski government pro-Bulgarian? The resurection of the sense of Bulgarian origin that begun during Georgievski's rule has been cut from the stumb. Now the lunatic theory of the descend of the Macedonians from the ancient ones runs suprime. There would have been no second Balkan War. A compromice between Greece and Bulgaria was reachable, if it was not the Serbian decision to ignore the Serbo-Bulgarian treaty signed the previous year and to demand a common border with Greece, despite of the obvious fact that the two nations are not immediate neighbours. Todays Macedonism is a direct consequense of the presence of Serbia- Yugoslavia in the region.

PE,
What is your solution? Keep rejecting the presence of the Albanian element, just as the Serbs have done in the past, and hope that the problem will go away.
People deserve what's theirs and there is no other alternative. I don't think human development is taking steps back(as yet), as it did at the end of the Roman Empire.

First of all, for many macedonians it is easier to understand serbian than bulgarian. bulgarian and macedonian have similar words and are sometimes mutually intelligable as are ALL slavic languages in the Balkans.

Second of all, if the people of Macedonia are mixed between serbs, bulgars, romanians, turks, greeks, paionians, thracians, illyrians, macedonians and what have you, then what should we call our country? The country is undoubtedly part of the territory of Macedonia, from the time of annexation by alexander to the balkan wars. Anyone who tries to claim direct blood relation to a people who lived more than 2000 years ago is a fool -this goes for both sides- but the greeks turned the issue into a racial one when at first it was just a name. Even to this day Macedonians feel close to the other slavs of the Balkans, just we have a different name because even if we have different ethnic backgrounds the name Macedonia is something we all have in common, because if your great grandparents were Serbian or Bulgarian or Greek they were all fighting for Macedonia in one way or another, but the greeks couldnt handle that because they were scared the minorities in greek macedonia would cause trouble and now the whole issue is an impossible racial and ethnic argument that will never be solved, and i mean it, NEVER.....................

And BTW to the Albanians on here that live in Macedonia -which i doubt there are, you are all probably from Kosovo like the ones that started the war in Macedonia in 2001- take some pride in the place you live, you threaten to destroy your own home and your neighbors, if you hate macedonia so much why live there?

Macedonia has not many options. On one hand the Albanians insist the Albanian is declaired an officia, language over the entire territory of the country. On the other the Macedonian language is based on the literary tradition of Krchovski, Pejchinovich, Miladinovci, Cepenkov... all of whome insisted their language and culture was Bulgarian. Yet proclaiming Bulgarian roots is the biggest taboo in Macedonia. Former P.M. Ljubcho Georgievski did it and became the most disdained polititian. There are several reasons for that. During 1913-1941 all the Bulgarian inteligentsia was uprooted. During the communist period Macedonians splurged with their Yugoslav passports and felt superior to their Bulgarian relatives (I mean relatives in a veri literary sense, since most Macedonian families have relatives - descendents of those who fleed) Finally the Macedonian expreiment proved successful because it was based on the glourious mane Macedonia - the home of Alexander the Great, the scene of the New Testament acts of the disciples.
Macedonians who have grown up as such deserve a DIGNIFIED way out of the historical trap.

Macedonia must be accepted with her original name no matter what greeks say or claim.
FYROM doesn't exist anymore because the word Yugoslavia is nowhere on the today's map.
Europe wake up and don't listen to Greek propaganda anymore. It's unbeliveable what an old Aegean Macedonian man once told me in Toronto. As a young teenager he was a victim of ethnic cleansing. Well done Greece.

Leonidas, I have to laugh at your comment. Do you really think that todays Greeks are related to the ancient ones?

To comment 4 - Peter:

No Peter, today Greeks landed from a spaceship 170 years ago. At the same ship all ancient Greeks and their ancestors, boarded in when it left the first cargo down (modern Greeks) 170 years ago - and that's how they dissapeared.

Cheap propaganda - almost identical to the one applied by the official goverment of Fyrom. The Greek nation is one Peter. Of course it is the oldest and probably the most glorious in Europe, but it is still one.

The issue with the name is its connected to national identity and its derivatives ie language,culture etc.

Historically speaking, those people currently occupying FYROM are not Macedonians in the sense of relating to antiquity. They call themselves likewise after having occupied that area
eversince.

The problem arises when they begin to lay claim on historical realities, belonging to other people, as their own. Ancient Macedonians lived at a time before the Slavs joined the area. The name Macedonia is Greek in itself and not Slavic.No amount of Fyrom lies and propaganda can change that.

The lies that Fyromians have been taught, while growing up, have created an illusion of myth which in itself could lead to instability in the greater region.

Any nation state has the right to express itself, including FYROM, but that right must be tempered with huge doses of reality when the perceived right is based on lies and fiction.

It is this aspect of the name issue that is most troublesome for Greece, as left unchecked it will escalate to future problems.

The Fyromians can live in that area and do as they wish with their economy and own development.

But Good neighbouring relations will only be established when they leave other people's history alone and not claim it as their own.

Alexander the Great was not a hero. People should be ashamed of being his descendants, and not fight for his figure. He just destroyed and conquered, he built nothing. Hitler didn't idolize him for nothing. Every crazy man who has wanted to conquer the other peoples and nations has held Alexander the Great as a hero. I'm not saying that Greeks and Macedonians are crazy people who want to conquer other peoples and nations, but come on, choose better images to fight for.

To posters,please try to not include Albanians within the Fyrom-Slav political agenda when refering the name isue,it's not our fault because we live in the same country,we don't agree at all with their myths.

The people that are living in Fyrom today, and call themselves "macedonians" have actually absolutely nothing to do with the word "macedonia" (whatever that means) at all. They are Slavs, speaking a bulgarian-serb mix language. The policy of the current far-right goverment of VMRO in Fyrom to try to "create" a new myth for their habbitants - by directly and falsely connecting these people with the ancient greek history, macedonia and Alexander the Great (the greatest Greek hero of all time) is totally useless. Pure balkan thinking by VMRO supposing that national identities are "created" rather than being standard from the beggining. Well, the far-right nationalist called Gruevski cannot "create" a national identity for his people - thinkning that he might avoid the albanian "swallow" by that in the future. The people that live in Fyrom today are SLAVS, and they have absolutely NOTHING to do with macedonia at all. This cannot be changed, applying cheap propaganda by a far-right goverment like the VMRO.

Komnios: "They are Slavs, speaking a bulgarian-serb mix language."

There is no such a thing as a mixed Bulgarian- Serb language. Its grammar remains clearly Bulgarian - quite different from all Slav gramars - there is no inclanation, but there is an article. As for VMRO it was founded in 1893 as BMOVRK - Bulgarian Macedono-Odrin Internal Revolutionary Committee. Yet the fierce uprooting and persecution of the Bulgarian culture and the often inadequate actions of the Bulgarian state has created a Macedonian identity, that is very strong. And if for the first generations was quite enough the word Macedonian to be understood as "neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian" for the next generations that was not enough and they started to search their roots in... Ancient MAcedonia.

To Peter

Although no modern nation can
idendify fully with ancient people at least i can say that i speak their language,
have the same culture,names etc.This cannot be said about yourself and your people.

The truth of the matter peter is that i have given up on Fyrom.The VMRO goverment is petty,stupid,Bulgaro-nationalistic and engage in immature gesture politics.They have pushed Fyrom quite few years backwards.

Fyrom's dilemma is self-inflicted by appropriating a historical name belonging to others and is forcing Gruevski and his mantra to make territorial and cultural claims that are unfounded in order to comply with their propaganda.

Greek position is neither chauvinistic nor nationalistic.We simply object to the total usurpation of a historical and geographical name that is the same as our largest province.The Balkan wars fought against the Bulgarians were in order to protect this territory and is within the living memory of all Greeks.

I would recommend to you and to your compatriots to stop visiting sites like the poisonous Maknews and Mina and visit some foreign public
libraries and i am sure you will find who you really are.

Ok Peter,
Your right!! The 12 million in Greece are, 'un-officially' not Greeks, although? the 2 million in FYROM which consists of Bulgarians, Albanians, Slavs, Vlahs, Serbians, Bosnians, Croatians, Turks, Romani are all descendants of Alexander The Great!!!

How are slav-Macedonians supposed to forget Gotse Delchev and everything he stood for?

First of all, for many macedonians it is easier to understand serbian than bulgarian. bulgarian and macedonian have similar words and are sometimes mutually intelligable as are ALL slavic languages in the Balkans.

Second of all, if the people of Macedonia are mixed between serbs, bulgars, romanians, turks, greeks, paionians, thracians, illyrians, macedonians and what have you, then what should we call our country? The country is undoubtedly part of the territory of Macedonia, from the time of annexation by alexander to the balkan wars. Anyone who tries to claim direct blood relation to a people who lived more than 2000 years ago is a fool -this goes for both sides- but the greeks turned the issue into a racial one when at first it was just a name. Even to this day Macedonians feel close to the other slavs of the Balkans, just we have a different name because even if we have different ethnic backgrounds the name Macedonia is something we all have in common, because if your great grandparents were Serbian or Bulgarian or Greek they were all fighting for Macedonia in one way or another, but the greeks couldnt handle that because they were scared the minorities in greek macedonia would cause trouble and now the whole issue is an impossible racial and ethnic argument that will never be solved, and i mean it, NEVER.....................

And BTW to the Albanians on here that live in Macedonia -which i doubt there are, you are all probably from Kosovo like the ones that started the war in Macedonia in 2001- take some pride in the place you live, you threaten to destroy your own home and your neighbors, if you hate macedonia so much why live there?

Sorry con;
The integrity of the Greek people is not at question here. Every time a constructive comment is mad about FYROM, all you Fyromanians can do is go on the attack because you know you have no argumentative evidence to the contrary. Greeks may not be pure but they can show some historical connection through the Roman & Byzantine periods to their claim unlike your descendants. therefore if they with historical recorded evidence may have difficulty, what makes you think you with no proof can make a connection to the ancient Macedonians. Having said this, wake up and smell the roses. You are Slavs with a Bulgaroserbian connection origin & identity. This is fact not fiction

Macedonia is already in both the EU and NATO. Greece is a member of both and Macedonia is the region in Northern Greece. The Slavs of mostly Bulgarian descent who aren't even the majority in FYRO"M" have only helped Albanians take over "their" country.

PE,
What is your solution? Keep rejecting the presence of the Albanian element, just as the Serbs have done in the past, and hope that the problem will go away.
People deserve what's theirs and there is no other alternative. I don't think human development is taking steps back(as yet), as it did at the end of the Roman Empire.

Leonidid,
How could you call the Gruevski government pro-Bulgarian? The resurection of the sense of Bulgarian origin that begun during Georgievski's rule has been cut from the stumb. Now the lunatic theory of the descend of the Macedonians from the ancient ones runs suprime. There would have been no second Balkan War. A compromice between Greece and Bulgaria was reachable, if it was not the Serbian decision to ignore the Serbo-Bulgarian treaty signed the previous year and to demand a common border with Greece, despite of the obvious fact that the two nations are not immediate neighbours. Todays Macedonism is a direct consequense of the presence of Serbia- Yugoslavia in the region.