ICJ Kosovo debate in December

Neither Russia nor China submitted a response for Serbia this time. Very interesting.

9 did for Kosova (er, Albania)

To Arta:

Your comments "Neither Russia nor China submitted a response for Serbia this time. Very interesting. " is not at all interesting. Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to. It is the separatists that have to prove why they have the right to unilaterally separate from an internationally recognised state.

To Liam:

If, by some chance, the ICJ rules in favour of the albanians then for sure Republika Srpska will go it's on way. There will be no suis generis. You can be sure of this. However, this is not your only problem. The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)

imagine if Russia, China, Brazil, Romania, Slovakia would lodge their comments B92 WOULD CERTAINLY not miss it. But this time, playing it down at best!!
Hahahahah.

Thank you China, Russia, Brazil for dumping Serbia!

What if the ICJ comes down in favour of the Kosovo declaration of independence, will Serbia accept this? Or will they play the next stage of their politcal games with people's lives by instructing the government of the Republika Srpska to declare independence?

To aRTa and genty. You are aware the the follwoing states have submitted their opinions, including Russia, China and Brazil.

1. Czech Republic
2. France
3. Cyprus
4. China

4 countries submited comments in favor of Serbia:Argentina,Cyprus,Bolivia,Spain.

9 for Kosovo:USA,GB,France,Germany,Holland,Zwitzerland,Norway,Slovenia,Albania.

Russia & China not that interested this time.

To pss:

The separatists have the support of many powerful countries but it hasn't helped them one bit. They will never be a member of the UN or the EU :)

Without Serbia's consent, Kosovo will never be a legal state. In terms of EU membership, that carrot has worn thin. Serbia has nothing to lose. They will keep Serbia out so that they can say that Turkey and Albania are not being kept out because they are muslim countries. So, you see, Serbia has every reason to fight for Kosovo. Serbia will prevail, believe me. 500 years under Ottoman occupation did not destroy us, Hitler and his minions didn't succeed in destroying us and for sure, the bunch of rag tag bandits and their ailing sponsors will not destroy us.

Zivjela Srbija, Zivjela Srpsko KosovO!

Agenty M: "Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to."

Exactly! Well said.

Those supporting Serbia with written comments were Cyprus (for obvious reasons), Argentina (Falkland Islands), Bolivia (the current government's general anti-American stance?), and Spain (Basque problem).

At least the reading load on the judges won't be as bad for this round of submissions.

AgentM the scare tactic is running low on gas. First it was once Kosovo declares there will be hundreds others doing the same---nothing happened. Then Russia tried to fuel the fire with the Georgian provinces and no one jumped on board.
Most of the groups you talk about have at one time or another tried to announce their secession, the key factor is there has to be some huge support for these groups to be successful, and it is not there. None of these areas had already been severed by the UN (for their own protection).
2nd if ICJ were to rule solely in Serbia's favor (very, very doubtful) do you think as Serbia is trying to aspire to the EU they are going to start lawsuits? Talk about your black hole in the balkans.

'Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to.'

Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters.

"Thank you China, Russia, Brazil for dumping Serbia!"
(genti, 29 July 2009 15:52)

Try getting into UN and see how they dumped Serbia.

'Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to.'

Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters."
(Amer, 29 July 2009 21:40)

If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything.

'The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them.'

So the ruling may have to be narrowly drawn. It's up to the Court whether they want to restrict their judgment to a particular point (e.g., how resolution 1244 is to be read) or under what conditions a people is entitled to declare their independence. With the ICJ, I'm told, there's really no way of predicting which path they'll take on any given case.

pss "First it was once Kosovo declares there will be hundreds others doing the same---nothing happened. Then Russia tried to fuel the fire with the Georgian provinces and no one jumped on board.
Most of the groups you talk about have at one time or another tried to announce their secession, the key factor is there has to be some huge support for these groups to be successful, and it is not there. None of these areas had already been severed by the UN (for their own protection)."

That's because everyone is waiting to hear the outcome of the case - whether it sets a precedent or not which is why there have been no declarations of secession or recognition of S.O and Abkhazia. As for huge support, Kosovo will NEVER gain a UN seat whilst Russia and China sit as permanent members of the UNSC - Palestine had a lot more than half the UN members recommending it be recognised yet it still failed to gain a UN seat. Why? The US vetoed the decision - simple. R and C will sink any attempt at Kosovo gaining a UN seat (assuming they win the ICJ case), no matter how hard the US and EU try to push it through.

"2nd if ICJ were to rule solely in Serbia's favor (very, very doubtful) do you think as Serbia is trying to aspire to the EU they are going to start lawsuits? Talk about your black hole in the balkans." They don't need to start lawsuits. If the ICJ rules decisively in Serbia's favour (very likely considering the explicit question being posed to the ICJ)then it's the Europeans and Us who will be approaching Serbia (without Kosovo's knowledge) - they want to gain access to the coal reserves in Kosovo and if legally these are deemed to belong to Serbia, nobody will be willing to invest in Kosovo's reserves and nobody will be willing to invest in Kosovo period, so jeremic is right to comment that everyone will be back at the negotiating table when Serbia wins the ICJ case.

Mark "As of now not a single minority has mentioned Kosovo as a precedent.Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians" That's because there is a big difference between the cases. The S.O's and Abkhazians were/are seperate ethnic groups to Georgians, but crucially had their own seperate states in the past.

Kosovo has never existed as a state. Whilst Albanians might claim that Kosovo was Albanian land through the ages, then it could only claim to be that - part of Albania, not a seperate state of Kosovo, but the Us and Eu aren't stupid. They know another war would erupt if Albania declared that Kosovo belonged to them which is why they order the Albanians to keep the two seperate.

Agent M "They will keep Serbia out so that they can say that Turkey and Albania are not being kept out because they are muslim countries." I agree with this, but I also think that Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro will be kept out as well for the same reasons. As long as the EU can gain access to any resources in the Balkans and control strategic areas then as far as it's concerned, it's achieved it's aims. Slovenia and Croatia are special cases - being former Axis power countries in WWII.

""The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia." If the ICJ rule in favour of Kosovo then every "oppressed" minority will claim it's right to secede, that'll include northern Kosovo which the US and EU will be desperate to prevent as most of the coal reserves sit under northern Kosovo.

Amer "Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters." Or it may just be that Kosovo's supporters submitted more waffle which has no legal merit, which therefore requires no response.

Boston_us "People are living lives with the goods and problems that it presents, but nationalism is not one of them." Amazing how things can change so quickly, especially when there is economic upheaval - just look at Germany in the 1930's and what that lead to.

Roberto "We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very much." Freedom in independence?? You mean Albanian nationalism and the idea of a greater Albania. Don't take my word for it, listen to Thaci - he summarised it nicely when he said that you have been waiting for this moment for 100 years. This shows the TRUE reason for your "secession". And as for lies and bullying, those facets are the sole preserve of the Albaninas and their supporters. The bullying by the EU and US and the lies from the Albanians - Racak, 100,000 dead in Serbian concentration camps, 1 million Albanians ethnically cleansed. It will be very good for the Serbian cause for the courts to see the TRUTH not the propaganda peddled by the Albanians and EU and US govt for the western public.

Kosovo hasn't a hope in hell of winning this case. On what grounds - mass ethnic cleansing? It'll be easy to show that the displacement occurred when NATO started bombing, not when Serbian troops entered Kosovo. Persecution for the last 100 years? A big chunk of that time Tito was in charge, so you can't lay that at the door of Serbia. Mass murder? Out of a population of 2 million, 10,000 dead (according to the UN) and that includes all sides. Without being demeaning to anyone's death, this is a small number relative to the population size, so genocide doesn't factor. So i'm stumped as to what the Albanian argument is other than Albanian nationalists desire for an enlarged Albania.

Touche.

I would be interested to hear serious arguments from Albanians as to why they believe Kosovo should be independent. I'd like to see what you think your case is built on.

Peggy "If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything." Maybe the Palestinians also felt confident nobody would dare to block their UN seat when they had 100+ countries recognise them - so we're not just talking about Arab states recognising Pelstine, yet the US shot that idea out of the water. You're naive to think that the US and EU UNSC members can force through Kosovo's accession to the UN. Russia and China will permanently exclude Kosovo and there'll be NOTHIN the US or EU can do about it. The fact that Kosovo will NEVER be a UN member is fait accompli.

To aRTa and genty. You are aware the the follwoing states have submitted their opinions, including Russia, China and Brazil.

1. Czech Republic
2. France
3. Cyprus
4. China
(Yaroslav, 29 July 2009 17:16)

Yaroslav are you aware that we are talking about written comments to the initial statements sent to Hague?

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/141/15349.pdf?PHPSESSID=50468393b0ef6a280b6b1cd7fcbe7316

The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)
(agent M, 29 July 2009 18:56)

That is what the serbs want to happen.As of now not a single minority has mentioned Kosovo as a precedent.Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians.I wish the minorities in the countries that support Serbia start doing what you said.Since this countries are in a way telling their minorities that you are the same as Kosovo.

"Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters.
(Amer, 29 July 2009 21:40) "

Serbia & it's supporters have one 'written submission' against which all others pale.

It's called UN resolution 1244.

Anyone who thinks the ICJ is going to spout anything but ambiguous legal jargon is going to be sorely disappointed.

They can’t create rules for legal succession or everyone will do it, neither can they rule contrary to the wishes of the “West”.

It’ll be more stuff like the UN’s “status neutral” position, whatever the hell that means…

Clearly whatever moral arguments the Kosovar Albanians have to justify their independence will also apply to the Serbian areas of Kosovo as well. Remember 2004? 1999? Serbs clearly aren’t safe under Albanian rule either.

We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very much. so let us have a very public, global hearing, i look forward to it.

Touche!

roberto
frisco

Agent M @ #8 wrote:

"The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)"
(agent M, 29 July 2009 18:56)

Agent M, It seems that each time that Serbia threatens, predicts or makes pronouncements nothing comes of it. Wouldn't it be better if they said nothing rather than being proven wrong time and again!

What ever happened to the little yellow house where human organs were removed from unwilling donors? It all seems very silly and embarrassing for Serbia to have made such preposterous accusations, don't you think.

Not naive, just American: it's hard to believe a lawyer would simply let a chance to demolish an argument at this stage pass by, if they thought they could.

What do you suggest was the reason?
(Amer, 30 July 2009 15:24)

The argument had no merit at all. Not worth the time to reply. Is this satisfactory to you?

Mark:
you said:
> That is what the serbs want to happen.As of now not a single minority has mentioned

Kosovo as a precedent.

You really should do some research before you write this sort of nonsense. Try

googling "citing kosovo as a precedent" (no quotes). Here, I'll do it for you:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=citing+kosovo+as+a+precedent&btnG=Google+Sear

ch&meta=&aq=f&oq=

You also said:
> Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians.

Actually Of course, they have:

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL05465712


The Orgin Grinder:
> What ever happened to the little yellow house where human organs were removed from

unwilling donors? It all seems very silly and embarrassing for Serbia to have made

such preposterous accusations, don't you think.

As far as I know, 'little yellow house' is still there. And it's not so 'little' -

unless you live in a mansion that is.

And the problem you & people like you have is that it is not just serbs making these

accusations. Reports are spreading. Here's a recent one (last week) from my side of

the world (South Korea):

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=8646

And here's a video from the BBC's 'Newsnight' program broadcast in April:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7998290.stm

And the earlier associated BBC pieces:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7990761.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7990984.stm

'Grind' away mate.


roberto:
> We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring

it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very

much.

'Roberto's comments do seem to be getting a tad more extreme of late. Can only assume this latest piece is either some sort of 'pep talk' for K-albanians, or is meant to 'stir up' the serbs. Bears little resemblance to reality in any case.

Serbia's youth must certenly be tired of all this Kosovo never ending saga. It is time for people to move on, and live their lives in harmony in this great democratic place that Europe is becoming. The great example is Greece. If you spend time with the young people in Athens and around, no one is speaking of war and change of borders. People are living lives with the goods and problems that it presents, but nationalism is not one of them. And believe me, no nation has given more to the known world and nothing compares with the great Consantinopole and Bizantine realm.

'If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything.
(Peggy, 30 July 2009 06:36) '

Not naive, just American: it's hard to believe a lawyer would simply let a chance to demolish an argument at this stage pass by, if they thought they could.

What do you suggest was the reason?

On 29 July 2009 18:56, agent M wrote:

"The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them."

Wrong on 2 accounts:

1) Minorities can not secede (except temporary through the use of force, violence and terror).

2) Surely the majority can stop them. Either through force, violence, terror, or a democratic vote.

And - why is it that secession is problem??
--

peter,sydney
The big hole in your theory that everyone is waiting on the ICJ ruling is it will not matter to anyone.
There will be celebrations in Serbia if the opinion is in their favor but will not mean much else. If in Kosovo's favor the fence riders will probably come on over the fence but not much else.
As far as secessionist movements pinning their hopes on a decision, take SO. They declared independence in 1990 but no one recognized or supported it until Russia tried to jumpstart problems.
But there was not a huge band of supporters jumping on Russia's wagon. Other movements will still have the same problem garnering support for their cause. Kosovo had that support before they declared.

imagine if Russia, China, Brazil, Romania, Slovakia would lodge their comments B92 WOULD CERTAINLY not miss it. But this time, playing it down at best!!
Hahahahah.

Thank you China, Russia, Brazil for dumping Serbia!

Neither Russia nor China submitted a response for Serbia this time. Very interesting.

9 did for Kosova (er, Albania)

4 countries submited comments in favor of Serbia:Argentina,Cyprus,Bolivia,Spain.

9 for Kosovo:USA,GB,France,Germany,Holland,Zwitzerland,Norway,Slovenia,Albania.

Russia & China not that interested this time.

To pss:

The separatists have the support of many powerful countries but it hasn't helped them one bit. They will never be a member of the UN or the EU :)

Without Serbia's consent, Kosovo will never be a legal state. In terms of EU membership, that carrot has worn thin. Serbia has nothing to lose. They will keep Serbia out so that they can say that Turkey and Albania are not being kept out because they are muslim countries. So, you see, Serbia has every reason to fight for Kosovo. Serbia will prevail, believe me. 500 years under Ottoman occupation did not destroy us, Hitler and his minions didn't succeed in destroying us and for sure, the bunch of rag tag bandits and their ailing sponsors will not destroy us.

Zivjela Srbija, Zivjela Srpsko KosovO!

To Arta:

Your comments "Neither Russia nor China submitted a response for Serbia this time. Very interesting. " is not at all interesting. Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to. It is the separatists that have to prove why they have the right to unilaterally separate from an internationally recognised state.

To Liam:

If, by some chance, the ICJ rules in favour of the albanians then for sure Republika Srpska will go it's on way. There will be no suis generis. You can be sure of this. However, this is not your only problem. The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)

What if the ICJ comes down in favour of the Kosovo declaration of independence, will Serbia accept this? Or will they play the next stage of their politcal games with people's lives by instructing the government of the Republika Srpska to declare independence?

To aRTa and genty. You are aware the the follwoing states have submitted their opinions, including Russia, China and Brazil.

1. Czech Republic
2. France
3. Cyprus
4. China

AgentM the scare tactic is running low on gas. First it was once Kosovo declares there will be hundreds others doing the same---nothing happened. Then Russia tried to fuel the fire with the Georgian provinces and no one jumped on board.
Most of the groups you talk about have at one time or another tried to announce their secession, the key factor is there has to be some huge support for these groups to be successful, and it is not there. None of these areas had already been severed by the UN (for their own protection).
2nd if ICJ were to rule solely in Serbia's favor (very, very doubtful) do you think as Serbia is trying to aspire to the EU they are going to start lawsuits? Talk about your black hole in the balkans.

Those supporting Serbia with written comments were Cyprus (for obvious reasons), Argentina (Falkland Islands), Bolivia (the current government's general anti-American stance?), and Spain (Basque problem).

At least the reading load on the judges won't be as bad for this round of submissions.

We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very much. so let us have a very public, global hearing, i look forward to it.

Touche!

roberto
frisco

'Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to.'

Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters.

Agenty M: "Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to."

Exactly! Well said.

The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)
(agent M, 29 July 2009 18:56)

That is what the serbs want to happen.As of now not a single minority has mentioned Kosovo as a precedent.Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians.I wish the minorities in the countries that support Serbia start doing what you said.Since this countries are in a way telling their minorities that you are the same as Kosovo.

Agent M @ #8 wrote:

"The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia. After the advisory opinion comes the prosecutions. Stay tuned :)"
(agent M, 29 July 2009 18:56)

Agent M, It seems that each time that Serbia threatens, predicts or makes pronouncements nothing comes of it. Wouldn't it be better if they said nothing rather than being proven wrong time and again!

What ever happened to the little yellow house where human organs were removed from unwilling donors? It all seems very silly and embarrassing for Serbia to have made such preposterous accusations, don't you think.

'The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them.'

So the ruling may have to be narrowly drawn. It's up to the Court whether they want to restrict their judgment to a particular point (e.g., how resolution 1244 is to be read) or under what conditions a people is entitled to declare their independence. With the ICJ, I'm told, there's really no way of predicting which path they'll take on any given case.

"Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters.
(Amer, 29 July 2009 21:40) "

Serbia & it's supporters have one 'written submission' against which all others pale.

It's called UN resolution 1244.

Serbia's youth must certenly be tired of all this Kosovo never ending saga. It is time for people to move on, and live their lives in harmony in this great democratic place that Europe is becoming. The great example is Greece. If you spend time with the young people in Athens and around, no one is speaking of war and change of borders. People are living lives with the goods and problems that it presents, but nationalism is not one of them. And believe me, no nation has given more to the known world and nothing compares with the great Consantinopole and Bizantine realm.

"Thank you China, Russia, Brazil for dumping Serbia!"
(genti, 29 July 2009 15:52)

Try getting into UN and see how they dumped Serbia.

'Their initial submissions clearly didn't need to be added to.'

Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters."
(Amer, 29 July 2009 21:40)

If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything.

pss "First it was once Kosovo declares there will be hundreds others doing the same---nothing happened. Then Russia tried to fuel the fire with the Georgian provinces and no one jumped on board.
Most of the groups you talk about have at one time or another tried to announce their secession, the key factor is there has to be some huge support for these groups to be successful, and it is not there. None of these areas had already been severed by the UN (for their own protection)."

That's because everyone is waiting to hear the outcome of the case - whether it sets a precedent or not which is why there have been no declarations of secession or recognition of S.O and Abkhazia. As for huge support, Kosovo will NEVER gain a UN seat whilst Russia and China sit as permanent members of the UNSC - Palestine had a lot more than half the UN members recommending it be recognised yet it still failed to gain a UN seat. Why? The US vetoed the decision - simple. R and C will sink any attempt at Kosovo gaining a UN seat (assuming they win the ICJ case), no matter how hard the US and EU try to push it through.

"2nd if ICJ were to rule solely in Serbia's favor (very, very doubtful) do you think as Serbia is trying to aspire to the EU they are going to start lawsuits? Talk about your black hole in the balkans." They don't need to start lawsuits. If the ICJ rules decisively in Serbia's favour (very likely considering the explicit question being posed to the ICJ)then it's the Europeans and Us who will be approaching Serbia (without Kosovo's knowledge) - they want to gain access to the coal reserves in Kosovo and if legally these are deemed to belong to Serbia, nobody will be willing to invest in Kosovo's reserves and nobody will be willing to invest in Kosovo period, so jeremic is right to comment that everyone will be back at the negotiating table when Serbia wins the ICJ case.

Mark "As of now not a single minority has mentioned Kosovo as a precedent.Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians" That's because there is a big difference between the cases. The S.O's and Abkhazians were/are seperate ethnic groups to Georgians, but crucially had their own seperate states in the past.

Kosovo has never existed as a state. Whilst Albanians might claim that Kosovo was Albanian land through the ages, then it could only claim to be that - part of Albania, not a seperate state of Kosovo, but the Us and Eu aren't stupid. They know another war would erupt if Albania declared that Kosovo belonged to them which is why they order the Albanians to keep the two seperate.

Agent M "They will keep Serbia out so that they can say that Turkey and Albania are not being kept out because they are muslim countries." I agree with this, but I also think that Bosnia, Macedonia and Montenegro will be kept out as well for the same reasons. As long as the EU can gain access to any resources in the Balkans and control strategic areas then as far as it's concerned, it's achieved it's aims. Slovenia and Croatia are special cases - being former Axis power countries in WWII.

""The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them. For this reason the ICJ verdict will favour Serbia." If the ICJ rule in favour of Kosovo then every "oppressed" minority will claim it's right to secede, that'll include northern Kosovo which the US and EU will be desperate to prevent as most of the coal reserves sit under northern Kosovo.

Amer "Or, they had no counter-arguments to the arguments raised by Kosovo's supporters." Or it may just be that Kosovo's supporters submitted more waffle which has no legal merit, which therefore requires no response.

Boston_us "People are living lives with the goods and problems that it presents, but nationalism is not one of them." Amazing how things can change so quickly, especially when there is economic upheaval - just look at Germany in the 1930's and what that lead to.

Roberto "We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very much." Freedom in independence?? You mean Albanian nationalism and the idea of a greater Albania. Don't take my word for it, listen to Thaci - he summarised it nicely when he said that you have been waiting for this moment for 100 years. This shows the TRUE reason for your "secession". And as for lies and bullying, those facets are the sole preserve of the Albaninas and their supporters. The bullying by the EU and US and the lies from the Albanians - Racak, 100,000 dead in Serbian concentration camps, 1 million Albanians ethnically cleansed. It will be very good for the Serbian cause for the courts to see the TRUTH not the propaganda peddled by the Albanians and EU and US govt for the western public.

Kosovo hasn't a hope in hell of winning this case. On what grounds - mass ethnic cleansing? It'll be easy to show that the displacement occurred when NATO started bombing, not when Serbian troops entered Kosovo. Persecution for the last 100 years? A big chunk of that time Tito was in charge, so you can't lay that at the door of Serbia. Mass murder? Out of a population of 2 million, 10,000 dead (according to the UN) and that includes all sides. Without being demeaning to anyone's death, this is a small number relative to the population size, so genocide doesn't factor. So i'm stumped as to what the Albanian argument is other than Albanian nationalists desire for an enlarged Albania.

Touche.

I would be interested to hear serious arguments from Albanians as to why they believe Kosovo should be independent. I'd like to see what you think your case is built on.

Peggy "If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything." Maybe the Palestinians also felt confident nobody would dare to block their UN seat when they had 100+ countries recognise them - so we're not just talking about Arab states recognising Pelstine, yet the US shot that idea out of the water. You're naive to think that the US and EU UNSC members can force through Kosovo's accession to the UN. Russia and China will permanently exclude Kosovo and there'll be NOTHIN the US or EU can do about it. The fact that Kosovo will NEVER be a UN member is fait accompli.

peter,sydney
The big hole in your theory that everyone is waiting on the ICJ ruling is it will not matter to anyone.
There will be celebrations in Serbia if the opinion is in their favor but will not mean much else. If in Kosovo's favor the fence riders will probably come on over the fence but not much else.
As far as secessionist movements pinning their hopes on a decision, take SO. They declared independence in 1990 but no one recognized or supported it until Russia tried to jumpstart problems.
But there was not a huge band of supporters jumping on Russia's wagon. Other movements will still have the same problem garnering support for their cause. Kosovo had that support before they declared.

Anyone who thinks the ICJ is going to spout anything but ambiguous legal jargon is going to be sorely disappointed.

They can’t create rules for legal succession or everyone will do it, neither can they rule contrary to the wishes of the “West”.

It’ll be more stuff like the UN’s “status neutral” position, whatever the hell that means…

Clearly whatever moral arguments the Kosovar Albanians have to justify their independence will also apply to the Serbian areas of Kosovo as well. Remember 2004? 1999? Serbs clearly aren’t safe under Albanian rule either.

Not naive, just American: it's hard to believe a lawyer would simply let a chance to demolish an argument at this stage pass by, if they thought they could.

What do you suggest was the reason?
(Amer, 30 July 2009 15:24)

The argument had no merit at all. Not worth the time to reply. Is this satisfactory to you?

On 29 July 2009 18:56, agent M wrote:

"The problem is that every minority on the planet will want to secede and there will be nothing anyone can do to stop them."

Wrong on 2 accounts:

1) Minorities can not secede (except temporary through the use of force, violence and terror).

2) Surely the majority can stop them. Either through force, violence, terror, or a democratic vote.

And - why is it that secession is problem??
--

To aRTa and genty. You are aware the the follwoing states have submitted their opinions, including Russia, China and Brazil.

1. Czech Republic
2. France
3. Cyprus
4. China
(Yaroslav, 29 July 2009 17:16)

Yaroslav are you aware that we are talking about written comments to the initial statements sent to Hague?

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/141/15349.pdf?PHPSESSID=50468393b0ef6a280b6b1cd7fcbe7316

'If you belive this then you are truly very naive, just like a little boy who thinks his big friends are so clever at everything.
(Peggy, 30 July 2009 06:36) '

Not naive, just American: it's hard to believe a lawyer would simply let a chance to demolish an argument at this stage pass by, if they thought they could.

What do you suggest was the reason?

Mark:
you said:
> That is what the serbs want to happen.As of now not a single minority has mentioned

Kosovo as a precedent.

You really should do some research before you write this sort of nonsense. Try

googling "citing kosovo as a precedent" (no quotes). Here, I'll do it for you:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=citing+kosovo+as+a+precedent&btnG=Google+Sear

ch&meta=&aq=f&oq=

You also said:
> Not even S.Osetians or Abkhazians.

Actually Of course, they have:

http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL05465712


The Orgin Grinder:
> What ever happened to the little yellow house where human organs were removed from

unwilling donors? It all seems very silly and embarrassing for Serbia to have made

such preposterous accusations, don't you think.

As far as I know, 'little yellow house' is still there. And it's not so 'little' -

unless you live in a mansion that is.

And the problem you & people like you have is that it is not just serbs making these

accusations. Reports are spreading. Here's a recent one (last week) from my side of

the world (South Korea):

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=8646

And here's a video from the BBC's 'Newsnight' program broadcast in April:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7998290.stm

And the earlier associated BBC pieces:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7990761.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7990984.stm

'Grind' away mate.


roberto:
> We (those who support freedom and independence)are ready for the ICJ case, so bring

it on. all of your lies and bullying and coercion will not work there, thank you very

much.

'Roberto's comments do seem to be getting a tad more extreme of late. Can only assume this latest piece is either some sort of 'pep talk' for K-albanians, or is meant to 'stir up' the serbs. Bears little resemblance to reality in any case.