Looks like the Turks are up to their old proclivities as usual. Old habits die hard.
I found the previous post about the Balkans enjoying a renaissance while under the Turkish yoke to be particularly amusing and revisionist. Great way to troll though!
@Kreshnik
Look the point here is not the integration of Turkey in EU. I really do not mind Turkey being inside EU. In fact it will be better for all other countries for many reasons. The problem is that Turkey is causing problems as stated to my previous message with all those threats. Turkey has not the right attitude to join EU. As for your compatriots. It is really sad that you have such feelings for Greeks. It is like having those feelings about USA since I assume that you live and work there. How can you live and work in USA since you hate for example the Americans. It is like me working in Turkey. I would not accept to go there working even there were a lot of jobs. And you should consider seriously the fact that Turkey is not helping you despite that you have the same views and religion. And this is my point. As for the Arvanites, they are here hundreds of years. Like the "Americans" who migrated from Europe and Africa they are now Americans. As for your friends/relatives in Athens if they are so bothered they can still leave. Nobody forces them to stay. Anyway PEACE!!!
"For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them..."
To save them from what? From a Serbuian invasion that would bring millions of people back within Serbia against thir will?
If a constant commitment of a foreign power is required just to keep the peace, God help the Western Balkans.
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Keep dreaming. If it makes you feel better to think I am anything but a white, Anglo-Saxon American, go for it. That said, please know that unlike you, I am a real American and not an immigrant. I happen to work here in Kosovo and I don't buy into my country's policy here after seeing reality on the ground. As far as Kosovo-Metohija goes, I use the proper name for it because I have an undergraduate degree in Slavic Studies and I never use the term "Kosova," even when dealing with Albanian colleagues.
I find it very funny that whenever an American posts something here that is not in favor of Albanians, some Albanians always immediately cry that it must be a Serb in disguise. This is intellectually dishonest and quite silly to believe that ALL Americans are pro-Albanian.
It is also amusing that you cannot refute anything in my previous argument (because it is based on fact) so you cry about me not being American.
Jason:
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija:
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Now about this nonsense between Greece and Turkey. There was always a big problem for this two state, to start a war within a minutes. That's why they were accepted to NATO in the same year. why, because NATO members could stop the spark between two states. But, Turkey is much more stronger than Greece.
Many people were writing down when Montenegro recognized Kosovo as a independent country, many of this people wrote that, they will travel to Turkey for Holidays. And now, many of you guys are against Turkey.
For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them think again:
1)Turkey is a third world country,they do not have a military industry and are not able to manufacture weapons(which is very essential if you want to be a great power) but are bying them from the US.
2)Turkey consists 35% of ethnic minorities that hate the Turks(Kurds,Alevites,Arabs,Iranians).
3)The only reason Turkey exists as a state is because they have been propped up by the Anglosaxons until now in order to keep the Russians away from gaining a strategic foothold in Little Asia!
When they leave(which will happen soon)Turkey will suffer the fate of the old Yugoslavia.
Everything in favour of Albania depends solely of the position of the US,forget Turkey,Germany they cannot measure up to the military strength of Russia.
Remember the Russian-Ottoman War of 1878 in which the Ottoman troops were catastrophically defeated and already left Konstantinopel only to be saved by the Brits which back then were the "naval" superpower and threatened to intervene on behalf of them.
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
(Canadian, 30 July 2009 12:25)
Fooling myself? I am American and I know that, first off, most Americans do not even know where the Balkans are. Peter is right. Second off, you are fooling yourself if you think human rights are involved in our decision to intervene in Kosovo. I would need to write a doctoral thesis to list all the human rights violations we have overlooked or helped commit, so get real.
Take for example, the Kurds in Turkey. They have suffered infinitely worse than Albanians yet because Turkey is a client-state of my country, we overlook those crimes. Then we can move on to Latin American dictators that we have supported who carried out assassinations of thousands of civilians in El Salvador and Nicaragua. Ask William Walker about his role in helping to do those. Shall I then mention Saddam? He was a client of ours when he gassed and killed thousands of Kurds in the 1980s and we did not say a word. Please do not make yourself look any sillier by arguing that the US role in Kosovo was humanitarian. Consider this a little history lesson.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
(Trix, 30 July 2009 13:05)
Trix, most of the Albanians who contribute in this site are either from Albanias/Kosova or North America. Yes, I do have relatives who live in Athens but I can't wait from them to return home otherwise they'll become just like the Arvanites, self-hating Albanians.
Unlike many of my compatriots who support Tirkey's EU accession I do not since I do not think Turkey belongs to such club but like almost every Albanian on the face of this planet, including those relatives in Athens, I could never side with the Greeks on any issues, and I am refraining here from using a stronger lanuage.
@Canadian(in papers...I am pretty sure you are an immigrant fro a Balkan country...)
Who said that Greece is threatening Turkey??? We report to the rest of Europe facts and evidence that Turkey wants conflict with us. You call this a threat?
I will tell you what is a thrat.
Threat is that Turkish F16 fly over Greek islands everyday looking for trouble..
Threat is that Turkey sends illegal immigrants from Afghanistan and Pakistan to Greece and to the rest of Europe destroying economies and societies.
Threat is that TUrkey wants the oil residing in the Greek territory and tries to make illegal research in Greek water.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
I don't think there are too many Americans who even know what the Balkans is.
Also, Greece is not threatening anybody. It is Turkey being aggressive, and it will be Turkey to pay for it. The world is not stupid, they can see who is the provocateur here.
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
In the event of a war, the EU would back Greece, their fellow EU member of years, Turkey would be backed by Al-Qaeda, Taliban and other horrific terrorist groups, like the Bosniaks were.
Religion still plays a big role in Europe, I'm afraid, why else is Turkey kept at the door of EU membership?
The US would not take on the EU on the side of Turkey either, their military is too stretched across the world, so don't expect that the US and UK will drop everything to go save Turkey.
EUasiaMighty
It's called diplomacy, this is what a civilized country would do, but we can't expect the same from Turkey. Greece has actually progressed beyond the Dark Ages, unlike some others.
Turkey should never, ever be allowed to become an EU member.
they continue to live up with the hope that they can control and do whatever with the Balkans. Stop provocations, stop Turkey's annexation into the EU.
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
(Canadian, 29 July 2009 22:22)
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija: there was something to be gained for my country and it had nothing to do with altruism. Turkey was vital to the US during the Cold War, and it still is important in our illegal war in Afghanistan. There is no love between the US and Turkey, so do not kid yourself. When Turkey is no longer useful to my country, it will be cast aside like we cast aside Afghans after the USSR collapsed and how we bailed out on the Shia in Iraq after the first Gulf War. Consider this a reality check.
Hey Albanian neighbors why so hostile? You all put too much faith in Turkey and should put more effort into your own needs, but you've given us great insight into what you wish the world would be like.
As far as Turkey's military wiping out the Greeks goes I wouldn't underestimate the Greeks, and don' think for a moment the Greeks will be alone if Turkey tries something. People the world over wide admire the Greeks for their culture and character.
As far as the U.S and UK being Turkey's friends just remember the only real friend of the U.S and UK is their policy to maintain political/economic power across the globe. Thus, the present status quo suits them well, and as I said earlier, they will not tolerate a Turkish incursion of any kind.
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
I would suggest the Albanian and the Fyromian "aussie" friends of Turkey to calm down a little. Don't show such envy because Greece is a far more advanced and powerful country than yours. Probably in 30 years time Albania will be like Greece is today...
Turkey is in a pathetic situation as a state. It has one of the higest corruption rates in the world, their people - especially in the east - are almost starving (less than 1000$ per month), and the infrastructure of the country is actually third world. The military capability of Turkey (which is trully high) is only due to the fact that the militants are totally controlling the Turkish "democracy", and they are actually using most of the state funds for military purposes and equipment. Not caring about the turkish people that live under poverty. The moment that Turkey will become "democracy", and their people will be allowed to have certain rights, Turkey will not be able to buy even a bullet... because it is already broke.
But don't compare Turkey with Greece. Greece is a far more advanced and developed country in every aspect and believe me the majority of Turkish people wold DREAM to live like the Greek people live today. And of course Greece is not afraid Turkey. It has the necessary power and military capability to protect herself. Greece just wants to let the Europeans know who is actually the "European wannabe" they negotiate with...
In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal
(Alban, 28 July 2009 14:51)
Nonsense. Come to Hungary and just look around or read history books.
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Looks like someone has been reading Kosovo's new (rewritten) history textbooks. What is next, will Alban say that the monastery is Decani is not Serbian? - Oh wait, they already think that:)
Alexandros wrote: "...Prime Minister...of Turkey...told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT."
This is like in American movies with cops: "Please hands up, don't make me shoot you"
funny, Turks be afraid of Greeks!?
Lol.
@Peter
Not in love just numbers..
look at our trade relationship..
Italy -Turkey is worthy as much as Italy with W.B. !!
simple...
And anyway Peter go to Turkey you will be amused this country is far better than any of Balkans countries..
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
(Duplex, 28 July 2009 15:06)
Are you sure Duplex ?
hehehehe
look
Excert taken from Bill Clinton's autobiography "My Life" page 697, paragraph 2
" On January 30, Prime Minister Victor Chenomyrdin of Russia came to the White House for his sixth meeting with Al Gore. After they finished their commission business, Chernomyrdin came to see me to brief me on evens in Russia and Yeltsin's prospects for reelection. Just before out meeting, I spoke to President Suleyman Demirel and Prime Minister Tansu Ciller of Turkey. They told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT.
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Are you kidding us all? The Ottoman system was an apartheit! Unlike Western Europe, its subjects were allowed to reserve their faith BUT they were legally second class citizens! The churches were to be smaller, without stiples. Christians were to pay higher taxes! The word of a Christion did not stand against tha word of a Muslim in court! The Christians (and Jews) could not seve in the Army or in the administration unless they converted to Islam.
Since the existance of an underclass was useful there were no forced Islamization programs...except in strategic regions like Bosnia, Albania, The Rhodopes, Dobrudja...
You can say what you want about Greece, but if the Turks ever attack them, the rest of Europe will come to Greece's aid, and then Turkey will be in trouble.
We have united against the Turks before when they attacked us centuries ago, we will do it again.
Ask the average European, who they prefer between Greece and Turkey and who they would support in a war, and don't be surprized of their response.
alban
"So as hard as eu and Greece with its propaganda try to destroy image of turkey you will always fail"
Fail in what? Keeping them out of the EU? Many current members of the EU got in LONG AFTER Turkey submitted it's membership application.
Doesn't this look to you like the EU not wanting Turkey in the club?
Oh, and they have done enough to achieve this image themselves, the Greeks did not need to spread any "propaganda" about them.
"Greece is country that always tries to make trouble and than always ask help from their master’s eu"
Huh? The only thing I know with regards to Greece in the EU is that it is a prosperous country and a favoured tourist destination for EU citizens.
I remember when I was on Creta and Rhodos, I heard only Dutch, English, German and Polish (and Russian). I know people who keep going back to Greece on holiday, that's how amazing it is.
"In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
What nonsense are you talking about? Over 2.5 million Christians (Armenian, Greek and Assyrian) were exterminated by the Turks after WW1!
Another thing is that it was not only the Young Turk movement, but also Abdul Hamid II in the 1800's (up to 300 000) who did the same.
The Greeks did not kill even a tiny fraction of Albanians (who were Nazi sympathizers, might I add) as the Turks did (in fact, not even 1%)!
Hell, they are even massively discriminating against their own muslim brothers, the Kurds, today!
Germany has atoned for its past and tried to catch its war criminals. The Turks deny their genocide!
Go and read a history book before you spout such nonsense here! It is offensive to read! Or did Hoxha burn them all?
Luigi
The key word you used is "partner", which I am fine with, but they are not European and do not deserve to be in the EU. I don't know what you love so much about this country.
szemi
"Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession"
Except for Albania, America and Luigi (and probably Israel too, knowing them).
Mike
Didn't some EU politician say that once? That if Turkey was split, they would take the European part?
Sure Leonidas,nobody need their neighbours,I hope you'll enjoy serbo-rusian friendship,they're the one that you have to deal vith everyday not the neighbours.
"We have more Albanians living in Turkey than in Albania. We have more Chechens living in Turkey than in Chechnya. We have more Bosnians living in Turkey than in Bosnia. We have more Kurds living in Turkey than in northern Iraq." Davutoğlu argued that this character of Turkey is an asset for Europe if it continues to be involved in the world scene.
Ahmed Davutoglu-Turkish FM
You can keep all these people
in Turkey Mr Davutoglu and live happily everafter.Europe
doesn't need any of them.
To be honest, I think the EU would like to have Eastern Thrace in the EU (they get Constantinople and the Straits). But the rest of Anatolia is an economic drain and a demographic nightmare.
---"Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline"
I feel so bad for Greece, NOT! Since the EU debacle you have blackmailed us very step of the way, to the point of supporting some scum in Himara. It's much more than recognizing Kosova. Do you know why Albania has a defense treaty with Turkey? because of you. You have occupied half of Albanian plenty of times when Albania was barely a state, you never feel like you have enough land, now you are choking in it. Then there is Chameria and Greek Orthodox Church spreading propaganda in the South.
In short, this Albania is enjoying your plight. Albanians (Arvanites) saved you once, now they are afraid of speaking Albania in public and other Albanians are derisively called "Turko-alvanos."
History is funny Greeks...now you have no friends, no one wants to start a war with Turks, even USA is on their camp. You aligned with Russia and against US too.
P.S. Turkey knows they will "never" get in EU that's why they do this, or at least not for 20 years. Until then they will be a $2 Trillion economy, 100 million people, and Greece will be bankrupt trying to match them militarily or a vassal state (google Finlandization)
P.P.S. Bulgaria is smart, they have 1 million Turks in there and Turkey is right next door.
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
(Peter Sudyka, 28 July 2009 14:02)
Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession outside the building of European Parliment and some other EU institutions.Such a decision would be the last nail in EU's coffin.
Don't understand this anti-Turkish stance..
Anyway for us in Italy the Mediterrean agenda is far more important than anything else regarding Eu engagement policy..
We see Turkey as a big partner in that context..
Turkey will never join the EU because several countries will block it - Germany, France etc.
Do not forget Germany just kicked out a Turkish diplomat and all of the EU is not happy to Turkey helping illegal immigrants enter the EU through Greece.
These airspace violations are the actions of a regime with nowhere to go except causing trouble with its neighbours and persecuting Kurds etc.
The US and UK - Turkey's "friends" are getting weaker and will probably shift their position as Turkey becomes more belligerent.
There are many anti-Turkish parties getting more votes in Europe (such as the British National Party) and they will slowly change policies..
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
The only way Turkey is going to get it is if Greece shoots down one of their planes. I really hope they do it soon, it will put Turkey back in its place in relations to EU. Turks are not Europeans in any sense of the word and have no place in EU.
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
Turkey's behavior towards Greece and Cyprus is a reflexion of the power struggle that has and is still been taking place between the army and the islamic goverment.
There have been a number of army coups in the past and at present there is the "ergenekon" conspiracy in which scores of army officers have been arrested for their participation in it.
The Turkish army -above all-is big business controlling big chunks of Turkey's defence industry and the generals are the main beneficiaries.
On top of that the army controls all drugs and human trafficking into Europe and making millions of dollars in the process.
Clearly, there can be no path for Turkey into the EU as a "privileged member" until there is a withdrawal of the Turkish occupation troops from Cyprus, the reunification of the island as a single state, the return of the ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriot refugees to their homes in the north and the withdrawal of the tens of thousands of Turkish settlers introduced to the occupied region with the deliberate objective of changing the demographic composition of the state of Cyprus.
Turkey should obviously not violate Athens airspace. I like to hear a response from Turkey as i suspect they have a different take on it.
As far as Turkey joining the E.U, I don't think they should for their own sake. They are already one of the most powerful and strategically located country in the world and joining the E.U would make them just another country among the 28 others. They are doing fairly good on their own economically and politically. This is not a country that needs to join the E.U. If I were them I would only pursue visa liberalization and free trade agreement.
Turkey cannot pick and choose which EU guidelines it wishes to follow in the pursuit of EU membership, Greek FM was quoted as saying.
Don't worry, Greek FM, Turkey will never get in the EU, same as Albania and Kosovo never will.
Lets be honest here, a lot of the present EU contries are racist towards muslims and don't want them in EU, no matter how "western oriented" and "pro-usa" they are...
Turkey is a country that wishes to become a member of the EU, and believes that EU should follow their will than the opposite. They want to become members only under their terms. They still today refuse to recognise one of the EU members (Cyprus). They are applying pure expansionism having their aircrafts violating the air space of another EU member (Greece) almost everyday (the people that see the turkish aircrafts above their heads everyday happen to be "EU" citizens!). And they are brutally violating the 15 million Kurds inside their country every single day - by killing them, abducting them, terrorizing them.
How can the EU negotiating with such a country for entrance? It is a shame that only France and Greece openly talk about Turkey's shameful behaviour when EVERYBODY else just keep silent. It is a total shame for EU even to talk and negotiate with this country...
Great news! Another reason for the EU not to take on Turkey as a member and another country on our side!
I know that some people here brag about Turkey being able to fly their planes wherever they want to and that Greece and Cyprus can't do a thing about it, well here we go, they can, and are doing so, and Turkey will have to stop with their bullying if they are so keen on joining Europe, though this is just a drop in the ocean of their problems to overcome.
Stay strong Greece, don't let Turkey intimidate you!
Greece is facing difficulte times. The age old enmnity with Turkey gives no signs of relieve. Serbia, Greece's traditional regional ally is weakened and of course is no longer a neighbouring country. Macedonia - the product of the ill fated Serbo-Greek attempt to have a common border is threatening to twist the entire Greek identity by dehellenizing Alexander the Great, St Paul's mission etc. Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline. The ethnic tenssion may reappear. As ambassador Montgomery recentely stated, Greece has protested when the US diplomats met with a Greek citizen claimnig to be repressed after declairing to be of Bulgarian ethnic origin.
Turkey is a country that wishes to become a member of the EU, and believes that EU should follow their will than the opposite. They want to become members only under their terms. They still today refuse to recognise one of the EU members (Cyprus). They are applying pure expansionism having their aircrafts violating the air space of another EU member (Greece) almost everyday (the people that see the turkish aircrafts above their heads everyday happen to be "EU" citizens!). And they are brutally violating the 15 million Kurds inside their country every single day - by killing them, abducting them, terrorizing them.
How can the EU negotiating with such a country for entrance? It is a shame that only France and Greece openly talk about Turkey's shameful behaviour when EVERYBODY else just keep silent. It is a total shame for EU even to talk and negotiate with this country...
Great news! Another reason for the EU not to take on Turkey as a member and another country on our side!
I know that some people here brag about Turkey being able to fly their planes wherever they want to and that Greece and Cyprus can't do a thing about it, well here we go, they can, and are doing so, and Turkey will have to stop with their bullying if they are so keen on joining Europe, though this is just a drop in the ocean of their problems to overcome.
Stay strong Greece, don't let Turkey intimidate you!
Turkey cannot pick and choose which EU guidelines it wishes to follow in the pursuit of EU membership, Greek FM was quoted as saying.
Don't worry, Greek FM, Turkey will never get in the EU, same as Albania and Kosovo never will.
Lets be honest here, a lot of the present EU contries are racist towards muslims and don't want them in EU, no matter how "western oriented" and "pro-usa" they are...
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
"We have more Albanians living in Turkey than in Albania. We have more Chechens living in Turkey than in Chechnya. We have more Bosnians living in Turkey than in Bosnia. We have more Kurds living in Turkey than in northern Iraq." Davutoğlu argued that this character of Turkey is an asset for Europe if it continues to be involved in the world scene.
Ahmed Davutoglu-Turkish FM
You can keep all these people
in Turkey Mr Davutoglu and live happily everafter.Europe
doesn't need any of them.
Turkey's behavior towards Greece and Cyprus is a reflexion of the power struggle that has and is still been taking place between the army and the islamic goverment.
There have been a number of army coups in the past and at present there is the "ergenekon" conspiracy in which scores of army officers have been arrested for their participation in it.
The Turkish army -above all-is big business controlling big chunks of Turkey's defence industry and the generals are the main beneficiaries.
On top of that the army controls all drugs and human trafficking into Europe and making millions of dollars in the process.
Clearly, there can be no path for Turkey into the EU as a "privileged member" until there is a withdrawal of the Turkish occupation troops from Cyprus, the reunification of the island as a single state, the return of the ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriot refugees to their homes in the north and the withdrawal of the tens of thousands of Turkish settlers introduced to the occupied region with the deliberate objective of changing the demographic composition of the state of Cyprus.
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
The only way Turkey is going to get it is if Greece shoots down one of their planes. I really hope they do it soon, it will put Turkey back in its place in relations to EU. Turks are not Europeans in any sense of the word and have no place in EU.
Turkey should obviously not violate Athens airspace. I like to hear a response from Turkey as i suspect they have a different take on it.
As far as Turkey joining the E.U, I don't think they should for their own sake. They are already one of the most powerful and strategically located country in the world and joining the E.U would make them just another country among the 28 others. They are doing fairly good on their own economically and politically. This is not a country that needs to join the E.U. If I were them I would only pursue visa liberalization and free trade agreement.
Turkey will never join the EU because several countries will block it - Germany, France etc.
Do not forget Germany just kicked out a Turkish diplomat and all of the EU is not happy to Turkey helping illegal immigrants enter the EU through Greece.
These airspace violations are the actions of a regime with nowhere to go except causing trouble with its neighbours and persecuting Kurds etc.
The US and UK - Turkey's "friends" are getting weaker and will probably shift their position as Turkey becomes more belligerent.
There are many anti-Turkish parties getting more votes in Europe (such as the British National Party) and they will slowly change policies..
To be honest, I think the EU would like to have Eastern Thrace in the EU (they get Constantinople and the Straits). But the rest of Anatolia is an economic drain and a demographic nightmare.
---"Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline"
I feel so bad for Greece, NOT! Since the EU debacle you have blackmailed us very step of the way, to the point of supporting some scum in Himara. It's much more than recognizing Kosova. Do you know why Albania has a defense treaty with Turkey? because of you. You have occupied half of Albanian plenty of times when Albania was barely a state, you never feel like you have enough land, now you are choking in it. Then there is Chameria and Greek Orthodox Church spreading propaganda in the South.
In short, this Albania is enjoying your plight. Albanians (Arvanites) saved you once, now they are afraid of speaking Albania in public and other Albanians are derisively called "Turko-alvanos."
History is funny Greeks...now you have no friends, no one wants to start a war with Turks, even USA is on their camp. You aligned with Russia and against US too.
P.S. Turkey knows they will "never" get in EU that's why they do this, or at least not for 20 years. Until then they will be a $2 Trillion economy, 100 million people, and Greece will be bankrupt trying to match them militarily or a vassal state (google Finlandization)
P.P.S. Bulgaria is smart, they have 1 million Turks in there and Turkey is right next door.
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Are you kidding us all? The Ottoman system was an apartheit! Unlike Western Europe, its subjects were allowed to reserve their faith BUT they were legally second class citizens! The churches were to be smaller, without stiples. Christians were to pay higher taxes! The word of a Christion did not stand against tha word of a Muslim in court! The Christians (and Jews) could not seve in the Army or in the administration unless they converted to Islam.
Since the existance of an underclass was useful there were no forced Islamization programs...except in strategic regions like Bosnia, Albania, The Rhodopes, Dobrudja...
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Looks like someone has been reading Kosovo's new (rewritten) history textbooks. What is next, will Alban say that the monastery is Decani is not Serbian? - Oh wait, they already think that:)
Greece is facing difficulte times. The age old enmnity with Turkey gives no signs of relieve. Serbia, Greece's traditional regional ally is weakened and of course is no longer a neighbouring country. Macedonia - the product of the ill fated Serbo-Greek attempt to have a common border is threatening to twist the entire Greek identity by dehellenizing Alexander the Great, St Paul's mission etc. Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline. The ethnic tenssion may reappear. As ambassador Montgomery recentely stated, Greece has protested when the US diplomats met with a Greek citizen claimnig to be repressed after declairing to be of Bulgarian ethnic origin.
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
(Peter Sudyka, 28 July 2009 14:02)
Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession outside the building of European Parliment and some other EU institutions.Such a decision would be the last nail in EU's coffin.
You can say what you want about Greece, but if the Turks ever attack them, the rest of Europe will come to Greece's aid, and then Turkey will be in trouble.
We have united against the Turks before when they attacked us centuries ago, we will do it again.
Ask the average European, who they prefer between Greece and Turkey and who they would support in a war, and don't be surprized of their response.
alban
"So as hard as eu and Greece with its propaganda try to destroy image of turkey you will always fail"
Fail in what? Keeping them out of the EU? Many current members of the EU got in LONG AFTER Turkey submitted it's membership application.
Doesn't this look to you like the EU not wanting Turkey in the club?
Oh, and they have done enough to achieve this image themselves, the Greeks did not need to spread any "propaganda" about them.
"Greece is country that always tries to make trouble and than always ask help from their master’s eu"
Huh? The only thing I know with regards to Greece in the EU is that it is a prosperous country and a favoured tourist destination for EU citizens.
I remember when I was on Creta and Rhodos, I heard only Dutch, English, German and Polish (and Russian). I know people who keep going back to Greece on holiday, that's how amazing it is.
"In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
What nonsense are you talking about? Over 2.5 million Christians (Armenian, Greek and Assyrian) were exterminated by the Turks after WW1!
Another thing is that it was not only the Young Turk movement, but also Abdul Hamid II in the 1800's (up to 300 000) who did the same.
The Greeks did not kill even a tiny fraction of Albanians (who were Nazi sympathizers, might I add) as the Turks did (in fact, not even 1%)!
Hell, they are even massively discriminating against their own muslim brothers, the Kurds, today!
Germany has atoned for its past and tried to catch its war criminals. The Turks deny their genocide!
Go and read a history book before you spout such nonsense here! It is offensive to read! Or did Hoxha burn them all?
Luigi
The key word you used is "partner", which I am fine with, but they are not European and do not deserve to be in the EU. I don't know what you love so much about this country.
szemi
"Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession"
Except for Albania, America and Luigi (and probably Israel too, knowing them).
Mike
Didn't some EU politician say that once? That if Turkey was split, they would take the European part?
In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal
(Alban, 28 July 2009 14:51)
Nonsense. Come to Hungary and just look around or read history books.
Sure Leonidas,nobody need their neighbours,I hope you'll enjoy serbo-rusian friendship,they're the one that you have to deal vith everyday not the neighbours.
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
(Canadian, 30 July 2009 12:25)
Fooling myself? I am American and I know that, first off, most Americans do not even know where the Balkans are. Peter is right. Second off, you are fooling yourself if you think human rights are involved in our decision to intervene in Kosovo. I would need to write a doctoral thesis to list all the human rights violations we have overlooked or helped commit, so get real.
Take for example, the Kurds in Turkey. They have suffered infinitely worse than Albanians yet because Turkey is a client-state of my country, we overlook those crimes. Then we can move on to Latin American dictators that we have supported who carried out assassinations of thousands of civilians in El Salvador and Nicaragua. Ask William Walker about his role in helping to do those. Shall I then mention Saddam? He was a client of ours when he gassed and killed thousands of Kurds in the 1980s and we did not say a word. Please do not make yourself look any sillier by arguing that the US role in Kosovo was humanitarian. Consider this a little history lesson.
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
(Duplex, 28 July 2009 15:06)
Are you sure Duplex ?
hehehehe
look
Excert taken from Bill Clinton's autobiography "My Life" page 697, paragraph 2
" On January 30, Prime Minister Victor Chenomyrdin of Russia came to the White House for his sixth meeting with Al Gore. After they finished their commission business, Chernomyrdin came to see me to brief me on evens in Russia and Yeltsin's prospects for reelection. Just before out meeting, I spoke to President Suleyman Demirel and Prime Minister Tansu Ciller of Turkey. They told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT.
I would suggest the Albanian and the Fyromian "aussie" friends of Turkey to calm down a little. Don't show such envy because Greece is a far more advanced and powerful country than yours. Probably in 30 years time Albania will be like Greece is today...
Turkey is in a pathetic situation as a state. It has one of the higest corruption rates in the world, their people - especially in the east - are almost starving (less than 1000$ per month), and the infrastructure of the country is actually third world. The military capability of Turkey (which is trully high) is only due to the fact that the militants are totally controlling the Turkish "democracy", and they are actually using most of the state funds for military purposes and equipment. Not caring about the turkish people that live under poverty. The moment that Turkey will become "democracy", and their people will be allowed to have certain rights, Turkey will not be able to buy even a bullet... because it is already broke.
But don't compare Turkey with Greece. Greece is a far more advanced and developed country in every aspect and believe me the majority of Turkish people wold DREAM to live like the Greek people live today. And of course Greece is not afraid Turkey. It has the necessary power and military capability to protect herself. Greece just wants to let the Europeans know who is actually the "European wannabe" they negotiate with...
Jason:
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija:
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Now about this nonsense between Greece and Turkey. There was always a big problem for this two state, to start a war within a minutes. That's why they were accepted to NATO in the same year. why, because NATO members could stop the spark between two states. But, Turkey is much more stronger than Greece.
Many people were writing down when Montenegro recognized Kosovo as a independent country, many of this people wrote that, they will travel to Turkey for Holidays. And now, many of you guys are against Turkey.
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
(Canadian, 29 July 2009 22:22)
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija: there was something to be gained for my country and it had nothing to do with altruism. Turkey was vital to the US during the Cold War, and it still is important in our illegal war in Afghanistan. There is no love between the US and Turkey, so do not kid yourself. When Turkey is no longer useful to my country, it will be cast aside like we cast aside Afghans after the USSR collapsed and how we bailed out on the Shia in Iraq after the first Gulf War. Consider this a reality check.
Don't understand this anti-Turkish stance..
Anyway for us in Italy the Mediterrean agenda is far more important than anything else regarding Eu engagement policy..
We see Turkey as a big partner in that context..
I don't think there are too many Americans who even know what the Balkans is.
Also, Greece is not threatening anybody. It is Turkey being aggressive, and it will be Turkey to pay for it. The world is not stupid, they can see who is the provocateur here.
Alexandros wrote: "...Prime Minister...of Turkey...told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT."
This is like in American movies with cops: "Please hands up, don't make me shoot you"
funny, Turks be afraid of Greeks!?
Lol.
@Canadian(in papers...I am pretty sure you are an immigrant fro a Balkan country...)
Who said that Greece is threatening Turkey??? We report to the rest of Europe facts and evidence that Turkey wants conflict with us. You call this a threat?
I will tell you what is a thrat.
Threat is that Turkish F16 fly over Greek islands everyday looking for trouble..
Threat is that Turkey sends illegal immigrants from Afghanistan and Pakistan to Greece and to the rest of Europe destroying economies and societies.
Threat is that TUrkey wants the oil residing in the Greek territory and tries to make illegal research in Greek water.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them think again:
1)Turkey is a third world country,they do not have a military industry and are not able to manufacture weapons(which is very essential if you want to be a great power) but are bying them from the US.
2)Turkey consists 35% of ethnic minorities that hate the Turks(Kurds,Alevites,Arabs,Iranians).
3)The only reason Turkey exists as a state is because they have been propped up by the Anglosaxons until now in order to keep the Russians away from gaining a strategic foothold in Little Asia!
When they leave(which will happen soon)Turkey will suffer the fate of the old Yugoslavia.
Everything in favour of Albania depends solely of the position of the US,forget Turkey,Germany they cannot measure up to the military strength of Russia.
Remember the Russian-Ottoman War of 1878 in which the Ottoman troops were catastrophically defeated and already left Konstantinopel only to be saved by the Brits which back then were the "naval" superpower and threatened to intervene on behalf of them.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
(Trix, 30 July 2009 13:05)
Trix, most of the Albanians who contribute in this site are either from Albanias/Kosova or North America. Yes, I do have relatives who live in Athens but I can't wait from them to return home otherwise they'll become just like the Arvanites, self-hating Albanians.
Unlike many of my compatriots who support Tirkey's EU accession I do not since I do not think Turkey belongs to such club but like almost every Albanian on the face of this planet, including those relatives in Athens, I could never side with the Greeks on any issues, and I am refraining here from using a stronger lanuage.
@Peter
Not in love just numbers..
look at our trade relationship..
Italy -Turkey is worthy as much as Italy with W.B. !!
simple...
And anyway Peter go to Turkey you will be amused this country is far better than any of Balkans countries..
Hey Albanian neighbors why so hostile? You all put too much faith in Turkey and should put more effort into your own needs, but you've given us great insight into what you wish the world would be like.
As far as Turkey's military wiping out the Greeks goes I wouldn't underestimate the Greeks, and don' think for a moment the Greeks will be alone if Turkey tries something. People the world over wide admire the Greeks for their culture and character.
As far as the U.S and UK being Turkey's friends just remember the only real friend of the U.S and UK is their policy to maintain political/economic power across the globe. Thus, the present status quo suits them well, and as I said earlier, they will not tolerate a Turkish incursion of any kind.
Turkey should never, ever be allowed to become an EU member.
they continue to live up with the hope that they can control and do whatever with the Balkans. Stop provocations, stop Turkey's annexation into the EU.
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
In the event of a war, the EU would back Greece, their fellow EU member of years, Turkey would be backed by Al-Qaeda, Taliban and other horrific terrorist groups, like the Bosniaks were.
Religion still plays a big role in Europe, I'm afraid, why else is Turkey kept at the door of EU membership?
The US would not take on the EU on the side of Turkey either, their military is too stretched across the world, so don't expect that the US and UK will drop everything to go save Turkey.
EUasiaMighty
It's called diplomacy, this is what a civilized country would do, but we can't expect the same from Turkey. Greece has actually progressed beyond the Dark Ages, unlike some others.
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Keep dreaming. If it makes you feel better to think I am anything but a white, Anglo-Saxon American, go for it. That said, please know that unlike you, I am a real American and not an immigrant. I happen to work here in Kosovo and I don't buy into my country's policy here after seeing reality on the ground. As far as Kosovo-Metohija goes, I use the proper name for it because I have an undergraduate degree in Slavic Studies and I never use the term "Kosova," even when dealing with Albanian colleagues.
I find it very funny that whenever an American posts something here that is not in favor of Albanians, some Albanians always immediately cry that it must be a Serb in disguise. This is intellectually dishonest and quite silly to believe that ALL Americans are pro-Albanian.
It is also amusing that you cannot refute anything in my previous argument (because it is based on fact) so you cry about me not being American.
Looks like the Turks are up to their old proclivities as usual. Old habits die hard.
I found the previous post about the Balkans enjoying a renaissance while under the Turkish yoke to be particularly amusing and revisionist. Great way to troll though!
@Kreshnik
Look the point here is not the integration of Turkey in EU. I really do not mind Turkey being inside EU. In fact it will be better for all other countries for many reasons. The problem is that Turkey is causing problems as stated to my previous message with all those threats. Turkey has not the right attitude to join EU. As for your compatriots. It is really sad that you have such feelings for Greeks. It is like having those feelings about USA since I assume that you live and work there. How can you live and work in USA since you hate for example the Americans. It is like me working in Turkey. I would not accept to go there working even there were a lot of jobs. And you should consider seriously the fact that Turkey is not helping you despite that you have the same views and religion. And this is my point. As for the Arvanites, they are here hundreds of years. Like the "Americans" who migrated from Europe and Africa they are now Americans. As for your friends/relatives in Athens if they are so bothered they can still leave. Nobody forces them to stay. Anyway PEACE!!!
"For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them..."
To save them from what? From a Serbuian invasion that would bring millions of people back within Serbia against thir will?
If a constant commitment of a foreign power is required just to keep the peace, God help the Western Balkans.
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
---"Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline"
I feel so bad for Greece, NOT! Since the EU debacle you have blackmailed us very step of the way, to the point of supporting some scum in Himara. It's much more than recognizing Kosova. Do you know why Albania has a defense treaty with Turkey? because of you. You have occupied half of Albanian plenty of times when Albania was barely a state, you never feel like you have enough land, now you are choking in it. Then there is Chameria and Greek Orthodox Church spreading propaganda in the South.
In short, this Albania is enjoying your plight. Albanians (Arvanites) saved you once, now they are afraid of speaking Albania in public and other Albanians are derisively called "Turko-alvanos."
History is funny Greeks...now you have no friends, no one wants to start a war with Turks, even USA is on their camp. You aligned with Russia and against US too.
P.S. Turkey knows they will "never" get in EU that's why they do this, or at least not for 20 years. Until then they will be a $2 Trillion economy, 100 million people, and Greece will be bankrupt trying to match them militarily or a vassal state (google Finlandization)
P.P.S. Bulgaria is smart, they have 1 million Turks in there and Turkey is right next door.
Greece is facing difficulte times. The age old enmnity with Turkey gives no signs of relieve. Serbia, Greece's traditional regional ally is weakened and of course is no longer a neighbouring country. Macedonia - the product of the ill fated Serbo-Greek attempt to have a common border is threatening to twist the entire Greek identity by dehellenizing Alexander the Great, St Paul's mission etc. Greece's refusal to recognize Kosovo is preventing reproachment with Albania. The relationship with the only neighbor Greece has somehow reconciled with - Bulgaria is also a bit shakey.Bulgaria may give up the planned constuction of the Bugras - Alexandroupolis pipeline. The ethnic tenssion may reappear. As ambassador Montgomery recentely stated, Greece has protested when the US diplomats met with a Greek citizen claimnig to be repressed after declairing to be of Bulgarian ethnic origin.
Turkey cannot pick and choose which EU guidelines it wishes to follow in the pursuit of EU membership, Greek FM was quoted as saying.
Don't worry, Greek FM, Turkey will never get in the EU, same as Albania and Kosovo never will.
Lets be honest here, a lot of the present EU contries are racist towards muslims and don't want them in EU, no matter how "western oriented" and "pro-usa" they are...
Great news! Another reason for the EU not to take on Turkey as a member and another country on our side!
I know that some people here brag about Turkey being able to fly their planes wherever they want to and that Greece and Cyprus can't do a thing about it, well here we go, they can, and are doing so, and Turkey will have to stop with their bullying if they are so keen on joining Europe, though this is just a drop in the ocean of their problems to overcome.
Stay strong Greece, don't let Turkey intimidate you!
Don't understand this anti-Turkish stance..
Anyway for us in Italy the Mediterrean agenda is far more important than anything else regarding Eu engagement policy..
We see Turkey as a big partner in that context..
Turkey is a country that wishes to become a member of the EU, and believes that EU should follow their will than the opposite. They want to become members only under their terms. They still today refuse to recognise one of the EU members (Cyprus). They are applying pure expansionism having their aircrafts violating the air space of another EU member (Greece) almost everyday (the people that see the turkish aircrafts above their heads everyday happen to be "EU" citizens!). And they are brutally violating the 15 million Kurds inside their country every single day - by killing them, abducting them, terrorizing them.
How can the EU negotiating with such a country for entrance? It is a shame that only France and Greece openly talk about Turkey's shameful behaviour when EVERYBODY else just keep silent. It is a total shame for EU even to talk and negotiate with this country...
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
"We have more Albanians living in Turkey than in Albania. We have more Chechens living in Turkey than in Chechnya. We have more Bosnians living in Turkey than in Bosnia. We have more Kurds living in Turkey than in northern Iraq." Davutoğlu argued that this character of Turkey is an asset for Europe if it continues to be involved in the world scene.
Ahmed Davutoglu-Turkish FM
You can keep all these people
in Turkey Mr Davutoglu and live happily everafter.Europe
doesn't need any of them.
Turkey's behavior towards Greece and Cyprus is a reflexion of the power struggle that has and is still been taking place between the army and the islamic goverment.
There have been a number of army coups in the past and at present there is the "ergenekon" conspiracy in which scores of army officers have been arrested for their participation in it.
The Turkish army -above all-is big business controlling big chunks of Turkey's defence industry and the generals are the main beneficiaries.
On top of that the army controls all drugs and human trafficking into Europe and making millions of dollars in the process.
Clearly, there can be no path for Turkey into the EU as a "privileged member" until there is a withdrawal of the Turkish occupation troops from Cyprus, the reunification of the island as a single state, the return of the ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriot refugees to their homes in the north and the withdrawal of the tens of thousands of Turkish settlers introduced to the occupied region with the deliberate objective of changing the demographic composition of the state of Cyprus.
You can say what you want about Greece, but if the Turks ever attack them, the rest of Europe will come to Greece's aid, and then Turkey will be in trouble.
We have united against the Turks before when they attacked us centuries ago, we will do it again.
Ask the average European, who they prefer between Greece and Turkey and who they would support in a war, and don't be surprized of their response.
alban
"So as hard as eu and Greece with its propaganda try to destroy image of turkey you will always fail"
Fail in what? Keeping them out of the EU? Many current members of the EU got in LONG AFTER Turkey submitted it's membership application.
Doesn't this look to you like the EU not wanting Turkey in the club?
Oh, and they have done enough to achieve this image themselves, the Greeks did not need to spread any "propaganda" about them.
"Greece is country that always tries to make trouble and than always ask help from their master’s eu"
Huh? The only thing I know with regards to Greece in the EU is that it is a prosperous country and a favoured tourist destination for EU citizens.
I remember when I was on Creta and Rhodos, I heard only Dutch, English, German and Polish (and Russian). I know people who keep going back to Greece on holiday, that's how amazing it is.
"In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
What nonsense are you talking about? Over 2.5 million Christians (Armenian, Greek and Assyrian) were exterminated by the Turks after WW1!
Another thing is that it was not only the Young Turk movement, but also Abdul Hamid II in the 1800's (up to 300 000) who did the same.
The Greeks did not kill even a tiny fraction of Albanians (who were Nazi sympathizers, might I add) as the Turks did (in fact, not even 1%)!
Hell, they are even massively discriminating against their own muslim brothers, the Kurds, today!
Germany has atoned for its past and tried to catch its war criminals. The Turks deny their genocide!
Go and read a history book before you spout such nonsense here! It is offensive to read! Or did Hoxha burn them all?
Luigi
The key word you used is "partner", which I am fine with, but they are not European and do not deserve to be in the EU. I don't know what you love so much about this country.
szemi
"Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession"
Except for Albania, America and Luigi (and probably Israel too, knowing them).
Mike
Didn't some EU politician say that once? That if Turkey was split, they would take the European part?
Alexandros wrote: "...Prime Minister...of Turkey...told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT."
This is like in American movies with cops: "Please hands up, don't make me shoot you"
funny, Turks be afraid of Greeks!?
Lol.
Turkey should obviously not violate Athens airspace. I like to hear a response from Turkey as i suspect they have a different take on it.
As far as Turkey joining the E.U, I don't think they should for their own sake. They are already one of the most powerful and strategically located country in the world and joining the E.U would make them just another country among the 28 others. They are doing fairly good on their own economically and politically. This is not a country that needs to join the E.U. If I were them I would only pursue visa liberalization and free trade agreement.
Sure Leonidas,nobody need their neighbours,I hope you'll enjoy serbo-rusian friendship,they're the one that you have to deal vith everyday not the neighbours.
Hey Albanian neighbors why so hostile? You all put too much faith in Turkey and should put more effort into your own needs, but you've given us great insight into what you wish the world would be like.
As far as Turkey's military wiping out the Greeks goes I wouldn't underestimate the Greeks, and don' think for a moment the Greeks will be alone if Turkey tries something. People the world over wide admire the Greeks for their culture and character.
As far as the U.S and UK being Turkey's friends just remember the only real friend of the U.S and UK is their policy to maintain political/economic power across the globe. Thus, the present status quo suits them well, and as I said earlier, they will not tolerate a Turkish incursion of any kind.
The only way Turkey is going to get it is if Greece shoots down one of their planes. I really hope they do it soon, it will put Turkey back in its place in relations to EU. Turks are not Europeans in any sense of the word and have no place in EU.
@Peter
Not in love just numbers..
look at our trade relationship..
Italy -Turkey is worthy as much as Italy with W.B. !!
simple...
And anyway Peter go to Turkey you will be amused this country is far better than any of Balkans countries..
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
(Canadian, 30 July 2009 12:25)
Fooling myself? I am American and I know that, first off, most Americans do not even know where the Balkans are. Peter is right. Second off, you are fooling yourself if you think human rights are involved in our decision to intervene in Kosovo. I would need to write a doctoral thesis to list all the human rights violations we have overlooked or helped commit, so get real.
Take for example, the Kurds in Turkey. They have suffered infinitely worse than Albanians yet because Turkey is a client-state of my country, we overlook those crimes. Then we can move on to Latin American dictators that we have supported who carried out assassinations of thousands of civilians in El Salvador and Nicaragua. Ask William Walker about his role in helping to do those. Shall I then mention Saddam? He was a client of ours when he gassed and killed thousands of Kurds in the 1980s and we did not say a word. Please do not make yourself look any sillier by arguing that the US role in Kosovo was humanitarian. Consider this a little history lesson.
Jason:
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija:
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Now about this nonsense between Greece and Turkey. There was always a big problem for this two state, to start a war within a minutes. That's why they were accepted to NATO in the same year. why, because NATO members could stop the spark between two states. But, Turkey is much more stronger than Greece.
Many people were writing down when Montenegro recognized Kosovo as a independent country, many of this people wrote that, they will travel to Turkey for Holidays. And now, many of you guys are against Turkey.
Turkey will never join the EU because several countries will block it - Germany, France etc.
Do not forget Germany just kicked out a Turkish diplomat and all of the EU is not happy to Turkey helping illegal immigrants enter the EU through Greece.
These airspace violations are the actions of a regime with nowhere to go except causing trouble with its neighbours and persecuting Kurds etc.
The US and UK - Turkey's "friends" are getting weaker and will probably shift their position as Turkey becomes more belligerent.
There are many anti-Turkish parties getting more votes in Europe (such as the British National Party) and they will slowly change policies..
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
(Canadian, 29 July 2009 22:22)
I will tell you and I am American: For the same reason that the US supported Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija: there was something to be gained for my country and it had nothing to do with altruism. Turkey was vital to the US during the Cold War, and it still is important in our illegal war in Afghanistan. There is no love between the US and Turkey, so do not kid yourself. When Turkey is no longer useful to my country, it will be cast aside like we cast aside Afghans after the USSR collapsed and how we bailed out on the Shia in Iraq after the first Gulf War. Consider this a reality check.
In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal
(Alban, 28 July 2009 14:51)
Nonsense. Come to Hungary and just look around or read history books.
I would suggest the Albanian and the Fyromian "aussie" friends of Turkey to calm down a little. Don't show such envy because Greece is a far more advanced and powerful country than yours. Probably in 30 years time Albania will be like Greece is today...
Turkey is in a pathetic situation as a state. It has one of the higest corruption rates in the world, their people - especially in the east - are almost starving (less than 1000$ per month), and the infrastructure of the country is actually third world. The military capability of Turkey (which is trully high) is only due to the fact that the militants are totally controlling the Turkish "democracy", and they are actually using most of the state funds for military purposes and equipment. Not caring about the turkish people that live under poverty. The moment that Turkey will become "democracy", and their people will be allowed to have certain rights, Turkey will not be able to buy even a bullet... because it is already broke.
But don't compare Turkey with Greece. Greece is a far more advanced and developed country in every aspect and believe me the majority of Turkish people wold DREAM to live like the Greek people live today. And of course Greece is not afraid Turkey. It has the necessary power and military capability to protect herself. Greece just wants to let the Europeans know who is actually the "European wannabe" they negotiate with...
In the event of a war, the EU would back Greece, their fellow EU member of years, Turkey would be backed by Al-Qaeda, Taliban and other horrific terrorist groups, like the Bosniaks were.
Religion still plays a big role in Europe, I'm afraid, why else is Turkey kept at the door of EU membership?
The US would not take on the EU on the side of Turkey either, their military is too stretched across the world, so don't expect that the US and UK will drop everything to go save Turkey.
EUasiaMighty
It's called diplomacy, this is what a civilized country would do, but we can't expect the same from Turkey. Greece has actually progressed beyond the Dark Ages, unlike some others.
And now (again) Turkey. Greece is in a big trouble. Turkey is not like Macedonia or Albania. Turkey can occupy Greek territory in 24 hours.
As far as Albania and Kosovo are concerned in your minds Madams and Sirs, do not you worry. If you continue to treat them like in the 90's, there might be another Albanian State in the region soon.
(Duplex, 28 July 2009 15:06)
Are you sure Duplex ?
hehehehe
look
Excert taken from Bill Clinton's autobiography "My Life" page 697, paragraph 2
" On January 30, Prime Minister Victor Chenomyrdin of Russia came to the White House for his sixth meeting with Al Gore. After they finished their commission business, Chernomyrdin came to see me to brief me on evens in Russia and Yeltsin's prospects for reelection. Just before out meeting, I spoke to President Suleyman Demirel and Prime Minister Tansu Ciller of Turkey. They told me that Turkey and Greece were on the brink of military confrontation and IMPLORED ME TO INTERVENE TO STOP IT.
I'd say to greeks think twice before you make threats to Turkey. Everytime there is a dispute between Turks and Greeks, the USA and the UK is on the Turkish side!, wonder why?.
@Canadian(in papers...I am pretty sure you are an immigrant fro a Balkan country...)
Who said that Greece is threatening Turkey??? We report to the rest of Europe facts and evidence that Turkey wants conflict with us. You call this a threat?
I will tell you what is a thrat.
Threat is that Turkish F16 fly over Greek islands everyday looking for trouble..
Threat is that Turkey sends illegal immigrants from Afghanistan and Pakistan to Greece and to the rest of Europe destroying economies and societies.
Threat is that TUrkey wants the oil residing in the Greek territory and tries to make illegal research in Greek water.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Looks like someone has been reading Kosovo's new (rewritten) history textbooks. What is next, will Alban say that the monastery is Decani is not Serbian? - Oh wait, they already think that:)
I don't think there are too many Americans who even know what the Balkans is.
Also, Greece is not threatening anybody. It is Turkey being aggressive, and it will be Turkey to pay for it. The world is not stupid, they can see who is the provocateur here.
For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them think again:
1)Turkey is a third world country,they do not have a military industry and are not able to manufacture weapons(which is very essential if you want to be a great power) but are bying them from the US.
2)Turkey consists 35% of ethnic minorities that hate the Turks(Kurds,Alevites,Arabs,Iranians).
3)The only reason Turkey exists as a state is because they have been propped up by the Anglosaxons until now in order to keep the Russians away from gaining a strategic foothold in Little Asia!
When they leave(which will happen soon)Turkey will suffer the fate of the old Yugoslavia.
Everything in favour of Albania depends solely of the position of the US,forget Turkey,Germany they cannot measure up to the military strength of Russia.
Remember the Russian-Ottoman War of 1878 in which the Ottoman troops were catastrophically defeated and already left Konstantinopel only to be saved by the Brits which back then were the "naval" superpower and threatened to intervene on behalf of them.
Austria and Germany are also pretty vocal against Turkey's EU membership. I only wish that the UK and Italy would join this group, and to a lesser extent Spain and Poland, then it will really be enough to keep them out of EU for sure!
(Peter Sudyka, 28 July 2009 14:02)
Well in reality everybody is against Turkish accession outside the building of European Parliment and some other EU institutions.Such a decision would be the last nail in EU's coffin.
To be honest, I think the EU would like to have Eastern Thrace in the EU (they get Constantinople and the Straits). But the rest of Anatolia is an economic drain and a demographic nightmare.
Alban: "In period of Ottoman Empire no Christian was discriminated no church was destroyed all people with different believe were all equal"
Are you kidding us all? The Ottoman system was an apartheit! Unlike Western Europe, its subjects were allowed to reserve their faith BUT they were legally second class citizens! The churches were to be smaller, without stiples. Christians were to pay higher taxes! The word of a Christion did not stand against tha word of a Muslim in court! The Christians (and Jews) could not seve in the Army or in the administration unless they converted to Islam.
Since the existance of an underclass was useful there were no forced Islamization programs...except in strategic regions like Bosnia, Albania, The Rhodopes, Dobrudja...
Turkey should never, ever be allowed to become an EU member.
they continue to live up with the hope that they can control and do whatever with the Balkans. Stop provocations, stop Turkey's annexation into the EU.
LOL, stop fooling with yourself man, my next door neighbor is from Michigan and have many more Americans at my work place. I know what majority of Americans(real ones) think of Ballkans. The bottom line is that greeks can not make threats to 4th strongest country militarily.
That's suicidal for Greece.
To all Albanians who write to this blog supporting Turkey...
Just think how many of you (and your relatives) work in Greece and make money...
Then think what Turkey has given you??? I will tell you...
NOTHING...They just teach you how to pray to Allah.
(Trix, 30 July 2009 13:05)
Trix, most of the Albanians who contribute in this site are either from Albanias/Kosova or North America. Yes, I do have relatives who live in Athens but I can't wait from them to return home otherwise they'll become just like the Arvanites, self-hating Albanians.
Unlike many of my compatriots who support Tirkey's EU accession I do not since I do not think Turkey belongs to such club but like almost every Albanian on the face of this planet, including those relatives in Athens, I could never side with the Greeks on any issues, and I am refraining here from using a stronger lanuage.
Jason, I don't think any real American would say KOSOVO-MATOHIJA.In that case I am an American too, because I have American citizenship, and I can say too, as an American KOSOVA is a independent country.
Keep dreaming. If it makes you feel better to think I am anything but a white, Anglo-Saxon American, go for it. That said, please know that unlike you, I am a real American and not an immigrant. I happen to work here in Kosovo and I don't buy into my country's policy here after seeing reality on the ground. As far as Kosovo-Metohija goes, I use the proper name for it because I have an undergraduate degree in Slavic Studies and I never use the term "Kosova," even when dealing with Albanian colleagues.
I find it very funny that whenever an American posts something here that is not in favor of Albanians, some Albanians always immediately cry that it must be a Serb in disguise. This is intellectually dishonest and quite silly to believe that ALL Americans are pro-Albanian.
It is also amusing that you cannot refute anything in my previous argument (because it is based on fact) so you cry about me not being American.
"For all those exited Albanians claiming that after the US retreats Turkey is going to save them..."
To save them from what? From a Serbuian invasion that would bring millions of people back within Serbia against thir will?
If a constant commitment of a foreign power is required just to keep the peace, God help the Western Balkans.
Looks like the Turks are up to their old proclivities as usual. Old habits die hard.
I found the previous post about the Balkans enjoying a renaissance while under the Turkish yoke to be particularly amusing and revisionist. Great way to troll though!
@Kreshnik
Look the point here is not the integration of Turkey in EU. I really do not mind Turkey being inside EU. In fact it will be better for all other countries for many reasons. The problem is that Turkey is causing problems as stated to my previous message with all those threats. Turkey has not the right attitude to join EU. As for your compatriots. It is really sad that you have such feelings for Greeks. It is like having those feelings about USA since I assume that you live and work there. How can you live and work in USA since you hate for example the Americans. It is like me working in Turkey. I would not accept to go there working even there were a lot of jobs. And you should consider seriously the fact that Turkey is not helping you despite that you have the same views and religion. And this is my point. As for the Arvanites, they are here hundreds of years. Like the "Americans" who migrated from Europe and Africa they are now Americans. As for your friends/relatives in Athens if they are so bothered they can still leave. Nobody forces them to stay. Anyway PEACE!!!
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