Sarajevo media are reporting that a group of men and women associated with Serbia's Obraz movement shouted offensive slogans in Srebrenica on Sunday night.
i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
(roberto, 14 July 2009 05:18)
Well, we certainly feel the threat. The word "growing" is a mild understatement for this country. It is a "sui genesis". Most of your family wasn't shot 1944 into Danube, right?
If not the dismembering of the country at Trianon Treaty, the "arrow-cross" catastrophe would not happen. The analogy of Trianon Treaty for Yugoslavia is it's violent break-up. In order to prevent Obraz and such from rising the international community would need to apply every force to keep as much of the old country together as possible.
Bosnia is the saddest example: if every effort was made to keep that "small Jugo" together - why not the same was made for the large one? Geopolitical reasons? Same applies to Kosovo.
I also see double standards applied to Drenica clan. Why is Drenica clan favored? Why any politician does talk to these criminals? We protest mullah rule in Iran, but same standards should apply to Kosovo.
it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low"
Really? How many people in parliament, church or other powerful positions support them?
(aRTA, 13 July 2009 15:50)
You tell us. You seem to know the answer here.
I would safely say NONE.
This disgusting behaviour is not representing the Serbs. I wouldn't even try to explain it, let alone excuse it but if this was done in Kosovo by Albanians I am sure there would be many excuses like they killed us so they deserved it etc. etc.
The Chetniks fought the Nazis. That's why Draza was even on the cover of Time magazine. They also helped over 500 U.S. airmen escape capture by the Nazis. This group best not associate themselves with the Chetniks at all.
Actually as i have repeated many times, i am very concerned with the spread of the right wing,throughout europe, throughout the world. i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
as for obraz, no one says that they represent the majority of serbia. they are a hateful, extremist group and need to be dealt with to the full extent of the law (assuming there are such laws in RS.) but the values represented by the radicals are well known, and pretty horrifying to us, and they do seem to represent a large # of serbs. not to mention the comments that i read here, day in and day out. so pls, don't all play the innocent card. either take a stand agaisnt hate and racism and anti-semitism (consistently!) or stop the pretense. when i think of the vicious kinds of comments directed towards and about ethnic albanians here, and occasionally towards jews and others, it is just a pretty nasty business. and i almost never see ethical retorts to these vicious characterizations.
or the endless lies and denials about srebrenica, that we were all treated to this past week.
so no, most of the posters here probably do not belong to overtly fascist groups like obraz (i hope), but many of the underlining values and attitudes contribute and empower the worst of the extremists.
It`s a PR-disaster for RS. Their police/intelligence service is responsible for that. You cant simply let some neonazis running free on such a day! Even at football games they sort them out.
Commemorating the deaths of enemy soldiers who burned down scores of Serbian villages, killed thousands of Serbs in the area and even slaughtered their livestock and attacked their churches is provocative.
It's called war and Alija Izetbegovic said he would sacrifice peace for "independence" and thus, with the Croats, illegally seceded and initiated the bloodshed.
The first victims of the war were Sarajevo Serb civilians and the Muslim death squads killed scores of Sarajevo Serb civilians in the first few days of the war kicking off. This was disclosed in Bosnian Muslim army records released in 1997.
as deplorable is this behaviour is, it is the most difficult challenge of balancing freedom of speech and expression with laws against hate.
On one side, these people have a right to their own opinions (as twisted as others may find them), and on the other side the other people have the right to not be scared through means of intimidation and hatred.
All "modern" western countries have this difficult challenge, and many times individual solutions are not palpable by one side or the other, and in worst case, both sides are unhappy with the solution.
I hope one day this behaviour will disappear, but honestly, so long as there are differences, humans will focus on those differences in difficult times and exploit them to the benefit of "their" team over the detriment of "the other" team.
This really doesn't make sense to me. Firstly Chetniks fought against the Nazi's and are strongly opposed to them so how can they be linked to neo-nazism?
Also, Chetniks faught against fascism and communism but not for the eradication of Islam. If they are making such claims then the "Chetnik" name is being abused or the media (B92) is spinning this somewhat.
If anyone claims otherwise then why was Draža Mihailović, the Chetnik leader awarded the Legion of Merit by the US and Croix de guerre by France. Also why do Chetniks march in ANZAC day parades in Australia and New Zealand? All WWII Allies.
Personally I believe in respect for all innocent victims and until the US, Muslims and Serbians all come clean with respect to crimes committed in BiH, we will continue to see people coming out with extremist views.
According to the local papers in the Bosnian capital, this group "chanted insults directed towards the victims and in support of the Chetnik movement, calling for eradication of Islam". The problem is the Serbs make up the numbers in Srebrenica. To justified them selfs and to minimize their guilt and try to rewrite history full of excuses for them selfs.
Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
(Dave, 13 July 2009 14:09)
And according the article they were escorted out by R. Srpska police. At the same time we had over 2000 strong nazi demo across the U.S. consulate in Budapest. Magyar Gárda did "re-group", police did nothing and the square was full of notorious people.
I am really disappointed, our permanent "voice" from San Francisco is much less concerned with the imminent neo-nazi threat in Hungary (in particular, towards local Jews) - but he rather choses a windmill-battle against Belgrade.
On the other side, we are living in Budapest, so we see it much better. Slowly, the color of the country is changing to "brown" and it is not a sad joke like the little pathetic Obraz, it is THE "brown plague". They got 14% of the last vote.
But probably "San Francisco" does not believe what "San Jose" does say... until it is to late.
This is reprehensible behaviour, and actually quite pitiful. However, before the haters from other factions - whether in Pristina or San Francisco - leap on the bandwagon, it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low: if Obraz stood for election, it would struggle to poll 200 votes. Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
This really doesn't make sense to me. Firstly Chetniks fought against the Nazi's and are strongly opposed to them so how can they be linked to neo-nazism?
Also, Chetniks faught against fascism and communism but not for the eradication of Islam. If they are making such claims then the "Chetnik" name is being abused or the media (B92) is spinning this somewhat.
If anyone claims otherwise then why was Draža Mihailović, the Chetnik leader awarded the Legion of Merit by the US and Croix de guerre by France. Also why do Chetniks march in ANZAC day parades in Australia and New Zealand? All WWII Allies.
Personally I believe in respect for all innocent victims and until the US, Muslims and Serbians all come clean with respect to crimes committed in BiH, we will continue to see people coming out with extremist views.
According to the local papers in the Bosnian capital, this group "chanted insults directed towards the victims and in support of the Chetnik movement, calling for eradication of Islam". The problem is the Serbs make up the numbers in Srebrenica. To justified them selfs and to minimize their guilt and try to rewrite history full of excuses for them selfs.
Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
(Dave, 13 July 2009 14:09)
And according the article they were escorted out by R. Srpska police. At the same time we had over 2000 strong nazi demo across the U.S. consulate in Budapest. Magyar Gárda did "re-group", police did nothing and the square was full of notorious people.
I am really disappointed, our permanent "voice" from San Francisco is much less concerned with the imminent neo-nazi threat in Hungary (in particular, towards local Jews) - but he rather choses a windmill-battle against Belgrade.
On the other side, we are living in Budapest, so we see it much better. Slowly, the color of the country is changing to "brown" and it is not a sad joke like the little pathetic Obraz, it is THE "brown plague". They got 14% of the last vote.
But probably "San Francisco" does not believe what "San Jose" does say... until it is to late.
This is reprehensible behaviour, and actually quite pitiful. However, before the haters from other factions - whether in Pristina or San Francisco - leap on the bandwagon, it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low: if Obraz stood for election, it would struggle to poll 200 votes. Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
The Chetniks fought the Nazis. That's why Draza was even on the cover of Time magazine. They also helped over 500 U.S. airmen escape capture by the Nazis. This group best not associate themselves with the Chetniks at all.
Actually as i have repeated many times, i am very concerned with the spread of the right wing,throughout europe, throughout the world. i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
as for obraz, no one says that they represent the majority of serbia. they are a hateful, extremist group and need to be dealt with to the full extent of the law (assuming there are such laws in RS.) but the values represented by the radicals are well known, and pretty horrifying to us, and they do seem to represent a large # of serbs. not to mention the comments that i read here, day in and day out. so pls, don't all play the innocent card. either take a stand agaisnt hate and racism and anti-semitism (consistently!) or stop the pretense. when i think of the vicious kinds of comments directed towards and about ethnic albanians here, and occasionally towards jews and others, it is just a pretty nasty business. and i almost never see ethical retorts to these vicious characterizations.
or the endless lies and denials about srebrenica, that we were all treated to this past week.
so no, most of the posters here probably do not belong to overtly fascist groups like obraz (i hope), but many of the underlining values and attitudes contribute and empower the worst of the extremists.
Commemorating the deaths of enemy soldiers who burned down scores of Serbian villages, killed thousands of Serbs in the area and even slaughtered their livestock and attacked their churches is provocative.
It's called war and Alija Izetbegovic said he would sacrifice peace for "independence" and thus, with the Croats, illegally seceded and initiated the bloodshed.
The first victims of the war were Sarajevo Serb civilians and the Muslim death squads killed scores of Sarajevo Serb civilians in the first few days of the war kicking off. This was disclosed in Bosnian Muslim army records released in 1997.
it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low"
Really? How many people in parliament, church or other powerful positions support them?
(aRTA, 13 July 2009 15:50)
You tell us. You seem to know the answer here.
I would safely say NONE.
This disgusting behaviour is not representing the Serbs. I wouldn't even try to explain it, let alone excuse it but if this was done in Kosovo by Albanians I am sure there would be many excuses like they killed us so they deserved it etc. etc.
It`s a PR-disaster for RS. Their police/intelligence service is responsible for that. You cant simply let some neonazis running free on such a day! Even at football games they sort them out.
i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
(roberto, 14 July 2009 05:18)
Well, we certainly feel the threat. The word "growing" is a mild understatement for this country. It is a "sui genesis". Most of your family wasn't shot 1944 into Danube, right?
If not the dismembering of the country at Trianon Treaty, the "arrow-cross" catastrophe would not happen. The analogy of Trianon Treaty for Yugoslavia is it's violent break-up. In order to prevent Obraz and such from rising the international community would need to apply every force to keep as much of the old country together as possible.
Bosnia is the saddest example: if every effort was made to keep that "small Jugo" together - why not the same was made for the large one? Geopolitical reasons? Same applies to Kosovo.
I also see double standards applied to Drenica clan. Why is Drenica clan favored? Why any politician does talk to these criminals? We protest mullah rule in Iran, but same standards should apply to Kosovo.
as deplorable is this behaviour is, it is the most difficult challenge of balancing freedom of speech and expression with laws against hate.
On one side, these people have a right to their own opinions (as twisted as others may find them), and on the other side the other people have the right to not be scared through means of intimidation and hatred.
All "modern" western countries have this difficult challenge, and many times individual solutions are not palpable by one side or the other, and in worst case, both sides are unhappy with the solution.
I hope one day this behaviour will disappear, but honestly, so long as there are differences, humans will focus on those differences in difficult times and exploit them to the benefit of "their" team over the detriment of "the other" team.
Commemorating the deaths of enemy soldiers who burned down scores of Serbian villages, killed thousands of Serbs in the area and even slaughtered their livestock and attacked their churches is provocative.
It's called war and Alija Izetbegovic said he would sacrifice peace for "independence" and thus, with the Croats, illegally seceded and initiated the bloodshed.
The first victims of the war were Sarajevo Serb civilians and the Muslim death squads killed scores of Sarajevo Serb civilians in the first few days of the war kicking off. This was disclosed in Bosnian Muslim army records released in 1997.
This is reprehensible behaviour, and actually quite pitiful. However, before the haters from other factions - whether in Pristina or San Francisco - leap on the bandwagon, it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low: if Obraz stood for election, it would struggle to poll 200 votes. Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
According to the local papers in the Bosnian capital, this group "chanted insults directed towards the victims and in support of the Chetnik movement, calling for eradication of Islam". The problem is the Serbs make up the numbers in Srebrenica. To justified them selfs and to minimize their guilt and try to rewrite history full of excuses for them selfs.
This really doesn't make sense to me. Firstly Chetniks fought against the Nazi's and are strongly opposed to them so how can they be linked to neo-nazism?
Also, Chetniks faught against fascism and communism but not for the eradication of Islam. If they are making such claims then the "Chetnik" name is being abused or the media (B92) is spinning this somewhat.
If anyone claims otherwise then why was Draža Mihailović, the Chetnik leader awarded the Legion of Merit by the US and Croix de guerre by France. Also why do Chetniks march in ANZAC day parades in Australia and New Zealand? All WWII Allies.
Personally I believe in respect for all innocent victims and until the US, Muslims and Serbians all come clean with respect to crimes committed in BiH, we will continue to see people coming out with extremist views.
The Chetniks fought the Nazis. That's why Draza was even on the cover of Time magazine. They also helped over 500 U.S. airmen escape capture by the Nazis. This group best not associate themselves with the Chetniks at all.
it should be pointed out that the number of such creatures in Serbia is mercifully low"
Really? How many people in parliament, church or other powerful positions support them?
(aRTA, 13 July 2009 15:50)
You tell us. You seem to know the answer here.
I would safely say NONE.
This disgusting behaviour is not representing the Serbs. I wouldn't even try to explain it, let alone excuse it but if this was done in Kosovo by Albanians I am sure there would be many excuses like they killed us so they deserved it etc. etc.
Every country has a small minority of its population whose political extremism strays into mental illnss. It's a problem, but one that should be kept in proportion.
(Dave, 13 July 2009 14:09)
And according the article they were escorted out by R. Srpska police. At the same time we had over 2000 strong nazi demo across the U.S. consulate in Budapest. Magyar Gárda did "re-group", police did nothing and the square was full of notorious people.
I am really disappointed, our permanent "voice" from San Francisco is much less concerned with the imminent neo-nazi threat in Hungary (in particular, towards local Jews) - but he rather choses a windmill-battle against Belgrade.
On the other side, we are living in Budapest, so we see it much better. Slowly, the color of the country is changing to "brown" and it is not a sad joke like the little pathetic Obraz, it is THE "brown plague". They got 14% of the last vote.
But probably "San Francisco" does not believe what "San Jose" does say... until it is to late.
Actually as i have repeated many times, i am very concerned with the spread of the right wing,throughout europe, throughout the world. i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
as for obraz, no one says that they represent the majority of serbia. they are a hateful, extremist group and need to be dealt with to the full extent of the law (assuming there are such laws in RS.) but the values represented by the radicals are well known, and pretty horrifying to us, and they do seem to represent a large # of serbs. not to mention the comments that i read here, day in and day out. so pls, don't all play the innocent card. either take a stand agaisnt hate and racism and anti-semitism (consistently!) or stop the pretense. when i think of the vicious kinds of comments directed towards and about ethnic albanians here, and occasionally towards jews and others, it is just a pretty nasty business. and i almost never see ethical retorts to these vicious characterizations.
or the endless lies and denials about srebrenica, that we were all treated to this past week.
so no, most of the posters here probably do not belong to overtly fascist groups like obraz (i hope), but many of the underlining values and attitudes contribute and empower the worst of the extremists.
i do believe that they are growing in hungary, it doesn't surprise me, ataman, it just isn't my ongoing personal experience. if i lived there or even visited regularly i'd probably feel differently.
(roberto, 14 July 2009 05:18)
Well, we certainly feel the threat. The word "growing" is a mild understatement for this country. It is a "sui genesis". Most of your family wasn't shot 1944 into Danube, right?
If not the dismembering of the country at Trianon Treaty, the "arrow-cross" catastrophe would not happen. The analogy of Trianon Treaty for Yugoslavia is it's violent break-up. In order to prevent Obraz and such from rising the international community would need to apply every force to keep as much of the old country together as possible.
Bosnia is the saddest example: if every effort was made to keep that "small Jugo" together - why not the same was made for the large one? Geopolitical reasons? Same applies to Kosovo.
I also see double standards applied to Drenica clan. Why is Drenica clan favored? Why any politician does talk to these criminals? We protest mullah rule in Iran, but same standards should apply to Kosovo.
as deplorable is this behaviour is, it is the most difficult challenge of balancing freedom of speech and expression with laws against hate.
On one side, these people have a right to their own opinions (as twisted as others may find them), and on the other side the other people have the right to not be scared through means of intimidation and hatred.
All "modern" western countries have this difficult challenge, and many times individual solutions are not palpable by one side or the other, and in worst case, both sides are unhappy with the solution.
I hope one day this behaviour will disappear, but honestly, so long as there are differences, humans will focus on those differences in difficult times and exploit them to the benefit of "their" team over the detriment of "the other" team.
It`s a PR-disaster for RS. Their police/intelligence service is responsible for that. You cant simply let some neonazis running free on such a day! Even at football games they sort them out.
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