"High level of corruption in Kosovo"

Amer:
My comment (#8) above basically says that you cannot really compare the 'polls' from Serbia & Kosovo - so that a TI corruption index of '3.9' for Kosovo doesn't mean that it is less 'corrupt' than Serbia with a TI corruption index of '3.4' (see reasons given above).

In response, you said:
> The TI document deals with this system for gathering data - they say that citizen reports generally correlate with the opinions of experts (in all countries, not just Kosovo). People generally understand the society they're living in.

Suggest you have another more detailed look at the 'TI document': http://www.transparency.org/content/download/43788/701097

In it, they say pretty much what I've said above. Here's an excerpt (page 14):
> When comparing the assessments of Chile and Japan, experts appear to have a slightly more positive assessment of corruption levels than the general public. The opposite is true in Azerbaijan, Belarus, Cambodia, Iraq and Kuwait, where the public appears to regard corruption as less pronounced than what is reflected in the expert views compiled for the 2008 cpi.

Figure 10 on the same page shows that there is indeed a correlation between 'expert opinion' & 'public perception' as you've said, BUT it also shows just how weak the correlation is & just how poor a fit there is between 'experts & the 'public'.

Might add that instead of actually showing the correlation co-efficient together with figure 10, the authors buried it in the footnotes at the end of the report. It's 0.67.

In the case of Serbia, 'expert opinion' is actually formed from 6 different surveys which have been 'merged' giving an index of 3.4 with a confidence range of (3.0 to 4.0) & a highlow range of (2.7 to 4.9) - ie: probably somewhere between 3 & 4, but possibly as low as 2.7, or as high as 4.9.

Kosovo however doesn't have any 'expert opinion' cited, so more properly, you should have said in your comment above above: "(in most countries, excluding Kosovo)".

Albania however does. 'Expert opinion' cites CPI index of 3.4, confidence range of (3.3 to 3.4) & high/low range of (3.2 to 3.5) - ie: probably somewhere between 3.3 & 3.4, but possibly as low as 3.2, or as high as 3.5.

If there was a strong correlation, the graph shown in figure 10 would have all the data points (representing different countries/entities/regions) concentrated about a line running from the bottom left to the upper right (y=x).

Is not the case. Instead data points are all over the place & vertical error bars are NOT shown - & these would show the agreement between the 'experts' & the 'public' to be even more tenuous.

About all figure 10 really shows is that if the 'experts' think a place is really corrupt (or vice versa), then the 'public' will usually agree - but even here, not always!

For Serbia incidentally, the 'experts' & the 'public' actually agree fairly well.

For Kosovo, cannot say this as there is no 'expert opinion' BUT as I've already said in my previous comment, K-albanians are the 2nd most 'optimistic' people in the world (according to the same 'transparency international' whose report we're discussing), & actually were THE MOST optimistic a year before.

And this would surely be reflected in their attitudes to their government, bureaucracy. etc., which would skew the results of any poll such as TI's.

Albania curiously enough is not listed in TI's report but does have an 'expert opinion' listed.

But can say that Kosovo is probably significantly more corrupt than is Albania given the recent war, & the degree of albanian mafia penetration into the government there as cited by the BND & others.

Which indicates an 'expert opinion' below that of Albania - ie less than 3.4, as opposed to the 'public perception' of 3.9.

And that is the reality, 'optimism' not withstanding.

What?? A province run by war criminals and petty theifs is ripe with corruption?

Say it ain't so. . .

Tell us something we don't already know. All banana republics have stagering corrupion.

"the worst offenders were the Kosovo Electric Corporation"

No wonder Serbs in Kosovo have their power cut off every day!

Corruption in Kosovo?
You can not be serious!

Surely with all the International presence in the province, there cannot be any corruption.
KFOR/NATO, EU, EULEX, ICO, UNMIK, Albright Inc.,USAID, Bondsteel, the list goes on....
I don't believe it!

MB,Ireland

Once again, how is this news?

Can just one Albanian here just say, "Yes, there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo", instead of trying to whitewash the truth by immediately pointing out that Serbia is bad too? Why do Albanians compare themselves to serbs so much anyway? Are we your idols?

Just another waste of precious resourses within this report for it's a given albanians are a mafia run community, rife with corruption. It has to be for their economic base is founded on drug smuggling, prostitution, and armed rebellion.

Breaking news.....Smoking is bad for one's health.

Alban & Amer:
Have already commented on this report, but hey, since you've brought it up again..

..here is the context under which the figures you've cited were generated:

Results were obtained by completing a multi-choice questionaire assigning ratings of 1 (least corrupt) to 5 (most) for 6 categories by about a thousand 'locals'.

Is not in any way, shape or form, an objective analysis by experts.. is in fact nothing but an 'opinion poll'.

In addition, unlike Serbia, those polled in Kosovo were exclusively urban & probably from pristina - given the pollsters used have their offices there.

One question that immediately arises concerns the selection process for the 'locals' (in pristina, K-albanians almost certainly).

And even if the selection process wasn't influenced by either EULEX or 'pristina', another question is the degree that 'patriotism' will skew the results when comparing different regions like Serbia & Kosovo.

The same group 'transparency international' have also said that the population in Kosovo (read K-albanians in pristina) are the 2nd most 'optimistic' in the world - despite their government, huge unemployment, low wages, etc.

This also has to be taken into account when comparing different regions.

As an example, serbs on this site are all over the spectrum when it comes to support &/or criticism of the serbian government.

However K-albanians here will rarely criticise their leaders in pristina - despite the fact that their government has been described by the BND as 'a country in which organized crime is the form of government'.

And that is reflected in the 'poll results' you've cited.

Blind optimism however doesn't change the reality.

"High level of corruption in Kosovo"

-- Well, DUH.

People who live in glass houses ...

From "Global Corruption Barometer", Transparency International, June 2009, page 28 http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/gcb/2009

(Lower is better in the following rankings)

Country/Territory Kosovo Serbia
Political Parties 3.8 *4.1*
Parliament/Legislature 3.4 3.8
Business/Private Sector 3.7 3.9
Media 2.3 3.7
Public officials/Civil Servants 3.3 3.9
Judiciary *4.0* 3.9
Average Score 3.4 3.9

"Once again, how is this news?"

From B92: Report: Bribery still way of life in Serbia
"The poll shows that 18 percent of respondents stated that they had offered a bribe of some form over the course of the last 12 months.

The average for the region is four percent. "
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=06&dd=03&nav_id=59585

'Results were obtained by completing a multi-choice questionaire assigning ratings of 1 (least corrupt) to 5 (most) for 6 categories by about a thousand 'locals'.'

The TI document deals with this system for gathering data - they say that citizen reports generally correlate with the opinions of experts (in all countries, not just Kosovo). People generally understand the society they're living in.

As an Albanian from Kosovo I say: Yes, there is a corruption in Kosovo.
If this continue I will NOT vote next election. Hell with thieves. They are taking taxpayers money and that is so wrong. Whoever steal people's money he/she should pay the price, I don't see that happen in Kosovo so far. Mostly small fish pay the price and for a big fish they get away with it.

'If this continue I will NOT vote next election. Hell with thieves. '

Please - this is the worst thing you can do, just what the thieves want: no oversight. Join that NGO that's going to watch at the election sites if you don't trust the process. Run for a local office yourself - even if you don't win, you'll learn a lot. Write letters to the local newspapers saying you're disgusted with corruption. Democracy is not a spectator sport, people have to get involved.

Winston, YES, there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo, and it's not a problem for me to say it.

The problem is that a certain part of the Serbian public life seems to say "look at that, corruption in Kosovo, the exception in the Balkans" ... there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo, but this is not an exception in the Balkans. And Serbia has a high level of corruption, so no lessons please ...

"Once again, how is this news?"

From B92: Report: Bribery still way of life in Serbia
"The poll shows that 18 percent of respondents stated that they had offered a bribe of some form over the course of the last 12 months.

The average for the region is four percent. "
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=06&dd=03&nav_id=59585

What?? A province run by war criminals and petty theifs is ripe with corruption?

Say it ain't so. . .

People who live in glass houses ...

From "Global Corruption Barometer", Transparency International, June 2009, page 28 http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/gcb/2009

(Lower is better in the following rankings)

Country/Territory Kosovo Serbia
Political Parties 3.8 *4.1*
Parliament/Legislature 3.4 3.8
Business/Private Sector 3.7 3.9
Media 2.3 3.7
Public officials/Civil Servants 3.3 3.9
Judiciary *4.0* 3.9
Average Score 3.4 3.9

Can just one Albanian here just say, "Yes, there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo", instead of trying to whitewash the truth by immediately pointing out that Serbia is bad too? Why do Albanians compare themselves to serbs so much anyway? Are we your idols?

Tell us something we don't already know. All banana republics have stagering corrupion.

"the worst offenders were the Kosovo Electric Corporation"

No wonder Serbs in Kosovo have their power cut off every day!

Just another waste of precious resourses within this report for it's a given albanians are a mafia run community, rife with corruption. It has to be for their economic base is founded on drug smuggling, prostitution, and armed rebellion.

Breaking news.....Smoking is bad for one's health.

Alban & Amer:
Have already commented on this report, but hey, since you've brought it up again..

..here is the context under which the figures you've cited were generated:

Results were obtained by completing a multi-choice questionaire assigning ratings of 1 (least corrupt) to 5 (most) for 6 categories by about a thousand 'locals'.

Is not in any way, shape or form, an objective analysis by experts.. is in fact nothing but an 'opinion poll'.

In addition, unlike Serbia, those polled in Kosovo were exclusively urban & probably from pristina - given the pollsters used have their offices there.

One question that immediately arises concerns the selection process for the 'locals' (in pristina, K-albanians almost certainly).

And even if the selection process wasn't influenced by either EULEX or 'pristina', another question is the degree that 'patriotism' will skew the results when comparing different regions like Serbia & Kosovo.

The same group 'transparency international' have also said that the population in Kosovo (read K-albanians in pristina) are the 2nd most 'optimistic' in the world - despite their government, huge unemployment, low wages, etc.

This also has to be taken into account when comparing different regions.

As an example, serbs on this site are all over the spectrum when it comes to support &/or criticism of the serbian government.

However K-albanians here will rarely criticise their leaders in pristina - despite the fact that their government has been described by the BND as 'a country in which organized crime is the form of government'.

And that is reflected in the 'poll results' you've cited.

Blind optimism however doesn't change the reality.

'Results were obtained by completing a multi-choice questionaire assigning ratings of 1 (least corrupt) to 5 (most) for 6 categories by about a thousand 'locals'.'

The TI document deals with this system for gathering data - they say that citizen reports generally correlate with the opinions of experts (in all countries, not just Kosovo). People generally understand the society they're living in.

Once again, how is this news?

Winston, YES, there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo, and it's not a problem for me to say it.

The problem is that a certain part of the Serbian public life seems to say "look at that, corruption in Kosovo, the exception in the Balkans" ... there is a lot of corruption in Kosovo, but this is not an exception in the Balkans. And Serbia has a high level of corruption, so no lessons please ...

'If this continue I will NOT vote next election. Hell with thieves. '

Please - this is the worst thing you can do, just what the thieves want: no oversight. Join that NGO that's going to watch at the election sites if you don't trust the process. Run for a local office yourself - even if you don't win, you'll learn a lot. Write letters to the local newspapers saying you're disgusted with corruption. Democracy is not a spectator sport, people have to get involved.

"High level of corruption in Kosovo"

-- Well, DUH.

Amer:
My comment (#8) above basically says that you cannot really compare the 'polls' from Serbia & Kosovo - so that a TI corruption index of '3.9' for Kosovo doesn't mean that it is less 'corrupt' than Serbia with a TI corruption index of '3.4' (see reasons given above).

In response, you said:
> The TI document deals with this system for gathering data - they say that citizen reports generally correlate with the opinions of experts (in all countries, not just Kosovo). People generally understand the society they're living in.

Suggest you have another more detailed look at the 'TI document': http://www.transparency.org/content/download/43788/701097

In it, they say pretty much what I've said above. Here's an excerpt (page 14):
> When comparing the assessments of Chile and Japan, experts appear to have a slightly more positive assessment of corruption levels than the general public. The opposite is true in Azerbaijan, Belarus, Cambodia, Iraq and Kuwait, where the public appears to regard corruption as less pronounced than what is reflected in the expert views compiled for the 2008 cpi.

Figure 10 on the same page shows that there is indeed a correlation between 'expert opinion' & 'public perception' as you've said, BUT it also shows just how weak the correlation is & just how poor a fit there is between 'experts & the 'public'.

Might add that instead of actually showing the correlation co-efficient together with figure 10, the authors buried it in the footnotes at the end of the report. It's 0.67.

In the case of Serbia, 'expert opinion' is actually formed from 6 different surveys which have been 'merged' giving an index of 3.4 with a confidence range of (3.0 to 4.0) & a highlow range of (2.7 to 4.9) - ie: probably somewhere between 3 & 4, but possibly as low as 2.7, or as high as 4.9.

Kosovo however doesn't have any 'expert opinion' cited, so more properly, you should have said in your comment above above: "(in most countries, excluding Kosovo)".

Albania however does. 'Expert opinion' cites CPI index of 3.4, confidence range of (3.3 to 3.4) & high/low range of (3.2 to 3.5) - ie: probably somewhere between 3.3 & 3.4, but possibly as low as 3.2, or as high as 3.5.

If there was a strong correlation, the graph shown in figure 10 would have all the data points (representing different countries/entities/regions) concentrated about a line running from the bottom left to the upper right (y=x).

Is not the case. Instead data points are all over the place & vertical error bars are NOT shown - & these would show the agreement between the 'experts' & the 'public' to be even more tenuous.

About all figure 10 really shows is that if the 'experts' think a place is really corrupt (or vice versa), then the 'public' will usually agree - but even here, not always!

For Serbia incidentally, the 'experts' & the 'public' actually agree fairly well.

For Kosovo, cannot say this as there is no 'expert opinion' BUT as I've already said in my previous comment, K-albanians are the 2nd most 'optimistic' people in the world (according to the same 'transparency international' whose report we're discussing), & actually were THE MOST optimistic a year before.

And this would surely be reflected in their attitudes to their government, bureaucracy. etc., which would skew the results of any poll such as TI's.

Albania curiously enough is not listed in TI's report but does have an 'expert opinion' listed.

But can say that Kosovo is probably significantly more corrupt than is Albania given the recent war, & the degree of albanian mafia penetration into the government there as cited by the BND & others.

Which indicates an 'expert opinion' below that of Albania - ie less than 3.4, as opposed to the 'public perception' of 3.9.

And that is the reality, 'optimism' not withstanding.

As an Albanian from Kosovo I say: Yes, there is a corruption in Kosovo.
If this continue I will NOT vote next election. Hell with thieves. They are taking taxpayers money and that is so wrong. Whoever steal people's money he/she should pay the price, I don't see that happen in Kosovo so far. Mostly small fish pay the price and for a big fish they get away with it.

Corruption in Kosovo?
You can not be serious!

Surely with all the International presence in the province, there cannot be any corruption.
KFOR/NATO, EU, EULEX, ICO, UNMIK, Albright Inc.,USAID, Bondsteel, the list goes on....
I don't believe it!

MB,Ireland