Tuesday, 30.06.2009.
15:08
New York-based Palgrave Macmillan is to publish a book on July 7 portraying Serb medieval hero Miloš Obilić as an "Albanian knight", daily Politika writes.
Izvor: Politika
pre 14 godina
That there are no Americans to write history, this world would be a much nicer place..
how many Americans accepted the Nazis in the 2nd World War..
not even a strange kind of their policy and attitude.. America needs war..
so it will soon start a war but to prevent it..
pre 14 godina
One more thing, Do you know something about Serbs during Stefan Nemanja? I mean, where it was first located, what was the name? If u would know that, you would know who build churches. Just don't tell me that Stefan Nemanja was born in Albania, and his name was bla bla bla
pre 14 godina
if he was born in Albania or no, that I don't know, but you can be born in south America, and still be a Serb. + that region was a part of Serbia. We have songs about Milos Obilic, and battle on Kosovo, much, much, older than your country is...
Do you even know how u got your country?
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INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
(Kosovar, 3 July 2009 10:42)
Her work will be a huge success alright when she rakes in a fortune from deluded Albanians. That gives me an idea.
I know what i'm going to do. I'm going to write a book and say that Elvis was Albanian and watch the moolah flow in.
So you say that Serbia's claim to Kosmet is bogus, well I have a question here Einstein. Who built the churches and monasteries?
...the lizard people.
Are you David Icke himself?
pre 14 godina
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.(Webber)
Definitely but most of these are also of albanian origin from Serbia. For years they were reported as Yugoslavs then serbs finally media and programs dealing with crimes became more straight and reported them as albanians from serbia or kosovo albanians.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians.(WEbber)
Despite the not too perfect serb-hungarian relations(and belive me I Could constract a much longer list of atrocities committed by both)except some Gárda and Jobbik members this is not the case.Hungarian political elite have always been "good" at choosing allies and we know the consequences.Sad to say hungarians have always been good servents of german intersts even against their own in the region.Unfortunately the bootlicking(szarosnyelvû) mentality besides albanians is very characteristic to hungarians.Anyway have you ever read a book of some known hungarain expert of middle ages like Mályusz Elemér for example.There you could learn about 'friendly'albanian merceneries who killed off a significant part of hungarian population under the turkish wings.
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there. (Geni,)
That is perhaps because you do not understand any hungarian word while I happen to know at least the form of albanian names.And simply I have never heard of any significant albanian achievement in the field of mathematics.
pre 14 godina
in the very first day this article appeared here I wrote a short comment.
actually what was the reason to censor or to be precise, to withhold my comment about this book?
was it the mentioning of the term "inferiority complex"?
or that I find it amusing how some businessmen are writing "books on demand" ...which will be sold only among albanian nationalists?
whatever it is, B92 once has once more shown their unpfrofessional face.
pre 14 godina
INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
pre 14 godina
'On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.'
The Hungarian influence here is apparently stronger than I realized.
pre 14 godina
Szemi, you wrote:
"In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals."
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians. Relations between Hungarians and Serbs have been "less than perfect" for about four centuries now. Shall I remind you of what happened to some Hungarian villages in the early 1990s in Slavonia? Hungarians remember, even if you forget. But then we could talk about Partisan atrocities against Hungarians after WWII, and then we should also mention massive Hungarian atrocities against Serbs during the war; and the same for WWI; and 1848-49; and you can go right back to the 17th century.
All along the way Hungarians and Serbs mutual "love and understanding" is evident.
Leave Albanians out of it, Szemi. They are one European people with whom Hungarians have never had a single fight in all of history.
pre 14 godina
Next thing you know Michael Jackson was albanian. Come on folks people write books about everything distorting to truth changing history etc. Focus on the things we can change not some folkore book someone is writing just to write.
pre 14 godina
We have already seen that movie! In Macedonia Greek heros from the antiquity and Bulgarian once from the Middle Ages and the Revival are regularly presented as 'Macedonian".
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Milan,
Exactly as you wrote.Both Podolski and Klose speak fluent polish and declared themselves Poles several times on polish TV.Now that we have Wimbledon I think they both can be compared to Nestor who is originaly Nestorovic and needless to say none of his parents was canadian.I wonder if albanians will ever try to convert Djokovic into Djokoviq just because in his childhood he started playing tennis near Kosovo.
pre 14 godina
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there.
@ Milan,
I think you misunderstood Marinels. He did not mean 28 000 deaths of the Scanderbeg SS division. He was refering to the 28 000 Albanian partizans killed by Nazis and their collaborators.
When he mentioned Scanderbeg, he was refering to the Albanian hero who fought against the Turks in the 15th century.
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This is all excellent fun. Already there are 100+ posts. But this number is surely more than the number of Dollars this book will earn - who will *really* buy it at $50 a pop? Sure, it will find its way into a few 'learned' libraries, but those copies will be bought by some NATO/EU stooge. I suppose one or two local entrepreneurs (i.e. drug barons / traffickers) with a taste for the kitsch might buy a copy to grace some tastefully decorated villa. But what *real* person is going to stump up $50 for a politically expedient re-imagining of a historical event just because it was written by a cheerleader for the recently 'independent' Kososo. Oh, and it might (we hope) really annoy a few Serbs also. Actually, said Serbs are already rolling on the floor helpless with laughter over this load of twoddle.
If anyone does actually buy the scribblings of this "useful idiot", please post a review. I'll read it once I dry my eyes...
pre 14 godina
Marinels:
"Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!!"
Vojvodina peoples are mostly SERBS. Hungarians are MINORITY.
"I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here."
Klose is not German - his mother was Polish and father described themselves as Silesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Klose)
Podolski is 100% Polish - hie father and mother was polish and his name "Podolski" is typical polish. He said in 2008 that he has Polish blood in him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Podolski).
Both - Klose and Podolski speak polish in home and both have polish wives.
Sorry man - but it's false example.
"The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks."
???? Do You know how many peoples died fron hands of fascists on whole Yugoslavia?? How many peoples died from hands od fascist 21 SS Division "Skanderberd"??
Much more than 28000 Albanian fascist "heroes"
"Die SS-Division Skanderbeg sollte zur Partisanenbekämpfung in Jugoslawien eingesetzt werden. Während des Sommers operierte sie im Kosovo und im Norden Mazedoniens weniger als militärischer Verband, denn als Terrororganisation gegen die Zivilbevölkerung. Eine unbekannte, aber zweifellos große Zahl von Serben wurde innerhalb weniger Wochen ermordet bzw. aus dem Kosovo vertrieben. Schmidhuber meldete schon im April 1944, dass 40.000 Serben aus dem Kosovo vertrieben worden waren. Der SS-Führer ging davon aus, dass noch mehr als 100.000 Serben vertrieben werden sollen."
"Am 28. Juli 1944 ermordeten Angehörige der Division im Dorf Veliko 380 Einwohner, darunter 120 Kinder, und setzten 300 Häuser in Brand. Die Juden im Kosovo wurden, soweit sie nicht hatten fliehen können, gefangen genommen und ins KZ Bergen-Belsen deportiert. In Skopje unterstand der Einheit ein Lager, in das die mazedonischen Juden verbracht wurden, bevor man sie in deutsche KZs abtransportierte. Die Gewalt der SS-Einheit richtete sich auch gegen die Volksgruppe der Roma."
Translate please and don't speak more about "Albanian heroes" ;)
pre 14 godina
Marinels wrote: After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???
Well indeed I used Vojvodina(vajdaság)mainly for crosing on my way to Bg and Kosovo.So it seems that albanian lack the sense of topology as well.Actually I co-worked in Kosovo with polish and hungarian military personal as well as former UMNIK spoksmen hungarian Kakukk György.So I happen to be not such an outsider anyway.
Knowing your one side mentality I fully understand that those who do not sing albanian song are a bit inconvinient to you on this forum .I would however warn you that this forum is run by a serbian media organ so do not try to steal it and dictate rules.You can allow this kind of arrogance as long as you are under Nato mama's skirt.As to hungarians from Vojvodina I know and hosted a lot of them at my home and well their attitude towards albanians is rather mixed.In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals involved mainly in narco business(together with gypsies fully control this branch).UDI has some support mainly among members of far right,commies and extreme liberals otherwise the majority of society is unintersted.
Marinals wrote We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists
As to bunch of communist I would rather keep silent because the UDI in central and eastern european countries was mainly supported and forced by those "democrats" who were the most eager commies of the region not so long ago simply now they lick the boots of some brusselits and guys in Washington.Had it not been for Comrade TIto you would have been kick out of Kosovo finaly the same way Germans were kicked out of Poland after forced colonizatin lasting several centuries.
pre 14 godina
That's just funny. I'll tell you just this. If Milos Obilic was albanian knight,how is it possible that you can't find even one albanian with that name?! Milos is serbian name. You can find thousands of serbs with that name.
pre 14 godina
I don't understand why so many people are expressing high emotional feelings towards Albanians for this book. At the end the author is not Albanian, and not every book written about history is true.
But what I know, is also that not every history myth is true either. There is no country or nation on earth that doesn't have national historical figures they look upon who are not filled with myth, I truly believe that Serbs and Albanians make no exception.
In the end reading it doesn't hurt anyone, you don't have to believe what you read and to believe that you can stop books for being published or information to go through is an idea which finds no ground in our globalized world.
pre 14 godina
Marinels, too bad that you haven't mentioned Fascist Albania during ww2, genocide on 10000 Serbs in Kosovo&Metohija, expulsion of 100000. There was albanian partizans during ww2 like there was italian partzans, but both countries were primarily fascist states in ww2. In other hand comparing to 29000 albanian (at the end of the war) partizans there was whole Serbian nation that fought and suffered under occupators. I will mention thath Albanians in northern Greece massacred Jews. Have you heard that story?
pre 14 godina
“Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons”
After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???? We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists telling us stories about suxhuks and Russian kitchen. You said you don’t want Vojvodina back but you are begging to the Serbs almost every day about the statue. Even today you have an article about it. Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!! No at all since we have seen quite different view from the most of Hungarian minority here in the course of time. I don’t think any reason as an Albanian to bias any issue between Polish and German people for example. For the second time please, what the hell are you doing here???
“You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.)”
My statements are based on the information accessible to everyone. Here you have some extract from his background:
“Klose's father is from an ethnic German family and thus they were permitted to settle as Aussiedler in West Germany.”
I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Miroslav_Klose
The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks. The most valuable consideration comes from the victims of the WWII the Jews who fully respect us that not a single Jew was killed in Albanian hand during the war. Their support for Kosovo just confirms the facts.
“You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories”
During the communists era the isolation of the country didn’t give the talents any opportunity to participate in international games. In order to see Albanian names on the doors of departments or websites of Nobel prizes (two of them) actors of Hollywood or scientists you better visit the west oriented source of information and not propagandistic and old era archives. Even one of the best ex Yugo actor namely Bekim Fehmiu was of Albanian origin.
pre 14 godina
The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
[link]
(Webber, 2 July 2009 17:20)
Bwaaahaaahaaahaaa :D So - only Albanians described Miloš Obilić as "Albanian knight" ;)
pre 14 godina
(szemi, 2 July 2009 15:24)
On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.
pre 14 godina
The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=10&status=jedna&vest=149807&title_add=Iznosim%20albansku%20pri%C4%8Du&kword_add=Kosovski%20boj%2C%20ana%20di%20lelio
pre 14 godina
Before the slavs came in the Ballkans there where Ilyrians which everyone knows they'r albanian decent.
pre 14 godina
"Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian."
No, obviously he was Belarusian - what else could "кабыла" be?
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I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority (Marinels, 2 July 2009 13:48)
Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons.Attaman happens to be half russian half hungarian while I am half polish half hungarian.We have been brought up in circumstances when a good sense of humour helps to survive.We simply like lo laugh and joke about some things and you albanians with your childish comments provide a good ground for it.You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.) You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories.
pre 14 godina
Hi everybody,
It is really amaizing to go through these comments... I had a feeling that everyone of you has lived on 1389, this is ridicoulus... One thing is sure that none of balcan countries has teached to their children the real history, the history has been manipulated in order to rise nationalism that in fact was and still is a "bum-a-rang" for balcan countries. Nor serbs nor albanians can prove exactly who the man was that killed the Sulltan. If serbs say so, where is his land? his remainings of house? where is his tombe? where are facts? probably he was just an invention after Sulltans death! who knows... in the end does not change anything whomever he was. One thing is true that the batle of Kosovo was a batle of balcan people against turks, so there were bullgarians, hungarians, serbs, albanians and for this there facts that have remained in the archives of turkish museums. Also what is fact that the batle of Kosovo was a lost batle for balcan countries, after the turks won the batle of Kosovo they occupied all the region.
So my dear ballkanians do not get angry for these things, lets do more research, find facts and lets accept the history as is and not a fabricated history.
Bottom line: there is an investigation going on about europian identity, in a laborator through ADN material, up to now the results are showing that: italians make 8.5%, albaninas 7.4% and the greeks 6.9%. these are facts what genetics are showing.
pre 14 godina
To Marinels
“Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.”
As I can see from plethora of comments above, nobody is going to dispute this line – it seems everybody’s eagerly awaiting it to happen.
And please don’t concentrate on Balkans only – there is a whole wide world out there, so many misteries are waiting to be solved! And who better to solve them, then known champions of arts, literature and science, renowned worldwide for their contributions to progress of humanity?
pre 14 godina
There's one thing that's sure about Miloš Obilić's ethnic identity: Being a knight he would have been offended to be told that he had ANYTHING in common with Serbian or Albanian peasants.
He probably would have challenged any noble who said such a thing to a duel; while a peasant who made such a suggestion would have been lucky to survive the day.
He would have looked down on most of the participants in this forum (including myself), because I'm afraid none of us would have met his social and ethical standards.
Whether he was Serbian (I suppose he was) or Albanian (why not?) he was a Christian, and a noble. He would not have cared much about ethnicity - he surely associated with other noble Christians, regardless of that.
pre 14 godina
Marinels - please tell me how many "Albanian knights" can lived in 14th century Kosovo, if in Turkish cadastral tax census from 1455 (Branković lands) we can read, that on this territory were:
13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
So - where is place for Albanian nobles (knights was part of noble class)???? If In 1455 here were only 46 Albanian dwellings (there were more Vlach dwelling than Albanian!!!!) - so how many K-Albanians can fought in Battle of Kosovo in 1389????
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As it seems this topic has become one of the most discussed in the last days. At the beginning some of the pro Serbian camp took this topic only as a joke or at least they tried to present it in that way. The fact of being so hot topic seems to be not so irrelevant based on the ridiculous responses of the most of harsh nationalists who want in all ways to consider as discard the facts that they don’t event now (since the book is not yet on the hand). This kind of nationalist vary from the outsiders very far from Serbia to the desperate members of minorities within Serbia who have hard to accept that fact that they are and still will be for very long time citizen of “beloved” Serbia but nationals of other nation while Albanians are free to decide for their future. Anyway let me express my opinion as following:
The topic seems to be complex with all meanings of this word. The Serbs at this moment are interested to keep the Milos Kopiliq as the Serbian hero (who killed the sultan) but indeed they are more interested to defend him as being Serb more than Serb for the very simple reason. If he assumedly would be Albanian then all the propaganda a would have been nothing than bubbles. It means that firstly the Serbs were not the only ones fighting against Turks in BoK where the participation of Albanians until now was excluded and secondly the origin of Milos would indicate that at that time Kosovo was inhabited by Albanians as well. The Serbs could be terribly scared from these conclusions since they should review their long time propaganda and myth created not for the sake of the history but for the deformation of history in their favor. The arguments of Serbian side in many issues seem to be not much valid anymore. Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.
I have often read from the harsh nationalist Szemi and the “philosopher” Ataman many comments about jokes or inferiority & superiority among Albanians and other nations let alone many offences toward Albanians. Concerning the last new positions of you and Albanians ( I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority ) it is worthy to mention that you can feel very well over there and joke all the day about sudxhuks or whatever but you know that what can be joke for you is not for the others and vice versa.
Albanian struggle lasted about 87 years and it was in 1999 finalized with the victory and freedom yet with very high price. Therefore you are free to develop any strategy in order to feel superiors as Albanians are, and not begging to the Serbs every month for so called statute. That is enough to understand who is now superior and inferior. Don’t forget something last. Albanians have won everything thorough sacrifices and nobody has given our freedom as gift until now.
For the one who pretend the origin of Albanians from Dagestan or whatever feel free to visit this link:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/42643/The-Byzantine-Empire#ref=ref476167
Thank you all and have a nice day.
pre 14 godina
@ 85, SRBOSLAV
"I read on some Albanian website that they had polar bears in the "Albanian Alps" together with snowleopards and lamas"
True.They had also apes in Albanian Alps. All the animals lived in a perfect harmony - no atrocities of any kind, just endless love. The apes were sitting on enormously tall trees picking bananas and feeding them to the rest of animals who could not reach them. All these inhabitants became angels and flew all over the world to spread their good deeds.
But their good nature continues to live in the humans from that region.
We all know how the Albanians are incapable of committing any atrocity. And to honor the memory of those tall banana trees they declared their own, independent, Banana Republic...
pre 14 godina
Guys, please calm down! All this has been written about by Serbs - and with no sense of outrage until now. Before you get too angry, please read these authors:
Rade Mihaljčić writes of Albanian myth in his The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition, tr. M. Hrgović et al., (Belgrade, 1989), in particular on pp. 93-5.
On p. 93 Mihaljčić mentions the romantic and unsupported theory, propagated by Dragutin Kostić, that Miloš Obilić "seems to have come from a region where there has been a distinctive fusion of Serbian and Albanian populations".
More interesting, and seemingly more objective, is another work mentioned by M.:
В. Ћајкановић, Мотиви прве арнаутске песме о боју на Косово, Архив, vol. 1, no. 1-2 (1923), pp. 68-77. -
Čajković says of the Albanian myth: "It is an older and more primitive version of Serbian legend, in general, in its specific local, Kosovo form."... and "When I was in Elbassan with my squadron during the Albanian operations of 1912, I heard about some Albanians who were said to be descendents of Miloš Obilić. In Ohrid, I had the opportunity of seeing a sword (a very ordinary one which was certainly younger than the eighteenth century) which was supposed to have belonged to Miloš. All this goes to show that Miloš was a hero with a cult and a traditions all of his own among both Albanians and Serbs. Thus he is not only a Serbian but an Albanian hero, too."
Also - something not by a Serb:
A. Шмаус, Косово традицији код Арнаута, ППНП vol. 3, no. 1 (1936)
So, Serbian - and other - historians have known of these old, popular Albanian myths/epics for a very long time and have found them interesting and worth noting in their own work.
Translating this Albanian epic into English is a great service, and does not denigrate Serbs in any way.
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"In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola.Is he maybe Serb?"
(adrianlehman, 1 July 2009 22:18)
Adrian - Do You know family history of this albanian poet?? He was ALBANIZED SERB. When he was young, he learn in SERB ORTHODOX SCHOOL in Skadar. On this territory still live Serbian minority.
So - any other evidence of use name of Miloš by REAL ALBANIAN?? ;)
pre 14 godina
"God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)"
But, but, but, don't say its not true?!!? ;-) I read on some albanian website that they had polar bears in the "albanian alpes" toghether with snowleopards and Lamas, are you saying that its not true??????
It must be Milosevic propaganda to discourage tourism to the "albanian alpes" to look at these amazing animals there ;-)
pre 14 godina
This is really unnerving to say the least. I am a history major about wrap up my master's and this is just flat out disappointing. It is common knowledge Obilic is Serbian. I have NEVER heard anything to counter this. I never heard of this professor or read her book. Maybe she has evidence? I doubt it.
If her claim is as false as it sounds then the historical community will bash her into submission.
I am just disturbed because Palgrave Macmillan is a respected publisher of history books. I am just sad they would print something that seems so terribly false.
pre 14 godina
Why all this heat? Leave the question of Milos's origin to the historians. The poor lady only studied Albanian epic songs dealing with the Battle of Kosovo! Or, maybe the Albanians should not have been allowed to sing their songs (because due to the objection of commentators above).
pre 14 godina
Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
(Logic, 1 July 2009 23:28)
True. Just look at Mr. Hashish.
pre 14 godina
Albanians are not the only ancesstors of Illyians. Illyrians used to live on territory which spreaded to the borders between Slovenia and Croatia. There are much more ancestors of Illyrians in Bosnia then in Albania let alone in Kosovo.
Ilyrians were not a people. They were bunch of tribes.
Albanian homeland is Dagestan.
pre 14 godina
I thought the Pope was Albanian...but then again wasn't Elvis Presley, Joseph Stalin and JFK?
pre 14 godina
I can't wait for her next book titled....
Stongest Allies in History
Jews and Nazis
pre 14 godina
@ poster No. 68
As per prof. Banac, the book represents "a labour of love"
Once upon a time "Zmajs" used to visit the beautiful women by night in their chambers. And the lucky women would give a birth to supernatural heroes.
It appears that over the time "Zmajs" became less picky in regard to beauty and sex, thus the labours are producing kitschy books with even kitschier introductions.
Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
pre 14 godina
they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
(szemi, 1 July 2009 17:11)
Maybe, but I did see some good exemptions once in a while. The best to watch are debates between Greeks and Albanians about fustanella on Youtube. I don't know, but they should rater ask their boss (wife/gf). She may suggest, it's more important what is under it, than who invented it.
pre 14 godina
The name doesn´t mean a thing in History. There are many Albanians of orthodox faith in Albania named Milos, In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola. Is he maybe Serb? The battle of Kosovo was not fought by only Serbs, But Milos Obilic was certainly a Serb and this book it simply tacles a topic in an unresearched way, by an amateur writer.
pre 14 godina
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 16:40)
Podolski is 100% polish nationality - he have only german passport. Podolski and Klose before they started playing for Germany can play in both polish or german national team. They decided play for Germany only becouse Germany is better team, but Podolski still declare that he is polish.
About Milos Obilic - can Albanians explain how many Albanians have name "Milos"?? I don't know any Albanian with this name, but lot of Serbs.
pre 14 godina
There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
(adrianlehman, 30 June 2009 20:49)
Actually, only you, albanians, speak about thath so-called proofs while entire world still cant find any proof of what you say. Albanian and ellyrian languages belong to two different groups (SATEM and CENTUM) so albanian language tells us that Albanians are not desendents of ellyrians.
As for Milos being Serb, there are turkish and other sources telling us so.
pre 14 godina
It's really sad!
I hope Serbian governement will react about this history fabrication by kosovo Albanians. They should sue the the publisher and the author of the this so called history book.
If we don't react they could try again with some other part of Serbian history. We have already witnessed naming Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries as "Albanian"!
pre 14 godina
They even started saying that Maria Teresa was albanian.
This entire propaganda has been started only a few years ago. If there were any debatable parts of history between the Serbs (who have actually survived for 500 years under Turks thanks to their songs which praise the heroes of the Battle), why come up now? :)
And when a Croat writes an introductory to this book, like one did, you can see what it is, without any "links" and "sources" at all.
pre 14 godina
What is scary it looks as Serbs looking for Excuse to bash on Albanians. and then expect them to be in one country. Milos obilic/Kopilic is Serbian Hero. this lady is not Albanian and even if she was is one person representing the nation.
Please stop thinking in the past this is the reason we have so many issues, Who cares what happend in 1300 hundred. Look forward only solution is North Mitrovica to Serbia Bujanovc to Kosovo.
We are not evolved enouh to live together maybe in 200 years and that if we dont look the past
pre 14 godina
The world has gone mad! They now claim this church too. It is an old albanian church according to them!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31hbmMtS8E
pre 14 godina
There is little info of the battle of Kosovo in 1389. But also, although it was in 14th century, it was heard of in the rest of Europe and written down. If you try to find these records, you will find that the Serbs stopped the Turks for a while at Kosovo (both had heavy losses, many consider it a stalemate, since the Turks returned some 40 years later. it was a loss in the long run for the Serbs), and praises of various rulers and characters who lived at the time.
Albanians have also most likely even been in league with the Turks, with their territorial pretensions to the northeast manifesting even then.
pre 14 godina
szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Well I think we have learned a lot on this forum about their mentality.They know no jokes and take everything seriously.Again IMO a very deep inferiority complex is in the background.Is it possible that between Gdansk and Athens they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
pre 14 godina
You can talk all you want.
'Anna Di Lellio has afforded us a rare insight into an alternative - Albanian - tradition of the Battle of Kosovo. This valuable collection, meticulously translated, edited and commented, represents a labor of love that is simultaneously of great importance for all students of the Balkan past.' - Ivo Banac, Bradford Durfee Professor of History, Yale University
I am getting my hands on one.
pre 14 godina
'Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use.'
Today, sure, but in the oldest church records of births in Kosovo, Albanian names alternat with Slavic names in the same family - an "Albanian" father might have a "Serbian" son who then has an "Albanian" son himself.
In a book on the Ottoman Empire I read a long time ago, a man living in Thessalonika described his family: one brother lived in Durres and was an Albanian, another lived in Istanbul and was Turkish, and he himself was Greek. So what did nationality mean then? About as much as being from a U.S. state means today, it seems: it's where you live, pay your taxes, and eventually pick up the local dialect.
pre 14 godina
MILAN
I have heard this story before, of Mieszko I being German. It amuses me more than it offends, shows how desperately frustrated those German nationalists are ;)
szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Marinels
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
pre 14 godina
“I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.”
The object of discussion was the book about the origin of Milos Kopiliq. I didn’t say surely that he is Albanian but I asked you to provide reliable sources that he was truly of Serbian origin (not collection of disputed Serbian sources). Therefore I don’t have to provide sources of being Albanian but everybody has a right to discuss the new facts and arguments which come up. You reaction with words such as satirical humor or stupid was childish which makes me to believe that you rate very high the Serbian sources/fairytales and dispute very easily the other (the author is not Albanian at all). In such case I personally wouldn’t react without knowing the content and the arguments since you pretend to be unbiased. If u were a Serb of course I would expect you to dispute the book in the first moment for the reasons everybody knows.
“Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?”
Please refer to the content below:
In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid
“And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek”.
I would never call anybody stupid when she/he says that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek or whatever. Instead I would kindly ask for the facts and arguments (not from Albanian sources) in order to justify the claim and counter facts from our (Albanian) side. You are welcome anytime
pre 14 godina
Piotr,
I am not afraid of germans turning Zawisza Czarny into their hero.AS opposed to albanians they do not suffer of inferiority complex.However If albanians multiply at current rate in 100 years they will be knock,knock,knocking on Poland's door.Then they will try to turn Zawisza Czarny into their hero by all means.Of course first comes Vasil Levski since bulgaria is a bit closer geographicly .
pre 14 godina
Everybody please calm down. Old folk songs depicting Milos Obilic are not history, they are old folk songs. This is a translation of an Albanian epic song. Not a history. Similar Albanian (and Bulgarian, and Croatian) epic songs have been known and noticed by outstanding Serbian historians for a very long time. One of the best, Rade Mihaljcic, mentions them in his wonderful book, The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition. Translations of these folk songs should be welcome by Serbs because they show how influential Serbian history and tradition were. This should be a point of pride - and Milos Obilic remains a Serbian hero. He's great enough to become an Albanian one too
pre 14 godina
Marinels
"Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it."
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/emmert.htm
I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.
Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?
And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek.
"You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so."
Can you give an example of what you are saying, because I don't agree with this.
"You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was."
I never said that the Slavs were the only contributors against the Turks, when did I ever say that anywhere?
The biggest victory carried out against the Turks was at Vienna, which was made up of Slavic (Polish and Ukrainian), Germanic (Austrian and German) and Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) soldiers, they all contributed to victory.
You assume far too much.
pre 14 godina
In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid.
pre 14 godina
Well, according to the article this house publishes books mainly in the field of social sciences.
Looks to me they are merely expanding into fiction as well. That's alright, I guess.
pre 14 godina
Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 08:50)
According to some german books, creator of polish state - Mješko I - was germanic nationality (with name "Dagome") ;)
So - some "pseudohistorians" need to support nationalistic claims to any territory with revoke history. If Miloš Obilić was Albanian and in battle of Kosovo fought "albanian knights" - than Kosovo land must be albanian, If Mješko I was germanic - than territory of Poland must back to Germany etc.
But I believe that these pseudohistorians are very small minority.
pre 14 godina
what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
(arion, 1 July 2009 08:38)
But Sultan was killed somehow. They do not like to mention much about it. According them, "Nikola, the killer" did allegedly do it. Him being Albanian is mildly speaking a phantasy.
pre 14 godina
Come on guys. I'm Albanian and i know he is your hero. We Albanians have nothing to do this book. Your heroes are your heroes, our heroes are our heroes. God bless.
pre 14 godina
“I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.”
Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it.
“I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so”
You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so.
“Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.”
You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was.
pre 14 godina
"Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
No ties to Kosovo, eh? Smells like more of the same old propaganda to me. It is quite amusing though considering no one but Albanians in the US or English speaking world will buy this. Heck, it is hard to get anyone to read any book these days...
pre 14 godina
Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
(Russian, 1 July 2009 00:12)
Jesus, you are RIGHT! Shame, shame... :(
Me old idiot, I should not write at 2 AM.
pre 14 godina
To All
Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian.
pre 14 godina
what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
pre 14 godina
I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.
I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so.
Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
pre 14 godina
Did everyone know that Milosevic was actually Albanian too!?
pre 14 godina
ahahaahahha!!!!!!
pre 14 godina
I believe there is even a more deep rooted conspiracy here that nobody has picked up on yet.
The US government is just a false puppet state for Albanians who want to start a new world order of the Albanian race. "Greater Albania" is actually going to start with taking over the whole of Europe and then the entire world.
Kosovo and the present day blatant modification of historical facts is just the first step in claiming the planet Earth for the almighty Albanian race.
In 100 years time every single person in the world will be speaking Albanian and bowing down to the Supreme Emperor of the World Agim Ceku.
Every single person past and present will be known as being Albanian! Heed my words...
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
(Rebel, 30 June 2009 16:55)
Well I know that we live in a world of devalued words(just think about the following ones:democracy,freedom)but mistaking courage with stupidity may be a bit too much.
pre 14 godina
who cares, no one will buy the book anyway.
pre 14 godina
Ataman,
Thank you for the link.Good old memories .Many jokes I have not
heard for more than 2 decades.I laughed off my head reading them but at one moment something crossed my mind and I had to stop laughing.I realized that after all albanians may be right.It is very possible that Obi-Lic was a member of the famous albanian Obi klan.
The most famous member of this klan was Obi-Wan Kenobi . In certain paintings about Obi-Lic it looks as if he had a lightsaber which can be a proof that he might be related to this KLan.
pre 14 godina
Just for the sake of an argument, what if really he was what the book said. What would be wrong in it. At that time people were not devided like today in nationalities, but rather on faith. So it would not have been impossible for him to be an Albanian, or a Romanian, or Another ethnic background. Here one can clearly see that wjho is really an emancipated and accepting person, and not negatively oriented for anything it is Albanian.
I have a solution, if I may, do you know his grave? Do you know the descendents of it's familly (He must'ov had a familly? right?), and do a genetic comparison. We all might be suprised what it would come out.
pre 14 godina
My God, how many names out there can be distorted and made to sound like another nationality.
We have all borrowed something from each other over centuries. There are too many names which sound similar names from countries on another continent.
Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use. Even J.K. Rowling is more credible than this "author".
pre 14 godina
Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
pre 14 godina
"Worth to read the "Wiki" in German"
(Ataman, 30 June 2009; 21:56)
Indeed.
So, he (Milos) was born in Dvoriste, Pocerina, but then in both Kobilje near POzarevac and Dvoriste near Golubac and Pozarevac is not in Pocerina... Golubac even farther from...
Milos -der Liebliche was Nikola - Car Lazar's wife Milica's brother who was engaged or married to Mara, his own sister's daughter...
Where is the proverbial german precision,to separate clearly the legend, speculations, historical facts?
pre 14 godina
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
(radio303, 30 June 2009 22:48)
Not sure, she is the best looking (?!!??!!!) - but her "ARGUMENTS" are quite overwhelming... to say the least. :(
Nooo.... When it comes to more important part of the life than politics - than Vlora Citaku for president!!! At least in that case no one does dispute the ethnic background and V.C. wins hands down and miles ahead.
pre 14 godina
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA there is not a single alban named Milos. That is so hilarious.
pre 14 godina
BTW: just googling on "Nikola Vratkovic", it turns out that Albanians know about him and of course they already have a 100% proof, Nikola Vratkovic (and thus Queen Milica) was... guess, who? You guessed correctly, Sioux - but not Illyrians ;)
Hence my earlier statement about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and Triệu Thị Trinh does not needs to be corrected.
@Szemi - a famous Hungarian joke, you maybe know...
Q: "what is the most famous sentence in Madách' most famous work?"
A: "Enver küzdj és bízva bízzál!"
(an other version can be found here, huge collection of old political jokes:
http://mek.niif.hu/00100/00137/html/02.htm )
pre 14 godina
Obilic is from old historic France! Or Gaul, as the region was called at that time. Usually the name was written "Obelix" there...
God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)
pre 14 godina
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
(Ataman, 30 June 2009 17:18)
Ataman,
don´t do that to me, please ; )
pre 14 godina
Could be, Logic - but somehow here İdris-i Bitlisî does sound more realistic. "Кабыла" is indeed a "mare" in Russian, too - but if I wake up my Russian feet first, I can't imagine a warrior would be nicknamed "Кабылич" or "Кабылович". There is a saying "Кабыла не лошадь, баба не человек" ("a mare is not a horse... " oh, well, male sexism had no borders...)
On the other hand, "Miloš, the killer" from Turkish point of view is pretty plausible.
If indeed "Miloš" ( = "the liked one") was the nickname of Nikola Vratković, the brother of Queen Milica, than we probably have one mystery less.
To consider: both "Nikola" and "Mikola" versions were used frequently. Because of alliteration, a "Mikola" who is popular with ladies could easily become "Miloš".
pre 14 godina
"Lellio is a guest professor"
Or maybe is schoolgirl?? ;)
pre 14 godina
Milos Obilic was also known as Milos KoBilic, not "KoPilic". Mid XV and early XVI century he was mentioned in some chronicles as Milos Kobilac and Milos Kobilovic.The origins of both Obilic and KoBilic have been explained in two legends. According to the one explaining the name KoBilic, Miloc was suckled by a mare till the age of seven, and thanks to the mare-milk, he gained and showed enormous strength from the earliest days of his life.Albanian KOPILIC, most likely came either as mispronunciation of KoBilic, or as mocking connection to the word "kopile" -bastard. The root of the word "kopile"? To the best of my knowledge (I might be wrong, though) in Vlachs Romanian living in Serbia it simply means kid, child. How the word got the meaning bastard don't ask me.
How he became an Albanian hero we all know.
pre 14 godina
equally to say, the only Serb ever existed was aleksandar obrenovic. Except for his two twin grandsons, naser oric and stipe mesic.
any living citizen of Serbia has in his genes a trace of albanian tribal clans, delije, and grobari (or, originally, delijqe and grobarxi).
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
so much left to become known in this world.
pre 14 godina
"According to the author’s biography, Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
Well that says it all. I guess she was paid a good amount by the Albanian propaganda machine to write such garbage. Maybe for her next book she can write how Skanderbeg was half Montenegrin.
pre 14 godina
If you watch most Holywood films about the World Wars you would think that the US won everything single handedly.
Rewriting a minor epic like this is a mere flea-bite in comparison to the normal stuff that flows out of the US.
pre 14 godina
What's with the reaction here?first whoever wrote this IT IS NOT ALBANIAN and so there's no need to call as thieves of history,I'm sure that if she was writing about Serbian glory you'll be praising her,what you have to do for Serbs?write and say whatever they want to hear in order to have you friends? it's like Serbia's request to ICJ opinion but you won't accept if that it's not in your favor.
We all know that with the arrival of slavic tribes in the balkan a large number of Albanians have been slavicized thru the centuries and so it's not a suprise if he was of Albanian blood,We Albanians too have fought the Turks and were left alone thanks to our neighbours.
pre 14 godina
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
(nemogudaverujem, 30 June 2009 21:03)
C'mon, there is a lot of controversy about US history and believe me, they in USA don't care less. Please no conspiration theories and no need to demonize. USA is so diverse, your stereotypes just won't fit.
Otherwise before more insanity about demonic America, Albanian Obilic, Shqip Lezgs and such comes from both sides:
1) Turkish word "kubila" means "MURDERER".
2) Family name "Kubilay" is pretty common in Turkey.
3) Compare it with "Kublai Khan" (Mongolian and Turkish are relative). Kublai is not "murderer" but the Great Khans were fancy to use some bombastic names. I am sure, it does not mean "good samaritan" in Mongolian. ;)
4) Remove that "k" from "Kubila", what does it mean in Russian? (OK, that is probably a coincidence)
According some theories (please DO NOT look up the English "Wiki"!) the name was given by Turks.
The original person is most likely the brother of the Queen Milica, Nikola Vratković. "Miloš" was his nickname and "Kubila" was added later by Turks.
According the Turkish historian İdris-i Bitlisî, (died 1520) Sultan Murad was killed by a person called "Nikola".
Worth to read the "Wiki" in German... ;)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos_Obilic
pre 14 godina
*facepalm*
I seriously wouldn't be surprised to hear breaking news "New discovery! Jesus Christ was Albanian!"
And I don't blame poor Albanian people themselves, cause they don't even KNOW whats happening around them...
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
I blame USA government for being what they always were since the day they exist - DISGUSTING, ARROGANT, CORRUPTED TYRANTS AND DECEIVERS!
pre 14 godina
I think its great that this book gets published and that Serbs read it in Serbia. Its time for the people of Serbia to realize that the west, amerikkka in particular have a very nasty agenda for Serbia.
pre 14 godina
Hello
maybe he was albanian. Maybe chinese. Maybe croatian macedonian bosnian. What ever. He is not alive. He was executed. But this woman do you to talk.
pre 14 godina
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor. (Eric (USA), 30 June 2009 19:29)
There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
pre 14 godina
Guys ! I just read that even Bozo the Clown is actualy albanian! http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=bozo%20the%20clown&sa=N&tab=wi&um=1
pre 14 godina
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
(raso, 30 June 2009 17:04)
Raso, it's 100% impossible for "Shqip" to have anything common with "Lezg" (Caucasus-Albanians) simply because the structure of "Lezg" language is close to Hungarian, the structure of "Shqip" language is fairly close to, say, Romanian or Serbian. These are like fire and water, very far away. With the same success you could say, Sioux Indians and Russians are the same.
But there is not much proof, "Shqip" langauge is Illyrian either. There is a very much accepted speculation about Thracian or Dacian roots. Being Illyrians directly is a myth and there was significant Celtic population, too. We can assume some Celtic / Illyrian / Thracian / Dacian mix, but probably never will know who and at what degree.
pre 14 godina
I am sure if you sit in on an Albanian history class you will find out that Jesus Christ was also Albanian.
When they can no longer steal physical things they steal history.
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor.
pre 14 godina
Gajo
If you want to be taken seriously, provide links to respectable sites. Geocities and serbnationalist.com will not do it my friend.
pre 14 godina
Ataman,
Herby I withdraw any of my previous critics about Daco-Roman legend.This storia albanese exceeds any boundaries of imagination.I am sitting and watching just like Rosy in the cinema.Another proof that there is no limit to stupidity.Such stories reflect a very serious inferiority complex.
pre 14 godina
even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links "
Raso, posting geocities.com or serbanationalist.com links will not do it. His mom was possibly a slavic woman (at least a slavic name) from today's Macedonia. Bulgarian, Serb, Vlach ...or who knows.
However you don't want to dig in who is what what, the lines are very blurry especially when it comes to Montenegro.
pre 14 godina
Thieving business or should i say, business as usual :) it's like with our serb land kosovo. We have something they dont, be it land, be it national heroes, they try to steal it. pinch lord nelson off brits, why don't you :)) I hear there's plenty of albanian mafia in london anyway. so albanians steal from them OR ask your western masters to also donate heroes when they donate money for your food, water, electricity. but don't try to steal from us, we're serbs, we're crazy, didn't you watch cnn :)))
Anyway seriously about the inane story. milos is a slavic name. I hate to point it out but Kopile means bastard in serbian. kopilic is a patronymic of bastard. -ic, ich patronymics are slavic things :) In english it would be bastardson or something:)) i aint never heard of a serb whose name translates to bastardson. heck i dont know about albanians. but i doubt it? anyway to cut it short. Whoever's writing this book is taking the micky or should i say milos :)) out of you albanians, and for a pretty lobbyist dollar no doubt. we serbs are very entertained. If we were gentler folks we'd feel sorry.
pre 14 godina
well i guess then that all those guys that show albanian "resistence" until today, the muslim albanian majority, are probably of serb origin ...
stupidity knows no borders, especially in fake states and the us ...
but history revisionism worked in the 90ies, nearly worked for the world war II (albanian jew-saviors in ss-uniforms as the narco-paid pseudo-science teaches us), why not try it with something older?
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect.
i couldn´t have said it better .... :-)))
pre 14 godina
Don't listen to this woman, please. Her real name is Anna Di Lellio, she is Italian, and a negationist of the Uçk crimes. Moreover, she depicts Thaçi, Haradinaj and Çeku like "fighters for freedom" and "guardians of democracy"! This just give you the idea of how reliable and "super-partes" the foolish opinions of this woman are.
pre 14 godina
Peter the Great was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
(szemi, 30 June 2009 16:32)
Absolutely. And the mythical Three Knights (Добрыня Никитыч, Алёша Попович, Илья Муромец), too.
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
pre 14 godina
even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html
http://serbiannationalist.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/skenderbeg-a-serb/
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2386
and now albanians think obilic is albanian lool this is funny, but we know its just a fiction book but i do hope Serbians go to the book release
pre 14 godina
'the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect. '
Are you sure this is Slavic? I didn't find the root kopil- in my Czech, Slovak or Russian dictionaries, but it is in the Albanian one: "kopil" - either "bastard" or "clever/sly person."
Calling him the "trickster" would actually make pretty good sense.
pre 14 godina
There are some recent Albanian discoveries about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and even Triệu Thị Trinh ethnic background.
pre 14 godina
Disgraceful!!!
Our state organs should take the publisher to the court immediately.
How much more grief we are gonna get from Albanians? And they speak of good neighbourly relations?! Utter rubbish!
pre 14 godina
this is just a fictional book that nobody will take seriously lol its like a joke we here in north America no the real history of the Balkans, not the false Albanian claims. even skanderbeg has Serbian blood from his mothers side we all know the history and we know this is just fiction and i hope the Serbian people go to the book release and laugh at this person for this fiction.
pre 14 godina
I don't know why one would srite a book. As for Milos /Millosh names have a way to be changed dependig on who says it like Gjon /John but his last name was Kopilic. Even Serbs used Kopilic until recently
pre 14 godina
This is what happens when you have no cultural identity of your own - you have to start stealing from those around you to try to create some legitimacy
pre 14 godina
I'm not sure this is obvious from the article, but the book discusses a medieval Albanian epic - it's not an historical study of the battle attempting to disprove "what every Serb knows."
Interesting where they obtained the manuscript - but at $50+ (at Amazon), I think I'll wait for the paperback to actually read it.
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
pre 14 godina
he should be sued for false information. i hope the serbs get angry for this insult and stage a protest in a big way
pre 14 godina
In fact every important person in history is of albanian origin.I have heard recently that even Peter the gret was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
pre 14 godina
wow, what an invention and falsification of history! What does that tell you about this so called author of this fictional book. This person should not be allowed to write again!
pre 14 godina
This is what happens when you have no cultural identity of your own - you have to start stealing from those around you to try to create some legitimacy
pre 14 godina
he should be sued for false information. i hope the serbs get angry for this insult and stage a protest in a big way
pre 14 godina
wow, what an invention and falsification of history! What does that tell you about this so called author of this fictional book. This person should not be allowed to write again!
pre 14 godina
Disgraceful!!!
Our state organs should take the publisher to the court immediately.
How much more grief we are gonna get from Albanians? And they speak of good neighbourly relations?! Utter rubbish!
pre 14 godina
well i guess then that all those guys that show albanian "resistence" until today, the muslim albanian majority, are probably of serb origin ...
stupidity knows no borders, especially in fake states and the us ...
but history revisionism worked in the 90ies, nearly worked for the world war II (albanian jew-saviors in ss-uniforms as the narco-paid pseudo-science teaches us), why not try it with something older?
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect.
i couldn´t have said it better .... :-)))
pre 14 godina
There are some recent Albanian discoveries about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and even Triệu Thị Trinh ethnic background.
pre 14 godina
Peter the Great was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
(szemi, 30 June 2009 16:32)
Absolutely. And the mythical Three Knights (Добрыня Никитыч, Алёша Попович, Илья Муромец), too.
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
pre 14 godina
In fact every important person in history is of albanian origin.I have heard recently that even Peter the gret was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
pre 14 godina
Don't listen to this woman, please. Her real name is Anna Di Lellio, she is Italian, and a negationist of the Uçk crimes. Moreover, she depicts Thaçi, Haradinaj and Çeku like "fighters for freedom" and "guardians of democracy"! This just give you the idea of how reliable and "super-partes" the foolish opinions of this woman are.
pre 14 godina
I am sure if you sit in on an Albanian history class you will find out that Jesus Christ was also Albanian.
When they can no longer steal physical things they steal history.
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor.
pre 14 godina
*facepalm*
I seriously wouldn't be surprised to hear breaking news "New discovery! Jesus Christ was Albanian!"
And I don't blame poor Albanian people themselves, cause they don't even KNOW whats happening around them...
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
I blame USA government for being what they always were since the day they exist - DISGUSTING, ARROGANT, CORRUPTED TYRANTS AND DECEIVERS!
pre 14 godina
Thieving business or should i say, business as usual :) it's like with our serb land kosovo. We have something they dont, be it land, be it national heroes, they try to steal it. pinch lord nelson off brits, why don't you :)) I hear there's plenty of albanian mafia in london anyway. so albanians steal from them OR ask your western masters to also donate heroes when they donate money for your food, water, electricity. but don't try to steal from us, we're serbs, we're crazy, didn't you watch cnn :)))
Anyway seriously about the inane story. milos is a slavic name. I hate to point it out but Kopile means bastard in serbian. kopilic is a patronymic of bastard. -ic, ich patronymics are slavic things :) In english it would be bastardson or something:)) i aint never heard of a serb whose name translates to bastardson. heck i dont know about albanians. but i doubt it? anyway to cut it short. Whoever's writing this book is taking the micky or should i say milos :)) out of you albanians, and for a pretty lobbyist dollar no doubt. we serbs are very entertained. If we were gentler folks we'd feel sorry.
pre 14 godina
even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html
http://serbiannationalist.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/skenderbeg-a-serb/
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2386
and now albanians think obilic is albanian lool this is funny, but we know its just a fiction book but i do hope Serbians go to the book release
pre 14 godina
this is just a fictional book that nobody will take seriously lol its like a joke we here in north America no the real history of the Balkans, not the false Albanian claims. even skanderbeg has Serbian blood from his mothers side we all know the history and we know this is just fiction and i hope the Serbian people go to the book release and laugh at this person for this fiction.
pre 14 godina
Guys ! I just read that even Bozo the Clown is actualy albanian! http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=bozo%20the%20clown&sa=N&tab=wi&um=1
pre 14 godina
Ataman,
Herby I withdraw any of my previous critics about Daco-Roman legend.This storia albanese exceeds any boundaries of imagination.I am sitting and watching just like Rosy in the cinema.Another proof that there is no limit to stupidity.Such stories reflect a very serious inferiority complex.
pre 14 godina
I think its great that this book gets published and that Serbs read it in Serbia. Its time for the people of Serbia to realize that the west, amerikkka in particular have a very nasty agenda for Serbia.
pre 14 godina
"According to the author’s biography, Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
Well that says it all. I guess she was paid a good amount by the Albanian propaganda machine to write such garbage. Maybe for her next book she can write how Skanderbeg was half Montenegrin.
pre 14 godina
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor. (Eric (USA), 30 June 2009 19:29)
There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
pre 14 godina
Obilic is from old historic France! Or Gaul, as the region was called at that time. Usually the name was written "Obelix" there...
God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)
pre 14 godina
I don't know why one would srite a book. As for Milos /Millosh names have a way to be changed dependig on who says it like Gjon /John but his last name was Kopilic. Even Serbs used Kopilic until recently
pre 14 godina
If you watch most Holywood films about the World Wars you would think that the US won everything single handedly.
Rewriting a minor epic like this is a mere flea-bite in comparison to the normal stuff that flows out of the US.
pre 14 godina
Did everyone know that Milosevic was actually Albanian too!?
pre 14 godina
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
(Ataman, 30 June 2009 17:18)
Ataman,
don´t do that to me, please ; )
pre 14 godina
Milos Obilic was also known as Milos KoBilic, not "KoPilic". Mid XV and early XVI century he was mentioned in some chronicles as Milos Kobilac and Milos Kobilovic.The origins of both Obilic and KoBilic have been explained in two legends. According to the one explaining the name KoBilic, Miloc was suckled by a mare till the age of seven, and thanks to the mare-milk, he gained and showed enormous strength from the earliest days of his life.Albanian KOPILIC, most likely came either as mispronunciation of KoBilic, or as mocking connection to the word "kopile" -bastard. The root of the word "kopile"? To the best of my knowledge (I might be wrong, though) in Vlachs Romanian living in Serbia it simply means kid, child. How the word got the meaning bastard don't ask me.
How he became an Albanian hero we all know.
pre 14 godina
'the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect. '
Are you sure this is Slavic? I didn't find the root kopil- in my Czech, Slovak or Russian dictionaries, but it is in the Albanian one: "kopil" - either "bastard" or "clever/sly person."
Calling him the "trickster" would actually make pretty good sense.
pre 14 godina
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
(raso, 30 June 2009 17:04)
Raso, it's 100% impossible for "Shqip" to have anything common with "Lezg" (Caucasus-Albanians) simply because the structure of "Lezg" language is close to Hungarian, the structure of "Shqip" language is fairly close to, say, Romanian or Serbian. These are like fire and water, very far away. With the same success you could say, Sioux Indians and Russians are the same.
But there is not much proof, "Shqip" langauge is Illyrian either. There is a very much accepted speculation about Thracian or Dacian roots. Being Illyrians directly is a myth and there was significant Celtic population, too. We can assume some Celtic / Illyrian / Thracian / Dacian mix, but probably never will know who and at what degree.
pre 14 godina
"Lellio is a guest professor"
Or maybe is schoolgirl?? ;)
pre 14 godina
I believe there is even a more deep rooted conspiracy here that nobody has picked up on yet.
The US government is just a false puppet state for Albanians who want to start a new world order of the Albanian race. "Greater Albania" is actually going to start with taking over the whole of Europe and then the entire world.
Kosovo and the present day blatant modification of historical facts is just the first step in claiming the planet Earth for the almighty Albanian race.
In 100 years time every single person in the world will be speaking Albanian and bowing down to the Supreme Emperor of the World Agim Ceku.
Every single person past and present will be known as being Albanian! Heed my words...
pre 14 godina
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
(nemogudaverujem, 30 June 2009 21:03)
C'mon, there is a lot of controversy about US history and believe me, they in USA don't care less. Please no conspiration theories and no need to demonize. USA is so diverse, your stereotypes just won't fit.
Otherwise before more insanity about demonic America, Albanian Obilic, Shqip Lezgs and such comes from both sides:
1) Turkish word "kubila" means "MURDERER".
2) Family name "Kubilay" is pretty common in Turkey.
3) Compare it with "Kublai Khan" (Mongolian and Turkish are relative). Kublai is not "murderer" but the Great Khans were fancy to use some bombastic names. I am sure, it does not mean "good samaritan" in Mongolian. ;)
4) Remove that "k" from "Kubila", what does it mean in Russian? (OK, that is probably a coincidence)
According some theories (please DO NOT look up the English "Wiki"!) the name was given by Turks.
The original person is most likely the brother of the Queen Milica, Nikola Vratković. "Miloš" was his nickname and "Kubila" was added later by Turks.
According the Turkish historian İdris-i Bitlisî, (died 1520) Sultan Murad was killed by a person called "Nikola".
Worth to read the "Wiki" in German... ;)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos_Obilic
pre 14 godina
Come on guys. I'm Albanian and i know he is your hero. We Albanians have nothing to do this book. Your heroes are your heroes, our heroes are our heroes. God bless.
pre 14 godina
Could be, Logic - but somehow here İdris-i Bitlisî does sound more realistic. "Кабыла" is indeed a "mare" in Russian, too - but if I wake up my Russian feet first, I can't imagine a warrior would be nicknamed "Кабылич" or "Кабылович". There is a saying "Кабыла не лошадь, баба не человек" ("a mare is not a horse... " oh, well, male sexism had no borders...)
On the other hand, "Miloš, the killer" from Turkish point of view is pretty plausible.
If indeed "Miloš" ( = "the liked one") was the nickname of Nikola Vratković, the brother of Queen Milica, than we probably have one mystery less.
To consider: both "Nikola" and "Mikola" versions were used frequently. Because of alliteration, a "Mikola" who is popular with ladies could easily become "Miloš".
pre 14 godina
My God, how many names out there can be distorted and made to sound like another nationality.
We have all borrowed something from each other over centuries. There are too many names which sound similar names from countries on another continent.
Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use. Even J.K. Rowling is more credible than this "author".
pre 14 godina
@ 85, SRBOSLAV
"I read on some Albanian website that they had polar bears in the "Albanian Alps" together with snowleopards and lamas"
True.They had also apes in Albanian Alps. All the animals lived in a perfect harmony - no atrocities of any kind, just endless love. The apes were sitting on enormously tall trees picking bananas and feeding them to the rest of animals who could not reach them. All these inhabitants became angels and flew all over the world to spread their good deeds.
But their good nature continues to live in the humans from that region.
We all know how the Albanians are incapable of committing any atrocity. And to honor the memory of those tall banana trees they declared their own, independent, Banana Republic...
pre 14 godina
Marinels - please tell me how many "Albanian knights" can lived in 14th century Kosovo, if in Turkish cadastral tax census from 1455 (Branković lands) we can read, that on this territory were:
13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
So - where is place for Albanian nobles (knights was part of noble class)???? If In 1455 here were only 46 Albanian dwellings (there were more Vlach dwelling than Albanian!!!!) - so how many K-Albanians can fought in Battle of Kosovo in 1389????
pre 14 godina
What's with the reaction here?first whoever wrote this IT IS NOT ALBANIAN and so there's no need to call as thieves of history,I'm sure that if she was writing about Serbian glory you'll be praising her,what you have to do for Serbs?write and say whatever they want to hear in order to have you friends? it's like Serbia's request to ICJ opinion but you won't accept if that it's not in your favor.
We all know that with the arrival of slavic tribes in the balkan a large number of Albanians have been slavicized thru the centuries and so it's not a suprise if he was of Albanian blood,We Albanians too have fought the Turks and were left alone thanks to our neighbours.
pre 14 godina
Gajo
If you want to be taken seriously, provide links to respectable sites. Geocities and serbnationalist.com will not do it my friend.
pre 14 godina
There is little info of the battle of Kosovo in 1389. But also, although it was in 14th century, it was heard of in the rest of Europe and written down. If you try to find these records, you will find that the Serbs stopped the Turks for a while at Kosovo (both had heavy losses, many consider it a stalemate, since the Turks returned some 40 years later. it was a loss in the long run for the Serbs), and praises of various rulers and characters who lived at the time.
Albanians have also most likely even been in league with the Turks, with their territorial pretensions to the northeast manifesting even then.
pre 14 godina
I thought the Pope was Albanian...but then again wasn't Elvis Presley, Joseph Stalin and JFK?
pre 14 godina
I can't wait for her next book titled....
Stongest Allies in History
Jews and Nazis
pre 14 godina
"God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)"
But, but, but, don't say its not true?!!? ;-) I read on some albanian website that they had polar bears in the "albanian alpes" toghether with snowleopards and Lamas, are you saying that its not true??????
It must be Milosevic propaganda to discourage tourism to the "albanian alpes" to look at these amazing animals there ;-)
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
(Rebel, 30 June 2009 16:55)
Well I know that we live in a world of devalued words(just think about the following ones:democracy,freedom)but mistaking courage with stupidity may be a bit too much.
pre 14 godina
I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.
I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so.
Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
pre 14 godina
Piotr,
I am not afraid of germans turning Zawisza Czarny into their hero.AS opposed to albanians they do not suffer of inferiority complex.However If albanians multiply at current rate in 100 years they will be knock,knock,knocking on Poland's door.Then they will try to turn Zawisza Czarny into their hero by all means.Of course first comes Vasil Levski since bulgaria is a bit closer geographicly .
pre 14 godina
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 16:40)
Podolski is 100% polish nationality - he have only german passport. Podolski and Klose before they started playing for Germany can play in both polish or german national team. They decided play for Germany only becouse Germany is better team, but Podolski still declare that he is polish.
About Milos Obilic - can Albanians explain how many Albanians have name "Milos"?? I don't know any Albanian with this name, but lot of Serbs.
pre 14 godina
BTW: just googling on "Nikola Vratkovic", it turns out that Albanians know about him and of course they already have a 100% proof, Nikola Vratkovic (and thus Queen Milica) was... guess, who? You guessed correctly, Sioux - but not Illyrians ;)
Hence my earlier statement about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and Triệu Thị Trinh does not needs to be corrected.
@Szemi - a famous Hungarian joke, you maybe know...
Q: "what is the most famous sentence in Madách' most famous work?"
A: "Enver küzdj és bízva bízzál!"
(an other version can be found here, huge collection of old political jokes:
http://mek.niif.hu/00100/00137/html/02.htm )
pre 14 godina
ahahaahahha!!!!!!
pre 14 godina
"In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola.Is he maybe Serb?"
(adrianlehman, 1 July 2009 22:18)
Adrian - Do You know family history of this albanian poet?? He was ALBANIZED SERB. When he was young, he learn in SERB ORTHODOX SCHOOL in Skadar. On this territory still live Serbian minority.
So - any other evidence of use name of Miloš by REAL ALBANIAN?? ;)
pre 14 godina
MILAN
I have heard this story before, of Mieszko I being German. It amuses me more than it offends, shows how desperately frustrated those German nationalists are ;)
szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Marinels
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
pre 14 godina
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA there is not a single alban named Milos. That is so hilarious.
pre 14 godina
They even started saying that Maria Teresa was albanian.
This entire propaganda has been started only a few years ago. If there were any debatable parts of history between the Serbs (who have actually survived for 500 years under Turks thanks to their songs which praise the heroes of the Battle), why come up now? :)
And when a Croat writes an introductory to this book, like one did, you can see what it is, without any "links" and "sources" at all.
pre 14 godina
Marinels
"Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it."
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/emmert.htm
I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.
Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?
And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek.
"You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so."
Can you give an example of what you are saying, because I don't agree with this.
"You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was."
I never said that the Slavs were the only contributors against the Turks, when did I ever say that anywhere?
The biggest victory carried out against the Turks was at Vienna, which was made up of Slavic (Polish and Ukrainian), Germanic (Austrian and German) and Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) soldiers, they all contributed to victory.
You assume far too much.
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This is really unnerving to say the least. I am a history major about wrap up my master's and this is just flat out disappointing. It is common knowledge Obilic is Serbian. I have NEVER heard anything to counter this. I never heard of this professor or read her book. Maybe she has evidence? I doubt it.
If her claim is as false as it sounds then the historical community will bash her into submission.
I am just disturbed because Palgrave Macmillan is a respected publisher of history books. I am just sad they would print something that seems so terribly false.
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INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
(Kosovar, 3 July 2009 10:42)
Her work will be a huge success alright when she rakes in a fortune from deluded Albanians. That gives me an idea.
I know what i'm going to do. I'm going to write a book and say that Elvis was Albanian and watch the moolah flow in.
So you say that Serbia's claim to Kosmet is bogus, well I have a question here Einstein. Who built the churches and monasteries?
...the lizard people.
Are you David Icke himself?
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equally to say, the only Serb ever existed was aleksandar obrenovic. Except for his two twin grandsons, naser oric and stipe mesic.
any living citizen of Serbia has in his genes a trace of albanian tribal clans, delije, and grobari (or, originally, delijqe and grobarxi).
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
so much left to become known in this world.
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There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
(adrianlehman, 30 June 2009 20:49)
Actually, only you, albanians, speak about thath so-called proofs while entire world still cant find any proof of what you say. Albanian and ellyrian languages belong to two different groups (SATEM and CENTUM) so albanian language tells us that Albanians are not desendents of ellyrians.
As for Milos being Serb, there are turkish and other sources telling us so.
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Albanians are not the only ancesstors of Illyians. Illyrians used to live on territory which spreaded to the borders between Slovenia and Croatia. There are much more ancestors of Illyrians in Bosnia then in Albania let alone in Kosovo.
Ilyrians were not a people. They were bunch of tribes.
Albanian homeland is Dagestan.
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even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links "
Raso, posting geocities.com or serbanationalist.com links will not do it. His mom was possibly a slavic woman (at least a slavic name) from today's Macedonia. Bulgarian, Serb, Vlach ...or who knows.
However you don't want to dig in who is what what, the lines are very blurry especially when it comes to Montenegro.
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Ataman,
Thank you for the link.Good old memories .Many jokes I have not
heard for more than 2 decades.I laughed off my head reading them but at one moment something crossed my mind and I had to stop laughing.I realized that after all albanians may be right.It is very possible that Obi-Lic was a member of the famous albanian Obi klan.
The most famous member of this klan was Obi-Wan Kenobi . In certain paintings about Obi-Lic it looks as if he had a lightsaber which can be a proof that he might be related to this KLan.
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who cares, no one will buy the book anyway.
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There's one thing that's sure about Miloš Obilić's ethnic identity: Being a knight he would have been offended to be told that he had ANYTHING in common with Serbian or Albanian peasants.
He probably would have challenged any noble who said such a thing to a duel; while a peasant who made such a suggestion would have been lucky to survive the day.
He would have looked down on most of the participants in this forum (including myself), because I'm afraid none of us would have met his social and ethical standards.
Whether he was Serbian (I suppose he was) or Albanian (why not?) he was a Christian, and a noble. He would not have cared much about ethnicity - he surely associated with other noble Christians, regardless of that.
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It's really sad!
I hope Serbian governement will react about this history fabrication by kosovo Albanians. They should sue the the publisher and the author of the this so called history book.
If we don't react they could try again with some other part of Serbian history. We have already witnessed naming Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries as "Albanian"!
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I'm not sure this is obvious from the article, but the book discusses a medieval Albanian epic - it's not an historical study of the battle attempting to disprove "what every Serb knows."
Interesting where they obtained the manuscript - but at $50+ (at Amazon), I think I'll wait for the paperback to actually read it.
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The world has gone mad! They now claim this church too. It is an old albanian church according to them!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31hbmMtS8E
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"Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
No ties to Kosovo, eh? Smells like more of the same old propaganda to me. It is quite amusing though considering no one but Albanians in the US or English speaking world will buy this. Heck, it is hard to get anyone to read any book these days...
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Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 08:50)
According to some german books, creator of polish state - Mješko I - was germanic nationality (with name "Dagome") ;)
So - some "pseudohistorians" need to support nationalistic claims to any territory with revoke history. If Miloš Obilić was Albanian and in battle of Kosovo fought "albanian knights" - than Kosovo land must be albanian, If Mješko I was germanic - than territory of Poland must back to Germany etc.
But I believe that these pseudohistorians are very small minority.
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Everybody please calm down. Old folk songs depicting Milos Obilic are not history, they are old folk songs. This is a translation of an Albanian epic song. Not a history. Similar Albanian (and Bulgarian, and Croatian) epic songs have been known and noticed by outstanding Serbian historians for a very long time. One of the best, Rade Mihaljcic, mentions them in his wonderful book, The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition. Translations of these folk songs should be welcome by Serbs because they show how influential Serbian history and tradition were. This should be a point of pride - and Milos Obilic remains a Serbian hero. He's great enough to become an Albanian one too
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Well, according to the article this house publishes books mainly in the field of social sciences.
Looks to me they are merely expanding into fiction as well. That's alright, I guess.
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That's just funny. I'll tell you just this. If Milos Obilic was albanian knight,how is it possible that you can't find even one albanian with that name?! Milos is serbian name. You can find thousands of serbs with that name.
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szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Well I think we have learned a lot on this forum about their mentality.They know no jokes and take everything seriously.Again IMO a very deep inferiority complex is in the background.Is it possible that between Gdansk and Athens they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
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Marinels, too bad that you haven't mentioned Fascist Albania during ww2, genocide on 10000 Serbs in Kosovo&Metohija, expulsion of 100000. There was albanian partizans during ww2 like there was italian partzans, but both countries were primarily fascist states in ww2. In other hand comparing to 29000 albanian (at the end of the war) partizans there was whole Serbian nation that fought and suffered under occupators. I will mention thath Albanians in northern Greece massacred Jews. Have you heard that story?
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Marinels:
"Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!!"
Vojvodina peoples are mostly SERBS. Hungarians are MINORITY.
"I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here."
Klose is not German - his mother was Polish and father described themselves as Silesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Klose)
Podolski is 100% Polish - hie father and mother was polish and his name "Podolski" is typical polish. He said in 2008 that he has Polish blood in him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Podolski).
Both - Klose and Podolski speak polish in home and both have polish wives.
Sorry man - but it's false example.
"The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks."
???? Do You know how many peoples died fron hands of fascists on whole Yugoslavia?? How many peoples died from hands od fascist 21 SS Division "Skanderberd"??
Much more than 28000 Albanian fascist "heroes"
"Die SS-Division Skanderbeg sollte zur Partisanenbekämpfung in Jugoslawien eingesetzt werden. Während des Sommers operierte sie im Kosovo und im Norden Mazedoniens weniger als militärischer Verband, denn als Terrororganisation gegen die Zivilbevölkerung. Eine unbekannte, aber zweifellos große Zahl von Serben wurde innerhalb weniger Wochen ermordet bzw. aus dem Kosovo vertrieben. Schmidhuber meldete schon im April 1944, dass 40.000 Serben aus dem Kosovo vertrieben worden waren. Der SS-Führer ging davon aus, dass noch mehr als 100.000 Serben vertrieben werden sollen."
"Am 28. Juli 1944 ermordeten Angehörige der Division im Dorf Veliko 380 Einwohner, darunter 120 Kinder, und setzten 300 Häuser in Brand. Die Juden im Kosovo wurden, soweit sie nicht hatten fliehen können, gefangen genommen und ins KZ Bergen-Belsen deportiert. In Skopje unterstand der Einheit ein Lager, in das die mazedonischen Juden verbracht wurden, bevor man sie in deutsche KZs abtransportierte. Die Gewalt der SS-Einheit richtete sich auch gegen die Volksgruppe der Roma."
Translate please and don't speak more about "Albanian heroes" ;)
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what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
(arion, 1 July 2009 08:38)
But Sultan was killed somehow. They do not like to mention much about it. According them, "Nikola, the killer" did allegedly do it. Him being Albanian is mildly speaking a phantasy.
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Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
(Logic, 1 July 2009 23:28)
True. Just look at Mr. Hashish.
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"Worth to read the "Wiki" in German"
(Ataman, 30 June 2009; 21:56)
Indeed.
So, he (Milos) was born in Dvoriste, Pocerina, but then in both Kobilje near POzarevac and Dvoriste near Golubac and Pozarevac is not in Pocerina... Golubac even farther from...
Milos -der Liebliche was Nikola - Car Lazar's wife Milica's brother who was engaged or married to Mara, his own sister's daughter...
Where is the proverbial german precision,to separate clearly the legend, speculations, historical facts?
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“I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.”
Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it.
“I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so”
You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so.
“Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.”
You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was.
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The name doesn´t mean a thing in History. There are many Albanians of orthodox faith in Albania named Milos, In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola. Is he maybe Serb? The battle of Kosovo was not fought by only Serbs, But Milos Obilic was certainly a Serb and this book it simply tacles a topic in an unresearched way, by an amateur writer.
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@ poster No. 68
As per prof. Banac, the book represents "a labour of love"
Once upon a time "Zmajs" used to visit the beautiful women by night in their chambers. And the lucky women would give a birth to supernatural heroes.
It appears that over the time "Zmajs" became less picky in regard to beauty and sex, thus the labours are producing kitschy books with even kitschier introductions.
Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
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Guys, please calm down! All this has been written about by Serbs - and with no sense of outrage until now. Before you get too angry, please read these authors:
Rade Mihaljčić writes of Albanian myth in his The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition, tr. M. Hrgović et al., (Belgrade, 1989), in particular on pp. 93-5.
On p. 93 Mihaljčić mentions the romantic and unsupported theory, propagated by Dragutin Kostić, that Miloš Obilić "seems to have come from a region where there has been a distinctive fusion of Serbian and Albanian populations".
More interesting, and seemingly more objective, is another work mentioned by M.:
В. Ћајкановић, Мотиви прве арнаутске песме о боју на Косово, Архив, vol. 1, no. 1-2 (1923), pp. 68-77. -
Čajković says of the Albanian myth: "It is an older and more primitive version of Serbian legend, in general, in its specific local, Kosovo form."... and "When I was in Elbassan with my squadron during the Albanian operations of 1912, I heard about some Albanians who were said to be descendents of Miloš Obilić. In Ohrid, I had the opportunity of seeing a sword (a very ordinary one which was certainly younger than the eighteenth century) which was supposed to have belonged to Miloš. All this goes to show that Miloš was a hero with a cult and a traditions all of his own among both Albanians and Serbs. Thus he is not only a Serbian but an Albanian hero, too."
Also - something not by a Serb:
A. Шмаус, Косово традицији код Арнаута, ППНП vol. 3, no. 1 (1936)
So, Serbian - and other - historians have known of these old, popular Albanian myths/epics for a very long time and have found them interesting and worth noting in their own work.
Translating this Albanian epic into English is a great service, and does not denigrate Serbs in any way.
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I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority (Marinels, 2 July 2009 13:48)
Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons.Attaman happens to be half russian half hungarian while I am half polish half hungarian.We have been brought up in circumstances when a good sense of humour helps to survive.We simply like lo laugh and joke about some things and you albanians with your childish comments provide a good ground for it.You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.) You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories.
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INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
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Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
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To Marinels
“Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.”
As I can see from plethora of comments above, nobody is going to dispute this line – it seems everybody’s eagerly awaiting it to happen.
And please don’t concentrate on Balkans only – there is a whole wide world out there, so many misteries are waiting to be solved! And who better to solve them, then known champions of arts, literature and science, renowned worldwide for their contributions to progress of humanity?
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Hi everybody,
It is really amaizing to go through these comments... I had a feeling that everyone of you has lived on 1389, this is ridicoulus... One thing is sure that none of balcan countries has teached to their children the real history, the history has been manipulated in order to rise nationalism that in fact was and still is a "bum-a-rang" for balcan countries. Nor serbs nor albanians can prove exactly who the man was that killed the Sulltan. If serbs say so, where is his land? his remainings of house? where is his tombe? where are facts? probably he was just an invention after Sulltans death! who knows... in the end does not change anything whomever he was. One thing is true that the batle of Kosovo was a batle of balcan people against turks, so there were bullgarians, hungarians, serbs, albanians and for this there facts that have remained in the archives of turkish museums. Also what is fact that the batle of Kosovo was a lost batle for balcan countries, after the turks won the batle of Kosovo they occupied all the region.
So my dear ballkanians do not get angry for these things, lets do more research, find facts and lets accept the history as is and not a fabricated history.
Bottom line: there is an investigation going on about europian identity, in a laborator through ADN material, up to now the results are showing that: italians make 8.5%, albaninas 7.4% and the greeks 6.9%. these are facts what genetics are showing.
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The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=10&status=jedna&vest=149807&title_add=Iznosim%20albansku%20pri%C4%8Du&kword_add=Kosovski%20boj%2C%20ana%20di%20lelio
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This is all excellent fun. Already there are 100+ posts. But this number is surely more than the number of Dollars this book will earn - who will *really* buy it at $50 a pop? Sure, it will find its way into a few 'learned' libraries, but those copies will be bought by some NATO/EU stooge. I suppose one or two local entrepreneurs (i.e. drug barons / traffickers) with a taste for the kitsch might buy a copy to grace some tastefully decorated villa. But what *real* person is going to stump up $50 for a politically expedient re-imagining of a historical event just because it was written by a cheerleader for the recently 'independent' Kososo. Oh, and it might (we hope) really annoy a few Serbs also. Actually, said Serbs are already rolling on the floor helpless with laughter over this load of twoddle.
If anyone does actually buy the scribblings of this "useful idiot", please post a review. I'll read it once I dry my eyes...
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Just for the sake of an argument, what if really he was what the book said. What would be wrong in it. At that time people were not devided like today in nationalities, but rather on faith. So it would not have been impossible for him to be an Albanian, or a Romanian, or Another ethnic background. Here one can clearly see that wjho is really an emancipated and accepting person, and not negatively oriented for anything it is Albanian.
I have a solution, if I may, do you know his grave? Do you know the descendents of it's familly (He must'ov had a familly? right?), and do a genetic comparison. We all might be suprised what it would come out.
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Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
(Russian, 1 July 2009 00:12)
Jesus, you are RIGHT! Shame, shame... :(
Me old idiot, I should not write at 2 AM.
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Szemi, you wrote:
"In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals."
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians. Relations between Hungarians and Serbs have been "less than perfect" for about four centuries now. Shall I remind you of what happened to some Hungarian villages in the early 1990s in Slavonia? Hungarians remember, even if you forget. But then we could talk about Partisan atrocities against Hungarians after WWII, and then we should also mention massive Hungarian atrocities against Serbs during the war; and the same for WWI; and 1848-49; and you can go right back to the 17th century.
All along the way Hungarians and Serbs mutual "love and understanding" is evident.
Leave Albanians out of it, Szemi. They are one European people with whom Hungarians have never had a single fight in all of history.
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what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
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In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid.
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'Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use.'
Today, sure, but in the oldest church records of births in Kosovo, Albanian names alternat with Slavic names in the same family - an "Albanian" father might have a "Serbian" son who then has an "Albanian" son himself.
In a book on the Ottoman Empire I read a long time ago, a man living in Thessalonika described his family: one brother lived in Durres and was an Albanian, another lived in Istanbul and was Turkish, and he himself was Greek. So what did nationality mean then? About as much as being from a U.S. state means today, it seems: it's where you live, pay your taxes, and eventually pick up the local dialect.
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Milan,
Exactly as you wrote.Both Podolski and Klose speak fluent polish and declared themselves Poles several times on polish TV.Now that we have Wimbledon I think they both can be compared to Nestor who is originaly Nestorovic and needless to say none of his parents was canadian.I wonder if albanians will ever try to convert Djokovic into Djokoviq just because in his childhood he started playing tennis near Kosovo.
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One more thing, Do you know something about Serbs during Stefan Nemanja? I mean, where it was first located, what was the name? If u would know that, you would know who build churches. Just don't tell me that Stefan Nemanja was born in Albania, and his name was bla bla bla
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That there are no Americans to write history, this world would be a much nicer place..
how many Americans accepted the Nazis in the 2nd World War..
not even a strange kind of their policy and attitude.. America needs war..
so it will soon start a war but to prevent it..
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Hello
maybe he was albanian. Maybe chinese. Maybe croatian macedonian bosnian. What ever. He is not alive. He was executed. But this woman do you to talk.
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To All
Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian.
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As it seems this topic has become one of the most discussed in the last days. At the beginning some of the pro Serbian camp took this topic only as a joke or at least they tried to present it in that way. The fact of being so hot topic seems to be not so irrelevant based on the ridiculous responses of the most of harsh nationalists who want in all ways to consider as discard the facts that they don’t event now (since the book is not yet on the hand). This kind of nationalist vary from the outsiders very far from Serbia to the desperate members of minorities within Serbia who have hard to accept that fact that they are and still will be for very long time citizen of “beloved” Serbia but nationals of other nation while Albanians are free to decide for their future. Anyway let me express my opinion as following:
The topic seems to be complex with all meanings of this word. The Serbs at this moment are interested to keep the Milos Kopiliq as the Serbian hero (who killed the sultan) but indeed they are more interested to defend him as being Serb more than Serb for the very simple reason. If he assumedly would be Albanian then all the propaganda a would have been nothing than bubbles. It means that firstly the Serbs were not the only ones fighting against Turks in BoK where the participation of Albanians until now was excluded and secondly the origin of Milos would indicate that at that time Kosovo was inhabited by Albanians as well. The Serbs could be terribly scared from these conclusions since they should review their long time propaganda and myth created not for the sake of the history but for the deformation of history in their favor. The arguments of Serbian side in many issues seem to be not much valid anymore. Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.
I have often read from the harsh nationalist Szemi and the “philosopher” Ataman many comments about jokes or inferiority & superiority among Albanians and other nations let alone many offences toward Albanians. Concerning the last new positions of you and Albanians ( I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority ) it is worthy to mention that you can feel very well over there and joke all the day about sudxhuks or whatever but you know that what can be joke for you is not for the others and vice versa.
Albanian struggle lasted about 87 years and it was in 1999 finalized with the victory and freedom yet with very high price. Therefore you are free to develop any strategy in order to feel superiors as Albanians are, and not begging to the Serbs every month for so called statute. That is enough to understand who is now superior and inferior. Don’t forget something last. Albanians have won everything thorough sacrifices and nobody has given our freedom as gift until now.
For the one who pretend the origin of Albanians from Dagestan or whatever feel free to visit this link:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/42643/The-Byzantine-Empire#ref=ref476167
Thank you all and have a nice day.
pre 14 godina
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
(radio303, 30 June 2009 22:48)
Not sure, she is the best looking (?!!??!!!) - but her "ARGUMENTS" are quite overwhelming... to say the least. :(
Nooo.... When it comes to more important part of the life than politics - than Vlora Citaku for president!!! At least in that case no one does dispute the ethnic background and V.C. wins hands down and miles ahead.
pre 14 godina
they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
(szemi, 1 July 2009 17:11)
Maybe, but I did see some good exemptions once in a while. The best to watch are debates between Greeks and Albanians about fustanella on Youtube. I don't know, but they should rater ask their boss (wife/gf). She may suggest, it's more important what is under it, than who invented it.
pre 14 godina
Marinels wrote: After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???
Well indeed I used Vojvodina(vajdaság)mainly for crosing on my way to Bg and Kosovo.So it seems that albanian lack the sense of topology as well.Actually I co-worked in Kosovo with polish and hungarian military personal as well as former UMNIK spoksmen hungarian Kakukk György.So I happen to be not such an outsider anyway.
Knowing your one side mentality I fully understand that those who do not sing albanian song are a bit inconvinient to you on this forum .I would however warn you that this forum is run by a serbian media organ so do not try to steal it and dictate rules.You can allow this kind of arrogance as long as you are under Nato mama's skirt.As to hungarians from Vojvodina I know and hosted a lot of them at my home and well their attitude towards albanians is rather mixed.In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals involved mainly in narco business(together with gypsies fully control this branch).UDI has some support mainly among members of far right,commies and extreme liberals otherwise the majority of society is unintersted.
Marinals wrote We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists
As to bunch of communist I would rather keep silent because the UDI in central and eastern european countries was mainly supported and forced by those "democrats" who were the most eager commies of the region not so long ago simply now they lick the boots of some brusselits and guys in Washington.Had it not been for Comrade TIto you would have been kick out of Kosovo finaly the same way Germans were kicked out of Poland after forced colonizatin lasting several centuries.
pre 14 godina
if he was born in Albania or no, that I don't know, but you can be born in south America, and still be a Serb. + that region was a part of Serbia. We have songs about Milos Obilic, and battle on Kosovo, much, much, older than your country is...
Do you even know how u got your country?
pre 14 godina
Why all this heat? Leave the question of Milos's origin to the historians. The poor lady only studied Albanian epic songs dealing with the Battle of Kosovo! Or, maybe the Albanians should not have been allowed to sing their songs (because due to the objection of commentators above).
pre 14 godina
Before the slavs came in the Ballkans there where Ilyrians which everyone knows they'r albanian decent.
pre 14 godina
“Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons”
After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???? We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists telling us stories about suxhuks and Russian kitchen. You said you don’t want Vojvodina back but you are begging to the Serbs almost every day about the statue. Even today you have an article about it. Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!! No at all since we have seen quite different view from the most of Hungarian minority here in the course of time. I don’t think any reason as an Albanian to bias any issue between Polish and German people for example. For the second time please, what the hell are you doing here???
“You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.)”
My statements are based on the information accessible to everyone. Here you have some extract from his background:
“Klose's father is from an ethnic German family and thus they were permitted to settle as Aussiedler in West Germany.”
I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Miroslav_Klose
The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks. The most valuable consideration comes from the victims of the WWII the Jews who fully respect us that not a single Jew was killed in Albanian hand during the war. Their support for Kosovo just confirms the facts.
“You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories”
During the communists era the isolation of the country didn’t give the talents any opportunity to participate in international games. In order to see Albanian names on the doors of departments or websites of Nobel prizes (two of them) actors of Hollywood or scientists you better visit the west oriented source of information and not propagandistic and old era archives. Even one of the best ex Yugo actor namely Bekim Fehmiu was of Albanian origin.
pre 14 godina
You can talk all you want.
'Anna Di Lellio has afforded us a rare insight into an alternative - Albanian - tradition of the Battle of Kosovo. This valuable collection, meticulously translated, edited and commented, represents a labor of love that is simultaneously of great importance for all students of the Balkan past.' - Ivo Banac, Bradford Durfee Professor of History, Yale University
I am getting my hands on one.
pre 14 godina
The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
[link]
(Webber, 2 July 2009 17:20)
Bwaaahaaahaaahaaa :D So - only Albanians described Miloš Obilić as "Albanian knight" ;)
pre 14 godina
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there.
@ Milan,
I think you misunderstood Marinels. He did not mean 28 000 deaths of the Scanderbeg SS division. He was refering to the 28 000 Albanian partizans killed by Nazis and their collaborators.
When he mentioned Scanderbeg, he was refering to the Albanian hero who fought against the Turks in the 15th century.
pre 14 godina
Next thing you know Michael Jackson was albanian. Come on folks people write books about everything distorting to truth changing history etc. Focus on the things we can change not some folkore book someone is writing just to write.
pre 14 godina
“I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.”
The object of discussion was the book about the origin of Milos Kopiliq. I didn’t say surely that he is Albanian but I asked you to provide reliable sources that he was truly of Serbian origin (not collection of disputed Serbian sources). Therefore I don’t have to provide sources of being Albanian but everybody has a right to discuss the new facts and arguments which come up. You reaction with words such as satirical humor or stupid was childish which makes me to believe that you rate very high the Serbian sources/fairytales and dispute very easily the other (the author is not Albanian at all). In such case I personally wouldn’t react without knowing the content and the arguments since you pretend to be unbiased. If u were a Serb of course I would expect you to dispute the book in the first moment for the reasons everybody knows.
“Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?”
Please refer to the content below:
In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid
“And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek”.
I would never call anybody stupid when she/he says that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek or whatever. Instead I would kindly ask for the facts and arguments (not from Albanian sources) in order to justify the claim and counter facts from our (Albanian) side. You are welcome anytime
pre 14 godina
What is scary it looks as Serbs looking for Excuse to bash on Albanians. and then expect them to be in one country. Milos obilic/Kopilic is Serbian Hero. this lady is not Albanian and even if she was is one person representing the nation.
Please stop thinking in the past this is the reason we have so many issues, Who cares what happend in 1300 hundred. Look forward only solution is North Mitrovica to Serbia Bujanovc to Kosovo.
We are not evolved enouh to live together maybe in 200 years and that if we dont look the past
pre 14 godina
"Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian."
No, obviously he was Belarusian - what else could "кабыла" be?
pre 14 godina
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.(Webber)
Definitely but most of these are also of albanian origin from Serbia. For years they were reported as Yugoslavs then serbs finally media and programs dealing with crimes became more straight and reported them as albanians from serbia or kosovo albanians.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians.(WEbber)
Despite the not too perfect serb-hungarian relations(and belive me I Could constract a much longer list of atrocities committed by both)except some Gárda and Jobbik members this is not the case.Hungarian political elite have always been "good" at choosing allies and we know the consequences.Sad to say hungarians have always been good servents of german intersts even against their own in the region.Unfortunately the bootlicking(szarosnyelvû) mentality besides albanians is very characteristic to hungarians.Anyway have you ever read a book of some known hungarain expert of middle ages like Mályusz Elemér for example.There you could learn about 'friendly'albanian merceneries who killed off a significant part of hungarian population under the turkish wings.
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there. (Geni,)
That is perhaps because you do not understand any hungarian word while I happen to know at least the form of albanian names.And simply I have never heard of any significant albanian achievement in the field of mathematics.
pre 14 godina
I don't understand why so many people are expressing high emotional feelings towards Albanians for this book. At the end the author is not Albanian, and not every book written about history is true.
But what I know, is also that not every history myth is true either. There is no country or nation on earth that doesn't have national historical figures they look upon who are not filled with myth, I truly believe that Serbs and Albanians make no exception.
In the end reading it doesn't hurt anyone, you don't have to believe what you read and to believe that you can stop books for being published or information to go through is an idea which finds no ground in our globalized world.
pre 14 godina
in the very first day this article appeared here I wrote a short comment.
actually what was the reason to censor or to be precise, to withhold my comment about this book?
was it the mentioning of the term "inferiority complex"?
or that I find it amusing how some businessmen are writing "books on demand" ...which will be sold only among albanian nationalists?
whatever it is, B92 once has once more shown their unpfrofessional face.
pre 14 godina
(szemi, 2 July 2009 15:24)
On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.
pre 14 godina
We have already seen that movie! In Macedonia Greek heros from the antiquity and Bulgarian once from the Middle Ages and the Revival are regularly presented as 'Macedonian".
pre 14 godina
'On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.'
The Hungarian influence here is apparently stronger than I realized.
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
pre 14 godina
I don't know why one would srite a book. As for Milos /Millosh names have a way to be changed dependig on who says it like Gjon /John but his last name was Kopilic. Even Serbs used Kopilic until recently
pre 14 godina
This is what happens when you have no cultural identity of your own - you have to start stealing from those around you to try to create some legitimacy
pre 14 godina
he should be sued for false information. i hope the serbs get angry for this insult and stage a protest in a big way
pre 14 godina
even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links "
Raso, posting geocities.com or serbanationalist.com links will not do it. His mom was possibly a slavic woman (at least a slavic name) from today's Macedonia. Bulgarian, Serb, Vlach ...or who knows.
However you don't want to dig in who is what what, the lines are very blurry especially when it comes to Montenegro.
pre 14 godina
In fact every important person in history is of albanian origin.I have heard recently that even Peter the gret was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
pre 14 godina
Gajo
If you want to be taken seriously, provide links to respectable sites. Geocities and serbnationalist.com will not do it my friend.
pre 14 godina
wow, what an invention and falsification of history! What does that tell you about this so called author of this fictional book. This person should not be allowed to write again!
pre 14 godina
Disgraceful!!!
Our state organs should take the publisher to the court immediately.
How much more grief we are gonna get from Albanians? And they speak of good neighbourly relations?! Utter rubbish!
pre 14 godina
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor. (Eric (USA), 30 June 2009 19:29)
There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
pre 14 godina
well i guess then that all those guys that show albanian "resistence" until today, the muslim albanian majority, are probably of serb origin ...
stupidity knows no borders, especially in fake states and the us ...
but history revisionism worked in the 90ies, nearly worked for the world war II (albanian jew-saviors in ss-uniforms as the narco-paid pseudo-science teaches us), why not try it with something older?
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect.
i couldn´t have said it better .... :-)))
pre 14 godina
There are some recent Albanian discoveries about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and even Triệu Thị Trinh ethnic background.
pre 14 godina
What's with the reaction here?first whoever wrote this IT IS NOT ALBANIAN and so there's no need to call as thieves of history,I'm sure that if she was writing about Serbian glory you'll be praising her,what you have to do for Serbs?write and say whatever they want to hear in order to have you friends? it's like Serbia's request to ICJ opinion but you won't accept if that it's not in your favor.
We all know that with the arrival of slavic tribes in the balkan a large number of Albanians have been slavicized thru the centuries and so it's not a suprise if he was of Albanian blood,We Albanians too have fought the Turks and were left alone thanks to our neighbours.
pre 14 godina
this is just a fictional book that nobody will take seriously lol its like a joke we here in north America no the real history of the Balkans, not the false Albanian claims. even skanderbeg has Serbian blood from his mothers side we all know the history and we know this is just fiction and i hope the Serbian people go to the book release and laugh at this person for this fiction.
pre 14 godina
'the funny thing about it: she describes the albanians or their problem with history/their roots in general with the (also) slavic term "kopilic" very, very perfect. '
Are you sure this is Slavic? I didn't find the root kopil- in my Czech, Slovak or Russian dictionaries, but it is in the Albanian one: "kopil" - either "bastard" or "clever/sly person."
Calling him the "trickster" would actually make pretty good sense.
pre 14 godina
Peter the Great was born in Durrës.In his childhood he spent hours watching ships that is where his passion for ships and navy came from.
(szemi, 30 June 2009 16:32)
Absolutely. And the mythical Three Knights (Добрыня Никитыч, Алёша Попович, Илья Муромец), too.
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
pre 14 godina
even Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was part Serbian here are the links
http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html
http://serbiannationalist.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/skenderbeg-a-serb/
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/news/news_body.cfm?newsid=2386
and now albanians think obilic is albanian lool this is funny, but we know its just a fiction book but i do hope Serbians go to the book release
pre 14 godina
I'm not sure this is obvious from the article, but the book discusses a medieval Albanian epic - it's not an historical study of the battle attempting to disprove "what every Serb knows."
Interesting where they obtained the manuscript - but at $50+ (at Amazon), I think I'll wait for the paperback to actually read it.
pre 14 godina
I am sure if you sit in on an Albanian history class you will find out that Jesus Christ was also Albanian.
When they can no longer steal physical things they steal history.
These are the same people who honestly believe they are the decedents of a race of people who died out several hundred years before they came to the Balkans from East of Asia Minor.
pre 14 godina
Hello
maybe he was albanian. Maybe chinese. Maybe croatian macedonian bosnian. What ever. He is not alive. He was executed. But this woman do you to talk.
pre 14 godina
To All
Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian.
pre 14 godina
Just for the sake of an argument, what if really he was what the book said. What would be wrong in it. At that time people were not devided like today in nationalities, but rather on faith. So it would not have been impossible for him to be an Albanian, or a Romanian, or Another ethnic background. Here one can clearly see that wjho is really an emancipated and accepting person, and not negatively oriented for anything it is Albanian.
I have a solution, if I may, do you know his grave? Do you know the descendents of it's familly (He must'ov had a familly? right?), and do a genetic comparison. We all might be suprised what it would come out.
pre 14 godina
what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
pre 14 godina
As it seems this topic has become one of the most discussed in the last days. At the beginning some of the pro Serbian camp took this topic only as a joke or at least they tried to present it in that way. The fact of being so hot topic seems to be not so irrelevant based on the ridiculous responses of the most of harsh nationalists who want in all ways to consider as discard the facts that they don’t event now (since the book is not yet on the hand). This kind of nationalist vary from the outsiders very far from Serbia to the desperate members of minorities within Serbia who have hard to accept that fact that they are and still will be for very long time citizen of “beloved” Serbia but nationals of other nation while Albanians are free to decide for their future. Anyway let me express my opinion as following:
The topic seems to be complex with all meanings of this word. The Serbs at this moment are interested to keep the Milos Kopiliq as the Serbian hero (who killed the sultan) but indeed they are more interested to defend him as being Serb more than Serb for the very simple reason. If he assumedly would be Albanian then all the propaganda a would have been nothing than bubbles. It means that firstly the Serbs were not the only ones fighting against Turks in BoK where the participation of Albanians until now was excluded and secondly the origin of Milos would indicate that at that time Kosovo was inhabited by Albanians as well. The Serbs could be terribly scared from these conclusions since they should review their long time propaganda and myth created not for the sake of the history but for the deformation of history in their favor. The arguments of Serbian side in many issues seem to be not much valid anymore. Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.
I have often read from the harsh nationalist Szemi and the “philosopher” Ataman many comments about jokes or inferiority & superiority among Albanians and other nations let alone many offences toward Albanians. Concerning the last new positions of you and Albanians ( I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority ) it is worthy to mention that you can feel very well over there and joke all the day about sudxhuks or whatever but you know that what can be joke for you is not for the others and vice versa.
Albanian struggle lasted about 87 years and it was in 1999 finalized with the victory and freedom yet with very high price. Therefore you are free to develop any strategy in order to feel superiors as Albanians are, and not begging to the Serbs every month for so called statute. That is enough to understand who is now superior and inferior. Don’t forget something last. Albanians have won everything thorough sacrifices and nobody has given our freedom as gift until now.
For the one who pretend the origin of Albanians from Dagestan or whatever feel free to visit this link:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/42643/The-Byzantine-Empire#ref=ref476167
Thank you all and have a nice day.
pre 14 godina
Before the slavs came in the Ballkans there where Ilyrians which everyone knows they'r albanian decent.
pre 14 godina
I think its great that this book gets published and that Serbs read it in Serbia. Its time for the people of Serbia to realize that the west, amerikkka in particular have a very nasty agenda for Serbia.
pre 14 godina
Don't listen to this woman, please. Her real name is Anna Di Lellio, she is Italian, and a negationist of the Uçk crimes. Moreover, she depicts Thaçi, Haradinaj and Çeku like "fighters for freedom" and "guardians of democracy"! This just give you the idea of how reliable and "super-partes" the foolish opinions of this woman are.
pre 14 godina
You can talk all you want.
'Anna Di Lellio has afforded us a rare insight into an alternative - Albanian - tradition of the Battle of Kosovo. This valuable collection, meticulously translated, edited and commented, represents a labor of love that is simultaneously of great importance for all students of the Balkan past.' - Ivo Banac, Bradford Durfee Professor of History, Yale University
I am getting my hands on one.
pre 14 godina
Why all this heat? Leave the question of Milos's origin to the historians. The poor lady only studied Albanian epic songs dealing with the Battle of Kosovo! Or, maybe the Albanians should not have been allowed to sing their songs (because due to the objection of commentators above).
pre 14 godina
Guys ! I just read that even Bozo the Clown is actualy albanian! http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=bozo%20the%20clown&sa=N&tab=wi&um=1
pre 14 godina
Guys, please calm down! All this has been written about by Serbs - and with no sense of outrage until now. Before you get too angry, please read these authors:
Rade Mihaljčić writes of Albanian myth in his The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition, tr. M. Hrgović et al., (Belgrade, 1989), in particular on pp. 93-5.
On p. 93 Mihaljčić mentions the romantic and unsupported theory, propagated by Dragutin Kostić, that Miloš Obilić "seems to have come from a region where there has been a distinctive fusion of Serbian and Albanian populations".
More interesting, and seemingly more objective, is another work mentioned by M.:
В. Ћајкановић, Мотиви прве арнаутске песме о боју на Косово, Архив, vol. 1, no. 1-2 (1923), pp. 68-77. -
Čajković says of the Albanian myth: "It is an older and more primitive version of Serbian legend, in general, in its specific local, Kosovo form."... and "When I was in Elbassan with my squadron during the Albanian operations of 1912, I heard about some Albanians who were said to be descendents of Miloš Obilić. In Ohrid, I had the opportunity of seeing a sword (a very ordinary one which was certainly younger than the eighteenth century) which was supposed to have belonged to Miloš. All this goes to show that Miloš was a hero with a cult and a traditions all of his own among both Albanians and Serbs. Thus he is not only a Serbian but an Albanian hero, too."
Also - something not by a Serb:
A. Шмаус, Косово традицији код Арнаута, ППНП vol. 3, no. 1 (1936)
So, Serbian - and other - historians have known of these old, popular Albanian myths/epics for a very long time and have found them interesting and worth noting in their own work.
Translating this Albanian epic into English is a great service, and does not denigrate Serbs in any way.
pre 14 godina
“Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons”
After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???? We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists telling us stories about suxhuks and Russian kitchen. You said you don’t want Vojvodina back but you are begging to the Serbs almost every day about the statue. Even today you have an article about it. Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!! No at all since we have seen quite different view from the most of Hungarian minority here in the course of time. I don’t think any reason as an Albanian to bias any issue between Polish and German people for example. For the second time please, what the hell are you doing here???
“You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.)”
My statements are based on the information accessible to everyone. Here you have some extract from his background:
“Klose's father is from an ethnic German family and thus they were permitted to settle as Aussiedler in West Germany.”
I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Miroslav_Klose
The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks. The most valuable consideration comes from the victims of the WWII the Jews who fully respect us that not a single Jew was killed in Albanian hand during the war. Their support for Kosovo just confirms the facts.
“You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories”
During the communists era the isolation of the country didn’t give the talents any opportunity to participate in international games. In order to see Albanian names on the doors of departments or websites of Nobel prizes (two of them) actors of Hollywood or scientists you better visit the west oriented source of information and not propagandistic and old era archives. Even one of the best ex Yugo actor namely Bekim Fehmiu was of Albanian origin.
pre 14 godina
In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid.
pre 14 godina
“I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.”
The object of discussion was the book about the origin of Milos Kopiliq. I didn’t say surely that he is Albanian but I asked you to provide reliable sources that he was truly of Serbian origin (not collection of disputed Serbian sources). Therefore I don’t have to provide sources of being Albanian but everybody has a right to discuss the new facts and arguments which come up. You reaction with words such as satirical humor or stupid was childish which makes me to believe that you rate very high the Serbian sources/fairytales and dispute very easily the other (the author is not Albanian at all). In such case I personally wouldn’t react without knowing the content and the arguments since you pretend to be unbiased. If u were a Serb of course I would expect you to dispute the book in the first moment for the reasons everybody knows.
“Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?”
Please refer to the content below:
In order to validate my statements made above let me remind you two Poland born football players of German ethnicity: Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski. Their names are clearly of Slavic origin namely Miroslav + Podolski and everybody would highly doubt that they are of German origin which means that the logic based only on the names sometimes results invalid
“And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek”.
I would never call anybody stupid when she/he says that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek or whatever. Instead I would kindly ask for the facts and arguments (not from Albanian sources) in order to justify the claim and counter facts from our (Albanian) side. You are welcome anytime
pre 14 godina
What is scary it looks as Serbs looking for Excuse to bash on Albanians. and then expect them to be in one country. Milos obilic/Kopilic is Serbian Hero. this lady is not Albanian and even if she was is one person representing the nation.
Please stop thinking in the past this is the reason we have so many issues, Who cares what happend in 1300 hundred. Look forward only solution is North Mitrovica to Serbia Bujanovc to Kosovo.
We are not evolved enouh to live together maybe in 200 years and that if we dont look the past
pre 14 godina
Hi everybody,
It is really amaizing to go through these comments... I had a feeling that everyone of you has lived on 1389, this is ridicoulus... One thing is sure that none of balcan countries has teached to their children the real history, the history has been manipulated in order to rise nationalism that in fact was and still is a "bum-a-rang" for balcan countries. Nor serbs nor albanians can prove exactly who the man was that killed the Sulltan. If serbs say so, where is his land? his remainings of house? where is his tombe? where are facts? probably he was just an invention after Sulltans death! who knows... in the end does not change anything whomever he was. One thing is true that the batle of Kosovo was a batle of balcan people against turks, so there were bullgarians, hungarians, serbs, albanians and for this there facts that have remained in the archives of turkish museums. Also what is fact that the batle of Kosovo was a lost batle for balcan countries, after the turks won the batle of Kosovo they occupied all the region.
So my dear ballkanians do not get angry for these things, lets do more research, find facts and lets accept the history as is and not a fabricated history.
Bottom line: there is an investigation going on about europian identity, in a laborator through ADN material, up to now the results are showing that: italians make 8.5%, albaninas 7.4% and the greeks 6.9%. these are facts what genetics are showing.
pre 14 godina
"According to the author’s biography, Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
Well that says it all. I guess she was paid a good amount by the Albanian propaganda machine to write such garbage. Maybe for her next book she can write how Skanderbeg was half Montenegrin.
pre 14 godina
I assume you are from Vojvodina Hungarian minority (Marinels, 2 July 2009 13:48)
Well not exactly maybe altogether we have spent no more than one week in Vojvodina and If you had read some of our other comments than you would have realized that we do not want it back due to many reasons.Attaman happens to be half russian half hungarian while I am half polish half hungarian.We have been brought up in circumstances when a good sense of humour helps to survive.We simply like lo laugh and joke about some things and you albanians with your childish comments provide a good ground for it.You albanians are good at creating false statements(see your Podolski and Klose argument among your comments) and being big guys under the skirt of others (Hitler,Turks,Neocons etc.) You have never won a single medal in olympic games,never had a participant in tennis grand slam event,a single player in the NBA,Your team has never participated in World Cup,and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world. that is why you have to create such false theories.
pre 14 godina
if he was born in Albania or no, that I don't know, but you can be born in south America, and still be a Serb. + that region was a part of Serbia. We have songs about Milos Obilic, and battle on Kosovo, much, much, older than your country is...
Do you even know how u got your country?
pre 14 godina
Ataman,
Herby I withdraw any of my previous critics about Daco-Roman legend.This storia albanese exceeds any boundaries of imagination.I am sitting and watching just like Rosy in the cinema.Another proof that there is no limit to stupidity.Such stories reflect a very serious inferiority complex.
pre 14 godina
“I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.”
Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it.
“I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so”
You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so.
“Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.”
You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was.
pre 14 godina
'Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use.'
Today, sure, but in the oldest church records of births in Kosovo, Albanian names alternat with Slavic names in the same family - an "Albanian" father might have a "Serbian" son who then has an "Albanian" son himself.
In a book on the Ottoman Empire I read a long time ago, a man living in Thessalonika described his family: one brother lived in Durres and was an Albanian, another lived in Istanbul and was Turkish, and he himself was Greek. So what did nationality mean then? About as much as being from a U.S. state means today, it seems: it's where you live, pay your taxes, and eventually pick up the local dialect.
pre 14 godina
Thieving business or should i say, business as usual :) it's like with our serb land kosovo. We have something they dont, be it land, be it national heroes, they try to steal it. pinch lord nelson off brits, why don't you :)) I hear there's plenty of albanian mafia in london anyway. so albanians steal from them OR ask your western masters to also donate heroes when they donate money for your food, water, electricity. but don't try to steal from us, we're serbs, we're crazy, didn't you watch cnn :)))
Anyway seriously about the inane story. milos is a slavic name. I hate to point it out but Kopile means bastard in serbian. kopilic is a patronymic of bastard. -ic, ich patronymics are slavic things :) In english it would be bastardson or something:)) i aint never heard of a serb whose name translates to bastardson. heck i dont know about albanians. but i doubt it? anyway to cut it short. Whoever's writing this book is taking the micky or should i say milos :)) out of you albanians, and for a pretty lobbyist dollar no doubt. we serbs are very entertained. If we were gentler folks we'd feel sorry.
pre 14 godina
this is even beating the - nazi-rooted - nonsense of illyrian roots of albanians, instead of the real/caucasian ones ...
(raso, 30 June 2009 17:04)
Raso, it's 100% impossible for "Shqip" to have anything common with "Lezg" (Caucasus-Albanians) simply because the structure of "Lezg" language is close to Hungarian, the structure of "Shqip" language is fairly close to, say, Romanian or Serbian. These are like fire and water, very far away. With the same success you could say, Sioux Indians and Russians are the same.
But there is not much proof, "Shqip" langauge is Illyrian either. There is a very much accepted speculation about Thracian or Dacian roots. Being Illyrians directly is a myth and there was significant Celtic population, too. We can assume some Celtic / Illyrian / Thracian / Dacian mix, but probably never will know who and at what degree.
pre 14 godina
*facepalm*
I seriously wouldn't be surprised to hear breaking news "New discovery! Jesus Christ was Albanian!"
And I don't blame poor Albanian people themselves, cause they don't even KNOW whats happening around them...
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
I blame USA government for being what they always were since the day they exist - DISGUSTING, ARROGANT, CORRUPTED TYRANTS AND DECEIVERS!
pre 14 godina
Albanians are not the only ancesstors of Illyians. Illyrians used to live on territory which spreaded to the borders between Slovenia and Croatia. There are much more ancestors of Illyrians in Bosnia then in Albania let alone in Kosovo.
Ilyrians were not a people. They were bunch of tribes.
Albanian homeland is Dagestan.
pre 14 godina
@ 85, SRBOSLAV
"I read on some Albanian website that they had polar bears in the "Albanian Alps" together with snowleopards and lamas"
True.They had also apes in Albanian Alps. All the animals lived in a perfect harmony - no atrocities of any kind, just endless love. The apes were sitting on enormously tall trees picking bananas and feeding them to the rest of animals who could not reach them. All these inhabitants became angels and flew all over the world to spread their good deeds.
But their good nature continues to live in the humans from that region.
We all know how the Albanians are incapable of committing any atrocity. And to honor the memory of those tall banana trees they declared their own, independent, Banana Republic...
pre 14 godina
(szemi, 2 July 2009 15:24)
On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.
pre 14 godina
I don't understand why so many people are expressing high emotional feelings towards Albanians for this book. At the end the author is not Albanian, and not every book written about history is true.
But what I know, is also that not every history myth is true either. There is no country or nation on earth that doesn't have national historical figures they look upon who are not filled with myth, I truly believe that Serbs and Albanians make no exception.
In the end reading it doesn't hurt anyone, you don't have to believe what you read and to believe that you can stop books for being published or information to go through is an idea which finds no ground in our globalized world.
pre 14 godina
One more thing, Do you know something about Serbs during Stefan Nemanja? I mean, where it was first located, what was the name? If u would know that, you would know who build churches. Just don't tell me that Stefan Nemanja was born in Albania, and his name was bla bla bla
pre 14 godina
equally to say, the only Serb ever existed was aleksandar obrenovic. Except for his two twin grandsons, naser oric and stipe mesic.
any living citizen of Serbia has in his genes a trace of albanian tribal clans, delije, and grobari (or, originally, delijqe and grobarxi).
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
so much left to become known in this world.
pre 14 godina
"Lellio is a guest professor"
Or maybe is schoolgirl?? ;)
pre 14 godina
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA there is not a single alban named Milos. That is so hilarious.
pre 14 godina
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 16:40)
Podolski is 100% polish nationality - he have only german passport. Podolski and Klose before they started playing for Germany can play in both polish or german national team. They decided play for Germany only becouse Germany is better team, but Podolski still declare that he is polish.
About Milos Obilic - can Albanians explain how many Albanians have name "Milos"?? I don't know any Albanian with this name, but lot of Serbs.
pre 14 godina
There is a lot of evidence to prove Albanians are descendants of ancient Illyria. Just visit Butrint, Apollonia, and you’ll be shocked. To me it appears that Serbs have created history on someone else’s land. After all they are the ones who moved into Balkans in the 7Th century, not the indigenous people of Balkans. US also had a big battle of Normandy; we soon should start claiming that part of a US territory, or should we?
(adrianlehman, 30 June 2009 20:49)
Actually, only you, albanians, speak about thath so-called proofs while entire world still cant find any proof of what you say. Albanian and ellyrian languages belong to two different groups (SATEM and CENTUM) so albanian language tells us that Albanians are not desendents of ellyrians.
As for Milos being Serb, there are turkish and other sources telling us so.
pre 14 godina
The name doesn´t mean a thing in History. There are many Albanians of orthodox faith in Albania named Milos, In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola. Is he maybe Serb? The battle of Kosovo was not fought by only Serbs, But Milos Obilic was certainly a Serb and this book it simply tacles a topic in an unresearched way, by an amateur writer.
pre 14 godina
'On the other hand, they have Imre Kadare.'
The Hungarian influence here is apparently stronger than I realized.
pre 14 godina
INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
pre 14 godina
Obilic is from old historic France! Or Gaul, as the region was called at that time. Usually the name was written "Obelix" there...
God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)
pre 14 godina
Marinels
"Once again we have an unbiased person who highly doubts based on????? The same like you my friend I also highly doubt that he was Serbian based on many fairytales created by the Serbs though their enormous propaganda since their arrive in BALKANS. I would advice you to read the book first and than to “highly” doubt if the arguments given there are true or false. BWT provide us here reliable sources except Serbian that he was a Serb. In my secondary school I also learned that he was of Albanian origin but of course you wouldn’t believe it."
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/articles/emmert.htm
I think it is you who should provide an unbiased source showing that he was Albanian, in English please.
Besides, Milos is a well known Slavic name. Since when was it ever Albanian?
And stop with the Slavic vs. Albanian nonsense, I, for example, will never say that Skenderbeg was Serbian/Greek.
"You thinking have made you of very hot target of disputation. For the sake of seriousness should heavily review you thinking before expressing them here. At least I think so."
Can you give an example of what you are saying, because I don't agree with this.
"You are still trying to serve us here the Slavic population as the only contributor to the resistance against Turks. That is not only naïve but very high scale of deformation of the past on your favour/interests. In order to be unbiased you better find a balance between the Serbian fairytales and the truth which could be the minimum of your contribution in this forum. So far I don’t recall any decisive victory of Serbian camp against the Turks until 18 century when their Russian brother gave the independence as a present. Don’t wonder that one day any “polish” from ex German territories of today Poland can be such noble man as the Zawisza Czarny was."
I never said that the Slavs were the only contributors against the Turks, when did I ever say that anywhere?
The biggest victory carried out against the Turks was at Vienna, which was made up of Slavic (Polish and Ukrainian), Germanic (Austrian and German) and Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) soldiers, they all contributed to victory.
You assume far too much.
pre 14 godina
Piotr,
I am not afraid of germans turning Zawisza Czarny into their hero.AS opposed to albanians they do not suffer of inferiority complex.However If albanians multiply at current rate in 100 years they will be knock,knock,knocking on Poland's door.Then they will try to turn Zawisza Czarny into their hero by all means.Of course first comes Vasil Levski since bulgaria is a bit closer geographicly .
pre 14 godina
Marinels - please tell me how many "Albanian knights" can lived in 14th century Kosovo, if in Turkish cadastral tax census from 1455 (Branković lands) we can read, that on this territory were:
13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling
So - where is place for Albanian nobles (knights was part of noble class)???? If In 1455 here were only 46 Albanian dwellings (there were more Vlach dwelling than Albanian!!!!) - so how many K-Albanians can fought in Battle of Kosovo in 1389????
pre 14 godina
Marinels, too bad that you haven't mentioned Fascist Albania during ww2, genocide on 10000 Serbs in Kosovo&Metohija, expulsion of 100000. There was albanian partizans during ww2 like there was italian partzans, but both countries were primarily fascist states in ww2. In other hand comparing to 29000 albanian (at the end of the war) partizans there was whole Serbian nation that fought and suffered under occupators. I will mention thath Albanians in northern Greece massacred Jews. Have you heard that story?
pre 14 godina
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there.
@ Milan,
I think you misunderstood Marinels. He did not mean 28 000 deaths of the Scanderbeg SS division. He was refering to the 28 000 Albanian partizans killed by Nazis and their collaborators.
When he mentioned Scanderbeg, he was refering to the Albanian hero who fought against the Turks in the 15th century.
pre 14 godina
INDEED Anna Di Lellio DOES NOT TRY to say that he is Albanian or Serb. But, her extensive research shows that the Albanian side is more complete. There are folk song and stories written and unwritten which shows that Milush Kopili was true Albanian.
She's just putting the facts on the plate and leaving up the reader to decide which side has more arguments and facts.
Serbs are mad because this books shows that all folk songs that were sang and said about him clearly emphasize the Albanian element. Not even Serbs( who had a kingdom) did not know about him. But, Albanians who got islamicised massively, lost their royal pride (Dukagjini, Kastrioti families were destroyed by Ottomans) and still Milush Kopili retained element of Albanians among folks.
I mean, Serbs were the ones who called us Turks but Serbs lack of a single argument to show Milush was a serb besides fabrications by their writers all penned in 20th century. They never did a real research.
Serbia's claim to Kosove is bogus. Kosove was a base to start another war to take the north and have access to the sea. Serbs still sleep at night dreaming about Greater Serbia.
Her work is going to make a major debut in Europe and the US.
(Kosovar, 3 July 2009 10:42)
Her work will be a huge success alright when she rakes in a fortune from deluded Albanians. That gives me an idea.
I know what i'm going to do. I'm going to write a book and say that Elvis was Albanian and watch the moolah flow in.
So you say that Serbia's claim to Kosmet is bogus, well I have a question here Einstein. Who built the churches and monasteries?
...the lizard people.
Are you David Icke himself?
pre 14 godina
I think that the author did this as a kind of satirical humour to try and downplay the nationalism we see in the Balkans, I highly doubt anyone is that stupid as to believe that Milos Obilic was actually Albanian.
I think our Serbs here are taking this a bit too seriously, it is meant to be a joke, at least I think so.
Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
pre 14 godina
Though on the other hand, I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone wrote a book portraying Zawisza Czarny (who, I don't know if the Serbs here know, fought alongside the Serbs in the Battle of Golubac against the Turks together with Polish cavalry) as a German, but I'd know it's someone just trying to get people to loosen up, or something.
(Peter Sudyka, 1 July 2009 08:50)
According to some german books, creator of polish state - Mješko I - was germanic nationality (with name "Dagome") ;)
So - some "pseudohistorians" need to support nationalistic claims to any territory with revoke history. If Miloš Obilić was Albanian and in battle of Kosovo fought "albanian knights" - than Kosovo land must be albanian, If Mješko I was germanic - than territory of Poland must back to Germany etc.
But I believe that these pseudohistorians are very small minority.
pre 14 godina
they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
(szemi, 1 July 2009 17:11)
Maybe, but I did see some good exemptions once in a while. The best to watch are debates between Greeks and Albanians about fustanella on Youtube. I don't know, but they should rater ask their boss (wife/gf). She may suggest, it's more important what is under it, than who invented it.
pre 14 godina
"In fact there is an Albanian poet call Milos Gjergj Nikola.Is he maybe Serb?"
(adrianlehman, 1 July 2009 22:18)
Adrian - Do You know family history of this albanian poet?? He was ALBANIZED SERB. When he was young, he learn in SERB ORTHODOX SCHOOL in Skadar. On this territory still live Serbian minority.
So - any other evidence of use name of Miloš by REAL ALBANIAN?? ;)
pre 14 godina
That's just funny. I'll tell you just this. If Milos Obilic was albanian knight,how is it possible that you can't find even one albanian with that name?! Milos is serbian name. You can find thousands of serbs with that name.
pre 14 godina
In particular - every second Albanian has "Попович" family name - didn't you know? The rest are all "Романов", like Peter the Great.
(Ataman, 30 June 2009 17:18)
Ataman,
don´t do that to me, please ; )
pre 14 godina
Finally someone who is telling history the way it is. Serbia cannot be allowed to keep distorting Albanian history by fabricating facts and Serbicizing Albanian national figures. Thanks to the author for being courageous.
(Rebel, 30 June 2009 16:55)
Well I know that we live in a world of devalued words(just think about the following ones:democracy,freedom)but mistaking courage with stupidity may be a bit too much.
pre 14 godina
There is little info of the battle of Kosovo in 1389. But also, although it was in 14th century, it was heard of in the rest of Europe and written down. If you try to find these records, you will find that the Serbs stopped the Turks for a while at Kosovo (both had heavy losses, many consider it a stalemate, since the Turks returned some 40 years later. it was a loss in the long run for the Serbs), and praises of various rulers and characters who lived at the time.
Albanians have also most likely even been in league with the Turks, with their territorial pretensions to the northeast manifesting even then.
pre 14 godina
It's really sad!
I hope Serbian governement will react about this history fabrication by kosovo Albanians. They should sue the the publisher and the author of the this so called history book.
If we don't react they could try again with some other part of Serbian history. We have already witnessed naming Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries as "Albanian"!
pre 14 godina
I thought the Pope was Albanian...but then again wasn't Elvis Presley, Joseph Stalin and JFK?
pre 14 godina
This is really unnerving to say the least. I am a history major about wrap up my master's and this is just flat out disappointing. It is common knowledge Obilic is Serbian. I have NEVER heard anything to counter this. I never heard of this professor or read her book. Maybe she has evidence? I doubt it.
If her claim is as false as it sounds then the historical community will bash her into submission.
I am just disturbed because Palgrave Macmillan is a respected publisher of history books. I am just sad they would print something that seems so terribly false.
pre 14 godina
Marinels wrote: After this comments I think it is my turn to laugh strongly. Man you say you have spent only one week over there then what the hell are doing in this forum???
Well indeed I used Vojvodina(vajdaság)mainly for crosing on my way to Bg and Kosovo.So it seems that albanian lack the sense of topology as well.Actually I co-worked in Kosovo with polish and hungarian military personal as well as former UMNIK spoksmen hungarian Kakukk György.So I happen to be not such an outsider anyway.
Knowing your one side mentality I fully understand that those who do not sing albanian song are a bit inconvinient to you on this forum .I would however warn you that this forum is run by a serbian media organ so do not try to steal it and dictate rules.You can allow this kind of arrogance as long as you are under Nato mama's skirt.As to hungarians from Vojvodina I know and hosted a lot of them at my home and well their attitude towards albanians is rather mixed.In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals involved mainly in narco business(together with gypsies fully control this branch).UDI has some support mainly among members of far right,commies and extreme liberals otherwise the majority of society is unintersted.
Marinals wrote We need really outsiders who are unbiased and objective in order to bring us Albanians und Serbs closely in order to make the things clear properly and overcome our existing problems and not a bunch of communists
As to bunch of communist I would rather keep silent because the UDI in central and eastern european countries was mainly supported and forced by those "democrats" who were the most eager commies of the region not so long ago simply now they lick the boots of some brusselits and guys in Washington.Had it not been for Comrade TIto you would have been kick out of Kosovo finaly the same way Germans were kicked out of Poland after forced colonizatin lasting several centuries.
pre 14 godina
in the very first day this article appeared here I wrote a short comment.
actually what was the reason to censor or to be precise, to withhold my comment about this book?
was it the mentioning of the term "inferiority complex"?
or that I find it amusing how some businessmen are writing "books on demand" ...which will be sold only among albanian nationalists?
whatever it is, B92 once has once more shown their unpfrofessional face.
pre 14 godina
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.(Webber)
Definitely but most of these are also of albanian origin from Serbia. For years they were reported as Yugoslavs then serbs finally media and programs dealing with crimes became more straight and reported them as albanians from serbia or kosovo albanians.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians.(WEbber)
Despite the not too perfect serb-hungarian relations(and belive me I Could constract a much longer list of atrocities committed by both)except some Gárda and Jobbik members this is not the case.Hungarian political elite have always been "good" at choosing allies and we know the consequences.Sad to say hungarians have always been good servents of german intersts even against their own in the region.Unfortunately the bootlicking(szarosnyelvû) mentality besides albanians is very characteristic to hungarians.Anyway have you ever read a book of some known hungarain expert of middle ages like Mályusz Elemér for example.There you could learn about 'friendly'albanian merceneries who killed off a significant part of hungarian population under the turkish wings.
Szemi: "and I have never seen any albanian name on doors of math departments anywhere in the world"
So much for the logic here. I have been to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Greece, USA, Canada, Mexico, and I have not seen any Hungarian, so they may not exist.
Because you have not seen something, it does not mean it is not there. (Geni,)
That is perhaps because you do not understand any hungarian word while I happen to know at least the form of albanian names.And simply I have never heard of any significant albanian achievement in the field of mathematics.
pre 14 godina
If you watch most Holywood films about the World Wars you would think that the US won everything single handedly.
Rewriting a minor epic like this is a mere flea-bite in comparison to the normal stuff that flows out of the US.
pre 14 godina
Well, according to the article this house publishes books mainly in the field of social sciences.
Looks to me they are merely expanding into fiction as well. That's alright, I guess.
pre 14 godina
I can't wait for her next book titled....
Stongest Allies in History
Jews and Nazis
pre 14 godina
There's one thing that's sure about Miloš Obilić's ethnic identity: Being a knight he would have been offended to be told that he had ANYTHING in common with Serbian or Albanian peasants.
He probably would have challenged any noble who said such a thing to a duel; while a peasant who made such a suggestion would have been lucky to survive the day.
He would have looked down on most of the participants in this forum (including myself), because I'm afraid none of us would have met his social and ethical standards.
Whether he was Serbian (I suppose he was) or Albanian (why not?) he was a Christian, and a noble. He would not have cared much about ethnicity - he surely associated with other noble Christians, regardless of that.
pre 14 godina
Next thing you know Michael Jackson was albanian. Come on folks people write books about everything distorting to truth changing history etc. Focus on the things we can change not some folkore book someone is writing just to write.
pre 14 godina
I BLAME USA GOVERNMENT! for writting Albanian history and just using them as an object of entering Kosovo so they could build their bases there.
(nemogudaverujem, 30 June 2009 21:03)
C'mon, there is a lot of controversy about US history and believe me, they in USA don't care less. Please no conspiration theories and no need to demonize. USA is so diverse, your stereotypes just won't fit.
Otherwise before more insanity about demonic America, Albanian Obilic, Shqip Lezgs and such comes from both sides:
1) Turkish word "kubila" means "MURDERER".
2) Family name "Kubilay" is pretty common in Turkey.
3) Compare it with "Kublai Khan" (Mongolian and Turkish are relative). Kublai is not "murderer" but the Great Khans were fancy to use some bombastic names. I am sure, it does not mean "good samaritan" in Mongolian. ;)
4) Remove that "k" from "Kubila", what does it mean in Russian? (OK, that is probably a coincidence)
According some theories (please DO NOT look up the English "Wiki"!) the name was given by Turks.
The original person is most likely the brother of the Queen Milica, Nikola Vratković. "Miloš" was his nickname and "Kubila" was added later by Turks.
According the Turkish historian İdris-i Bitlisî, (died 1520) Sultan Murad was killed by a person called "Nikola".
Worth to read the "Wiki" in German... ;)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos_Obilic
pre 14 godina
"Worth to read the "Wiki" in German"
(Ataman, 30 June 2009; 21:56)
Indeed.
So, he (Milos) was born in Dvoriste, Pocerina, but then in both Kobilje near POzarevac and Dvoriste near Golubac and Pozarevac is not in Pocerina... Golubac even farther from...
Milos -der Liebliche was Nikola - Car Lazar's wife Milica's brother who was engaged or married to Mara, his own sister's daughter...
Where is the proverbial german precision,to separate clearly the legend, speculations, historical facts?
pre 14 godina
My God, how many names out there can be distorted and made to sound like another nationality.
We have all borrowed something from each other over centuries. There are too many names which sound similar names from countries on another continent.
Milos is a name I seriously doubt any Albanian would use. Even J.K. Rowling is more credible than this "author".
pre 14 godina
Did everyone know that Milosevic was actually Albanian too!?
pre 14 godina
Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
(Russian, 1 July 2009 00:12)
Jesus, you are RIGHT! Shame, shame... :(
Me old idiot, I should not write at 2 AM.
pre 14 godina
Come on guys. I'm Albanian and i know he is your hero. We Albanians have nothing to do this book. Your heroes are your heroes, our heroes are our heroes. God bless.
pre 14 godina
szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Well I think we have learned a lot on this forum about their mentality.They know no jokes and take everything seriously.Again IMO a very deep inferiority complex is in the background.Is it possible that between Gdansk and Athens they are the only ones without any sense of humour?
pre 14 godina
"God, what a crap... It even beats the story about the polar bears in the Albanian Alps :-)"
But, but, but, don't say its not true?!!? ;-) I read on some albanian website that they had polar bears in the "albanian alpes" toghether with snowleopards and Lamas, are you saying that its not true??????
It must be Milosevic propaganda to discourage tourism to the "albanian alpes" to look at these amazing animals there ;-)
pre 14 godina
"Can any of you name any fact that this guy was Serbian."
No, obviously he was Belarusian - what else could "кабыла" be?
pre 14 godina
Szemi, you wrote:
"In Hungary herself albanians are rather known as hitmen and criminals."
Exactly the same thing could be said of the image of Serbs in Hungary. There are Serbian hitmen and drug smugglers in Hungarian prisons too.
Only as a matter of fact, the image of Serbs is much worse in Hungary than the image of Albanians. Relations between Hungarians and Serbs have been "less than perfect" for about four centuries now. Shall I remind you of what happened to some Hungarian villages in the early 1990s in Slavonia? Hungarians remember, even if you forget. But then we could talk about Partisan atrocities against Hungarians after WWII, and then we should also mention massive Hungarian atrocities against Serbs during the war; and the same for WWI; and 1848-49; and you can go right back to the 17th century.
All along the way Hungarians and Serbs mutual "love and understanding" is evident.
Leave Albanians out of it, Szemi. They are one European people with whom Hungarians have never had a single fight in all of history.
pre 14 godina
Milos Obilic was also known as Milos KoBilic, not "KoPilic". Mid XV and early XVI century he was mentioned in some chronicles as Milos Kobilac and Milos Kobilovic.The origins of both Obilic and KoBilic have been explained in two legends. According to the one explaining the name KoBilic, Miloc was suckled by a mare till the age of seven, and thanks to the mare-milk, he gained and showed enormous strength from the earliest days of his life.Albanian KOPILIC, most likely came either as mispronunciation of KoBilic, or as mocking connection to the word "kopile" -bastard. The root of the word "kopile"? To the best of my knowledge (I might be wrong, though) in Vlachs Romanian living in Serbia it simply means kid, child. How the word got the meaning bastard don't ask me.
How he became an Albanian hero we all know.
pre 14 godina
ceca's aspiring bodily parts are as well albanian.
(radio303, 30 June 2009 22:48)
Not sure, she is the best looking (?!!??!!!) - but her "ARGUMENTS" are quite overwhelming... to say the least. :(
Nooo.... When it comes to more important part of the life than politics - than Vlora Citaku for president!!! At least in that case no one does dispute the ethnic background and V.C. wins hands down and miles ahead.
pre 14 godina
I believe there is even a more deep rooted conspiracy here that nobody has picked up on yet.
The US government is just a false puppet state for Albanians who want to start a new world order of the Albanian race. "Greater Albania" is actually going to start with taking over the whole of Europe and then the entire world.
Kosovo and the present day blatant modification of historical facts is just the first step in claiming the planet Earth for the almighty Albanian race.
In 100 years time every single person in the world will be speaking Albanian and bowing down to the Supreme Emperor of the World Agim Ceku.
Every single person past and present will be known as being Albanian! Heed my words...
pre 14 godina
what is amazing is how little evidence there is that milos kopilic even existed. in fact, most of the evidence comes from fables and natioanlistic songs. the battle of kosovo, though it has been awarded much significance by the serbs, in fact remains a mystery. very little is known about it
(arion, 1 July 2009 08:38)
But Sultan was killed somehow. They do not like to mention much about it. According them, "Nikola, the killer" did allegedly do it. Him being Albanian is mildly speaking a phantasy.
pre 14 godina
The world has gone mad! They now claim this church too. It is an old albanian church according to them!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31hbmMtS8E
pre 14 godina
@ poster No. 68
As per prof. Banac, the book represents "a labour of love"
Once upon a time "Zmajs" used to visit the beautiful women by night in their chambers. And the lucky women would give a birth to supernatural heroes.
It appears that over the time "Zmajs" became less picky in regard to beauty and sex, thus the labours are producing kitschy books with even kitschier introductions.
Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
pre 14 godina
Could be, Logic - but somehow here İdris-i Bitlisî does sound more realistic. "Кабыла" is indeed a "mare" in Russian, too - but if I wake up my Russian feet first, I can't imagine a warrior would be nicknamed "Кабылич" or "Кабылович". There is a saying "Кабыла не лошадь, баба не человек" ("a mare is not a horse... " oh, well, male sexism had no borders...)
On the other hand, "Miloš, the killer" from Turkish point of view is pretty plausible.
If indeed "Miloš" ( = "the liked one") was the nickname of Nikola Vratković, the brother of Queen Milica, than we probably have one mystery less.
To consider: both "Nikola" and "Mikola" versions were used frequently. Because of alliteration, a "Mikola" who is popular with ladies could easily become "Miloš".
pre 14 godina
BTW: just googling on "Nikola Vratkovic", it turns out that Albanians know about him and of course they already have a 100% proof, Nikola Vratkovic (and thus Queen Milica) was... guess, who? You guessed correctly, Sioux - but not Illyrians ;)
Hence my earlier statement about Buddha, Dalai Lama, Tokugawa Ieyasu and Triệu Thị Trinh does not needs to be corrected.
@Szemi - a famous Hungarian joke, you maybe know...
Q: "what is the most famous sentence in Madách' most famous work?"
A: "Enver küzdj és bízva bízzál!"
(an other version can be found here, huge collection of old political jokes:
http://mek.niif.hu/00100/00137/html/02.htm )
pre 14 godina
Ataman,
Thank you for the link.Good old memories .Many jokes I have not
heard for more than 2 decades.I laughed off my head reading them but at one moment something crossed my mind and I had to stop laughing.I realized that after all albanians may be right.It is very possible that Obi-Lic was a member of the famous albanian Obi klan.
The most famous member of this klan was Obi-Wan Kenobi . In certain paintings about Obi-Lic it looks as if he had a lightsaber which can be a proof that he might be related to this KLan.
pre 14 godina
MILAN
I have heard this story before, of Mieszko I being German. It amuses me more than it offends, shows how desperately frustrated those German nationalists are ;)
szemi
Honestly, have you ever heard about Albanians claiming Obilic before? I thought it was a sick joke, then I realized they seem to be taking it seriously.
Marinels
Both Klose and Podolski are from Œl¹sk, most people there are either Polish, Silesian, German or a mix. Both could get citizenship due to some German origins, but they are hardly German.
pre 14 godina
Marinels:
"Do you really represent the will of the Vojvodina people (Hungarians)!!!!"
Vojvodina peoples are mostly SERBS. Hungarians are MINORITY.
"I know very well German so Aussiedler means a person of German origin mainly from east Europe who comes in Germany to live there. The same is for Podolski. In order to validate the info have a look here."
Klose is not German - his mother was Polish and father described themselves as Silesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Klose)
Podolski is 100% Polish - hie father and mother was polish and his name "Podolski" is typical polish. He said in 2008 that he has Polish blood in him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Podolski).
Both - Klose and Podolski speak polish in home and both have polish wives.
Sorry man - but it's false example.
"The 28000 Albanian heroes fallen in WWII and the name of Scanderbeg tell that we were neither under skirt of Hitler nor under Turks."
???? Do You know how many peoples died fron hands of fascists on whole Yugoslavia?? How many peoples died from hands od fascist 21 SS Division "Skanderberd"??
Much more than 28000 Albanian fascist "heroes"
"Die SS-Division Skanderbeg sollte zur Partisanenbekämpfung in Jugoslawien eingesetzt werden. Während des Sommers operierte sie im Kosovo und im Norden Mazedoniens weniger als militärischer Verband, denn als Terrororganisation gegen die Zivilbevölkerung. Eine unbekannte, aber zweifellos große Zahl von Serben wurde innerhalb weniger Wochen ermordet bzw. aus dem Kosovo vertrieben. Schmidhuber meldete schon im April 1944, dass 40.000 Serben aus dem Kosovo vertrieben worden waren. Der SS-Führer ging davon aus, dass noch mehr als 100.000 Serben vertrieben werden sollen."
"Am 28. Juli 1944 ermordeten Angehörige der Division im Dorf Veliko 380 Einwohner, darunter 120 Kinder, und setzten 300 Häuser in Brand. Die Juden im Kosovo wurden, soweit sie nicht hatten fliehen können, gefangen genommen und ins KZ Bergen-Belsen deportiert. In Skopje unterstand der Einheit ein Lager, in das die mazedonischen Juden verbracht wurden, bevor man sie in deutsche KZs abtransportierte. Die Gewalt der SS-Einheit richtete sich auch gegen die Volksgruppe der Roma."
Translate please and don't speak more about "Albanian heroes" ;)
pre 14 godina
Milan,
Exactly as you wrote.Both Podolski and Klose speak fluent polish and declared themselves Poles several times on polish TV.Now that we have Wimbledon I think they both can be compared to Nestor who is originaly Nestorovic and needless to say none of his parents was canadian.I wonder if albanians will ever try to convert Djokovic into Djokoviq just because in his childhood he started playing tennis near Kosovo.
pre 14 godina
ahahaahahha!!!!!!
pre 14 godina
"Lellio is a guest professor on a masters program of international cooperation at New School University in New York, and works at the Kosovo Institute for Journalism and Communication in Priština."
No ties to Kosovo, eh? Smells like more of the same old propaganda to me. It is quite amusing though considering no one but Albanians in the US or English speaking world will buy this. Heck, it is hard to get anyone to read any book these days...
pre 14 godina
Everybody please calm down. Old folk songs depicting Milos Obilic are not history, they are old folk songs. This is a translation of an Albanian epic song. Not a history. Similar Albanian (and Bulgarian, and Croatian) epic songs have been known and noticed by outstanding Serbian historians for a very long time. One of the best, Rade Mihaljcic, mentions them in his wonderful book, The Battle of Kosovo in History and Popular Tradition. Translations of these folk songs should be welcome by Serbs because they show how influential Serbian history and tradition were. This should be a point of pride - and Milos Obilic remains a Serbian hero. He's great enough to become an Albanian one too
pre 14 godina
They even started saying that Maria Teresa was albanian.
This entire propaganda has been started only a few years ago. If there were any debatable parts of history between the Serbs (who have actually survived for 500 years under Turks thanks to their songs which praise the heroes of the Battle), why come up now? :)
And when a Croat writes an introductory to this book, like one did, you can see what it is, without any "links" and "sources" at all.
pre 14 godina
Oh well, even "Zmajs" are no longer what they used to be...
(Logic, 1 July 2009 23:28)
True. Just look at Mr. Hashish.
pre 14 godina
The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
[link]
(Webber, 2 July 2009 17:20)
Bwaaahaaahaaahaaa :D So - only Albanians described Miloš Obilić as "Albanian knight" ;)
pre 14 godina
This is all excellent fun. Already there are 100+ posts. But this number is surely more than the number of Dollars this book will earn - who will *really* buy it at $50 a pop? Sure, it will find its way into a few 'learned' libraries, but those copies will be bought by some NATO/EU stooge. I suppose one or two local entrepreneurs (i.e. drug barons / traffickers) with a taste for the kitsch might buy a copy to grace some tastefully decorated villa. But what *real* person is going to stump up $50 for a politically expedient re-imagining of a historical event just because it was written by a cheerleader for the recently 'independent' Kososo. Oh, and it might (we hope) really annoy a few Serbs also. Actually, said Serbs are already rolling on the floor helpless with laughter over this load of twoddle.
If anyone does actually buy the scribblings of this "useful idiot", please post a review. I'll read it once I dry my eyes...
pre 14 godina
Ataman, spell correction,in russian "Кoбылa"
pre 14 godina
who cares, no one will buy the book anyway.
pre 14 godina
To Marinels
“Slowly but surely we will see in the future the reveal of many truths concerning the history of Balkans in the past.”
As I can see from plethora of comments above, nobody is going to dispute this line – it seems everybody’s eagerly awaiting it to happen.
And please don’t concentrate on Balkans only – there is a whole wide world out there, so many misteries are waiting to be solved! And who better to solve them, then known champions of arts, literature and science, renowned worldwide for their contributions to progress of humanity?
pre 14 godina
That there are no Americans to write history, this world would be a much nicer place..
how many Americans accepted the Nazis in the 2nd World War..
not even a strange kind of their policy and attitude.. America needs war..
so it will soon start a war but to prevent it..
pre 14 godina
The editor of this book, Anna Di Lellio, has had an interview published in Vecernje Novosti in which she very clearly states what is also clearly said in her book: she has never claimed that Miloš Obrenović was Albanian. She has only translated some Albanian epic poetry, which she also calls "myth".
The interview, in Serbian, is here:
http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=10&status=jedna&vest=149807&title_add=Iznosim%20albansku%20pri%C4%8Du&kword_add=Kosovski%20boj%2C%20ana%20di%20lelio
pre 14 godina
We have already seen that movie! In Macedonia Greek heros from the antiquity and Bulgarian once from the Middle Ages and the Revival are regularly presented as 'Macedonian".
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