Violence rocks Iraq as U.S. prepares to withdraw from cities

God save us from American intervention! Everywhere they have gone they have created havoc and devastation. What's wrong with those people?

What's wrong with those people?
(MikeC, 26 June 2009 15:53)

Their education standard.

Szemi, this video is not far from true. The average American does not know who their senators are, or what states border their own. How in the world would you expect them to have any idea about what is going on in Europe, or specifically the Balkans? Whatever is said on CNN or MSNBC is what most Americans believe is factual. That is why the political parties have died to control these outlets as much as possible. Until a hammer hits them on the head, or pocketbook, Americans have little clue. I'm sorry, but it's pretty much the truth. I should know. I live here.

Even until now most of the killing was done between Iraqis but the US was blamed. Now the world will see that nobody but the Iraqis are to be blamed. Yes this is a question of education.
(Joe, 26 June 2009 22:37)

And rightfully blamed. If a 5-year old child kills an other with AK-47, than for some reason the bigger blame is on the parents.

Here U.S. took responsibility to build a country and failed miserably. Iraqis are who they are and this is not a surprise. I would also add, my "favorite" Iran played a pretty ugly role in Iraq crisis.

But U.S. was the one who did say: "I can do the job". It begun and it turned out, it cannot finish it under any circumstances. You remember that pathetic first week after they entered Baghdad, the week of lootings. Till that happened I was cautiously optimistic because Saddam was a good thing to get rid of. But at the moment the Baghdad archeological museum was looted it became clear: that task (i.e. building up Iraq) is way to demanding for the administration.

By the way: building up Kosovo is by a magnitude easier than building up Iraq and there is less controversy about it among major "Western" powers. Now go to Kosovo and look at that "success".

They had no insurgence, no Saddam, they had 10 years and in general a population supporting U.S. Where all that mess is now - please take a look, but not from CNN.

It is very easy.

Budapest-Skopje-Budapest in overnight train is 66.08 Euro. You do not even need to de-train in that "horrible" Serbia and you will arrive to Skopje in the morning.

Skopje-Pristina-Skopje is about 10 Euro.

It's only one train change - and you can stroll all over that Clinton boulevard and observe the great success of cleptocracy + US-sponsored corruption.

Now, in Iraq it's 1000 times like that.

Feel free to try your way to Pristina... no one will bite you but you can see few funny things. If you are ready to rent a car and drive around, you will see even more.

I usually go all the way with my own car... can tell you that one really does see the difference. But (surprise!) not where UNMIK gate is, the difference is way more south. Guess, why.

What's wrong with those people?
(MikeC, 26 June 2009 15:53)
Basicaly you are what you eat so if you visit following places to eat something http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqnQYq3BQ0k you will not only get fat but also agressive, dumb and narrow-minded as the following examples show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MYV8yJfr7o.

Ataman

For those more comfortable and less enviroment friendly(I fall into this category and Joe may as well) there are flights between BP and Skopje as well as Prishtina.They are usually quite expensive but Malév has two 3-day discount booking periods every month when it is possible to buy round trip tickets to these places for about 25-30000 Ft(ca 100EUROS) .At least I used this option and was fully satisfied(of course with service and not what I saw in KOsovo).

It is wellknown on this site that you take every possible occasion to dump on the US and Kosovo.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

Really? It's a bit exaggerated. Not long ago "Rote Kapelle" and "Hand of Moscow" accused me of same regarding Russia, one of the Adrians (or was it Mircea?) suggested me to take Transylvania from them and once in a while I can become some "violent Vojvodina-Hungarian" for few Serbs (even if I spent a total of 4 days in Vojvodina during my life). You guys either drop that bs or agree quickly who am I.

---------

But few words about Iraq and Kosovo.
As for Iraq Bush was to naive. He believed that we can implant democracy in a country, which never knew one and whose people are not ready for it for at least 100 more years.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

This is all true, plus add: he acted dishonest way before the war begun, he messed up the entire logistics and the policy.

---------

As for Kosovo I believe you.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

Rather than "believe" - go there. It's cheap to go, can be actually fun, but have your eyes open and TALK, TALK, TALK to real people, even to ex-UCK fighters. You will be surprised

---------

It is not Hawaii or Tahiti. But did you ever asked yourself how that place would be populated today if Molosevic has his way with his ethnic cleansing? Did you ever had any feeling about those 1 million people forced out of the country on short notice?
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

#1: Milosevic had nothing against anyone as long as that "anyone" had nothing against "Greater Milosevic". To speak about "what would be" is baseless - the entire country was heading towards "nowhere". Milosevic is in hell, so move on.

#2: The huge refugee problem (1 million or maybe more) arose during the bombings, not before. Here NATO was a major "contributor". We know the rest, the number of civilian victims was very high on both sides. It was a brutal civil war.

---------

Sure Kosovo could look better but for its inhabitants the fact that they are alive today and not terrorized by their former masters is the most important thing.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

You can lower the limbo if that's your goal. Sure, Hungary and Russia would look much better if they weren't terrorized by Mongol-Tatars and Turks and for Hungarians - if they would not terrorized by Hapsburgs after the Turks were chased away.

And? Neither is a perfect excuse. Americans have Kosovo for 10 years and it's a failure. Read postings of some GENUINE Albanians, not the usual "fanboys" and judge yourself.

Now if Americans could not clean up their act in tiny Kosovo properly - what you expect from Iraq adventure?

Ataman,

It is wellknown on this site that you take every possible occasion to dump on the US and Kosovo. I don't want to go into your personal reasons to explain why you are doing it. That is your personal business. But few words about Iraq and Kosovo.
As for Iraq Bush was to naive. He believed that we can implant democracy in a country, which never knew one and whose people are not ready for it for at least 100 more years.
As for Kosovo I believe you. It is not Hawaii or Tahiti. But did you ever asked yourself how that place would be populated today if Molosevic has his way with his ethnic cleansing? Did you ever had any feeling about those 1 million people forced out of the country on short notice? Sure Kosovo could look better but for its inhabitants the fact that they are alive today and not terrorized by their former masters is the most important thing.

Even until now most of the killing was done between Iraqis but the US was blamed. Now the world will see that nobody but the Iraqis are to be blamed. Yes this is a question of education.

Ataman

For those more comfortable and less enviroment friendly(I fall into this category and Joe may as well) there are flights between BP and Skopje as well as Prishtina.They are usually quite expensive but Malév has two 3-day discount booking periods every month when it is possible to buy round trip tickets to these places for about 25-30000 Ft(ca 100EUROS) .At least I used this option and was fully satisfied(of course with service and not what I saw in KOsovo).
(szemi, 27 June 2009 02:18)

Szemi,

I like to go on the "short notice" simply because the life as system programer is unpredictable to a large degree. I am way to close to the "guts" of the OS and with every change there is always a surprise and some stuff to exercise the mind.

And if we travel in gang, it's simply to much of us and car or train is much cheaper. The number of cheap places are way to limited by airlines. And do I hate to fly!!!

As your pro-Iran-"propaganda": yes, I was thinking to go to Iran or maybe even NK since a while. My main problem is the time availability. Of course, both are somewhere in the agenda and of course both are to be by "choo-choo", no airplane. Can be done relatively reasonable and without being "tied down" in advance, Iran in particular.

On the other hand... to be honest, most of Iranian things to see are outside of Iran (Samarkand+ Buchara for instance) - and that is even easier to reach by train. Just give me enough time...

Ataman

Well I have already been to Samarkand and Buchara(flying from Moscow, I prefer air but have a lot of good memories from train travels too).Fascinating.AS to more iranian I Do not think Rather I would say That QOM+YAZD= Samarkand and Buchara when it comes to being iranain + in iran you have persoplis and a very cosmopolitan Tehran which matches Moscow and New York when it comes to crazy city title(Moscow has the best karting tracks that is her adventage maybe).However NK and Korea in General is not my dream destination.I am a big Balkan and Middle east fan(I like both adventure and my stomach).Next time during my travel to Egypt I would like to visit these guys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab besides the well known tourist atractions.They live off the torist path.I heard that members of egypthian security forces do not like if tourist visit such places but who cares i will give it a try.

Even until now most of the killing was done between Iraqis but the US was blamed. Now the world will see that nobody but the Iraqis are to be blamed. Yes this is a question of education.

Ataman,

It is wellknown on this site that you take every possible occasion to dump on the US and Kosovo. I don't want to go into your personal reasons to explain why you are doing it. That is your personal business. But few words about Iraq and Kosovo.
As for Iraq Bush was to naive. He believed that we can implant democracy in a country, which never knew one and whose people are not ready for it for at least 100 more years.
As for Kosovo I believe you. It is not Hawaii or Tahiti. But did you ever asked yourself how that place would be populated today if Molosevic has his way with his ethnic cleansing? Did you ever had any feeling about those 1 million people forced out of the country on short notice? Sure Kosovo could look better but for its inhabitants the fact that they are alive today and not terrorized by their former masters is the most important thing.

God save us from American intervention! Everywhere they have gone they have created havoc and devastation. What's wrong with those people?

What's wrong with those people?
(MikeC, 26 June 2009 15:53)

Their education standard.

What's wrong with those people?
(MikeC, 26 June 2009 15:53)
Basicaly you are what you eat so if you visit following places to eat something http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqnQYq3BQ0k you will not only get fat but also agressive, dumb and narrow-minded as the following examples show http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MYV8yJfr7o.

Szemi, this video is not far from true. The average American does not know who their senators are, or what states border their own. How in the world would you expect them to have any idea about what is going on in Europe, or specifically the Balkans? Whatever is said on CNN or MSNBC is what most Americans believe is factual. That is why the political parties have died to control these outlets as much as possible. Until a hammer hits them on the head, or pocketbook, Americans have little clue. I'm sorry, but it's pretty much the truth. I should know. I live here.

Even until now most of the killing was done between Iraqis but the US was blamed. Now the world will see that nobody but the Iraqis are to be blamed. Yes this is a question of education.
(Joe, 26 June 2009 22:37)

And rightfully blamed. If a 5-year old child kills an other with AK-47, than for some reason the bigger blame is on the parents.

Here U.S. took responsibility to build a country and failed miserably. Iraqis are who they are and this is not a surprise. I would also add, my "favorite" Iran played a pretty ugly role in Iraq crisis.

But U.S. was the one who did say: "I can do the job". It begun and it turned out, it cannot finish it under any circumstances. You remember that pathetic first week after they entered Baghdad, the week of lootings. Till that happened I was cautiously optimistic because Saddam was a good thing to get rid of. But at the moment the Baghdad archeological museum was looted it became clear: that task (i.e. building up Iraq) is way to demanding for the administration.

By the way: building up Kosovo is by a magnitude easier than building up Iraq and there is less controversy about it among major "Western" powers. Now go to Kosovo and look at that "success".

They had no insurgence, no Saddam, they had 10 years and in general a population supporting U.S. Where all that mess is now - please take a look, but not from CNN.

It is very easy.

Budapest-Skopje-Budapest in overnight train is 66.08 Euro. You do not even need to de-train in that "horrible" Serbia and you will arrive to Skopje in the morning.

Skopje-Pristina-Skopje is about 10 Euro.

It's only one train change - and you can stroll all over that Clinton boulevard and observe the great success of cleptocracy + US-sponsored corruption.

Now, in Iraq it's 1000 times like that.

Feel free to try your way to Pristina... no one will bite you but you can see few funny things. If you are ready to rent a car and drive around, you will see even more.

I usually go all the way with my own car... can tell you that one really does see the difference. But (surprise!) not where UNMIK gate is, the difference is way more south. Guess, why.

Ataman

For those more comfortable and less enviroment friendly(I fall into this category and Joe may as well) there are flights between BP and Skopje as well as Prishtina.They are usually quite expensive but Malév has two 3-day discount booking periods every month when it is possible to buy round trip tickets to these places for about 25-30000 Ft(ca 100EUROS) .At least I used this option and was fully satisfied(of course with service and not what I saw in KOsovo).

It is wellknown on this site that you take every possible occasion to dump on the US and Kosovo.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

Really? It's a bit exaggerated. Not long ago "Rote Kapelle" and "Hand of Moscow" accused me of same regarding Russia, one of the Adrians (or was it Mircea?) suggested me to take Transylvania from them and once in a while I can become some "violent Vojvodina-Hungarian" for few Serbs (even if I spent a total of 4 days in Vojvodina during my life). You guys either drop that bs or agree quickly who am I.

---------

But few words about Iraq and Kosovo.
As for Iraq Bush was to naive. He believed that we can implant democracy in a country, which never knew one and whose people are not ready for it for at least 100 more years.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

This is all true, plus add: he acted dishonest way before the war begun, he messed up the entire logistics and the policy.

---------

As for Kosovo I believe you.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

Rather than "believe" - go there. It's cheap to go, can be actually fun, but have your eyes open and TALK, TALK, TALK to real people, even to ex-UCK fighters. You will be surprised

---------

It is not Hawaii or Tahiti. But did you ever asked yourself how that place would be populated today if Molosevic has his way with his ethnic cleansing? Did you ever had any feeling about those 1 million people forced out of the country on short notice?
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

#1: Milosevic had nothing against anyone as long as that "anyone" had nothing against "Greater Milosevic". To speak about "what would be" is baseless - the entire country was heading towards "nowhere". Milosevic is in hell, so move on.

#2: The huge refugee problem (1 million or maybe more) arose during the bombings, not before. Here NATO was a major "contributor". We know the rest, the number of civilian victims was very high on both sides. It was a brutal civil war.

---------

Sure Kosovo could look better but for its inhabitants the fact that they are alive today and not terrorized by their former masters is the most important thing.
(Joe, 27 June 2009 02:43)

You can lower the limbo if that's your goal. Sure, Hungary and Russia would look much better if they weren't terrorized by Mongol-Tatars and Turks and for Hungarians - if they would not terrorized by Hapsburgs after the Turks were chased away.

And? Neither is a perfect excuse. Americans have Kosovo for 10 years and it's a failure. Read postings of some GENUINE Albanians, not the usual "fanboys" and judge yourself.

Now if Americans could not clean up their act in tiny Kosovo properly - what you expect from Iraq adventure?

Ataman

For those more comfortable and less enviroment friendly(I fall into this category and Joe may as well) there are flights between BP and Skopje as well as Prishtina.They are usually quite expensive but Malév has two 3-day discount booking periods every month when it is possible to buy round trip tickets to these places for about 25-30000 Ft(ca 100EUROS) .At least I used this option and was fully satisfied(of course with service and not what I saw in KOsovo).
(szemi, 27 June 2009 02:18)

Szemi,

I like to go on the "short notice" simply because the life as system programer is unpredictable to a large degree. I am way to close to the "guts" of the OS and with every change there is always a surprise and some stuff to exercise the mind.

And if we travel in gang, it's simply to much of us and car or train is much cheaper. The number of cheap places are way to limited by airlines. And do I hate to fly!!!

As your pro-Iran-"propaganda": yes, I was thinking to go to Iran or maybe even NK since a while. My main problem is the time availability. Of course, both are somewhere in the agenda and of course both are to be by "choo-choo", no airplane. Can be done relatively reasonable and without being "tied down" in advance, Iran in particular.

On the other hand... to be honest, most of Iranian things to see are outside of Iran (Samarkand+ Buchara for instance) - and that is even easier to reach by train. Just give me enough time...

Ataman

Well I have already been to Samarkand and Buchara(flying from Moscow, I prefer air but have a lot of good memories from train travels too).Fascinating.AS to more iranian I Do not think Rather I would say That QOM+YAZD= Samarkand and Buchara when it comes to being iranain + in iran you have persoplis and a very cosmopolitan Tehran which matches Moscow and New York when it comes to crazy city title(Moscow has the best karting tracks that is her adventage maybe).However NK and Korea in General is not my dream destination.I am a big Balkan and Middle east fan(I like both adventure and my stomach).Next time during my travel to Egypt I would like to visit these guys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab besides the well known tourist atractions.They live off the torist path.I heard that members of egypthian security forces do not like if tourist visit such places but who cares i will give it a try.