Belgrade-Bar railway to be reconstructed

"Without Eu-money nothing will be done.."
Luigi

Stick to your Albania and don't worry your little head about our affairs.

The link to Albania from Podgorica is long operational. Unfortunately - still no passenger trains running despite the promise. The Albanian network is operational but needs a lot of work. They can't do it on their own and need much more than few second-hand Italian coaches. Please help them, too.

The situation is hair-rising, even Kosovo railway is in better shape. And EU does nothing.

Milan your anti state stance on the railways does not bear out in European practice.

The best European railways are not those that have been privatised such as British Railways / Railtrack. No, the best railways are to be found in places like France, where state ownership was the order of the day.

This anglo saxon (or American) insistence that the market is the answer to everything is simply wrong.

About time... Apart from this, using the train in the Balkans in general is horrible. Main reason: there are no trains. The number of trains leaving and arriving in Belgrade for instance is amazingly small for a city of that size and it is still a mystery to me why. Don't know precisely, but when I was traveling I had the idea there wasn't a single hourly connection, even to major city's. In Albania, the trains look horrible (was part of the fun though, for someone from a wannabe perfect country), but they seem to run more frequent than in Serbia and in Macedonia. The connection between Tirana and Durres is actually quite good. Was in Zajecar some 3 years ago and (correct me if i'm wrong) there was just one train a day to Belgrade, at like 3 o'clock in the middle of the night... But even to get to Subotica is difficult, especially when you want to continue to Szeged in Hungary. When the infrastructure is there, please explain me why there is such a small number of trains. Just don't get it...

UMMMM why is the government involved in every aspect of everyone's lives? If it is profitable enough, then a private company will provide new tracks, trains, etc. The reason there are no trains and bad infrastructure is because of communism for 60 years which had no use for anything efficient or that the people could actually use. Now, there is this chrony-capitalism which is more like fascism in Serbia in which no private company can make a new rail. Why is there a minister for transportation, rail roads, taking a pee, making a cheese sandwich, etc. I mean come on. Get rid of those stupid restrictions, regulations, taxes, etc. and you will end up having a very nice rail road. Also, to those few socialists I will hear say how great the Germany, France, etc trains are... yeah its so nice that it takes 5 hours to get 300 miles on a bullet train. I can drive that distance in 3 hours in America. No government makes anything better than a private company would do it. Face it, this will end with a new railway being built that no one wants that ends up taking longer than going by hot air balloon.

Slovenia is a problem it dose not want to make easy connections to Italy or Croatia. Croatia has been asking Slovenia to improve its roads to Istria and Dalmatia on their side for years. All they say some day but the real reason is they are not happy with tourist not stopping in Slovenia and spending their money in Slovenia. They figure if the connections are bad and the roads to the Italian also to the Croatian border are in a bad state and narrow with traffic jams. That tourist will be spending their money and time in Slovenia instead of just of whizzing by Slovenia that is good neighborly relations from the Slovenians. I think it reflects more badly on the Slovenians and their petty jealousy toward their neighbors. They cant stand their neighbors succeeding mostly their old southern neighbors they try every thing to undermine them very pathetic.

When the infrastructure is there, please explain me why there is such a small number of trains. Just don't get it...
(Julian, 16 June 2009 13:40)

There is shortage of locomotives everywhere. In Albania besides the route you described the situation is a catastrophe. Without donated / sold used equipment from Sweden there wouldn't be any trains running around Zajecar, also BiH and Kosovo.

In early 80-s you could travel from BP to Sofia during the day - no chance at this moment. Last year there were numerous fire incidents in Bulgaria and a famous archeologist died as his sleeper burned out. At least, THAT was spared in ex-YU+AL.

Despite all this, the railways on Balkans are not the biggest offenders. The situation in Italy is relatively worse. I say "relatively" because we cannot expect same level in Albania than in Italy, given one is much poorer. But adjusting to the expectations, Italy is worse. At least try to travel with "Eurostar" train and watch your breath as air conditioner dies and you can't open the window.

Also - at least - there is *** some *** cross-border cooperation. But the cross-border cooperation between Italy and Slovenia is WORSE than between Serbia Proper and Kosovo. In one case there are 3-4 trains daily running in scenic Ibar valley, in other case there is now a SINGLE train, in the middle of night and with obligatory reservation costing a fortune - just making sure, no one would travel between Ljubljana and Venice.

In that light the news sounds pretty funny to me... I suspect the politicians of CG, Serbia, Italy who sit in their comfortable chairs travel in limo or private airplane, not in the "freedom" train or the EN-240. And after the peaceful "separation" the BG-Bar ticket did not became cheaper :(

Nice to see a try tough, but they need to do a bit more in order to get from me somewhat else than a sarcastic laugh.

And as I did mention, we were promised a direct link to Albania. Yes, the rails are there, from Podgorica to Shkodra. But the promised direct link is no more reality than the tunnel under Bering Straits.

But the taxi drivers in Shkodra and PG are very-very happy.

All in one, I would fire all transport ministers in the area, beginning with Russia, ending with Italy. Collect them all, send to Siberia to do some better work. ;)

Hi Julian

I think you will find that most people use a bus or a coach journey. There is a very busy coach station just in back of the rail station where most popular services are frequent.

Stick to your Albania and don't worry your little head about our affairs.
(MikeC, 16 June 2009 12:34)

Luigi is actually right on. Trenitalia is in the permanent state of crisis and asking them for help is really a bad sign. Without EU money the entire railway in Balkan is stuck in nobody's land.

Tito's transport policy wasn't the best - but what came after that + the situation in Albania and Bulgaria is a major tragedy. Without EU funds there would be no trains running. :(

Add bombed bridges and the catastrophic situation between BG and Nis... no wonder, everyone uses buses.

last summer we went to greece (14 hour bus ride - 2 borders) and to crna gora ("10 hour" train ride - 1 border) - besides the bus being more clean & comfortable the train broke down (for 2+ hours) at 3am right before Bijelo Polje - but hey, at least we got to drink lav/jelen/loza with the conductors/engineers while we waited for the new locomotive.

Without Eu-money nothing will be done..we haven't the money and i suspect that either Serbia and Montenegro are in the same conditions...

Thanks Ataman, that explains a lot. But it brings another question... In all of the Balkans buses and trams from all over the world can be seen in the streets (and I hope they never replace them). Something similar should have been possible for the railways.

About the line between Podgorica and Shkodër, that one is amazing. I read about for the first time maybe 5 or 6 years ago. The planned opening for passengers whas 'next year'. Yeah right...

This anglo saxon (or American) insistence that the market is the answer to everything is simply wrong.
(bganon, 16 June 2009 20:20)

I did not wanted to go in that topic, but in human history there is not a single transport agency which made money long-term. Therefore the answer is obvious. With privatization we see many things going from "kind of OK" to "really evil".

It's worth to compare Russian (in the process of semi-privatization) and Chinese (100% state), French (100% state) versus UK (private) cases. Always the "100% state" is the winner. Now with ex-YU, Albania, Hungary, Ukraine, Italy the problem is with the quality of the government, lack of money, lack of professionalism, corruption and everything else we are complaining. USA is a very interesting case because while Amtrak is a "private" corporation, the owner of it is the Congress - so we can regard it as 100% Federal. As such it is a monumental failure and compared with it the usual offenders (ex-YU, Albania, Hungary, etc) look like a success cases. To blame are certain idiotic regulations, protectionism, lack of vision and "pork" (i.e. lobby cases).

We used Amtrak countless times for long-distance - let put it this way, I fully understand people using airplanes and cars, they (Amtrak) is a nut case, only crazy people (like us) would use them, definitly not for normal consumer - blame the politics. Some say, Americans never could run trains properly. I can say, from all services I did experience: given it's potential Amtrak is the poorest and least honest.

Hi Julian

I think you will find that most people use a bus or a coach journey. There is a very busy coach station just in back of the rail station where most popular services are frequent.
(MS, 16 June 2009 16:45)

It also seems, these busses are immune to political conflict. I did see regular busses from Pristina traveling to/from Vienna in Hungary. They looked pretty modern, no objections. If we look at the map, it is obvious they had to go via Serbia Proper.

Try that with railway... no way. All the companies are broke, one way or the other.

But at least the tickets are cheap by "Western" standards, even in Italy. Just make sure you don't buy any ticket overseas, that is including all railway passes a rip-off.

Get them at the station locally, going through KiM is as far as I remember 2 Euro, going through entire Serbia is relatively not much more. The biggest problem is that the lines don't really go where you want, so with usual mandatory places (Sinan Pasha in Prizren - Dechani - Grachanica - Novi Pazar - Studenica - Morava valley - Milesheva - etc.) the trains are just impossible given the odd schedule.

Driving is not that bad, provided one is careful enough and is not in hurry. Otherwise it can be expensive (speeding tickets) and even deadly. 10-15 Euro/person will mean an OK accommodation and buying in grocery stores won't save that much money compared with local little grill restaurants.

Despite the bad name the cops in Serbia and K-Albanian territory are okay, they don't "mooch" the foreigners for bribe as Bulgarians and Ukrainians do.

All that done with US plates, nothing unexpected - in the fact, everyone did think I am Serb (or Albanian) returning home. Driving at Saturday night is not very good idea in KiM because teenagers walk home in the middle of the road from disco and they don't have lights on ;)

I wasn't afraid to pick up some people here and there and give them a lift - once I took somebody across the admin. line, it was obvious he is local and the guards knew him.

yeah, those buses. Do I know about them! Driving for hours, enjoying the views, turbofolk (or real folk when you're lucky) in the background, then a cigarette-break and then some hours more turbofolk and maybe a little sleep, to wake up again in another world...

Thanks for the reactions!

There is a LOT of talk of a Adriatic-Ionian highway as well. That would mean that Europeans start in Slovenia and end up in Greece never further than 1 mile or so from the coast. This would definitely get support from EU population but imagine the mess of confiscating valuable land for 1500 miles of highway. The southern Albanian section is a nightmare, all mountains!

Good luck making it happen though: Croatia is already overloaded with road loans, Crna Gora can't afford a donkey cart road and Albania needs to finish the Fyrom highway.


MikeC, who is financing Serbia? EU, not Russia. Montengro can't afford jack, they're 600,000 people and deeply in trouble as it is. Cigarette smuggling isn't as profitable and their Albanian beach land (Ulqin, Tivar etc) has already been leased for 99 years. Serbia can borrow, but MN can't pay it back

Without Eu-money nothing will be done..we haven't the money and i suspect that either Serbia and Montenegro are in the same conditions...

UMMMM why is the government involved in every aspect of everyone's lives? If it is profitable enough, then a private company will provide new tracks, trains, etc. The reason there are no trains and bad infrastructure is because of communism for 60 years which had no use for anything efficient or that the people could actually use. Now, there is this chrony-capitalism which is more like fascism in Serbia in which no private company can make a new rail. Why is there a minister for transportation, rail roads, taking a pee, making a cheese sandwich, etc. I mean come on. Get rid of those stupid restrictions, regulations, taxes, etc. and you will end up having a very nice rail road. Also, to those few socialists I will hear say how great the Germany, France, etc trains are... yeah its so nice that it takes 5 hours to get 300 miles on a bullet train. I can drive that distance in 3 hours in America. No government makes anything better than a private company would do it. Face it, this will end with a new railway being built that no one wants that ends up taking longer than going by hot air balloon.

"Without Eu-money nothing will be done.."
Luigi

Stick to your Albania and don't worry your little head about our affairs.

The link to Albania from Podgorica is long operational. Unfortunately - still no passenger trains running despite the promise. The Albanian network is operational but needs a lot of work. They can't do it on their own and need much more than few second-hand Italian coaches. Please help them, too.

The situation is hair-rising, even Kosovo railway is in better shape. And EU does nothing.

Stick to your Albania and don't worry your little head about our affairs.
(MikeC, 16 June 2009 12:34)

Luigi is actually right on. Trenitalia is in the permanent state of crisis and asking them for help is really a bad sign. Without EU money the entire railway in Balkan is stuck in nobody's land.

Tito's transport policy wasn't the best - but what came after that + the situation in Albania and Bulgaria is a major tragedy. Without EU funds there would be no trains running. :(

Add bombed bridges and the catastrophic situation between BG and Nis... no wonder, everyone uses buses.

When the infrastructure is there, please explain me why there is such a small number of trains. Just don't get it...
(Julian, 16 June 2009 13:40)

There is shortage of locomotives everywhere. In Albania besides the route you described the situation is a catastrophe. Without donated / sold used equipment from Sweden there wouldn't be any trains running around Zajecar, also BiH and Kosovo.

In early 80-s you could travel from BP to Sofia during the day - no chance at this moment. Last year there were numerous fire incidents in Bulgaria and a famous archeologist died as his sleeper burned out. At least, THAT was spared in ex-YU+AL.

Despite all this, the railways on Balkans are not the biggest offenders. The situation in Italy is relatively worse. I say "relatively" because we cannot expect same level in Albania than in Italy, given one is much poorer. But adjusting to the expectations, Italy is worse. At least try to travel with "Eurostar" train and watch your breath as air conditioner dies and you can't open the window.

Also - at least - there is *** some *** cross-border cooperation. But the cross-border cooperation between Italy and Slovenia is WORSE than between Serbia Proper and Kosovo. In one case there are 3-4 trains daily running in scenic Ibar valley, in other case there is now a SINGLE train, in the middle of night and with obligatory reservation costing a fortune - just making sure, no one would travel between Ljubljana and Venice.

In that light the news sounds pretty funny to me... I suspect the politicians of CG, Serbia, Italy who sit in their comfortable chairs travel in limo or private airplane, not in the "freedom" train or the EN-240. And after the peaceful "separation" the BG-Bar ticket did not became cheaper :(

Nice to see a try tough, but they need to do a bit more in order to get from me somewhat else than a sarcastic laugh.

And as I did mention, we were promised a direct link to Albania. Yes, the rails are there, from Podgorica to Shkodra. But the promised direct link is no more reality than the tunnel under Bering Straits.

But the taxi drivers in Shkodra and PG are very-very happy.

All in one, I would fire all transport ministers in the area, beginning with Russia, ending with Italy. Collect them all, send to Siberia to do some better work. ;)

There is a LOT of talk of a Adriatic-Ionian highway as well. That would mean that Europeans start in Slovenia and end up in Greece never further than 1 mile or so from the coast. This would definitely get support from EU population but imagine the mess of confiscating valuable land for 1500 miles of highway. The southern Albanian section is a nightmare, all mountains!

Good luck making it happen though: Croatia is already overloaded with road loans, Crna Gora can't afford a donkey cart road and Albania needs to finish the Fyrom highway.


MikeC, who is financing Serbia? EU, not Russia. Montengro can't afford jack, they're 600,000 people and deeply in trouble as it is. Cigarette smuggling isn't as profitable and their Albanian beach land (Ulqin, Tivar etc) has already been leased for 99 years. Serbia can borrow, but MN can't pay it back

Milan your anti state stance on the railways does not bear out in European practice.

The best European railways are not those that have been privatised such as British Railways / Railtrack. No, the best railways are to be found in places like France, where state ownership was the order of the day.

This anglo saxon (or American) insistence that the market is the answer to everything is simply wrong.

About time... Apart from this, using the train in the Balkans in general is horrible. Main reason: there are no trains. The number of trains leaving and arriving in Belgrade for instance is amazingly small for a city of that size and it is still a mystery to me why. Don't know precisely, but when I was traveling I had the idea there wasn't a single hourly connection, even to major city's. In Albania, the trains look horrible (was part of the fun though, for someone from a wannabe perfect country), but they seem to run more frequent than in Serbia and in Macedonia. The connection between Tirana and Durres is actually quite good. Was in Zajecar some 3 years ago and (correct me if i'm wrong) there was just one train a day to Belgrade, at like 3 o'clock in the middle of the night... But even to get to Subotica is difficult, especially when you want to continue to Szeged in Hungary. When the infrastructure is there, please explain me why there is such a small number of trains. Just don't get it...

Thanks Ataman, that explains a lot. But it brings another question... In all of the Balkans buses and trams from all over the world can be seen in the streets (and I hope they never replace them). Something similar should have been possible for the railways.

About the line between Podgorica and Shkodër, that one is amazing. I read about for the first time maybe 5 or 6 years ago. The planned opening for passengers whas 'next year'. Yeah right...

Hi Julian

I think you will find that most people use a bus or a coach journey. There is a very busy coach station just in back of the rail station where most popular services are frequent.

Hi Julian

I think you will find that most people use a bus or a coach journey. There is a very busy coach station just in back of the rail station where most popular services are frequent.
(MS, 16 June 2009 16:45)

It also seems, these busses are immune to political conflict. I did see regular busses from Pristina traveling to/from Vienna in Hungary. They looked pretty modern, no objections. If we look at the map, it is obvious they had to go via Serbia Proper.

Try that with railway... no way. All the companies are broke, one way or the other.

But at least the tickets are cheap by "Western" standards, even in Italy. Just make sure you don't buy any ticket overseas, that is including all railway passes a rip-off.

Get them at the station locally, going through KiM is as far as I remember 2 Euro, going through entire Serbia is relatively not much more. The biggest problem is that the lines don't really go where you want, so with usual mandatory places (Sinan Pasha in Prizren - Dechani - Grachanica - Novi Pazar - Studenica - Morava valley - Milesheva - etc.) the trains are just impossible given the odd schedule.

Driving is not that bad, provided one is careful enough and is not in hurry. Otherwise it can be expensive (speeding tickets) and even deadly. 10-15 Euro/person will mean an OK accommodation and buying in grocery stores won't save that much money compared with local little grill restaurants.

Despite the bad name the cops in Serbia and K-Albanian territory are okay, they don't "mooch" the foreigners for bribe as Bulgarians and Ukrainians do.

All that done with US plates, nothing unexpected - in the fact, everyone did think I am Serb (or Albanian) returning home. Driving at Saturday night is not very good idea in KiM because teenagers walk home in the middle of the road from disco and they don't have lights on ;)

I wasn't afraid to pick up some people here and there and give them a lift - once I took somebody across the admin. line, it was obvious he is local and the guards knew him.

last summer we went to greece (14 hour bus ride - 2 borders) and to crna gora ("10 hour" train ride - 1 border) - besides the bus being more clean & comfortable the train broke down (for 2+ hours) at 3am right before Bijelo Polje - but hey, at least we got to drink lav/jelen/loza with the conductors/engineers while we waited for the new locomotive.

Slovenia is a problem it dose not want to make easy connections to Italy or Croatia. Croatia has been asking Slovenia to improve its roads to Istria and Dalmatia on their side for years. All they say some day but the real reason is they are not happy with tourist not stopping in Slovenia and spending their money in Slovenia. They figure if the connections are bad and the roads to the Italian also to the Croatian border are in a bad state and narrow with traffic jams. That tourist will be spending their money and time in Slovenia instead of just of whizzing by Slovenia that is good neighborly relations from the Slovenians. I think it reflects more badly on the Slovenians and their petty jealousy toward their neighbors. They cant stand their neighbors succeeding mostly their old southern neighbors they try every thing to undermine them very pathetic.

yeah, those buses. Do I know about them! Driving for hours, enjoying the views, turbofolk (or real folk when you're lucky) in the background, then a cigarette-break and then some hours more turbofolk and maybe a little sleep, to wake up again in another world...

Thanks for the reactions!

This anglo saxon (or American) insistence that the market is the answer to everything is simply wrong.
(bganon, 16 June 2009 20:20)

I did not wanted to go in that topic, but in human history there is not a single transport agency which made money long-term. Therefore the answer is obvious. With privatization we see many things going from "kind of OK" to "really evil".

It's worth to compare Russian (in the process of semi-privatization) and Chinese (100% state), French (100% state) versus UK (private) cases. Always the "100% state" is the winner. Now with ex-YU, Albania, Hungary, Ukraine, Italy the problem is with the quality of the government, lack of money, lack of professionalism, corruption and everything else we are complaining. USA is a very interesting case because while Amtrak is a "private" corporation, the owner of it is the Congress - so we can regard it as 100% Federal. As such it is a monumental failure and compared with it the usual offenders (ex-YU, Albania, Hungary, etc) look like a success cases. To blame are certain idiotic regulations, protectionism, lack of vision and "pork" (i.e. lobby cases).

We used Amtrak countless times for long-distance - let put it this way, I fully understand people using airplanes and cars, they (Amtrak) is a nut case, only crazy people (like us) would use them, definitly not for normal consumer - blame the politics. Some say, Americans never could run trains properly. I can say, from all services I did experience: given it's potential Amtrak is the poorest and least honest.