K. Albanians: Make Prizren "capital city"

Of course, only Stefan Dušan and Serbian Church comes to the mind of B92.

Hundreds of Albanian and other monuments in Prizren do not even exist, do they, B92 ?

" Prizren was the seat of Serbian Tsar Stefan Dušan's court in the 14th century, during the era of the medieval Serbian empire, and is home to medieval Serbian Orthodox shrines "

That is not why Albanian legislators are asking to make Prizren a capital city by June 10, 2016, but because of the League of Prizren held there in June 10, 1878, that marked a crucial turning point in Albanian history.

Dear hmmm,


We mentioned what is commonly considered to be the most relevant background information about the town's history, for the benefit of our international reader who is not closely acquainted with the region.

We did not attempt to provide a list of all historical and other monuments there. However, should any of our readers wish to do so in their comments, we will welcome their effort and contribution.

At the same time, unfortunately, preserved and undisturbed historical monuments are not as "newsworthy" as those that have been damaged.


Regards,

B92

albanians copying what Serbians had done from the 14th century. How original? NOT. Let me guess, Czar Dushan was an albanian and his pet with the Mammoth Elephant named Demi?

Obviously it's an attempt to further cleanse Serbia's Kosovo of its historical past in order to construct a mono ethnic state of Albania. With our Czars and Church's history, I'm guessing they want to move this illegal government closer to the eradication process, a more hands on approach.

Well the next step must be Serbs moving to Pristina...

@hmmm. Such things are incomparable. Albanians came to Kosovo with NO signs of culture heritage. In the 11th century they were mentioned just as mercenaries. And Albanian alphabet was invented by the Austrian ambassador late in the 19th century as one of the reasons for Albanian statehood.

"one thing is for sure: when you are in b92 land, you never forget where you are...
never."

Come now, roberto, you know as well as I that Albanians are just as insensitive to other people's histories and legacies. Attempts at whitewashing any historical presence or contributions of Serbs in Kosovo has become an almost professional job by Kosovo's so-called Ministry of Tourism. So spare us the indignance of historical revisionism.

Plus, your apparent distaste for this website doesn't seem to keep you away, nor refrain for engaging in selective memory of your own.

Let's not get silly here.

Yes , it is true that Serbs have history in Kosovo .

Yes , it is also true that Albanians have history in Kosovo.

The question should be asked ,
Where did these two peoples originally come from and when did they arrive to the Balkans (Kosovo) ???
I can confidently tell you that the Serbs immigrated to the Balkans from Carpathian mountains region (Southern Russia) in the 6 and 7 century A.D.

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !

On to the present time , and we are talking about Kosovo -
The population of Kosovo is almost 95% Albanian .

So the next question I have is why are the Serbs so bothered by Kosovo's independence ?

I mean serbs deffinitely comprise a very small population in Kosovo to begin with regardless of what they say happened in the past !

I beleive the Serbs need to understand that the Albanians were in the Balkans for more then 1500 years B.C. - & Albanians have been there when the Serbs first arrived and will always be there !

Albanians and Serbs have to learn to live with one another regardless of what they think history was or should be !

If we don't learn the easy way then we will have no choice but to learn the hard way !

I think that we are both smarter then that

Well, I would assume that thoughts over moving the capital to Prizren had more to do with the League of Prizren, than Tsar Dusan's capital.

But if I may, leave the capital in Pristina. Prizren's too nice of a city to have it choked with bureaucratic buildings. Prizren's pricturesque. Leave it that way.

Because this project K-Serbs were expelled from Prizren and serbian medieval monuments was destroyed (like Bogorodica Ljeviška and Manastir Svetih Arhangela)?
Before war in Prizren lived nearly 10 thousand Serbs and today?? Maybe one hundred maybe two... (1-2% of pre-war population)

P.S. Prizren was one of important places for Serbs not only in 14th century, but also in the time of Constantine Bodin in 11th century when Prizren was his capital and from 12th century, when Stefan Nemanja conquered city. It was important site of bulgarian (from 9th century) and serbian Orthodox Church. Prizren was important for Albanian history only from 19th century, when Albanians come in big number to Kosovo...
Ps. 2 Albanians haven't their own name for Prizren - they use serbian name. It's very good sign, that for Albanians Prizren wasn't important place in the past.

Will be very funny when albanian pseudo-government will installed in the city with serbian name and full of serbian medieval monuments :D

I am all for it. Prizren is beautiful and is full of historic meaning. It is a shame the Prizren League was burned by the Serbs during 1999.

“At the same time, unfortunately, preserved and undisturbed historical monuments are not as "newsworthy" as those that have been damaged.”
This line could continue a bit longer, saying something like:…as those that have been damaged and which are being repaired. Something similar.

"Ps. 2 Albanians haven't their own name for Prizren - they use serbian name. It's very good sign, that for Albanians Prizren wasn't important place in the past."

What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING! Prizren comes from Petrizên and it has been like that since Roman times. Hmmmm...where were the Serbs in Roman times?

Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.

"History is Funny"

You ask...

"What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING!"

The answer from the Wiki article on Prizren is:-

"Its name comes from old Serbian Призрѣнь[2], from при-зрѣти, indicating fortress which could be seen from afar[3] (compare with Czech Pøízøenice)."

Albanian "History" is indeed funny... the more you dig, the more obvious it is that Kosovo is Serbian.

I'm wondering if the Albanians might not be quietly preparing to partition Kosovo... looking at a map, Prizren it tucked away in one corner, close to the Albanian border, a sign that they are looking for a more defensible position when Serbia undoes the NATO agression?

Who knows?

Hang in there Serbia...

What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING! Prizren comes from Petrizên and it has been like that since Roman times. Hmmmm...where were the Serbs in Roman times?

Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.
(History is Funny, 13 June 2009 23:45)

Prizren - from serbian "prizoriti" (to dawn), hence serb. "prozor" (window), "prizor" (sight).
Name compare with czech compare with Czech "Pøízøenice" (part of city of Brno)

And You please tell me what mean "Prizren" in Albanian ;)

Bulgarians take city in 9th century. It was slavic city where lived also Serbs. From 1019 (first time noted) Prizren was siting of Orthodox Dioecese of Prizren.
Prizren was centre of antibyzantine Serb-Bulgarian uprising in 1072 led by serb Konstantin Bodin and bulgarian Georgi Voiteh. And than - Prizren was site of Sebrian dioecese of Prizren.

Any documents from medieval about Albanians... Only Slavs - Bulgarians, Serbs...

I know - it's very hard to you... Any evidence of "Albanian heritage" in kosovo...

Albanians came to Kosovo in the 19th century?

One of the greatest Albanian heroes of all time was born in Kosova or what about the Kosovar Albanians that fought with Serbs in the Battle of Kosova.
(erjon, 14 June 2009 13:08)
Mayby Lekë Dukagjini was born on Kosovo territory, but according to Vatican documents - near Pukë in Albania...

K-Albanians in Battle of Kosovo?? - maybe few number was in the force of Prince of Kosovo Vuk Branković. But how many?? TURKISH cadastral census of Branković land from 1455:
"13000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling"

So - on the Branković lands (consisted most of Kosovo territoty) - lived very, very small number of Albanians. But mayby You think, that Turkish 15th century census is prepared by Milosević propaganda?? ;)

P.S. I don't wrote that on territory of Kosovo in medieval time wasn't any Albanians - they lived here, but in the small number. In big number they come here hundreds years later (e.g. after expulsion of Serbs in 1690 - 37000 Serb families (60-70000 peoples) leave Kosovo incl. 20000 Serbs from Prizren only (2 x more than number of Serbs lived in Prizren in 1999!!). In 18th century next thousands Serbs leave Kosovo becouse turkish oppresion. Somebody comes on this territory after Serbs leaved Kosovo... These peoples was Albanians. And by the end of the 19th century, Albanians replaced the Serbs as the dominating nation of Kosovo.

Little Russia

We came as mercenaries and now we have two countries and the third one in the works, so I'd think we are doing pretty damn good.

@Bekim

These "three" could easiliy turn into zero when Americans leave,and boy they are beginning .
As for Macedonia,I like this particular because the Macedonians are lower in number and strength than Albanians which would force them to give up their "Macedonian" nationality and confess their Southern Serb heritage.
Don`t let you fool yourself,the geopolitical situation after this economic crisis will change dramatically and only in Serbia`s favour...

Mike, there is no evidence that albanians have been there 2000 years bc. Illyrians - maybe, but they were even in croatia and bosnia. That point does not hold. The origins of albanians are unknown.

Well the next step must be Serbs moving to Pristina...

@hmmm. Such things are incomparable. Albanians came to Kosovo with NO signs of culture heritage. In the 11th century they were mentioned just as mercenaries. And Albanian alphabet was invented by the Austrian ambassador late in the 19th century as one of the reasons for Albanian statehood.
(Little Russia, 13 June 2009 19:40)

May I ask you who gave you that info?what next,Albanians came from space?
God may look over as given with what people We Albanians have to deal with.

>> Of course, only Stefan Dušan and Serbian Church comes to the mind of B92.

Hundreds of Albanian and other monuments in Prizren do not even exist, do they, B92 ?>>

one thing is for sure: when you are in b92 land, you never forget where you are...
never.

roberto
frisco

I don’t think I’d have any objections to moving it to Prizen, except maybe for Mike’s comments, that would certainly be a consideration.

“Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.
(History is Funny, 13 June 2009 23:45)”

The Jebusites would probably beg to differ on that (Yasir Arafat claimed that Palestinians are the descendants of the Jebusites). Suffice to say, the city of Jerusalem has been populated since at least 4,000 BC. It’s well documented in many sources from the time. The Bible talks about it a lot too. I’m sure you’ve heard of King David?

Jerusalem has been occupied by many peoples before and after the Jews. The Jews also lived in a lot of areas besides Israel over their long history. However, that is where the Jewish identity and culture developed and that is why it’s their spiritual homeland. I see a lot of similarities actually. Maybe you might want to read up on some history and maybe throw in a little political science.

Roberto, you’ve got to be kidding? In one post you praise Optor as if they’d support your every opinion, and in this one accuse B92 of nationalist propaganda? Maybe you’d think the Optor types are all nationalists too if you spent any time in Belgrade. Those B92 folks went through some pretty tough times under Milosevic too dude, they aren't nationalists by any stretch.

No sense of culture is exhibited by those ethnocentric individuals who claim that a people have no culture.

Albanians came to Kosovo in the 19th century?

One of the greatest Albanian heroes of all time Lekë Dukagjini was born in Kosova or what about the Kosovar Albanians that fought with Serbs in the Battle of Kosova.

kosovo has albanian history,it should belong to albania,
kosovo has bulgarian history it should belong to bulgaria,
kosovo has serbian history ,it should belong to serbia,
kosovo has turkish history,it should belong to turkey etc etc
so will say nationalist,narrow minded people...
kosovo belongs to the people that live in kosovo,and prizren has during centuries been a symbol of multiculturealcohabitation.
as long as we see the problem as my place your place,we will have troubles and only exacerb nationalism.Is it so difficult to say our common place with albanian,bulgarian,serbian,turkish,rom memorie?We as albanian have fight against turkish empire,but we have today good relation with turkey....

Little Russia!

Albanians came from Caucasus? when exactly? on what do you base your information?

Caucasian Albania was located in the eastern area of the Caucasus between the Caspian sea and the tips of the mountain ranges. Foreigners called it Albania, when local people called it Shkiperiya.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/albanian_toponyms.html
Nowadays this territory is partially located in Azerbajdgan, partially in Russia. In the 8th century Arabs converted that population in Islam and used them as mercenaries in their wars. When arabs defeated Byzantines and invaded southern part of Italy, they brought Albanians there to increase Muslim influence(when Byzantines conquered this territory back, they converted some Albanians back to Christianity). In the 11th century Byzantine attacked Serbia, but was defeated. This defeat was used by Byzantine commander George Manjac and he decided to revolt against Byzantine and took with him Albanians. But he was defeated near Doyransk lake and his army surrendered. Byzantine accepted them, but not the foreigners - Albanians. Those Albanians had nowhere to go, so they asked Serbs to let them stay in the Mountains near Raban and to earn thir living by cattle-breeding for themselves and for Serbs, the latter agreed with that (cattle-breeding was Albanian main occupation during the whole period of the Middle ages). But in significant quantities Albanians came later.

Mike Z Said-

"I can confidently tell you that the Serbs immigrated to the Balkans from Carpathian mountains region (Southern Russia) in the 6 and 7 century A.D.

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !"

One question- Did Marty McFly and Doc Brown let you borrow their Dolerean!

1) The root of the Russian word for "sight" (зрение) is the same as in "Призрен". This is not even up to debate.

Countless words like "прозреть", "обозреть", etc. all are having the same root and related. It's ridiculous even to debate it.

2) Language used in early medieval Albanian Kingdom in Caucasus has nothing to do with a certain heavily "romanized" and "slavonized" thracian language used today on Western Balkans. The former is language of Lezghs, so if anyone knows the dance called "Лезгинка" - that's it.

http://tinyurl.com/mc5lly

As for "Balkan-Albanian" - most linguists lean towards Thracian, maybe Dacian origin of the said population, less towards Celtic or Illyrian - but there is probably a great mix of everything. From our point of view it does not matter much, what element from the four (Dacian, Thracian, Celtic, Illyrian) is more dominant and it probably will shift as more details will be unearthed. Fact is, that language is an autochon language with very heavy Slavonic and Latin influence.

Caucasus said to have more to do with other local groups, but that, too is "alternative science" and we have to be careful.

Sorry to disappoint everyone. "Lezginka" is not a Shqip dance and Shqip language has more Celtic and Thracian traces than Illyrian ones. To bad for "Caucasian" theory - Thracians and Celts were in the area since few thousand years, Illyrians were their neighbors and related.

But "Prizren" is not Thracian, Celtic, Illyrian or Dacian word, it's Slavonic. Why is that - up for debate, but not the origin of the word.

Nowadays this territory is partially located in Azerbajdgan, partially in Russia. In the 8th century Arabs converted that population in Islam and used them as mercenaries in their wars.
(Little Russia, 14 June 2009 21:54)

Do you know anyone in Azerbaijan who speaks Albanian Little Russia?
Do you know if they have the same traditional costumes as the Albanias?
Do you know if they have the same song or same dances?
For you information we can trace our costumes and traditional songs back thousands of years. So far no similarities have been found with Azerbaijan or any other country in the world.
Last but not least, if you still think i'm part of Albanian propaganda let's match the DNA beetwen the people of Albania and Azerbajan and see who has more similarities Albanians or the Serbs!
I find it very strange that the only people who claims Albanians are not indigenous people in Balkans are the Serbs and in few cases the Greeks.
Wonder why??

@arti
Albanians came from the Caucasus. Look at this French map, made in 1914. Albanian population is painted in orange. Muslimized Serbs, speaking Albanian are painted in grey.

http://www.srpska.ru/article.php?nid=10542

hmmm

Well, it is a Serbian newspaper, so naturally they will talk first and foremost about anything Serbian. Do you see Albanian newspapers talking about anything Serbian first and foremost?

roberto

Might I suggest you go find an Albanian newspaper that does not quite bother you so much as a Serbian one? After all, I noticed (and I am sure I am not alone here) that the only things coming out of you here are anti-Serbian. Why is that?

prizren name in the past was theranda but turks change it into pyrzerin after that to perzeren and finally prizren.
(united states of albania, 15 June 2009 13:16)

Are You sure?? So where was Turks, when in 1019 Prizren was noted as "Prizdrijana" (Призрѣнь)??

Byzantine texts are not included in albanian historical books?? ;)

"I don't wonder. Except for such famous nations as Romas, Greeks etc., most small nations are usually being examined more by their neighbouring nations. Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists"

How exactly did you come to this conclusion?
Please ilumenate me with Serbian experience in scientific researches!!!
I rather stick with the western scientific researche since their work is proven ang highly respectful.
Romans were not a nation but EMPIRE!
Ancient Greece was not a nation but made of cities and town in war to the death with each other.
Please tell me which country in Europe or in the world "examines" their neighbours and dinies their right of existence?

"As for costumes etc. I haven't explored this particular point, but I can guess that Albanian traditions could be "swallowed" by the neighbouring cultures"

You should know before you make any claims that when you "examine" a country there are two things you should look out first.
1) Language
2) Custums
These two are the "DNA" of any nation, culture or civilisations.
I don't know any Sllavic or Greek song,literature,costume or any other traditional rhymes used by the Albanians. If you know or have any evidence to prove differently please bring them forwards.

"But nobody has given me ANY evidence that Albanians didn't came as mercenaries in the 11th century. We can argue about from where they had come (though I believe in Caucasian theory and follow its development), but not whether Albanians autochonous or not."

Well, if you were to visit Albania you will see plenty of evidence. From our monasties and churches to the great old cities of Butrint,Amantia,Apollonia (South of albania) Dyrrah (Central Albania) Lisus and Skutari (today Lezha and Shkoder north of Albania).
If you find any nation in Caucasian with these attributes please let B92 know!

albanians are direct decendants of illyrians and croats accept this.
one day in tv historians of the world in albania accept that albanians are illyrians.

as for arnautes,it comes from argonautes>argnautes>arnautes.
albanians were also known as the people of the sea and had a long story of skilled navigators

Situating the capital closer albania proper does make some sense, from an Albanian point of view. My concern though is the infrastructure... road, airport etc... I think that the investment to upgrade prizren to be the capital is not worth all the money to make that so. Pristina is clearly the center. While There some logic to do this for Prizren, it most certainly is not the right time to do so. Maybe in 10 or 20 years if Kosovo stabilizes a little. For the time being there simply is not the money to make this work. Now, maybe it could work... for example, in Illinois the main city is Chicago, and the capital, called Springfield, is quite a bit away and is very small. However, in Europe the capital is usually the no.1 city, so it would not make sense to do this, in my opinion.

"Maybe that's precisely behind the Thracian-Illyrian controversy? "

Ataman - I don't wrote about Thraco-Illyrians from 2000 years ago. They don't existed on the most of old Thracia/Illyria territory in 6th-7th century, when Slavs comes. They was romanized, hellenized and partially displaced/murdered in the times oh Gothic invasions in 3rd-5th century (like Ulpiana in Kosovo destroyed in 471 A.D. by Goths).

I wrote about Albanian heritage. Between thraco-illyrian heritage from ancient times and modern albanian heritage on Kosovo territory is 1200-1500 years hole. Or maybe more, because oldest islamic heritage on Kosovo territory is mostly Turkish.

The Turkish name for the Albanians "Arnauti", means "those who have not returned" and they were aware of the origins of the Albanians, who did not return, but stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. All this may explain the difference in language.
Little Russia


Arnaut is the Turkish word for the people of Albania. Arnauts in modern Turkey are people of Albanian descent. Historically in the Ottoman Empire, the word often referred to mercenary soldiers from Albania or from the the surrounding mountainous region.
As you may know Little Russia Turkish empire was vast and part of it were many regions. However, they only called the Albanians "Arnaut" which it had another meaning for the Turkish soldiers "unrules peoples" from the montains.
Why don't you ask a expert in Turkish language from the Ankara University? ;)

Caucasian origin for albanians? No,but albanian origin possible:alexandre of macedoine did had soldiers from albanian tribes and it is said that some of his soldier stopped in a place near afghanistan(and possibly azaerbaidjan) the Hunza,long noses,are from balkans...
Hittites did have contacts with balkan tribes and our double headed eagles come from there.
as for prizren,it comes from albanian words that means near drini,the local river.

The reason why Prizren would be a logical solution for the capital of Kosova is that it is has historical importance for all ethnic groups in Kosova, from Albanians, Serbs, and Turks to Roma and Slav-speaking Muslims Torbeshi and Gorani. It's the birthplace of Albanian statehood, a distinctly Ottoman city AND the ancient seat of Tzar Dushan's empire, all at once. So, where is the problem?
History is in the PAST, by definition. It will influence our future, but should not dictate it.

Ataman, I haven't read not a single argument against the Caucasian theory. You claim that Albanians are autochonous in the Balkans, but you can't explain why many names of vital geographic objects are not in Abanian and were adopted by Albanian language from the other.

(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 10:19)


The biggest argument is their language. Lezg and Shqip are like fire and water, completely of a different nature.

I have nothing against Lezgs on Balkans - but these newcomer Lezgs did adopt a "Shqip" language somehow. Like Volga-Bulgars adopted a Slavonic and to some theories, Subarteans adopted a Slavonic after moving to Bautzen.

The problem, both later two do mean: there was a large Slav population where agglutinative-speaking minority (Bulgars, Subarteans) moved. If that's the case with Lezgs - fine. But than, it means there have to be a large Shqip population because the alleged newcomers "somehow" pulled a completely different language out of blue sky after the move. So while the Albanian-Albanian connection sounds tempting, it does not resolve what it wants to prove, just to contrary: there was a large Shqip-speaking majority to absorb Lezgs.

Therefore - unfortunately - the "Caucasian" theory does prove the opposite what the goal is. The reason, again, is the language being so different.

The problem with lack of Albanian (I mean, Shqip) names can be solved completely differently: while they are not newcomers to Balkans, the Shqip-speaking people are newcomers to the area. The "original" Illyrians, Thracians, etc. were completely "slavized" after Hunnic and Slavic invasion. In 6th Century the entire Pelloponesos was Slavonic-speaking. All this is reflected in names of local cities. As Serbs came, they did find only Slavonic people in the area and used of course same names. Shqips ( = brigands from the mountains) re-gained the long lost areas after series of plagues and other disasters in 15th-17th centuries.

From certain point of view, the area indeed was Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian, but there is a gap over 1000 years. Comparison: the people along Moskva-river were agglutinative-speaking till Iuri, the Long-Hand did not came to the area. Now imagine I would say: "Moscow is Hungarian", that's rubbish. Prizren was Slavonic for 1000 years, till people SOMEWHAT RELATED to earlier population came and claimed the entire area. That's precisely as rubbish as "Hungarian Moscow". But pseudo-theories like Albanians being from Urartu / Dagestan / Lezgistan not just do not help establish the truth, they actually UNDERMINE it and help the enemy. Applying them we would "prove" there was a large neo-Thracian speaking population in the area - and it wasn't.

If I would be "neo-Thracian"/Shqip/whatever I would be very happy to claim some Lezgian heritage for two reasons:

1) It proves a large Thracian/Illyrian autochonous population because of language change
2) It establishes (упаси боже!!!) a Lezg-Chechen-Dag-Shqip (modern Albanian) "brotherhood". No, thanks!

OK to most of comments the city has been settled by Illyrians since ancient times in the 2 century AD was mentioned by romans as THeranda in Ptolemy's Geography in 5 century Petrizen,from 830 till 1013 the city was included in the bullgarian empire under Tsar Samuel after a war against Byzantine empire serbian Duke stefan Nemanja conquered prizren in 1189 and after defeat he give the city back to byzantine and the city was taken by bullgarina empire in 1204 and was seized in in 1208 by serbian Grand prince stefan II Nemanjic and word as Prizren comes from serbian language PRI-ZRCHTI indicating fortress which could seen from afair.. Original name of that prizren valley was THERANDA

Mike Z wrote,

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !

Please provide us with some.

Then he said,

The population of Kosovo is almost 95% Albanian .

So the next question I have is why are the Serbs so bothered by Kosovo's independence ?

I mean serbs definitely comprise a very small population in Kosovo to begin with regardless of what they say happened in the past !

Oh, but it matters very much what happened in the past. Why do we have 95% Albanian population in Kosovo when just after WW2 it was about even and before than more Serb.

Ethnic cleansing is not to be rewarded. How did you achieve 95% in such a short time?

I see arguments here about the name of Prizren. No Prizren came from russian language, no Prizren came from Check. The old name of Prizren was "THERANDA" if you guys wanna know.

@Ataman
"But they were in the area all the time in form of a small, tight society of mountain people. They moved down in the valleys as the local population died due plague or disappeared due exodus."

Interesting, how have learned it? There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?

Also I don't understand why do you consider "Shqip" to be something intrinsic to the Balkans. "Shqip-tari" is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" -"Ship-TAR".

Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists. ----
little russia

Yes the serbian historians are very 'famous'. But you know we prefer to listen to french,german english or american historians and scientists they are way better than yours. So with all due respect to your scientist i don't think that they have enough capability and freedom to do correct and sincere research. Anyway we Albanians know what we are and do not need serbian researchers to tell us what we are, you better focus your research on your own identity that is not that clear either.So please stop insulting us albanians with your pseudo-scientific-theory.

Milan,

"Theranda - Roman, latin name, Prizren - slavic orgin name. So - is no Albanian name for Prizren ;)"

-If you were scholarly minded you would provide evidence and not just say things that fit your interests.

"Romans were latin speaking peoples who identified with roman culture."

-With this you suggest that the whole world that was under Roman rule spoke Latin. There is no doubt that Latin was the language of the ruling people, of the elites and science and literature on that time. But there is no evidence that Latin was spoken in all the Roman occupied territories. Otherwise we would have Latin be a used language in most of the world today and not a Latin as a dead language.

"On Roman Empire area proceeded intensive process of "romanization". This process proceeded on the territory of Illyrian tribes too. After few hundred years of romanization most of Illyrians lost their national identify - they were latin speaking Romans with high influence of roman culture."

-There is no doubt that the whole world is Roman influenced, especially the western world. Illyrians like any other people who were under the Roman rule used Latin, elites, but there is no evidence that normal people have used it. Again, if people had used, Albanian wouldn't be a language, wouldn't exist at all today. To just let you know, if you would read rather create theories of your own would learn how much influence the Romans actually had from Illyrians, with several rulers from Illyrian origin and adoption of what was best of them.

"Before Roman Empire - here were nothing special ;)"

- Here are some special things that you either know and avoid, or haven't heard of because you haven't studied it enought: The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. Illyria was increasing in power and economics and became a rival of Ancient Macedonia and Carthegia.

Another evidence that you should know is that Illyrians became Christian in the 1st century A.D. while Slavs only became Christians in the 9th century. If you are not tired, you can find this in the New Testament, Bible.

There's no need to smile, facts are facts and opinions are opinions. Some remain true not only to their virtue of honesty, but also others, while some others don't for either theirs or others.

cheers,

Appien, Illyrique, II: "it is said that the country,s name is due to Illyrios,son of Polyphème the Cyclope and Galatée They had 3 sons:celtos, Illyrios and Galas who went to sicily and give birth to the celts,the galates and the illyriansetc etc etc .So we are cousins....

Appien, Illyrique, II: "it is said that the country,s name is due to Illyrios,son of Polyphème the Cyclope and Galatée They had 3 sons:celtos, Illyrios and Galas who went to sicily and give birth to the celts,the galates and the illyriansetc etc etc .So we are cousins....
(lili, 15 June 2009 00:24)

Precisely, but they left the Thracians out. AFAIK, Galatians were Celts tough. It's what I am saying: Dacians, Illyrians, Thracians, Celts are at the origin of today's Shqips. Which one precisely is hard to tell, I wonder why Illyrians were "picked" - according the language style it's more Thracian(?).

It does not matter, it is an Indo-Iranian language with "only" few thousand year roots in Balkan peninsula, not an agglutinative, even more archaic Lezghian with completely "alien" logic for Indo-Iranians.

Shqip-Albanians are much closer to Russians than to Lezghs (= Caucasian Albanians) or to Fins or to Hungarians!

To B92

Isn't the Monument of League of Prizren damaged twice?

I wrote about Albanian heritage. Between thraco-illyrian heritage from ancient times and modern albanian heritage on Kosovo territory is 1200-1500 years hole. Or maybe more, because oldest islamic heritage on Kosovo territory is mostly Turkish.
(Milan, 15 June 2009 12:45)

In general in W. Balkans it is less than 1200 but more than 800 years. In particular regarding valleys of Kosovo the 1200 is probably correct. But they were in the area all the time in form of a small, tight society of mountain people. They moved down in the valleys as the local population died due plague or disappeared due exodus.

This is why as much as they would like, there is not a single "Albanian" building from early medieval Prizren. Or if yes, these "Albanians" did speak Slavonic: I can read what is written on the medieval frescoes.

Well, if you were to visit Albania you will see plenty of evidence. From our monasties and churches to the great old cities of Butrint,Amantia,Apollonia (South of albania) Dyrrah (Central Albania) Lisus and Skutari (today Lezha and Shkoder north of Albania).
If you find any nation in Caucasian with these attributes please let B92 know!
(Ilir, 15 June 2009 20:44)

These "great cities", monasties and churches were build by Roman Empire ;) Before Roman Empire - here were nothing special ;)

Bit more about Lezgs and ORIGINAL Albanians.

If you follow the links, you will see, these languages are AGGLUTINATIVE, again AGGLUTINATIVE languages, like of Urartu, Subartu, Hurrian, Sumerian ones.

Now at the moment we say "Subartu" (their people are called "Sabir") and Sumers, immediately two popular - but largely disputed theories come in mind:

a) Sumer-Urartu-Subartu-Sabir-Megyer link
b) Sumer-Urartu-Subartu-Sabir-Sorb-Srb link.

Both have obviously to do with two OTHER ethnic element in the area (your guess!), NOT the Albanian-Shqip.

The first case is widely known (and disputed), according the second the Sabirs came to the Bautzen (now Eastern part of Germany) area and took the local Slavonic population with them to Balkan peninsula. That (not the Bautzen but the Sabirs) is disputed, too.

In any event, we can regard the agglutanive-speaking "original" Albanians as at least very far (maybe closer) relatives of Hungarians, in ABSOLUTELY NO CASE related to Indo-Iranian speaking "Shqip" population of Balkans.

The Indo-Iranian group versus agglutinative group is like fire and water, agglutinative languages sounding more archaic and completely "alien" - see the following sample.

1) "normal" way to say:

"Shqips have nothing to do with Lezghs". If you can "mirror-translate" that sentence into your native language, your language is "normal" ;)

2) "abnormal" way to say:

"Shqip-multiple-beings-belongs-to nothing common-having-ownership denying Lezgh-multiple-beings-towards" (shorter version: "Skiptároknak semmi közük sincs a lezgekhez")

Note, under 2) there is not a single verb, but it describes perfectly. Just a bit "transgalactic" way to say for Master Yoda ;) Now as far as I know, Lezghs (and thus Caucasian-Albanians) would say it like under 2), not under 1).

Therefore, please... no more "Caucasian Albania". Feel free to call Sq-Albanians to be "Dacians", "Illyrians", "Celts", "Thracians" - neither is 100% perfect (there could be several relationships), but not way off like calling them "Lezghs".

As for "Лезгинка" - according some it's never early to start to learn it ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvcGqVKGOWo

Roberto would probably surprised to see Jews dancing THAT with swords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpmvyjU-Znc

I know - it's very hard to you... Any evidence of "Albanian heritage" in kosovo...
(Milan, 14 June 2009 12:05)

Maybe that's precisely behind the Thracian-Illyrian controversy?

The Caucasian-Albanian theory is 100% bogus - but as some argue, the word set of modern Albanian is rather typical for environment where Thracians lived.

That explains things perfectly, also the lack of their traces in Kosovo, Prizren indeed has nothing to do with them till late medieval ages.

Ataman, I haven't read not a single argument against the Caucasian theory. You claim that Albanians are autochonous in the Balkans, but you can't explain why many names of vital geographic objects are not in Abanian and were adopted by Albanian language from the other.

"Prizren was the seat of Serbian Tsar Stefan Dušan's court in the 14th century, during the era of the medieval Serbian empire" B92


right so this makes it serbian now?

this is joke and i dont think it will become a caplital

"I find it very strange that the only people who claims Albanians are not indigenous people in Balkans are the Serbs and in few cases the Greeks.
Wonder why??"
(Ilir, 15 June 2009 17:15)

I don't wonder. Except for such famous nations as Romas, Greeks etc., most small nations are usually being examined more by their neighbouring nations. Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists.

As for costumes etc. I haven't explored this particular point, but I can guess that Albanian traditions could be "swallowed" by the neighbouring cultures.

But nobody has given me ANY evidence that Albanians didn't came as mercenaries in the 11th century. We can argue about from where they had come (though I believe in Caucasian theory and follow its development), but not whether Albanians autochonous or not.

I see arguments here about the name of Prizren. No Prizren came from russian language, no Prizren came from Check. The old name of Prizren was "THERANDA" if you guys wanna know.
(prizreni, 15 June 2009 15:53)

Theranda - Roman, latin name, Prizren - slavic orgin name. So - is no Albanian name for Prizren ;)

And Ilir - "Romans were not a nation but EMPIRE!"

Romans were latin speaking peoples who identified with roman culture. Other peoples (excl. Greeks) was described as "Barbarians". Roman Empire was state - where lived lot of nations, including latin speaking Romans. On Roman Empire area proceeded intensive process of "romanization". This process proceeded on the territory of Illyrian tribes too. After few hundred years of romanization most of Illyrians lost their national identify - they were latin speaking Romans with high influence of roman culture. Their descendants are probably Vlachs. So - if on the territory of province of Dardania lived before Slavs latin speaking peoples (Illyro-Romans, like family of emperor Justinian) connected with Roman culture - they were not Albanian ancestors.

For some of you who say that Albanians came in big numbers from Albania after the 19Th century, then where did Presevo Valley Albanians come from? As far as I know they are the eldest tribe that inhabited south Serbia, from Presevo all the way to Nis. . They are the only descendants of Constantin the Great. Prove it that Presevo Albanians were not there when Serbs moved in to the balkans in the 7th century, and then I will believe you that Kosovo Albanians came from Albania. If not, then read the History books written by others than Serbs and Albanians.

prizren name in the past was theranda but turks change it into pyrzerin after that to perzeren and finally prizren.

Ataman, there is no archaelogical neither documentary evidence that Albanians are autochonous in the area. You have voiced just assumptions and nothing more. Albanian language is a mixture of languages of the neighbouring lands what isn't typical to autochonous nations. Albanians didn't have literary works until the 19th century and even Turks used Serbian in their correspondence. Absence of signs of the culture heritage is more important than similarity in the manner of dancing.

As for Caucasus. Albania was known in the Caucasus before Turks came there and spread Turkish language. The Turkish name for the Albanians "Arnauti", means "those who have not returned" and they were aware of the origins of the Albanians, who did not return, but stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. All this may explain the difference in language.
And, second, Michael Ataliotos, a contemporary of Manjak, described the events connected with Manjak and Albanians, which I have mentioned above.

reading how history is being rewritten in the interest of various nationalist irredentist agendas would be very funny, but unfortunately people writing this nonsense are actually believing it which just leads to more nationalism and misunderstandings. so, to those saying that prizren is not a slavic word, you are wrong (btw, to those albanian nationalists who believe nonsense like this - don't you feel insulted that the name of your country/protectorate is named by serbian word or do you have some alternative explanation for the origin of word kosovo too?). and to those saying that albanians came from the caucasus - you are also wrong. and to those who are 100% sure that albanians are descendents of ancient illyrians - this is unlikely, thracian/dacian origin of albanians seems more likely at least as far as the language is concerned. as for the genetic material, you all share some common blood.

Interesting, how have learned it? There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

Yes, they are. Gold, silver ornaments, too. The language - an indo-iranian - is also the witness. Interestingly, different rulers had to maintain a legion in the area to prevent the mountaineers to devastate the valleys. Obviously the level of the development was lower up in the mountains than in the valleys and the lack of buildings speaks for that. Compare with Caucasus: Armenians, Georgians and Chechens live next to each other. Georgia and Armenia is full of ancient monuments over 1000 years old, Chechnya is full of ornament and pottery fragments, maybe one or two forts, but not much older than few hundred years.

---------------

Also I don't understand why do you consider "Shqip" to be something intrinsic to the Balkans. "Shqip-tari" is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" -"Ship-TAR".
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

1) They begun to call themself "Shqip" only relatively recently.
2) The language is a classic example of Indo-Iranian, like Russian, German, Latin is. It has very heavy Latin and Slav influence.
3) The "ar" ending does not mean automatically Ural-Altaian - and in your samples there are many pure coincidences. Only Khazar, Bulghar, Tatar seem to apply, maybe Avar.

And please use "Shqip", never forget the "q" in the middle - otherwise our opponents will feel very offended.

Ataman:
"More-less so. Both Vlachs (Romanians) and today Albanians trace their line back to the Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian tribes, later fully romanized. "

So - if Albanians were fully romanized - like Vlachs - So from where is their language? You negate yourself ;)

Their descendants are probably Vlachs. So - if on the territory of province of Dardania lived before Slavs latin speaking peoples (Illyro-Romans, like family of emperor Justinian) connected with Roman culture - they were not Albanian ancestors.
(Milan, 15 June 2009 22:27)

More-less so. Both Vlachs (Romanians) and today Albanians trace their line back to the Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian tribes, later fully romanized. They were indeed "barbarians" from Roman and Greek point of view and their "activity" (robbery on land, piracy on seas) was somehow under-appreciated. So the former pirates and robbers became accustomed to Roman luxury... and enjoyed much higher level of culture. Instead of pirating at sea they munched their lunch watching people being munched by lions in arena. A clear sign of progress.

That was very cool - till germanic and hunnic tribes did not came and "very politely" asked everyone to leave. As the result of this politeness, the Illyrians, Thracians and other ex-pirate-turned-Roman citizens decided to almost go the way of dinosaurs (= die out). Few who left did retreat to mountains and decided to join the club with Goths, Huns, Avars (just rob whom you can). Than Slavs came. Pretty peacefully. Not because they were so peaceful - but because most of local population left for "Ethernal Hunting Fields™". As everything almost settled, Magyars knocked politely on the door, sending few more locals to said "Ethernal Hunting Fields™". Things became later more peaceful. Croats even "voluntirely"(?) gave up their country and dynasty to us, so they were not exterminated fully (to your biggest disappointment in 21st century probably). While busy with Czechs and Germans and East Romans and Croats we forgot about Serbs and did not exterminate them fully (to biggest disappointment of Croats in 21st century probably). The remaining Thracians/Illyrians decided to stay high in the mountains (so we did not exterminate them to biggest disappointment of both Serbs and Croats in 21st century). As the peace really kicked in, Mongol-Tatars came in and expressed their polite opinion about everyone mentioned before and early retirement to enjoy a happy afterlife. And finally, Ottomans came to ensure, no one is left unhappy in the area.

Short cynic history of Europe, with a lot of fun and happiness, no one was left untouched. And I forgot about fun and excitement the Viking raids did bring. Mediterranian and Balkans were not enough, they went as "gastarbajteri" to America.

alproud

"If you were scholarly minded you would provide evidence and not just say things that fit your interests."

So where are evidence, that name of "Prizren" is albanian/illyrian. We can find very easy slavic origin of this name - so why it can't be true?

"-With this you suggest that the whole world that was under Roman rule spoke Latin. There is no doubt that Latin was the language of the ruling people, of the elites and science and literature on that time."

I don't suggest that all roman world speak latin language. In Roman Empire lived lot of nations - Greeks, Jews, Phoenicians, Celts, Illyrians, Thracians etc. But some of this nations were quickly romanized. Specially were romanized nations which culture was below to roman culture.

"But there is no evidence that Latin was spoken in all the Roman occupied territories. Otherwise we would have Latin be a used language in most of the world today and not a Latin as a dead language."

Ancient Latin language transformed after Roman Empire collapsed into Romance languages family - Italian, Spanish, Portugese, French, Romanian, language of Vlachs and others. Geography of this languages show where latin language were used. These languages were used in Illyria too (Romanian, Vlachs language, Dalmatian language, Istro-Romanian etc. - in old times used on much, much greater area of ancient Illyria/Dardania) So - if Dacia, conquered in 106 AD and abandoned in 271 was in about 170 years totally romanized (today Romanians), than why not Illyrians conquered at 165 BC (Illyricum) or 6 AD (Dardania) and until Slavs comes (6th-7th century) still roman /east roman province??

"-There is no doubt that the whole world is Roman influenced, especially the western world. Illyrians like any other people who were under the Roman rule used Latin, elites, but there is no evidence that normal people have used it."

Oh - there are evidence. Justinian's family were Illyro-Roman PEASANT family. But they spoken LATIN. Don't forget that some of 3rd century Roman Emperors were from Illyricum (e.g. Claudius II, Constantine the Great e.t.c.). They spoke latin and were part of roman culture. So - territory of Illyricum were highly romanized.

"Here are some special things that you either know and avoid, or haven't heard of because you haven't studied it enought: The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. Illyria was increasing in power and economics and became a rival of Ancient Macedonia and Carthegia."

Germanic tribes on the territory of today Germany had too their own kingdoms. They had power. They can defeat Romans - like Arminius in Teutoburg Forest. But they build nothing special - earthen walls, palisades, wooden houses... Same Celt kingdoms on Britain...
And what monumental buildings were build by Illyrians before Roman Empire??

"Another evidence that you should know is that Illyrians became Christian in the 1st century A.D. while Slavs only became Christians in the 9th century. If you are not tired, you can find this in the New Testament, Bible."

Christianity was created on the middle of 1st century. And primary was small sect - presented mainly in the big cities like Rome, Ephesus, Alexandria. So - I don't belive that Illyrians was christianised in 1st century.

Slavs were christianized in 9th century. It's fact. And at same time were created first slavic religious texts in glagolitic alphabet. First texts in serbian language (like "Miroslavljevo jevanđelje") were created in 12th century. Please tell me - when were created first illyrian/albanian religious books? And why so late? ;)Maybe most of residents of Illyria spoke Latin? ;)

cheers

P.S. Don't forget, that territory of Illyria/Dardania was from 3rd century object of invasions and colonisation of Gothic Tribes (and others like Alans). So ethnic composition on this territories in 6th-7th century when coming Slavs - is very diffuse.

as for arnautes,it comes from argonautes>argnautes>arnautes.
albanians were also known as the people of the sea and had a long story of skilled navigators
(lili, 15 June 2009 20:55)

Tsk, tsk... (you know why), intentionally I did not wanted to say that in order not to offend. But since you begun... I feel not obligated anymore.

Okay, yes, Lili is right if that applies to Illyrians. The entire Mediterranian was fearing the Illyrian pirates. That was the main "activity" they had. Thracians, too.

Once "retired" to the mountains they did continue that on the land. Countless East Roman and Byzantine sources speak that heavy military presence was needed in the valleys in order to secure them from being devastated by "mountain people".

I don't think we should be shy to admit all of this, it has only anecdotical "importance" today. I say "we" because there is no shortage of savage acts done by Slavs, Hungarians, Vikings, crusaders, too. The life was savage at that time either way. The "cultural" Romans executed innocent people feeding them to lions, the "cultural" Chinese invented some pretty barbaric ways of torture.

Prizren is indeed a serbian, or if you want - generally speaking - a slavic word.

that doesn´t mean a lot, except - it shows that the territory is and always was serbian, since the arisal of real statehood in this part of Europe.

if you look for cultural heritage and historical traces, ...they are serbian.

everything else is nonsense, fabricated by greater-albanian dreamers.

History lessons aside, what sort of "country" places its capital three and a half hours drive from its only airport. Are they expecting the EU to build them a new one down at Prizren? Mad.

@Ataman

"There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

Yes, they are. Gold, silver ornaments, too. "

Ornaments confirming presence of Illyrians or Albanians? And is there any sources? As far as I know, even the supporters of the idea that Albanians are Illyrians, admit that there is a lack of documentary and archaeological evidence to prove it.

Of course, only Stefan Dušan and Serbian Church comes to the mind of B92.

Hundreds of Albanian and other monuments in Prizren do not even exist, do they, B92 ?

Little Russia

We came as mercenaries and now we have two countries and the third one in the works, so I'd think we are doing pretty damn good.

albanians copying what Serbians had done from the 14th century. How original? NOT. Let me guess, Czar Dushan was an albanian and his pet with the Mammoth Elephant named Demi?

Obviously it's an attempt to further cleanse Serbia's Kosovo of its historical past in order to construct a mono ethnic state of Albania. With our Czars and Church's history, I'm guessing they want to move this illegal government closer to the eradication process, a more hands on approach.

>> Of course, only Stefan Dušan and Serbian Church comes to the mind of B92.

Hundreds of Albanian and other monuments in Prizren do not even exist, do they, B92 ?>>

one thing is for sure: when you are in b92 land, you never forget where you are...
never.

roberto
frisco

Well the next step must be Serbs moving to Pristina...

@hmmm. Such things are incomparable. Albanians came to Kosovo with NO signs of culture heritage. In the 11th century they were mentioned just as mercenaries. And Albanian alphabet was invented by the Austrian ambassador late in the 19th century as one of the reasons for Albanian statehood.

Dear hmmm,


We mentioned what is commonly considered to be the most relevant background information about the town's history, for the benefit of our international reader who is not closely acquainted with the region.

We did not attempt to provide a list of all historical and other monuments there. However, should any of our readers wish to do so in their comments, we will welcome their effort and contribution.

At the same time, unfortunately, preserved and undisturbed historical monuments are not as "newsworthy" as those that have been damaged.


Regards,

B92

" Prizren was the seat of Serbian Tsar Stefan Dušan's court in the 14th century, during the era of the medieval Serbian empire, and is home to medieval Serbian Orthodox shrines "

That is not why Albanian legislators are asking to make Prizren a capital city by June 10, 2016, but because of the League of Prizren held there in June 10, 1878, that marked a crucial turning point in Albanian history.

Well the next step must be Serbs moving to Pristina...

@hmmm. Such things are incomparable. Albanians came to Kosovo with NO signs of culture heritage. In the 11th century they were mentioned just as mercenaries. And Albanian alphabet was invented by the Austrian ambassador late in the 19th century as one of the reasons for Albanian statehood.
(Little Russia, 13 June 2009 19:40)

May I ask you who gave you that info?what next,Albanians came from space?
God may look over as given with what people We Albanians have to deal with.

Yes , it is true that Serbs have history in Kosovo .

Yes , it is also true that Albanians have history in Kosovo.

The question should be asked ,
Where did these two peoples originally come from and when did they arrive to the Balkans (Kosovo) ???
I can confidently tell you that the Serbs immigrated to the Balkans from Carpathian mountains region (Southern Russia) in the 6 and 7 century A.D.

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !

On to the present time , and we are talking about Kosovo -
The population of Kosovo is almost 95% Albanian .

So the next question I have is why are the Serbs so bothered by Kosovo's independence ?

I mean serbs deffinitely comprise a very small population in Kosovo to begin with regardless of what they say happened in the past !

I beleive the Serbs need to understand that the Albanians were in the Balkans for more then 1500 years B.C. - & Albanians have been there when the Serbs first arrived and will always be there !

Albanians and Serbs have to learn to live with one another regardless of what they think history was or should be !

If we don't learn the easy way then we will have no choice but to learn the hard way !

I think that we are both smarter then that

@Bekim

These "three" could easiliy turn into zero when Americans leave,and boy they are beginning .
As for Macedonia,I like this particular because the Macedonians are lower in number and strength than Albanians which would force them to give up their "Macedonian" nationality and confess their Southern Serb heritage.
Don`t let you fool yourself,the geopolitical situation after this economic crisis will change dramatically and only in Serbia`s favour...

I am all for it. Prizren is beautiful and is full of historic meaning. It is a shame the Prizren League was burned by the Serbs during 1999.

"one thing is for sure: when you are in b92 land, you never forget where you are...
never."

Come now, roberto, you know as well as I that Albanians are just as insensitive to other people's histories and legacies. Attempts at whitewashing any historical presence or contributions of Serbs in Kosovo has become an almost professional job by Kosovo's so-called Ministry of Tourism. So spare us the indignance of historical revisionism.

Plus, your apparent distaste for this website doesn't seem to keep you away, nor refrain for engaging in selective memory of your own.

Let's not get silly here.

Albanians came to Kosovo in the 19th century?

One of the greatest Albanian heroes of all time Lekë Dukagjini was born in Kosova or what about the Kosovar Albanians that fought with Serbs in the Battle of Kosova.

"Ps. 2 Albanians haven't their own name for Prizren - they use serbian name. It's very good sign, that for Albanians Prizren wasn't important place in the past."

What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING! Prizren comes from Petrizên and it has been like that since Roman times. Hmmmm...where were the Serbs in Roman times?

Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.

“At the same time, unfortunately, preserved and undisturbed historical monuments are not as "newsworthy" as those that have been damaged.”
This line could continue a bit longer, saying something like:…as those that have been damaged and which are being repaired. Something similar.

Because this project K-Serbs were expelled from Prizren and serbian medieval monuments was destroyed (like Bogorodica Ljeviška and Manastir Svetih Arhangela)?
Before war in Prizren lived nearly 10 thousand Serbs and today?? Maybe one hundred maybe two... (1-2% of pre-war population)

P.S. Prizren was one of important places for Serbs not only in 14th century, but also in the time of Constantine Bodin in 11th century when Prizren was his capital and from 12th century, when Stefan Nemanja conquered city. It was important site of bulgarian (from 9th century) and serbian Orthodox Church. Prizren was important for Albanian history only from 19th century, when Albanians come in big number to Kosovo...
Ps. 2 Albanians haven't their own name for Prizren - they use serbian name. It's very good sign, that for Albanians Prizren wasn't important place in the past.

Will be very funny when albanian pseudo-government will installed in the city with serbian name and full of serbian medieval monuments :D

No sense of culture is exhibited by those ethnocentric individuals who claim that a people have no culture.

kosovo has albanian history,it should belong to albania,
kosovo has bulgarian history it should belong to bulgaria,
kosovo has serbian history ,it should belong to serbia,
kosovo has turkish history,it should belong to turkey etc etc
so will say nationalist,narrow minded people...
kosovo belongs to the people that live in kosovo,and prizren has during centuries been a symbol of multiculturealcohabitation.
as long as we see the problem as my place your place,we will have troubles and only exacerb nationalism.Is it so difficult to say our common place with albanian,bulgarian,serbian,turkish,rom memorie?We as albanian have fight against turkish empire,but we have today good relation with turkey....

albanians are direct decendants of illyrians and croats accept this.
one day in tv historians of the world in albania accept that albanians are illyrians.

"History is Funny"

You ask...

"What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING!"

The answer from the Wiki article on Prizren is:-

"Its name comes from old Serbian Призрѣнь[2], from при-зрѣти, indicating fortress which could be seen from afar[3] (compare with Czech Pøízøenice)."

Albanian "History" is indeed funny... the more you dig, the more obvious it is that Kosovo is Serbian.

I'm wondering if the Albanians might not be quietly preparing to partition Kosovo... looking at a map, Prizren it tucked away in one corner, close to the Albanian border, a sign that they are looking for a more defensible position when Serbia undoes the NATO agression?

Who knows?

Hang in there Serbia...

What does Prizren mean in Serbian? Oh, wait it means NOTHING! Prizren comes from Petrizên and it has been like that since Roman times. Hmmmm...where were the Serbs in Roman times?

Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.
(History is Funny, 13 June 2009 23:45)

Prizren - from serbian "prizoriti" (to dawn), hence serb. "prozor" (window), "prizor" (sight).
Name compare with czech compare with Czech "Pøízøenice" (part of city of Brno)

And You please tell me what mean "Prizren" in Albanian ;)

Bulgarians take city in 9th century. It was slavic city where lived also Serbs. From 1019 (first time noted) Prizren was siting of Orthodox Dioecese of Prizren.
Prizren was centre of antibyzantine Serb-Bulgarian uprising in 1072 led by serb Konstantin Bodin and bulgarian Georgi Voiteh. And than - Prizren was site of Sebrian dioecese of Prizren.

Any documents from medieval about Albanians... Only Slavs - Bulgarians, Serbs...

I know - it's very hard to you... Any evidence of "Albanian heritage" in kosovo...

Mike, there is no evidence that albanians have been there 2000 years bc. Illyrians - maybe, but they were even in croatia and bosnia. That point does not hold. The origins of albanians are unknown.

Albanians came to Kosovo in the 19th century?

One of the greatest Albanian heroes of all time was born in Kosova or what about the Kosovar Albanians that fought with Serbs in the Battle of Kosova.
(erjon, 14 June 2009 13:08)
Mayby Lekë Dukagjini was born on Kosovo territory, but according to Vatican documents - near Pukë in Albania...

K-Albanians in Battle of Kosovo?? - maybe few number was in the force of Prince of Kosovo Vuk Branković. But how many?? TURKISH cadastral census of Branković land from 1455:
"13000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling"

So - on the Branković lands (consisted most of Kosovo territoty) - lived very, very small number of Albanians. But mayby You think, that Turkish 15th century census is prepared by Milosević propaganda?? ;)

P.S. I don't wrote that on territory of Kosovo in medieval time wasn't any Albanians - they lived here, but in the small number. In big number they come here hundreds years later (e.g. after expulsion of Serbs in 1690 - 37000 Serb families (60-70000 peoples) leave Kosovo incl. 20000 Serbs from Prizren only (2 x more than number of Serbs lived in Prizren in 1999!!). In 18th century next thousands Serbs leave Kosovo becouse turkish oppresion. Somebody comes on this territory after Serbs leaved Kosovo... These peoples was Albanians. And by the end of the 19th century, Albanians replaced the Serbs as the dominating nation of Kosovo.

Little Russia!

Albanians came from Caucasus? when exactly? on what do you base your information?

Appien, Illyrique, II: "it is said that the country,s name is due to Illyrios,son of Polyphème the Cyclope and Galatée They had 3 sons:celtos, Illyrios and Galas who went to sicily and give birth to the celts,the galates and the illyriansetc etc etc .So we are cousins....

Mike Z Said-

"I can confidently tell you that the Serbs immigrated to the Balkans from Carpathian mountains region (Southern Russia) in the 6 and 7 century A.D.

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !"

One question- Did Marty McFly and Doc Brown let you borrow their Dolerean!

Caucasian Albania was located in the eastern area of the Caucasus between the Caspian sea and the tips of the mountain ranges. Foreigners called it Albania, when local people called it Shkiperiya.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/albanian_toponyms.html
Nowadays this territory is partially located in Azerbajdgan, partially in Russia. In the 8th century Arabs converted that population in Islam and used them as mercenaries in their wars. When arabs defeated Byzantines and invaded southern part of Italy, they brought Albanians there to increase Muslim influence(when Byzantines conquered this territory back, they converted some Albanians back to Christianity). In the 11th century Byzantine attacked Serbia, but was defeated. This defeat was used by Byzantine commander George Manjac and he decided to revolt against Byzantine and took with him Albanians. But he was defeated near Doyransk lake and his army surrendered. Byzantine accepted them, but not the foreigners - Albanians. Those Albanians had nowhere to go, so they asked Serbs to let them stay in the Mountains near Raban and to earn thir living by cattle-breeding for themselves and for Serbs, the latter agreed with that (cattle-breeding was Albanian main occupation during the whole period of the Middle ages). But in significant quantities Albanians came later.

Well, I would assume that thoughts over moving the capital to Prizren had more to do with the League of Prizren, than Tsar Dusan's capital.

But if I may, leave the capital in Pristina. Prizren's too nice of a city to have it choked with bureaucratic buildings. Prizren's pricturesque. Leave it that way.

@arti
Albanians came from the Caucasus. Look at this French map, made in 1914. Albanian population is painted in orange. Muslimized Serbs, speaking Albanian are painted in grey.

http://www.srpska.ru/article.php?nid=10542

prizren name in the past was theranda but turks change it into pyrzerin after that to perzeren and finally prizren.

@Ataman
"But they were in the area all the time in form of a small, tight society of mountain people. They moved down in the valleys as the local population died due plague or disappeared due exodus."

Interesting, how have learned it? There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?

Also I don't understand why do you consider "Shqip" to be something intrinsic to the Balkans. "Shqip-tari" is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" -"Ship-TAR".

To B92

Isn't the Monument of League of Prizren damaged twice?

I see arguments here about the name of Prizren. No Prizren came from russian language, no Prizren came from Check. The old name of Prizren was "THERANDA" if you guys wanna know.
(prizreni, 15 June 2009 15:53)

Theranda - Roman, latin name, Prizren - slavic orgin name. So - is no Albanian name for Prizren ;)

And Ilir - "Romans were not a nation but EMPIRE!"

Romans were latin speaking peoples who identified with roman culture. Other peoples (excl. Greeks) was described as "Barbarians". Roman Empire was state - where lived lot of nations, including latin speaking Romans. On Roman Empire area proceeded intensive process of "romanization". This process proceeded on the territory of Illyrian tribes too. After few hundred years of romanization most of Illyrians lost their national identify - they were latin speaking Romans with high influence of roman culture. Their descendants are probably Vlachs. So - if on the territory of province of Dardania lived before Slavs latin speaking peoples (Illyro-Romans, like family of emperor Justinian) connected with Roman culture - they were not Albanian ancestors.

Well, if you were to visit Albania you will see plenty of evidence. From our monasties and churches to the great old cities of Butrint,Amantia,Apollonia (South of albania) Dyrrah (Central Albania) Lisus and Skutari (today Lezha and Shkoder north of Albania).
If you find any nation in Caucasian with these attributes please let B92 know!
(Ilir, 15 June 2009 20:44)

These "great cities", monasties and churches were build by Roman Empire ;) Before Roman Empire - here were nothing special ;)

Prizren is indeed a serbian, or if you want - generally speaking - a slavic word.

that doesn´t mean a lot, except - it shows that the territory is and always was serbian, since the arisal of real statehood in this part of Europe.

if you look for cultural heritage and historical traces, ...they are serbian.

everything else is nonsense, fabricated by greater-albanian dreamers.

History lessons aside, what sort of "country" places its capital three and a half hours drive from its only airport. Are they expecting the EU to build them a new one down at Prizren? Mad.

@Ataman

"There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

Yes, they are. Gold, silver ornaments, too. "

Ornaments confirming presence of Illyrians or Albanians? And is there any sources? As far as I know, even the supporters of the idea that Albanians are Illyrians, admit that there is a lack of documentary and archaeological evidence to prove it.

Situating the capital closer albania proper does make some sense, from an Albanian point of view. My concern though is the infrastructure... road, airport etc... I think that the investment to upgrade prizren to be the capital is not worth all the money to make that so. Pristina is clearly the center. While There some logic to do this for Prizren, it most certainly is not the right time to do so. Maybe in 10 or 20 years if Kosovo stabilizes a little. For the time being there simply is not the money to make this work. Now, maybe it could work... for example, in Illinois the main city is Chicago, and the capital, called Springfield, is quite a bit away and is very small. However, in Europe the capital is usually the no.1 city, so it would not make sense to do this, in my opinion.

For some of you who say that Albanians came in big numbers from Albania after the 19Th century, then where did Presevo Valley Albanians come from? As far as I know they are the eldest tribe that inhabited south Serbia, from Presevo all the way to Nis. . They are the only descendants of Constantin the Great. Prove it that Presevo Albanians were not there when Serbs moved in to the balkans in the 7th century, and then I will believe you that Kosovo Albanians came from Albania. If not, then read the History books written by others than Serbs and Albanians.

I see arguments here about the name of Prizren. No Prizren came from russian language, no Prizren came from Check. The old name of Prizren was "THERANDA" if you guys wanna know.

Ataman, there is no archaelogical neither documentary evidence that Albanians are autochonous in the area. You have voiced just assumptions and nothing more. Albanian language is a mixture of languages of the neighbouring lands what isn't typical to autochonous nations. Albanians didn't have literary works until the 19th century and even Turks used Serbian in their correspondence. Absence of signs of the culture heritage is more important than similarity in the manner of dancing.

As for Caucasus. Albania was known in the Caucasus before Turks came there and spread Turkish language. The Turkish name for the Albanians "Arnauti", means "those who have not returned" and they were aware of the origins of the Albanians, who did not return, but stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. All this may explain the difference in language.
And, second, Michael Ataliotos, a contemporary of Manjak, described the events connected with Manjak and Albanians, which I have mentioned above.

"I find it very strange that the only people who claims Albanians are not indigenous people in Balkans are the Serbs and in few cases the Greeks.
Wonder why??"
(Ilir, 15 June 2009 17:15)

I don't wonder. Except for such famous nations as Romas, Greeks etc., most small nations are usually being examined more by their neighbouring nations. Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists.

As for costumes etc. I haven't explored this particular point, but I can guess that Albanian traditions could be "swallowed" by the neighbouring cultures.

But nobody has given me ANY evidence that Albanians didn't came as mercenaries in the 11th century. We can argue about from where they had come (though I believe in Caucasian theory and follow its development), but not whether Albanians autochonous or not.

I don’t think I’d have any objections to moving it to Prizen, except maybe for Mike’s comments, that would certainly be a consideration.

“Plus, how come Bulgarians were in Kosova? I thought it was your Jerusalem. No one before the Jews was recorded as living in Jerusalem.
(History is Funny, 13 June 2009 23:45)”

The Jebusites would probably beg to differ on that (Yasir Arafat claimed that Palestinians are the descendants of the Jebusites). Suffice to say, the city of Jerusalem has been populated since at least 4,000 BC. It’s well documented in many sources from the time. The Bible talks about it a lot too. I’m sure you’ve heard of King David?

Jerusalem has been occupied by many peoples before and after the Jews. The Jews also lived in a lot of areas besides Israel over their long history. However, that is where the Jewish identity and culture developed and that is why it’s their spiritual homeland. I see a lot of similarities actually. Maybe you might want to read up on some history and maybe throw in a little political science.

Roberto, you’ve got to be kidding? In one post you praise Optor as if they’d support your every opinion, and in this one accuse B92 of nationalist propaganda? Maybe you’d think the Optor types are all nationalists too if you spent any time in Belgrade. Those B92 folks went through some pretty tough times under Milosevic too dude, they aren't nationalists by any stretch.

1) The root of the Russian word for "sight" (зрение) is the same as in "Призрен". This is not even up to debate.

Countless words like "прозреть", "обозреть", etc. all are having the same root and related. It's ridiculous even to debate it.

2) Language used in early medieval Albanian Kingdom in Caucasus has nothing to do with a certain heavily "romanized" and "slavonized" thracian language used today on Western Balkans. The former is language of Lezghs, so if anyone knows the dance called "Лезгинка" - that's it.

http://tinyurl.com/mc5lly

As for "Balkan-Albanian" - most linguists lean towards Thracian, maybe Dacian origin of the said population, less towards Celtic or Illyrian - but there is probably a great mix of everything. From our point of view it does not matter much, what element from the four (Dacian, Thracian, Celtic, Illyrian) is more dominant and it probably will shift as more details will be unearthed. Fact is, that language is an autochon language with very heavy Slavonic and Latin influence.

Caucasus said to have more to do with other local groups, but that, too is "alternative science" and we have to be careful.

Sorry to disappoint everyone. "Lezginka" is not a Shqip dance and Shqip language has more Celtic and Thracian traces than Illyrian ones. To bad for "Caucasian" theory - Thracians and Celts were in the area since few thousand years, Illyrians were their neighbors and related.

But "Prizren" is not Thracian, Celtic, Illyrian or Dacian word, it's Slavonic. Why is that - up for debate, but not the origin of the word.

Appien, Illyrique, II: "it is said that the country,s name is due to Illyrios,son of Polyphème the Cyclope and Galatée They had 3 sons:celtos, Illyrios and Galas who went to sicily and give birth to the celts,the galates and the illyriansetc etc etc .So we are cousins....
(lili, 15 June 2009 00:24)

Precisely, but they left the Thracians out. AFAIK, Galatians were Celts tough. It's what I am saying: Dacians, Illyrians, Thracians, Celts are at the origin of today's Shqips. Which one precisely is hard to tell, I wonder why Illyrians were "picked" - according the language style it's more Thracian(?).

It does not matter, it is an Indo-Iranian language with "only" few thousand year roots in Balkan peninsula, not an agglutinative, even more archaic Lezghian with completely "alien" logic for Indo-Iranians.

Shqip-Albanians are much closer to Russians than to Lezghs (= Caucasian Albanians) or to Fins or to Hungarians!

"Maybe that's precisely behind the Thracian-Illyrian controversy? "

Ataman - I don't wrote about Thraco-Illyrians from 2000 years ago. They don't existed on the most of old Thracia/Illyria territory in 6th-7th century, when Slavs comes. They was romanized, hellenized and partially displaced/murdered in the times oh Gothic invasions in 3rd-5th century (like Ulpiana in Kosovo destroyed in 471 A.D. by Goths).

I wrote about Albanian heritage. Between thraco-illyrian heritage from ancient times and modern albanian heritage on Kosovo territory is 1200-1500 years hole. Or maybe more, because oldest islamic heritage on Kosovo territory is mostly Turkish.

"Prizren was the seat of Serbian Tsar Stefan Dušan's court in the 14th century, during the era of the medieval Serbian empire" B92


right so this makes it serbian now?

this is joke and i dont think it will become a caplital

Interesting, how have learned it? There must be signs of their everyday life, confirming their presence - adornments, fragments of jugs etc. Are there any?
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

Yes, they are. Gold, silver ornaments, too. The language - an indo-iranian - is also the witness. Interestingly, different rulers had to maintain a legion in the area to prevent the mountaineers to devastate the valleys. Obviously the level of the development was lower up in the mountains than in the valleys and the lack of buildings speaks for that. Compare with Caucasus: Armenians, Georgians and Chechens live next to each other. Georgia and Armenia is full of ancient monuments over 1000 years old, Chechnya is full of ornament and pottery fragments, maybe one or two forts, but not much older than few hundred years.

---------------

Also I don't understand why do you consider "Shqip" to be something intrinsic to the Balkans. "Shqip-tari" is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" -"Ship-TAR".
(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 17:35)

1) They begun to call themself "Shqip" only relatively recently.
2) The language is a classic example of Indo-Iranian, like Russian, German, Latin is. It has very heavy Latin and Slav influence.
3) The "ar" ending does not mean automatically Ural-Altaian - and in your samples there are many pure coincidences. Only Khazar, Bulghar, Tatar seem to apply, maybe Avar.

And please use "Shqip", never forget the "q" in the middle - otherwise our opponents will feel very offended.

as for arnautes,it comes from argonautes>argnautes>arnautes.
albanians were also known as the people of the sea and had a long story of skilled navigators
(lili, 15 June 2009 20:55)

Tsk, tsk... (you know why), intentionally I did not wanted to say that in order not to offend. But since you begun... I feel not obligated anymore.

Okay, yes, Lili is right if that applies to Illyrians. The entire Mediterranian was fearing the Illyrian pirates. That was the main "activity" they had. Thracians, too.

Once "retired" to the mountains they did continue that on the land. Countless East Roman and Byzantine sources speak that heavy military presence was needed in the valleys in order to secure them from being devastated by "mountain people".

I don't think we should be shy to admit all of this, it has only anecdotical "importance" today. I say "we" because there is no shortage of savage acts done by Slavs, Hungarians, Vikings, crusaders, too. The life was savage at that time either way. The "cultural" Romans executed innocent people feeding them to lions, the "cultural" Chinese invented some pretty barbaric ways of torture.

Their descendants are probably Vlachs. So - if on the territory of province of Dardania lived before Slavs latin speaking peoples (Illyro-Romans, like family of emperor Justinian) connected with Roman culture - they were not Albanian ancestors.
(Milan, 15 June 2009 22:27)

More-less so. Both Vlachs (Romanians) and today Albanians trace their line back to the Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian tribes, later fully romanized. They were indeed "barbarians" from Roman and Greek point of view and their "activity" (robbery on land, piracy on seas) was somehow under-appreciated. So the former pirates and robbers became accustomed to Roman luxury... and enjoyed much higher level of culture. Instead of pirating at sea they munched their lunch watching people being munched by lions in arena. A clear sign of progress.

That was very cool - till germanic and hunnic tribes did not came and "very politely" asked everyone to leave. As the result of this politeness, the Illyrians, Thracians and other ex-pirate-turned-Roman citizens decided to almost go the way of dinosaurs (= die out). Few who left did retreat to mountains and decided to join the club with Goths, Huns, Avars (just rob whom you can). Than Slavs came. Pretty peacefully. Not because they were so peaceful - but because most of local population left for "Ethernal Hunting Fields™". As everything almost settled, Magyars knocked politely on the door, sending few more locals to said "Ethernal Hunting Fields™". Things became later more peaceful. Croats even "voluntirely"(?) gave up their country and dynasty to us, so they were not exterminated fully (to your biggest disappointment in 21st century probably). While busy with Czechs and Germans and East Romans and Croats we forgot about Serbs and did not exterminate them fully (to biggest disappointment of Croats in 21st century probably). The remaining Thracians/Illyrians decided to stay high in the mountains (so we did not exterminate them to biggest disappointment of both Serbs and Croats in 21st century). As the peace really kicked in, Mongol-Tatars came in and expressed their polite opinion about everyone mentioned before and early retirement to enjoy a happy afterlife. And finally, Ottomans came to ensure, no one is left unhappy in the area.

Short cynic history of Europe, with a lot of fun and happiness, no one was left untouched. And I forgot about fun and excitement the Viking raids did bring. Mediterranian and Balkans were not enough, they went as "gastarbajteri" to America.

alproud

"If you were scholarly minded you would provide evidence and not just say things that fit your interests."

So where are evidence, that name of "Prizren" is albanian/illyrian. We can find very easy slavic origin of this name - so why it can't be true?

"-With this you suggest that the whole world that was under Roman rule spoke Latin. There is no doubt that Latin was the language of the ruling people, of the elites and science and literature on that time."

I don't suggest that all roman world speak latin language. In Roman Empire lived lot of nations - Greeks, Jews, Phoenicians, Celts, Illyrians, Thracians etc. But some of this nations were quickly romanized. Specially were romanized nations which culture was below to roman culture.

"But there is no evidence that Latin was spoken in all the Roman occupied territories. Otherwise we would have Latin be a used language in most of the world today and not a Latin as a dead language."

Ancient Latin language transformed after Roman Empire collapsed into Romance languages family - Italian, Spanish, Portugese, French, Romanian, language of Vlachs and others. Geography of this languages show where latin language were used. These languages were used in Illyria too (Romanian, Vlachs language, Dalmatian language, Istro-Romanian etc. - in old times used on much, much greater area of ancient Illyria/Dardania) So - if Dacia, conquered in 106 AD and abandoned in 271 was in about 170 years totally romanized (today Romanians), than why not Illyrians conquered at 165 BC (Illyricum) or 6 AD (Dardania) and until Slavs comes (6th-7th century) still roman /east roman province??

"-There is no doubt that the whole world is Roman influenced, especially the western world. Illyrians like any other people who were under the Roman rule used Latin, elites, but there is no evidence that normal people have used it."

Oh - there are evidence. Justinian's family were Illyro-Roman PEASANT family. But they spoken LATIN. Don't forget that some of 3rd century Roman Emperors were from Illyricum (e.g. Claudius II, Constantine the Great e.t.c.). They spoke latin and were part of roman culture. So - territory of Illyricum were highly romanized.

"Here are some special things that you either know and avoid, or haven't heard of because you haven't studied it enought: The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. Illyria was increasing in power and economics and became a rival of Ancient Macedonia and Carthegia."

Germanic tribes on the territory of today Germany had too their own kingdoms. They had power. They can defeat Romans - like Arminius in Teutoburg Forest. But they build nothing special - earthen walls, palisades, wooden houses... Same Celt kingdoms on Britain...
And what monumental buildings were build by Illyrians before Roman Empire??

"Another evidence that you should know is that Illyrians became Christian in the 1st century A.D. while Slavs only became Christians in the 9th century. If you are not tired, you can find this in the New Testament, Bible."

Christianity was created on the middle of 1st century. And primary was small sect - presented mainly in the big cities like Rome, Ephesus, Alexandria. So - I don't belive that Illyrians was christianised in 1st century.

Slavs were christianized in 9th century. It's fact. And at same time were created first slavic religious texts in glagolitic alphabet. First texts in serbian language (like "Miroslavljevo jevanđelje") were created in 12th century. Please tell me - when were created first illyrian/albanian religious books? And why so late? ;)Maybe most of residents of Illyria spoke Latin? ;)

cheers

P.S. Don't forget, that territory of Illyria/Dardania was from 3rd century object of invasions and colonisation of Gothic Tribes (and others like Alans). So ethnic composition on this territories in 6th-7th century when coming Slavs - is very diffuse.

Ataman:
"More-less so. Both Vlachs (Romanians) and today Albanians trace their line back to the Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian tribes, later fully romanized. "

So - if Albanians were fully romanized - like Vlachs - So from where is their language? You negate yourself ;)

Ataman, I haven't read not a single argument against the Caucasian theory. You claim that Albanians are autochonous in the Balkans, but you can't explain why many names of vital geographic objects are not in Abanian and were adopted by Albanian language from the other.

(Little Russia, 15 June 2009 10:19)


The biggest argument is their language. Lezg and Shqip are like fire and water, completely of a different nature.

I have nothing against Lezgs on Balkans - but these newcomer Lezgs did adopt a "Shqip" language somehow. Like Volga-Bulgars adopted a Slavonic and to some theories, Subarteans adopted a Slavonic after moving to Bautzen.

The problem, both later two do mean: there was a large Slav population where agglutinative-speaking minority (Bulgars, Subarteans) moved. If that's the case with Lezgs - fine. But than, it means there have to be a large Shqip population because the alleged newcomers "somehow" pulled a completely different language out of blue sky after the move. So while the Albanian-Albanian connection sounds tempting, it does not resolve what it wants to prove, just to contrary: there was a large Shqip-speaking majority to absorb Lezgs.

Therefore - unfortunately - the "Caucasian" theory does prove the opposite what the goal is. The reason, again, is the language being so different.

The problem with lack of Albanian (I mean, Shqip) names can be solved completely differently: while they are not newcomers to Balkans, the Shqip-speaking people are newcomers to the area. The "original" Illyrians, Thracians, etc. were completely "slavized" after Hunnic and Slavic invasion. In 6th Century the entire Pelloponesos was Slavonic-speaking. All this is reflected in names of local cities. As Serbs came, they did find only Slavonic people in the area and used of course same names. Shqips ( = brigands from the mountains) re-gained the long lost areas after series of plagues and other disasters in 15th-17th centuries.

From certain point of view, the area indeed was Illyrian-Thracian-Celtic-Dacian, but there is a gap over 1000 years. Comparison: the people along Moskva-river were agglutinative-speaking till Iuri, the Long-Hand did not came to the area. Now imagine I would say: "Moscow is Hungarian", that's rubbish. Prizren was Slavonic for 1000 years, till people SOMEWHAT RELATED to earlier population came and claimed the entire area. That's precisely as rubbish as "Hungarian Moscow". But pseudo-theories like Albanians being from Urartu / Dagestan / Lezgistan not just do not help establish the truth, they actually UNDERMINE it and help the enemy. Applying them we would "prove" there was a large neo-Thracian speaking population in the area - and it wasn't.

If I would be "neo-Thracian"/Shqip/whatever I would be very happy to claim some Lezgian heritage for two reasons:

1) It proves a large Thracian/Illyrian autochonous population because of language change
2) It establishes (упаси боже!!!) a Lezg-Chechen-Dag-Shqip (modern Albanian) "brotherhood". No, thanks!

I wrote about Albanian heritage. Between thraco-illyrian heritage from ancient times and modern albanian heritage on Kosovo territory is 1200-1500 years hole. Or maybe more, because oldest islamic heritage on Kosovo territory is mostly Turkish.
(Milan, 15 June 2009 12:45)

In general in W. Balkans it is less than 1200 but more than 800 years. In particular regarding valleys of Kosovo the 1200 is probably correct. But they were in the area all the time in form of a small, tight society of mountain people. They moved down in the valleys as the local population died due plague or disappeared due exodus.

This is why as much as they would like, there is not a single "Albanian" building from early medieval Prizren. Or if yes, these "Albanians" did speak Slavonic: I can read what is written on the medieval frescoes.

Nowadays this territory is partially located in Azerbajdgan, partially in Russia. In the 8th century Arabs converted that population in Islam and used them as mercenaries in their wars.
(Little Russia, 14 June 2009 21:54)

Do you know anyone in Azerbaijan who speaks Albanian Little Russia?
Do you know if they have the same traditional costumes as the Albanias?
Do you know if they have the same song or same dances?
For you information we can trace our costumes and traditional songs back thousands of years. So far no similarities have been found with Azerbaijan or any other country in the world.
Last but not least, if you still think i'm part of Albanian propaganda let's match the DNA beetwen the people of Albania and Azerbajan and see who has more similarities Albanians or the Serbs!
I find it very strange that the only people who claims Albanians are not indigenous people in Balkans are the Serbs and in few cases the Greeks.
Wonder why??

Bit more about Lezgs and ORIGINAL Albanians.

If you follow the links, you will see, these languages are AGGLUTINATIVE, again AGGLUTINATIVE languages, like of Urartu, Subartu, Hurrian, Sumerian ones.

Now at the moment we say "Subartu" (their people are called "Sabir") and Sumers, immediately two popular - but largely disputed theories come in mind:

a) Sumer-Urartu-Subartu-Sabir-Megyer link
b) Sumer-Urartu-Subartu-Sabir-Sorb-Srb link.

Both have obviously to do with two OTHER ethnic element in the area (your guess!), NOT the Albanian-Shqip.

The first case is widely known (and disputed), according the second the Sabirs came to the Bautzen (now Eastern part of Germany) area and took the local Slavonic population with them to Balkan peninsula. That (not the Bautzen but the Sabirs) is disputed, too.

In any event, we can regard the agglutanive-speaking "original" Albanians as at least very far (maybe closer) relatives of Hungarians, in ABSOLUTELY NO CASE related to Indo-Iranian speaking "Shqip" population of Balkans.

The Indo-Iranian group versus agglutinative group is like fire and water, agglutinative languages sounding more archaic and completely "alien" - see the following sample.

1) "normal" way to say:

"Shqips have nothing to do with Lezghs". If you can "mirror-translate" that sentence into your native language, your language is "normal" ;)

2) "abnormal" way to say:

"Shqip-multiple-beings-belongs-to nothing common-having-ownership denying Lezgh-multiple-beings-towards" (shorter version: "Skiptároknak semmi közük sincs a lezgekhez")

Note, under 2) there is not a single verb, but it describes perfectly. Just a bit "transgalactic" way to say for Master Yoda ;) Now as far as I know, Lezghs (and thus Caucasian-Albanians) would say it like under 2), not under 1).

Therefore, please... no more "Caucasian Albania". Feel free to call Sq-Albanians to be "Dacians", "Illyrians", "Celts", "Thracians" - neither is 100% perfect (there could be several relationships), but not way off like calling them "Lezghs".

As for "Лезгинка" - according some it's never early to start to learn it ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvcGqVKGOWo

Roberto would probably surprised to see Jews dancing THAT with swords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpmvyjU-Znc

I know - it's very hard to you... Any evidence of "Albanian heritage" in kosovo...
(Milan, 14 June 2009 12:05)

Maybe that's precisely behind the Thracian-Illyrian controversy?

The Caucasian-Albanian theory is 100% bogus - but as some argue, the word set of modern Albanian is rather typical for environment where Thracians lived.

That explains things perfectly, also the lack of their traces in Kosovo, Prizren indeed has nothing to do with them till late medieval ages.

Mike Z wrote,

The Albanians Have been in the Balkans 1500 - 2000 B.C.
and YES there is plenty of proof of that !

Please provide us with some.

Then he said,

The population of Kosovo is almost 95% Albanian .

So the next question I have is why are the Serbs so bothered by Kosovo's independence ?

I mean serbs definitely comprise a very small population in Kosovo to begin with regardless of what they say happened in the past !

Oh, but it matters very much what happened in the past. Why do we have 95% Albanian population in Kosovo when just after WW2 it was about even and before than more Serb.

Ethnic cleansing is not to be rewarded. How did you achieve 95% in such a short time?

hmmm

Well, it is a Serbian newspaper, so naturally they will talk first and foremost about anything Serbian. Do you see Albanian newspapers talking about anything Serbian first and foremost?

roberto

Might I suggest you go find an Albanian newspaper that does not quite bother you so much as a Serbian one? After all, I noticed (and I am sure I am not alone here) that the only things coming out of you here are anti-Serbian. Why is that?

Ataman, I haven't read not a single argument against the Caucasian theory. You claim that Albanians are autochonous in the Balkans, but you can't explain why many names of vital geographic objects are not in Abanian and were adopted by Albanian language from the other.

prizren name in the past was theranda but turks change it into pyrzerin after that to perzeren and finally prizren.
(united states of albania, 15 June 2009 13:16)

Are You sure?? So where was Turks, when in 1019 Prizren was noted as "Prizdrijana" (Призрѣнь)??

Byzantine texts are not included in albanian historical books?? ;)

reading how history is being rewritten in the interest of various nationalist irredentist agendas would be very funny, but unfortunately people writing this nonsense are actually believing it which just leads to more nationalism and misunderstandings. so, to those saying that prizren is not a slavic word, you are wrong (btw, to those albanian nationalists who believe nonsense like this - don't you feel insulted that the name of your country/protectorate is named by serbian word or do you have some alternative explanation for the origin of word kosovo too?). and to those saying that albanians came from the caucasus - you are also wrong. and to those who are 100% sure that albanians are descendents of ancient illyrians - this is unlikely, thracian/dacian origin of albanians seems more likely at least as far as the language is concerned. as for the genetic material, you all share some common blood.

Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists. ----
little russia

Yes the serbian historians are very 'famous'. But you know we prefer to listen to french,german english or american historians and scientists they are way better than yours. So with all due respect to your scientist i don't think that they have enough capability and freedom to do correct and sincere research. Anyway we Albanians know what we are and do not need serbian researchers to tell us what we are, you better focus your research on your own identity that is not that clear either.So please stop insulting us albanians with your pseudo-scientific-theory.

"I don't wonder. Except for such famous nations as Romas, Greeks etc., most small nations are usually being examined more by their neighbouring nations. Given that Serbian experience in scientific researches is much more segnificant that the Albanian one, I would recommend you to listen more to their scientists"

How exactly did you come to this conclusion?
Please ilumenate me with Serbian experience in scientific researches!!!
I rather stick with the western scientific researche since their work is proven ang highly respectful.
Romans were not a nation but EMPIRE!
Ancient Greece was not a nation but made of cities and town in war to the death with each other.
Please tell me which country in Europe or in the world "examines" their neighbours and dinies their right of existence?

"As for costumes etc. I haven't explored this particular point, but I can guess that Albanian traditions could be "swallowed" by the neighbouring cultures"

You should know before you make any claims that when you "examine" a country there are two things you should look out first.
1) Language
2) Custums
These two are the "DNA" of any nation, culture or civilisations.
I don't know any Sllavic or Greek song,literature,costume or any other traditional rhymes used by the Albanians. If you know or have any evidence to prove differently please bring them forwards.

"But nobody has given me ANY evidence that Albanians didn't came as mercenaries in the 11th century. We can argue about from where they had come (though I believe in Caucasian theory and follow its development), but not whether Albanians autochonous or not."

Well, if you were to visit Albania you will see plenty of evidence. From our monasties and churches to the great old cities of Butrint,Amantia,Apollonia (South of albania) Dyrrah (Central Albania) Lisus and Skutari (today Lezha and Shkoder north of Albania).
If you find any nation in Caucasian with these attributes please let B92 know!

The Turkish name for the Albanians "Arnauti", means "those who have not returned" and they were aware of the origins of the Albanians, who did not return, but stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. All this may explain the difference in language.
Little Russia


Arnaut is the Turkish word for the people of Albania. Arnauts in modern Turkey are people of Albanian descent. Historically in the Ottoman Empire, the word often referred to mercenary soldiers from Albania or from the the surrounding mountainous region.
As you may know Little Russia Turkish empire was vast and part of it were many regions. However, they only called the Albanians "Arnaut" which it had another meaning for the Turkish soldiers "unrules peoples" from the montains.
Why don't you ask a expert in Turkish language from the Ankara University? ;)

Caucasian origin for albanians? No,but albanian origin possible:alexandre of macedoine did had soldiers from albanian tribes and it is said that some of his soldier stopped in a place near afghanistan(and possibly azaerbaidjan) the Hunza,long noses,are from balkans...
Hittites did have contacts with balkan tribes and our double headed eagles come from there.
as for prizren,it comes from albanian words that means near drini,the local river.

as for arnautes,it comes from argonautes>argnautes>arnautes.
albanians were also known as the people of the sea and had a long story of skilled navigators

OK to most of comments the city has been settled by Illyrians since ancient times in the 2 century AD was mentioned by romans as THeranda in Ptolemy's Geography in 5 century Petrizen,from 830 till 1013 the city was included in the bullgarian empire under Tsar Samuel after a war against Byzantine empire serbian Duke stefan Nemanja conquered prizren in 1189 and after defeat he give the city back to byzantine and the city was taken by bullgarina empire in 1204 and was seized in in 1208 by serbian Grand prince stefan II Nemanjic and word as Prizren comes from serbian language PRI-ZRCHTI indicating fortress which could seen from afair.. Original name of that prizren valley was THERANDA

Milan,

"Theranda - Roman, latin name, Prizren - slavic orgin name. So - is no Albanian name for Prizren ;)"

-If you were scholarly minded you would provide evidence and not just say things that fit your interests.

"Romans were latin speaking peoples who identified with roman culture."

-With this you suggest that the whole world that was under Roman rule spoke Latin. There is no doubt that Latin was the language of the ruling people, of the elites and science and literature on that time. But there is no evidence that Latin was spoken in all the Roman occupied territories. Otherwise we would have Latin be a used language in most of the world today and not a Latin as a dead language.

"On Roman Empire area proceeded intensive process of "romanization". This process proceeded on the territory of Illyrian tribes too. After few hundred years of romanization most of Illyrians lost their national identify - they were latin speaking Romans with high influence of roman culture."

-There is no doubt that the whole world is Roman influenced, especially the western world. Illyrians like any other people who were under the Roman rule used Latin, elites, but there is no evidence that normal people have used it. Again, if people had used, Albanian wouldn't be a language, wouldn't exist at all today. To just let you know, if you would read rather create theories of your own would learn how much influence the Romans actually had from Illyrians, with several rulers from Illyrian origin and adoption of what was best of them.

"Before Roman Empire - here were nothing special ;)"

- Here are some special things that you either know and avoid, or haven't heard of because you haven't studied it enought: The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. Illyria was increasing in power and economics and became a rival of Ancient Macedonia and Carthegia.

Another evidence that you should know is that Illyrians became Christian in the 1st century A.D. while Slavs only became Christians in the 9th century. If you are not tired, you can find this in the New Testament, Bible.

There's no need to smile, facts are facts and opinions are opinions. Some remain true not only to their virtue of honesty, but also others, while some others don't for either theirs or others.

cheers,

The reason why Prizren would be a logical solution for the capital of Kosova is that it is has historical importance for all ethnic groups in Kosova, from Albanians, Serbs, and Turks to Roma and Slav-speaking Muslims Torbeshi and Gorani. It's the birthplace of Albanian statehood, a distinctly Ottoman city AND the ancient seat of Tzar Dushan's empire, all at once. So, where is the problem?
History is in the PAST, by definition. It will influence our future, but should not dictate it.