“80,000 people executed after World War II”

It is things like this that show that Communism was as evil as Fascism was, both had no regard for human life.

May all the victims of the regimes of those time rest in peace and may we never see such regimes again!

My country lost millions to both, lest we forget.

Let's not forget the past and how Albanians killed thousands of Serbs during WW2. Even the nazis were surprised at the brutality of the Albanian terrorists.

"In an attack on the village of Velika in the Lim valley, Kosovar Albanian troops in the Skanderbeg SS Division murdered Serbian civilians, women, and children. Milunka Vucetic personally witnessed the murder of the three-year-old Serbian child Tomislav Vucetic, who was then skinned alive by Kosovar Albanian troops in the Skanderbeg SS Division"
http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/July_23/2.html

Indeed. Most of the "cleanings" were actually ordered by a certain грызун, I mean, sorry, грузин sitting in Moscow. Tito at that time (1944-1947) was one of his favorite lapdogs.

There are about 10000 ethnic Germans and at least 20000 ethnic Hungarians among the victims. In both cases passive villagers, not even silent supporters of fascists or nazi collaborators. It is reported, Tito had some remorse about that decades later, silently agreed that "it was to much" as he said during a hunting event in 70-s.

I am very curious, too - how much evidence around "Чича" is fabricated.

"Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS.."
AlbanskiPatriot

And how do you know that? You have any proof or is it just stories passed on to you by Enver Hoxha?

Not to forget 10th's of Kosova Albanians that where victims of the same crime from partisans.

It's true about the Germans. One of the reasons the Slovenes were so adamant about kicking out all the Gottscheer Germans was that the enclave was used as an execution and burial site for Tito's enemies. I found it grossly ironic that when travelling to the ruins of my father's village a few years ago, there was a monument on the side of the road to all the Partisans killed in action over this. But my father and grandfather remember most of the hostility from the Partisans were coming from Slovenes (naturally for being in the area) and not Serbs.

That number is actually much much higher, especially with how many Germans were killed in Vojvodina and don't forget the ethnic cleansing of Germans and Hungarians after WW2 in Vojvodina.

Ataman

1.I value your good Russian but the rest of the visitors won’t. Besides as you must know Stalin was an Ossetian by his father and Georgian by his mother. In Georgia the only city which had his name was the Ossetian town of Tshinval . It was called Stalinir (Сталинир) where “Ir” means Ossetia. They say he equally spoke good Ossetian and Georgian.

2.Because you represent here also the Hungarians I have to note that there’s a big difference between killing the Chetnics who were real heroes of the war and the civilians of the two fascist nations that you have mentioned here. Of course both are crimes but killing Germans and Hungarians in 1945 one can at least explain as a revenge for their 1000 times bigger crimes.

3.The only explanation I find for killing Draza Mikhailovic is the strive for state power. Besides in most of the occupied countries partisan movement was accompanied with the elements of civil wars. I know only two states where we can talk of the massive partisan movement before 1944. Those were Serbia and USSR ( all the rest have joined us in late 1944 or even in 1945. ) and Colonel Mikhailovic was the first to rebel.

4.I don’t know why Serbs need this masochism today when they are attacked from every side. If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ? This discussion can only damage the reputation Serbia already has in the Western Mass Foolia.

Ataman and roberto, et al

You can also find a lot of stuff about the Gottscheer Germans through the Gottscheer Heritage and Genealogical Association GHGA here

http://www.gottschee.org/

For a small and dwindling group of people (there's roughly 100 - 250 native speakers left, including my father), they do a fantastic job of preserving the history and identity of the region. Surprisingly, much of the original records of family life were preserved by the Nazis for documentation as they planned to move the entire community from their ancestral homes in southern Slovenia (given to Italy) northward towards Hungary.

I'd say roughly 75% made it out alive. Half of that group migrated from Austria to the US and Canada from the late 1940s onward.

Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS..

Thanks Mike.

i think it is important to try to be open about the past, wherever it may lead us. whether about the 2nd world war or the 90s. i just located this new(?) book about ww2 in the balkans (Hitler's New disorder...)and will be happy to share some of the conclusions (when allowed here.)

when i read or meet those who lost family, civilians who were MUrdered during wars as civilians of a certain group, then i understand them very intuitively, on a very basic level. they want bones or something to bury, to honor -- i feel the same way; my family has had NOTHing (xcept anecdotal comments.) those of my mother's generation often want to forget, as much as possible, not to keep bringing it all up. but of course it is impossible, and we of the 2nd generation typically feel the opposite.

in the balkans there were members of every ethnicity who were on many, many sides. i have often argued that this complexity needs to be honestly drawn out, rather than the one-sided portrayals i often read.

it is NOT that i relativize history -- i hate the nazis and everythng they stood (stand) for, and all who collaborated with them in their evil. but i know it played out in a very complex way, esp. in the balkans, and we should not be afraid of that complexity, or hide from it.

roberto
frisco

>>Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS..
(AlbanskiPatriot, 10 June 2009 17:54>>

Thanks, Albanski Patriot, i am also aware of some of this history and would also appreciate more english lang. resources on this era if you know of any. and i will keep my eyes open of course.

also thanks, ataman, altho you surely give my german skills too much credit, esp for any academic purposes, not to mention my very substandard russian, serbo-croatian (as i've learned it) or albanian. with hungarian i never even bothered :) in these cases i am rather typically american.

as for antisemitism, most of us (jews) are only too aware of its extent, and some of what i read here i know is only the tiny tip of the iceberg.

today we had an attack(?) on the holocaust center in wash dc. it is believed the gunman has "white power" connections.

it of course saddens me to watch right wing, nationalist parties on the rise throughout europe, though it is hardly surprising (not that i am defending it!) during stressed economic times, ie global depression.

i am sorry to hear about the baltic countries -- i really don't know the details and as you can imagine i've always been fully in support of their respective independence. but it doesn't excuse anti-russian bias if it plays out in "racist" (ethnic) ways.

as for hungary, as i've mentioned i've been there on a # of occasions, and always had a good time, sometimes too good :) i did befriend 2 Jewish men who were frdns. one, the older, had been a communist (more or less) and tended to minimize anti-semitism there. the other, about 15 years younger (who was also gay) was very upfront about widespread hungarian hatred for jews and xenophobia in general, as i heard from others, incl one frnd who was a transplant from novi sad (and also a 7th day adventist.)

i am trying to track down a new book on ww2 -- Hitler's New Disorder: the 2nd world war in yugoslavia (Stevan Pavlowitch) it is recommended by tim judah, and if/when i find it i'll share my opinions.

thanks again.

roberto
frsico

I am curious, ataman, to know if you are aware of reputable engl-lang. sources that cover the events/orders that you are describing.
(roberto, 10 June 2009 19:31)

Not many as I know. These were "forgotten" events, Tito himself wanted to forget. The position of official SU/Russian, YU/Serbian, Hungarian states was, they wanted these events never happened and everything landed firmly under the rug.

I suspect, you can receive most information in German - from sources you unlikely want to touch ever, like BdV. But it will be not easy because lately from three words "Flucht, Vertreibung, Versöhnung" the official accent is on the word "Versöhnung" and there seem to be a trend towards "central" position, not to the "right":

http://tinyurl.com/mvdk57

Ultimately there is enough forces now in Serbia to unearth these sad events so ultimately it will surface to the mainstream. Speaking about mainstream - if I am you - I would try to understand and spread the word about momentarily a more difficult problem: neo-nazis of Estonia, Latvia and in particular of Hungary becoming the "mainstream" and the shame of these countries. In Estonia and Latvia there are tens of thousand people born there but being denied citizenship just because of their ethnic ( = Russian) background. This is, too, medieval. It seems, people in Europe can't move over and create an environment like people in Silicon Valley did. So they will fail economically again and again.

As for Hungary - it's geographically very close to your favorite area, come here and see that "fun" in person.

I am curious, ataman, to know if you are aware of reputable engl-lang. sources that cover the events/orders that you are describing. i think there is so much about the war, so many aspects that the general public is still unaware of.

also i think it should be pointed out,as others have, that there were mass killings throughout the former YU, some instigated by the partisans. whether they were all ordered by tito, by moscow, and whether they were carried out by different and opposing groups of partisans i cannot say with certainty.

roberto
frisco

I don’t know why Serbs need this masochism today when they are attacked from every side. If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ? This discussion can only damage the reputation Serbia already has in the Western Mass Foolia.

(Hand Of Moscow, 10 June 2009 21:12)

The truth is, this as well as other things (killing of "Chicha" Drazha) had not much of Serbian roots. Tito "merely" did, what he was asked to do. It is incorrect to link the killing of absolutely innocent Hungarian and German villagers with the crime of few extremist arrow-cross guys coming from Hungary and not-so-few nazis coming from Germany.

The general opinion is, both crimes (show-trial of "Chicha" Drazha and ethnic cleansing in Vojvodina) was ordered by Stalin, he had certain plans about Balkans and neither Drazha Mihailovic, nor Hungarians and Germans of Vojvodina did "fit" in his plans. And at that time "not fitting" in Stalin's plans was a sure death sentence.

I don't think, this discussion would make much damage to Serbia - as long as we remember, who was the "designer" of this tragedy and that Stalin was neither Serbian nor Russian. To what degree was he Ossetian and to what degree was he Georgian is disputed, but for Serbs and Hungarians here probably does not matter much. We won't make a big mistake to add an other 80000 souls of Vojvodina + Drazha Mihailovic to his account with Russians, Tatars, Jews, Volga-Germans, Poles, Ukrainians in excess of probably 50 million.

We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....

No need to add more to what he is already responsible for. Though the fantastic figure of 50 mln was born in your head
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

How about artificially induced famine in the Soviet Union? I am not talking only about executed people, I include all victims of GULAG + indirect victims (see the famine) + cases like that.

----------

All the rest is a propaganda duck including his influence on Tito.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

This is incorrect, the witness is no one else, but Tito himself - who did regret what happened in Vojvodina later.

----------

I agree cause in the context of 1945 “ innocent Hungarian and German villagers “ sounds really ridiculous.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

It is not. The majority had nothing to do with "arrow cross" or "SS". Most were passive on-lookers. Some did actively support "arrow cross" and/or "SS". Some did hide Jews, Gypsies, leftists.

----------

Who do you think sent their sons to kill our children and parents and to burn 70 000 of our cities and villages ?
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

Who? The fascist government, of course. There was such thing as mandatory military service and if you had to go - you had to go. The crimes against civil population of USSR committed by many German units and in particular by Hungarian units are sickening. In particular, some Hungarian units were more brutal than German or Ustashe. But there should not be any revenge like that. Punish the guilty only.

----------

Only thanks to J.Stalin this did not happen.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

AFAIK, Stalin's personality was all about revenge. He was known to be like Bourbons: never learn, never forgive. And yes, did he love collective punishments! Read about Volga-Germans, Crimea-Tatars and not-finished (he did die luckily) re-settlement of Jews (as a result of the abandoned trial of doctors). I don't think we need to defend someone who was probably the biggest or second-biggest criminal (after Hitler) of 20th century.

Hand of Moscow

"If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ?"

Not that I am offended, but how do you come about comparing Poles to the Ustashe, who even made the Germans sick with their barbarism, and the Albanians, who the Germans saw as militarily useless, overly brutal and then disbanding their divisions?

Sounds like Communist propaganda to me.

Yes, I believe that the number is much higher. And yes, there were many German and Hungarian victims as well...although very little Albanians because the overwhelming majority supported the Partizan movement after Italy capitulated. However, the Serbs were the target of the KPJ (the Partizans) and suffered immensely by Communist regime.

One thing I would ask of the editors of B92 is that they refer to Dragoljub Draza Mihailovic by his correct title of Army General and Minister of Defense.

ataman

“to add an other 80 000 souls of Vojvodina + Drazha Mihailovic to his account with Russians, Tatars, Jews, Volga-Germans, Poles, Ukrainians in excess of probably 50 million”

No need to add more to what he is already responsible for. Though the fantastic figure of 50 mln was born in your head he is still responsible for thousands ( not millions ! ) of innocent victims. Since 1936 when it all started till 1953 about 900 000 were executed in the USSR including criminals and war criminals. All the rest is a propaganda duck including his influence on Tito.

“It is incorrect to link the killing of absolutely innocent Hungarian and German villagers “

I agree cause in the context of 1945 “ innocent Hungarian and German villagers “ sounds really ridiculous. Who do you think sent their sons to kill our children and parents and to burn 70 000 of our cities and villages ? So you are absolutely right the comparison is incorrect. In 1945 Germans and Hungarians were free for massive revenge and only thanks to J.Stalin this did not happen. Read Nuernberg materials.

"We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....
(Historian, 11 June 2009 12:58)"

Well said Historian! .... TITO and his communists were nothing but butchers and certainly little better than those who they fought against.

There is the well known "Bleiburg Tragedy" in which the commies murdered hundreds of thousands Croats and Slovenes who refused to side with them. The Slovenes and Croats to this day continue to unearth mass graves of these innocent victims that had little to do with the Ustasha or Nazis but fled in advance of the Red Army and only then forcibly repatriated from Austria by the British to Tito and his commie murderes.

One day the full truth will come out over what happended during and especially after WW2 on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia .....

Historian & Sin City wrote:

"We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....
(Historian, 11 June 2009 12:58)"

Well said Historian! .... TITO and his communists were nothing but butchers and certainly little better than those who they fought against.

There is the well known "Bleiburg Tragedy" in which the commies murdered hundreds of thousands Croats and Slovenes who refused to side with them. The Slovenes and Croats to this day continue to unearth mass graves of these innocent victims that had little to do with the Ustasha or Nazis but fled in advance of the Red Army and only then forcibly repatriated from Austria by the British to Tito and his commie murderes.

One day the full truth will come out over what happended during and especially after WW2 on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia .....
(SinCity, 12 June 2009 06:31)

I agree...the Partizans were butchers...but not of Croats. I will remind you that the Partizan movement was headed by Croats and directly and indirectly collaborated with the Ustashi and the Nazis in order to topple the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. I will also remind you that an overwhelming number of Croatian Ustashi & Domobrans joined the Partizans after Italy capitulated.

The bottom line is this; Croatians committed genocide in both the Ustashi & Partizan ranks. And your estimated number of victims in Blieburg are WAY over inflated. Tito, a Craot, needed to rid himself of any connection between him and those Croats who did not understand his politics. Hence, Blieburg. Those were not "victims" of genocide but rather "victims" of politics. Either way, both the Ustashi and Partizan movements were full of Croatian murdurers who enforced Croatia's AND Yugoslavia's genocidal policy against it's Serb CIVILIANS. Yes, the truth is coming out.

Not to forget 10th's of Kosova Albanians that where victims of the same crime from partisans.

Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS..

I am curious, ataman, to know if you are aware of reputable engl-lang. sources that cover the events/orders that you are describing. i think there is so much about the war, so many aspects that the general public is still unaware of.

also i think it should be pointed out,as others have, that there were mass killings throughout the former YU, some instigated by the partisans. whether they were all ordered by tito, by moscow, and whether they were carried out by different and opposing groups of partisans i cannot say with certainty.

roberto
frisco

That number is actually much much higher, especially with how many Germans were killed in Vojvodina and don't forget the ethnic cleansing of Germans and Hungarians after WW2 in Vojvodina.

"Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS.."
AlbanskiPatriot

And how do you know that? You have any proof or is it just stories passed on to you by Enver Hoxha?

Ataman

1.I value your good Russian but the rest of the visitors won’t. Besides as you must know Stalin was an Ossetian by his father and Georgian by his mother. In Georgia the only city which had his name was the Ossetian town of Tshinval . It was called Stalinir (Сталинир) where “Ir” means Ossetia. They say he equally spoke good Ossetian and Georgian.

2.Because you represent here also the Hungarians I have to note that there’s a big difference between killing the Chetnics who were real heroes of the war and the civilians of the two fascist nations that you have mentioned here. Of course both are crimes but killing Germans and Hungarians in 1945 one can at least explain as a revenge for their 1000 times bigger crimes.

3.The only explanation I find for killing Draza Mikhailovic is the strive for state power. Besides in most of the occupied countries partisan movement was accompanied with the elements of civil wars. I know only two states where we can talk of the massive partisan movement before 1944. Those were Serbia and USSR ( all the rest have joined us in late 1944 or even in 1945. ) and Colonel Mikhailovic was the first to rebel.

4.I don’t know why Serbs need this masochism today when they are attacked from every side. If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ? This discussion can only damage the reputation Serbia already has in the Western Mass Foolia.

Let's not forget the past and how Albanians killed thousands of Serbs during WW2. Even the nazis were surprised at the brutality of the Albanian terrorists.

"In an attack on the village of Velika in the Lim valley, Kosovar Albanian troops in the Skanderbeg SS Division murdered Serbian civilians, women, and children. Milunka Vucetic personally witnessed the murder of the three-year-old Serbian child Tomislav Vucetic, who was then skinned alive by Kosovar Albanian troops in the Skanderbeg SS Division"
http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2004/July_23/2.html

Indeed. Most of the "cleanings" were actually ordered by a certain грызун, I mean, sorry, грузин sitting in Moscow. Tito at that time (1944-1947) was one of his favorite lapdogs.

There are about 10000 ethnic Germans and at least 20000 ethnic Hungarians among the victims. In both cases passive villagers, not even silent supporters of fascists or nazi collaborators. It is reported, Tito had some remorse about that decades later, silently agreed that "it was to much" as he said during a hunting event in 70-s.

I am very curious, too - how much evidence around "Чича" is fabricated.

It is things like this that show that Communism was as evil as Fascism was, both had no regard for human life.

May all the victims of the regimes of those time rest in peace and may we never see such regimes again!

My country lost millions to both, lest we forget.

>>Not to forget what the CETNIKS did in Kosovo after the war was over. They all changed Cetnik clothes and became PARTIZANS..
(AlbanskiPatriot, 10 June 2009 17:54>>

Thanks, Albanski Patriot, i am also aware of some of this history and would also appreciate more english lang. resources on this era if you know of any. and i will keep my eyes open of course.

also thanks, ataman, altho you surely give my german skills too much credit, esp for any academic purposes, not to mention my very substandard russian, serbo-croatian (as i've learned it) or albanian. with hungarian i never even bothered :) in these cases i am rather typically american.

as for antisemitism, most of us (jews) are only too aware of its extent, and some of what i read here i know is only the tiny tip of the iceberg.

today we had an attack(?) on the holocaust center in wash dc. it is believed the gunman has "white power" connections.

it of course saddens me to watch right wing, nationalist parties on the rise throughout europe, though it is hardly surprising (not that i am defending it!) during stressed economic times, ie global depression.

i am sorry to hear about the baltic countries -- i really don't know the details and as you can imagine i've always been fully in support of their respective independence. but it doesn't excuse anti-russian bias if it plays out in "racist" (ethnic) ways.

as for hungary, as i've mentioned i've been there on a # of occasions, and always had a good time, sometimes too good :) i did befriend 2 Jewish men who were frdns. one, the older, had been a communist (more or less) and tended to minimize anti-semitism there. the other, about 15 years younger (who was also gay) was very upfront about widespread hungarian hatred for jews and xenophobia in general, as i heard from others, incl one frnd who was a transplant from novi sad (and also a 7th day adventist.)

i am trying to track down a new book on ww2 -- Hitler's New Disorder: the 2nd world war in yugoslavia (Stevan Pavlowitch) it is recommended by tim judah, and if/when i find it i'll share my opinions.

thanks again.

roberto
frsico

Thanks Mike.

i think it is important to try to be open about the past, wherever it may lead us. whether about the 2nd world war or the 90s. i just located this new(?) book about ww2 in the balkans (Hitler's New disorder...)and will be happy to share some of the conclusions (when allowed here.)

when i read or meet those who lost family, civilians who were MUrdered during wars as civilians of a certain group, then i understand them very intuitively, on a very basic level. they want bones or something to bury, to honor -- i feel the same way; my family has had NOTHing (xcept anecdotal comments.) those of my mother's generation often want to forget, as much as possible, not to keep bringing it all up. but of course it is impossible, and we of the 2nd generation typically feel the opposite.

in the balkans there were members of every ethnicity who were on many, many sides. i have often argued that this complexity needs to be honestly drawn out, rather than the one-sided portrayals i often read.

it is NOT that i relativize history -- i hate the nazis and everythng they stood (stand) for, and all who collaborated with them in their evil. but i know it played out in a very complex way, esp. in the balkans, and we should not be afraid of that complexity, or hide from it.

roberto
frisco

It's true about the Germans. One of the reasons the Slovenes were so adamant about kicking out all the Gottscheer Germans was that the enclave was used as an execution and burial site for Tito's enemies. I found it grossly ironic that when travelling to the ruins of my father's village a few years ago, there was a monument on the side of the road to all the Partisans killed in action over this. But my father and grandfather remember most of the hostility from the Partisans were coming from Slovenes (naturally for being in the area) and not Serbs.

I am curious, ataman, to know if you are aware of reputable engl-lang. sources that cover the events/orders that you are describing.
(roberto, 10 June 2009 19:31)

Not many as I know. These were "forgotten" events, Tito himself wanted to forget. The position of official SU/Russian, YU/Serbian, Hungarian states was, they wanted these events never happened and everything landed firmly under the rug.

I suspect, you can receive most information in German - from sources you unlikely want to touch ever, like BdV. But it will be not easy because lately from three words "Flucht, Vertreibung, Versöhnung" the official accent is on the word "Versöhnung" and there seem to be a trend towards "central" position, not to the "right":

http://tinyurl.com/mvdk57

Ultimately there is enough forces now in Serbia to unearth these sad events so ultimately it will surface to the mainstream. Speaking about mainstream - if I am you - I would try to understand and spread the word about momentarily a more difficult problem: neo-nazis of Estonia, Latvia and in particular of Hungary becoming the "mainstream" and the shame of these countries. In Estonia and Latvia there are tens of thousand people born there but being denied citizenship just because of their ethnic ( = Russian) background. This is, too, medieval. It seems, people in Europe can't move over and create an environment like people in Silicon Valley did. So they will fail economically again and again.

As for Hungary - it's geographically very close to your favorite area, come here and see that "fun" in person.

I don’t know why Serbs need this masochism today when they are attacked from every side. If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ? This discussion can only damage the reputation Serbia already has in the Western Mass Foolia.

(Hand Of Moscow, 10 June 2009 21:12)

The truth is, this as well as other things (killing of "Chicha" Drazha) had not much of Serbian roots. Tito "merely" did, what he was asked to do. It is incorrect to link the killing of absolutely innocent Hungarian and German villagers with the crime of few extremist arrow-cross guys coming from Hungary and not-so-few nazis coming from Germany.

The general opinion is, both crimes (show-trial of "Chicha" Drazha and ethnic cleansing in Vojvodina) was ordered by Stalin, he had certain plans about Balkans and neither Drazha Mihailovic, nor Hungarians and Germans of Vojvodina did "fit" in his plans. And at that time "not fitting" in Stalin's plans was a sure death sentence.

I don't think, this discussion would make much damage to Serbia - as long as we remember, who was the "designer" of this tragedy and that Stalin was neither Serbian nor Russian. To what degree was he Ossetian and to what degree was he Georgian is disputed, but for Serbs and Hungarians here probably does not matter much. We won't make a big mistake to add an other 80000 souls of Vojvodina + Drazha Mihailovic to his account with Russians, Tatars, Jews, Volga-Germans, Poles, Ukrainians in excess of probably 50 million.

Yes, I believe that the number is much higher. And yes, there were many German and Hungarian victims as well...although very little Albanians because the overwhelming majority supported the Partizan movement after Italy capitulated. However, the Serbs were the target of the KPJ (the Partizans) and suffered immensely by Communist regime.

One thing I would ask of the editors of B92 is that they refer to Dragoljub Draza Mihailovic by his correct title of Army General and Minister of Defense.

ataman

“to add an other 80 000 souls of Vojvodina + Drazha Mihailovic to his account with Russians, Tatars, Jews, Volga-Germans, Poles, Ukrainians in excess of probably 50 million”

No need to add more to what he is already responsible for. Though the fantastic figure of 50 mln was born in your head he is still responsible for thousands ( not millions ! ) of innocent victims. Since 1936 when it all started till 1953 about 900 000 were executed in the USSR including criminals and war criminals. All the rest is a propaganda duck including his influence on Tito.

“It is incorrect to link the killing of absolutely innocent Hungarian and German villagers “

I agree cause in the context of 1945 “ innocent Hungarian and German villagers “ sounds really ridiculous. Who do you think sent their sons to kill our children and parents and to burn 70 000 of our cities and villages ? So you are absolutely right the comparison is incorrect. In 1945 Germans and Hungarians were free for massive revenge and only thanks to J.Stalin this did not happen. Read Nuernberg materials.

Ataman and roberto, et al

You can also find a lot of stuff about the Gottscheer Germans through the Gottscheer Heritage and Genealogical Association GHGA here

http://www.gottschee.org/

For a small and dwindling group of people (there's roughly 100 - 250 native speakers left, including my father), they do a fantastic job of preserving the history and identity of the region. Surprisingly, much of the original records of family life were preserved by the Nazis for documentation as they planned to move the entire community from their ancestral homes in southern Slovenia (given to Italy) northward towards Hungary.

I'd say roughly 75% made it out alive. Half of that group migrated from Austria to the US and Canada from the late 1940s onward.

Hand of Moscow

"If they give figures of the kind why don’t they give comparison with the Ustashas , Poles , Albanians ect. ?"

Not that I am offended, but how do you come about comparing Poles to the Ustashe, who even made the Germans sick with their barbarism, and the Albanians, who the Germans saw as militarily useless, overly brutal and then disbanding their divisions?

Sounds like Communist propaganda to me.

We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....

No need to add more to what he is already responsible for. Though the fantastic figure of 50 mln was born in your head
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

How about artificially induced famine in the Soviet Union? I am not talking only about executed people, I include all victims of GULAG + indirect victims (see the famine) + cases like that.

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All the rest is a propaganda duck including his influence on Tito.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

This is incorrect, the witness is no one else, but Tito himself - who did regret what happened in Vojvodina later.

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I agree cause in the context of 1945 “ innocent Hungarian and German villagers “ sounds really ridiculous.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

It is not. The majority had nothing to do with "arrow cross" or "SS". Most were passive on-lookers. Some did actively support "arrow cross" and/or "SS". Some did hide Jews, Gypsies, leftists.

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Who do you think sent their sons to kill our children and parents and to burn 70 000 of our cities and villages ?
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

Who? The fascist government, of course. There was such thing as mandatory military service and if you had to go - you had to go. The crimes against civil population of USSR committed by many German units and in particular by Hungarian units are sickening. In particular, some Hungarian units were more brutal than German or Ustashe. But there should not be any revenge like that. Punish the guilty only.

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Only thanks to J.Stalin this did not happen.
(Hand of Moscow, 11 June 2009 06:15)

AFAIK, Stalin's personality was all about revenge. He was known to be like Bourbons: never learn, never forgive. And yes, did he love collective punishments! Read about Volga-Germans, Crimea-Tatars and not-finished (he did die luckily) re-settlement of Jews (as a result of the abandoned trial of doctors). I don't think we need to defend someone who was probably the biggest or second-biggest criminal (after Hitler) of 20th century.

"We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....
(Historian, 11 June 2009 12:58)"

Well said Historian! .... TITO and his communists were nothing but butchers and certainly little better than those who they fought against.

There is the well known "Bleiburg Tragedy" in which the commies murdered hundreds of thousands Croats and Slovenes who refused to side with them. The Slovenes and Croats to this day continue to unearth mass graves of these innocent victims that had little to do with the Ustasha or Nazis but fled in advance of the Red Army and only then forcibly repatriated from Austria by the British to Tito and his commie murderes.

One day the full truth will come out over what happended during and especially after WW2 on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia .....

Historian & Sin City wrote:

"We Croats have been trying to explain to the Serbian people for the last 50 years that the Partzians were butchers and not liberators, but you kept ignoring us. When will you ever learn....
(Historian, 11 June 2009 12:58)"

Well said Historian! .... TITO and his communists were nothing but butchers and certainly little better than those who they fought against.

There is the well known "Bleiburg Tragedy" in which the commies murdered hundreds of thousands Croats and Slovenes who refused to side with them. The Slovenes and Croats to this day continue to unearth mass graves of these innocent victims that had little to do with the Ustasha or Nazis but fled in advance of the Red Army and only then forcibly repatriated from Austria by the British to Tito and his commie murderes.

One day the full truth will come out over what happended during and especially after WW2 on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia .....
(SinCity, 12 June 2009 06:31)

I agree...the Partizans were butchers...but not of Croats. I will remind you that the Partizan movement was headed by Croats and directly and indirectly collaborated with the Ustashi and the Nazis in order to topple the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. I will also remind you that an overwhelming number of Croatian Ustashi & Domobrans joined the Partizans after Italy capitulated.

The bottom line is this; Croatians committed genocide in both the Ustashi & Partizan ranks. And your estimated number of victims in Blieburg are WAY over inflated. Tito, a Craot, needed to rid himself of any connection between him and those Croats who did not understand his politics. Hence, Blieburg. Those were not "victims" of genocide but rather "victims" of politics. Either way, both the Ustashi and Partizan movements were full of Croatian murdurers who enforced Croatia's AND Yugoslavia's genocidal policy against it's Serb CIVILIANS. Yes, the truth is coming out.