Witness: Serbia knew about Storm

Oh I see, because Lazarevic claims that Serbia knew about storm a couple of days before it began that means the ethnic cleansing of Croatian Serbs was ok?

Silly me. I suppose that, together with the argument that the US sanctioned this attack means it wasn't a war crime at all!

Even if Milosevic knew about this he didn't care. All he was worried about was not to loose power. He knew that defending such a large territory in the long run was impossible. Milosevic was the biggest anti-Serb ever. He should have been tried for treason while he was alive. How anyone likes this man is beyond me.

bganon,
For once I agree with your comment. Go figure.
Cheers!

All part of their terror tactics to ensure the Serbians would flee bganon. I see those actions are a form of ethnic cleansing. Besides we all know what happened to those unfortunate to stay behind.

I remember these catastrophic days and the "actions" of Milosevic.
In order to save his position he sold out fellow Serbs in Krajina and if the Bosnian Serbs listened to him there would be no Serbs in Bosnia anymore!
God punished him,he died alone and shamefully in a prison cell.
His guilt was not fighting the wars ,but his inability to defend Serbs and their interests and robbing them.

He knew that defending such a large territory in the long run was impossible.
(MikeC, 4 June 2009 14:51)
--
Mike, with all due respect I don't understand your point. If defending such a large area was impossible is Milosevic a traitor for defending it or pulling out?

This is a case of damned if I do and damned if I don't. Serbia and the Serbians were being attacked from every angle by what was then a very power US/Germany/Vatican with Russia on its knees.

Western propaganda worked a treat back then. Croatia has been immune from prosecution for a very long time and I doubt any high ranking individual will face justice.

Dragan that is simply not true. The camp you are representing isn't just arguing the Serbian position. It regularly demonises those Serbs advocating a different position. In fact some of the more extreme right wing persuation are more concerned with attacking Serbs they disagree with more than the forces they say is the real enemy. I always thought that patriotism was to look for something good in your own people, not to constantly search for something bad to say.

Again, superficially what you write seems fair, but it isn't. Why? You assume Oric is guilty, well ok I will give you that. At the very least we know he is a criminal, and there is enough evidence showing him to be a war criminal. Yes, an injustice.
And yet you automatically declare Seselj innocent. Why? Simply because he's Serb. How on earth would you know if Seselj has fired a shot in anger or not? Were you with him constantly for years? Its absurd that you make such a claim. But yes ok, you are right about the fact that he was unfairly forced to wait years for his trial. And he volunteered to go to the Hague, he did not have to be apprehended (he was not sent to the Hague by DOS as the liars in SRS like to claim). There is some credit there, but it certainly does not mean he is innocent of all charges against him.

As I've said to you before the truth is not ethnicity specific. The Serb narrative is not the true one (insomuch as one exists, as there are many Serb narratives). Nor is the Croatian narrative true, or the Albanian one. The truth is somewhere in between. All states / ethnic groups have a stake in lying about what happened in the past, have a habit of glossing up the actitivies of 'their' side, or completely avoiding facing responsibility for what happened. It is always somebody elses fault.

Thats not me or the Serbia I represent. The Serbia I represent is ready to lead, to tell the most truth about what happened, including facing up to our own responsiblity while insisting that others face up to theirs.

We have the capital city of the Balkans, we have an academic and intellectual elite. And yes, although you probably hate them, we also have an active NGO sector. Whether you like them or not, that makes us more pluralistic (and with our politicians we certainly need more branches of power). We are ready to tackle the difficult questions. The war is over and its time to show maturity. God knows if we don't do this and lead by example, we can't expect the others to do it.

Who stands to benefit the most if we push this through? Serbs. Why? Because its Serbs that have the most IDP's and refugees that have homes in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. And of course the other people's of former Jug will benefit. It will bring peace to the innocent who suffered and repair relations.

If Serbia acts with dignity and honesty (within reason - we are not here to be saints) I'm willing to bet that the general atmosphere towards Serbs outside Serbia will be improved.

You will probably be familiar with Serbs that never sympathised with Jugoslavija and did not defend against its demise. They forgot something, its wasn't Tito or the Communists they were getting revenge on. No, it was Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo that paid the price for the collapse of Jugoslavija.

Surely we have a moral imperative to help these people, as those people lost the most. By persuing a hard line position we make their lives much more difficult and the lives of all Serbian citizens harder.

Dragan, a war crime is a war crime no matter who commits it.

If you would agree on principles rather than supporting the concept of favouring one's ethnic group above others, we would agree upon things much more. Thats the fundamental difference.

For me its always a question of human rights. When it comes down to it we are all the same. Only somebody who leads a very sheltered life (or an extreme right winger) believes otherwise.

If one does know that in the end we are all the same, then it is pointless pretending to believe in a 'us' first policy. We are all equally deserving, or equally undeserving...

A war crime is indeed a war crime bganon, so I am sure you will agree that while Naser Oric is walking freely after having bragged about comitting disgusting war crimes, and Vojislav Seselj, who has never taken part or even fired a shot during the war, is STILL at the Hague after SIX years waiting a decision is not fair, and it is blatantly anti-Serbian, to say the least.
All that we, I mean the patriotic camp, are advocating is that Serbia be treated fairly by the world - that Serbs be given the same right to self determination that all others have been given, that international law is respected and not selective, that the truth about so called 'massacres' and hoaxes like Racak are uncovered, that the liars who used this anti-Serb propoganda to illegally bomb a country for 78 days are brought to justice, and that Serbia is shown the respect she deserves. In short, we just want the truth, and the truth happens to be on Serbia's side. If there is truth, there will be justice.

(Rote Kapelle, 5 June 2009 01:14)
-- Serbian leaders worried too much of themselves but not the people.
---

Not just Serbian politicians. All of them! Croatian, Bosnian, all. All of them wanted to show the world what "big men" they are while poor honest innocent people died for nothing.

SinCity 'they failed in their initial attempts...' to do what exactly?

Are you trying to suggest that Serbs of Krajina were trying to take over the whole of Croatia? Thats an even more extreme position than that of HDZ at that time.

No civilian 'earns' the right to be terrorised, ethnically cleansed or have their houses burned down.

You obviously are not a supporter of human rights as you would rather blame those that had these rights taken away.

And how easy would it be to ignorantly say that all Croats got what they deserved when they broke away from Jugoslavija?

Yeah they knew what was going to happen so they have only got themselves to blame right?

Two days they knew in advance?

And what exactly could they have done in those two days?

Attacks Slavonia and spread the war. Defend territory far away from Serbia.

The simple facgt is Serbia wouldn't attack Croatia dirtectly as it would do it if Croatia attacked serbia -- something that would never happen.

The support Serbia gace to the Serbs in Croatia wasn't indirect and was indirect. They tolerated weapons smuggling, pressurizing refugees and Krajina and Bosnian Serbs were doing out of fear that their respective populations in Serbia would try to topple Slobo if they didn't.

Anyways. Slobo has nothing to do with Krajina's fall the Krajina Serb leadership does.
1. They were the ones who rejected all attempts to make a peace deal.
2. They continued this knowing as early as 92 that Slobo wouldn't help them [by 94 they knew that the Bosnian Serbs wouldn't help them].

They're collapse was inevitable. Their were what 300,000 people in most at Krajina and Croatia attacked with 150,000 troops and irregulars.

Again not much Serbia could have dopne even if the leadership in Serbnia could have done something.

"time run out for the Serbs to do the right thing it will also run out in Bosnia for the Serbs."
Lenard

Keep telling your little children about those fairytale stories. Republica Srpska is here to stay. Nobody wants more muslim states in a Christian Europe. You wanted an independent Bosna. You got a wellfare state and a dependent federation with the croats. This was a great deal for the muslims. So many dead and only control of 29 % of the territrory.
Long live RS!

Gojko, Yaroslav (apologies for behaving like a preacher with a sermon) again the truth lies between your beliefs. Both Belgrade, Knin and Zagreb were to blame for what happened to the Serb population of Croatia. The only real question to (dis)agree on is who was to blame the most. I tend to blame Belgrade and Zagreb more as they are bigger and had more control over the situation. Knin was reacting to Belgrade and Zagreb and making poor decisions. Belgrade was busy manipulating the leadership of Knin, while Sloba and Franjo was thinking how Knin could be used.

As for what Tadic can do about Storm in retrospect, well his leverage isn't strong. Our international standing is not high and (I don't agree with it but this is international relations) we can only fight one large diplomatic battle at a time.
If Kosovo was settled I could imagine that Serbia would be able to apply much more effective pressure on Croatia. Until then the only recourse we have is official worded intentions and using international reports to put pressure on the EU or Hague to put pressure on Croatia. And yes, if an apology helps we can spare the dignity of the state president - if it gives any direct / indirect benefit to Croatian Serbs.

Remember this mess was Milosevic's legacy. The current government is not a puppet, its is living with the consequences of inheriting a very, very bad starting position which Milosevic put us in.

That doesn't give the current government a free pass though.

Croatia's Serbs have only themselves to blame. They were manipulated by Milosevic and Serbia from the start to commence a war in the effort to destory and cripple Croatia.

They failed in their initial military attempts that led to nothing but a stalemate that would lead to an inevitable war later with Croatia who was determined to regain its rightful territory.

Milosevic and Serbia abandoned them when it came to the crunch, when they realised they were being stretched militarily in Bosnia.

If the Croatian Serbs accepted one of the many peace plans offered then they would all still be there today enjoying prosperity in Croatia.

At least the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia used their brains and accepted peaceful integration back into Croatia. This showed how things should have been from the start. Especially considering that Eastern Slavonia takes in the city of Vukovar and a region which saw the hideous brutality of Serbian war crimes in Croatia.

As far as most Croats are concerned, "Operation Storm" was easily justified. Those that supported "Krajina" earned their destinies .....

In Serbia there must be some people who can stand above their own ambitions and consolidate the nation against enemies. If only Tadic were less Atlantic minded ! To tell the truth I can merely imagine how he can effectively manage with the neighboring leaders trained at the same cabinets … The Storm was damn successful not so mush because it was arranged by Biden’s party but because Serbs were so disintegrated .
Like 99% of the politicians Serbian leaders worried too much of themselves but not the people. Consolidation is the first step to restore justice on all 3 fronts.

SinCity obviously does not understand the lasting fear the genocidal campaign of the Ustashe was to leave burned into the consciousness of the Serbian population of Croatia for generations to come.

I’ve seen the Neo-Ustashe graffiti in Krajina on all the burned out houses.

If your grandfather’s generation was slaughtered in Death Camps, you’d pick up a gun to defend your family too when Ustashe revisionists like Tudjman came to power. I’ve read his books and they are some of the most frightening things to come out of the Balkans in recent times.

Can you imagine the reaction if something similar happened with Neo-Nazi’s in Germany and they had a significant Jewish population still? Would you expect them to lay down like sheep for slaughter?

Had Tudjman not been insane and a criminal of the highest order (like Milosevic) then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

The Serbs of Krajina had every right to be extremely frightened, and Operation Storm proves beyond a doubt that those fears were 100% justified.

"Mike, with all due respect I don't understand your point."
Zoran

What I tried to say was that Milosevic needed the army and the police to keep him in office rather that to put it where it should be, protecting the Serb population in Krajina/Bosnia and Kosovo. Milosevic is a traitor for giving up on his own people.

bganon Yaroslav,

Milosevic is more to blame than anybody. ! Slabo wanted to keep "Jugoslavia" and instigated the wars in Bosnia, RSK, etc, but really wanted a greater Serbia. That is why Slovenia was let be.

Yaroslav,

Belgrade promised them nothing? Keep rewriting history out of your Belgrade head. Whose tanks came through Knin defending Serbs. Farmers from Dalmatia? Get real! RSK had tanks, a trained army, amunition, etc..? I don't think so!

Food and shelter for 15 plus years! Thats good! Refugees in the countries I mentioned have homes and cars. That is certainly treating them like crap right? Serbia has not put enough pressure on Croatia for refugees. I didnt even mention the DISCRIMINATION RSK Serbs received from their "Serbian brothers" in Serbia.

That is why Albanians want their own country and Crna Gora have theirs as well. Serbia will turn their back on them for their own good.


My friend I can tell you are not from that region and you will never understand!

Serbs fron RSK should have listened to Jovan Raskovic and not followed Belgrades words. Too late for that.

You have posters threatening to cut funds to their "brothers" for a war they started and lives they ruined throughout Jugo!

Viva Serbia?

bganon,

you said-

"As for what Tadic can do about Storm in retrospect, well his leverage isn't strong. Our international standing is not high and (I don't agree with it but this is international relations) we can only fight one large diplomatic battle at a time."

Kosovo has been a battle not since the illegal declaration but for almost a century. Belgrade supports Kosovo becuase its their "heartland". Belgrade does put pressure on Croatia because they don't care. They view Serbs from there as more Croatian than Serbian. They feel like they never really lost anything but tried to gain something. That of course is not true. RSK is a battle they had a better chance winning "diplomatically" right after Operation Storm.

But Kosovo is Serbia right? Oh well. Time to move forward! Like you said it is Milosevic's mess for todays people!

Lenard did it occur to you why you want to talk about Bosnia, when this is about Operation Storm?

For somebody willing to lecture the internationals on all issues and somebody who is ready to condemn Republika Sprska, you are very silent on Croatian crimes.

You still haven't answered the key question (for Croatia) - it was your country that wanted to break up Jugoslavija, presumably with your support. It was your country which formed an alliance with the US, joined NATO integration and promised an EU policy.

You and Croatia don't want Jugoslavija any more (ok some of you never wanted Jugoslavija, but even so), you don't want the EU any more. Do you have an idea what you do want?

Or you just want to be a free (with your politicians that won't be easy), independent (yeah right, give me a small country and I'll give you a dependent country) Croatia in some romantic dream?

In short are you not just another one of those confused balkanists who wants to criticise everybody else, but to avoid taking a look in the mirror?

I'm not saying you are a bad person, just that you are showing as many symptoms of the Balkan 'problem' as anybody here.

We knew that. Milosevic only sent some paramilitaries because he it as a lost cause.

To say more "good" about Slobodan Milosevic: he was a well-known hater of almost everything Russian - but at the same time he was expecting some serious help from Russia. Not help for Serbia, but help for him to keep him in power.

Yaroslav,

What are you talking about? RSK leaders are to blame?
RSK leaders were promised support from Slabo to do as they please as they would have gotten their "own land" with the support from Belgrade.
Serbs from Krajina were given BROKEN promises from Belgrade!

Belgrade betrayed Serbs from Croatia and that will never be forgotten. Belgrade left Serbs from Croatia out to dry and are now doing the same to Kosovo Serbs.

The USA, Germany, Australia, etc are also doing a million times better taking care of refugees from that area as well. Belgrade should be ashamed of its self!

Mr. Tadic and his puppet govt have not put any pressure on Croatia for Operation Storm. As Slabo and Belgrade brokered this deal with Croatia and the USA.

is this the same Lazarevic that Milosevic in his cross examination, proved was a liar.You can see this on youtube.Milosevic made a fool out of him and showed him to be what he was a stooge.God bless Serbia and our holy church.

Sin City.
It was not the serbs who started the war in croatia it was the croats backed by their western masters who wanted to smash up Yugoslavia,and when the croats decided to break away they told the serbs if they didn't like it they could lump it, and given the croats record in ww2 they decided to lump it and i don,t blame them

Gojko,

When did Slobo or ant member of his government specifically say that Serbia would help them. No they interpret the opportunistic statements of a Marxist as support, while he did nothing tangible in the regard.

Serb from Krajina, just like Serbs from Bosnia, interpreted mere statements [generally made years before the war] as signs of unconditional support.

No, Belgrade promised them nothing. They believe Belgrade promised them something when they promised nothing.

Your claim regarding the USA, Germany and Australia is retarded. They don't care about the refugees they just need immigrants to fill lower paying jopbs and who they can treat like crap. The simple fact is Belgrade has provided food and shelter for close to 300,000 Krajina refugees for how years in an extremely depriciated economy. Serbia through out that time was an economy of what $15 billion, god only knows how much keeping the refugees cost. If they are ungrateful like that then Belgrade should cut back on the amounts it gives them.

What kind of pressure. Serbia can't do anything except counter sue Croatia and have Jeremica point out mistreatment of Serbs

Now what the Serbs did in Bosnia has to be rectified of all the heinous crimes they committed justice demands it. I hope they will not placate them selfs with some self justifying excuses before it is to late. Just like in Krajina time run out for the Serbs to do the right thing it will also run out in Bosnia for the Serbs.

Slobodan Lazarevic has his own reason to make fabricated and untrue statements in the Courtroom of the ICTY. Bent Jensen knocked the door of this selfdefined 1995 "Serbian Hero" at approximately 0315hrs. on August the 4th 1995. Bent Jensen asked Slobodan Lazarevic, RSK Liason officer to International Organizations in Topusko, to inform his commander, That the sector, the UN named Sector North, would be attacked same morning and that same Bent Jensen, Head of the ECMM office in Sector North, held the commander of the RSK forces responsible for the security of the civilian population in Sector North.
This is the true story. No more, no less was provided Lazarevic by anybody from the ECMM within Sector North.
ICTY could easily have this information clarified.
ICTY and powerfull forces within the administration of the ICTY - DO NOT WANT the truth to appear in the Court of the ICTY.
Slobodan Lazarevic is an untrustable paid victim of forces he made his idols during a time where he unfortunately became a figure due to his ability to speak English. He is an individual, that likely should undergo investigation for his own and often personal actions while wearing red baret and using blue flashligt on his vehicle in Topusko and surrounding areas.

could be anti-serb propaganda itself, to "unveil" "news" like this.

this needs further investigation, since it is much too early in order to give a statement about Serbia´s position and actions in that particular time-period.

RE: The RSK Leadership dug their own grave

The first leader was of the self declared RSK was Milan Babic who was a nationalist very similar to Karadzic.

Milosevic promptly used his influence to have him replaced by Socialist Milan Martic. Milosevic urged Babic and later Martin to sign an agreement with Croatia which would have guaranteed an autonomous state of RSK within Croatia.

Babic initially refused and Milosevic own man Martic also refused.

The stubborness of the RSK leadership only led to the fait compli, the destruction of RSK as Croatia go stronger through international support.

"As far as most Croats are concerned, "Operation Storm" was easily justified. Those that supported "Krajina" earned their destinies .....
(SinCity, 5 June 2009 05:17)

Are you speaking for most Croatians? Just trying to get a clear picture here. If you are then most Croatians are disgusting for innocent civilians cannot be blamed for anything. It was the women and children who got bombed while trying to flee.

Also, the wounds of WW2 Ustasha crimes are still fresh for a lot of people. Do you and most Croatians honestly believe that Serbs would be comfortable living in a country which still holds those old symbols in high esteem?

We knew that. Milosevic only sent some paramilitaries because he it as a lost cause.

Now what the Serbs did in Bosnia has to be rectified of all the heinous crimes they committed justice demands it. I hope they will not placate them selfs with some self justifying excuses before it is to late. Just like in Krajina time run out for the Serbs to do the right thing it will also run out in Bosnia for the Serbs.

Croatia's Serbs have only themselves to blame. They were manipulated by Milosevic and Serbia from the start to commence a war in the effort to destory and cripple Croatia.

They failed in their initial military attempts that led to nothing but a stalemate that would lead to an inevitable war later with Croatia who was determined to regain its rightful territory.

Milosevic and Serbia abandoned them when it came to the crunch, when they realised they were being stretched militarily in Bosnia.

If the Croatian Serbs accepted one of the many peace plans offered then they would all still be there today enjoying prosperity in Croatia.

At least the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia used their brains and accepted peaceful integration back into Croatia. This showed how things should have been from the start. Especially considering that Eastern Slavonia takes in the city of Vukovar and a region which saw the hideous brutality of Serbian war crimes in Croatia.

As far as most Croats are concerned, "Operation Storm" was easily justified. Those that supported "Krajina" earned their destinies .....

Oh I see, because Lazarevic claims that Serbia knew about storm a couple of days before it began that means the ethnic cleansing of Croatian Serbs was ok?

Silly me. I suppose that, together with the argument that the US sanctioned this attack means it wasn't a war crime at all!

I remember these catastrophic days and the "actions" of Milosevic.
In order to save his position he sold out fellow Serbs in Krajina and if the Bosnian Serbs listened to him there would be no Serbs in Bosnia anymore!
God punished him,he died alone and shamefully in a prison cell.
His guilt was not fighting the wars ,but his inability to defend Serbs and their interests and robbing them.

A war crime is indeed a war crime bganon, so I am sure you will agree that while Naser Oric is walking freely after having bragged about comitting disgusting war crimes, and Vojislav Seselj, who has never taken part or even fired a shot during the war, is STILL at the Hague after SIX years waiting a decision is not fair, and it is blatantly anti-Serbian, to say the least.
All that we, I mean the patriotic camp, are advocating is that Serbia be treated fairly by the world - that Serbs be given the same right to self determination that all others have been given, that international law is respected and not selective, that the truth about so called 'massacres' and hoaxes like Racak are uncovered, that the liars who used this anti-Serb propoganda to illegally bomb a country for 78 days are brought to justice, and that Serbia is shown the respect she deserves. In short, we just want the truth, and the truth happens to be on Serbia's side. If there is truth, there will be justice.

He knew that defending such a large territory in the long run was impossible.
(MikeC, 4 June 2009 14:51)
--
Mike, with all due respect I don't understand your point. If defending such a large area was impossible is Milosevic a traitor for defending it or pulling out?

This is a case of damned if I do and damned if I don't. Serbia and the Serbians were being attacked from every angle by what was then a very power US/Germany/Vatican with Russia on its knees.

Western propaganda worked a treat back then. Croatia has been immune from prosecution for a very long time and I doubt any high ranking individual will face justice.

"time run out for the Serbs to do the right thing it will also run out in Bosnia for the Serbs."
Lenard

Keep telling your little children about those fairytale stories. Republica Srpska is here to stay. Nobody wants more muslim states in a Christian Europe. You wanted an independent Bosna. You got a wellfare state and a dependent federation with the croats. This was a great deal for the muslims. So many dead and only control of 29 % of the territrory.
Long live RS!

Two days they knew in advance?

And what exactly could they have done in those two days?

Attacks Slavonia and spread the war. Defend territory far away from Serbia.

The simple facgt is Serbia wouldn't attack Croatia dirtectly as it would do it if Croatia attacked serbia -- something that would never happen.

The support Serbia gace to the Serbs in Croatia wasn't indirect and was indirect. They tolerated weapons smuggling, pressurizing refugees and Krajina and Bosnian Serbs were doing out of fear that their respective populations in Serbia would try to topple Slobo if they didn't.

Anyways. Slobo has nothing to do with Krajina's fall the Krajina Serb leadership does.
1. They were the ones who rejected all attempts to make a peace deal.
2. They continued this knowing as early as 92 that Slobo wouldn't help them [by 94 they knew that the Bosnian Serbs wouldn't help them].

They're collapse was inevitable. Their were what 300,000 people in most at Krajina and Croatia attacked with 150,000 troops and irregulars.

Again not much Serbia could have dopne even if the leadership in Serbnia could have done something.

SinCity 'they failed in their initial attempts...' to do what exactly?

Are you trying to suggest that Serbs of Krajina were trying to take over the whole of Croatia? Thats an even more extreme position than that of HDZ at that time.

No civilian 'earns' the right to be terrorised, ethnically cleansed or have their houses burned down.

You obviously are not a supporter of human rights as you would rather blame those that had these rights taken away.

And how easy would it be to ignorantly say that all Croats got what they deserved when they broke away from Jugoslavija?

Yeah they knew what was going to happen so they have only got themselves to blame right?

Even if Milosevic knew about this he didn't care. All he was worried about was not to loose power. He knew that defending such a large territory in the long run was impossible. Milosevic was the biggest anti-Serb ever. He should have been tried for treason while he was alive. How anyone likes this man is beyond me.

Yaroslav,

What are you talking about? RSK leaders are to blame?
RSK leaders were promised support from Slabo to do as they please as they would have gotten their "own land" with the support from Belgrade.
Serbs from Krajina were given BROKEN promises from Belgrade!

Belgrade betrayed Serbs from Croatia and that will never be forgotten. Belgrade left Serbs from Croatia out to dry and are now doing the same to Kosovo Serbs.

The USA, Germany, Australia, etc are also doing a million times better taking care of refugees from that area as well. Belgrade should be ashamed of its self!

Mr. Tadic and his puppet govt have not put any pressure on Croatia for Operation Storm. As Slabo and Belgrade brokered this deal with Croatia and the USA.

SinCity obviously does not understand the lasting fear the genocidal campaign of the Ustashe was to leave burned into the consciousness of the Serbian population of Croatia for generations to come.

I’ve seen the Neo-Ustashe graffiti in Krajina on all the burned out houses.

If your grandfather’s generation was slaughtered in Death Camps, you’d pick up a gun to defend your family too when Ustashe revisionists like Tudjman came to power. I’ve read his books and they are some of the most frightening things to come out of the Balkans in recent times.

Can you imagine the reaction if something similar happened with Neo-Nazi’s in Germany and they had a significant Jewish population still? Would you expect them to lay down like sheep for slaughter?

Had Tudjman not been insane and a criminal of the highest order (like Milosevic) then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

The Serbs of Krajina had every right to be extremely frightened, and Operation Storm proves beyond a doubt that those fears were 100% justified.

All part of their terror tactics to ensure the Serbians would flee bganon. I see those actions are a form of ethnic cleansing. Besides we all know what happened to those unfortunate to stay behind.

Sin City.
It was not the serbs who started the war in croatia it was the croats backed by their western masters who wanted to smash up Yugoslavia,and when the croats decided to break away they told the serbs if they didn't like it they could lump it, and given the croats record in ww2 they decided to lump it and i don,t blame them

bganon Yaroslav,

Milosevic is more to blame than anybody. ! Slabo wanted to keep "Jugoslavia" and instigated the wars in Bosnia, RSK, etc, but really wanted a greater Serbia. That is why Slovenia was let be.

Yaroslav,

Belgrade promised them nothing? Keep rewriting history out of your Belgrade head. Whose tanks came through Knin defending Serbs. Farmers from Dalmatia? Get real! RSK had tanks, a trained army, amunition, etc..? I don't think so!

Food and shelter for 15 plus years! Thats good! Refugees in the countries I mentioned have homes and cars. That is certainly treating them like crap right? Serbia has not put enough pressure on Croatia for refugees. I didnt even mention the DISCRIMINATION RSK Serbs received from their "Serbian brothers" in Serbia.

That is why Albanians want their own country and Crna Gora have theirs as well. Serbia will turn their back on them for their own good.


My friend I can tell you are not from that region and you will never understand!

Serbs fron RSK should have listened to Jovan Raskovic and not followed Belgrades words. Too late for that.

You have posters threatening to cut funds to their "brothers" for a war they started and lives they ruined throughout Jugo!

Viva Serbia?

Dragan, a war crime is a war crime no matter who commits it.

If you would agree on principles rather than supporting the concept of favouring one's ethnic group above others, we would agree upon things much more. Thats the fundamental difference.

For me its always a question of human rights. When it comes down to it we are all the same. Only somebody who leads a very sheltered life (or an extreme right winger) believes otherwise.

If one does know that in the end we are all the same, then it is pointless pretending to believe in a 'us' first policy. We are all equally deserving, or equally undeserving...

"Mike, with all due respect I don't understand your point."
Zoran

What I tried to say was that Milosevic needed the army and the police to keep him in office rather that to put it where it should be, protecting the Serb population in Krajina/Bosnia and Kosovo. Milosevic is a traitor for giving up on his own people.

Dragan that is simply not true. The camp you are representing isn't just arguing the Serbian position. It regularly demonises those Serbs advocating a different position. In fact some of the more extreme right wing persuation are more concerned with attacking Serbs they disagree with more than the forces they say is the real enemy. I always thought that patriotism was to look for something good in your own people, not to constantly search for something bad to say.

Again, superficially what you write seems fair, but it isn't. Why? You assume Oric is guilty, well ok I will give you that. At the very least we know he is a criminal, and there is enough evidence showing him to be a war criminal. Yes, an injustice.
And yet you automatically declare Seselj innocent. Why? Simply because he's Serb. How on earth would you know if Seselj has fired a shot in anger or not? Were you with him constantly for years? Its absurd that you make such a claim. But yes ok, you are right about the fact that he was unfairly forced to wait years for his trial. And he volunteered to go to the Hague, he did not have to be apprehended (he was not sent to the Hague by DOS as the liars in SRS like to claim). There is some credit there, but it certainly does not mean he is innocent of all charges against him.

As I've said to you before the truth is not ethnicity specific. The Serb narrative is not the true one (insomuch as one exists, as there are many Serb narratives). Nor is the Croatian narrative true, or the Albanian one. The truth is somewhere in between. All states / ethnic groups have a stake in lying about what happened in the past, have a habit of glossing up the actitivies of 'their' side, or completely avoiding facing responsibility for what happened. It is always somebody elses fault.

Thats not me or the Serbia I represent. The Serbia I represent is ready to lead, to tell the most truth about what happened, including facing up to our own responsiblity while insisting that others face up to theirs.

We have the capital city of the Balkans, we have an academic and intellectual elite. And yes, although you probably hate them, we also have an active NGO sector. Whether you like them or not, that makes us more pluralistic (and with our politicians we certainly need more branches of power). We are ready to tackle the difficult questions. The war is over and its time to show maturity. God knows if we don't do this and lead by example, we can't expect the others to do it.

Who stands to benefit the most if we push this through? Serbs. Why? Because its Serbs that have the most IDP's and refugees that have homes in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo. And of course the other people's of former Jug will benefit. It will bring peace to the innocent who suffered and repair relations.

If Serbia acts with dignity and honesty (within reason - we are not here to be saints) I'm willing to bet that the general atmosphere towards Serbs outside Serbia will be improved.

You will probably be familiar with Serbs that never sympathised with Jugoslavija and did not defend against its demise. They forgot something, its wasn't Tito or the Communists they were getting revenge on. No, it was Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo that paid the price for the collapse of Jugoslavija.

Surely we have a moral imperative to help these people, as those people lost the most. By persuing a hard line position we make their lives much more difficult and the lives of all Serbian citizens harder.

To say more "good" about Slobodan Milosevic: he was a well-known hater of almost everything Russian - but at the same time he was expecting some serious help from Russia. Not help for Serbia, but help for him to keep him in power.

Gojko, Yaroslav (apologies for behaving like a preacher with a sermon) again the truth lies between your beliefs. Both Belgrade, Knin and Zagreb were to blame for what happened to the Serb population of Croatia. The only real question to (dis)agree on is who was to blame the most. I tend to blame Belgrade and Zagreb more as they are bigger and had more control over the situation. Knin was reacting to Belgrade and Zagreb and making poor decisions. Belgrade was busy manipulating the leadership of Knin, while Sloba and Franjo was thinking how Knin could be used.

As for what Tadic can do about Storm in retrospect, well his leverage isn't strong. Our international standing is not high and (I don't agree with it but this is international relations) we can only fight one large diplomatic battle at a time.
If Kosovo was settled I could imagine that Serbia would be able to apply much more effective pressure on Croatia. Until then the only recourse we have is official worded intentions and using international reports to put pressure on the EU or Hague to put pressure on Croatia. And yes, if an apology helps we can spare the dignity of the state president - if it gives any direct / indirect benefit to Croatian Serbs.

Remember this mess was Milosevic's legacy. The current government is not a puppet, its is living with the consequences of inheriting a very, very bad starting position which Milosevic put us in.

That doesn't give the current government a free pass though.

bganon,

you said-

"As for what Tadic can do about Storm in retrospect, well his leverage isn't strong. Our international standing is not high and (I don't agree with it but this is international relations) we can only fight one large diplomatic battle at a time."

Kosovo has been a battle not since the illegal declaration but for almost a century. Belgrade supports Kosovo becuase its their "heartland". Belgrade does put pressure on Croatia because they don't care. They view Serbs from there as more Croatian than Serbian. They feel like they never really lost anything but tried to gain something. That of course is not true. RSK is a battle they had a better chance winning "diplomatically" right after Operation Storm.

But Kosovo is Serbia right? Oh well. Time to move forward! Like you said it is Milosevic's mess for todays people!

is this the same Lazarevic that Milosevic in his cross examination, proved was a liar.You can see this on youtube.Milosevic made a fool out of him and showed him to be what he was a stooge.God bless Serbia and our holy church.

Gojko,

When did Slobo or ant member of his government specifically say that Serbia would help them. No they interpret the opportunistic statements of a Marxist as support, while he did nothing tangible in the regard.

Serb from Krajina, just like Serbs from Bosnia, interpreted mere statements [generally made years before the war] as signs of unconditional support.

No, Belgrade promised them nothing. They believe Belgrade promised them something when they promised nothing.

Your claim regarding the USA, Germany and Australia is retarded. They don't care about the refugees they just need immigrants to fill lower paying jopbs and who they can treat like crap. The simple fact is Belgrade has provided food and shelter for close to 300,000 Krajina refugees for how years in an extremely depriciated economy. Serbia through out that time was an economy of what $15 billion, god only knows how much keeping the refugees cost. If they are ungrateful like that then Belgrade should cut back on the amounts it gives them.

What kind of pressure. Serbia can't do anything except counter sue Croatia and have Jeremica point out mistreatment of Serbs

(Rote Kapelle, 5 June 2009 01:14)
-- Serbian leaders worried too much of themselves but not the people.
---

Not just Serbian politicians. All of them! Croatian, Bosnian, all. All of them wanted to show the world what "big men" they are while poor honest innocent people died for nothing.

could be anti-serb propaganda itself, to "unveil" "news" like this.

this needs further investigation, since it is much too early in order to give a statement about Serbia´s position and actions in that particular time-period.

bganon,
For once I agree with your comment. Go figure.
Cheers!

In Serbia there must be some people who can stand above their own ambitions and consolidate the nation against enemies. If only Tadic were less Atlantic minded ! To tell the truth I can merely imagine how he can effectively manage with the neighboring leaders trained at the same cabinets … The Storm was damn successful not so mush because it was arranged by Biden’s party but because Serbs were so disintegrated .
Like 99% of the politicians Serbian leaders worried too much of themselves but not the people. Consolidation is the first step to restore justice on all 3 fronts.

Lenard did it occur to you why you want to talk about Bosnia, when this is about Operation Storm?

For somebody willing to lecture the internationals on all issues and somebody who is ready to condemn Republika Sprska, you are very silent on Croatian crimes.

You still haven't answered the key question (for Croatia) - it was your country that wanted to break up Jugoslavija, presumably with your support. It was your country which formed an alliance with the US, joined NATO integration and promised an EU policy.

You and Croatia don't want Jugoslavija any more (ok some of you never wanted Jugoslavija, but even so), you don't want the EU any more. Do you have an idea what you do want?

Or you just want to be a free (with your politicians that won't be easy), independent (yeah right, give me a small country and I'll give you a dependent country) Croatia in some romantic dream?

In short are you not just another one of those confused balkanists who wants to criticise everybody else, but to avoid taking a look in the mirror?

I'm not saying you are a bad person, just that you are showing as many symptoms of the Balkan 'problem' as anybody here.

Slobodan Lazarevic has his own reason to make fabricated and untrue statements in the Courtroom of the ICTY. Bent Jensen knocked the door of this selfdefined 1995 "Serbian Hero" at approximately 0315hrs. on August the 4th 1995. Bent Jensen asked Slobodan Lazarevic, RSK Liason officer to International Organizations in Topusko, to inform his commander, That the sector, the UN named Sector North, would be attacked same morning and that same Bent Jensen, Head of the ECMM office in Sector North, held the commander of the RSK forces responsible for the security of the civilian population in Sector North.
This is the true story. No more, no less was provided Lazarevic by anybody from the ECMM within Sector North.
ICTY could easily have this information clarified.
ICTY and powerfull forces within the administration of the ICTY - DO NOT WANT the truth to appear in the Court of the ICTY.
Slobodan Lazarevic is an untrustable paid victim of forces he made his idols during a time where he unfortunately became a figure due to his ability to speak English. He is an individual, that likely should undergo investigation for his own and often personal actions while wearing red baret and using blue flashligt on his vehicle in Topusko and surrounding areas.

RE: The RSK Leadership dug their own grave

The first leader was of the self declared RSK was Milan Babic who was a nationalist very similar to Karadzic.

Milosevic promptly used his influence to have him replaced by Socialist Milan Martic. Milosevic urged Babic and later Martin to sign an agreement with Croatia which would have guaranteed an autonomous state of RSK within Croatia.

Babic initially refused and Milosevic own man Martic also refused.

The stubborness of the RSK leadership only led to the fait compli, the destruction of RSK as Croatia go stronger through international support.

"As far as most Croats are concerned, "Operation Storm" was easily justified. Those that supported "Krajina" earned their destinies .....
(SinCity, 5 June 2009 05:17)

Are you speaking for most Croatians? Just trying to get a clear picture here. If you are then most Croatians are disgusting for innocent civilians cannot be blamed for anything. It was the women and children who got bombed while trying to flee.

Also, the wounds of WW2 Ustasha crimes are still fresh for a lot of people. Do you and most Croatians honestly believe that Serbs would be comfortable living in a country which still holds those old symbols in high esteem?