Being a Serb I still don't see this happenning, it's just wishful thinking. If they do this it will cause anther civil war in macedonia because of the Albos (big surprise).
"I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria."
First of all I would really question the validity of your scholar status, or either you should have mentioned that you are a scholar of engineering. Because a social science scholar status who has to do anything with ancient history of Europe would know that. Even in literature, Shakespeare wrote "Twelfth Night"which is a whole play about Illyria. They have had three wars with the Roman Empire, they were the greatest challengers to them for a very long period.
A few Roman Emperors have had Illyrian origins as well.
There are numerous other works by very famous people in the world.
However, its important to mention that their history is very limited to what we have today because of the continuous great works of others over the centuries to destroy it.
Today the President of Macedonia was in Albania meeting the Albanian president. The media reacted very much as he remained silent and was given some lectures by the president of Albania about the current situation in the Balkans, especially the Kosovo Independence and Albanian membership to NATO.
Why do you Albanians think you're so strong in Macedonia? 25% of the population is not a majority. There may be a lot of you outside our country, but with the rest of our Slavic brothers there is more of us than you. Kosovo was one thing, if the Albanians in Macedonia tried to do what they did in Kosovo it would be their demise. They would lose all support and not only that, but in 2001 the Macedonians were beating the stuffing out of the NLA until NATO jumped in. Next time they might not be there.
And Greeks, stop calling Macedonia "FYROM" or then your country should be called "Former Turkish Territory of Greece". Vardar and Agean Macedonia were all one territory and you know it. Calling us newcomers? I'm sorry I didn't know that 1400 years makes you a newcomer. What does that make Americans then?
bganon:
"Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an
identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own language. The
people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag
is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own,
the national anthem a fudge. We all know it."
Exactly. Kosova is separate only because it cannot be part of
either Serbia or Albania, and its division would be worse than the fudge.
If the K Albanians can gradualy develop a
better stance towards the K Serb minority (as seems to be happening
slowly) and the K Serbs can look after their interests and take part in K
society rather than allowing themselves to be pawns for belgrade, then it
can all eventually work.
But it is, by definition, without its own identity, UNLIKE
Macedonia, where the ethnic Macedonians who the state is built around do
indeed have their own ethnic identity, regardless of what chauvinists in
Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia or Albania may think.
Yes the Albanian minority is very large, but that does not alter the
identity of the Macedonians. The fact that their language is similar to
Bulgarian is no different to the fact that Serbian and Croatian are the
same language, yet who denies two different ethnic identities (and indeed
three, the Bosniaks).
So a Macedonian leader made a mistake. So express your opinions about the
mistake. But frankly, this outpouring of hatred against Macedonia and
Macedonians just because of this mistake is amazing. Love how you insist
on calling the state "FYROM", ie the ridiculous name given it by primitive
Alexander-obsessed Greek nationalists, rather than its chosen name,
Republic of Macedonia. And love the threats to join Greece in vetoing and
blockading Macedonia and join Bulgaria in partitioning it. All because of
a diplomatic slight. For shame.
The Macedonians have their own anti-Albanian nutters and their own bizarre
Alexander obsessions, but this does not make them any worse than any
neighbouring people
johnny:
"Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats." I'm not sure what threats you've percieved from my posting, but I will refrain. At the end threats aren't appropriate in either situation. It would have been a better posed question to say "Why is it ok for you to make threats and not us?": such a phrased question contains the sub sentence of "Why is it ok for you to make threats", to which the answer should always be, 'it's not', however your question makes the assumption that threat making is ok in certain circumstances. That is never appropriate, and simply because it is done by some peoples the world over does not excuse anyone from this inappropriate behaviour. Yet again clarifying my point.
I fully understand that Ancient Macedonia is/was Greece. That is the point. Along with the information Amer provided, 'Illyria being contemporary to Greece', again is compounding the point. When Illyria existed it was part of a greater union. Either Greece or Rome. A nation buried between the two largest European based empires ever (British empire focused on the world as a whole and didn't control much of Europe) that has until recently been buried from the light of day, and needed to be 'rediscovered' as a historical society, cannot have been anything other than a tribe of one of the larger empires. That is okay, and it is the history, but making more out of it is disproportionate chest thumping.
I think some people in Skopje forget that there are over 7 Million Albanians in the Balkans and a total of over 9 Million all over the world.
Skopje should understand that the time when they could treat the Albanians this way are over and a new time is comming.
(Nick KS, 2 June 2009 12:33)
So?? Is 20 millions Kurds on Middle East - but nobody thinkink about them. They have only some autonomy in Iraq, but in Turkey 12 millions Kurds have nothing.
‘Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje’.
If this is really a reason to revoke the decision of recognizing Kosovo then it will really give credit to Macedonia in the int. affairs. But, as long as Macedonia is heading towards NATO and EU, this can’t happen even in a dream.
To be honest, I really don’t understand some here who immediately jump into some conclusions or scenarios after having read some news, which after all it’s only some media speculation.
All in all, the whole this situation goes very much into Serbia’s current policy favours. Both, Kosovo and Macedonia are losers. On the other side, I see great pressure from Serbia on the Macedonian side, what is a clear indicator that Serbia (and Macedonia also) with their current policies are far from joining EU. One can not join only by giving some declarations that we want to join, it takes some deep changes, reforms, and most important good neighborly relations.
”This is according to an article in today's Albanian language daily Koha Ditore”.
It’s kind of funny how pro Serb posters believe the “yellow pages” of Kosovo, as they like to call Kosovo media in every occasion when there is some news that doesn’t suit their ‘cause’.
Zoran, # 43, here is a link to Czech embassy in Prishtina, http://www.mzv.cz/pristina, so I guess you don’t have very reliable sources.
Let's suppose that this is true. It seems after reading all these comments that there is no integrity in the country of FYROM. Even if the Albanian population is 25% it is still a quite big analogy.. The so called Republic of "Macedonia" experimental country (made in USA) is causing problems to everybody around (it seems that they have studied a bit of Tito). And this is the reason of its existance. To cause problems. It is part of the strategy of USA "DIVIDE AND CONQUER". They want Balkan nations to be apart so they can bully us around. Our region is very strategic and they want control. I am very dissapointed by some Serbian people who call this country "Macedonia".
Scary reaction from the majority of the K-albanian camp here to what is essentially speculation - barring any official announcement from FYROM.
Threats of violence, intimidation & partition.
One hopes that these views are only the result of immaturity & ignorance.
Regarding the inflated statistics K-albanians like to use, wrote about this a couple of days ago. But seeing as the same figures have been popping-up here (600,000+, 30%, 33%, 40% etc), will summarise again.
2002 census lists 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17% then. Projected population for July 2009 is 2,066,718.
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this population increase is ALL albanian, then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is 26.77%.
And all of these figures are from the CIA World Factbook on Macedonia.
Will not stop those seeking to exaggerate albanian influence in places like FYROM of course by using grossly inflated statistics.. but put's the comments of those who like to use such in their proper context - ie: in the rubbish bin.
Say the words rescind or recognize before Kosovo and the comments come! This is a great way for local newspapers to make $$$. Atleast these type of headings help the economy in some sort of way!
I love it when the people who live in Serbian immigrant communities in the West think they have an inside track on the sentiments of the whole country.
Lyra, Macedonia is Greek; end of story. There were no slavs in Macedonia; and now there's slavs in that part of the Balkans. Hence they're new comers. The rest where Albanians still live, are natives.
Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats.
P.S Albania as a state has the right retaliate if Macedonia does anything stupid. That is add its veto to NATO to that of Greece in case of FYROM. Also close our ports that FYROM now uses for free.
That said you can't stop people's thoughts. They think FYROM will have trouble. That's their opinion.
Macedonia will never rescind the Kosovo recognition. They know the consequences and repercussions if they even think about such an idea. I don't want to go any further than that :)
No,it won't!!! Because they know very well that their territorial integrity and their very existence as a state it depends on the Albanian factor. By recognizing Kosovo they nailed the final nail on the coffin of Greater Albania and secured their border not against a status less province, but against a state. Any revoking of the recognition it will mean that their own borders aren't secured. Not to mention that Albania (and Greece also may) retaliate with revocation of the recognition of Macedonia not only as a state, but also it own borders.
How they will react if they have 2 or 3 out of their 5 neighbors not recognising the existence of its own state?
Macedonians weren't stupid when they decided to "side" with Kosovo by recognising it. They secured the borders of their own state.
'Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.'
The admission of ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Here's a link to The Illyrians by John Wilkes (in the series The Peoples of Europe):http://books.google.com/books?id=iOWS4i5X9fgC&dq=illyrians&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9Pb5bbVqkq&sig=6dy1FmaQZg1k9NKyq0-jPwaHhdU&hl=en&ei=b3YkSsCWEM6Ytgelt9XIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#PPP1,M1
Or just search on "The Illyrians" and look for books.google.com/books......
Unfortunately, google doesn't give you the entire book, but it's a start.
(BTW, the Illyrians were contemporaries of the Greeks and Macedonians, to clear up one point.)
macedonians will once have to ask themselves how far will they bow in serving the interests of albanians in their own country;how much will they tolerate the situation of being a majority undermined by minority... macedonia is a potential future kosovo, all the more so as the US are firmly behind the albanians; that's why macedonia's biggest mistake, as well as montenegro's, was to recognize kosovo, and open the doors to the same kind of scenarios on the home terrain...
quite interesting, ...is that really an Albanian writing about prematurity here?
I mean, who is showing all symptoms of it here in this forum after all?
who is boasting about birth-rates and "friendship" with the US?
and last but not least, to Goran, who wrote about "independence" without quotation marks...: Gorane, independence is for KiM is mere illusion, you should know that.
the moment the US-occupiers leave southern Serbia, that moment some kids in here will see what their "independence" is really about.
I love when these premature speculations pop up and all the sudden everyone jumps up!!! All the sudden the go away and in the meantime kosova gets new recognitions, then another spuculation pops up like "Turkey is going to rescind Kosovo recognition"......desperate times call fir desperate measures!
Who cares about these states and their Kosovo recognitions...I mean after all you have resolution 1244 and Russia the apple who's bright red and juicy looking from the outside but rotten inside.
Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
De-recognition by Hungary is not on the table since - according increasing number of our local Nobel Price winners and brain surgeons - why would Magyar Gárda stop marching at Zemun and not at Prizren or in outskirts of Tokyo?
Explanation.
Some of our "friends" frmly believe, the current situation is only for the time being - till Kosovo won't become as "Rigómezö" a Hungarian "gyepü" (unpopulated border-territory for securing the wholeness of Great Hungary). My guess is, the methods (i.e. how to make Kosovo unpopulated) are suggested to be borrowed from Arrow-Cross.
Under normal circumstances this would be as serious as "Srbija do Tokija" - but if things go "well", after elections next year these geniuses could even sneak-in into parliament.
Why? Because of endless hunger for might of the likely future PM (Viktor Orbán). His "nick" is "mini-duce" for a good reason. He desires to take on the democracy by securing himself for as long as possible - by adopting new laws. This is possible only if he would get a 66.66% majority. If there would be even slightest danger, he won't get the desired 66.66%: he will try to get in the coalition with some really unholy ghosts. Using populist tunes and sometimes even mutually courting with "far right" is not new for V.O. - so I can imagine it to happen.
What to pray for: instead of Kosovo de-recognition, pray for V. Orbán not achieving the magic 66.66% even with the help of "far right". This so-called "absolute victory" is necessary to change the constitution and basic laws.
At this moment V. Orbán does promise, the VAT will be lowered, no property tax, lavish benefits including the 13th month pension will be re-installed. Since we will eat the cake - but still have it, everything is possible, even Magyar Gárda marching back and forth between Sar Planina and Fujiyama.
And even before the election campaign did kick off, the mass media seem to train itself, how to kiss Orbán's rear side. Of course, the very first thing he will do is to sack the entire TV, radio, etc. and now everyone wants to "secure' the future. I think, the backbone was lost around 1849... :(
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
Canadian:
Say something about active Canadian politicians, another words about Canadian politicians who represent you and me and the rest of us Canadians in Ottawa.
I've watched it live on CBC last year when Canadian then PM Maxime Bernier announced Canada's decision to recognize Kosova as Idependent Country. All MPs were in favor including Bloc Québécois(the political party from Québéc).
I can bet on anything that Canadian Gov, will never even talk about rescind on behalf of Kosova.
Unversity of Calgary(Alberta) has been investing in Prishtina since 2002(on Education Field) and that's just one of the Canada's investments in Kosova.
this is just the beginning wait till the ICJ states that the independence is illegal.Countries will be tripping over themselves to rescind their recognitions.God bless Serbia and our holy church!
Interesting to see if this happens, however interesting in the threats from camp Albania, wake up EU and see this threat from a so called greater Albania.
Many comments on the subject confirm that there is nothing to do with unique case but with strong wish of one nation to create “super” state, threatening neighbor’s territorial integrity, based on racial superiority (according to one comment on the recent article, only Albanian women can give a birth to real men and women). Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
I guess what I find most striking about the majority of the pro-Albanian posts here is the utter hypocrisy and insolence demonstrated. On one hand we have pro-Albanian posters, day after long day claiming the leap-and-bound-like advancements in democracy within their potentially feldgling state. They talk about the freedoms and democratic ideals within the new;y EULEX'd Kosovar Governmental framework. They talk about how it was the Kosovar Albanians that were, and always are, the scapegoats, the trampled on, the peaceful resistance to some external evil.
Now, however, upon the slightest hint of a neighbouring country, a fully recognized international state (name not withstanding), might recall its recognition, the pro-Albanian camp has littered this forum with subversive threat after the next; they've also made outright threats to territorial claims, calling for partioning of yet another soverign state. All of this in the so-called-name of Albanian democracy. It has become ever more evident that the Albanian minorities within it's parent's neighbouring countries have become isolationists, and grand-standing nationalists. They've used all forms of half-baked arguments, as they see them fit their own world view time and again, but the recipricol arguments, applied with the same logic against the pro-Albanian camp and/or movement are consistently ignored or branded "evil" nationalism.
I ask the Democratically minded pro-Albanian posters to rationalize the dismemberment of another democratic nation. If this camp claims the indefinable rights of minorities in democracies, and as such recognizes these rights in their fellow Albanian decendents in whatever country they happen to be in, why not let the peoples of the nation in question, Albanian heritage or not, make the descisions that relate to their own country, without predjudice or bias? Or are all of my fellow posters so blinded by their nationalistic rage and biases that they cannot for a moment allow true democracy to happen unless it is favouring them? That my friends is how democracy works. Not all of the choices are favoured by any one person, but they are favoured in general, each and every one, by the majority of the population, and or government (which is less democratic in principle but in the least contains a flavour of democracy)?
Why is it that Albanians have this overwhelming need to isolate themselves from the rest of the peoples around them if they aren't Albanian? Where is all of this coming from? Why is this camp so visibly aggresive and angered with their neighbours, over and over again? Why the inuendo, why the violent rhetoric? Why more? Why not stop and ask yourselves why? All of this talk about joining EU, removing borders, becoming brothers with Europe, and then out of the otherside of the mouth, more nationalistic, isolationaistic rhetoric, simply ment to further destabalize the region. Is it perhaps because the pro-Albanian camp feels a sense of protection from the Camp of Bonsteel? Does this permanent temporary military base give the impression that whatever acts of aggression and destabalization done in the name of Albanians is fundamentaly ok and will be protected forever? If so, then the farce of peace and democracy has certainly been played on every stage in every village in every Albanian region of eastern Europe, and that is perhaps the greatest shame of all.
I read through the first 55 posts in this forum and was somewhat surprised not to read reference to Illyria. Is that perhaps because possibly Macedonia predates Illyria (I'm sure I'll have one after the next giving me some fantasatic historical reference to this); is it perhaps also possible that Illyria is a province of Ancient Macedonia. The Albanians claim their stewardship of the land because of their historical Illyria predating the Slavic migration to the Balkans, but I wonder how they honestly feel about returning the whole of the Balkans back to Greece or Macedonia as the case may be. Using the Illyrian argument, Ancient Macedonia and the tribes of Ancient Greece were the stewards of the Balkans prior to Illyria's conception.
I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.
"Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes."
Straight talk Peggy? You are right on that. No one can play with Albanians anymore.
I personally do not believe in that headline. That would be suicidal act for Macedonia and I still believe Macedonia is a multiethnic democratic country. I am sparing my comments if I got this wrong.
Regarding the name issue, I was referring to Macedonian Albanians.
I believe Kosovo's government is smart enough to know not to interfere in any way there.
As far as the issue of goodwill, I still believe that it is a very necessary prerequisite for effective negotiations between Serbs and Albanians with long term and stable outcomes. I say that because a lot of people on both sides lost their lives (mostly Albos) and blood is not water. Otherwise, we end up with another Bosnia-style agreement which prevented further bloodshed in the short term, but is clearly not working in the long term.
I have mentioned before that independence may have been a non-starter if Serbian governments had shown more initiative and wisdom in reaching out to Kosovo Albanians (their own citizens after all) in the few years after the war. Instead they focused inwards, let Kosovo be UNMIK's problem and only decided to wake up when status negotiations began with nothing going for them but a UN resolution and arguments on sovereignty. All Albanians had to show to make their point was the destroyed province. Images are a lot more powerful than words. When considering what was at stake, I would have thought those governments would have tried a little harder.
In the end you may still have a point...let the two sides make each other's lives so miserable that they may just decide to agree to something.
As far as armed conflicts go, Kosovo is now an (imperfect) state (I know, I know...). That does mean however that it can't just go and support any crackhead in Macedonia who thinks he should start a war for a "Greater Albania". Albania most definitely will not support any of that nonsense. Prestige, aid and economic interests are at stake and few in the region are in the position to rock the boat that far.
Go Macedonia, go!! Don't think about US pressure, think about Macedonia territorial integrity. If USA can question territorial integrity of Serbia - they can in future question territorial integrity of Macedonia and create "independent state" for "Western Macedoniars" ;)
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
You obviously live in denial my friend, for your information Kosovo was recognized just “barely” in the Canadian parliament it had a great deal of opposition just like every other country that recognized this wanna-be state. Recognition under pressure is really nothing to be proud of. There is not a single country that has recognized any of the other former Legitimate Republics of Yugoslavia under pressure, or truly against their wills, only Kosovo has been recognized under pressure and most of these countries are just waiting for a good excuse to rescind that recognition and the ICJ will give then that excuse,… My dear friend watch the dominos fall one year from today when one-by-one recognition is rescinded, starting from Canada!
"It is well known there are 30 - 40% of Albanians in Macedonia."
L*O*G*I*C
The reason Albanians say there are 30-40% Albanians in Macedonia is to claim the right to 30-40% of its territory. The stability the Americans so deeply desire is far far away. Unfortunately, Balkan troubles have just begun.
HAHAHAHAAHAHA if they can do it so can/will US. only a matter of politics. Since this ploy failed it would be hilarious. Res 1244 stand. Watch now US diplomats scramble for damage control. TOO FUNNY. Kosovo is no independent but an occupied Serbian province.
I really hope that they do it. This would contribute a lot to all Albanians. The end of Ohrid Agreement, in other words the division of Macedonia. It would break up its support from the US where its future as a country would be questioned and its fake existence would be diminished by Bulgaria, Albania and Greece. It would change the Balkans map. It would do a lot of good stuff for Albanians.
I doubt they would do that though, because they are not at a state of nature not to recognize the effects of such a move. It would hurt them so bad.
Its so funny when things get out of Proportion. This is like Chinese Whispers. This is just the opinion of some American analyst called Jonusz Bugajski AKA its speculation. 33% of Macedonia's population would riot. It would all kick off, it'd be political suicide. Besides Kosovo and Macedonia are to engage in diplomatic relations soon. Not to mention that Macedonia is depending on support from the UK and US on it's naming dispute, if this speculation were to come true (which it won't), I don't think it would go down too well for the naming dispute. UK and US would recognise it as FYROM and Macedonia's dreams of membership in EU & NATO will just become even more distant. President Sejdiu rejects all these silly claims.
But then again, none of this is going to happen, its all been blown out of proportion due to the Chinese Whispers affect.
Likewise Ment you always have something measured and thought out to say.
I wrote what I meant in the post above - I am essentially talking about bullying or blackmailing one's neighbours. The Macedonian name issue comes into it of course, but in the end I don't think the opinion of Kosovo on the name will have a great effect either way.
Yes, I agree you diplomatic retaliation is justified, acceptible in international relations if Macedonia were to revoke recognition of Kosovo - although harder to justify in case of a defeat at the ICJ.
However, I don't agree with you that armed conflicts are excluded. I will go further than that, I am almost certain that if Kosovo recognition is rescinded that an Albanian terrorist group will appear in Macedonia. And that it will have support among Albanians in Macedonia / Kosovo and perhaps to a lesser extent in Albania. I take no delight in saying this, but I understand the ethnic politics in the region and feel pretty confident this would happen.
Ment I don't think that one can expect goodwill from a country that has had a part of it ripped away. Serbia's reaction is a normal one in international relations.
And on the other hand Kosovo Albanian goodwill towards Kosovo Serbs isn't great is it?
But goodwill is not a prerequsite for getting a deal, a succesful negotiation.
Still, I take some hope from the fact that the longer it takes to sit down, the more likely when we finally do so that it will be a final and lasting settlement.
By then everybody will be sick to death of the situation and lose the will for bravado and chest beating.
One observation. A casual look at this site over the period of a month to a netural might give the appearance that Serbs are more nationalistic than Albanians. However looking at the reaction to this issue, its obvious that its not the case. Generally speaking what we have here is Serbs on the back foot and many are bitter. The second Albanians feel the same way as we have seen with this issue they are behaving in exactly the same way, with very few exceptions.
Alban Hard line in this case would mean the Serbian reaction to Montenegrin recognition of Kosovo.
In international relations such a thing is pretty normal but Kosovo Albanian leaders and people here accused Serbia of trying to threaten Montenegro, of using Milosevic style politics by withdrawing ambassador etc.
Now compare that to the reaction here of this story. If anything the Albanian reaction is more hard line / nationalistic. I don't remember hearing how Serbs in Montenegro will take over that country, as Albanans are saying about how they will do that to Macedonia.
Look at these insulting statements about Macedonian identity for example. Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own languange. The people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own, the national anthem a fudge. We all know it. So tell me please somebody can Kosovo Albanians lecture Macedonians about not having an identity?
Sorry, but this issue is bringing out a lot of stupidity and primativity and I wish a few Albanian voices would tell their 'own' to hold their tounges.
Still, on the other hand this bloodlust, if it eventually metamorphasises into action will only help Serbia...
Alban as for what is being offered at negotiations. There are no negotiations, so nothing has been offered yet. That is not the primary point, the primary point is to support the beginning of real negotiations.
Things will improve beyond all recognition once we have a deal. Until then its the current countless problem after problem....
ha.. that will be very nice if really happen !?,if so albanians who make up to 40% of population and they right are being discriminated even after the Ohrid Agreement and other side problems with Greeks, I don't think so Macedonia ever will made up in EU or NATO. So GOOD LUCK.. I;m very curious to see what really happen PEACE..
#28 Certainly you could have used something more than a commentary in a tabloid newspaper as a stronger support for your claims of how Canadians are having daily high level discussions about the recognition of Kosovo.
You can find a commentary pro and con for almost any subject in the world.
Commentaries are not considered factual newswriting but individual opinions.
@canada,[for you information]only Shkupi[Skopje]got more then 200.000 Albanians,what about Tetova,Gostivari,Kercova,Ohri,Struga,Dibra and all the west of FYROM,thanks
I wonder whether the leaders of FYROM were listening to Thaci's speech yesterday when he spoke about a tunnel between Albania and Kosovo joining a divided nation (aka Greater Albania). Did they wondered whether that extended into FYROMian territory and whether their recognition will backfire?
Based on the comments here by our Southern citizens (mainly of Albanian ethnicity), that seems to be justified. Recognition seems to be based on pressure and bribes while revoking it brings only threats.
This independence experiment is turning into a disaster. The temporary institutions in Kosovo are only making life miserable for the provincial minorities and are treating them exactly like they claim to be treated by the permanent authorities.
As far as I can tell, the Czech Republic revoking recognition is a done deal. In fact its recognition is not even legal without the appointment of an ambassador - which the president refused to do.
I think our Southern citizens should negotiate. My bets are on the Czech republic being first to revoke recognition.
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
Very funny one! Can you name at least one Canadian Official from Ottawa that is against Kosova's recognition or independence?.
Do you acctually know Peter Worthington?, is that the same guy who wrote false stories on Toronto Sun back in 2004 about Croats and Bosnians? and then later to make an apology because Croats and Bosnians in Canada demanded so!.
Mr. who ever you are: I spend at least 8 hours at work and I've got 46 inch TV there, watching and getting updates on Canadian politics.
Read official Canadian interviews from Ottawa (House of Commons)on Globe & Mail instead.
One more thing!. Hungary would never rescind its' decision because they have an alliance with Albanians and it's about 600 year old, another words since Skanderbeg time.
My fellow Canadian I didn't mean to offend you but it's different what ordinary people hear on the street/s and it's totally different what's being said inside House of Commons.
Lot of comments here based on a couple of newspaper articles.
So, they don't do politics in Kosovo? And they don't have elections?
BTW, this same Janusz Bugajski was saying only a year ago that 'Macedonians should not feel insecure if the name was changed, especially if in the process they enjoyed the support of Albanians. After joining NATO and the EU there will no threats to Macedonia's survival.'
Meaning: until they're in, they're going to have to be careful.
I like reading your comments even when I disagree with them.
With regard to your comment above...
If you were referring to the Albanians' ultimatum to the Macedonian government to address the name issue and move forward with the NATO and EU integration, I would hardly call it a hardline stand.
I'm willing to bet all Macedonians want this, but the Slavic majority does not seem to have the courage to compromise with Greece, the main obstacle. Maybe an "ultimatum" from the Albos is exactly what the Macedonian government needs in order to make that compromise while possibly saving face by blaming the "disloyal" Albanians for "forcing the government to do it."
As far as Albanians getting tired following the rules... I don't know about that. You may be right, but as you said, that's the nature of the beast. If you put yourself in a position of asking someone else to help you out, be that IMF, another country, an alliance or whatever, naturally you have to play by certain rules. They may be inconvenient but there you go.
This does not affect only the Albanians however. Don't you find it striking that Russia always brings up Kosovo and what great friend of Serbia it is, every time NATO relations or the South Stream or some other business transaction that's not going too well comes up?
With regards to this speculation about the rescinding of recognition, well I think it's just that, speculation. But if Macedonia's government does decide to go ahead with it, then this would be an act of treachery. A retaliation of some kind (political, diplomatic) by the Albanians would be more than a justified reaction. Anyone predicting renewed armed conflicts however, is delusional.
I think Adrian summed up pretty correctly what might follow should something like this take place.
With regard to negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo, well, they would require at least a minimum amount of goodwill as a prerequisite. Since the war ended, all Serbian governments including the present one have displayed anything but that towards the Kosovar Albanians. Starting status negotiations under the present conditions is simply a waste of time and effort.
Peter, you will be surprised to find out that Albanian population in Macedonia is over 25%.
I am not giving numbers and don’t believe that 40% is correct either however it is between the two.
I am not putting here any numbers into military power neither however I don’t believe that any country can afford to have unhappy members in their community (and over 25% unhappy people sound a lot).
Peter, always fear the one that has nothing to loose (remember Kosovo).
The fact remains that Albanians in Macedonia have been deprived of their basic rights during SFRJ and post SFRJ.
Again do not take this as a threat, these are simple facts.
Look at Macedonia Peter, who are its neighbours?
Greece, Bulgaria Albania, Kosovo and Serbia.
We know the Greece-Macedonia issues.
We know about the Macedonia-Bulgaria issues.
With Serbia, Macedonia has different issue. The issue of the inferiority.
Macedonia is afraid of Serbia, that is a fact. Macedonia has and will always be ignored by Serbia.
And as such it will try to stay as far as possible from tight links with it.
Problems with Kosovo and Albania would have been nonexistent if there were not Albanians in Macedonia (a luxury that Serbia does not have in Macedonia – otherwise we would have Republika Srbska of Macedonia) .
So Peter, I do believe that it is Macedonia that looses the most by trying to play the ignorance route.
I highlighted earlier, Macedonia is always annoyed because it is always ignored by Belgrade.
Trying to play the same game with Kosovo does not boil good.
And I am happy to say that our leadership has acted correctly to this political move from Macedonia.
Macedonia played hardball, Kosovo responded back.
The ball is in Macedonian court now Peter.
What will they do with it, that is their choice.
I hope they play a more professional game next time.
Another note Peter, I honestly believe that Macedonia needs Kosovo and Albanian friendship more than Kosovo and Albania need Macedonian friendship.
All the talk of a united Europe or the European way is going no where. It is only brought about by force by self intreset or breaking apart when it is not in their intreset and making it in to their selfish greedy image. While the same rich countries go around securing for them selfs the worlds resources and bringing trouble divisions wars when it suits them to get more leverage in a region. Then pretending to be your good friends and their to help and to fix the problem which more then not they have created. Be careful of the Trojan horses. It is no different for the southern Balkan region yore all ready to bash each other for the greedy rich hypocrites nations of the world. They just have to give the word or a nod and yore at each others throats what a pity.
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
(Master ks, 1 June 2009 13:12)
there is not 600,000 albanians in macedonia, there is about 200,000.
FYROM does no have military hardware. Remember, the Embassies of the Quint are in the Albanian neighborhood in Shkup/Skopje. If FYROM controls the (non) "military hardware", cerainly Albanians control the electricity towards, water pumps, gas& oil industry, and most of the FYROm industry is focused on the Western side.
Please, FYROM is blackmailing the US to no back off from the Greeek lobby in the Congress.
I doubt Macedonia is in a position to do that. Macedonia tries to play hardball, but it always backfires on them. Macedonia has more to loose from it than Kosova itself.
If Macedonia rescinds Kosova's recognition, Albania might as well rescind recognizing it as "Republic of Macedonia", start using FYROM instead and support Greece in the name row. Furthermore, Albania might block Macedonia's free use of Albanian roads and ports, slap visas on Macedonian citizens, allowing in only ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and veto Macedonia's entry in NATO, on top of Greece's veto.
Furthermore, exports in Kosova, that account for nearly 300 million a year, will be blocked, as well as trade with Albania. And now with the Kosova-Albania highway being finished, Kosova doesn't really need Macedonia all that much for foreign trade.
And all this, not even mentioning ethnic unrest that will certainly follow such a decision, and deterioration of relations with US and EU.
Of all the countries that could possibly rescind recognition, Macedonia is in the least position to actually do so.
Just as I thought. Numerous comments about threats to Macedonian sovereignity. Unfortunately these are empty threats. Albanians have no Milosevic to blame and should you start trouble you will be in even greater trouble. You don't actually think anyone besides Albania will support the tearing up of yet another country?
FYROM is in trouble. They are searching for an identity which they can never find. Fortunately, Kosovars do have an identity and do not have this problem. FYROm, to my opinion, should strive for strong relations with Kosovo, as they do not have many friends as their neighbours. Nevertheless, all this news is just a political pressure being ahouldered from one side to the other, to take the first "reconciliatory" step by one or the other. FYROM would lose in this battle definitely, as they have no support on this matter.
Go ahead start another uprising to steal more land that is not yours. But didn't those terorrists learn their lesson when they tried that? Did you forget what happened at Brodec?
Too bad the world public doesn't know who you really are because of american propaganda machine.
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper > http://www.edmontonsun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/06/01/9634216-sun.html
... By the way if Macedonia does rescind so well Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
Why is it whenever Macedonia is mentioned as not cooperating with the Albanians, they threaten to destroy the country or speaking on the EU's behalf with regards to membership, or whatever? The Albanian population of Macedonia is 25%, not 40%, and the Slavs control all the military hardware, so who is scared of the Albanians there?
It is in our interest if Macedonia does that. That would mean dividing in half (with Bulgaria) and in other words that would be a step further to the achievement of the great Albania mission.
I've never laughed so much. Can anyone believe how naiive and arrogant the albanian commentors are on this site? How many of them are claiming that skopje will never reconsider its recognition because of the albanians there? the 600,000 albanians? I'm sorry, but isnt this what the serbs have been trying to show the west all along? So much for the wests "kosovo is a unique case". Its about as unique as a piece of paper. Even the albanians on this site know that its anything BUT unique. but this is just ridiculous!!!! think you can really bully them into recognition because of the amount of people you have there?
Kosovo Je Srbija =)
Even funnier the west thinking that it will bring stability to the region through kosovo independence!
Right on cue. Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes.
This is a chance for Macedonia to make amends to people of reason. They might even get credit for this from Greece, Serbia and Russia. Perhaps they see the writing on the wall. The west is losing power while Russia and China are gaining power. Unlike Albanians, they want to align with the winning side.
All it takes is one country to take back this ridiculous recognition of a province to stard the others thinking.
that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
This is correct, they (FYROM-ians) already did the same game with Taiwan. Skopje did recognize Taiwan first - than it turned out, Mainland Chinese pushed stronger than Taiwanese and they switched within few month.
This is correct: it made Skopje object of jokes.
----------------------------
Recognizing one country was never revoked
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
It did happen fairly recently - and precisely with Skopje.
----------------------------
Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
They may do it or may not again. That country is very easy to pressure and blackmail either way. I do not know the circumstances leading them to recognize Kosovo to begin with. If it was American arm-twisting and blackmailing - than blame the Bush administration for doing such things.
As for possible Albanian violence: some posters did threaten with it. Well, that fact alone speaks miles about the nationalism.
The first country to rescind recognition is more likely to be somewhere like the Czech Republic, where there was no popular support for Kosovan UDI in the first place and where the political mood is becoming increasingly Eurosceptic. As for the poster above who sees Greece and Cyprus being encouraged to recognise my Macedonia's change of position, dream on.
It's a fact that Macedonia should fear more the "Great Albania" project, than Albanian minorities in the country.
"Delaying a fight you will only make your enemy stronger" - I hope Macedonia has already realised it.
"I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason? "
Define "hard line" first! Asking Serbs to pay for electricity hardly qualifies as "hard line"
And negotiations over what? What is Serbia offering? be specific!!
I'll eat my hat if this happens. Both are puppets with the same puppetmaster - the US. the US will give them both a stern telling off and things will be back to normal.
So, Macedonia might take back its recognition of Kosovo. Wonder how Albanians will take this news? I guess its time for Albanians to make new threats about secession in Macedonia and bring out the thousands of weapons they have hidden just in case "their rights are violated".
To add, Albanians in FYROM have given the "Macedonians" till the end of the year to solve their ridiculous name dispute and this is what's really bothering the Fyrom slavs! They have issues with Bulgaria, Greeks (over "Macedonian") with Serbs over the Church and 30% of FYROM is Albanian. Only the Albanians say we don't care who you are or what you call yourself, jut get in NATO and EU.
If they do this, they will most likely face a blockade from Greece and Albania will not serve as a backup. Only their mother country, Bulgaria might help them at a huge price. Naturally they can kiss EU and NATO goodbye so this is just FYROM slavs bluffing out of desperation for not going anywhere in NATO or EU! With Albanians making 30% of their population, 30% of their army and police they aren't doing anything. if the Albanians boycott the government, FYROM will be even more isolated by Europe!
We will dump FYROM and get Greek and Cyprus recognition for Kosova in return!
Albanians have always accused Belgrade of pursuing a hard line concerned with its defence of Kosovo. This includes accusation that the current Serbian administration is the same as Milosevic minus war. Serbia was accused of trying to threaten Montenegro with diplomacy etc.
With the recent problem(s) between Kosovo Albanian leaders and Macedonian state we saw a hard line adopted and supported by the Albanian camp. People seem to enjoy administering 'punishment' and supporting some kind of national programme, even at the expense of others. However, is it wise? I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason?
On the story itself I think its unlikely that Macedonia would rescind Kosovo recognition without a good 'excuse'. That excuse though would be provided by a decision from ICJ. And it is a very dangerous prospect, were Macedonia to rescind recognition Montenegro could easily follow suit.
I know the Albanian camp is probably sick and tired of following everybody elses rules / orders but that is the nature of the best. You will have to carry on doing what you are told for many years and not rock the boat if you want to see your dream realised. Its not over and as you know the north of Kosovo is another issue.
I genuinely believe the only way out of this is direct negotiation. That way both Kosovo Albanians and Serbs will be able to lift a weight from our respective necks.
Macedonia needs european's and america's support for Euro-Atlantic integretion and for the Name dispute with Greece.
It is Macedonia's interest not to do so.
In that case let them rescind their own existence. By the way for those who are not familiar; Macedonians would never recognize Kosovo without a pressure and fear by more than 40 % Albanian inhabitants in Macedonia. So, this would be a message to our tiny Macedonian neighbor.
Shkupi(Skopje) would rescind Kosova's recognition but question is: can Macedonia afford such decision knowing that they're in greatest trouble ever?. According to Greek government the word Macedonia doesn't exist outside greek borders.
Macedonia should try and make friends in the region.. but hey it's up to them, at the end it's like"who cares" what Macedonia says.
Intelegence and Stupidity don't have borders.
SKOPJE -- Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje.
If thsi would happened , that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world. Recognizing one country was never revoked, but breaking diplomatic relations it has happened and will continue to happened. Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
Well I certainly was not expecting FYROM to be the first state to rescind recognition, since they have so many albanians living there, but if they do then great! Come one, come all!!
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
So, Macedonia might take back its recognition of Kosovo. Wonder how Albanians will take this news? I guess its time for Albanians to make new threats about secession in Macedonia and bring out the thousands of weapons they have hidden just in case "their rights are violated".
Well I certainly was not expecting FYROM to be the first state to rescind recognition, since they have so many albanians living there, but if they do then great! Come one, come all!!
Right on cue. Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes.
This is a chance for Macedonia to make amends to people of reason. They might even get credit for this from Greece, Serbia and Russia. Perhaps they see the writing on the wall. The west is losing power while Russia and China are gaining power. Unlike Albanians, they want to align with the winning side.
All it takes is one country to take back this ridiculous recognition of a province to stard the others thinking.
Why is it whenever Macedonia is mentioned as not cooperating with the Albanians, they threaten to destroy the country or speaking on the EU's behalf with regards to membership, or whatever? The Albanian population of Macedonia is 25%, not 40%, and the Slavs control all the military hardware, so who is scared of the Albanians there?
I've never laughed so much. Can anyone believe how naiive and arrogant the albanian commentors are on this site? How many of them are claiming that skopje will never reconsider its recognition because of the albanians there? the 600,000 albanians? I'm sorry, but isnt this what the serbs have been trying to show the west all along? So much for the wests "kosovo is a unique case". Its about as unique as a piece of paper. Even the albanians on this site know that its anything BUT unique. but this is just ridiculous!!!! think you can really bully them into recognition because of the amount of people you have there?
Kosovo Je Srbija =)
Even funnier the west thinking that it will bring stability to the region through kosovo independence!
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper > http://www.edmontonsun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/06/01/9634216-sun.html
... By the way if Macedonia does rescind so well Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
I'll eat my hat if this happens. Both are puppets with the same puppetmaster - the US. the US will give them both a stern telling off and things will be back to normal.
It's a fact that Macedonia should fear more the "Great Albania" project, than Albanian minorities in the country.
"Delaying a fight you will only make your enemy stronger" - I hope Macedonia has already realised it.
The first country to rescind recognition is more likely to be somewhere like the Czech Republic, where there was no popular support for Kosovan UDI in the first place and where the political mood is becoming increasingly Eurosceptic. As for the poster above who sees Greece and Cyprus being encouraged to recognise my Macedonia's change of position, dream on.
Albanians have always accused Belgrade of pursuing a hard line concerned with its defence of Kosovo. This includes accusation that the current Serbian administration is the same as Milosevic minus war. Serbia was accused of trying to threaten Montenegro with diplomacy etc.
With the recent problem(s) between Kosovo Albanian leaders and Macedonian state we saw a hard line adopted and supported by the Albanian camp. People seem to enjoy administering 'punishment' and supporting some kind of national programme, even at the expense of others. However, is it wise? I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason?
On the story itself I think its unlikely that Macedonia would rescind Kosovo recognition without a good 'excuse'. That excuse though would be provided by a decision from ICJ. And it is a very dangerous prospect, were Macedonia to rescind recognition Montenegro could easily follow suit.
I know the Albanian camp is probably sick and tired of following everybody elses rules / orders but that is the nature of the best. You will have to carry on doing what you are told for many years and not rock the boat if you want to see your dream realised. Its not over and as you know the north of Kosovo is another issue.
I genuinely believe the only way out of this is direct negotiation. That way both Kosovo Albanians and Serbs will be able to lift a weight from our respective necks.
that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
This is correct, they (FYROM-ians) already did the same game with Taiwan. Skopje did recognize Taiwan first - than it turned out, Mainland Chinese pushed stronger than Taiwanese and they switched within few month.
This is correct: it made Skopje object of jokes.
----------------------------
Recognizing one country was never revoked
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
It did happen fairly recently - and precisely with Skopje.
----------------------------
Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
They may do it or may not again. That country is very easy to pressure and blackmail either way. I do not know the circumstances leading them to recognize Kosovo to begin with. If it was American arm-twisting and blackmailing - than blame the Bush administration for doing such things.
As for possible Albanian violence: some posters did threaten with it. Well, that fact alone speaks miles about the nationalism.
Just as I thought. Numerous comments about threats to Macedonian sovereignity. Unfortunately these are empty threats. Albanians have no Milosevic to blame and should you start trouble you will be in even greater trouble. You don't actually think anyone besides Albania will support the tearing up of yet another country?
Go ahead start another uprising to steal more land that is not yours. But didn't those terorrists learn their lesson when they tried that? Did you forget what happened at Brodec?
Too bad the world public doesn't know who you really are because of american propaganda machine.
I guess what I find most striking about the majority of the pro-Albanian posts here is the utter hypocrisy and insolence demonstrated. On one hand we have pro-Albanian posters, day after long day claiming the leap-and-bound-like advancements in democracy within their potentially feldgling state. They talk about the freedoms and democratic ideals within the new;y EULEX'd Kosovar Governmental framework. They talk about how it was the Kosovar Albanians that were, and always are, the scapegoats, the trampled on, the peaceful resistance to some external evil.
Now, however, upon the slightest hint of a neighbouring country, a fully recognized international state (name not withstanding), might recall its recognition, the pro-Albanian camp has littered this forum with subversive threat after the next; they've also made outright threats to territorial claims, calling for partioning of yet another soverign state. All of this in the so-called-name of Albanian democracy. It has become ever more evident that the Albanian minorities within it's parent's neighbouring countries have become isolationists, and grand-standing nationalists. They've used all forms of half-baked arguments, as they see them fit their own world view time and again, but the recipricol arguments, applied with the same logic against the pro-Albanian camp and/or movement are consistently ignored or branded "evil" nationalism.
I ask the Democratically minded pro-Albanian posters to rationalize the dismemberment of another democratic nation. If this camp claims the indefinable rights of minorities in democracies, and as such recognizes these rights in their fellow Albanian decendents in whatever country they happen to be in, why not let the peoples of the nation in question, Albanian heritage or not, make the descisions that relate to their own country, without predjudice or bias? Or are all of my fellow posters so blinded by their nationalistic rage and biases that they cannot for a moment allow true democracy to happen unless it is favouring them? That my friends is how democracy works. Not all of the choices are favoured by any one person, but they are favoured in general, each and every one, by the majority of the population, and or government (which is less democratic in principle but in the least contains a flavour of democracy)?
Why is it that Albanians have this overwhelming need to isolate themselves from the rest of the peoples around them if they aren't Albanian? Where is all of this coming from? Why is this camp so visibly aggresive and angered with their neighbours, over and over again? Why the inuendo, why the violent rhetoric? Why more? Why not stop and ask yourselves why? All of this talk about joining EU, removing borders, becoming brothers with Europe, and then out of the otherside of the mouth, more nationalistic, isolationaistic rhetoric, simply ment to further destabalize the region. Is it perhaps because the pro-Albanian camp feels a sense of protection from the Camp of Bonsteel? Does this permanent temporary military base give the impression that whatever acts of aggression and destabalization done in the name of Albanians is fundamentaly ok and will be protected forever? If so, then the farce of peace and democracy has certainly been played on every stage in every village in every Albanian region of eastern Europe, and that is perhaps the greatest shame of all.
I read through the first 55 posts in this forum and was somewhat surprised not to read reference to Illyria. Is that perhaps because possibly Macedonia predates Illyria (I'm sure I'll have one after the next giving me some fantasatic historical reference to this); is it perhaps also possible that Illyria is a province of Ancient Macedonia. The Albanians claim their stewardship of the land because of their historical Illyria predating the Slavic migration to the Balkans, but I wonder how they honestly feel about returning the whole of the Balkans back to Greece or Macedonia as the case may be. Using the Illyrian argument, Ancient Macedonia and the tribes of Ancient Greece were the stewards of the Balkans prior to Illyria's conception.
I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.
Macedonia needs european's and america's support for Euro-Atlantic integretion and for the Name dispute with Greece.
It is Macedonia's interest not to do so.
Likewise Ment you always have something measured and thought out to say.
I wrote what I meant in the post above - I am essentially talking about bullying or blackmailing one's neighbours. The Macedonian name issue comes into it of course, but in the end I don't think the opinion of Kosovo on the name will have a great effect either way.
Yes, I agree you diplomatic retaliation is justified, acceptible in international relations if Macedonia were to revoke recognition of Kosovo - although harder to justify in case of a defeat at the ICJ.
However, I don't agree with you that armed conflicts are excluded. I will go further than that, I am almost certain that if Kosovo recognition is rescinded that an Albanian terrorist group will appear in Macedonia. And that it will have support among Albanians in Macedonia / Kosovo and perhaps to a lesser extent in Albania. I take no delight in saying this, but I understand the ethnic politics in the region and feel pretty confident this would happen.
Ment I don't think that one can expect goodwill from a country that has had a part of it ripped away. Serbia's reaction is a normal one in international relations.
And on the other hand Kosovo Albanian goodwill towards Kosovo Serbs isn't great is it?
But goodwill is not a prerequsite for getting a deal, a succesful negotiation.
Still, I take some hope from the fact that the longer it takes to sit down, the more likely when we finally do so that it will be a final and lasting settlement.
By then everybody will be sick to death of the situation and lose the will for bravado and chest beating.
One observation. A casual look at this site over the period of a month to a netural might give the appearance that Serbs are more nationalistic than Albanians. However looking at the reaction to this issue, its obvious that its not the case. Generally speaking what we have here is Serbs on the back foot and many are bitter. The second Albanians feel the same way as we have seen with this issue they are behaving in exactly the same way, with very few exceptions.
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
You obviously live in denial my friend, for your information Kosovo was recognized just “barely” in the Canadian parliament it had a great deal of opposition just like every other country that recognized this wanna-be state. Recognition under pressure is really nothing to be proud of. There is not a single country that has recognized any of the other former Legitimate Republics of Yugoslavia under pressure, or truly against their wills, only Kosovo has been recognized under pressure and most of these countries are just waiting for a good excuse to rescind that recognition and the ICJ will give then that excuse,… My dear friend watch the dominos fall one year from today when one-by-one recognition is rescinded, starting from Canada!
To add, Albanians in FYROM have given the "Macedonians" till the end of the year to solve their ridiculous name dispute and this is what's really bothering the Fyrom slavs! They have issues with Bulgaria, Greeks (over "Macedonian") with Serbs over the Church and 30% of FYROM is Albanian. Only the Albanians say we don't care who you are or what you call yourself, jut get in NATO and EU.
If they do this, they will most likely face a blockade from Greece and Albania will not serve as a backup. Only their mother country, Bulgaria might help them at a huge price. Naturally they can kiss EU and NATO goodbye so this is just FYROM slavs bluffing out of desperation for not going anywhere in NATO or EU! With Albanians making 30% of their population, 30% of their army and police they aren't doing anything. if the Albanians boycott the government, FYROM will be even more isolated by Europe!
We will dump FYROM and get Greek and Cyprus recognition for Kosova in return!
Alban Hard line in this case would mean the Serbian reaction to Montenegrin recognition of Kosovo.
In international relations such a thing is pretty normal but Kosovo Albanian leaders and people here accused Serbia of trying to threaten Montenegro, of using Milosevic style politics by withdrawing ambassador etc.
Now compare that to the reaction here of this story. If anything the Albanian reaction is more hard line / nationalistic. I don't remember hearing how Serbs in Montenegro will take over that country, as Albanans are saying about how they will do that to Macedonia.
Look at these insulting statements about Macedonian identity for example. Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own languange. The people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own, the national anthem a fudge. We all know it. So tell me please somebody can Kosovo Albanians lecture Macedonians about not having an identity?
Sorry, but this issue is bringing out a lot of stupidity and primativity and I wish a few Albanian voices would tell their 'own' to hold their tounges.
Still, on the other hand this bloodlust, if it eventually metamorphasises into action will only help Serbia...
Alban as for what is being offered at negotiations. There are no negotiations, so nothing has been offered yet. That is not the primary point, the primary point is to support the beginning of real negotiations.
Things will improve beyond all recognition once we have a deal. Until then its the current countless problem after problem....
Go Macedonia, go!! Don't think about US pressure, think about Macedonia territorial integrity. If USA can question territorial integrity of Serbia - they can in future question territorial integrity of Macedonia and create "independent state" for "Western Macedoniars" ;)
HAHAHAHAAHAHA if they can do it so can/will US. only a matter of politics. Since this ploy failed it would be hilarious. Res 1244 stand. Watch now US diplomats scramble for damage control. TOO FUNNY. Kosovo is no independent but an occupied Serbian province.
this is just the beginning wait till the ICJ states that the independence is illegal.Countries will be tripping over themselves to rescind their recognitions.God bless Serbia and our holy church!
Many comments on the subject confirm that there is nothing to do with unique case but with strong wish of one nation to create “super” state, threatening neighbor’s territorial integrity, based on racial superiority (according to one comment on the recent article, only Albanian women can give a birth to real men and women). Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
In that case let them rescind their own existence. By the way for those who are not familiar; Macedonians would never recognize Kosovo without a pressure and fear by more than 40 % Albanian inhabitants in Macedonia. So, this would be a message to our tiny Macedonian neighbor.
I wonder whether the leaders of FYROM were listening to Thaci's speech yesterday when he spoke about a tunnel between Albania and Kosovo joining a divided nation (aka Greater Albania). Did they wondered whether that extended into FYROMian territory and whether their recognition will backfire?
Based on the comments here by our Southern citizens (mainly of Albanian ethnicity), that seems to be justified. Recognition seems to be based on pressure and bribes while revoking it brings only threats.
This independence experiment is turning into a disaster. The temporary institutions in Kosovo are only making life miserable for the provincial minorities and are treating them exactly like they claim to be treated by the permanent authorities.
As far as I can tell, the Czech Republic revoking recognition is a done deal. In fact its recognition is not even legal without the appointment of an ambassador - which the president refused to do.
I think our Southern citizens should negotiate. My bets are on the Czech republic being first to revoke recognition.
SKOPJE -- Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje.
If thsi would happened , that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world. Recognizing one country was never revoked, but breaking diplomatic relations it has happened and will continue to happened. Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
It is in our interest if Macedonia does that. That would mean dividing in half (with Bulgaria) and in other words that would be a step further to the achievement of the great Albania mission.
"It is well known there are 30 - 40% of Albanians in Macedonia."
L*O*G*I*C
The reason Albanians say there are 30-40% Albanians in Macedonia is to claim the right to 30-40% of its territory. The stability the Americans so deeply desire is far far away. Unfortunately, Balkan troubles have just begun.
Shkupi(Skopje) would rescind Kosova's recognition but question is: can Macedonia afford such decision knowing that they're in greatest trouble ever?. According to Greek government the word Macedonia doesn't exist outside greek borders.
Macedonia should try and make friends in the region.. but hey it's up to them, at the end it's like"who cares" what Macedonia says.
Intelegence and Stupidity don't have borders.
"I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason? "
Define "hard line" first! Asking Serbs to pay for electricity hardly qualifies as "hard line"
And negotiations over what? What is Serbia offering? be specific!!
Interesting to see if this happens, however interesting in the threats from camp Albania, wake up EU and see this threat from a so called greater Albania.
I doubt Macedonia is in a position to do that. Macedonia tries to play hardball, but it always backfires on them. Macedonia has more to loose from it than Kosova itself.
If Macedonia rescinds Kosova's recognition, Albania might as well rescind recognizing it as "Republic of Macedonia", start using FYROM instead and support Greece in the name row. Furthermore, Albania might block Macedonia's free use of Albanian roads and ports, slap visas on Macedonian citizens, allowing in only ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and veto Macedonia's entry in NATO, on top of Greece's veto.
Furthermore, exports in Kosova, that account for nearly 300 million a year, will be blocked, as well as trade with Albania. And now with the Kosova-Albania highway being finished, Kosova doesn't really need Macedonia all that much for foreign trade.
And all this, not even mentioning ethnic unrest that will certainly follow such a decision, and deterioration of relations with US and EU.
Of all the countries that could possibly rescind recognition, Macedonia is in the least position to actually do so.
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
(Master ks, 1 June 2009 13:12)
there is not 600,000 albanians in macedonia, there is about 200,000.
Peter, you will be surprised to find out that Albanian population in Macedonia is over 25%.
I am not giving numbers and don’t believe that 40% is correct either however it is between the two.
I am not putting here any numbers into military power neither however I don’t believe that any country can afford to have unhappy members in their community (and over 25% unhappy people sound a lot).
Peter, always fear the one that has nothing to loose (remember Kosovo).
The fact remains that Albanians in Macedonia have been deprived of their basic rights during SFRJ and post SFRJ.
Again do not take this as a threat, these are simple facts.
Look at Macedonia Peter, who are its neighbours?
Greece, Bulgaria Albania, Kosovo and Serbia.
We know the Greece-Macedonia issues.
We know about the Macedonia-Bulgaria issues.
With Serbia, Macedonia has different issue. The issue of the inferiority.
Macedonia is afraid of Serbia, that is a fact. Macedonia has and will always be ignored by Serbia.
And as such it will try to stay as far as possible from tight links with it.
Problems with Kosovo and Albania would have been nonexistent if there were not Albanians in Macedonia (a luxury that Serbia does not have in Macedonia – otherwise we would have Republika Srbska of Macedonia) .
So Peter, I do believe that it is Macedonia that looses the most by trying to play the ignorance route.
I highlighted earlier, Macedonia is always annoyed because it is always ignored by Belgrade.
Trying to play the same game with Kosovo does not boil good.
And I am happy to say that our leadership has acted correctly to this political move from Macedonia.
Macedonia played hardball, Kosovo responded back.
The ball is in Macedonian court now Peter.
What will they do with it, that is their choice.
I hope they play a more professional game next time.
Another note Peter, I honestly believe that Macedonia needs Kosovo and Albanian friendship more than Kosovo and Albania need Macedonian friendship.
Scary reaction from the majority of the K-albanian camp here to what is essentially speculation - barring any official announcement from FYROM.
Threats of violence, intimidation & partition.
One hopes that these views are only the result of immaturity & ignorance.
Regarding the inflated statistics K-albanians like to use, wrote about this a couple of days ago. But seeing as the same figures have been popping-up here (600,000+, 30%, 33%, 40% etc), will summarise again.
2002 census lists 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17% then. Projected population for July 2009 is 2,066,718.
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this population increase is ALL albanian, then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is 26.77%.
And all of these figures are from the CIA World Factbook on Macedonia.
Will not stop those seeking to exaggerate albanian influence in places like FYROM of course by using grossly inflated statistics.. but put's the comments of those who like to use such in their proper context - ie: in the rubbish bin.
I think some people in Skopje forget that there are over 7 Million Albanians in the Balkans and a total of over 9 Million all over the world.
Skopje should understand that the time when they could treat the Albanians this way are over and a new time is comming.
(Nick KS, 2 June 2009 12:33)
So?? Is 20 millions Kurds on Middle East - but nobody thinkink about them. They have only some autonomy in Iraq, but in Turkey 12 millions Kurds have nothing.
FYROM is in trouble. They are searching for an identity which they can never find. Fortunately, Kosovars do have an identity and do not have this problem. FYROm, to my opinion, should strive for strong relations with Kosovo, as they do not have many friends as their neighbours. Nevertheless, all this news is just a political pressure being ahouldered from one side to the other, to take the first "reconciliatory" step by one or the other. FYROM would lose in this battle definitely, as they have no support on this matter.
FYROM does no have military hardware. Remember, the Embassies of the Quint are in the Albanian neighborhood in Shkup/Skopje. If FYROM controls the (non) "military hardware", cerainly Albanians control the electricity towards, water pumps, gas& oil industry, and most of the FYROm industry is focused on the Western side.
Please, FYROM is blackmailing the US to no back off from the Greeek lobby in the Congress.
quite interesting, ...is that really an Albanian writing about prematurity here?
I mean, who is showing all symptoms of it here in this forum after all?
who is boasting about birth-rates and "friendship" with the US?
and last but not least, to Goran, who wrote about "independence" without quotation marks...: Gorane, independence is for KiM is mere illusion, you should know that.
the moment the US-occupiers leave southern Serbia, that moment some kids in here will see what their "independence" is really about.
bganon:
"Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an
identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own language. The
people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag
is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own,
the national anthem a fudge. We all know it."
Exactly. Kosova is separate only because it cannot be part of
either Serbia or Albania, and its division would be worse than the fudge.
If the K Albanians can gradualy develop a
better stance towards the K Serb minority (as seems to be happening
slowly) and the K Serbs can look after their interests and take part in K
society rather than allowing themselves to be pawns for belgrade, then it
can all eventually work.
But it is, by definition, without its own identity, UNLIKE
Macedonia, where the ethnic Macedonians who the state is built around do
indeed have their own ethnic identity, regardless of what chauvinists in
Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia or Albania may think.
Yes the Albanian minority is very large, but that does not alter the
identity of the Macedonians. The fact that their language is similar to
Bulgarian is no different to the fact that Serbian and Croatian are the
same language, yet who denies two different ethnic identities (and indeed
three, the Bosniaks).
So a Macedonian leader made a mistake. So express your opinions about the
mistake. But frankly, this outpouring of hatred against Macedonia and
Macedonians just because of this mistake is amazing. Love how you insist
on calling the state "FYROM", ie the ridiculous name given it by primitive
Alexander-obsessed Greek nationalists, rather than its chosen name,
Republic of Macedonia. And love the threats to join Greece in vetoing and
blockading Macedonia and join Bulgaria in partitioning it. All because of
a diplomatic slight. For shame.
The Macedonians have their own anti-Albanian nutters and their own bizarre
Alexander obsessions, but this does not make them any worse than any
neighbouring people
All the talk of a united Europe or the European way is going no where. It is only brought about by force by self intreset or breaking apart when it is not in their intreset and making it in to their selfish greedy image. While the same rich countries go around securing for them selfs the worlds resources and bringing trouble divisions wars when it suits them to get more leverage in a region. Then pretending to be your good friends and their to help and to fix the problem which more then not they have created. Be careful of the Trojan horses. It is no different for the southern Balkan region yore all ready to bash each other for the greedy rich hypocrites nations of the world. They just have to give the word or a nod and yore at each others throats what a pity.
Its so funny when things get out of Proportion. This is like Chinese Whispers. This is just the opinion of some American analyst called Jonusz Bugajski AKA its speculation. 33% of Macedonia's population would riot. It would all kick off, it'd be political suicide. Besides Kosovo and Macedonia are to engage in diplomatic relations soon. Not to mention that Macedonia is depending on support from the UK and US on it's naming dispute, if this speculation were to come true (which it won't), I don't think it would go down too well for the naming dispute. UK and US would recognise it as FYROM and Macedonia's dreams of membership in EU & NATO will just become even more distant. President Sejdiu rejects all these silly claims.
But then again, none of this is going to happen, its all been blown out of proportion due to the Chinese Whispers affect.
macedonians will once have to ask themselves how far will they bow in serving the interests of albanians in their own country;how much will they tolerate the situation of being a majority undermined by minority... macedonia is a potential future kosovo, all the more so as the US are firmly behind the albanians; that's why macedonia's biggest mistake, as well as montenegro's, was to recognize kosovo, and open the doors to the same kind of scenarios on the home terrain...
@canada,[for you information]only Shkupi[Skopje]got more then 200.000 Albanians,what about Tetova,Gostivari,Kercova,Ohri,Struga,Dibra and all the west of FYROM,thanks
Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
De-recognition by Hungary is not on the table since - according increasing number of our local Nobel Price winners and brain surgeons - why would Magyar Gárda stop marching at Zemun and not at Prizren or in outskirts of Tokyo?
Explanation.
Some of our "friends" frmly believe, the current situation is only for the time being - till Kosovo won't become as "Rigómezö" a Hungarian "gyepü" (unpopulated border-territory for securing the wholeness of Great Hungary). My guess is, the methods (i.e. how to make Kosovo unpopulated) are suggested to be borrowed from Arrow-Cross.
Under normal circumstances this would be as serious as "Srbija do Tokija" - but if things go "well", after elections next year these geniuses could even sneak-in into parliament.
Why? Because of endless hunger for might of the likely future PM (Viktor Orbán). His "nick" is "mini-duce" for a good reason. He desires to take on the democracy by securing himself for as long as possible - by adopting new laws. This is possible only if he would get a 66.66% majority. If there would be even slightest danger, he won't get the desired 66.66%: he will try to get in the coalition with some really unholy ghosts. Using populist tunes and sometimes even mutually courting with "far right" is not new for V.O. - so I can imagine it to happen.
What to pray for: instead of Kosovo de-recognition, pray for V. Orbán not achieving the magic 66.66% even with the help of "far right". This so-called "absolute victory" is necessary to change the constitution and basic laws.
At this moment V. Orbán does promise, the VAT will be lowered, no property tax, lavish benefits including the 13th month pension will be re-installed. Since we will eat the cake - but still have it, everything is possible, even Magyar Gárda marching back and forth between Sar Planina and Fujiyama.
And even before the election campaign did kick off, the mass media seem to train itself, how to kiss Orbán's rear side. Of course, the very first thing he will do is to sack the entire TV, radio, etc. and now everyone wants to "secure' the future. I think, the backbone was lost around 1849... :(
Say the words rescind or recognize before Kosovo and the comments come! This is a great way for local newspapers to make $$$. Atleast these type of headings help the economy in some sort of way!
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
Very funny one! Can you name at least one Canadian Official from Ottawa that is against Kosova's recognition or independence?.
Do you acctually know Peter Worthington?, is that the same guy who wrote false stories on Toronto Sun back in 2004 about Croats and Bosnians? and then later to make an apology because Croats and Bosnians in Canada demanded so!.
Mr. who ever you are: I spend at least 8 hours at work and I've got 46 inch TV there, watching and getting updates on Canadian politics.
Read official Canadian interviews from Ottawa (House of Commons)on Globe & Mail instead.
One more thing!. Hungary would never rescind its' decision because they have an alliance with Albanians and it's about 600 year old, another words since Skanderbeg time.
My fellow Canadian I didn't mean to offend you but it's different what ordinary people hear on the street/s and it's totally different what's being said inside House of Commons.
Regarding the name issue, I was referring to Macedonian Albanians.
I believe Kosovo's government is smart enough to know not to interfere in any way there.
As far as the issue of goodwill, I still believe that it is a very necessary prerequisite for effective negotiations between Serbs and Albanians with long term and stable outcomes. I say that because a lot of people on both sides lost their lives (mostly Albos) and blood is not water. Otherwise, we end up with another Bosnia-style agreement which prevented further bloodshed in the short term, but is clearly not working in the long term.
I have mentioned before that independence may have been a non-starter if Serbian governments had shown more initiative and wisdom in reaching out to Kosovo Albanians (their own citizens after all) in the few years after the war. Instead they focused inwards, let Kosovo be UNMIK's problem and only decided to wake up when status negotiations began with nothing going for them but a UN resolution and arguments on sovereignty. All Albanians had to show to make their point was the destroyed province. Images are a lot more powerful than words. When considering what was at stake, I would have thought those governments would have tried a little harder.
In the end you may still have a point...let the two sides make each other's lives so miserable that they may just decide to agree to something.
As far as armed conflicts go, Kosovo is now an (imperfect) state (I know, I know...). That does mean however that it can't just go and support any crackhead in Macedonia who thinks he should start a war for a "Greater Albania". Albania most definitely will not support any of that nonsense. Prestige, aid and economic interests are at stake and few in the region are in the position to rock the boat that far.
johnny:
"Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats." I'm not sure what threats you've percieved from my posting, but I will refrain. At the end threats aren't appropriate in either situation. It would have been a better posed question to say "Why is it ok for you to make threats and not us?": such a phrased question contains the sub sentence of "Why is it ok for you to make threats", to which the answer should always be, 'it's not', however your question makes the assumption that threat making is ok in certain circumstances. That is never appropriate, and simply because it is done by some peoples the world over does not excuse anyone from this inappropriate behaviour. Yet again clarifying my point.
I fully understand that Ancient Macedonia is/was Greece. That is the point. Along with the information Amer provided, 'Illyria being contemporary to Greece', again is compounding the point. When Illyria existed it was part of a greater union. Either Greece or Rome. A nation buried between the two largest European based empires ever (British empire focused on the world as a whole and didn't control much of Europe) that has until recently been buried from the light of day, and needed to be 'rediscovered' as a historical society, cannot have been anything other than a tribe of one of the larger empires. That is okay, and it is the history, but making more out of it is disproportionate chest thumping.
Why do you Albanians think you're so strong in Macedonia? 25% of the population is not a majority. There may be a lot of you outside our country, but with the rest of our Slavic brothers there is more of us than you. Kosovo was one thing, if the Albanians in Macedonia tried to do what they did in Kosovo it would be their demise. They would lose all support and not only that, but in 2001 the Macedonians were beating the stuffing out of the NLA until NATO jumped in. Next time they might not be there.
And Greeks, stop calling Macedonia "FYROM" or then your country should be called "Former Turkish Territory of Greece". Vardar and Agean Macedonia were all one territory and you know it. Calling us newcomers? I'm sorry I didn't know that 1400 years makes you a newcomer. What does that make Americans then?
"Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes."
Straight talk Peggy? You are right on that. No one can play with Albanians anymore.
I personally do not believe in that headline. That would be suicidal act for Macedonia and I still believe Macedonia is a multiethnic democratic country. I am sparing my comments if I got this wrong.
I like reading your comments even when I disagree with them.
With regard to your comment above...
If you were referring to the Albanians' ultimatum to the Macedonian government to address the name issue and move forward with the NATO and EU integration, I would hardly call it a hardline stand.
I'm willing to bet all Macedonians want this, but the Slavic majority does not seem to have the courage to compromise with Greece, the main obstacle. Maybe an "ultimatum" from the Albos is exactly what the Macedonian government needs in order to make that compromise while possibly saving face by blaming the "disloyal" Albanians for "forcing the government to do it."
As far as Albanians getting tired following the rules... I don't know about that. You may be right, but as you said, that's the nature of the beast. If you put yourself in a position of asking someone else to help you out, be that IMF, another country, an alliance or whatever, naturally you have to play by certain rules. They may be inconvenient but there you go.
This does not affect only the Albanians however. Don't you find it striking that Russia always brings up Kosovo and what great friend of Serbia it is, every time NATO relations or the South Stream or some other business transaction that's not going too well comes up?
With regards to this speculation about the rescinding of recognition, well I think it's just that, speculation. But if Macedonia's government does decide to go ahead with it, then this would be an act of treachery. A retaliation of some kind (political, diplomatic) by the Albanians would be more than a justified reaction. Anyone predicting renewed armed conflicts however, is delusional.
I think Adrian summed up pretty correctly what might follow should something like this take place.
With regard to negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo, well, they would require at least a minimum amount of goodwill as a prerequisite. Since the war ended, all Serbian governments including the present one have displayed anything but that towards the Kosovar Albanians. Starting status negotiations under the present conditions is simply a waste of time and effort.
I love when these premature speculations pop up and all the sudden everyone jumps up!!! All the sudden the go away and in the meantime kosova gets new recognitions, then another spuculation pops up like "Turkey is going to rescind Kosovo recognition"......desperate times call fir desperate measures!
Who cares about these states and their Kosovo recognitions...I mean after all you have resolution 1244 and Russia the apple who's bright red and juicy looking from the outside but rotten inside.
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
Canadian:
Say something about active Canadian politicians, another words about Canadian politicians who represent you and me and the rest of us Canadians in Ottawa.
I've watched it live on CBC last year when Canadian then PM Maxime Bernier announced Canada's decision to recognize Kosova as Idependent Country. All MPs were in favor including Bloc Québécois(the political party from Québéc).
I can bet on anything that Canadian Gov, will never even talk about rescind on behalf of Kosova.
Unversity of Calgary(Alberta) has been investing in Prishtina since 2002(on Education Field) and that's just one of the Canada's investments in Kosova.
ha.. that will be very nice if really happen !?,if so albanians who make up to 40% of population and they right are being discriminated even after the Ohrid Agreement and other side problems with Greeks, I don't think so Macedonia ever will made up in EU or NATO. So GOOD LUCK.. I;m very curious to see what really happen PEACE..
I really hope that they do it. This would contribute a lot to all Albanians. The end of Ohrid Agreement, in other words the division of Macedonia. It would break up its support from the US where its future as a country would be questioned and its fake existence would be diminished by Bulgaria, Albania and Greece. It would change the Balkans map. It would do a lot of good stuff for Albanians.
I doubt they would do that though, because they are not at a state of nature not to recognize the effects of such a move. It would hurt them so bad.
#28 Certainly you could have used something more than a commentary in a tabloid newspaper as a stronger support for your claims of how Canadians are having daily high level discussions about the recognition of Kosovo.
You can find a commentary pro and con for almost any subject in the world.
Commentaries are not considered factual newswriting but individual opinions.
No,it won't!!! Because they know very well that their territorial integrity and their very existence as a state it depends on the Albanian factor. By recognizing Kosovo they nailed the final nail on the coffin of Greater Albania and secured their border not against a status less province, but against a state. Any revoking of the recognition it will mean that their own borders aren't secured. Not to mention that Albania (and Greece also may) retaliate with revocation of the recognition of Macedonia not only as a state, but also it own borders.
How they will react if they have 2 or 3 out of their 5 neighbors not recognising the existence of its own state?
Macedonians weren't stupid when they decided to "side" with Kosovo by recognising it. They secured the borders of their own state.
Lyra, Macedonia is Greek; end of story. There were no slavs in Macedonia; and now there's slavs in that part of the Balkans. Hence they're new comers. The rest where Albanians still live, are natives.
Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats.
P.S Albania as a state has the right retaliate if Macedonia does anything stupid. That is add its veto to NATO to that of Greece in case of FYROM. Also close our ports that FYROM now uses for free.
That said you can't stop people's thoughts. They think FYROM will have trouble. That's their opinion.
Lot of comments here based on a couple of newspaper articles.
So, they don't do politics in Kosovo? And they don't have elections?
BTW, this same Janusz Bugajski was saying only a year ago that 'Macedonians should not feel insecure if the name was changed, especially if in the process they enjoyed the support of Albanians. After joining NATO and the EU there will no threats to Macedonia's survival.'
Meaning: until they're in, they're going to have to be careful.
‘Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje’.
If this is really a reason to revoke the decision of recognizing Kosovo then it will really give credit to Macedonia in the int. affairs. But, as long as Macedonia is heading towards NATO and EU, this can’t happen even in a dream.
To be honest, I really don’t understand some here who immediately jump into some conclusions or scenarios after having read some news, which after all it’s only some media speculation.
All in all, the whole this situation goes very much into Serbia’s current policy favours. Both, Kosovo and Macedonia are losers. On the other side, I see great pressure from Serbia on the Macedonian side, what is a clear indicator that Serbia (and Macedonia also) with their current policies are far from joining EU. One can not join only by giving some declarations that we want to join, it takes some deep changes, reforms, and most important good neighborly relations.
”This is according to an article in today's Albanian language daily Koha Ditore”.
It’s kind of funny how pro Serb posters believe the “yellow pages” of Kosovo, as they like to call Kosovo media in every occasion when there is some news that doesn’t suit their ‘cause’.
Zoran, # 43, here is a link to Czech embassy in Prishtina, http://www.mzv.cz/pristina, so I guess you don’t have very reliable sources.
Macedonia will never rescind the Kosovo recognition. They know the consequences and repercussions if they even think about such an idea. I don't want to go any further than that :)
Being a Serb I still don't see this happenning, it's just wishful thinking. If they do this it will cause anther civil war in macedonia because of the Albos (big surprise).
'Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.'
The admission of ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Here's a link to The Illyrians by John Wilkes (in the series The Peoples of Europe):http://books.google.com/books?id=iOWS4i5X9fgC&dq=illyrians&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9Pb5bbVqkq&sig=6dy1FmaQZg1k9NKyq0-jPwaHhdU&hl=en&ei=b3YkSsCWEM6Ytgelt9XIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#PPP1,M1
Or just search on "The Illyrians" and look for books.google.com/books......
Unfortunately, google doesn't give you the entire book, but it's a start.
(BTW, the Illyrians were contemporaries of the Greeks and Macedonians, to clear up one point.)
I love it when the people who live in Serbian immigrant communities in the West think they have an inside track on the sentiments of the whole country.
"I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria."
First of all I would really question the validity of your scholar status, or either you should have mentioned that you are a scholar of engineering. Because a social science scholar status who has to do anything with ancient history of Europe would know that. Even in literature, Shakespeare wrote "Twelfth Night"which is a whole play about Illyria. They have had three wars with the Roman Empire, they were the greatest challengers to them for a very long period.
A few Roman Emperors have had Illyrian origins as well.
There are numerous other works by very famous people in the world.
However, its important to mention that their history is very limited to what we have today because of the continuous great works of others over the centuries to destroy it.
Today the President of Macedonia was in Albania meeting the Albanian president. The media reacted very much as he remained silent and was given some lectures by the president of Albania about the current situation in the Balkans, especially the Kosovo Independence and Albanian membership to NATO.
Let's suppose that this is true. It seems after reading all these comments that there is no integrity in the country of FYROM. Even if the Albanian population is 25% it is still a quite big analogy.. The so called Republic of "Macedonia" experimental country (made in USA) is causing problems to everybody around (it seems that they have studied a bit of Tito). And this is the reason of its existance. To cause problems. It is part of the strategy of USA "DIVIDE AND CONQUER". They want Balkan nations to be apart so they can bully us around. Our region is very strategic and they want control. I am very dissapointed by some Serbian people who call this country "Macedonia".
SKOPJE -- Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje.
If thsi would happened , that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world. Recognizing one country was never revoked, but breaking diplomatic relations it has happened and will continue to happened. Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
To add, Albanians in FYROM have given the "Macedonians" till the end of the year to solve their ridiculous name dispute and this is what's really bothering the Fyrom slavs! They have issues with Bulgaria, Greeks (over "Macedonian") with Serbs over the Church and 30% of FYROM is Albanian. Only the Albanians say we don't care who you are or what you call yourself, jut get in NATO and EU.
If they do this, they will most likely face a blockade from Greece and Albania will not serve as a backup. Only their mother country, Bulgaria might help them at a huge price. Naturally they can kiss EU and NATO goodbye so this is just FYROM slavs bluffing out of desperation for not going anywhere in NATO or EU! With Albanians making 30% of their population, 30% of their army and police they aren't doing anything. if the Albanians boycott the government, FYROM will be even more isolated by Europe!
We will dump FYROM and get Greek and Cyprus recognition for Kosova in return!
Shkupi(Skopje) would rescind Kosova's recognition but question is: can Macedonia afford such decision knowing that they're in greatest trouble ever?. According to Greek government the word Macedonia doesn't exist outside greek borders.
Macedonia should try and make friends in the region.. but hey it's up to them, at the end it's like"who cares" what Macedonia says.
Intelegence and Stupidity don't have borders.
In that case let them rescind their own existence. By the way for those who are not familiar; Macedonians would never recognize Kosovo without a pressure and fear by more than 40 % Albanian inhabitants in Macedonia. So, this would be a message to our tiny Macedonian neighbor.
"I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason? "
Define "hard line" first! Asking Serbs to pay for electricity hardly qualifies as "hard line"
And negotiations over what? What is Serbia offering? be specific!!
Macedonia needs european's and america's support for Euro-Atlantic integretion and for the Name dispute with Greece.
It is Macedonia's interest not to do so.
FYROM is in trouble. They are searching for an identity which they can never find. Fortunately, Kosovars do have an identity and do not have this problem. FYROm, to my opinion, should strive for strong relations with Kosovo, as they do not have many friends as their neighbours. Nevertheless, all this news is just a political pressure being ahouldered from one side to the other, to take the first "reconciliatory" step by one or the other. FYROM would lose in this battle definitely, as they have no support on this matter.
I doubt Macedonia is in a position to do that. Macedonia tries to play hardball, but it always backfires on them. Macedonia has more to loose from it than Kosova itself.
If Macedonia rescinds Kosova's recognition, Albania might as well rescind recognizing it as "Republic of Macedonia", start using FYROM instead and support Greece in the name row. Furthermore, Albania might block Macedonia's free use of Albanian roads and ports, slap visas on Macedonian citizens, allowing in only ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and veto Macedonia's entry in NATO, on top of Greece's veto.
Furthermore, exports in Kosova, that account for nearly 300 million a year, will be blocked, as well as trade with Albania. And now with the Kosova-Albania highway being finished, Kosova doesn't really need Macedonia all that much for foreign trade.
And all this, not even mentioning ethnic unrest that will certainly follow such a decision, and deterioration of relations with US and EU.
Of all the countries that could possibly rescind recognition, Macedonia is in the least position to actually do so.
It is in our interest if Macedonia does that. That would mean dividing in half (with Bulgaria) and in other words that would be a step further to the achievement of the great Albania mission.
I really hope that they do it. This would contribute a lot to all Albanians. The end of Ohrid Agreement, in other words the division of Macedonia. It would break up its support from the US where its future as a country would be questioned and its fake existence would be diminished by Bulgaria, Albania and Greece. It would change the Balkans map. It would do a lot of good stuff for Albanians.
I doubt they would do that though, because they are not at a state of nature not to recognize the effects of such a move. It would hurt them so bad.
Its so funny when things get out of Proportion. This is like Chinese Whispers. This is just the opinion of some American analyst called Jonusz Bugajski AKA its speculation. 33% of Macedonia's population would riot. It would all kick off, it'd be political suicide. Besides Kosovo and Macedonia are to engage in diplomatic relations soon. Not to mention that Macedonia is depending on support from the UK and US on it's naming dispute, if this speculation were to come true (which it won't), I don't think it would go down too well for the naming dispute. UK and US would recognise it as FYROM and Macedonia's dreams of membership in EU & NATO will just become even more distant. President Sejdiu rejects all these silly claims.
But then again, none of this is going to happen, its all been blown out of proportion due to the Chinese Whispers affect.
FYROM does no have military hardware. Remember, the Embassies of the Quint are in the Albanian neighborhood in Shkup/Skopje. If FYROM controls the (non) "military hardware", cerainly Albanians control the electricity towards, water pumps, gas& oil industry, and most of the FYROm industry is focused on the Western side.
Please, FYROM is blackmailing the US to no back off from the Greeek lobby in the Congress.
Right on cue. Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes.
This is a chance for Macedonia to make amends to people of reason. They might even get credit for this from Greece, Serbia and Russia. Perhaps they see the writing on the wall. The west is losing power while Russia and China are gaining power. Unlike Albanians, they want to align with the winning side.
All it takes is one country to take back this ridiculous recognition of a province to stard the others thinking.
"Albanians come out in force threatening anyone who dares to step on their toes."
Straight talk Peggy? You are right on that. No one can play with Albanians anymore.
I personally do not believe in that headline. That would be suicidal act for Macedonia and I still believe Macedonia is a multiethnic democratic country. I am sparing my comments if I got this wrong.
So, Macedonia might take back its recognition of Kosovo. Wonder how Albanians will take this news? I guess its time for Albanians to make new threats about secession in Macedonia and bring out the thousands of weapons they have hidden just in case "their rights are violated".
I've never laughed so much. Can anyone believe how naiive and arrogant the albanian commentors are on this site? How many of them are claiming that skopje will never reconsider its recognition because of the albanians there? the 600,000 albanians? I'm sorry, but isnt this what the serbs have been trying to show the west all along? So much for the wests "kosovo is a unique case". Its about as unique as a piece of paper. Even the albanians on this site know that its anything BUT unique. but this is just ridiculous!!!! think you can really bully them into recognition because of the amount of people you have there?
Kosovo Je Srbija =)
Even funnier the west thinking that it will bring stability to the region through kosovo independence!
Well I certainly was not expecting FYROM to be the first state to rescind recognition, since they have so many albanians living there, but if they do then great! Come one, come all!!
Peter, you will be surprised to find out that Albanian population in Macedonia is over 25%.
I am not giving numbers and don’t believe that 40% is correct either however it is between the two.
I am not putting here any numbers into military power neither however I don’t believe that any country can afford to have unhappy members in their community (and over 25% unhappy people sound a lot).
Peter, always fear the one that has nothing to loose (remember Kosovo).
The fact remains that Albanians in Macedonia have been deprived of their basic rights during SFRJ and post SFRJ.
Again do not take this as a threat, these are simple facts.
Look at Macedonia Peter, who are its neighbours?
Greece, Bulgaria Albania, Kosovo and Serbia.
We know the Greece-Macedonia issues.
We know about the Macedonia-Bulgaria issues.
With Serbia, Macedonia has different issue. The issue of the inferiority.
Macedonia is afraid of Serbia, that is a fact. Macedonia has and will always be ignored by Serbia.
And as such it will try to stay as far as possible from tight links with it.
Problems with Kosovo and Albania would have been nonexistent if there were not Albanians in Macedonia (a luxury that Serbia does not have in Macedonia – otherwise we would have Republika Srbska of Macedonia) .
So Peter, I do believe that it is Macedonia that looses the most by trying to play the ignorance route.
I highlighted earlier, Macedonia is always annoyed because it is always ignored by Belgrade.
Trying to play the same game with Kosovo does not boil good.
And I am happy to say that our leadership has acted correctly to this political move from Macedonia.
Macedonia played hardball, Kosovo responded back.
The ball is in Macedonian court now Peter.
What will they do with it, that is their choice.
I hope they play a more professional game next time.
Another note Peter, I honestly believe that Macedonia needs Kosovo and Albanian friendship more than Kosovo and Albania need Macedonian friendship.
These are always voices of speculation, but Skopje never will do such things. There are at least some 600.000 Ethnic Albanians, even more they are more linked with Kosova than with Albania. Considering all these, this path won't happen at any price in relation to Serbia's pressure.
(Master ks, 1 June 2009 13:12)
there is not 600,000 albanians in macedonia, there is about 200,000.
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
Very funny one! Can you name at least one Canadian Official from Ottawa that is against Kosova's recognition or independence?.
Do you acctually know Peter Worthington?, is that the same guy who wrote false stories on Toronto Sun back in 2004 about Croats and Bosnians? and then later to make an apology because Croats and Bosnians in Canada demanded so!.
Mr. who ever you are: I spend at least 8 hours at work and I've got 46 inch TV there, watching and getting updates on Canadian politics.
Read official Canadian interviews from Ottawa (House of Commons)on Globe & Mail instead.
One more thing!. Hungary would never rescind its' decision because they have an alliance with Albanians and it's about 600 year old, another words since Skanderbeg time.
My fellow Canadian I didn't mean to offend you but it's different what ordinary people hear on the street/s and it's totally different what's being said inside House of Commons.
ha.. that will be very nice if really happen !?,if so albanians who make up to 40% of population and they right are being discriminated even after the Ohrid Agreement and other side problems with Greeks, I don't think so Macedonia ever will made up in EU or NATO. So GOOD LUCK.. I;m very curious to see what really happen PEACE..
@canada,[for you information]only Shkupi[Skopje]got more then 200.000 Albanians,what about Tetova,Gostivari,Kercova,Ohri,Struga,Dibra and all the west of FYROM,thanks
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
Canadian:
Say something about active Canadian politicians, another words about Canadian politicians who represent you and me and the rest of us Canadians in Ottawa.
I've watched it live on CBC last year when Canadian then PM Maxime Bernier announced Canada's decision to recognize Kosova as Idependent Country. All MPs were in favor including Bloc Québécois(the political party from Québéc).
I can bet on anything that Canadian Gov, will never even talk about rescind on behalf of Kosova.
Unversity of Calgary(Alberta) has been investing in Prishtina since 2002(on Education Field) and that's just one of the Canada's investments in Kosova.
I like reading your comments even when I disagree with them.
With regard to your comment above...
If you were referring to the Albanians' ultimatum to the Macedonian government to address the name issue and move forward with the NATO and EU integration, I would hardly call it a hardline stand.
I'm willing to bet all Macedonians want this, but the Slavic majority does not seem to have the courage to compromise with Greece, the main obstacle. Maybe an "ultimatum" from the Albos is exactly what the Macedonian government needs in order to make that compromise while possibly saving face by blaming the "disloyal" Albanians for "forcing the government to do it."
As far as Albanians getting tired following the rules... I don't know about that. You may be right, but as you said, that's the nature of the beast. If you put yourself in a position of asking someone else to help you out, be that IMF, another country, an alliance or whatever, naturally you have to play by certain rules. They may be inconvenient but there you go.
This does not affect only the Albanians however. Don't you find it striking that Russia always brings up Kosovo and what great friend of Serbia it is, every time NATO relations or the South Stream or some other business transaction that's not going too well comes up?
With regards to this speculation about the rescinding of recognition, well I think it's just that, speculation. But if Macedonia's government does decide to go ahead with it, then this would be an act of treachery. A retaliation of some kind (political, diplomatic) by the Albanians would be more than a justified reaction. Anyone predicting renewed armed conflicts however, is delusional.
I think Adrian summed up pretty correctly what might follow should something like this take place.
With regard to negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo, well, they would require at least a minimum amount of goodwill as a prerequisite. Since the war ended, all Serbian governments including the present one have displayed anything but that towards the Kosovar Albanians. Starting status negotiations under the present conditions is simply a waste of time and effort.
that it will the first time it ever happened, but where does that leave Govermant in Skopje.This will turn Macedonia into child games and will never be taken serious by any country around the world.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
This is correct, they (FYROM-ians) already did the same game with Taiwan. Skopje did recognize Taiwan first - than it turned out, Mainland Chinese pushed stronger than Taiwanese and they switched within few month.
This is correct: it made Skopje object of jokes.
----------------------------
Recognizing one country was never revoked
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
It did happen fairly recently - and precisely with Skopje.
----------------------------
Skopje is not stupid do such stupid thing, otherwise Macedonia will not exist for very long.
(Kosova-USA, 1 June 2009 13:38)
They may do it or may not again. That country is very easy to pressure and blackmail either way. I do not know the circumstances leading them to recognize Kosovo to begin with. If it was American arm-twisting and blackmailing - than blame the Bush administration for doing such things.
As for possible Albanian violence: some posters did threaten with it. Well, that fact alone speaks miles about the nationalism.
Why is it whenever Macedonia is mentioned as not cooperating with the Albanians, they threaten to destroy the country or speaking on the EU's behalf with regards to membership, or whatever? The Albanian population of Macedonia is 25%, not 40%, and the Slavs control all the military hardware, so who is scared of the Albanians there?
#28 Certainly you could have used something more than a commentary in a tabloid newspaper as a stronger support for your claims of how Canadians are having daily high level discussions about the recognition of Kosovo.
You can find a commentary pro and con for almost any subject in the world.
Commentaries are not considered factual newswriting but individual opinions.
Go ahead start another uprising to steal more land that is not yours. But didn't those terorrists learn their lesson when they tried that? Did you forget what happened at Brodec?
Too bad the world public doesn't know who you really are because of american propaganda machine.
No,it won't!!! Because they know very well that their territorial integrity and their very existence as a state it depends on the Albanian factor. By recognizing Kosovo they nailed the final nail on the coffin of Greater Albania and secured their border not against a status less province, but against a state. Any revoking of the recognition it will mean that their own borders aren't secured. Not to mention that Albania (and Greece also may) retaliate with revocation of the recognition of Macedonia not only as a state, but also it own borders.
How they will react if they have 2 or 3 out of their 5 neighbors not recognising the existence of its own state?
Macedonians weren't stupid when they decided to "side" with Kosovo by recognising it. They secured the borders of their own state.
In Canada the mood to rescind recognition is the same as it is in Macedonia, in fact if the ICJ concludes that Kosovo's independence is illegal Canada will be the first country to resend the recognition. Every day there is high level discussions about Canada's mistake to recognize Kosovo I suspect its the same in many other Countries too, see this article in a Canadian news paper > http://www.edmontonsun.com/comment/columnists/peter_worthington/2009/06/01/9634216-sun.html
... By the way if Macedonia does rescind so well Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
Just as I thought. Numerous comments about threats to Macedonian sovereignity. Unfortunately these are empty threats. Albanians have no Milosevic to blame and should you start trouble you will be in even greater trouble. You don't actually think anyone besides Albania will support the tearing up of yet another country?
Lot of comments here based on a couple of newspaper articles.
So, they don't do politics in Kosovo? And they don't have elections?
BTW, this same Janusz Bugajski was saying only a year ago that 'Macedonians should not feel insecure if the name was changed, especially if in the process they enjoyed the support of Albanians. After joining NATO and the EU there will no threats to Macedonia's survival.'
Meaning: until they're in, they're going to have to be careful.
HAHAHAHAAHAHA if they can do it so can/will US. only a matter of politics. Since this ploy failed it would be hilarious. Res 1244 stand. Watch now US diplomats scramble for damage control. TOO FUNNY. Kosovo is no independent but an occupied Serbian province.
Regarding the name issue, I was referring to Macedonian Albanians.
I believe Kosovo's government is smart enough to know not to interfere in any way there.
As far as the issue of goodwill, I still believe that it is a very necessary prerequisite for effective negotiations between Serbs and Albanians with long term and stable outcomes. I say that because a lot of people on both sides lost their lives (mostly Albos) and blood is not water. Otherwise, we end up with another Bosnia-style agreement which prevented further bloodshed in the short term, but is clearly not working in the long term.
I have mentioned before that independence may have been a non-starter if Serbian governments had shown more initiative and wisdom in reaching out to Kosovo Albanians (their own citizens after all) in the few years after the war. Instead they focused inwards, let Kosovo be UNMIK's problem and only decided to wake up when status negotiations began with nothing going for them but a UN resolution and arguments on sovereignty. All Albanians had to show to make their point was the destroyed province. Images are a lot more powerful than words. When considering what was at stake, I would have thought those governments would have tried a little harder.
In the end you may still have a point...let the two sides make each other's lives so miserable that they may just decide to agree to something.
As far as armed conflicts go, Kosovo is now an (imperfect) state (I know, I know...). That does mean however that it can't just go and support any crackhead in Macedonia who thinks he should start a war for a "Greater Albania". Albania most definitely will not support any of that nonsense. Prestige, aid and economic interests are at stake and few in the region are in the position to rock the boat that far.
I'll eat my hat if this happens. Both are puppets with the same puppetmaster - the US. the US will give them both a stern telling off and things will be back to normal.
Macedonia will never rescind the Kosovo recognition. They know the consequences and repercussions if they even think about such an idea. I don't want to go any further than that :)
Albanians have always accused Belgrade of pursuing a hard line concerned with its defence of Kosovo. This includes accusation that the current Serbian administration is the same as Milosevic minus war. Serbia was accused of trying to threaten Montenegro with diplomacy etc.
With the recent problem(s) between Kosovo Albanian leaders and Macedonian state we saw a hard line adopted and supported by the Albanian camp. People seem to enjoy administering 'punishment' and supporting some kind of national programme, even at the expense of others. However, is it wise? I ask Albanians who claim that Serbia lost Kosovo because of hard line policies whether it is therefore possible for Kosovo Albanians to lose independence for the same reason?
On the story itself I think its unlikely that Macedonia would rescind Kosovo recognition without a good 'excuse'. That excuse though would be provided by a decision from ICJ. And it is a very dangerous prospect, were Macedonia to rescind recognition Montenegro could easily follow suit.
I know the Albanian camp is probably sick and tired of following everybody elses rules / orders but that is the nature of the best. You will have to carry on doing what you are told for many years and not rock the boat if you want to see your dream realised. Its not over and as you know the north of Kosovo is another issue.
I genuinely believe the only way out of this is direct negotiation. That way both Kosovo Albanians and Serbs will be able to lift a weight from our respective necks.
I guess what I find most striking about the majority of the pro-Albanian posts here is the utter hypocrisy and insolence demonstrated. On one hand we have pro-Albanian posters, day after long day claiming the leap-and-bound-like advancements in democracy within their potentially feldgling state. They talk about the freedoms and democratic ideals within the new;y EULEX'd Kosovar Governmental framework. They talk about how it was the Kosovar Albanians that were, and always are, the scapegoats, the trampled on, the peaceful resistance to some external evil.
Now, however, upon the slightest hint of a neighbouring country, a fully recognized international state (name not withstanding), might recall its recognition, the pro-Albanian camp has littered this forum with subversive threat after the next; they've also made outright threats to territorial claims, calling for partioning of yet another soverign state. All of this in the so-called-name of Albanian democracy. It has become ever more evident that the Albanian minorities within it's parent's neighbouring countries have become isolationists, and grand-standing nationalists. They've used all forms of half-baked arguments, as they see them fit their own world view time and again, but the recipricol arguments, applied with the same logic against the pro-Albanian camp and/or movement are consistently ignored or branded "evil" nationalism.
I ask the Democratically minded pro-Albanian posters to rationalize the dismemberment of another democratic nation. If this camp claims the indefinable rights of minorities in democracies, and as such recognizes these rights in their fellow Albanian decendents in whatever country they happen to be in, why not let the peoples of the nation in question, Albanian heritage or not, make the descisions that relate to their own country, without predjudice or bias? Or are all of my fellow posters so blinded by their nationalistic rage and biases that they cannot for a moment allow true democracy to happen unless it is favouring them? That my friends is how democracy works. Not all of the choices are favoured by any one person, but they are favoured in general, each and every one, by the majority of the population, and or government (which is less democratic in principle but in the least contains a flavour of democracy)?
Why is it that Albanians have this overwhelming need to isolate themselves from the rest of the peoples around them if they aren't Albanian? Where is all of this coming from? Why is this camp so visibly aggresive and angered with their neighbours, over and over again? Why the inuendo, why the violent rhetoric? Why more? Why not stop and ask yourselves why? All of this talk about joining EU, removing borders, becoming brothers with Europe, and then out of the otherside of the mouth, more nationalistic, isolationaistic rhetoric, simply ment to further destabalize the region. Is it perhaps because the pro-Albanian camp feels a sense of protection from the Camp of Bonsteel? Does this permanent temporary military base give the impression that whatever acts of aggression and destabalization done in the name of Albanians is fundamentaly ok and will be protected forever? If so, then the farce of peace and democracy has certainly been played on every stage in every village in every Albanian region of eastern Europe, and that is perhaps the greatest shame of all.
I read through the first 55 posts in this forum and was somewhat surprised not to read reference to Illyria. Is that perhaps because possibly Macedonia predates Illyria (I'm sure I'll have one after the next giving me some fantasatic historical reference to this); is it perhaps also possible that Illyria is a province of Ancient Macedonia. The Albanians claim their stewardship of the land because of their historical Illyria predating the Slavic migration to the Balkans, but I wonder how they honestly feel about returning the whole of the Balkans back to Greece or Macedonia as the case may be. Using the Illyrian argument, Ancient Macedonia and the tribes of Ancient Greece were the stewards of the Balkans prior to Illyria's conception.
I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.
I love it when the people who live in Serbian immigrant communities in the West think they have an inside track on the sentiments of the whole country.
Lyra, Macedonia is Greek; end of story. There were no slavs in Macedonia; and now there's slavs in that part of the Balkans. Hence they're new comers. The rest where Albanians still live, are natives.
Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats.
P.S Albania as a state has the right retaliate if Macedonia does anything stupid. That is add its veto to NATO to that of Greece in case of FYROM. Also close our ports that FYROM now uses for free.
That said you can't stop people's thoughts. They think FYROM will have trouble. That's their opinion.
"It is well known there are 30 - 40% of Albanians in Macedonia."
L*O*G*I*C
The reason Albanians say there are 30-40% Albanians in Macedonia is to claim the right to 30-40% of its territory. The stability the Americans so deeply desire is far far away. Unfortunately, Balkan troubles have just begun.
I love when these premature speculations pop up and all the sudden everyone jumps up!!! All the sudden the go away and in the meantime kosova gets new recognitions, then another spuculation pops up like "Turkey is going to rescind Kosovo recognition"......desperate times call fir desperate measures!
Who cares about these states and their Kosovo recognitions...I mean after all you have resolution 1244 and Russia the apple who's bright red and juicy looking from the outside but rotten inside.
The first country to rescind recognition is more likely to be somewhere like the Czech Republic, where there was no popular support for Kosovan UDI in the first place and where the political mood is becoming increasingly Eurosceptic. As for the poster above who sees Greece and Cyprus being encouraged to recognise my Macedonia's change of position, dream on.
It's a fact that Macedonia should fear more the "Great Albania" project, than Albanian minorities in the country.
"Delaying a fight you will only make your enemy stronger" - I hope Macedonia has already realised it.
I wonder whether the leaders of FYROM were listening to Thaci's speech yesterday when he spoke about a tunnel between Albania and Kosovo joining a divided nation (aka Greater Albania). Did they wondered whether that extended into FYROMian territory and whether their recognition will backfire?
Based on the comments here by our Southern citizens (mainly of Albanian ethnicity), that seems to be justified. Recognition seems to be based on pressure and bribes while revoking it brings only threats.
This independence experiment is turning into a disaster. The temporary institutions in Kosovo are only making life miserable for the provincial minorities and are treating them exactly like they claim to be treated by the permanent authorities.
As far as I can tell, the Czech Republic revoking recognition is a done deal. In fact its recognition is not even legal without the appointment of an ambassador - which the president refused to do.
I think our Southern citizens should negotiate. My bets are on the Czech republic being first to revoke recognition.
Let's suppose that this is true. It seems after reading all these comments that there is no integrity in the country of FYROM. Even if the Albanian population is 25% it is still a quite big analogy.. The so called Republic of "Macedonia" experimental country (made in USA) is causing problems to everybody around (it seems that they have studied a bit of Tito). And this is the reason of its existance. To cause problems. It is part of the strategy of USA "DIVIDE AND CONQUER". They want Balkan nations to be apart so they can bully us around. Our region is very strategic and they want control. I am very dissapointed by some Serbian people who call this country "Macedonia".
‘Macedonia could revoke its decision to recognize Kosovo after President Fatmir Sejdiu refused to visit Skopje’.
If this is really a reason to revoke the decision of recognizing Kosovo then it will really give credit to Macedonia in the int. affairs. But, as long as Macedonia is heading towards NATO and EU, this can’t happen even in a dream.
To be honest, I really don’t understand some here who immediately jump into some conclusions or scenarios after having read some news, which after all it’s only some media speculation.
All in all, the whole this situation goes very much into Serbia’s current policy favours. Both, Kosovo and Macedonia are losers. On the other side, I see great pressure from Serbia on the Macedonian side, what is a clear indicator that Serbia (and Macedonia also) with their current policies are far from joining EU. One can not join only by giving some declarations that we want to join, it takes some deep changes, reforms, and most important good neighborly relations.
”This is according to an article in today's Albanian language daily Koha Ditore”.
It’s kind of funny how pro Serb posters believe the “yellow pages” of Kosovo, as they like to call Kosovo media in every occasion when there is some news that doesn’t suit their ‘cause’.
Zoran, # 43, here is a link to Czech embassy in Prishtina, http://www.mzv.cz/pristina, so I guess you don’t have very reliable sources.
'Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria.'
The admission of ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Here's a link to The Illyrians by John Wilkes (in the series The Peoples of Europe):http://books.google.com/books?id=iOWS4i5X9fgC&dq=illyrians&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9Pb5bbVqkq&sig=6dy1FmaQZg1k9NKyq0-jPwaHhdU&hl=en&ei=b3YkSsCWEM6Ytgelt9XIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#PPP1,M1
Or just search on "The Illyrians" and look for books.google.com/books......
Unfortunately, google doesn't give you the entire book, but it's a start.
(BTW, the Illyrians were contemporaries of the Greeks and Macedonians, to clear up one point.)
All the talk of a united Europe or the European way is going no where. It is only brought about by force by self intreset or breaking apart when it is not in their intreset and making it in to their selfish greedy image. While the same rich countries go around securing for them selfs the worlds resources and bringing trouble divisions wars when it suits them to get more leverage in a region. Then pretending to be your good friends and their to help and to fix the problem which more then not they have created. Be careful of the Trojan horses. It is no different for the southern Balkan region yore all ready to bash each other for the greedy rich hypocrites nations of the world. They just have to give the word or a nod and yore at each others throats what a pity.
Go Macedonia, go!! Don't think about US pressure, think about Macedonia territorial integrity. If USA can question territorial integrity of Serbia - they can in future question territorial integrity of Macedonia and create "independent state" for "Western Macedoniars" ;)
In response to your question to name just “one” influential Canadian against Kosovo recognition, here are just 2! > Lord Byron Foundation and James Bissett,.
You obviously live in denial my friend, for your information Kosovo was recognized just “barely” in the Canadian parliament it had a great deal of opposition just like every other country that recognized this wanna-be state. Recognition under pressure is really nothing to be proud of. There is not a single country that has recognized any of the other former Legitimate Republics of Yugoslavia under pressure, or truly against their wills, only Kosovo has been recognized under pressure and most of these countries are just waiting for a good excuse to rescind that recognition and the ICJ will give then that excuse,… My dear friend watch the dominos fall one year from today when one-by-one recognition is rescinded, starting from Canada!
Likewise Ment you always have something measured and thought out to say.
I wrote what I meant in the post above - I am essentially talking about bullying or blackmailing one's neighbours. The Macedonian name issue comes into it of course, but in the end I don't think the opinion of Kosovo on the name will have a great effect either way.
Yes, I agree you diplomatic retaliation is justified, acceptible in international relations if Macedonia were to revoke recognition of Kosovo - although harder to justify in case of a defeat at the ICJ.
However, I don't agree with you that armed conflicts are excluded. I will go further than that, I am almost certain that if Kosovo recognition is rescinded that an Albanian terrorist group will appear in Macedonia. And that it will have support among Albanians in Macedonia / Kosovo and perhaps to a lesser extent in Albania. I take no delight in saying this, but I understand the ethnic politics in the region and feel pretty confident this would happen.
Ment I don't think that one can expect goodwill from a country that has had a part of it ripped away. Serbia's reaction is a normal one in international relations.
And on the other hand Kosovo Albanian goodwill towards Kosovo Serbs isn't great is it?
But goodwill is not a prerequsite for getting a deal, a succesful negotiation.
Still, I take some hope from the fact that the longer it takes to sit down, the more likely when we finally do so that it will be a final and lasting settlement.
By then everybody will be sick to death of the situation and lose the will for bravado and chest beating.
One observation. A casual look at this site over the period of a month to a netural might give the appearance that Serbs are more nationalistic than Albanians. However looking at the reaction to this issue, its obvious that its not the case. Generally speaking what we have here is Serbs on the back foot and many are bitter. The second Albanians feel the same way as we have seen with this issue they are behaving in exactly the same way, with very few exceptions.
this is just the beginning wait till the ICJ states that the independence is illegal.Countries will be tripping over themselves to rescind their recognitions.God bless Serbia and our holy church!
I think some people in Skopje forget that there are over 7 Million Albanians in the Balkans and a total of over 9 Million all over the world.
Skopje should understand that the time when they could treat the Albanians this way are over and a new time is comming.
(Nick KS, 2 June 2009 12:33)
So?? Is 20 millions Kurds on Middle East - but nobody thinkink about them. They have only some autonomy in Iraq, but in Turkey 12 millions Kurds have nothing.
bganon:
"Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an
identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own language. The
people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag
is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own,
the national anthem a fudge. We all know it."
Exactly. Kosova is separate only because it cannot be part of
either Serbia or Albania, and its division would be worse than the fudge.
If the K Albanians can gradualy develop a
better stance towards the K Serb minority (as seems to be happening
slowly) and the K Serbs can look after their interests and take part in K
society rather than allowing themselves to be pawns for belgrade, then it
can all eventually work.
But it is, by definition, without its own identity, UNLIKE
Macedonia, where the ethnic Macedonians who the state is built around do
indeed have their own ethnic identity, regardless of what chauvinists in
Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia or Albania may think.
Yes the Albanian minority is very large, but that does not alter the
identity of the Macedonians. The fact that their language is similar to
Bulgarian is no different to the fact that Serbian and Croatian are the
same language, yet who denies two different ethnic identities (and indeed
three, the Bosniaks).
So a Macedonian leader made a mistake. So express your opinions about the
mistake. But frankly, this outpouring of hatred against Macedonia and
Macedonians just because of this mistake is amazing. Love how you insist
on calling the state "FYROM", ie the ridiculous name given it by primitive
Alexander-obsessed Greek nationalists, rather than its chosen name,
Republic of Macedonia. And love the threats to join Greece in vetoing and
blockading Macedonia and join Bulgaria in partitioning it. All because of
a diplomatic slight. For shame.
The Macedonians have their own anti-Albanian nutters and their own bizarre
Alexander obsessions, but this does not make them any worse than any
neighbouring people
Many comments on the subject confirm that there is nothing to do with unique case but with strong wish of one nation to create “super” state, threatening neighbor’s territorial integrity, based on racial superiority (according to one comment on the recent article, only Albanian women can give a birth to real men and women). Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Interesting to see if this happens, however interesting in the threats from camp Albania, wake up EU and see this threat from a so called greater Albania.
Montenegro and even Bulgaria and possibly Hungary, only a fool would think not.
(Canadian, 1 June 2009 16:22)
De-recognition by Hungary is not on the table since - according increasing number of our local Nobel Price winners and brain surgeons - why would Magyar Gárda stop marching at Zemun and not at Prizren or in outskirts of Tokyo?
Explanation.
Some of our "friends" frmly believe, the current situation is only for the time being - till Kosovo won't become as "Rigómezö" a Hungarian "gyepü" (unpopulated border-territory for securing the wholeness of Great Hungary). My guess is, the methods (i.e. how to make Kosovo unpopulated) are suggested to be borrowed from Arrow-Cross.
Under normal circumstances this would be as serious as "Srbija do Tokija" - but if things go "well", after elections next year these geniuses could even sneak-in into parliament.
Why? Because of endless hunger for might of the likely future PM (Viktor Orbán). His "nick" is "mini-duce" for a good reason. He desires to take on the democracy by securing himself for as long as possible - by adopting new laws. This is possible only if he would get a 66.66% majority. If there would be even slightest danger, he won't get the desired 66.66%: he will try to get in the coalition with some really unholy ghosts. Using populist tunes and sometimes even mutually courting with "far right" is not new for V.O. - so I can imagine it to happen.
What to pray for: instead of Kosovo de-recognition, pray for V. Orbán not achieving the magic 66.66% even with the help of "far right". This so-called "absolute victory" is necessary to change the constitution and basic laws.
At this moment V. Orbán does promise, the VAT will be lowered, no property tax, lavish benefits including the 13th month pension will be re-installed. Since we will eat the cake - but still have it, everything is possible, even Magyar Gárda marching back and forth between Sar Planina and Fujiyama.
And even before the election campaign did kick off, the mass media seem to train itself, how to kiss Orbán's rear side. Of course, the very first thing he will do is to sack the entire TV, radio, etc. and now everyone wants to "secure' the future. I think, the backbone was lost around 1849... :(
"I have read countless histories about Greece, and Macedonia, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, but until I started reading this forum I had never heard of Illyria. Not that I'm a scholar in historical studies, but my Western education has offered me a great deal of information, and none of it contained Illyria."
First of all I would really question the validity of your scholar status, or either you should have mentioned that you are a scholar of engineering. Because a social science scholar status who has to do anything with ancient history of Europe would know that. Even in literature, Shakespeare wrote "Twelfth Night"which is a whole play about Illyria. They have had three wars with the Roman Empire, they were the greatest challengers to them for a very long period.
A few Roman Emperors have had Illyrian origins as well.
There are numerous other works by very famous people in the world.
However, its important to mention that their history is very limited to what we have today because of the continuous great works of others over the centuries to destroy it.
Today the President of Macedonia was in Albania meeting the Albanian president. The media reacted very much as he remained silent and was given some lectures by the president of Albania about the current situation in the Balkans, especially the Kosovo Independence and Albanian membership to NATO.
Alban Hard line in this case would mean the Serbian reaction to Montenegrin recognition of Kosovo.
In international relations such a thing is pretty normal but Kosovo Albanian leaders and people here accused Serbia of trying to threaten Montenegro, of using Milosevic style politics by withdrawing ambassador etc.
Now compare that to the reaction here of this story. If anything the Albanian reaction is more hard line / nationalistic. I don't remember hearing how Serbs in Montenegro will take over that country, as Albanans are saying about how they will do that to Macedonia.
Look at these insulting statements about Macedonian identity for example. Excuse me but Kosovo Albanians talking about Macedonia lacking an identity??? What about Kosovo? It does not have its own languange. The people declare themselves as Albanians, Serbs, Roma etc. The national flag is a mish mash, the Albanians have their own flag, the Serbs their own, the national anthem a fudge. We all know it. So tell me please somebody can Kosovo Albanians lecture Macedonians about not having an identity?
Sorry, but this issue is bringing out a lot of stupidity and primativity and I wish a few Albanian voices would tell their 'own' to hold their tounges.
Still, on the other hand this bloodlust, if it eventually metamorphasises into action will only help Serbia...
Alban as for what is being offered at negotiations. There are no negotiations, so nothing has been offered yet. That is not the primary point, the primary point is to support the beginning of real negotiations.
Things will improve beyond all recognition once we have a deal. Until then its the current countless problem after problem....
Why do you Albanians think you're so strong in Macedonia? 25% of the population is not a majority. There may be a lot of you outside our country, but with the rest of our Slavic brothers there is more of us than you. Kosovo was one thing, if the Albanians in Macedonia tried to do what they did in Kosovo it would be their demise. They would lose all support and not only that, but in 2001 the Macedonians were beating the stuffing out of the NLA until NATO jumped in. Next time they might not be there.
And Greeks, stop calling Macedonia "FYROM" or then your country should be called "Former Turkish Territory of Greece". Vardar and Agean Macedonia were all one territory and you know it. Calling us newcomers? I'm sorry I didn't know that 1400 years makes you a newcomer. What does that make Americans then?
Scary reaction from the majority of the K-albanian camp here to what is essentially speculation - barring any official announcement from FYROM.
Threats of violence, intimidation & partition.
One hopes that these views are only the result of immaturity & ignorance.
Regarding the inflated statistics K-albanians like to use, wrote about this a couple of days ago. But seeing as the same figures have been popping-up here (600,000+, 30%, 33%, 40% etc), will summarise again.
2002 census lists 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17% then. Projected population for July 2009 is 2,066,718.
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this population increase is ALL albanian, then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is 26.77%.
And all of these figures are from the CIA World Factbook on Macedonia.
Will not stop those seeking to exaggerate albanian influence in places like FYROM of course by using grossly inflated statistics.. but put's the comments of those who like to use such in their proper context - ie: in the rubbish bin.
Say the words rescind or recognize before Kosovo and the comments come! This is a great way for local newspapers to make $$$. Atleast these type of headings help the economy in some sort of way!
quite interesting, ...is that really an Albanian writing about prematurity here?
I mean, who is showing all symptoms of it here in this forum after all?
who is boasting about birth-rates and "friendship" with the US?
and last but not least, to Goran, who wrote about "independence" without quotation marks...: Gorane, independence is for KiM is mere illusion, you should know that.
the moment the US-occupiers leave southern Serbia, that moment some kids in here will see what their "independence" is really about.
macedonians will once have to ask themselves how far will they bow in serving the interests of albanians in their own country;how much will they tolerate the situation of being a majority undermined by minority... macedonia is a potential future kosovo, all the more so as the US are firmly behind the albanians; that's why macedonia's biggest mistake, as well as montenegro's, was to recognize kosovo, and open the doors to the same kind of scenarios on the home terrain...
johnny:
"Also why is it not ok for us to make threats but its ok for you to make threats." I'm not sure what threats you've percieved from my posting, but I will refrain. At the end threats aren't appropriate in either situation. It would have been a better posed question to say "Why is it ok for you to make threats and not us?": such a phrased question contains the sub sentence of "Why is it ok for you to make threats", to which the answer should always be, 'it's not', however your question makes the assumption that threat making is ok in certain circumstances. That is never appropriate, and simply because it is done by some peoples the world over does not excuse anyone from this inappropriate behaviour. Yet again clarifying my point.
I fully understand that Ancient Macedonia is/was Greece. That is the point. Along with the information Amer provided, 'Illyria being contemporary to Greece', again is compounding the point. When Illyria existed it was part of a greater union. Either Greece or Rome. A nation buried between the two largest European based empires ever (British empire focused on the world as a whole and didn't control much of Europe) that has until recently been buried from the light of day, and needed to be 'rediscovered' as a historical society, cannot have been anything other than a tribe of one of the larger empires. That is okay, and it is the history, but making more out of it is disproportionate chest thumping.
Being a Serb I still don't see this happenning, it's just wishful thinking. If they do this it will cause anther civil war in macedonia because of the Albos (big surprise).
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