Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu has canceled his planned trip to Skopje after the Macedonian side altered the character of the visit, Sejdiu’s cabinet announced.
Denis:
You said:
> Any clue in what year are we living now? From the census of 2002 there is exactly 7 years.
True.
You also said:
> Maybe you should stop getting your info from sausage labels in Poland.
Well actually, got the data from the "CIA World Factbook", which also says that population of FYROM is 2,066,718 (July 2009 estimate). Would assume that they got this figure by extrapolation taking into account births, deaths, immigration & emigration.
So in the 7 year interval since the last census, population has grown by about 44,171 (2,066,718 - 2,022,547).
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this increase is ALL albanian (gives us an upper limit).
Then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is:
(509,083 + 44,171) / 2,066,718 * 100.
= 26.77%
Not 30%.. not 33%.. not 40%.. and certainly not 50%.
But hey, am just a simple soul afterall & not a maths whiz like you.
The comments by the albanians so far have been ominous. If you are so strong, why did you need NATO to rescue you from Serbia. Not to worry, the world changes every 50 years, people like us the Macedonians never forget
Eee, nothing that upset us at least not me since i know who Im. In fact we have science proof that we have very littel slavic blood in us.
Term slav is just used to provoke, and its a evry low level provke almost childish when its obvious that we are not slavs, you can even see that with the naked eye that we look different than typical slavs.
Term slav is used also as political propaganda to suit a few people Greek as exampel paid a lot of money for such propaganda. We on the other hand do not pay money for "false" truth like Greeks.
Of course this propaganda did suit albanians too since they have maped out almost half of Macedonia in there great albanian maps that include parts of Greece and Montenegro too.
Make any sense ? i guess you see the whole picture. Anyway why did Greeks do such a stupid thing ? well they have occupied 30% Macedonian land..
But com on, serious ? have anyone one been in Macedonia ? seen how dark they are and then claim that they are slavs. Slavs have light skin. Antic Macedonians and slves did live side by side for a very long time. One marrie with another and the mixing starts.
Personally I dont care, its proven anyway that we have only minimum slavic blood. Our biggest blood type is from the antic Macedonians, 30%.
The racial slurs are really unnecessary, and the Albanians posting them should stop trying to undermine people using terminology such as "Macedonian Slavs", "the Slavs", "those Slavs" etc. It is being used in a racial connotation that racist and elitist. This is only directed at the Albanians using those terms here, not the majority who I find are respectful people.
Personally i do not hate albanians since i have few of them as friends.
Problem is that the majority of albanians for some reasons do not like macedoninas witch is pity of course.
I do not see any other option than to devide the land this year or the next year or in the future since albaninas have problems to co-living with Macedonians.
War we left behind in the past today we are europiens and allready see a pecefull CZE/SLK deviding in front of me.
I read that some one mention that 30% albanisn live in the west. Its much more, 80-85% of the population in the the west are albanians and thats why pretty easy to divide the nation. Skopje could become since 80% are Macedonians in Skopje. I just hope to avoid a new Jerusalem or Berlin.
Maybe some sort of compromise can be made in Skopje. Half Skopje to Albania (divided by the Vardar river) and Ohrid to Macedonia, simply to much macedonian culture and history in Ohrid to just give it away and 95% are Macedonians in Ohrid.
West is Albanian, Central Macedonia and east of Macedonia live 95% Macedonians and 3% roma Macedonians.
Of course there is one other option if the whole balcan become EU member and if the hate stop exist.
Let the independent scientist at egnea center (Biggest in the world btw) Switzerland do the job with DNA, the world trust them. You just relax and enjoy the results thats where given to public on the days. What ? dont tell me that democratic albania media did not publish it -.
Its was obvious that no one in balcans hade 100% clean blood only a naive human could belive that with all the traffic on the balcans.
Do I have to mention that the only hero you have in fact is slavic, skenderbeg. Half slavic. Just modern evidence.
It was obvious that macedonians like the rest could not be clean blooded, Im just happy that we have more macedonian antic blood (30%) than slavic blood (15%).
Btw modern Greeks made only 30% helenic blood and only 5% antic macedonian blood and 13% slavic blood.
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
I suppose you have some Illyrian DNA stashed somewhere to comparison. How can you analyze anything without having a sample of what you are trying to compare it to?
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years
Boban
Totally agree with you.Slavs & Albanians cannot possibly live together.We'll divide the country and we'll join our blood brothers in kosova,albania & montenegro.
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
(Dulo, 29 May 2009 03:39)
"Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
(ina caci, 29 May 2009 15:51)"
Some countries are still living and thinking in 1,000 BC. This must be the result of many years of isolation and a state-of-the-art education system. I do not know whether to laugh, to shake my head in disbelieve, or to become scarred that this kind of thinking still exists in 21st century Europe.
But then what else could be expected.
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
The name Albania is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age.
SOURCE: The Library of Congress - ALBANIA - A Country Study
Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
Albanian birth rate is smaller today than 10 years ago.
All I read is insults and threat, however not surperised at all.
Ivanov already stated that if Albanians threaten Macedonia one more time then Macedonia will bring back the recognition.
Threat against Macedonia have not work for 4000 years and will not work today either.
Cant stop laugh when i see albanians call us slaves when in reality albanians have more slavic blood than Macedonians.Recently proven by http://www.igenea.com/.
Macedonians have 30% old Macedonian blood and only 15% slavic blood.
Only 1/4 of the population in Macedonian call them selfs Albanians. In reality only 400.000 insted of 500.000. You forced a lot of Turks to write them selfs as albanians.
1.4 milion is Macedonians and 200.000 more vote for Macedonian partys. Thats 1.600.000 who support Macedonia.
Part from that 150.000 Macedonian live in Greece, 100.000 in Bulgaria, 50.000 in Albania. And 200.000 Australia/Canada/USA. + 150.000 spread in europe.
Albanians 400.000 in Macedonia, 400.000 in Greece, only 1.5 milion in Albania (Rest are Greeks and Macedonias) and 1.7 milion in Kosovo.
We give you everything and you keep on stabbing us in the back so no longer any idea to live together.
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years.
#2: "..especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders.."
#8: "..There is 600 thousand of us there.."
#10: "..About 40% Ethnic Albanian in FYROM.."
#12: "..30% are Albanians.."
#15: "..Macedonia is half Albanian anyways.."
#26: "..FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians.."
Last census (2002) shows 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17%.
One wonders where the posters above get their figures from? Albanian cereal boxes?
Of course, with such a high birth-rate, one could expect the education budget to be stretched somewhat - leading to a deterioration in basic skills like simple arithmetic..
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
(bganon, 28 May 2009 18:34)
What are the double standards we are talking about here?
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
Macedonia is a sovereign country, and as such reserves the right to do what's best in its interests. Once the albanians of the serbian province of kosovo complete the demarcation of the border with Macedonia, perhaps then we can talk. Threatening us will not bring you peace, my albanian brothers.
I'm not exactly sure why Albanians boasting of their levels of procreation is somehow understood to be a good thing. I mean there needs to be some other kind of comeback to being slighted than "oh yeah? well in a generation or two, we'll outbreed you."
Threatening comments.
Comments full of boastfulness and arrogance.
Supremacy based on over population rather than quality of life, education and desire for peaceful
co-existence.
It is interesting that the Albanians call FYROM a pseudo state while it is a UN member, while “Kosovo” is the real pseudo state by not being a UN member (something it will not be as long as there is a Russia and a China). In addition, it seems that Albanians have no respect for the territorial integrity of FYROM and Serbia, while they keep talking about the territorial integrity of their pseudo state. Of course Macedonia was another famous invention of Tito to only cause more trouble in the future while he would be long gone.
Now is the time to show the world what dignity means: Sejdiu et al. should cancel the recognition of "Kosova" independence they got from "that" little insignificant country!
The tons of "Thank you Macedonia" on that occasion are successfully cancelled already.
Good on President Sejdiu!
Time has gone when slavs understimates the Albanians. The time is working on Albanian side you like it or don't like it. FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians whom can make or break that country. So more respect othewise regret will follow.
Poor sejdiu thinks he's really a somebody.
(Ratko, 28 May 2009 13:03)
Trouble is Ratko, in reality, he's a nobody. Just a pawn in the wider game.
Secondly, all the bluster, hubris, threats and chest beating by the Albanians towards the Macedonians is showing them up what a bunch of unruly children that they are.
If they think that they will lop off half of Macedonia, they have another thing coming.
Albanian politicians (Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia) should indicate the spot to this pseudo-state and should feel no inferiority towards FYROM.. In fact, the impact of the Albanians to Macedonia should be much bigger than Serbia’s.
It is interesting that the Fyrom’s church has not been recognized by Serbia, Bulgaria does not recognize its nation, Greece, the name. Only we Albanians recognixe everything to Fyrom. Probably, even us should not recognize them anything, so that they come to their senses and remember that they are surrounded by 7 million Albanians and can not behave with them as once they did at the time of Yugoslavia.
Sejdiu is trying to achieve a reputation of being strong. In actual fact when it comes down to it he will do whatever the internationals tell him to.
Still, now that Serbia was accused of bullying tactics concerning its neighbours, its clear to see that Kosovo Albanians are happy to do the same thing - with one underlying threat of a much nastier nature - do as we say or in a few years we will take you over.
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
Here's the deal. FYROM uses Albania's ports for free, no taxes no nothing. We allow them that as a sign of good gesture and friendly relations. All we need to do is deny them access for a couple of months. Especially now in the summer, when about every Albanian family from FYROM has members vacationing in Albania, and they don't need a visa to get in and out of Albania. Who do you think will suffer the most from that, the Slavs or the Albanians. Dumb move FYROM. You allienate Albanians we will side with Greece for every issue against you, really dumb move. For your own sake you better hope this is your last dumb move.
I must ask most of the posters here why exactly they are writing so aggresively about this issue? Why are they so angered and why do they continue with rhetoric that has a very obvious violent undercurrent?
The Minister from Macedonia made a descision to alter the earlier arrangement with the Minister from Kosovo. It would seem to me that the Minister from Kosovo should be delighted to have the audience of his counterpart regardless of the nature and location of the meeting. Sometimes it takes mutually friendly gestures, but it seems that the Kosovo Minister is not happy unless things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
I feel very sad for the Two-Steps-Forward-One-Step-Back progress that the Balkan Penninsula is making. If the dialogue on the forum is any indication whatsoever, then it is clear that violence is in the near future. I was under the impression that Kosovo was a democratic nation, populated with peoples that believe in democratic process and rights of equality. These verbal attacks and predictions of violence as well as open resentment against a country, that has not shown any ill will is beyond reprehensible in the overall view of the West's form of democracy.
I would hope that sooner rather than later these voices are silenced forever, from all sides, internal and external to the situation, that the voices of rationalle sound loud and clear over the heads of these nationalistic, pigheaded desenters of freedom.
From the Albanian comments I can taste a lot of anger, because they do not feel respected. As a result they start threatening all kinds of things. Very usual and predictable behavior. Even openly talking about the dismantling of the FYROM and partitioning between Albania, Greece and Bulgaria seems like another recipe for a future regional war. Who needs enemies like the US when you have neighbors like the Albanians.
Not to worry my friends. Macedonia is half Albanian anyways, and Albanians will be the majority in a few decades. We always win by population growth alone. It's called a soft and unnoticed victory :)
"Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect."
Tadic blackmailed them with Church help.
FYROM slavs have problems with their church, ethnicity, name, and everything else. They are very confused. Anyway, 30% are Albanians, FYROM can be safely ignored.
In 50 years Macedonian slavs will be the minority in FYROM, and with Greece and Bulgaria claiming all the symbols of their statehood, these guys are really shortsighted to ignore the albanians. One day albanians might ignore them....
Macedonia on the other hand is a land locked country and it needs access to the sea, especially west, towards Albania's ports. Greece already is blocking their access south to the port of Thessaloniki, unless they agree to become Greece's colony.
But I believe this was a move to please the serbs for now. Every sane mind knows that sooner or later Kosovo's president will visit Macedonia and will be received properly, but things need to calm down first. That's all.
As far as FYROM goes, us Albanians are only bidding for time. There is 600 thousand of us there, and only 1.2 million FYROM Slavs. Our birthrate is three times higher than theirs. Now do the math folks. How many years will it take before George Ivanov starts speaking Albanian?
That's what happens when someone is forced to recognize but don't actually believes in it.
Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect. Same thing for all those other countries that recognized.
The President did what was necessary, "giving those relations the weight and gravity they deserve". It was about time to show little FYROM that they cannot play dirty games with Kosovo, especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders that loves Kosovo as nothing else in the world. Instead of trying building bridges to secure it own future they wanted to show muscles, 1 million Macedonian to 7 million Albanians.
Shaking hands with Sejdu results in very bad pictures anyway. They can be viewed even when this whole farce of creating a second Albanian State on stolen territory is over.
As far as FYROM goes, us Albanians are only bidding for time. There is 600 thousand of us there, and only 1.2 million FYROM Slavs. Our birthrate is three times higher than theirs. Now do the math folks. How many years will it take before George Ivanov starts speaking Albanian?
The President did what was necessary, "giving those relations the weight and gravity they deserve". It was about time to show little FYROM that they cannot play dirty games with Kosovo, especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders that loves Kosovo as nothing else in the world. Instead of trying building bridges to secure it own future they wanted to show muscles, 1 million Macedonian to 7 million Albanians.
That's what happens when someone is forced to recognize but don't actually believes in it.
Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect. Same thing for all those other countries that recognized.
In 50 years Macedonian slavs will be the minority in FYROM, and with Greece and Bulgaria claiming all the symbols of their statehood, these guys are really shortsighted to ignore the albanians. One day albanians might ignore them....
Macedonia on the other hand is a land locked country and it needs access to the sea, especially west, towards Albania's ports. Greece already is blocking their access south to the port of Thessaloniki, unless they agree to become Greece's colony.
But I believe this was a move to please the serbs for now. Every sane mind knows that sooner or later Kosovo's president will visit Macedonia and will be received properly, but things need to calm down first. That's all.
Shaking hands with Sejdu results in very bad pictures anyway. They can be viewed even when this whole farce of creating a second Albanian State on stolen territory is over.
Poor sejdiu thinks he's really a somebody.
(Ratko, 28 May 2009 13:03)
Trouble is Ratko, in reality, he's a nobody. Just a pawn in the wider game.
Secondly, all the bluster, hubris, threats and chest beating by the Albanians towards the Macedonians is showing them up what a bunch of unruly children that they are.
If they think that they will lop off half of Macedonia, they have another thing coming.
Threatening comments.
Comments full of boastfulness and arrogance.
Supremacy based on over population rather than quality of life, education and desire for peaceful
co-existence.
I'm not exactly sure why Albanians boasting of their levels of procreation is somehow understood to be a good thing. I mean there needs to be some other kind of comeback to being slighted than "oh yeah? well in a generation or two, we'll outbreed you."
Not to worry my friends. Macedonia is half Albanian anyways, and Albanians will be the majority in a few decades. We always win by population growth alone. It's called a soft and unnoticed victory :)
From the Albanian comments I can taste a lot of anger, because they do not feel respected. As a result they start threatening all kinds of things. Very usual and predictable behavior. Even openly talking about the dismantling of the FYROM and partitioning between Albania, Greece and Bulgaria seems like another recipe for a future regional war. Who needs enemies like the US when you have neighbors like the Albanians.
Sejdiu is trying to achieve a reputation of being strong. In actual fact when it comes down to it he will do whatever the internationals tell him to.
Still, now that Serbia was accused of bullying tactics concerning its neighbours, its clear to see that Kosovo Albanians are happy to do the same thing - with one underlying threat of a much nastier nature - do as we say or in a few years we will take you over.
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
"Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect."
Tadic blackmailed them with Church help.
FYROM slavs have problems with their church, ethnicity, name, and everything else. They are very confused. Anyway, 30% are Albanians, FYROM can be safely ignored.
Now is the time to show the world what dignity means: Sejdiu et al. should cancel the recognition of "Kosova" independence they got from "that" little insignificant country!
The tons of "Thank you Macedonia" on that occasion are successfully cancelled already.
Here's the deal. FYROM uses Albania's ports for free, no taxes no nothing. We allow them that as a sign of good gesture and friendly relations. All we need to do is deny them access for a couple of months. Especially now in the summer, when about every Albanian family from FYROM has members vacationing in Albania, and they don't need a visa to get in and out of Albania. Who do you think will suffer the most from that, the Slavs or the Albanians. Dumb move FYROM. You allienate Albanians we will side with Greece for every issue against you, really dumb move. For your own sake you better hope this is your last dumb move.
Albanian politicians (Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia) should indicate the spot to this pseudo-state and should feel no inferiority towards FYROM.. In fact, the impact of the Albanians to Macedonia should be much bigger than Serbia’s.
It is interesting that the Fyrom’s church has not been recognized by Serbia, Bulgaria does not recognize its nation, Greece, the name. Only we Albanians recognixe everything to Fyrom. Probably, even us should not recognize them anything, so that they come to their senses and remember that they are surrounded by 7 million Albanians and can not behave with them as once they did at the time of Yugoslavia.
Good on President Sejdiu!
Time has gone when slavs understimates the Albanians. The time is working on Albanian side you like it or don't like it. FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians whom can make or break that country. So more respect othewise regret will follow.
It is interesting that the Albanians call FYROM a pseudo state while it is a UN member, while “Kosovo” is the real pseudo state by not being a UN member (something it will not be as long as there is a Russia and a China). In addition, it seems that Albanians have no respect for the territorial integrity of FYROM and Serbia, while they keep talking about the territorial integrity of their pseudo state. Of course Macedonia was another famous invention of Tito to only cause more trouble in the future while he would be long gone.
I must ask most of the posters here why exactly they are writing so aggresively about this issue? Why are they so angered and why do they continue with rhetoric that has a very obvious violent undercurrent?
The Minister from Macedonia made a descision to alter the earlier arrangement with the Minister from Kosovo. It would seem to me that the Minister from Kosovo should be delighted to have the audience of his counterpart regardless of the nature and location of the meeting. Sometimes it takes mutually friendly gestures, but it seems that the Kosovo Minister is not happy unless things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
I feel very sad for the Two-Steps-Forward-One-Step-Back progress that the Balkan Penninsula is making. If the dialogue on the forum is any indication whatsoever, then it is clear that violence is in the near future. I was under the impression that Kosovo was a democratic nation, populated with peoples that believe in democratic process and rights of equality. These verbal attacks and predictions of violence as well as open resentment against a country, that has not shown any ill will is beyond reprehensible in the overall view of the West's form of democracy.
I would hope that sooner rather than later these voices are silenced forever, from all sides, internal and external to the situation, that the voices of rationalle sound loud and clear over the heads of these nationalistic, pigheaded desenters of freedom.
Macedonia is a sovereign country, and as such reserves the right to do what's best in its interests. Once the albanians of the serbian province of kosovo complete the demarcation of the border with Macedonia, perhaps then we can talk. Threatening us will not bring you peace, my albanian brothers.
#2: "..especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders.."
#8: "..There is 600 thousand of us there.."
#10: "..About 40% Ethnic Albanian in FYROM.."
#12: "..30% are Albanians.."
#15: "..Macedonia is half Albanian anyways.."
#26: "..FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians.."
Last census (2002) shows 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17%.
One wonders where the posters above get their figures from? Albanian cereal boxes?
Of course, with such a high birth-rate, one could expect the education budget to be stretched somewhat - leading to a deterioration in basic skills like simple arithmetic..
"Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
(ina caci, 29 May 2009 15:51)"
Some countries are still living and thinking in 1,000 BC. This must be the result of many years of isolation and a state-of-the-art education system. I do not know whether to laugh, to shake my head in disbelieve, or to become scarred that this kind of thinking still exists in 21st century Europe.
But then what else could be expected.
The comments by the albanians so far have been ominous. If you are so strong, why did you need NATO to rescue you from Serbia. Not to worry, the world changes every 50 years, people like us the Macedonians never forget
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
The name Albania is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age.
SOURCE: The Library of Congress - ALBANIA - A Country Study
Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
I suppose you have some Illyrian DNA stashed somewhere to comparison. How can you analyze anything without having a sample of what you are trying to compare it to?
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
(Dulo, 29 May 2009 03:39)
Albanian birth rate is smaller today than 10 years ago.
All I read is insults and threat, however not surperised at all.
Ivanov already stated that if Albanians threaten Macedonia one more time then Macedonia will bring back the recognition.
Threat against Macedonia have not work for 4000 years and will not work today either.
Cant stop laugh when i see albanians call us slaves when in reality albanians have more slavic blood than Macedonians.Recently proven by http://www.igenea.com/.
Macedonians have 30% old Macedonian blood and only 15% slavic blood.
Only 1/4 of the population in Macedonian call them selfs Albanians. In reality only 400.000 insted of 500.000. You forced a lot of Turks to write them selfs as albanians.
1.4 milion is Macedonians and 200.000 more vote for Macedonian partys. Thats 1.600.000 who support Macedonia.
Part from that 150.000 Macedonian live in Greece, 100.000 in Bulgaria, 50.000 in Albania. And 200.000 Australia/Canada/USA. + 150.000 spread in europe.
Albanians 400.000 in Macedonia, 400.000 in Greece, only 1.5 milion in Albania (Rest are Greeks and Macedonias) and 1.7 milion in Kosovo.
We give you everything and you keep on stabbing us in the back so no longer any idea to live together.
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years.
Personally i do not hate albanians since i have few of them as friends.
Problem is that the majority of albanians for some reasons do not like macedoninas witch is pity of course.
I do not see any other option than to devide the land this year or the next year or in the future since albaninas have problems to co-living with Macedonians.
War we left behind in the past today we are europiens and allready see a pecefull CZE/SLK deviding in front of me.
I read that some one mention that 30% albanisn live in the west. Its much more, 80-85% of the population in the the west are albanians and thats why pretty easy to divide the nation. Skopje could become since 80% are Macedonians in Skopje. I just hope to avoid a new Jerusalem or Berlin.
Maybe some sort of compromise can be made in Skopje. Half Skopje to Albania (divided by the Vardar river) and Ohrid to Macedonia, simply to much macedonian culture and history in Ohrid to just give it away and 95% are Macedonians in Ohrid.
West is Albanian, Central Macedonia and east of Macedonia live 95% Macedonians and 3% roma Macedonians.
Of course there is one other option if the whole balcan become EU member and if the hate stop exist.
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
(bganon, 28 May 2009 18:34)
What are the double standards we are talking about here?
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
The racial slurs are really unnecessary, and the Albanians posting them should stop trying to undermine people using terminology such as "Macedonian Slavs", "the Slavs", "those Slavs" etc. It is being used in a racial connotation that racist and elitist. This is only directed at the Albanians using those terms here, not the majority who I find are respectful people.
Denis:
You said:
> Any clue in what year are we living now? From the census of 2002 there is exactly 7 years.
True.
You also said:
> Maybe you should stop getting your info from sausage labels in Poland.
Well actually, got the data from the "CIA World Factbook", which also says that population of FYROM is 2,066,718 (July 2009 estimate). Would assume that they got this figure by extrapolation taking into account births, deaths, immigration & emigration.
So in the 7 year interval since the last census, population has grown by about 44,171 (2,066,718 - 2,022,547).
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this increase is ALL albanian (gives us an upper limit).
Then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is:
(509,083 + 44,171) / 2,066,718 * 100.
= 26.77%
Not 30%.. not 33%.. not 40%.. and certainly not 50%.
But hey, am just a simple soul afterall & not a maths whiz like you.
Let the independent scientist at egnea center (Biggest in the world btw) Switzerland do the job with DNA, the world trust them. You just relax and enjoy the results thats where given to public on the days. What ? dont tell me that democratic albania media did not publish it -.
Its was obvious that no one in balcans hade 100% clean blood only a naive human could belive that with all the traffic on the balcans.
Do I have to mention that the only hero you have in fact is slavic, skenderbeg. Half slavic. Just modern evidence.
It was obvious that macedonians like the rest could not be clean blooded, Im just happy that we have more macedonian antic blood (30%) than slavic blood (15%).
Btw modern Greeks made only 30% helenic blood and only 5% antic macedonian blood and 13% slavic blood.
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years
Boban
Totally agree with you.Slavs & Albanians cannot possibly live together.We'll divide the country and we'll join our blood brothers in kosova,albania & montenegro.
Eee, nothing that upset us at least not me since i know who Im. In fact we have science proof that we have very littel slavic blood in us.
Term slav is just used to provoke, and its a evry low level provke almost childish when its obvious that we are not slavs, you can even see that with the naked eye that we look different than typical slavs.
Term slav is used also as political propaganda to suit a few people Greek as exampel paid a lot of money for such propaganda. We on the other hand do not pay money for "false" truth like Greeks.
Of course this propaganda did suit albanians too since they have maped out almost half of Macedonia in there great albanian maps that include parts of Greece and Montenegro too.
Make any sense ? i guess you see the whole picture. Anyway why did Greeks do such a stupid thing ? well they have occupied 30% Macedonian land..
But com on, serious ? have anyone one been in Macedonia ? seen how dark they are and then claim that they are slavs. Slavs have light skin. Antic Macedonians and slves did live side by side for a very long time. One marrie with another and the mixing starts.
Personally I dont care, its proven anyway that we have only minimum slavic blood. Our biggest blood type is from the antic Macedonians, 30%.
Shaking hands with Sejdu results in very bad pictures anyway. They can be viewed even when this whole farce of creating a second Albanian State on stolen territory is over.
That's what happens when someone is forced to recognize but don't actually believes in it.
Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect. Same thing for all those other countries that recognized.
The President did what was necessary, "giving those relations the weight and gravity they deserve". It was about time to show little FYROM that they cannot play dirty games with Kosovo, especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders that loves Kosovo as nothing else in the world. Instead of trying building bridges to secure it own future they wanted to show muscles, 1 million Macedonian to 7 million Albanians.
As far as FYROM goes, us Albanians are only bidding for time. There is 600 thousand of us there, and only 1.2 million FYROM Slavs. Our birthrate is three times higher than theirs. Now do the math folks. How many years will it take before George Ivanov starts speaking Albanian?
From the Albanian comments I can taste a lot of anger, because they do not feel respected. As a result they start threatening all kinds of things. Very usual and predictable behavior. Even openly talking about the dismantling of the FYROM and partitioning between Albania, Greece and Bulgaria seems like another recipe for a future regional war. Who needs enemies like the US when you have neighbors like the Albanians.
Not to worry my friends. Macedonia is half Albanian anyways, and Albanians will be the majority in a few decades. We always win by population growth alone. It's called a soft and unnoticed victory :)
In 50 years Macedonian slavs will be the minority in FYROM, and with Greece and Bulgaria claiming all the symbols of their statehood, these guys are really shortsighted to ignore the albanians. One day albanians might ignore them....
Macedonia on the other hand is a land locked country and it needs access to the sea, especially west, towards Albania's ports. Greece already is blocking their access south to the port of Thessaloniki, unless they agree to become Greece's colony.
But I believe this was a move to please the serbs for now. Every sane mind knows that sooner or later Kosovo's president will visit Macedonia and will be received properly, but things need to calm down first. That's all.
Sejdiu is trying to achieve a reputation of being strong. In actual fact when it comes down to it he will do whatever the internationals tell him to.
Still, now that Serbia was accused of bullying tactics concerning its neighbours, its clear to see that Kosovo Albanians are happy to do the same thing - with one underlying threat of a much nastier nature - do as we say or in a few years we will take you over.
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
Here's the deal. FYROM uses Albania's ports for free, no taxes no nothing. We allow them that as a sign of good gesture and friendly relations. All we need to do is deny them access for a couple of months. Especially now in the summer, when about every Albanian family from FYROM has members vacationing in Albania, and they don't need a visa to get in and out of Albania. Who do you think will suffer the most from that, the Slavs or the Albanians. Dumb move FYROM. You allienate Albanians we will side with Greece for every issue against you, really dumb move. For your own sake you better hope this is your last dumb move.
Albanian politicians (Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia) should indicate the spot to this pseudo-state and should feel no inferiority towards FYROM.. In fact, the impact of the Albanians to Macedonia should be much bigger than Serbia’s.
It is interesting that the Fyrom’s church has not been recognized by Serbia, Bulgaria does not recognize its nation, Greece, the name. Only we Albanians recognixe everything to Fyrom. Probably, even us should not recognize them anything, so that they come to their senses and remember that they are surrounded by 7 million Albanians and can not behave with them as once they did at the time of Yugoslavia.
Good on President Sejdiu!
Time has gone when slavs understimates the Albanians. The time is working on Albanian side you like it or don't like it. FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians whom can make or break that country. So more respect othewise regret will follow.
"Kosovo has Macedonias recognition but not respect."
Tadic blackmailed them with Church help.
FYROM slavs have problems with their church, ethnicity, name, and everything else. They are very confused. Anyway, 30% are Albanians, FYROM can be safely ignored.
Poor sejdiu thinks he's really a somebody.
(Ratko, 28 May 2009 13:03)
Trouble is Ratko, in reality, he's a nobody. Just a pawn in the wider game.
Secondly, all the bluster, hubris, threats and chest beating by the Albanians towards the Macedonians is showing them up what a bunch of unruly children that they are.
If they think that they will lop off half of Macedonia, they have another thing coming.
It is interesting that the Albanians call FYROM a pseudo state while it is a UN member, while “Kosovo” is the real pseudo state by not being a UN member (something it will not be as long as there is a Russia and a China). In addition, it seems that Albanians have no respect for the territorial integrity of FYROM and Serbia, while they keep talking about the territorial integrity of their pseudo state. Of course Macedonia was another famous invention of Tito to only cause more trouble in the future while he would be long gone.
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
The name Albania is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës. The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age.
SOURCE: The Library of Congress - ALBANIA - A Country Study
Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
I'm not exactly sure why Albanians boasting of their levels of procreation is somehow understood to be a good thing. I mean there needs to be some other kind of comeback to being slighted than "oh yeah? well in a generation or two, we'll outbreed you."
Macedonia is a sovereign country, and as such reserves the right to do what's best in its interests. Once the albanians of the serbian province of kosovo complete the demarcation of the border with Macedonia, perhaps then we can talk. Threatening us will not bring you peace, my albanian brothers.
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
(Dulo, 29 May 2009 03:39)
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years
Boban
Totally agree with you.Slavs & Albanians cannot possibly live together.We'll divide the country and we'll join our blood brothers in kosova,albania & montenegro.
Albanian birth rate is smaller today than 10 years ago.
All I read is insults and threat, however not surperised at all.
Ivanov already stated that if Albanians threaten Macedonia one more time then Macedonia will bring back the recognition.
Threat against Macedonia have not work for 4000 years and will not work today either.
Cant stop laugh when i see albanians call us slaves when in reality albanians have more slavic blood than Macedonians.Recently proven by http://www.igenea.com/.
Macedonians have 30% old Macedonian blood and only 15% slavic blood.
Only 1/4 of the population in Macedonian call them selfs Albanians. In reality only 400.000 insted of 500.000. You forced a lot of Turks to write them selfs as albanians.
1.4 milion is Macedonians and 200.000 more vote for Macedonian partys. Thats 1.600.000 who support Macedonia.
Part from that 150.000 Macedonian live in Greece, 100.000 in Bulgaria, 50.000 in Albania. And 200.000 Australia/Canada/USA. + 150.000 spread in europe.
Albanians 400.000 in Macedonia, 400.000 in Greece, only 1.5 milion in Albania (Rest are Greeks and Macedonias) and 1.7 milion in Kosovo.
We give you everything and you keep on stabbing us in the back so no longer any idea to live together.
Better to divide in all calmness like CZE/SLK. It will happen sooner or later anyway so better to divide the nation in the next few years instead to wait 20 or 30 years.
I must ask most of the posters here why exactly they are writing so aggresively about this issue? Why are they so angered and why do they continue with rhetoric that has a very obvious violent undercurrent?
The Minister from Macedonia made a descision to alter the earlier arrangement with the Minister from Kosovo. It would seem to me that the Minister from Kosovo should be delighted to have the audience of his counterpart regardless of the nature and location of the meeting. Sometimes it takes mutually friendly gestures, but it seems that the Kosovo Minister is not happy unless things are exactly the way he wants them to be.
I feel very sad for the Two-Steps-Forward-One-Step-Back progress that the Balkan Penninsula is making. If the dialogue on the forum is any indication whatsoever, then it is clear that violence is in the near future. I was under the impression that Kosovo was a democratic nation, populated with peoples that believe in democratic process and rights of equality. These verbal attacks and predictions of violence as well as open resentment against a country, that has not shown any ill will is beyond reprehensible in the overall view of the West's form of democracy.
I would hope that sooner rather than later these voices are silenced forever, from all sides, internal and external to the situation, that the voices of rationalle sound loud and clear over the heads of these nationalistic, pigheaded desenters of freedom.
Threatening comments.
Comments full of boastfulness and arrogance.
Supremacy based on over population rather than quality of life, education and desire for peaceful
co-existence.
"Fyrom, don't mess with Albanians cause only Albanians give birth to real man and women.
(ina caci, 29 May 2009 15:51)"
Some countries are still living and thinking in 1,000 BC. This must be the result of many years of isolation and a state-of-the-art education system. I do not know whether to laugh, to shake my head in disbelieve, or to become scarred that this kind of thinking still exists in 21st century Europe.
But then what else could be expected.
#2: "..especially when you have 30 % Albanian within your borders.."
#8: "..There is 600 thousand of us there.."
#10: "..About 40% Ethnic Albanian in FYROM.."
#12: "..30% are Albanians.."
#15: "..Macedonia is half Albanian anyways.."
#26: "..FYROM must realise that 1/3 of its populations are Albanians.."
Last census (2002) shows 509,083 albanians out of a population of 2,022,547. Thats 25.17%.
One wonders where the posters above get their figures from? Albanian cereal boxes?
Of course, with such a high birth-rate, one could expect the education budget to be stretched somewhat - leading to a deterioration in basic skills like simple arithmetic..
Boban, you are making me laugh with your comment. Albanians have slavic blood??? Analysis have shown Albanians are homogenic, true descendents of Illyrians.
I suppose you have some Illyrian DNA stashed somewhere to comparison. How can you analyze anything without having a sample of what you are trying to compare it to?
Now is the time to show the world what dignity means: Sejdiu et al. should cancel the recognition of "Kosova" independence they got from "that" little insignificant country!
The tons of "Thank you Macedonia" on that occasion are successfully cancelled already.
As posters know I do not have an ideological or ethnic problem with Albanians, but I do have a problem with double standards.
(bganon, 28 May 2009 18:34)
What are the double standards we are talking about here?
Perhaps making the every posible foreign embassador in belgrade a 'person non grata', just to be recalled a few months later, and that with the 'red carpet'.
Perhaps, these are the double standards you had in mind?
The racial slurs are really unnecessary, and the Albanians posting them should stop trying to undermine people using terminology such as "Macedonian Slavs", "the Slavs", "those Slavs" etc. It is being used in a racial connotation that racist and elitist. This is only directed at the Albanians using those terms here, not the majority who I find are respectful people.
The comments by the albanians so far have been ominous. If you are so strong, why did you need NATO to rescue you from Serbia. Not to worry, the world changes every 50 years, people like us the Macedonians never forget
Let the independent scientist at egnea center (Biggest in the world btw) Switzerland do the job with DNA, the world trust them. You just relax and enjoy the results thats where given to public on the days. What ? dont tell me that democratic albania media did not publish it -.
Its was obvious that no one in balcans hade 100% clean blood only a naive human could belive that with all the traffic on the balcans.
Do I have to mention that the only hero you have in fact is slavic, skenderbeg. Half slavic. Just modern evidence.
It was obvious that macedonians like the rest could not be clean blooded, Im just happy that we have more macedonian antic blood (30%) than slavic blood (15%).
Btw modern Greeks made only 30% helenic blood and only 5% antic macedonian blood and 13% slavic blood.
Personally i do not hate albanians since i have few of them as friends.
Problem is that the majority of albanians for some reasons do not like macedoninas witch is pity of course.
I do not see any other option than to devide the land this year or the next year or in the future since albaninas have problems to co-living with Macedonians.
War we left behind in the past today we are europiens and allready see a pecefull CZE/SLK deviding in front of me.
I read that some one mention that 30% albanisn live in the west. Its much more, 80-85% of the population in the the west are albanians and thats why pretty easy to divide the nation. Skopje could become since 80% are Macedonians in Skopje. I just hope to avoid a new Jerusalem or Berlin.
Maybe some sort of compromise can be made in Skopje. Half Skopje to Albania (divided by the Vardar river) and Ohrid to Macedonia, simply to much macedonian culture and history in Ohrid to just give it away and 95% are Macedonians in Ohrid.
West is Albanian, Central Macedonia and east of Macedonia live 95% Macedonians and 3% roma Macedonians.
Of course there is one other option if the whole balcan become EU member and if the hate stop exist.
Eee, nothing that upset us at least not me since i know who Im. In fact we have science proof that we have very littel slavic blood in us.
Term slav is just used to provoke, and its a evry low level provke almost childish when its obvious that we are not slavs, you can even see that with the naked eye that we look different than typical slavs.
Term slav is used also as political propaganda to suit a few people Greek as exampel paid a lot of money for such propaganda. We on the other hand do not pay money for "false" truth like Greeks.
Of course this propaganda did suit albanians too since they have maped out almost half of Macedonia in there great albanian maps that include parts of Greece and Montenegro too.
Make any sense ? i guess you see the whole picture. Anyway why did Greeks do such a stupid thing ? well they have occupied 30% Macedonian land..
But com on, serious ? have anyone one been in Macedonia ? seen how dark they are and then claim that they are slavs. Slavs have light skin. Antic Macedonians and slves did live side by side for a very long time. One marrie with another and the mixing starts.
Personally I dont care, its proven anyway that we have only minimum slavic blood. Our biggest blood type is from the antic Macedonians, 30%.
Denis:
You said:
> Any clue in what year are we living now? From the census of 2002 there is exactly 7 years.
True.
You also said:
> Maybe you should stop getting your info from sausage labels in Poland.
Well actually, got the data from the "CIA World Factbook", which also says that population of FYROM is 2,066,718 (July 2009 estimate). Would assume that they got this figure by extrapolation taking into account births, deaths, immigration & emigration.
So in the 7 year interval since the last census, population has grown by about 44,171 (2,066,718 - 2,022,547).
Now let's assume for the sake of argument that this increase is ALL albanian (gives us an upper limit).
Then upper estimate of albanian % as of July 2009 is:
(509,083 + 44,171) / 2,066,718 * 100.
= 26.77%
Not 30%.. not 33%.. not 40%.. and certainly not 50%.
But hey, am just a simple soul afterall & not a maths whiz like you.
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