46

Sunday, 17.05.2009.

16:45

"Kosovo is about secession, not self-determination"

The Kosovo issue is not a case of self-determination but of secession, says Algerian Ambassador to Belgrade Abdelkader Mesdoua.

Izvor: FoNet

"Kosovo is about secession, not self-determination" IMAGE SOURCE
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46 Komentari

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.'

Ok, it's not automatic, but every vote they've held so far has been in favor of continuing commonwealth status (they have to vote for statehood before Congress can take up the question). Recent polls have shown a majority in favor of statehood (I learn from google), but there's still nothing official.

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(blero, 18 May 2009 11:41)

Serbia was there.
Serbia hosted last year's as well.

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

"What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).
(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)"

That is misleading if not incorrect. It was hardly that simple. Migration between Scotland and Ireland goes back to the days of the celts and picts in the middle ages. Do you know that 20% of the population of Scotland is of Irish decent? My name would suggest that I am in that 20%. But yes, at one time there was a few hundred thousand lowland Scots went to the plantations in the north of Ireland. If you see that as a colonial invasion then that was a big part of the problem that NI became.

As for the partition. Well, rock and hard place springs to mind. A majority in the north were protestant and threatening to take up arms. Then in the 60's and 70's civil rights abuses contributed to further discontent about the situation. It was a big mess and no one really had a solution.

It took some brave men to take a bitter pill on both sides to gain the relative peace there is now. I hope it all works out. Maybe there is a lesson there - without talk and discussion there cannot be peace.

And Ben. Scotland is a country. Kosovo isn't. That's the difference.

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Milan

pre 14 godina

"Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).
(blero, 18 May 2009 20:32)"

In 1912 we RECAPTURED Kosovo, part of our historic serbian country from turkish invaders hands. In 1921 UK hold historic irish lands in their hands.

And UK created their Northern Ireland colony on irish lands (like Kosovo created by Western Powers as their colony on serbian lands).

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Blake

pre 14 godina

This whole mess stems from Western hypocrisy. Self determination and territorial integrity are two mutually exclusive concepts which can not co-exist. If you want peace in the Balkans one concept or the other must govern. If you choose self-determination then Albania can have southern Kosovo, the Presevo valley, western Macedonia etc..., and Serbia can have northern Kosovo, and Republika Srpska. If you choose territorial integrity then Kosovo stays in Serbia and Republika Srpska stays in Bosnia. It's simple, re-draw the borders along ethnic lines or keep the existing borders as presently recognized by the UN (with Kosovo as part of Serbia).

The West is inciting violence in the Balkans by recognizing the right to self-determination for some people and not others, and the right of territorial integrity for some and not others. Where was the SFRY's right to territorial integrity? Where is the Bosnian-Serb, the Bosnian-Croat, or the Presevo-Albanian's right to self-determination?

The West has involved itself in this part of the world, and it needs to conduct itself in an even-handed fashion if it truly wants peace. Unfortunately, the West has not behaved that way and that has incited a lot of bad blood between the various peoples of the Balkans.

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.
(Amer, 18 May 2009 15:49) "
Frankly, PR doesn't have the ability to survive on it's own without US help, kinda like "Kosova". It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.
http://www.prstatehood.com/home/index.asp
Frankly the Puerto Ricans have contributed more to the American society than the Albanians have to the Serbian/ Western European society.

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blero

pre 14 godina

(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)

Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).

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Milan

pre 14 godina

Belgrade is totalitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.
(ben, 18 May 2009 18:02)

What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).

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ben

pre 14 godina

There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.
(Robert Burns, 17 May 2009 19:53)

I would add: there is no comparison due to the fact that London is democratic and would accept the will of Wells and Schotland

wheres

Belgrade is toatlitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.

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malcolm x

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????
(Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37) ^

that's very simple "Ilir". during colonial times colonial powers seldom sent their own conscript soldiers to fight in the colonies. rather, they used existing conflicts often between different ethnic groups and recruited one ethnic group against the other in order to establish order subordinated to their own interests and they used various pretexts for that end. sounds familiar? there is a very good reason why there is a difference between decolonisation and cesession. the latter was an obstacle in the process of the former.

i agree that the way some people are talking about the middle eastern (but also african, asian and latin american ones) is very annoying and disrespectful, even racist in some cases.

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blero

pre 14 godina

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

(DimTuc, 18 May 2009 09:10)"

Sorry to burst your premature celebrations, but I don't recall putting "Kosova" in my list of possible Western secessions. And while at it, you can take it that I am not against north Kosovo seceding from Pristina! As it is there is already a de facto partition at the Ibar

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ZMAJ

pre 14 godina

And if., ALL the countries recognize independent Kosovo and Aliens arrive to support you - Serbia will GET IT BACK at first opportunity. Kosovo is Serbia and it will always be!

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DimTuc

pre 14 godina

“Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.”
(Mike, 17 May 2009 19:56)

Thank you Mike, yes Hezbollah certainly has done a great job of defending Lebanon from constant brutal Israeli aggression, and its role in driving out the 25-year Israeli occupation of south Lebanon is so widely recognized that the whole of Lebanon – not just Shia, but Sunnis and Christians alike – view it as “the resistance”, and it is probably the most popular organization throughout the middle east, including among many of those with no liking for its initial Iranian sponsor.

“And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?”
(lowe, 17 May 2009 20:34)

Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

“If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did, they should secede indeed. The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia”
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02)

There is not a great deal of “common sense” in that statement, and not only because of your reference to civilized “people”, as if the problem were the Serbian people rather than various regimes. What is so “civilized” about the way Turkey has treated the Kurds, which is in every way equivalent to Serbia treated the Albanians, replete with massive ethnic cleansing, destruction of villages, mass killing etc? And isn’t the multi-year illegal torture hell-hole the US has run in Guantanamo widely known to most people with a brain by now? Not to mention the fact that Guantanamo is sovereign Cuban territory forcibly occupied by the US against the consent of the Cuban government.

“I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that. SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single conversation and about non democracies and ''savagery''.”
(BKK, 18 May 2009 00:05)

I agree absolutely. Actually the way some posters (both Serbs and Albanians actually, depending on which country makes a noise one way or the other usually) seek to demonise middle eastern peoples is remarkably similar to the Serbian nationalist demonization of the Albanians as a nation of “backward, savage, Mafiosi, drug dealing terrorists” etc etc.

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prizreni

pre 14 godina

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

Mike,my friend; You're mentioning Hezbollah and KLA have much in common. So you are talking bad about you friends Hezbollah, which this organization comes from Iran. My friend if KLA had much in common with Hezbollah, I think iRan would be the first country to recognize Kosova.

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Flamur-London

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out.

(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

If I say that Kosova is Not Serbia because if it was then Serbia wouldn't need to report to/from UNMIK or EULEX or anybody else, than you would agree with me, wouldn't you?
Wasn't Tadic who reported to EULEX and UNMIK for his visit to Kosova? If you what you said is true and instead of Kosova, use the name Serbia, you will see that actually this can be applied to/for Serbia as well.
Thanks for making this clear.
I always knew that one day you will come to your senses and admit that actually Kosova is independent and Serbia has nothing to do with it any more.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.
(EA, 17 May 2009 21:06) "

Was I arguing about anything in the first place? All I did was list possible future secessions -- some more likely than others to actually happen of course.

Anyway secession is secession no matter where it occurs -- whether in Serbia or UK or France or Timbuktu or "Kosova" (read North Kosovo's secession here).

Secession invariably invovles a detachment of territory. There is no escaping this common denominator no matter which part of the world it happens.

So what is this talk about tarring of brushes and differentiating the woods from the trees? I don't see how you can have a treeless woods! Maybe you or your spin doctor can tell me!

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

"Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?"
You forgot one.....
Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02) "

Sure, COMMON SENSE should have told me that the 67% SERB MAJORITY in Vojvodina are just dying to detach themselves from Belgrade! Why was I so dense? Please!!!

As for secession via parliament, I am sure your so-civilized parliament in Pristina will eventually come to see the wisdom of giving up north Kosovo in accordance with the wishes of the MAJORITY of the inhabitants there ...... or is "Kosova" to be a special case again and so to be exempted from this democratic ideal?

In any case the limited resources that Pristina now has which had to be used to suppress the north could have been more productively used to improve the lives of the K-Albanians instead -- that's the practical reason which Pristina has yet to see. Or are you naively expecting the West with their deep economic problems to continue bailing you out with unlimited aid?

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Did any of you read what Mr.Putin said on Thursday?QUOTE: Russia WILL recognize Independence of Kosovo if the US drop Missile shield from CZ & Pl...!Seems to me that's very close to reality since Pres.Obama will drop it anyway,so the Russians are making a very smart move,both sides have something from it...!After all Russians don't care much about Serbia...they know what Serbs did in the 90's

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Matthew

pre 14 godina

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)

California through Texas.

Stolen by the US and has, or will have, a Mexican majority again very soon. Very similar to the Kosovo issue, with the exception that neither California nor Texas represents the historical foundation of US culture and civilization.

They are most certainly discriminated against, and if the Hispanics took up arms and engaged in terrorist tactics against the US government (In the ways UCK did), I can guarantee the causalities would be much higher than the 2,000 killed in the Kosovan insurgency before the NATO bombing.

“Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession" (Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37).”

Ilir, that’s the point of the statement, they declared independence based “self-determination” which is different than secession. Albanians already have a country called, aptly enough, Albania.

Dim Tuc, you’re consistent in your reasoning and I respect that, and basically we think the same.

However, in the case of Kosovo there are other considerations besides majority rule, we must not only take the ethnic makeup into account, but also the cultural and historical. Much like the Jews have a very legitimate claim to live in Jerusalem based on the cultural importance Jerusalem played in the establishment of their civilization, Kosovo represents the very same thing to us Serbs. Its not because we have a couple churches there, its because we look to Kosovo as the foundation of all the is Serbian. Already radical parts of Albanian society have destroyed many of our cultural sites, or claimed them as originally Albanian ones. Keep in mind Genocide is not just killing the people, it can also be destroying their culture. The fact that so many participated in the 2004 pogroms indicates that Albanian society in Kosovo is not yet ready to respect our heritage there. Surely with your perspective, you support partition, I think you should be more active in mentioning that so as not to appear bias or hypocritical, which I know you’re not. In fact your opinions on RS and Krajina would be most welcome here.

That being said I think the ICJ case could be a very good thing, I think we need to sit down and establish just what it is that allows a people to seek secessions. For example, we Serbs are very confused that places like Krajina, RS and North of Kosovo aren’t considered for separation? We suffered substantial genocide in those regions in WWII and later.

So what should the standards be, how should we decide? Wouldn’t it be healthy for the world as a whole to determine these issues?

As difficult as the process is, this could be a real turning point in International Law and good things could come of it if handled properly.

“If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago. (jesse, 17 May 2009 22:44)”

Public opinion in many of the countries that recognized Kosovo was against the UDI. I didn’t see you complaining about that?

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?"



Yes, they were. Because Albania and Kosovo together form your all-feared Greater Albania, right? HAHA.

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Lazar

pre 14 godina

Vojvodina has a serbian majority, comprising some 70% of the population there. I don't understand how someone in their right mind would support such a thing.



But to add to that list... Greeks in Northern Epirus (aka southern Albania), the Turkish community in Georgia, the catholic part of northern ireland, and who else? Hmm, there is bound to be more. Tibet for example.

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out. You only think you have self determination, but it's an illusion just like everything else in "Kosova".

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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BKK

pre 14 godina

I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that.

SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single coversation and about non democracies and ''savegry''.

It is wise to get educated on the ''democracies'' of west which have left most Middle East in ruins and many non-muslims displaced.

Its a Serb-Middle East-South American-Russian smear fest non stop. Just please stop.

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Jovan

pre 14 godina

I just knew how our dear albanian friends couldn´t but to belittle Algeria and/or their official in Belgrade.

kids, if you don´t like to hear news like this, there are other ways to express your frustration, you don´t have to act in this childish manner!

Algeria unimportant? funny.

but when some tiny pacific islands "recognized" this stillborn freak-creation on Serbia´s territory you were very delighted, though.

ps: Algeria´s "importance" is so little, especially for the US, that they couldn´t wait to forget their laughable "isolation" of Algeria...

you guys really do not inform yourselves, as it seems.

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)********* lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!

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jesse

pre 14 godina

Mr. Mesdoua,
You speak in the name of Algeria when the whole world is aware of the fact that you lost every election in your country.Thanks to your military brutality you and your government stays in power.Your position in world stage is humiliating.If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago.Kosovar and Alegerian struggle and suffering for freedom is very identical

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, North Korea for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating."




Out of the hugely exhaustive list you provided (LOL), the ones above are the only countries we as Albanians wouldn't care if they recognized Kosova or not. I'm sure we'll survive without Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez etc :)

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EA

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.

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Ilir

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????

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EA

pre 14 godina

"The Algerian government's position on the issue of Kosovo is clear. We consider this to be a problem of partition, secession, not of self-determination."

Since when Algeria is in a position to advise what is secession or self-determination?

Algeria, Iran, North Korea, will be the last countries to be asked for recognition.

Serbia has got great friends)))

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe did not explain why those things shouldn;t happen, especially the first and the last two.
(Dim Tuc, 17 May 2009 18:08) "

And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?

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Mike

pre 14 godina

If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Spain, Russia, Greece, China, India, Brazil, Cyprus, South Africa, Venezuela, or Argentina for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating.

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

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Patriota

pre 14 godina

And what the hell is France doing in Africa?
(Ratko, 17 May 2009 17:54)

Maybe if you open your history books you will find out that Algeria was once a part of greater France.. But hey that must be to hard for you to do!!!

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

You don't really help YOUR argument with many of the examples you give. In particular, Scotland and Wales. They are different countries within the Union. If the people of either Scotland or Wales wanted that then it would happen - who would wish to stop them? That is like saying Serbia does not have the right to self determination. There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.

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fufi

pre 14 godina

Just like Syria's case, thank you Algeria for NOT recognizing Kosovo. The recognitions of Syria, Algeria, Iran and others like them aren't needed. They do more damage than good. And I'm an Albanian myself. LOL.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?

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lowe

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?

Preporučujem 82 Ne preporučujem 56
Mike

pre 14 godina

If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Spain, Russia, Greece, China, India, Brazil, Cyprus, South Africa, Venezuela, or Argentina for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating.

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

Preporučujem 55 Ne preporučujem 40
Jovan

pre 14 godina

I just knew how our dear albanian friends couldn´t but to belittle Algeria and/or their official in Belgrade.

kids, if you don´t like to hear news like this, there are other ways to express your frustration, you don´t have to act in this childish manner!

Algeria unimportant? funny.

but when some tiny pacific islands "recognized" this stillborn freak-creation on Serbia´s territory you were very delighted, though.

ps: Algeria´s "importance" is so little, especially for the US, that they couldn´t wait to forget their laughable "isolation" of Algeria...

you guys really do not inform yourselves, as it seems.

Preporučujem 42 Ne preporučujem 26
fufi

pre 14 godina

Just like Syria's case, thank you Algeria for NOT recognizing Kosovo. The recognitions of Syria, Algeria, Iran and others like them aren't needed. They do more damage than good. And I'm an Albanian myself. LOL.

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BKK

pre 14 godina

I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that.

SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single coversation and about non democracies and ''savegry''.

It is wise to get educated on the ''democracies'' of west which have left most Middle East in ruins and many non-muslims displaced.

Its a Serb-Middle East-South American-Russian smear fest non stop. Just please stop.

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Patriota

pre 14 godina

And what the hell is France doing in Africa?
(Ratko, 17 May 2009 17:54)

Maybe if you open your history books you will find out that Algeria was once a part of greater France.. But hey that must be to hard for you to do!!!

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out. You only think you have self determination, but it's an illusion just like everything else in "Kosova".

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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EA

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

You don't really help YOUR argument with many of the examples you give. In particular, Scotland and Wales. They are different countries within the Union. If the people of either Scotland or Wales wanted that then it would happen - who would wish to stop them? That is like saying Serbia does not have the right to self determination. There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.

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EA

pre 14 godina

"The Algerian government's position on the issue of Kosovo is clear. We consider this to be a problem of partition, secession, not of self-determination."

Since when Algeria is in a position to advise what is secession or self-determination?

Algeria, Iran, North Korea, will be the last countries to be asked for recognition.

Serbia has got great friends)))

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Ilir

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????

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jesse

pre 14 godina

Mr. Mesdoua,
You speak in the name of Algeria when the whole world is aware of the fact that you lost every election in your country.Thanks to your military brutality you and your government stays in power.Your position in world stage is humiliating.If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago.Kosovar and Alegerian struggle and suffering for freedom is very identical

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)********* lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe did not explain why those things shouldn;t happen, especially the first and the last two.
(Dim Tuc, 17 May 2009 18:08) "

And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, North Korea for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating."




Out of the hugely exhaustive list you provided (LOL), the ones above are the only countries we as Albanians wouldn't care if they recognized Kosova or not. I'm sure we'll survive without Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez etc :)

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Matthew

pre 14 godina

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)

California through Texas.

Stolen by the US and has, or will have, a Mexican majority again very soon. Very similar to the Kosovo issue, with the exception that neither California nor Texas represents the historical foundation of US culture and civilization.

They are most certainly discriminated against, and if the Hispanics took up arms and engaged in terrorist tactics against the US government (In the ways UCK did), I can guarantee the causalities would be much higher than the 2,000 killed in the Kosovan insurgency before the NATO bombing.

“Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession" (Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37).”

Ilir, that’s the point of the statement, they declared independence based “self-determination” which is different than secession. Albanians already have a country called, aptly enough, Albania.

Dim Tuc, you’re consistent in your reasoning and I respect that, and basically we think the same.

However, in the case of Kosovo there are other considerations besides majority rule, we must not only take the ethnic makeup into account, but also the cultural and historical. Much like the Jews have a very legitimate claim to live in Jerusalem based on the cultural importance Jerusalem played in the establishment of their civilization, Kosovo represents the very same thing to us Serbs. Its not because we have a couple churches there, its because we look to Kosovo as the foundation of all the is Serbian. Already radical parts of Albanian society have destroyed many of our cultural sites, or claimed them as originally Albanian ones. Keep in mind Genocide is not just killing the people, it can also be destroying their culture. The fact that so many participated in the 2004 pogroms indicates that Albanian society in Kosovo is not yet ready to respect our heritage there. Surely with your perspective, you support partition, I think you should be more active in mentioning that so as not to appear bias or hypocritical, which I know you’re not. In fact your opinions on RS and Krajina would be most welcome here.

That being said I think the ICJ case could be a very good thing, I think we need to sit down and establish just what it is that allows a people to seek secessions. For example, we Serbs are very confused that places like Krajina, RS and North of Kosovo aren’t considered for separation? We suffered substantial genocide in those regions in WWII and later.

So what should the standards be, how should we decide? Wouldn’t it be healthy for the world as a whole to determine these issues?

As difficult as the process is, this could be a real turning point in International Law and good things could come of it if handled properly.

“If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago. (jesse, 17 May 2009 22:44)”

Public opinion in many of the countries that recognized Kosovo was against the UDI. I didn’t see you complaining about that?

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Lazar

pre 14 godina

Vojvodina has a serbian majority, comprising some 70% of the population there. I don't understand how someone in their right mind would support such a thing.



But to add to that list... Greeks in Northern Epirus (aka southern Albania), the Turkish community in Georgia, the catholic part of northern ireland, and who else? Hmm, there is bound to be more. Tibet for example.

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ZMAJ

pre 14 godina

And if., ALL the countries recognize independent Kosovo and Aliens arrive to support you - Serbia will GET IT BACK at first opportunity. Kosovo is Serbia and it will always be!

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Did any of you read what Mr.Putin said on Thursday?QUOTE: Russia WILL recognize Independence of Kosovo if the US drop Missile shield from CZ & Pl...!Seems to me that's very close to reality since Pres.Obama will drop it anyway,so the Russians are making a very smart move,both sides have something from it...!After all Russians don't care much about Serbia...they know what Serbs did in the 90's

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02) "

Sure, COMMON SENSE should have told me that the 67% SERB MAJORITY in Vojvodina are just dying to detach themselves from Belgrade! Why was I so dense? Please!!!

As for secession via parliament, I am sure your so-civilized parliament in Pristina will eventually come to see the wisdom of giving up north Kosovo in accordance with the wishes of the MAJORITY of the inhabitants there ...... or is "Kosova" to be a special case again and so to be exempted from this democratic ideal?

In any case the limited resources that Pristina now has which had to be used to suppress the north could have been more productively used to improve the lives of the K-Albanians instead -- that's the practical reason which Pristina has yet to see. Or are you naively expecting the West with their deep economic problems to continue bailing you out with unlimited aid?

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

"Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?"
You forgot one.....
Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.

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prizreni

pre 14 godina

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

Mike,my friend; You're mentioning Hezbollah and KLA have much in common. So you are talking bad about you friends Hezbollah, which this organization comes from Iran. My friend if KLA had much in common with Hezbollah, I think iRan would be the first country to recognize Kosova.

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Blake

pre 14 godina

This whole mess stems from Western hypocrisy. Self determination and territorial integrity are two mutually exclusive concepts which can not co-exist. If you want peace in the Balkans one concept or the other must govern. If you choose self-determination then Albania can have southern Kosovo, the Presevo valley, western Macedonia etc..., and Serbia can have northern Kosovo, and Republika Srpska. If you choose territorial integrity then Kosovo stays in Serbia and Republika Srpska stays in Bosnia. It's simple, re-draw the borders along ethnic lines or keep the existing borders as presently recognized by the UN (with Kosovo as part of Serbia).

The West is inciting violence in the Balkans by recognizing the right to self-determination for some people and not others, and the right of territorial integrity for some and not others. Where was the SFRY's right to territorial integrity? Where is the Bosnian-Serb, the Bosnian-Croat, or the Presevo-Albanian's right to self-determination?

The West has involved itself in this part of the world, and it needs to conduct itself in an even-handed fashion if it truly wants peace. Unfortunately, the West has not behaved that way and that has incited a lot of bad blood between the various peoples of the Balkans.

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?"



Yes, they were. Because Albania and Kosovo together form your all-feared Greater Albania, right? HAHA.

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Flamur-London

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out.

(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

If I say that Kosova is Not Serbia because if it was then Serbia wouldn't need to report to/from UNMIK or EULEX or anybody else, than you would agree with me, wouldn't you?
Wasn't Tadic who reported to EULEX and UNMIK for his visit to Kosova? If you what you said is true and instead of Kosova, use the name Serbia, you will see that actually this can be applied to/for Serbia as well.
Thanks for making this clear.
I always knew that one day you will come to your senses and admit that actually Kosova is independent and Serbia has nothing to do with it any more.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

(DimTuc, 18 May 2009 09:10)"

Sorry to burst your premature celebrations, but I don't recall putting "Kosova" in my list of possible Western secessions. And while at it, you can take it that I am not against north Kosovo seceding from Pristina! As it is there is already a de facto partition at the Ibar

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.
(EA, 17 May 2009 21:06) "

Was I arguing about anything in the first place? All I did was list possible future secessions -- some more likely than others to actually happen of course.

Anyway secession is secession no matter where it occurs -- whether in Serbia or UK or France or Timbuktu or "Kosova" (read North Kosovo's secession here).

Secession invariably invovles a detachment of territory. There is no escaping this common denominator no matter which part of the world it happens.

So what is this talk about tarring of brushes and differentiating the woods from the trees? I don't see how you can have a treeless woods! Maybe you or your spin doctor can tell me!

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blero

pre 14 godina

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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DimTuc

pre 14 godina

“Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.”
(Mike, 17 May 2009 19:56)

Thank you Mike, yes Hezbollah certainly has done a great job of defending Lebanon from constant brutal Israeli aggression, and its role in driving out the 25-year Israeli occupation of south Lebanon is so widely recognized that the whole of Lebanon – not just Shia, but Sunnis and Christians alike – view it as “the resistance”, and it is probably the most popular organization throughout the middle east, including among many of those with no liking for its initial Iranian sponsor.

“And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?”
(lowe, 17 May 2009 20:34)

Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

“If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did, they should secede indeed. The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia”
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02)

There is not a great deal of “common sense” in that statement, and not only because of your reference to civilized “people”, as if the problem were the Serbian people rather than various regimes. What is so “civilized” about the way Turkey has treated the Kurds, which is in every way equivalent to Serbia treated the Albanians, replete with massive ethnic cleansing, destruction of villages, mass killing etc? And isn’t the multi-year illegal torture hell-hole the US has run in Guantanamo widely known to most people with a brain by now? Not to mention the fact that Guantanamo is sovereign Cuban territory forcibly occupied by the US against the consent of the Cuban government.

“I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that. SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single conversation and about non democracies and ''savagery''.”
(BKK, 18 May 2009 00:05)

I agree absolutely. Actually the way some posters (both Serbs and Albanians actually, depending on which country makes a noise one way or the other usually) seek to demonise middle eastern peoples is remarkably similar to the Serbian nationalist demonization of the Albanians as a nation of “backward, savage, Mafiosi, drug dealing terrorists” etc etc.

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(blero, 18 May 2009 11:41)

Serbia was there.
Serbia hosted last year's as well.

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blero

pre 14 godina

(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)

Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.
(Amer, 18 May 2009 15:49) "
Frankly, PR doesn't have the ability to survive on it's own without US help, kinda like "Kosova". It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.
http://www.prstatehood.com/home/index.asp
Frankly the Puerto Ricans have contributed more to the American society than the Albanians have to the Serbian/ Western European society.

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malcolm x

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????
(Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37) ^

that's very simple "Ilir". during colonial times colonial powers seldom sent their own conscript soldiers to fight in the colonies. rather, they used existing conflicts often between different ethnic groups and recruited one ethnic group against the other in order to establish order subordinated to their own interests and they used various pretexts for that end. sounds familiar? there is a very good reason why there is a difference between decolonisation and cesession. the latter was an obstacle in the process of the former.

i agree that the way some people are talking about the middle eastern (but also african, asian and latin american ones) is very annoying and disrespectful, even racist in some cases.

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ben

pre 14 godina

There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.
(Robert Burns, 17 May 2009 19:53)

I would add: there is no comparison due to the fact that London is democratic and would accept the will of Wells and Schotland

wheres

Belgrade is toatlitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.

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Milan

pre 14 godina

Belgrade is totalitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.
(ben, 18 May 2009 18:02)

What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

"What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).
(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)"

That is misleading if not incorrect. It was hardly that simple. Migration between Scotland and Ireland goes back to the days of the celts and picts in the middle ages. Do you know that 20% of the population of Scotland is of Irish decent? My name would suggest that I am in that 20%. But yes, at one time there was a few hundred thousand lowland Scots went to the plantations in the north of Ireland. If you see that as a colonial invasion then that was a big part of the problem that NI became.

As for the partition. Well, rock and hard place springs to mind. A majority in the north were protestant and threatening to take up arms. Then in the 60's and 70's civil rights abuses contributed to further discontent about the situation. It was a big mess and no one really had a solution.

It took some brave men to take a bitter pill on both sides to gain the relative peace there is now. I hope it all works out. Maybe there is a lesson there - without talk and discussion there cannot be peace.

And Ben. Scotland is a country. Kosovo isn't. That's the difference.

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.

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Milan

pre 14 godina

"Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).
(blero, 18 May 2009 20:32)"

In 1912 we RECAPTURED Kosovo, part of our historic serbian country from turkish invaders hands. In 1921 UK hold historic irish lands in their hands.

And UK created their Northern Ireland colony on irish lands (like Kosovo created by Western Powers as their colony on serbian lands).

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.'

Ok, it's not automatic, but every vote they've held so far has been in favor of continuing commonwealth status (they have to vote for statehood before Congress can take up the question). Recent polls have shown a majority in favor of statehood (I learn from google), but there's still nothing official.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?

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fufi

pre 14 godina

Just like Syria's case, thank you Algeria for NOT recognizing Kosovo. The recognitions of Syria, Algeria, Iran and others like them aren't needed. They do more damage than good. And I'm an Albanian myself. LOL.

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EA

pre 14 godina

"The Algerian government's position on the issue of Kosovo is clear. We consider this to be a problem of partition, secession, not of self-determination."

Since when Algeria is in a position to advise what is secession or self-determination?

Algeria, Iran, North Korea, will be the last countries to be asked for recognition.

Serbia has got great friends)))

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Mike

pre 14 godina

If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Spain, Russia, Greece, China, India, Brazil, Cyprus, South Africa, Venezuela, or Argentina for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating.

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)********* lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!

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EA

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"If Algeria, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, North Korea for example would have recognized, you would have been celebrating."




Out of the hugely exhaustive list you provided (LOL), the ones above are the only countries we as Albanians wouldn't care if they recognized Kosova or not. I'm sure we'll survive without Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez etc :)

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jesse

pre 14 godina

Mr. Mesdoua,
You speak in the name of Algeria when the whole world is aware of the fact that you lost every election in your country.Thanks to your military brutality you and your government stays in power.Your position in world stage is humiliating.If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago.Kosovar and Alegerian struggle and suffering for freedom is very identical

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out. You only think you have self determination, but it's an illusion just like everything else in "Kosova".

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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Flamur-London

pre 14 godina

Well, if you were truly in charge of your own "country" then you wouldn't need to report to the UN or EULEX or anyone else and you certainly wouldn't need their permission to keep Tadic out.

(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

If I say that Kosova is Not Serbia because if it was then Serbia wouldn't need to report to/from UNMIK or EULEX or anybody else, than you would agree with me, wouldn't you?
Wasn't Tadic who reported to EULEX and UNMIK for his visit to Kosova? If you what you said is true and instead of Kosova, use the name Serbia, you will see that actually this can be applied to/for Serbia as well.
Thanks for making this clear.
I always knew that one day you will come to your senses and admit that actually Kosova is independent and Serbia has nothing to do with it any more.

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Patriota

pre 14 godina

And what the hell is France doing in Africa?
(Ratko, 17 May 2009 17:54)

Maybe if you open your history books you will find out that Algeria was once a part of greater France.. But hey that must be to hard for you to do!!!

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Jovan

pre 14 godina

I just knew how our dear albanian friends couldn´t but to belittle Algeria and/or their official in Belgrade.

kids, if you don´t like to hear news like this, there are other ways to express your frustration, you don´t have to act in this childish manner!

Algeria unimportant? funny.

but when some tiny pacific islands "recognized" this stillborn freak-creation on Serbia´s territory you were very delighted, though.

ps: Algeria´s "importance" is so little, especially for the US, that they couldn´t wait to forget their laughable "isolation" of Algeria...

you guys really do not inform yourselves, as it seems.

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prizreni

pre 14 godina

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.

Mike,my friend; You're mentioning Hezbollah and KLA have much in common. So you are talking bad about you friends Hezbollah, which this organization comes from Iran. My friend if KLA had much in common with Hezbollah, I think iRan would be the first country to recognize Kosova.

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Ilir

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????

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Common sense

pre 14 godina

Did any of you read what Mr.Putin said on Thursday?QUOTE: Russia WILL recognize Independence of Kosovo if the US drop Missile shield from CZ & Pl...!Seems to me that's very close to reality since Pres.Obama will drop it anyway,so the Russians are making a very smart move,both sides have something from it...!After all Russians don't care much about Serbia...they know what Serbs did in the 90's

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kukuth

pre 14 godina

"I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?"



Yes, they were. Because Albania and Kosovo together form your all-feared Greater Albania, right? HAHA.

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BKK

pre 14 godina

I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that.

SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single coversation and about non democracies and ''savegry''.

It is wise to get educated on the ''democracies'' of west which have left most Middle East in ruins and many non-muslims displaced.

Its a Serb-Middle East-South American-Russian smear fest non stop. Just please stop.

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ZMAJ

pre 14 godina

And if., ALL the countries recognize independent Kosovo and Aliens arrive to support you - Serbia will GET IT BACK at first opportunity. Kosovo is Serbia and it will always be!

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blero

pre 14 godina

BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Albania's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(Peggy, 18 May 2009 01:25)

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

Lowe,

You don't really help YOUR argument with many of the examples you give. In particular, Scotland and Wales. They are different countries within the Union. If the people of either Scotland or Wales wanted that then it would happen - who would wish to stop them? That is like saying Serbia does not have the right to self determination. There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.

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DimTuc

pre 14 godina

“Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your murderous armed rebellion and land grab operations. The KLA and Hezbollah have much in common.”
(Mike, 17 May 2009 19:56)

Thank you Mike, yes Hezbollah certainly has done a great job of defending Lebanon from constant brutal Israeli aggression, and its role in driving out the 25-year Israeli occupation of south Lebanon is so widely recognized that the whole of Lebanon – not just Shia, but Sunnis and Christians alike – view it as “the resistance”, and it is probably the most popular organization throughout the middle east, including among many of those with no liking for its initial Iranian sponsor.

“And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?”
(lowe, 17 May 2009 20:34)

Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

“If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did, they should secede indeed. The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia”
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02)

There is not a great deal of “common sense” in that statement, and not only because of your reference to civilized “people”, as if the problem were the Serbian people rather than various regimes. What is so “civilized” about the way Turkey has treated the Kurds, which is in every way equivalent to Serbia treated the Albanians, replete with massive ethnic cleansing, destruction of villages, mass killing etc? And isn’t the multi-year illegal torture hell-hole the US has run in Guantanamo widely known to most people with a brain by now? Not to mention the fact that Guantanamo is sovereign Cuban territory forcibly occupied by the US against the consent of the Cuban government.

“I would like to ask Albanians who think it is appropriate to constantly smear Middle Eastern countries and people, to refrain from doing that. SOME of us happen to have roots there of an immediate families, and find it offensive, rude and obnoxious that Iran and Syria happen to be constantly dragged into every single conversation and about non democracies and ''savagery''.”
(BKK, 18 May 2009 00:05)

I agree absolutely. Actually the way some posters (both Serbs and Albanians actually, depending on which country makes a noise one way or the other usually) seek to demonise middle eastern peoples is remarkably similar to the Serbian nationalist demonization of the Albanians as a nation of “backward, savage, Mafiosi, drug dealing terrorists” etc etc.

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Thank you lowe, I’m glad to hear you now want the independence of Kosova “to happen” like the rest, given it is your comparison. I had the impression previously you were anti-independence.

(DimTuc, 18 May 2009 09:10)"

Sorry to burst your premature celebrations, but I don't recall putting "Kosova" in my list of possible Western secessions. And while at it, you can take it that I am not against north Kosovo seceding from Pristina! As it is there is already a de facto partition at the Ibar

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe did not explain why those things shouldn;t happen, especially the first and the last two.
(Dim Tuc, 17 May 2009 18:08) "

And why shouldn't they happen? What makes you think I don't want them to happen?

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Matthew

pre 14 godina

Did I miss out anyone in the West?
(lowe, 17 May 2009 17:13)

California through Texas.

Stolen by the US and has, or will have, a Mexican majority again very soon. Very similar to the Kosovo issue, with the exception that neither California nor Texas represents the historical foundation of US culture and civilization.

They are most certainly discriminated against, and if the Hispanics took up arms and engaged in terrorist tactics against the US government (In the ways UCK did), I can guarantee the causalities would be much higher than the 2,000 killed in the Kosovan insurgency before the NATO bombing.

“Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession" (Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37).”

Ilir, that’s the point of the statement, they declared independence based “self-determination” which is different than secession. Albanians already have a country called, aptly enough, Albania.

Dim Tuc, you’re consistent in your reasoning and I respect that, and basically we think the same.

However, in the case of Kosovo there are other considerations besides majority rule, we must not only take the ethnic makeup into account, but also the cultural and historical. Much like the Jews have a very legitimate claim to live in Jerusalem based on the cultural importance Jerusalem played in the establishment of their civilization, Kosovo represents the very same thing to us Serbs. Its not because we have a couple churches there, its because we look to Kosovo as the foundation of all the is Serbian. Already radical parts of Albanian society have destroyed many of our cultural sites, or claimed them as originally Albanian ones. Keep in mind Genocide is not just killing the people, it can also be destroying their culture. The fact that so many participated in the 2004 pogroms indicates that Albanian society in Kosovo is not yet ready to respect our heritage there. Surely with your perspective, you support partition, I think you should be more active in mentioning that so as not to appear bias or hypocritical, which I know you’re not. In fact your opinions on RS and Krajina would be most welcome here.

That being said I think the ICJ case could be a very good thing, I think we need to sit down and establish just what it is that allows a people to seek secessions. For example, we Serbs are very confused that places like Krajina, RS and North of Kosovo aren’t considered for separation? We suffered substantial genocide in those regions in WWII and later.

So what should the standards be, how should we decide? Wouldn’t it be healthy for the world as a whole to determine these issues?

As difficult as the process is, this could be a real turning point in International Law and good things could come of it if handled properly.

“If freedom loving Algarian people were give a chance to decide Kosovo would have been recognized by Algeria a long time ago. (jesse, 17 May 2009 22:44)”

Public opinion in many of the countries that recognized Kosovo was against the UDI. I didn’t see you complaining about that?

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"Lowe,

I am "overwhelmed" with your list of "arguments" about secession scenarios.

I have only one problem with your "arguments". You are tarring everyone with the same brush! You are failing to see the woods for the trees. You are talking as let's say Vojvodina is asking now independence from Serbia.
(EA, 17 May 2009 21:06) "

Was I arguing about anything in the first place? All I did was list possible future secessions -- some more likely than others to actually happen of course.

Anyway secession is secession no matter where it occurs -- whether in Serbia or UK or France or Timbuktu or "Kosova" (read North Kosovo's secession here).

Secession invariably invovles a detachment of territory. There is no escaping this common denominator no matter which part of the world it happens.

So what is this talk about tarring of brushes and differentiating the woods from the trees? I don't see how you can have a treeless woods! Maybe you or your spin doctor can tell me!

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ben

pre 14 godina

There is no comparison between Kosovo and those countries.
(Robert Burns, 17 May 2009 19:53)

I would add: there is no comparison due to the fact that London is democratic and would accept the will of Wells and Schotland

wheres

Belgrade is toatlitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.

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Lazar

pre 14 godina

Vojvodina has a serbian majority, comprising some 70% of the population there. I don't understand how someone in their right mind would support such a thing.



But to add to that list... Greeks in Northern Epirus (aka southern Albania), the Turkish community in Georgia, the catholic part of northern ireland, and who else? Hmm, there is bound to be more. Tibet for example.

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

"Let me see:

1. Scotland and its North Sea oil should secede from UK
2. Wales should secede from UK
3. Greenland should secede from Denmark
4. Corsica should secede from France
5. Polynesia should secede from France
6. Guiana should secede from France
7. French part of Basque should secede from France
8. Tahiti should secede from France
9. The American Indian reservations should secede from USA
10. Hawaii should secede from USA
11. Kurdistan should secede from Turkey
12. Quebec should secede from Canada
13. Flemingia should secede from Belgium
14. Lapland should secede from Ahtisaari's Finland
15. The Falklands should be returned to Argentina
16. Guantanamo should be returned to Cuba

Did I miss out anyone in the West?"
You forgot one.....
Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.

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blero

pre 14 godina

(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)

Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).

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lowe

pre 14 godina

"lowe you missed one more very important...!_ 17.Vojvodina should secede from Serbia...!If any Country you mention above treats its minority/NEIGHBOURS like Serbia did,they should secede in deed.The beauty of it is that they are civilized people, unlike Serbia.If any of those minorities(above) secede,i'm sure their split will take place in Parliament not in the battle field!
(Common sense, 17 May 2009 23:02) "

Sure, COMMON SENSE should have told me that the 67% SERB MAJORITY in Vojvodina are just dying to detach themselves from Belgrade! Why was I so dense? Please!!!

As for secession via parliament, I am sure your so-civilized parliament in Pristina will eventually come to see the wisdom of giving up north Kosovo in accordance with the wishes of the MAJORITY of the inhabitants there ...... or is "Kosova" to be a special case again and so to be exempted from this democratic ideal?

In any case the limited resources that Pristina now has which had to be used to suppress the north could have been more productively used to improve the lives of the K-Albanians instead -- that's the practical reason which Pristina has yet to see. Or are you naively expecting the West with their deep economic problems to continue bailing you out with unlimited aid?

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Peggy

pre 14 godina

Peggy (using your words),
BTW, I missed your entry into Eurovision. I saw Russia's entry. Were they representing you as well?
(blero, 18 May 2009 11:41)

Serbia was there.
Serbia hosted last year's as well.

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Milan

pre 14 godina

Belgrade is totalitarian and thinks that her sovreignity gose beyond the peoples will that Belgrade wants to rule over. That is called a bully.

Since the sovreignity of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority (and not from the peoples democratic will- we cannot argue over this) and now this superiority has vanished and with that the DEMOCRACY HAS PREVAILED.

No comparison indeed.
(ben, 18 May 2009 18:02)

What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).

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Radovan

pre 14 godina

'Puerto Rico. There is a growing nationalist movement there. I don't think it wants to be a commonwealth of the USA forever.'

It votes on this question every few years and the vote is never enough to decide which way it wants to go. It has the option of becoming either a state or independent any time it wants, but under the current setup its citizens have the advantages of citizenship without the requirement to pay taxes. Most in the States would be delighted to see PR opt for independence, frankly.
(Amer, 18 May 2009 15:49) "
Frankly, PR doesn't have the ability to survive on it's own without US help, kinda like "Kosova". It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.
http://www.prstatehood.com/home/index.asp
Frankly the Puerto Ricans have contributed more to the American society than the Albanians have to the Serbian/ Western European society.

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Milan

pre 14 godina

"Milan,
It seems to me that you agree with Ben then (the sovereignty of Serbia over Kosova was due to her military superiority and not the will of the people).
(blero, 18 May 2009 20:32)"

In 1912 we RECAPTURED Kosovo, part of our historic serbian country from turkish invaders hands. In 1921 UK hold historic irish lands in their hands.

And UK created their Northern Ireland colony on irish lands (like Kosovo created by Western Powers as their colony on serbian lands).

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Robert Burns

pre 14 godina

"What does UK in Northern Ireland?? Northern Ireland was created as imperialist british colony on historic Irish territory, with catholic Irish discriminated by protestant Scots and English. Northern Ireland exist only because military power of UK and was created after BRITISH DICTATE in 1921 (or Ireland recognized Northern Ireland as british territory, or british army will crushed Independent State of Ireland with total war).
(Milan, 18 May 2009 19:02)"

That is misleading if not incorrect. It was hardly that simple. Migration between Scotland and Ireland goes back to the days of the celts and picts in the middle ages. Do you know that 20% of the population of Scotland is of Irish decent? My name would suggest that I am in that 20%. But yes, at one time there was a few hundred thousand lowland Scots went to the plantations in the north of Ireland. If you see that as a colonial invasion then that was a big part of the problem that NI became.

As for the partition. Well, rock and hard place springs to mind. A majority in the north were protestant and threatening to take up arms. Then in the 60's and 70's civil rights abuses contributed to further discontent about the situation. It was a big mess and no one really had a solution.

It took some brave men to take a bitter pill on both sides to gain the relative peace there is now. I hope it all works out. Maybe there is a lesson there - without talk and discussion there cannot be peace.

And Ben. Scotland is a country. Kosovo isn't. That's the difference.

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Amer

pre 14 godina

'It's been waiting since the Spanish American war to become a state...of the U.S.. Your statement that it can be a state at anytime seems to be unfounded unless you can substantiate those claims with facts.'

Ok, it's not automatic, but every vote they've held so far has been in favor of continuing commonwealth status (they have to vote for statehood before Congress can take up the question). Recent polls have shown a majority in favor of statehood (I learn from google), but there's still nothing official.

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malcolm x

pre 14 godina

Funny how a country like Algeria who themself had a very similar "self-determination or secession", called it if you wish, whould come with such bizare claims.
Last but no least: "The ambassador said that the peoples of Algeria and Serbia are very close"
How????
(Ilir, 17 May 2009 21:37) ^

that's very simple "Ilir". during colonial times colonial powers seldom sent their own conscript soldiers to fight in the colonies. rather, they used existing conflicts often between different ethnic groups and recruited one ethnic group against the other in order to establish order subordinated to their own interests and they used various pretexts for that end. sounds familiar? there is a very good reason why there is a difference between decolonisation and cesession. the latter was an obstacle in the process of the former.

i agree that the way some people are talking about the middle eastern (but also african, asian and latin american ones) is very annoying and disrespectful, even racist in some cases.

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Blake

pre 14 godina

This whole mess stems from Western hypocrisy. Self determination and territorial integrity are two mutually exclusive concepts which can not co-exist. If you want peace in the Balkans one concept or the other must govern. If you choose self-determination then Albania can have southern Kosovo, the Presevo valley, western Macedonia etc..., and Serbia can have northern Kosovo, and Republika Srpska. If you choose territorial integrity then Kosovo stays in Serbia and Republika Srpska stays in Bosnia. It's simple, re-draw the borders along ethnic lines or keep the existing borders as presently recognized by the UN (with Kosovo as part of Serbia).

The West is inciting violence in the Balkans by recognizing the right to self-determination for some people and not others, and the right of territorial integrity for some and not others. Where was the SFRY's right to territorial integrity? Where is the Bosnian-Serb, the Bosnian-Croat, or the Presevo-Albanian's right to self-determination?

The West has involved itself in this part of the world, and it needs to conduct itself in an even-handed fashion if it truly wants peace. Unfortunately, the West has not behaved that way and that has incited a lot of bad blood between the various peoples of the Balkans.

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