Russians on ICJ "political games"

I beg the Serbian people to never allow Serbia to join NATO. We should fight our own wars not the ones of NATO.

If the ICJ ruling is non-binding and meaningless, why do the us and the albos fear it so much? The question was worded for a yes or no answer; anything less and the ICJ loses its reputation to rule on anything. The ICJ faces two choices: YES and the UN loses all of its power to effect any changes in the world or NO and Serbia files lawsuits against all countries that don't withdraw recognition of Kosovo. If the Serbian government were smart (this is a big IF), they should announce before the ruling that the only country that they will sue is the united states - the biggest obstacle to world peace today.

The ICJ case will be extremely interesting, it will act as a litmus test for the ICJ itself and set the standard for if it will be a political court or if it will be court based upon the rule of law.

Kosova-USA:
Case before the ICJ is one of the more important to be put before it. Issue is which takes precedence - right to self-determination or territorial integrity. Doubt the ICJ will give the green list to secessionists all over the place as courts are usually conservative & UDI clearly violates 1244.

K-albanians would argue that minority abuse is sufficient grounds, but abuses happened on both sides of the conflict.

As for Kosachov's statement, he is just covering all options - just as you & others are when they say "besides, the courts decision is non-binding".

Konstantin Kosachov told Belgrade daily Večernje Novosti that there is a possibility that this court will again start playing political games and making decisions not based on law.

I think Konstantin has just realized that the outcome from ICJ will in favour of Kosova, so no before the opinon has been rendered he is admiting defeat and claming that maybe politics will influence the opinion of the court.
Is it little to late for that? Serbia should have thought before they decided to take the case to ICJ, which also non-biding.

Brothers !

As I understand this is the first time we are counter attacking. For 10 damned years we were mostly defending and not very successful. So the things are changing for better. Look how many western people feel compassion for Serbs ! Just few years ago Serbs were demonized almost like the Russians. But now their propaganda machine gave a leak and common peple in the West can also afford other than the CNN vision of the events.

From this point of view the ICJ is another step to show the world who is who in Europe and in the Balkanes particularly. The balance in the court is 45% against 55% in the US favor but in any case we shall profit the best free of charge PR to unmask the scoundrels that attacked you and to tear apart you Fatherland.

The greater part of the world is on our side so we shall find other places to give way to the truth. On the eve of our joint Victory when during 3 years we almost alone fought against the united Europe I assure you we have enough power to restore justice on the continent once again . Long live Serbia !

It is interesting to label the ICJ process as "political games" already, unless there was a reason for it.

Also, Council of Europe is more and more irrelevant as an institution, and from what I have heard, Kosovo has no interest in joining it.

Konstantin Kosachov told Belgrade daily Večernje Novosti that there is a possibility that this court will again start playing political games and making decisions not based on law.

"That would be a great defeat for international law and the court," he warned.

Russians talking about international law.Hypocrisy to the max.What international law did the Russians respect when they attacked the sovereign country of Georgia?Or when they recognized the independence of S.Osetia& Abkhazia?Or when they officially anexed those two regions last week?

As for the Serbs claiming how important is this ICJ case for the world.Keep dreaming. Each conflict in the world will be solved according to the interest of the countries that have the power in those regions.As for the UN it was bypassed before it will be bypassed in the future.The West keep it in place and finance it,so it can do whatever it wants with it.

"Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much. "

my dear friend "Art",

first of all, YOU ( the Albanians in general ) won´t be asked at all.

that´s something you should be realistic about.

secondly:
Serbia will join the EU anyway. EU needs us more inside "their" borders than we need THEM.

that´s something you are continuously ignoring, but nevertheless, it´s a well-known fact.

as for the russian official, those desperate attempts to declare his statement as a "prophecy of defeat" are just too amusing.

I´d say the russians are quite smart - they are pulling attention on the issue.

that´s good. it´s quite good to keep the issue in the world´s mind. and that´s what they do, nothing more and nothing less.

if you plan to go on with wishful thinking, then you have my blessing...

=)


let´s just see what future brings...

The ICJ will consider three principles of International Law, self-determination, inviolability of borders, and human rights, and, claiming that Kosovo is sui generis, will declare that no international law has been broken in this case and the final status talks and declaration of independence were in line with preceding laws. It will claim that the government of Kosovo was in power as a result of free and fair elections, representing an adequate portion of Kosovo's population in order to make such important decisions.
It will recommend UNSC Res 1244 null as a result of its full implementation as the final status of Kosovo has been decided. All in all, it will declare the act of declaration of independence as legal, but will claim that recognitions from other states is a political matter and outside its jurisdiction.

Those now ranting that if ICJ decides against Serbia is only a result of the court's politicization are doing a disservice to themselves and to international law. We all know Russians and their Soviet mentality, and how they would always cry foul play when anything went against them. Looks like Serbia is the poster child. Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much.

Good day

How do I read a statement but as a political pressure to a non-political judicial body.

The Russian diplomat is doing himself exactly what he is warning the ICJ off.

One should not blame much the Russian chief of the delegation. He comes from a country where it is normal for the politicians to tell the justice what to do.

Russian KJB-FSB corrupt politicians should not speak of law that is a joke. They are the worst offenders to the Russian citizens rights also to their God given freedoms and never mined other nationality's under their control even worse off.

Peter:
“Case before the ICJ is one of the more important to be put before it. Issue is which takes precedence - right to self-determination or territorial integrity. K-albanians would argue that minority abuse is sufficient grounds, but abuses happened on both sides of the conflict”

Peter, you and others are ignoring the fact that support for the independence argument, legally, does not only come from the angle of minority abuse, which would indeed be the same in many parts of the world. It also comes from the reality that the actual legal status of Kosovo within the Yugoslav federation is in dispute, as it was neither a full republic (with the clear right to secession) nor a mere autonomous province of Serbia, as many here want to make out. It was a republic in all but name, and a direct unit of the Yugoslav federation in its own right, despite a formal status as part of Serbia. It was represented equally and independently in the federal government. Then, given the way the federation fell apart, with the complete abrogation of the constitution by Milosevic and his gang, naturally there is a strong argument that Kosovo had the right to got the same way as the republics. Yes, perhaps one could argue that it could go either way, given its in between status. But that is where the massive violation of human rights comes in and adds extra weight.

Dear OG !

Thank you for your comment . I can also tell you that a friend of mine was killed by a Bosniak who pretended to be a Serb … When Sergey let him approach the Bosniak shot him down… I think he was 24-25 years old and he had two years of Afghanistan behind.

In any case we have something that differs us even among other Slavic and Orthodox people. We never give up even when we are not strong enough to win right now. I respect those Serbs who fought the Turks in Kosovo and I really admire Draza Mikhailovich who rebelled when even the USSR was not involved in the war !

Yet as you know war is the worst way of solving problems. So I would like us to find a solution of K & M problem in a peaceful way. After all Albanians are also victims used by the Grossmeister. Look how they live in the reservation they created. Yes they are the most specific nation in Europe but they are also the neighbors you cannot get rid of. Therefore I wish you peace with your heads high but not what is offered you today.

To be honest we cannot forget that during WW2 some 20 000 Albanians led by E.Hodja fought on our side. As you must have understood I am not the Albanian Club member. But if we are seeking peace for Serbia we also have to take care of the things that do not confront you with your neighbors. When you may read this post Europe will celebrate the Victory Day. My congratulations and best regards for all those who tribute to this Great Victory !

P.S. We have a good site here : http://www.srpska.ru/

"It is interesting to label the ICJ process as "political games" already, unless there was a reason for it."

There is a reason for it. Russia is probably mindful of the conflicting decisions of whether the FRY was a member of the UN or not. The ICJ ruled it had no jurisdiction when the FRY tried bring a case against the NATO as the FRY was not a member. But it ruled that the case brought by BiH was legitimate as the SFRY had signed the Genocide Convention etc despite the FRY not being a member of the UN.

as the saying goes: be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.

'If the Serbian government were smart ... they should announce before the ruling that the only country that they will sue is the united states - ...'

On what basis? The US is a sovereign nation, it can recognize any country it pleases. Just as Serbia can refuse to recognize any nation that it chooses to.

johnboy,
I do not see fear coming from either the US or Albanian camp.
I do see big hypocrisy coming from the other side. If the verdict is pro Serb it is just and if it is pro Kosovo it is corrupt and politically motivated----same propaganda that Milosevic used to creat this mess. No changes hopefully the ICJ will see that.
Also I do not understand where anyone thinks that there will be any decision that would give Serbia the ability to sue another country financially.
The UN took Kosovo from Serbia in everyway except name, and there will never be a resolution in UNSC that gives any of it back to Serbia, so how can Serbia claim any type of loss due to UDI.
Recent statements by Serbian and Russian officials are preparing you for the outcome. Call in unjust if you wish or you can show that Serbia has moved from the past and that international law is for all the people.
peter in sydney--you might try to sugarcoat it as simple minority abuse--but with a number of resolutions by UNSC substantiating it as more, with a NATO condeming Serbia and launching a bombing campaign, with verdicts from the Hague, and given the fact that 10 years after Resolution 1244 UNSC (including Russia and China) have no plans or intentions of returning control to Serbia. I think will in the eyes of the ICJ raise the level higher than "minority abuse"

@Hands of Moscow

Thank you my Russian brother.
Always bear in mind that Americans and Albanians have nothing in common,Albanians are only being used and will be dropped sooner or later...
My friend,we have the same pravoslavic blood running through our veins that is what counts more than all geostrategic tactizizing...

Albanians sided with Austria-Hungary (the Americans of this age) in WW1,with the help of Russians we defeated them.

In WW2 Nazi Germany (the Americans of this age) were allied with the Albanians too(SS Skenderbeg division)and they lost again...

And this time they will loose again only this time we will solve the Kosovo problem once and for all in our favor...

I am proud that right after the kosovo war a group of around 1000 Serb volunteers fought alongside its Russian brothers in Chechnya where they finished what they weren`t allowed to do in Kosovo.

Priwjet !

DimTuc:
Was actually trying to be 'brief' - have trouble in that department sometimes.

Are many angles to this case & am sure ICJ will hear all of them. 'Sui generis' argument will be used by other separatist factions should UDI be ruled legal by ICJ & so really falls under 'territorial integriy' versus 'self-determination'. Ditto for human-rights abuses.

And wouldn't be so sure human-rights factor will carry the day.

Since war ended & serbs were kicked out, K-albanians haven't exactly 'covered themselves with glory' - starting with the disappearences after the war (& the claims of murder for body parts), up to the K-albanian pogrom of 2004, & continuing to this day with things like blocking medical supplies to hospitals etc.

And even during the war, K-albanians committed their fair-share of atrocities.


Found something interesting the other day which may also have a bearing on this.

'Freedom house' is a NGO (sponsored by US govt) & according to it's latest report:

On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is the best & 7 the worst, 'Kosovo in Serbia' (under the section on 'disputed territories') had a 'Political Rights' rating of 6 out of 7, a 'Civil Rights' rating of 5 out of 7 - and is categorised as 'Not Free'.

Serbia proper has ratings of 3, & 2 respectively & is categorised as free.


Personally think ICJ judges will want to err on the side of caution given the magnitude of the ramifications & will be looking for an 'out' - 1244 has a direct bearing on the legality of the UDI & clearly favours Serbia's case.

But, as others have said, will see what happens.

I feel very sad when I read comments that simply represent emotional opinions and have a huge lack of knowledge or realism in them.

Albanians, Serbs, and the rest of Europe are going to live together in the future under one political organizational unity called the European Union.

The IJC case for Kosovo won't be determined by the number of the countries who are being represented, but by the arguments and their legitimacy of each part. There are few if not none open minded people who expect that the case won't be in favor of Kosovo. Still there are always some, who just create the minority.

For those who understand the political reasoning behind this declaration Russia expects non the less that the case be in favor of Kosovo and is showing that it will criticize it, but won't do anymore than that. It simply says, "We are not going to like it, but we won't do anything about it."

On the other hand, it is showing clearly a lack of a clear strategy of the Russian foreign policy towards the future developments. The only continuity will be the hard position on contrast with the West, regarding Kosovo's independence as well.

The other important factor to notice is that it is showing the importance that Kosovo's recognition is reaching the point where Russia and Serbia alone are not going to oppose it. It is just predicting future developments not in favor of ICJ-Serbia's claims.

On the other side, Russia would be the last country who can impact the case while the last summers developments in Georgia have really shaken its position.

Just a remainder, Serbia hasn't even recognized the two separatist regions, South Abkhazia and Osstia which means that the relations between the two countries are not as close as many of you might think. When it comes to choosing between the East and the West Serbia, will, has to and will want to choose the West, just like any other Balkan country.

"... the International Court of Justice should declare Kosovo's attempt to secede to be illegal".

I have explained in the past about the Serbian ability to be a "superjudge" or "superCourt". Now I am finding out that the Russians are not doing that bad on the field.

Who the hell is that guy who is "taking ownership" in interpreting the international law?

Bear in mind that it was Serbia who asked the Court's Opinion.

One thing is certain Russia and Serbia's concern is not international law but their hegemonism otherwise everyone would have SHUT UP before the Court's Opinion.

Anyway it is only an Opnion.







"It is important that Russia and Serbia do not stand alone."

I agree with THAT there should be a Russian Federation where Serbia can be part of it. I can guarantee that Serbia doesn't have to make an application.

"We need other countries in order to block attempts to legalize Kosovo's independence," Kosachov explained.

Of course you need a lot. Blocking tactics will not get Serbia anywhere. Serbia will be treated exactely in the same way when it comes to blocking tactics.

To Amer No. 13.
You are right that souvereign nations reserve the right to recognize countries at their will.
Serbia has a right to recognize or not recognize any unilateral declaration of independence, too. That's its own decision.
However, recognizing Basqia (in Spain) is one thing, signing bilateral "defence contract" and sending weapons to ETA (or IRA, etc.) is another matter.
Or to bring it closer to you.
Should Spanish-speaking populaton declare unilaterally independence from the US, Serbia could choose to recognize it or not, however supplying them with weapons would still be an act of terrorisam since its still legally USA, no matter what Serbia believes.

But, the matter is not of any importance.
As stated in Article 93 of the UN Charter, all UN members are automatically parties to the Court's statute.
USA withdrew its acceptance in 1984 and it's still the only UN member country that does not recognize rule of international law in international relationship.
Court itself deals with two kinds of rulings.
Contentious issues and advisory oppinions.
An advisory opinion is a function of the Court open only to specified United Nations bodies and agencies (like in this case, proceedings were initiated by UN General Assambly vote). Advisory oppinion is not binding.
However, in the case of positive outcome for Serbia, it would be possible to preceed with a lawsuit (contentious cases, country to country lawsuit). Those rulings are binding to all UN members, Article 94 establishes the duty of all UN members to comply with decisions of the Court.
Or "the issue may be taken before the Security Council for enforcement action." (UN Sanctions, etc.)
There is an obvious problem. Suing US is not possible as it is only country that is exempt. Suing anyone else, and even winning the case would send the ruling to UN Security Council where US would veto any "enforcement action".
In a nutshell, best that Serbia can hope to gain from ICJ is of moral value, nothing else.

Comment No. 9 by PJD makes a good point.

Contentious cases are for individual UN members only.
Only states may be parties in contentious cases. Individuals, corporations, parts of a federal state, NGOs, UN organs and self-determination groups are excluded from direct participation in cases.
When old Yugoslavia "dissolved" by Badinter's decision in Nov 1991. New, FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) was given "empty seat" at the UN.

When Federal Republic of Yugoslavia failed a lawsuit against individual NATO countries ICJ deliberated that FR Yugoslavia was not enough of a UN member, due to the "empty seat" they had at UN.
Same court later deliberated that FR Yugoslavia was enough of a UN member to be sued by Bosnia , and that "empty seat, inter alia, does not affect membership in UN, or ability of the state to appear before the court" .

It is completelly illogical that same court would declare FRY to be UN member and not to be UN member in the same time. With that in mind, I would not exclude political interference with the work of this court. There simply cannot be other explanation for the decisions described above.

my dear albanian friend "shq",

don´t get it wrong if I say that, but you shouldn´t be posing questions of that level of naivety, I know you are smarter than that.

of course, 2 years are no significantly longer period to judge the issue of the southern serbian province of KiM.

but nevertheless,

Serbia is gaining support, the ( simple-minded ) criminals in Priština had to accept that their big supporters in the UNSC withdrew their laughable attempt to get a majority in that political body.

they had to withdraw in order to avoid an even more obvious defeat.

so the bootlickers in Priština were told to unilaterally "declare" "independence", what I would simply call a farce ( that´s french, just in case you shouldn´t know the meaning - now you can google it )

you think that was a victory, I think it was the nail in your coffin.

your position is by far not that good as your tabloids and yellow-papers in down-town Priština would like to make you believe.

so, it´s always good if one looks back into the past, especially if it is an Albanian ( given that most Albanians literally don´t know anything about their origin and are doomed to believe in myths and wishful thinking )

my dear, if you ask me seriously - Serbia has won supporters and is increasing the number of supporters.

you have been mislead by the US, since you have made the mistake to refuse to act accordingly ( in regard to international law ).

and now you are on the way downhill. slowly but surely.

need I say more? I guess no.
and you shouldn´t lose sight of the simple fact that this is a game that has to be seen in the long run.

and, as you certainly will deep inside already know it - time is on Serbia´s side.

and therefore I keep writing "let´s see what future brings!" - and I do that with good reason.

you will see.

"let´s just see what future brings..."
(Jovan, 6 May 2009 22:50)

Sometimes, it is helpful to go read articles from the past and, with the hindsight gained, see better some things, compare the predictions with what actually happened, etc. So, Jovan, I saw that in the past two years you have been repeating this "Let's see what future brings...", and I have a question. What would you tell to yourself about the future, if you could go two years back in time Jovan, say at the times of Kostunica, or at the times of the talks about status, or before the elections in Serbia? What did the future bring?

Sreten 19:

"USA withdrew its acceptance in 1984 and it's still the only UN member country that does not recognize rule of international law in international relationship."

Not exactly. See the following ICJ site:

http://www.icj-cij.org/jurisdiction/index.php?p1=5&p2=1&p3=3

"The States parties to the Statute of the Court MAY [my emphasis] "at any time declare that they recognize as compulsory ... the jurisdiction of the Court."

And then they can bring other states who have agreed to accept the court's rulings as compulsory to the ICJ. But the list at this site included only 66 states that have filed such declarations. Of the Security Council members, only The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has. Serbia, by the way, has not.

Art

"Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much. "

Who is we? Are Albania or Kosovo in the EU? The EU is pro-Serbian and wants them in in the future, contrary to what you seem to wish.

The "pick and choose" mentality of Serbia from the "buffet of the international law" has not changed. They will only accept a decision that they will like, regardless where it comes from.

It was seen with Res. 1244, where for the last 10 years, they were ONLY referring to sections that they liked, and ignored everything else.

Let's not talk about the respecting of the international law during the Serbian aggression of its neighbors in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

Serbia will ignore the ICJ outcome. Jeremic said it himself... and I quote "Anyway, whatever happens, we are bound primarily by the Constitution of Serbia."

'Jeremic said it himself... and I quote "Anyway, whatever happens, we are bound primarily by the Constitution of Serbia."'

Which Constitution is a lot like the weather where I live here in New England: "If you don't like it, wait a few minutes."

Konstantin Kosachov told Belgrade daily Večernje Novosti that there is a possibility that this court will again start playing political games and making decisions not based on law.

I think Konstantin has just realized that the outcome from ICJ will in favour of Kosova, so no before the opinon has been rendered he is admiting defeat and claming that maybe politics will influence the opinion of the court.
Is it little to late for that? Serbia should have thought before they decided to take the case to ICJ, which also non-biding.

I beg the Serbian people to never allow Serbia to join NATO. We should fight our own wars not the ones of NATO.

If the ICJ ruling is non-binding and meaningless, why do the us and the albos fear it so much? The question was worded for a yes or no answer; anything less and the ICJ loses its reputation to rule on anything. The ICJ faces two choices: YES and the UN loses all of its power to effect any changes in the world or NO and Serbia files lawsuits against all countries that don't withdraw recognition of Kosovo. If the Serbian government were smart (this is a big IF), they should announce before the ruling that the only country that they will sue is the united states - the biggest obstacle to world peace today.

It is interesting to label the ICJ process as "political games" already, unless there was a reason for it.

Also, Council of Europe is more and more irrelevant as an institution, and from what I have heard, Kosovo has no interest in joining it.

The ICJ will consider three principles of International Law, self-determination, inviolability of borders, and human rights, and, claiming that Kosovo is sui generis, will declare that no international law has been broken in this case and the final status talks and declaration of independence were in line with preceding laws. It will claim that the government of Kosovo was in power as a result of free and fair elections, representing an adequate portion of Kosovo's population in order to make such important decisions.
It will recommend UNSC Res 1244 null as a result of its full implementation as the final status of Kosovo has been decided. All in all, it will declare the act of declaration of independence as legal, but will claim that recognitions from other states is a political matter and outside its jurisdiction.

Those now ranting that if ICJ decides against Serbia is only a result of the court's politicization are doing a disservice to themselves and to international law. We all know Russians and their Soviet mentality, and how they would always cry foul play when anything went against them. Looks like Serbia is the poster child. Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much.

Good day

Russian KJB-FSB corrupt politicians should not speak of law that is a joke. They are the worst offenders to the Russian citizens rights also to their God given freedoms and never mined other nationality's under their control even worse off.

Konstantin Kosachov told Belgrade daily Večernje Novosti that there is a possibility that this court will again start playing political games and making decisions not based on law.

"That would be a great defeat for international law and the court," he warned.

Russians talking about international law.Hypocrisy to the max.What international law did the Russians respect when they attacked the sovereign country of Georgia?Or when they recognized the independence of S.Osetia& Abkhazia?Or when they officially anexed those two regions last week?

As for the Serbs claiming how important is this ICJ case for the world.Keep dreaming. Each conflict in the world will be solved according to the interest of the countries that have the power in those regions.As for the UN it was bypassed before it will be bypassed in the future.The West keep it in place and finance it,so it can do whatever it wants with it.

"... the International Court of Justice should declare Kosovo's attempt to secede to be illegal".

I have explained in the past about the Serbian ability to be a "superjudge" or "superCourt". Now I am finding out that the Russians are not doing that bad on the field.

Who the hell is that guy who is "taking ownership" in interpreting the international law?

Bear in mind that it was Serbia who asked the Court's Opinion.

One thing is certain Russia and Serbia's concern is not international law but their hegemonism otherwise everyone would have SHUT UP before the Court's Opinion.

Anyway it is only an Opnion.







"It is important that Russia and Serbia do not stand alone."

I agree with THAT there should be a Russian Federation where Serbia can be part of it. I can guarantee that Serbia doesn't have to make an application.

"We need other countries in order to block attempts to legalize Kosovo's independence," Kosachov explained.

Of course you need a lot. Blocking tactics will not get Serbia anywhere. Serbia will be treated exactely in the same way when it comes to blocking tactics.

johnboy,
I do not see fear coming from either the US or Albanian camp.
I do see big hypocrisy coming from the other side. If the verdict is pro Serb it is just and if it is pro Kosovo it is corrupt and politically motivated----same propaganda that Milosevic used to creat this mess. No changes hopefully the ICJ will see that.
Also I do not understand where anyone thinks that there will be any decision that would give Serbia the ability to sue another country financially.
The UN took Kosovo from Serbia in everyway except name, and there will never be a resolution in UNSC that gives any of it back to Serbia, so how can Serbia claim any type of loss due to UDI.
Recent statements by Serbian and Russian officials are preparing you for the outcome. Call in unjust if you wish or you can show that Serbia has moved from the past and that international law is for all the people.
peter in sydney--you might try to sugarcoat it as simple minority abuse--but with a number of resolutions by UNSC substantiating it as more, with a NATO condeming Serbia and launching a bombing campaign, with verdicts from the Hague, and given the fact that 10 years after Resolution 1244 UNSC (including Russia and China) have no plans or intentions of returning control to Serbia. I think will in the eyes of the ICJ raise the level higher than "minority abuse"

How do I read a statement but as a political pressure to a non-political judicial body.

The Russian diplomat is doing himself exactly what he is warning the ICJ off.

One should not blame much the Russian chief of the delegation. He comes from a country where it is normal for the politicians to tell the justice what to do.

'If the Serbian government were smart ... they should announce before the ruling that the only country that they will sue is the united states - ...'

On what basis? The US is a sovereign nation, it can recognize any country it pleases. Just as Serbia can refuse to recognize any nation that it chooses to.

as the saying goes: be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.

Kosova-USA:
Case before the ICJ is one of the more important to be put before it. Issue is which takes precedence - right to self-determination or territorial integrity. Doubt the ICJ will give the green list to secessionists all over the place as courts are usually conservative & UDI clearly violates 1244.

K-albanians would argue that minority abuse is sufficient grounds, but abuses happened on both sides of the conflict.

As for Kosachov's statement, he is just covering all options - just as you & others are when they say "besides, the courts decision is non-binding".

Brothers !

As I understand this is the first time we are counter attacking. For 10 damned years we were mostly defending and not very successful. So the things are changing for better. Look how many western people feel compassion for Serbs ! Just few years ago Serbs were demonized almost like the Russians. But now their propaganda machine gave a leak and common peple in the West can also afford other than the CNN vision of the events.

From this point of view the ICJ is another step to show the world who is who in Europe and in the Balkanes particularly. The balance in the court is 45% against 55% in the US favor but in any case we shall profit the best free of charge PR to unmask the scoundrels that attacked you and to tear apart you Fatherland.

The greater part of the world is on our side so we shall find other places to give way to the truth. On the eve of our joint Victory when during 3 years we almost alone fought against the united Europe I assure you we have enough power to restore justice on the continent once again . Long live Serbia !

"Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much. "

my dear friend "Art",

first of all, YOU ( the Albanians in general ) won´t be asked at all.

that´s something you should be realistic about.

secondly:
Serbia will join the EU anyway. EU needs us more inside "their" borders than we need THEM.

that´s something you are continuously ignoring, but nevertheless, it´s a well-known fact.

as for the russian official, those desperate attempts to declare his statement as a "prophecy of defeat" are just too amusing.

I´d say the russians are quite smart - they are pulling attention on the issue.

that´s good. it´s quite good to keep the issue in the world´s mind. and that´s what they do, nothing more and nothing less.

if you plan to go on with wishful thinking, then you have my blessing...

=)


let´s just see what future brings...

@Hands of Moscow

Thank you my Russian brother.
Always bear in mind that Americans and Albanians have nothing in common,Albanians are only being used and will be dropped sooner or later...
My friend,we have the same pravoslavic blood running through our veins that is what counts more than all geostrategic tactizizing...

Albanians sided with Austria-Hungary (the Americans of this age) in WW1,with the help of Russians we defeated them.

In WW2 Nazi Germany (the Americans of this age) were allied with the Albanians too(SS Skenderbeg division)and they lost again...

And this time they will loose again only this time we will solve the Kosovo problem once and for all in our favor...

I am proud that right after the kosovo war a group of around 1000 Serb volunteers fought alongside its Russian brothers in Chechnya where they finished what they weren`t allowed to do in Kosovo.

Priwjet !

"let´s just see what future brings..."
(Jovan, 6 May 2009 22:50)

Sometimes, it is helpful to go read articles from the past and, with the hindsight gained, see better some things, compare the predictions with what actually happened, etc. So, Jovan, I saw that in the past two years you have been repeating this "Let's see what future brings...", and I have a question. What would you tell to yourself about the future, if you could go two years back in time Jovan, say at the times of Kostunica, or at the times of the talks about status, or before the elections in Serbia? What did the future bring?

The ICJ case will be extremely interesting, it will act as a litmus test for the ICJ itself and set the standard for if it will be a political court or if it will be court based upon the rule of law.

"It is interesting to label the ICJ process as "political games" already, unless there was a reason for it."

There is a reason for it. Russia is probably mindful of the conflicting decisions of whether the FRY was a member of the UN or not. The ICJ ruled it had no jurisdiction when the FRY tried bring a case against the NATO as the FRY was not a member. But it ruled that the case brought by BiH was legitimate as the SFRY had signed the Genocide Convention etc despite the FRY not being a member of the UN.

To Amer No. 13.
You are right that souvereign nations reserve the right to recognize countries at their will.
Serbia has a right to recognize or not recognize any unilateral declaration of independence, too. That's its own decision.
However, recognizing Basqia (in Spain) is one thing, signing bilateral "defence contract" and sending weapons to ETA (or IRA, etc.) is another matter.
Or to bring it closer to you.
Should Spanish-speaking populaton declare unilaterally independence from the US, Serbia could choose to recognize it or not, however supplying them with weapons would still be an act of terrorisam since its still legally USA, no matter what Serbia believes.

But, the matter is not of any importance.
As stated in Article 93 of the UN Charter, all UN members are automatically parties to the Court's statute.
USA withdrew its acceptance in 1984 and it's still the only UN member country that does not recognize rule of international law in international relationship.
Court itself deals with two kinds of rulings.
Contentious issues and advisory oppinions.
An advisory opinion is a function of the Court open only to specified United Nations bodies and agencies (like in this case, proceedings were initiated by UN General Assambly vote). Advisory oppinion is not binding.
However, in the case of positive outcome for Serbia, it would be possible to preceed with a lawsuit (contentious cases, country to country lawsuit). Those rulings are binding to all UN members, Article 94 establishes the duty of all UN members to comply with decisions of the Court.
Or "the issue may be taken before the Security Council for enforcement action." (UN Sanctions, etc.)
There is an obvious problem. Suing US is not possible as it is only country that is exempt. Suing anyone else, and even winning the case would send the ruling to UN Security Council where US would veto any "enforcement action".
In a nutshell, best that Serbia can hope to gain from ICJ is of moral value, nothing else.

Comment No. 9 by PJD makes a good point.

Contentious cases are for individual UN members only.
Only states may be parties in contentious cases. Individuals, corporations, parts of a federal state, NGOs, UN organs and self-determination groups are excluded from direct participation in cases.
When old Yugoslavia "dissolved" by Badinter's decision in Nov 1991. New, FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) was given "empty seat" at the UN.

When Federal Republic of Yugoslavia failed a lawsuit against individual NATO countries ICJ deliberated that FR Yugoslavia was not enough of a UN member, due to the "empty seat" they had at UN.
Same court later deliberated that FR Yugoslavia was enough of a UN member to be sued by Bosnia , and that "empty seat, inter alia, does not affect membership in UN, or ability of the state to appear before the court" .

It is completelly illogical that same court would declare FRY to be UN member and not to be UN member in the same time. With that in mind, I would not exclude political interference with the work of this court. There simply cannot be other explanation for the decisions described above.

Peter:
“Case before the ICJ is one of the more important to be put before it. Issue is which takes precedence - right to self-determination or territorial integrity. K-albanians would argue that minority abuse is sufficient grounds, but abuses happened on both sides of the conflict”

Peter, you and others are ignoring the fact that support for the independence argument, legally, does not only come from the angle of minority abuse, which would indeed be the same in many parts of the world. It also comes from the reality that the actual legal status of Kosovo within the Yugoslav federation is in dispute, as it was neither a full republic (with the clear right to secession) nor a mere autonomous province of Serbia, as many here want to make out. It was a republic in all but name, and a direct unit of the Yugoslav federation in its own right, despite a formal status as part of Serbia. It was represented equally and independently in the federal government. Then, given the way the federation fell apart, with the complete abrogation of the constitution by Milosevic and his gang, naturally there is a strong argument that Kosovo had the right to got the same way as the republics. Yes, perhaps one could argue that it could go either way, given its in between status. But that is where the massive violation of human rights comes in and adds extra weight.

Dear OG !

Thank you for your comment . I can also tell you that a friend of mine was killed by a Bosniak who pretended to be a Serb … When Sergey let him approach the Bosniak shot him down… I think he was 24-25 years old and he had two years of Afghanistan behind.

In any case we have something that differs us even among other Slavic and Orthodox people. We never give up even when we are not strong enough to win right now. I respect those Serbs who fought the Turks in Kosovo and I really admire Draza Mikhailovich who rebelled when even the USSR was not involved in the war !

Yet as you know war is the worst way of solving problems. So I would like us to find a solution of K & M problem in a peaceful way. After all Albanians are also victims used by the Grossmeister. Look how they live in the reservation they created. Yes they are the most specific nation in Europe but they are also the neighbors you cannot get rid of. Therefore I wish you peace with your heads high but not what is offered you today.

To be honest we cannot forget that during WW2 some 20 000 Albanians led by E.Hodja fought on our side. As you must have understood I am not the Albanian Club member. But if we are seeking peace for Serbia we also have to take care of the things that do not confront you with your neighbors. When you may read this post Europe will celebrate the Victory Day. My congratulations and best regards for all those who tribute to this Great Victory !

P.S. We have a good site here : http://www.srpska.ru/

I feel very sad when I read comments that simply represent emotional opinions and have a huge lack of knowledge or realism in them.

Albanians, Serbs, and the rest of Europe are going to live together in the future under one political organizational unity called the European Union.

The IJC case for Kosovo won't be determined by the number of the countries who are being represented, but by the arguments and their legitimacy of each part. There are few if not none open minded people who expect that the case won't be in favor of Kosovo. Still there are always some, who just create the minority.

For those who understand the political reasoning behind this declaration Russia expects non the less that the case be in favor of Kosovo and is showing that it will criticize it, but won't do anymore than that. It simply says, "We are not going to like it, but we won't do anything about it."

On the other hand, it is showing clearly a lack of a clear strategy of the Russian foreign policy towards the future developments. The only continuity will be the hard position on contrast with the West, regarding Kosovo's independence as well.

The other important factor to notice is that it is showing the importance that Kosovo's recognition is reaching the point where Russia and Serbia alone are not going to oppose it. It is just predicting future developments not in favor of ICJ-Serbia's claims.

On the other side, Russia would be the last country who can impact the case while the last summers developments in Georgia have really shaken its position.

Just a remainder, Serbia hasn't even recognized the two separatist regions, South Abkhazia and Osstia which means that the relations between the two countries are not as close as many of you might think. When it comes to choosing between the East and the West Serbia, will, has to and will want to choose the West, just like any other Balkan country.

The "pick and choose" mentality of Serbia from the "buffet of the international law" has not changed. They will only accept a decision that they will like, regardless where it comes from.

It was seen with Res. 1244, where for the last 10 years, they were ONLY referring to sections that they liked, and ignored everything else.

Let's not talk about the respecting of the international law during the Serbian aggression of its neighbors in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

Serbia will ignore the ICJ outcome. Jeremic said it himself... and I quote "Anyway, whatever happens, we are bound primarily by the Constitution of Serbia."

Sreten 19:

"USA withdrew its acceptance in 1984 and it's still the only UN member country that does not recognize rule of international law in international relationship."

Not exactly. See the following ICJ site:

http://www.icj-cij.org/jurisdiction/index.php?p1=5&p2=1&p3=3

"The States parties to the Statute of the Court MAY [my emphasis] "at any time declare that they recognize as compulsory ... the jurisdiction of the Court."

And then they can bring other states who have agreed to accept the court's rulings as compulsory to the ICJ. But the list at this site included only 66 states that have filed such declarations. Of the Security Council members, only The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has. Serbia, by the way, has not.

DimTuc:
Was actually trying to be 'brief' - have trouble in that department sometimes.

Are many angles to this case & am sure ICJ will hear all of them. 'Sui generis' argument will be used by other separatist factions should UDI be ruled legal by ICJ & so really falls under 'territorial integriy' versus 'self-determination'. Ditto for human-rights abuses.

And wouldn't be so sure human-rights factor will carry the day.

Since war ended & serbs were kicked out, K-albanians haven't exactly 'covered themselves with glory' - starting with the disappearences after the war (& the claims of murder for body parts), up to the K-albanian pogrom of 2004, & continuing to this day with things like blocking medical supplies to hospitals etc.

And even during the war, K-albanians committed their fair-share of atrocities.


Found something interesting the other day which may also have a bearing on this.

'Freedom house' is a NGO (sponsored by US govt) & according to it's latest report:

On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is the best & 7 the worst, 'Kosovo in Serbia' (under the section on 'disputed territories') had a 'Political Rights' rating of 6 out of 7, a 'Civil Rights' rating of 5 out of 7 - and is categorised as 'Not Free'.

Serbia proper has ratings of 3, & 2 respectively & is categorised as free.


Personally think ICJ judges will want to err on the side of caution given the magnitude of the ramifications & will be looking for an 'out' - 1244 has a direct bearing on the legality of the UDI & clearly favours Serbia's case.

But, as others have said, will see what happens.

my dear albanian friend "shq",

don´t get it wrong if I say that, but you shouldn´t be posing questions of that level of naivety, I know you are smarter than that.

of course, 2 years are no significantly longer period to judge the issue of the southern serbian province of KiM.

but nevertheless,

Serbia is gaining support, the ( simple-minded ) criminals in Priština had to accept that their big supporters in the UNSC withdrew their laughable attempt to get a majority in that political body.

they had to withdraw in order to avoid an even more obvious defeat.

so the bootlickers in Priština were told to unilaterally "declare" "independence", what I would simply call a farce ( that´s french, just in case you shouldn´t know the meaning - now you can google it )

you think that was a victory, I think it was the nail in your coffin.

your position is by far not that good as your tabloids and yellow-papers in down-town Priština would like to make you believe.

so, it´s always good if one looks back into the past, especially if it is an Albanian ( given that most Albanians literally don´t know anything about their origin and are doomed to believe in myths and wishful thinking )

my dear, if you ask me seriously - Serbia has won supporters and is increasing the number of supporters.

you have been mislead by the US, since you have made the mistake to refuse to act accordingly ( in regard to international law ).

and now you are on the way downhill. slowly but surely.

need I say more? I guess no.
and you shouldn´t lose sight of the simple fact that this is a game that has to be seen in the long run.

and, as you certainly will deep inside already know it - time is on Serbia´s side.

and therefore I keep writing "let´s see what future brings!" - and I do that with good reason.

you will see.

Art

"Let's hope that Serbia is barred from the EU; we don't want a Russian satellite state thank you very much. "

Who is we? Are Albania or Kosovo in the EU? The EU is pro-Serbian and wants them in in the future, contrary to what you seem to wish.

'Jeremic said it himself... and I quote "Anyway, whatever happens, we are bound primarily by the Constitution of Serbia."'

Which Constitution is a lot like the weather where I live here in New England: "If you don't like it, wait a few minutes."