Will ministers snub Pride Parade invitation?

As an American, I can tell you that, our moral society is attacked on a daily basis by those who support these types immoral acts. It is perverted to even think that it is democratic to equate a sexual preference to that of a nationality. Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.

I personally don't have anything against homosexualls but I don't want my children to see them kiss and grope eachother in public. What they do privately I don't care but please keep it to yourselves.
In Stockholm, Sweden, the have an annual parade and some of them are almost naked. They have no respect for anything or anybody but demand respect and acceptance.

Great I see the ultra rightists are out in force today.

'Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.'

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.

On the issue somebody from government should attend. Why? To make sure that criminality and violence is not allowed to occur

Personally I don't have a problem with gay marches. If I don't like it I can keep my kids away on that day. Seeing two men or women kiss in public is hardly going to 'turn' anyone.

The march is to make part of the community visible and to illustrate their inclusion in society, therefore a minister should be present at some point if only to show that modern governments support the rights of all.

I understand MikeC's point of view which is reasonably put, but some of the following comments about filth and perversion sound like a bible thumping hate rally.

Consensual love between two people who want to share a kiss in public every now and again is hardly the same as real perversions, such as the sexual crimes against children and women which happen frequently. Or the sex trade where non consenting young girls or trafficked women are raped for money.

Walking around some cities in Europe there are random images on news stands etc. which are offensive and degrading to women, and which you certainly wouldn't want your kids to see. Apparently this is okay, but the occasional sight of two people of the same sex kissing or holding hands isn't?

The only issue I have about homosexuality is any attempt to promote it as an 'option' in school before kids sort out what they are. I think that kids should be left alone; teenage years are already complicated and angst ridden enough. There should be confidential support for gay teenagers, and society and education generally should encourage people to be tolerant and respectful towards others.

I agree with John that nobody chooses to be gay. Who would you seek to be discriminated against and treated with disrespect?

I am always shocked to hear otherwise rational people saying they would disown their child if they were gay, or that gay soldiers shouldn't be allowed in the forces (do people really think that they will be 'distracted' while fighting?!). Or that being gay is catching.

People don't wake up one morning and chose to be gay. It's not an easy life for a lot of gay people. One's sexuality is set at an early age. If the contributions of gay people were taken away the world would damn near grind to a halt. People need to live and let live. I know there are excesses in the public. But that works both ways, doesn't it?

Vermont Patriot took the words right out of my mouth.

Ataman - I would agree that the situation may be a challenge within a family, but one which would have to be solved and accepted. I would be more worried by the reaction of others to a gay member of my family than I would about the actual fact that they were gay.

Perhaps it is easier for a mother to accept these things than a father - I don't know.

I would also agree that in countries where people would be less tolerant of these issues there should be more sensitivity shown with regards to content of marches etc. I would like to think that in return there was no violence or outright hate shown by general members of the public.

As you say, this is an issue about rights and inclusion in society.

marko I think thats a fair comment, but the reason I believe a political leader should be at the event is because the police will then be forced to protect the parade from the usual bunch.

And you know who the usual bunch are and what they believe they are defending - and they are not without support from those higher up the food chain.

Thats the danger, unless somebody within clergy steps up (for want of a better term) the church will eventually become marginalised in Serbian society. They don't have to adopt modern faddish methods we see with some religions with their modernisation.

As you suggest within Christianity, if it is properly applied, the solultion is already there. Hatred is not to be tolerated, nor physically attacking fellow man, nor is turning the other way and pretending that those doing the attacking are defending 'orthodox values'.

The quality of democracy and civilisation can be judged by how well that country treats it’s minorities. In recent years Belgrade Pride has been attacked by neo fascists and bully boys whilst police seemed unable or unwilling to intervene and protect the peaceful marchers. We even saw young males attack female marchers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppXVAocEHSk

I know that all civilised people, including the vast majority of serbs will be horrified to be seen to be part of this. This is why we need to take a stand

This is one of the reasons why I guess the gay straight alliance wants senior politicians to become involved in the day. They offer a protection of sorts. But, to me, what is much more important is that they provide an example of acceptance, inclusion and tolerance. There is no shame in being gay or lesbian. If politicians, civic leaders and even religious leaders can say such a thing, then Serbia will be able to carry on it’s journey away from the dark days of the past. I wish them the best of luck.

Peace and respect to all.
GRUK

Roberto - Serbia may have a long way to go on the issue, as have many other places.

Gay people may face bigotry, but they do survive in Belgrade where as if they come out in Kosovo it becomes a life-threatening situation on which they have been forced to claim asylum abroad.

But some of the homophobic comments above may not by Serbs at all. I have heard views like that in the States, along with other shockers which belong in the Stone Ages about black people, women etc. etc.

I am only saying this seeing as you had a pop about Serbia in particular, but as far as I can tell there is a great multi-ethnic mix of people living in Belgrade. Far more progressive than in provinces such as Kosovo.

as for the nationalist belgrade regime, what a surprise (not).

every lgbt person who can live and survive over there deserves a special place in heaven, just on principle.

roberto
civilized frisco
(roberto, 3 May 2009 17:14)

Roberto - worth to read before commenting on horrors in Belgrade.

http://tinyurl.com/5u5maq
http://tinyurl.com/cpdtv9

I do not know, why is it "cool" to call the "Belgrade regime" names. You never miss the opportunity to do so and I don't see any justification of that because almost any government around is more "nationalist".

If you refer to the certain "gentleman" who refused to provide Sava Center to the straight-gay alliance and used completely wrong wording in public - there you are right. But as far as I recall, he is being "fried" in the court right now.

To Kate: yes, it would be probably a difficult ordeal and a big challenge for everybody's family. Luckily, I have no close encounter (wood, wood) with such cases. I wish to all here to stay uninvolved. I wish to organizers of the parades to be more sensitive regarding what should be displayed and also the timing. Such event should be a victory (no matter, how small) of tolerance, and not like in BP list year an other nazi victory.

in the free part of Serbia a socalled pride-parade can take place.

I don´t think this is possible in the occupied part of Serbia, namely in Kosovo i Metohija.

that´s mainly because of the support of US-american interests, so every US-american should perhaps rather stay quiet in regard to this topic.

thanks to the US, criminals and clan-structures are ( temporarily ) ruling in southern Serbia.

Kate i agree with much of what you said except for the bible thumping part- I am orthodox, we have been around since 33 ad. We are old school and we are here to stay; got a problem with that?

I feel that Serbia needs to be a modern Orthodox Society and a functioning democracy. I feel that we should be guided by Jesus Christ who commanded us not to judge our neighbor. don't judge my religous belief and I should not judge anyone else

If we choose to repress homosexuals we can be neither Christians nor a democracy. We are left with hate and hypocrisy.
look at the celebrities and politicians we idolize who change spouses like shirts; no one says anything about adultery but we get all this moral indignation when it comes to homosexuality.

Is it because we feel that one of these things is fun while the other is gross?

I don't feel it is necessary to have a leader attend the gay pride events and that should be left exclusively up to the leader; why would the gay activists want a politician there that does not support inclusion; they wont change his mind by forcing his hand.

Instead I think that the leaders and opposition leaders should meet with Gay activist leaders just as they do with business leaders, union leaders, lobby groups etc and hear them out.

i've met people from pretty much all countries of the west balkans and homophobia seems to be widespread everywhere. the news from the region speaks the same story. you can always count on a certain someone "from frisco" to single out serbia and serbian "nationalist regime" whenever possible, though. i mean, some other governments in the region are more nationalist than the serbian government. and in the context of what has been said about the sensitivity of the way gay people will try to make themselves more visible and accepted (i agree with that), we can also ask a question about how to combat nationalism which is indeed a far bigger problem in most countries in the region. politically i do not think present serbian government can be described as nationalist, but serbian society is (like most, probably all others in the region). serbian government has to operate in such environment and in addition has to deal with double standards of the west (which are there for geo-political reasons).

certainly westernes who are simply preaching morals all the way "from frisco" are not going to be helpful. you need an honest dialogue. you need to acknowledge legitimate concerns of the people you are talking to and think about the way to move forward. kudos to those who are doing just that.

Great I see the ultra rightists are out in force today.

'Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.'

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.

On the issue somebody from government should attend. Why? To make sure that criminality and violence is not allowed to occur
(bganon, 2 May 2009 23:28)

What in the heck are you talking about??? EVERYONE knows, including the past presidential cabinets that the Albanians represent 10% of the Serbian population.

Anyway, this Gay Pride Parade doesn't belong in moral societies...and I believe that most Albanians would agree to this as well, knowing their strict family traditions.

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.
(bganon, 2 May 2009 23:28)

It's only relative. The overwhelming majority of population in such diverse countries like Russia, Iran, Argentina, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Hungary either does share the "Albanian" view or is even more extreme.

With all respect to locals: Moscow, Beograd, Pristina and Buenos Aires is not San Francisco. Who organizes these parades should be more sensitive regarding WHAT is being on-display and HOW the parade is proceeding.

The goal of such parade is to underscore that these people are part of the society, not to provoke the society. The later won't do any good to the gays and will just further isolate them.

Otherwise I have to admit, while knowing what is the politically correct thing, I would be deeply sad if one day I would learn, someone in my extended family is part of the "alternate" lifestyle. There is no question of "disowning" of children or relatives - but who does not admit, in any country it's a big challenge to the entire family, is not saying the truth.

Being part of the loosely-defined lgbt community isn't easy anywhere, altho in places like highly civilized Scandinavian countries, or certain urban areas (like here) life can be fairly decent.

in the balkans it ranges from difficult to utter hell (as i've heard from many) and serbia -- well, just read the above comments for a sampling. not just the "ultra-rightists"!

as for the nationalist belgrade regime, what a surprise (not).

every lgbt person who can live and survive over there deserves a special place in heaven, just on principle.

roberto
civilized frisco

As an American, I can tell you that, our moral society is attacked on a daily basis by those who support these types immoral acts. It is perverted to even think that it is democratic to equate a sexual preference to that of a nationality. Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.

I personally don't have anything against homosexualls but I don't want my children to see them kiss and grope eachother in public. What they do privately I don't care but please keep it to yourselves.
In Stockholm, Sweden, the have an annual parade and some of them are almost naked. They have no respect for anything or anybody but demand respect and acceptance.

People don't wake up one morning and chose to be gay. It's not an easy life for a lot of gay people. One's sexuality is set at an early age. If the contributions of gay people were taken away the world would damn near grind to a halt. People need to live and let live. I know there are excesses in the public. But that works both ways, doesn't it?

Great I see the ultra rightists are out in force today.

'Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.'

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.

On the issue somebody from government should attend. Why? To make sure that criminality and violence is not allowed to occur
(bganon, 2 May 2009 23:28)

What in the heck are you talking about??? EVERYONE knows, including the past presidential cabinets that the Albanians represent 10% of the Serbian population.

Anyway, this Gay Pride Parade doesn't belong in moral societies...and I believe that most Albanians would agree to this as well, knowing their strict family traditions.

Vermont Patriot took the words right out of my mouth.

Great I see the ultra rightists are out in force today.

'Don't let 10% dictate to the rest of your society.'

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.

On the issue somebody from government should attend. Why? To make sure that criminality and violence is not allowed to occur

in the free part of Serbia a socalled pride-parade can take place.

I don´t think this is possible in the occupied part of Serbia, namely in Kosovo i Metohija.

that´s mainly because of the support of US-american interests, so every US-american should perhaps rather stay quiet in regard to this topic.

thanks to the US, criminals and clan-structures are ( temporarily ) ruling in southern Serbia.

Being part of the loosely-defined lgbt community isn't easy anywhere, altho in places like highly civilized Scandinavian countries, or certain urban areas (like here) life can be fairly decent.

in the balkans it ranges from difficult to utter hell (as i've heard from many) and serbia -- well, just read the above comments for a sampling. not just the "ultra-rightists"!

as for the nationalist belgrade regime, what a surprise (not).

every lgbt person who can live and survive over there deserves a special place in heaven, just on principle.

roberto
civilized frisco

Its heartening to know that this Albanian view is supported by a patriot such as yourself.
(bganon, 2 May 2009 23:28)

It's only relative. The overwhelming majority of population in such diverse countries like Russia, Iran, Argentina, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Hungary either does share the "Albanian" view or is even more extreme.

With all respect to locals: Moscow, Beograd, Pristina and Buenos Aires is not San Francisco. Who organizes these parades should be more sensitive regarding WHAT is being on-display and HOW the parade is proceeding.

The goal of such parade is to underscore that these people are part of the society, not to provoke the society. The later won't do any good to the gays and will just further isolate them.

Otherwise I have to admit, while knowing what is the politically correct thing, I would be deeply sad if one day I would learn, someone in my extended family is part of the "alternate" lifestyle. There is no question of "disowning" of children or relatives - but who does not admit, in any country it's a big challenge to the entire family, is not saying the truth.

Roberto - Serbia may have a long way to go on the issue, as have many other places.

Gay people may face bigotry, but they do survive in Belgrade where as if they come out in Kosovo it becomes a life-threatening situation on which they have been forced to claim asylum abroad.

But some of the homophobic comments above may not by Serbs at all. I have heard views like that in the States, along with other shockers which belong in the Stone Ages about black people, women etc. etc.

I am only saying this seeing as you had a pop about Serbia in particular, but as far as I can tell there is a great multi-ethnic mix of people living in Belgrade. Far more progressive than in provinces such as Kosovo.

Personally I don't have a problem with gay marches. If I don't like it I can keep my kids away on that day. Seeing two men or women kiss in public is hardly going to 'turn' anyone.

The march is to make part of the community visible and to illustrate their inclusion in society, therefore a minister should be present at some point if only to show that modern governments support the rights of all.

I understand MikeC's point of view which is reasonably put, but some of the following comments about filth and perversion sound like a bible thumping hate rally.

Consensual love between two people who want to share a kiss in public every now and again is hardly the same as real perversions, such as the sexual crimes against children and women which happen frequently. Or the sex trade where non consenting young girls or trafficked women are raped for money.

Walking around some cities in Europe there are random images on news stands etc. which are offensive and degrading to women, and which you certainly wouldn't want your kids to see. Apparently this is okay, but the occasional sight of two people of the same sex kissing or holding hands isn't?

The only issue I have about homosexuality is any attempt to promote it as an 'option' in school before kids sort out what they are. I think that kids should be left alone; teenage years are already complicated and angst ridden enough. There should be confidential support for gay teenagers, and society and education generally should encourage people to be tolerant and respectful towards others.

I agree with John that nobody chooses to be gay. Who would you seek to be discriminated against and treated with disrespect?

I am always shocked to hear otherwise rational people saying they would disown their child if they were gay, or that gay soldiers shouldn't be allowed in the forces (do people really think that they will be 'distracted' while fighting?!). Or that being gay is catching.

Ataman - I would agree that the situation may be a challenge within a family, but one which would have to be solved and accepted. I would be more worried by the reaction of others to a gay member of my family than I would about the actual fact that they were gay.

Perhaps it is easier for a mother to accept these things than a father - I don't know.

I would also agree that in countries where people would be less tolerant of these issues there should be more sensitivity shown with regards to content of marches etc. I would like to think that in return there was no violence or outright hate shown by general members of the public.

As you say, this is an issue about rights and inclusion in society.

Kate i agree with much of what you said except for the bible thumping part- I am orthodox, we have been around since 33 ad. We are old school and we are here to stay; got a problem with that?

I feel that Serbia needs to be a modern Orthodox Society and a functioning democracy. I feel that we should be guided by Jesus Christ who commanded us not to judge our neighbor. don't judge my religous belief and I should not judge anyone else

If we choose to repress homosexuals we can be neither Christians nor a democracy. We are left with hate and hypocrisy.
look at the celebrities and politicians we idolize who change spouses like shirts; no one says anything about adultery but we get all this moral indignation when it comes to homosexuality.

Is it because we feel that one of these things is fun while the other is gross?

I don't feel it is necessary to have a leader attend the gay pride events and that should be left exclusively up to the leader; why would the gay activists want a politician there that does not support inclusion; they wont change his mind by forcing his hand.

Instead I think that the leaders and opposition leaders should meet with Gay activist leaders just as they do with business leaders, union leaders, lobby groups etc and hear them out.

as for the nationalist belgrade regime, what a surprise (not).

every lgbt person who can live and survive over there deserves a special place in heaven, just on principle.

roberto
civilized frisco
(roberto, 3 May 2009 17:14)

Roberto - worth to read before commenting on horrors in Belgrade.

http://tinyurl.com/5u5maq
http://tinyurl.com/cpdtv9

I do not know, why is it "cool" to call the "Belgrade regime" names. You never miss the opportunity to do so and I don't see any justification of that because almost any government around is more "nationalist".

If you refer to the certain "gentleman" who refused to provide Sava Center to the straight-gay alliance and used completely wrong wording in public - there you are right. But as far as I recall, he is being "fried" in the court right now.

To Kate: yes, it would be probably a difficult ordeal and a big challenge for everybody's family. Luckily, I have no close encounter (wood, wood) with such cases. I wish to all here to stay uninvolved. I wish to organizers of the parades to be more sensitive regarding what should be displayed and also the timing. Such event should be a victory (no matter, how small) of tolerance, and not like in BP list year an other nazi victory.

marko I think thats a fair comment, but the reason I believe a political leader should be at the event is because the police will then be forced to protect the parade from the usual bunch.

And you know who the usual bunch are and what they believe they are defending - and they are not without support from those higher up the food chain.

Thats the danger, unless somebody within clergy steps up (for want of a better term) the church will eventually become marginalised in Serbian society. They don't have to adopt modern faddish methods we see with some religions with their modernisation.

As you suggest within Christianity, if it is properly applied, the solultion is already there. Hatred is not to be tolerated, nor physically attacking fellow man, nor is turning the other way and pretending that those doing the attacking are defending 'orthodox values'.

i've met people from pretty much all countries of the west balkans and homophobia seems to be widespread everywhere. the news from the region speaks the same story. you can always count on a certain someone "from frisco" to single out serbia and serbian "nationalist regime" whenever possible, though. i mean, some other governments in the region are more nationalist than the serbian government. and in the context of what has been said about the sensitivity of the way gay people will try to make themselves more visible and accepted (i agree with that), we can also ask a question about how to combat nationalism which is indeed a far bigger problem in most countries in the region. politically i do not think present serbian government can be described as nationalist, but serbian society is (like most, probably all others in the region). serbian government has to operate in such environment and in addition has to deal with double standards of the west (which are there for geo-political reasons).

certainly westernes who are simply preaching morals all the way "from frisco" are not going to be helpful. you need an honest dialogue. you need to acknowledge legitimate concerns of the people you are talking to and think about the way to move forward. kudos to those who are doing just that.

The quality of democracy and civilisation can be judged by how well that country treats it’s minorities. In recent years Belgrade Pride has been attacked by neo fascists and bully boys whilst police seemed unable or unwilling to intervene and protect the peaceful marchers. We even saw young males attack female marchers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppXVAocEHSk

I know that all civilised people, including the vast majority of serbs will be horrified to be seen to be part of this. This is why we need to take a stand

This is one of the reasons why I guess the gay straight alliance wants senior politicians to become involved in the day. They offer a protection of sorts. But, to me, what is much more important is that they provide an example of acceptance, inclusion and tolerance. There is no shame in being gay or lesbian. If politicians, civic leaders and even religious leaders can say such a thing, then Serbia will be able to carry on it’s journey away from the dark days of the past. I wish them the best of luck.

Peace and respect to all.
GRUK