Govt. in two minds over NATO exercises

Serbia must decide...
I will take order from..Moscow or Brussels or Washington ..
(luigi, 22 April 2009 10:48)
--
Serbia needs to take orders from Belgrade and not from Moscow, Brussels or Washington.

This government is a disgrace to even suggest involvement in NATO exercises.

I think this government should be ashamed of itself if it allows our soldiers to have exercises with NATO. NATO has been nothing but destructive towards our nation and pople so this type of cooperation is not fair to Russia and goes against everything we are fighting for. If we go ahead with this we are no better then Djukanovic and his betrayal of the Serbian people by recognizing the maffia government in Pristina. We considered that a betrayal and we are now doing the same to our brothers and sisters in Russian.

Mr Tadic,

Its a no brainer. Dont do it. Dont piss the Russians off.

It's quite clear really.
If Serbia has any self respect, it should have nothing to do with NATO exercises in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter.

I fail to understand why this issue keeps coming up and who is at the back of it.

Serbia doesn't need this organisation - it's not in any way a prerequisite for EU membership.

My country is actually in the North Atlantic and is not in NATO but is in the EU.

If Serbia decides to hang out with this organisation and so sell her own soul, I won't be going there anymore.
I will move my services to Russia.

MB,Ireland

What about Serbia? Is it going to join this club of "smart" countries?
Marco

What is so smart about joining NATO and sending your children to fight so that american boys can stay home and play Nintendo? And coming home in a body bag or without limbs? And having your territory controlled by others. And being told what to do in your own country. Having your territory used for missilestorage. If it's a smart thing to join then I hope we are not that smart.

My advice: Please don't do that!
If Russia gets mad at you, then you are done!

@ Mr. Tadic, Degree in Psychology

If a girl, humiliated, mistreated, molested, badly beaten for prolonged time by her boyfriend, and with visible injuries all over her body, came to you for professional consultation, would you suggest her to marry such man?
If you would, you should be barred from your Psychology practicing.
Serbian politicians, flirting with NATO do qualify for leading Serbia as much as the above Psychologist for his practice.

Nothing new here!
All this ICJ and "we will never recognize Kosovo" rhetoric is just posturing for domestic votes- nothing else.

sebastian, spread your western propaganda somewhere else.

"only" russian acknowledgment would be more than enough for europes 2 youngest states.

it's the new new world order&eusa can't do anything about it.

of course serbia won't work with the shorttime-occupiers of kosovo, this is fixed with the neutrality doctrine.

now it's about the political followups for those that OK-ed it(sutanovac).

i also don't like the terminus "nato", germany&france stayed off this silly provocation, it's just uk and usa plus usual suspects(azerbaijan,etc).

so the isolated occupiers of parts of kosovo got isolated again.

only 2 things are sure: this time us+uk will crawl faster back to russias on their knees then after liberation of s-ossetia and abkhazia

Russians appreciate the faith more than NATO. It will be probably not much harm to participate because besides NATO countries Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan also does participate (Kazakhstan is considered Russia's ally) and the entire event is relatively low-profile.

But I see much more beneficial NOT to participate for two reasons:

1) NATO is not necessarily the most Serbian-friendly organization. In this set-up, it must be NATO who is begging Serbia for any little favor, not the other way. And sometimes it has to be made clear, that "bride" needs more courting. A negative approach to NATO ("we don't like you because you still did not do enough") is more useful than the positive simply because THEY want Serbia to join badly, not the other way - and they will have an incentive to produce more carrots. Saying "NO" will mean: "your carrots aren't sweet enough and we need more".

2) As said, Russia will appreciate it. It needs allies it can rely on more, than NATO - so their appreciation for non-participation should be bigger, than NATO's appreciation for participating. At the same time we should not forget, diplomacy is diplomacy - so Serbia should ask for favors. Loans, more active role inside Kosovo, in particular, Russian decisions regarding participation in Kosovo should be not one-sided. A strong military contingent in spirit of 1244 is necessary.

That means saying "NO" will certainly generate a useful response from NATO (more carrots) and is a very good base to ask Russia for same.

Saying "YES" will signal to NATO that the carrots are sweet enough and no need for more and will signal to Russia, Serbia does not value it's interests (bad idea).

The only concern is to maintain a good relationship with Georgia. Georgia did not recognize Kosovo and most likely never will (Ossetia, Abkhasia). But here Serbia can give a free sweet carrot to Georgia: abolish the visas and ask Georgians to do the same. Much more useful and more friendly gesture towards Georgia than sending two people to this exercise which essentially is a zero benefit for Georgia.

I feel sorry only for these two experts because it's a wonderful place to stay. I would be pretty frustrated if my stay in Georgia would be sacrificed like that, but politics is politics.

Serbia must decide...
I will take order from..Moscow or Brussels or Washington ..
The project Kucma will not and is not functioning..
So Serbs you must be bold and decide in which camp you want to play the match...

Michael I know why Ireland is not a NATO member , cos in case of trouble you'll get someone else to do the dirty job. Another country like this is Switzerland which is the most selfish nation on the planet earth.What about Serbia? Is it going to join this club of "smart" countries?

Marco your comment is anti-Irish and I wonder how you got away with having your comment published. Lets keep racism out of our discussions

MB Ireland
thanks for your support,
you are 100% right!
God bless you.

"Earlier, arms exports to that country were suspended at a time when she was intensively preparing for war with Russia."

The "analyst" is stating that Georgia was buying arms n order to attack Russia. Nonsense. The Georgian army entered its own territory and engaged with paramilitary south ossetian units. Russia then attacked Georgian troops and Russia and Belarus (but nobody else) has recognised south ossetia as an independent state. it sounds like some Serbs participating a PfP exercise in Georgia together with NATO allies might lead to some "enlightenment" in Serbia as to what really happened in Georgia in 2008. Or perhaps not.

Why don't they move the exercises to a politically and militarily neutral state, like Azerbaijan or something as a compromise?

Problem solved.

BTW Sebastian, only Russia and Nicaragua have recognized those villages in the north of Georgia, not even Belarus has done so (and I doubt anyone else will, not even Belarus).

And luigi, do you really think that Serbia needs to choose between Russia and NATO? I think it would be ideal if the idea of PfP would be taken more seriously, as a common friendship between the two.

Alban

Russia is not going to attack Europe. You think after losing over 20 million people in the last war, they want another world war?

And no, Serbia probably cannot decide an alternative to these exercises, but the US should have the wisdom to decide on something more neutral than Saakashvili.

"Why don't they move the exercises to a politically and militarily neutral state, like Azerbaijan or something as a compromise? "

And who the hell is Serbia, with it's 2 (two!!!) people to suggest anything? NATO is to stop the Russians from crossing the Carpathian Mountains into real Europe, Serbia has to choose.

@Peter
Yes maybe in the future there will be something else and i hope that EU mantain a common position..but for the moment there is Nato and with some mistakes have anyway worked well since the end of WWII...
Anyway the problem for Serbia is that their leadership till now has chosen for a policy of YES TO Russia yes to EU yes to USA and this can't work!!

Government has to respect the will of the people. Serbs, would never do anything to harm our Russians brothers.

Georgian Army attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, so Russia had to respond accordingly…

NATO-led war games in Georgia, right at Russian door steps, are hostile gesture towards Russia and Russians are understandably outraged.

Serb Government must categorically reject this aggressive NATO policy and refuse to be part of it in any way.

Nothing is as it appears. Do you really believe Russia will not benefit from this.

"Earlier, arms exports to that country were suspended at a time when she was intensively preparing for war with Russia."

The "analyst" is stating that Georgia was buying arms n order to attack Russia. Nonsense. The Georgian army entered its own territory and engaged with paramilitary south ossetian units. Russia then attacked Georgian troops and Russia and Belarus (but nobody else) has recognised south ossetia as an independent state. it sounds like some Serbs participating a PfP exercise in Georgia together with NATO allies might lead to some "enlightenment" in Serbia as to what really happened in Georgia in 2008. Or perhaps not.

Serbia must decide...
I will take order from..Moscow or Brussels or Washington ..
The project Kucma will not and is not functioning..
So Serbs you must be bold and decide in which camp you want to play the match...

Michael I know why Ireland is not a NATO member , cos in case of trouble you'll get someone else to do the dirty job. Another country like this is Switzerland which is the most selfish nation on the planet earth.What about Serbia? Is it going to join this club of "smart" countries?

"Why don't they move the exercises to a politically and militarily neutral state, like Azerbaijan or something as a compromise? "

And who the hell is Serbia, with it's 2 (two!!!) people to suggest anything? NATO is to stop the Russians from crossing the Carpathian Mountains into real Europe, Serbia has to choose.

It's quite clear really.
If Serbia has any self respect, it should have nothing to do with NATO exercises in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter.

I fail to understand why this issue keeps coming up and who is at the back of it.

Serbia doesn't need this organisation - it's not in any way a prerequisite for EU membership.

My country is actually in the North Atlantic and is not in NATO but is in the EU.

If Serbia decides to hang out with this organisation and so sell her own soul, I won't be going there anymore.
I will move my services to Russia.

MB,Ireland

My advice: Please don't do that!
If Russia gets mad at you, then you are done!

I think this government should be ashamed of itself if it allows our soldiers to have exercises with NATO. NATO has been nothing but destructive towards our nation and pople so this type of cooperation is not fair to Russia and goes against everything we are fighting for. If we go ahead with this we are no better then Djukanovic and his betrayal of the Serbian people by recognizing the maffia government in Pristina. We considered that a betrayal and we are now doing the same to our brothers and sisters in Russian.

Serbia must decide...
I will take order from..Moscow or Brussels or Washington ..
(luigi, 22 April 2009 10:48)
--
Serbia needs to take orders from Belgrade and not from Moscow, Brussels or Washington.

This government is a disgrace to even suggest involvement in NATO exercises.

Nothing is as it appears. Do you really believe Russia will not benefit from this.

Mr Tadic,

Its a no brainer. Dont do it. Dont piss the Russians off.

Russians appreciate the faith more than NATO. It will be probably not much harm to participate because besides NATO countries Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan also does participate (Kazakhstan is considered Russia's ally) and the entire event is relatively low-profile.

But I see much more beneficial NOT to participate for two reasons:

1) NATO is not necessarily the most Serbian-friendly organization. In this set-up, it must be NATO who is begging Serbia for any little favor, not the other way. And sometimes it has to be made clear, that "bride" needs more courting. A negative approach to NATO ("we don't like you because you still did not do enough") is more useful than the positive simply because THEY want Serbia to join badly, not the other way - and they will have an incentive to produce more carrots. Saying "NO" will mean: "your carrots aren't sweet enough and we need more".

2) As said, Russia will appreciate it. It needs allies it can rely on more, than NATO - so their appreciation for non-participation should be bigger, than NATO's appreciation for participating. At the same time we should not forget, diplomacy is diplomacy - so Serbia should ask for favors. Loans, more active role inside Kosovo, in particular, Russian decisions regarding participation in Kosovo should be not one-sided. A strong military contingent in spirit of 1244 is necessary.

That means saying "NO" will certainly generate a useful response from NATO (more carrots) and is a very good base to ask Russia for same.

Saying "YES" will signal to NATO that the carrots are sweet enough and no need for more and will signal to Russia, Serbia does not value it's interests (bad idea).

The only concern is to maintain a good relationship with Georgia. Georgia did not recognize Kosovo and most likely never will (Ossetia, Abkhasia). But here Serbia can give a free sweet carrot to Georgia: abolish the visas and ask Georgians to do the same. Much more useful and more friendly gesture towards Georgia than sending two people to this exercise which essentially is a zero benefit for Georgia.

I feel sorry only for these two experts because it's a wonderful place to stay. I would be pretty frustrated if my stay in Georgia would be sacrificed like that, but politics is politics.

What about Serbia? Is it going to join this club of "smart" countries?
Marco

What is so smart about joining NATO and sending your children to fight so that american boys can stay home and play Nintendo? And coming home in a body bag or without limbs? And having your territory controlled by others. And being told what to do in your own country. Having your territory used for missilestorage. If it's a smart thing to join then I hope we are not that smart.

MB Ireland
thanks for your support,
you are 100% right!
God bless you.

Nothing new here!
All this ICJ and "we will never recognize Kosovo" rhetoric is just posturing for domestic votes- nothing else.

sebastian, spread your western propaganda somewhere else.

"only" russian acknowledgment would be more than enough for europes 2 youngest states.

it's the new new world order&eusa can't do anything about it.

of course serbia won't work with the shorttime-occupiers of kosovo, this is fixed with the neutrality doctrine.

now it's about the political followups for those that OK-ed it(sutanovac).

i also don't like the terminus "nato", germany&france stayed off this silly provocation, it's just uk and usa plus usual suspects(azerbaijan,etc).

so the isolated occupiers of parts of kosovo got isolated again.

only 2 things are sure: this time us+uk will crawl faster back to russias on their knees then after liberation of s-ossetia and abkhazia

@ Mr. Tadic, Degree in Psychology

If a girl, humiliated, mistreated, molested, badly beaten for prolonged time by her boyfriend, and with visible injuries all over her body, came to you for professional consultation, would you suggest her to marry such man?
If you would, you should be barred from your Psychology practicing.
Serbian politicians, flirting with NATO do qualify for leading Serbia as much as the above Psychologist for his practice.

Government has to respect the will of the people. Serbs, would never do anything to harm our Russians brothers.

Georgian Army attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, so Russia had to respond accordingly…

NATO-led war games in Georgia, right at Russian door steps, are hostile gesture towards Russia and Russians are understandably outraged.

Serb Government must categorically reject this aggressive NATO policy and refuse to be part of it in any way.

Why don't they move the exercises to a politically and militarily neutral state, like Azerbaijan or something as a compromise?

Problem solved.

BTW Sebastian, only Russia and Nicaragua have recognized those villages in the north of Georgia, not even Belarus has done so (and I doubt anyone else will, not even Belarus).

And luigi, do you really think that Serbia needs to choose between Russia and NATO? I think it would be ideal if the idea of PfP would be taken more seriously, as a common friendship between the two.

Marco your comment is anti-Irish and I wonder how you got away with having your comment published. Lets keep racism out of our discussions

@Peter
Yes maybe in the future there will be something else and i hope that EU mantain a common position..but for the moment there is Nato and with some mistakes have anyway worked well since the end of WWII...
Anyway the problem for Serbia is that their leadership till now has chosen for a policy of YES TO Russia yes to EU yes to USA and this can't work!!

Alban

Russia is not going to attack Europe. You think after losing over 20 million people in the last war, they want another world war?

And no, Serbia probably cannot decide an alternative to these exercises, but the US should have the wisdom to decide on something more neutral than Saakashvili.