Greece: Albanian cuts off wife's limbs

Dardan,
what propaganda lies. Just read the news like every normal person. There are psychos everywhere around the world, but this one happened to be Albanian and now suddenly its propaganda/lies. Go take a little break outside and vent your frustration.

Dardan - how can you think that this story is any type of propaganda? It just sounds like a terrible violent event.

You must have a very closed perception of life if everything boils down to a reflection on you and your own people.

Those poor kids - I hope that their Mum pulls through and they are okay.

Dragan,
I believe that this story is true.
I also believe that there were more than 10000 Albanians killed during the war by Serbs, I also believe that there were more than 200 000 Bosnians killed during the war . Do you believe that Dragan? or you too choose what to believe and what not.

Obviously it's easy to spread lies/propaganda.

Comment No. 3
"...psycho criminals do exist in all cultures therefore is not wise to portrait them wearing nationality fugures.."
Absolutelly agree with Uli. It's probably mentaly ill person. Prefix "Albanian" is irrelevant.
Now, Ritchie (comment No. 5)
I won't go again into Kosovo death-toll figures. I posted all the relevant links before. But at least when it comes to Bosnia, you should forget about propaganda of the 90's. After all it's been 14 years since the war ended and it's all known by now.
One of the most thourough studies conducted in Bosnia was by Sarajevo-based Research and Documentation Center, headed by Mirsad Tokaca (Bosnian Muslim, if you were wondering).

Here is the result of their findings as presented on BBC (not exactly a serb-loving media centre).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6228152.stm

"The Center said some 65% of those killed were Bosnian Muslims. "

"According to the research, 25% of the dead were Serbs and more than 8% Croats. "

Other studies dispute this percentage, although, they all came up to a roughly same number of around 100.000 deaths.

University of Oslo (Norway)have conducted it's own independent study.

Here is one interesting article in Norwegian newspapers.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/utenriks/4260912.html

I don't speak Norwegian, but some things are not hard to understand.

"102.000 drept i Bosnia" obviously refers to death-toll.

in part named "Sivile og militære"
there is a number of 102.622 "sivile og militære" with breakdown
"55.261 sivile" (civilians obvlously) and
"47.360 militære" (military obviously).

Breakdown continues, so civilian victims were
"muslimer og kroater til rundt 38.500, mens antall sivile serbere anslås til 16.700. "

38.500 "muslimer og kroater"

and

16.700 "sivile serbere"

When it comes to military loses

28.000 "bosniske muslimer"

"På serbisk side ble 14.000 soldater" (14.000 serbisk)

and

6.000 "bosnisk-kroatiske soldater".

Now, if you use basic math you will come to a Serbian death-toll in Bosnia to be at 30.700 (16.700 civilians + 14.000 soldiers). Presumably killed by Muslims or Croats.

That would still leave Serbs responsable for the deaths of roughly 72.000 people (102.622 - 30.700 = 71.922), right?

Wrong. As remaining 72.000 victims were not all killed by Serbs.
There was almost 3-years long Muslim-Croat war in Bosnia with estimated number of victims between 20.000-25.000 on both sides (total military and civilians).
And even Muslim-Muslim war (Fikret Abdic vs. Central government) with estimated number of victims around 2.000. Even Muslim-Muslim conflict wasn't lacking war crimes.
You can read about it in this article published in Bosnian magazine "Dani".
It's Sarajevo based, not Banja Luka based if you are interested. And it's written by Emir Suljagic, Bosnian Muslim.

http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani72.html

"...deaths of about 2,000 individuals. Namely, that is the estimated number of total casualties on both sides of the frontline between the Fifth Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia. The war between Bosniaks did not differ in its cruelty from other wars waged in Bosnia-Hercegovina. "

Back to math.
It becomes obvious that Bosnian Serb Army was responsable for less then 50% of deaths in any case. Even in Bosnia.
You would never guess looking at Hague Tribunal for example.
There, Serbs were so far sentenced to more then 4.000 years of prison, while there is 108 years for crimes commited against Serbs.
Ratio is 40:1.
Somehow, ratio of war crimes is very different.
Anyway, Ritchie.
Don't be now the one that chooses what to believe and what not.
Start with realising that most of what you are watching on media like CNN is just pure propaganda.

My POV -- this guy is sick, bigtime, and the act utterly evil. who would question that?

but here (US) some years ago, people who committed crimes, for example, were no longer referred to by their ethnicity, in the press. it may be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it isn't the identifier. so in the old days: "Black man shoots girlfriend..." now is, "man shoots girlfrnd...", and then description and details follow. this isn't just PC; after all, mainstream media here wouldn't announce, "white man kills g-frnd" and such -- there was just too much hypocrisy and racially (ethnic) tinged sensationalism in the past.

so here we have: "albanian cuts off women's limbs" which is horrible any way you see it. but in such a tense (and all too often irresponsible) atmosphere, such things matter, and "news" stories tell much more than just the news.

so we need to watch and examine our language, and the various (often unattractive) attitudes that it reflects.

kupish?

thanks.

roberto/frisco

Not true.. This is a fake story. Even if it was true, psycho criminals do exist in all cultures therefore is not wise to portrait them wearing nationality fugures.. B 92,, find some real news. Gambia did regognized Kosovo and i did not see a single article that say something about it.. Let real serbs know the truth. From a friendly albanian.

Why is it that when there is a news story that involves an Albanian doing something bad it is described as fake and propaganada and someone tries to spuriously link it to Kosovo?

Oh, stop already.

Most of these comments reflect why the concept of collective guilt is so dangerous.

News stories should tell the facts.
This is not about Bosnia, Kosovo or political correctness.

If it is a fact that the man is ethnically Albanian and he committed this heinous crime then it needs to be reported as just that.

Simply report the facts just as B92 has done.

Just as important … the accused is not a reflection, nor an example nor the poster child for anyone or any specific group. He is responsible for his own actions.

Collective guilt has no place in a civilized society.

Gotta love the exposure and the way the title is worded.

How about "Greece: Man cuts off wife's limbs".

Apparently whatever says something bad about Albanians deserves the front page...

Every society has few mentally sick. What affects 7-odd million Albanians seem to be very few only. This guy has sick and twisted mind, he happens to be an Albanian and will serve hopefully a long sentence. After that he will be the unluckiest soul: he won't be able to stay in Greece and will be rejected by his fellow Albanians because he hurt a woman badly - who happen be his wife. He won't be able to marry again either. The punishment will be as hard as the crime. No need to be over-protective.

Be happy, there is no double-standard for Albanians, so you are like the rest of us, not a "special case" for political reason where not even slightest hints regarding the ethnic background are allowed and the sentences + consequences seem to be lower than expected.

One Albanian I know from Belgrade swore to kill his daughter when she runaway from him and got married to a Montenegrian (because he previously tried to sell her to an elderly ethnic Albanian widower).
He still carries a gun after 15 years and his daughter can visit her mom only when he is on a trip.
How fanatic crazy is that, this guy lived most of his life in Belgrade!?!

ritchie,
Its very amusing what you are believing because it is a fact that around 100,000 ppl died in the Bosnian war which includes Serbs too, so get your facts straight then come here and comment. And please stay on topic, because war has nothing to do with the story abotu a phsycho mutilating his wife.

Is this propoganda too?

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=7499197&service=142

This article was posted under "region". This is news that falls under "regional news". Im not quite sure what hte problem is.

Some of you albanian posters really are hyporcrites. You claim that Kosovo is a fair and egalitarian state. However, if the average Albanian is as critical of news (that other websites have posted), then im not sure how you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say you are being fair and objective.

Sorry for the run-on sentence but I cant help it.

Ritchie, please mentions all the Serbs that were kicked out of Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Not to mention the thousands killed. Did these statisitcs slip your mind?

Serbia=country with most refugee's in Europe.

Disregard the real statisistics (which are usually low end because its the West who is counting).

"I also believe that there were more than 200 000 Bosnians killed during the war ."

Only 200,000 Ritchie? Why not a million? After all, it is only a number, though the ICTY in the Hague would beg to disagree and even the Bosnian missing persons project who put the figure at approximately 100,000 total for all sides.

Next, will we be told that all the bosnians killed were unarmed and women and children and that they had no army? Some people still don't understand the 'civil' part of a four sided (Abdic) 'civil war'...

The reason this article is titled "Greece: Albanian cuts of wife's limbs" is because the alleged perpetrator is an Albanian citizen and not a Greek one. If he was a Greek citizen of Albanian ethnicity then it would of less relevence.

If this had happened in the UK for example the nationality of the killer would have been high up there. In fact here is very a recent example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/slovakian-jailed-murder-glasgow

It is true that there are psychopaths in every population, however this is an exceptionally gruesome crime of a very specific nature. Domestic violence may end in murder, but I am not aware of anything similar ever happening in Greece or indeed in Europe. In that sense, cultural identity of the perpetrator is of interest to the readership and omitting to mention it would be not political correctness gone mad, but misinforming the readers.

Though sometimes the British press do get it wrong, as here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article46339.ece Scroll down to "Clarke must share blame". Croatian indeed!

I don’t think it’s of much relevancy if this man was Albanian, Serb, Greek or whatever nationality. The news is that a psycho committed this terrible crime. When he’ll be judged for this crime, he will not be judged based on his nationality, but based on the crime he committed.

See this link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL273413820070727

The title of the article is: “Serb police hunt gunman who killed 8”, not “Serbia: Serb gunman killed 8”.

I thought B92 was a professional and unbiased media source! Why is this news interesting? Just because the criminal is an Albanian?! This is disgusting. Such horrible crimes happen everywhere in the world and the criminals should get the deserved punishment, not like Austrian Fritzl, who has been sent to a comfortable prison although he had raped and horrified his own children for years.

I am a Kosovo Albanian and this is a terrible but irrelevant news. I will repeat myself and say that criminals should get the deserved punishment regardless of the nationality, race, religion.

But B92 should also be careful with such stories as they just encourage hate speech.

but here (US) some years ago, people who committed crimes, for example, were no longer referred to by their ethnicity

roberto/frisco
(roberto, 13 April 2009 06:23)

Roberto,

This is not USA, with all positive and negative consequences.
It takes a while to adopt even for people who once were locals, than went to USA and now are back (us).

It's just opposite - in every country, be it PL, HU, DE, AT, RS, AL (you name it) the ethnic background of criminal and the victim is widely reported and besides of DE and AT it usually does not steer any extra feelings.

In this little part of the world Albanians, Romanians, Poles, etc-etc-etc are not part of ethno-political "special case", neither is any "affirmative action" in question, they are considered "normal people" with all positive and negative consequences - with full rights inside the society and being fully accountable if they hurt the society.

Interestingly, a black American who happen to live in the area is widely considered a "white man" like the "rest of us". It is odd, but black Americans once they learn the language have much better chances to be inside of the society than in the States.

But: there is a special "non-report" ethnic background precisely like you describe. It is done out of the fear to steer ethno-political issues and also due somewhat like we would say "affirmative action".

#19 but that is my point. If the person is a citizen of the country they committed the crime in then a news article isn't going to point that out and will allow the reader to assume that. But if he is not a citizen of the country he committed the crime in then no one should be surprised that his citizenship is mentioned.

I was pointing out that the Albanian posters were being somewhat paranoid over what was normal journalist practice.

Wow, the Serbs are really interested in Albanian lives.

Look at these headlines from B92

Ha ha ha b92 why waste time reporting some stupid propaganda. How about Fatmir Sejdiu the president of Kosova getting the greatest monthly salary in the region, beating even the president of Romania who's in EU, this tells me that Kosovars will have the best income the region.

Obviously it's easy to spread lies/propaganda.

Not true.. This is a fake story. Even if it was true, psycho criminals do exist in all cultures therefore is not wise to portrait them wearing nationality fugures.. B 92,, find some real news. Gambia did regognized Kosovo and i did not see a single article that say something about it.. Let real serbs know the truth. From a friendly albanian.

Dragan,
I believe that this story is true.
I also believe that there were more than 10000 Albanians killed during the war by Serbs, I also believe that there were more than 200 000 Bosnians killed during the war . Do you believe that Dragan? or you too choose what to believe and what not.

One Albanian I know from Belgrade swore to kill his daughter when she runaway from him and got married to a Montenegrian (because he previously tried to sell her to an elderly ethnic Albanian widower).
He still carries a gun after 15 years and his daughter can visit her mom only when he is on a trip.
How fanatic crazy is that, this guy lived most of his life in Belgrade!?!

My POV -- this guy is sick, bigtime, and the act utterly evil. who would question that?

but here (US) some years ago, people who committed crimes, for example, were no longer referred to by their ethnicity, in the press. it may be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it isn't the identifier. so in the old days: "Black man shoots girlfriend..." now is, "man shoots girlfrnd...", and then description and details follow. this isn't just PC; after all, mainstream media here wouldn't announce, "white man kills g-frnd" and such -- there was just too much hypocrisy and racially (ethnic) tinged sensationalism in the past.

so here we have: "albanian cuts off women's limbs" which is horrible any way you see it. but in such a tense (and all too often irresponsible) atmosphere, such things matter, and "news" stories tell much more than just the news.

so we need to watch and examine our language, and the various (often unattractive) attitudes that it reflects.

kupish?

thanks.

roberto/frisco

Dardan - how can you think that this story is any type of propaganda? It just sounds like a terrible violent event.

You must have a very closed perception of life if everything boils down to a reflection on you and your own people.

Those poor kids - I hope that their Mum pulls through and they are okay.

Gotta love the exposure and the way the title is worded.

How about "Greece: Man cuts off wife's limbs".

Apparently whatever says something bad about Albanians deserves the front page...

Dardan,
what propaganda lies. Just read the news like every normal person. There are psychos everywhere around the world, but this one happened to be Albanian and now suddenly its propaganda/lies. Go take a little break outside and vent your frustration.

Why is it that when there is a news story that involves an Albanian doing something bad it is described as fake and propaganada and someone tries to spuriously link it to Kosovo?

"I also believe that there were more than 200 000 Bosnians killed during the war ."

Only 200,000 Ritchie? Why not a million? After all, it is only a number, though the ICTY in the Hague would beg to disagree and even the Bosnian missing persons project who put the figure at approximately 100,000 total for all sides.

Next, will we be told that all the bosnians killed were unarmed and women and children and that they had no army? Some people still don't understand the 'civil' part of a four sided (Abdic) 'civil war'...

Every society has few mentally sick. What affects 7-odd million Albanians seem to be very few only. This guy has sick and twisted mind, he happens to be an Albanian and will serve hopefully a long sentence. After that he will be the unluckiest soul: he won't be able to stay in Greece and will be rejected by his fellow Albanians because he hurt a woman badly - who happen be his wife. He won't be able to marry again either. The punishment will be as hard as the crime. No need to be over-protective.

Be happy, there is no double-standard for Albanians, so you are like the rest of us, not a "special case" for political reason where not even slightest hints regarding the ethnic background are allowed and the sentences + consequences seem to be lower than expected.

ritchie,
Its very amusing what you are believing because it is a fact that around 100,000 ppl died in the Bosnian war which includes Serbs too, so get your facts straight then come here and comment. And please stay on topic, because war has nothing to do with the story abotu a phsycho mutilating his wife.

Comment No. 3
"...psycho criminals do exist in all cultures therefore is not wise to portrait them wearing nationality fugures.."
Absolutelly agree with Uli. It's probably mentaly ill person. Prefix "Albanian" is irrelevant.
Now, Ritchie (comment No. 5)
I won't go again into Kosovo death-toll figures. I posted all the relevant links before. But at least when it comes to Bosnia, you should forget about propaganda of the 90's. After all it's been 14 years since the war ended and it's all known by now.
One of the most thourough studies conducted in Bosnia was by Sarajevo-based Research and Documentation Center, headed by Mirsad Tokaca (Bosnian Muslim, if you were wondering).

Here is the result of their findings as presented on BBC (not exactly a serb-loving media centre).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6228152.stm

"The Center said some 65% of those killed were Bosnian Muslims. "

"According to the research, 25% of the dead were Serbs and more than 8% Croats. "

Other studies dispute this percentage, although, they all came up to a roughly same number of around 100.000 deaths.

University of Oslo (Norway)have conducted it's own independent study.

Here is one interesting article in Norwegian newspapers.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/utenriks/4260912.html

I don't speak Norwegian, but some things are not hard to understand.

"102.000 drept i Bosnia" obviously refers to death-toll.

in part named "Sivile og militære"
there is a number of 102.622 "sivile og militære" with breakdown
"55.261 sivile" (civilians obvlously) and
"47.360 militære" (military obviously).

Breakdown continues, so civilian victims were
"muslimer og kroater til rundt 38.500, mens antall sivile serbere anslås til 16.700. "

38.500 "muslimer og kroater"

and

16.700 "sivile serbere"

When it comes to military loses

28.000 "bosniske muslimer"

"På serbisk side ble 14.000 soldater" (14.000 serbisk)

and

6.000 "bosnisk-kroatiske soldater".

Now, if you use basic math you will come to a Serbian death-toll in Bosnia to be at 30.700 (16.700 civilians + 14.000 soldiers). Presumably killed by Muslims or Croats.

That would still leave Serbs responsable for the deaths of roughly 72.000 people (102.622 - 30.700 = 71.922), right?

Wrong. As remaining 72.000 victims were not all killed by Serbs.
There was almost 3-years long Muslim-Croat war in Bosnia with estimated number of victims between 20.000-25.000 on both sides (total military and civilians).
And even Muslim-Muslim war (Fikret Abdic vs. Central government) with estimated number of victims around 2.000. Even Muslim-Muslim conflict wasn't lacking war crimes.
You can read about it in this article published in Bosnian magazine "Dani".
It's Sarajevo based, not Banja Luka based if you are interested. And it's written by Emir Suljagic, Bosnian Muslim.

http://www.ex-yupress.com/dani/dani72.html

"...deaths of about 2,000 individuals. Namely, that is the estimated number of total casualties on both sides of the frontline between the Fifth Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina and the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia. The war between Bosniaks did not differ in its cruelty from other wars waged in Bosnia-Hercegovina. "

Back to math.
It becomes obvious that Bosnian Serb Army was responsable for less then 50% of deaths in any case. Even in Bosnia.
You would never guess looking at Hague Tribunal for example.
There, Serbs were so far sentenced to more then 4.000 years of prison, while there is 108 years for crimes commited against Serbs.
Ratio is 40:1.
Somehow, ratio of war crimes is very different.
Anyway, Ritchie.
Don't be now the one that chooses what to believe and what not.
Start with realising that most of what you are watching on media like CNN is just pure propaganda.

I thought B92 was a professional and unbiased media source! Why is this news interesting? Just because the criminal is an Albanian?! This is disgusting. Such horrible crimes happen everywhere in the world and the criminals should get the deserved punishment, not like Austrian Fritzl, who has been sent to a comfortable prison although he had raped and horrified his own children for years.

I am a Kosovo Albanian and this is a terrible but irrelevant news. I will repeat myself and say that criminals should get the deserved punishment regardless of the nationality, race, religion.

But B92 should also be careful with such stories as they just encourage hate speech.

Is this propoganda too?

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=7499197&service=142

This article was posted under "region". This is news that falls under "regional news". Im not quite sure what hte problem is.

Some of you albanian posters really are hyporcrites. You claim that Kosovo is a fair and egalitarian state. However, if the average Albanian is as critical of news (that other websites have posted), then im not sure how you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say you are being fair and objective.

Sorry for the run-on sentence but I cant help it.

Ritchie, please mentions all the Serbs that were kicked out of Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Not to mention the thousands killed. Did these statisitcs slip your mind?

Serbia=country with most refugee's in Europe.

Disregard the real statisistics (which are usually low end because its the West who is counting).

The reason this article is titled "Greece: Albanian cuts of wife's limbs" is because the alleged perpetrator is an Albanian citizen and not a Greek one. If he was a Greek citizen of Albanian ethnicity then it would of less relevence.

If this had happened in the UK for example the nationality of the killer would have been high up there. In fact here is very a recent example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/slovakian-jailed-murder-glasgow

but here (US) some years ago, people who committed crimes, for example, were no longer referred to by their ethnicity

roberto/frisco
(roberto, 13 April 2009 06:23)

Roberto,

This is not USA, with all positive and negative consequences.
It takes a while to adopt even for people who once were locals, than went to USA and now are back (us).

It's just opposite - in every country, be it PL, HU, DE, AT, RS, AL (you name it) the ethnic background of criminal and the victim is widely reported and besides of DE and AT it usually does not steer any extra feelings.

In this little part of the world Albanians, Romanians, Poles, etc-etc-etc are not part of ethno-political "special case", neither is any "affirmative action" in question, they are considered "normal people" with all positive and negative consequences - with full rights inside the society and being fully accountable if they hurt the society.

Interestingly, a black American who happen to live in the area is widely considered a "white man" like the "rest of us". It is odd, but black Americans once they learn the language have much better chances to be inside of the society than in the States.

But: there is a special "non-report" ethnic background precisely like you describe. It is done out of the fear to steer ethno-political issues and also due somewhat like we would say "affirmative action".

Oh, stop already.

Most of these comments reflect why the concept of collective guilt is so dangerous.

News stories should tell the facts.
This is not about Bosnia, Kosovo or political correctness.

If it is a fact that the man is ethnically Albanian and he committed this heinous crime then it needs to be reported as just that.

Simply report the facts just as B92 has done.

Just as important … the accused is not a reflection, nor an example nor the poster child for anyone or any specific group. He is responsible for his own actions.

Collective guilt has no place in a civilized society.

Though sometimes the British press do get it wrong, as here http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article46339.ece Scroll down to "Clarke must share blame". Croatian indeed!

I don’t think it’s of much relevancy if this man was Albanian, Serb, Greek or whatever nationality. The news is that a psycho committed this terrible crime. When he’ll be judged for this crime, he will not be judged based on his nationality, but based on the crime he committed.

See this link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL273413820070727

The title of the article is: “Serb police hunt gunman who killed 8”, not “Serbia: Serb gunman killed 8”.

It is true that there are psychopaths in every population, however this is an exceptionally gruesome crime of a very specific nature. Domestic violence may end in murder, but I am not aware of anything similar ever happening in Greece or indeed in Europe. In that sense, cultural identity of the perpetrator is of interest to the readership and omitting to mention it would be not political correctness gone mad, but misinforming the readers.

#19 but that is my point. If the person is a citizen of the country they committed the crime in then a news article isn't going to point that out and will allow the reader to assume that. But if he is not a citizen of the country he committed the crime in then no one should be surprised that his citizenship is mentioned.

I was pointing out that the Albanian posters were being somewhat paranoid over what was normal journalist practice.

Wow, the Serbs are really interested in Albanian lives.

Look at these headlines from B92

Ha ha ha b92 why waste time reporting some stupid propaganda. How about Fatmir Sejdiu the president of Kosova getting the greatest monthly salary in the region, beating even the president of Romania who's in EU, this tells me that Kosovars will have the best income the region.