Lavrov: Romanian flags used to undermine Moldova sovereignty

Up to now, because of the soviet past, the administration of republic of Moldova was mostly run by russians and ukrainians or mixed
(adrian/bucharest, 9 April 2009 16:56)

It was/is run by mafia, basically. You can name them "Russians", "Ukrainians" or "Zulu" if you like - but besides their mother tongue they had/have absolutely no affinity to Russia or Ukraina. Their vested interest was to show both Ukraina and Russia the middle finger - what they did many times.

Of course, both Russia and Ukraina were and still are run by mafia, too.

And I will have trouble to name any "clean" Romanian or Hungarian politician.

This is why I am saying, Serbia has the cleanest and best people in the office compared with Russia, Ukraina, Hungary, Romania, etc. This is not a compliment, just merely "in kingdom of blind the one-eyed is the king".

Georgia has a special place: it cannot be measured even by Kosovo-"standard".

The land on the east side should revert back to Ukraine and the land ot the west side should merge with Romania.Problem solved.

I have always thought high of Lavrov's capabilities as a diplomat, but this time ...
Doesn't he know how the flags of Romania and Republic of Moldova look like, the only difference being the symbol on the centre for Moldova.
Here is the picture of the president Voronin officialy voting and placing the ballot on a voting poll bearing the romanian flag and not the official flag of Republic of Moldova.
http://www.moldova-suverana.md/index.php?start_from=&ucat=7&subaction=showcomments&id=1239016303&archive=1239107701&

Very good link, Adrian, thanks.
And indeed, the tone of the article does prove: there is not much sympathy in Russia towards Воронин.

May that "Ворона" (crow) fly far-far away with all communist baggage. But than no need to fingerpoint at Moscow either. This is not some kind of Russian-Romanian conflict.

Where Moscow is guilty: the response from Moscow was not clear, clumsy and they missed some good chances. Where Romanians are guilty: jumping the gun with anti-Russian stereotypes.

Lavrov leave your little eastern country out of this! This problem is for the West (EU,NATO).

The Russian are always the same..Nothing seems have changed..Always there are "foreign agents"..always the "western countries"...always "America's interests"...
poor moldova...what a bleak destiny...

Moldova is no longer Russia's business, and should feel no fear in joining Romania if it so pleases. After all, everyone knows that the question of Moldova's "sovereignty" would not be asked, were it not for Molotov-Ribentropp.

Ataman
"Where Moscow is guilty: the response from Moscow was not clear, clumsy and they missed some good chances. Where Romanians are guilty: jumping the gun with anti-Russian stereotypes."

Agree, still this jumping on the gun would have never happened and there would have been also russian flags in the crowds in Chisinau, if only Kremlin just a couple of days before the elections and immediately after would have not supported Voronin.
Just a couple of days before the elections Voronin was meeting with Medvedev and Smirnov in a useless "transnistrian issue" debate and a later meeting with patriarch Kiril. Remember, Voronin was the one to say Jesus Christ was the first ever communist. Everybody knew, including the russian media, it was put up only to back Voronin in the electoral campaign. In return he practically legalised the presence of russian troops in Transnistria.
Voronin got also 50.000 tons of fuel for free and Smirnov got 200 mil USD from Russia. And people in Russia complain about crisis?!
In real life, not comments on internet, the vast majority of romanians (of course there are the regular nutheads too) has nothing against Russians as people or nation, quite the very contrary, but most of romanians have no sympathy or even hate Russia as a system and operating procedures.

but most of romanians have no sympathy or even hate Russia as a system and operating procedures.
(adrian/bucharest, 10 April 2009 07:42)

They should say merely:
"Kremlin is full of crooks". Much simpler wording, and nothing anti-Russian in that. While this time (unrelated reasons) you won't have the majority of Russians or Serbs to back your opinion, there will be a very significant number who does agree.

The entire Central/East Europe is still essentially a "communist" system where the communists simply lost their inhibition and steal/pillage their countries almost at will. Oddly, Belarus is probably the least affected and probably only because the "West" had no opportunity there yet to "cooperate" with "former"(?) communists.

You also need to understand, why are Russians so over-protective at first sight. The expectation was that transformation from the dictatorship + idiotic policies + paternalistic state to a "better world" will be relatively smooth.

Instead what happened was a break-up of the country, one economic disaster after an other and for many losing more than what they gained. The people became very disappointed with democratic values and it is a major tragedy. Now there are significant voices demanding "strong hand" and "Russian Empire" at it's worst.

"West" did present itself from it's worst side sending crooks, adventurers, charlatans as "messengers" and "ambassadors". It also did NOT open itself, but demanded the other side to open. It also loved to pose as a "winner" of the cold war (truth: with China's raise the "West" is the LOSER of the cold war, China won it)

The communists in USSR/Russia/Eastern Block (you name it - here I mean everyone China included) "successfully" transferred themself into new role as "businessmen".

All this is a huge tragedy long-term, too: while LOSING the "Cold War" to China pathetically, the "West" successfully killed the industries in the rest of the "East Block" (shooting itself in the foot twice: alienating Russians and killing of the industrial potential it may need later to compete with China)

That is Moldavian flag:

http://tinyurl.com/caccet

These are few versions of Romanian flag:

http://tinyurl.com/dal6qd
http://tinyurl.com/codj5g
http://tinyurl.com/dgsr32

Notice the last, with red star, etc.

This is the revolutionary Romanian flag with the hole, without the hated Ceausescu symbolic:

http://tinyurl.com/cxmpux

"Flag with the hole = uprising" was "patented" in Hungary during 1956:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Hungary

I am sure, there were lot of Romanians there. The situation was unique because Romanian and Moldovan flag of uprising is technically the same. Probably most who did display the "flag with hole" were secretly thinking about Romania - but no one can judge about "thinking in secret".

Factually these were Moldovan flags of uprising and what is the secret background is no more than a rumor. Of course we know the rumor being true - but no one can criticize others merely based on rumors even if believed to be true.

Because of the coincidence (identical flags) Lavrov was in very difficult position to say anything. Since he is a professional diplomat, the best solution in such case is to remain a professional diplomat, do not jump the gun and do not say anything.

Otherwise here the interest of everyone I just can think of is surprisingly the same: the conflict including the communists of Voronin going away as quick as possible. I am not sure, who could be their allies if any. They had strong conflict with Moscow not so long ago.

I have always thought high of Lavrov's capabilities as a diplomat, but this time ...
(adrian/bucharest, 9 April 2009 14:51)

Lavrov had to say what Putin does mean. I understand Putin's frustration because he was about to close the Transdnistria story - and here some disturbance. But Putin is known to be a good chess player, he should not jump the gun so soon. We all know, Voronin is not Moscow's friend (mildly speaking!), what probably Putin is afraid, that others could be less easy to deal with (regarding Transdnistria).

The rest of Moldova is uninteresting of course as long as the rights of minorities (minorities? Ukrainians and Russians are the majority in some areas) are not violated.

Ataman thanks for the flags!
Up to now, because of the soviet past, the administration of republic of Moldova was mostly run by russians and ukrainians or mixed and nobody said anything about their heritage. In Transnistria on the other hand, romanians study romanian/"moldovan" language in chirilic alphabet !!?? in only one surviving highschool.

The Russians should stop interfering in Moldova. The communists should be removed from power! Moldova should develop closer relations with Romania and the EU.

Ataman,

Transylvania has been inhabited by Romanians from the oldest times. The Hungarian presence on the present day territory of Romania dates from the 8th-9th centuries.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day in Chisinau:
there will be 2 demonstrations: one of communists and one of opposition parties.
I hope we won't see any more street fighting, provocations and arrests. Unfortunatelly (for everyone), Mr. Voronin has just started arresting Romanian patriots. Wrong choise, Mr. Voronin! Beat them as long as you can, your rule is over.

Mr. Communist imposed a harsh censorship to local mass-media... The opposition parties are blamed for everything now. Mr. Voronin talked about democracy and free elections but people are arrested for saying "we are Romanians". Where is the freedom of speech?

The one who should be jailed is you, Mr. Voronin. I'm sure that justice will be done.

EU is sleeping... It was easier for them to support that Georgian knight of fortune (Saakashvili).

Freedom for Romanian patriots!

some food for thought for Mr Lavrov
http://www.regnum.ru/news/1148256.html

Ataman
http://barabanch.livejournal.com/661372.html
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1152959

Adrian,

Thanks for the links. Does not look good of course. But little details:

"Между тем Россия оказывает Молдавии не только моральную поддержку. Высокопоставленный источник "Ъ" в международном аэропорту Кишинева сообщил, что рано утром в среду сюда из подмосковного Раменского прилетел Ил-76 с "опасным грузом на борту". "За час под усиленной охраной из самолета были выгружены ящики с газовыми гранатами "Черемуха" и другими спецсредствами. В 7.14 утра борт улетел обратно",— рассказал собеседник "Ъ". "

Please note, there is no airport as far as I know in "Раменское". The closest is in Жуковский - which does belong to ЦАГИ, it's basically a military airbase. Раменское and Жуковский are not far from each other, not sure it would be even safe to have a THIRD airport there.

I say THIRD, because the FIRST one is in Быково, that is 100% civilian.

By the way - I used to live in Быково for good 10 years and I was born in Жуковский.

Hence now I really do not know who is saying what. Of course, Коммерсантъ is a serious media, but why they doing such a lousy job of details being incorrect?

There is an airport called "ramenskoe.aero" - but it's precisely the same as the airport belonging to TSAGI and it is NOT, NOT, and NOT in "Раменское"! See the map - Ramenskoe is not even on the map, it should be quite a few more km away.

http://www.ramenskoe.aero/about/map/proezd.PNG

I am still not impressed with the media an it just adds more questions without answering any.

Lavrov leave your little eastern country out of this! This problem is for the West (EU,NATO).

The Russian are always the same..Nothing seems have changed..Always there are "foreign agents"..always the "western countries"...always "America's interests"...
poor moldova...what a bleak destiny...

Moldova is no longer Russia's business, and should feel no fear in joining Romania if it so pleases. After all, everyone knows that the question of Moldova's "sovereignty" would not be asked, were it not for Molotov-Ribentropp.

I have always thought high of Lavrov's capabilities as a diplomat, but this time ...
Doesn't he know how the flags of Romania and Republic of Moldova look like, the only difference being the symbol on the centre for Moldova.
Here is the picture of the president Voronin officialy voting and placing the ballot on a voting poll bearing the romanian flag and not the official flag of Republic of Moldova.
http://www.moldova-suverana.md/index.php?start_from=&ucat=7&subaction=showcomments&id=1239016303&archive=1239107701&

The Russians should stop interfering in Moldova. The communists should be removed from power! Moldova should develop closer relations with Romania and the EU.

Ataman,

Transylvania has been inhabited by Romanians from the oldest times. The Hungarian presence on the present day territory of Romania dates from the 8th-9th centuries.

The land on the east side should revert back to Ukraine and the land ot the west side should merge with Romania.Problem solved.

That is Moldavian flag:

http://tinyurl.com/caccet

These are few versions of Romanian flag:

http://tinyurl.com/dal6qd
http://tinyurl.com/codj5g
http://tinyurl.com/dgsr32

Notice the last, with red star, etc.

This is the revolutionary Romanian flag with the hole, without the hated Ceausescu symbolic:

http://tinyurl.com/cxmpux

"Flag with the hole = uprising" was "patented" in Hungary during 1956:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Hungary

I am sure, there were lot of Romanians there. The situation was unique because Romanian and Moldovan flag of uprising is technically the same. Probably most who did display the "flag with hole" were secretly thinking about Romania - but no one can judge about "thinking in secret".

Factually these were Moldovan flags of uprising and what is the secret background is no more than a rumor. Of course we know the rumor being true - but no one can criticize others merely based on rumors even if believed to be true.

Because of the coincidence (identical flags) Lavrov was in very difficult position to say anything. Since he is a professional diplomat, the best solution in such case is to remain a professional diplomat, do not jump the gun and do not say anything.

Otherwise here the interest of everyone I just can think of is surprisingly the same: the conflict including the communists of Voronin going away as quick as possible. I am not sure, who could be their allies if any. They had strong conflict with Moscow not so long ago.

I have always thought high of Lavrov's capabilities as a diplomat, but this time ...
(adrian/bucharest, 9 April 2009 14:51)

Lavrov had to say what Putin does mean. I understand Putin's frustration because he was about to close the Transdnistria story - and here some disturbance. But Putin is known to be a good chess player, he should not jump the gun so soon. We all know, Voronin is not Moscow's friend (mildly speaking!), what probably Putin is afraid, that others could be less easy to deal with (regarding Transdnistria).

The rest of Moldova is uninteresting of course as long as the rights of minorities (minorities? Ukrainians and Russians are the majority in some areas) are not violated.

Ataman thanks for the flags!
Up to now, because of the soviet past, the administration of republic of Moldova was mostly run by russians and ukrainians or mixed and nobody said anything about their heritage. In Transnistria on the other hand, romanians study romanian/"moldovan" language in chirilic alphabet !!?? in only one surviving highschool.

Up to now, because of the soviet past, the administration of republic of Moldova was mostly run by russians and ukrainians or mixed
(adrian/bucharest, 9 April 2009 16:56)

It was/is run by mafia, basically. You can name them "Russians", "Ukrainians" or "Zulu" if you like - but besides their mother tongue they had/have absolutely no affinity to Russia or Ukraina. Their vested interest was to show both Ukraina and Russia the middle finger - what they did many times.

Of course, both Russia and Ukraina were and still are run by mafia, too.

And I will have trouble to name any "clean" Romanian or Hungarian politician.

This is why I am saying, Serbia has the cleanest and best people in the office compared with Russia, Ukraina, Hungary, Romania, etc. This is not a compliment, just merely "in kingdom of blind the one-eyed is the king".

Georgia has a special place: it cannot be measured even by Kosovo-"standard".

Tomorrow will be an interesting day in Chisinau:
there will be 2 demonstrations: one of communists and one of opposition parties.
I hope we won't see any more street fighting, provocations and arrests. Unfortunatelly (for everyone), Mr. Voronin has just started arresting Romanian patriots. Wrong choise, Mr. Voronin! Beat them as long as you can, your rule is over.

Mr. Communist imposed a harsh censorship to local mass-media... The opposition parties are blamed for everything now. Mr. Voronin talked about democracy and free elections but people are arrested for saying "we are Romanians". Where is the freedom of speech?

The one who should be jailed is you, Mr. Voronin. I'm sure that justice will be done.

EU is sleeping... It was easier for them to support that Georgian knight of fortune (Saakashvili).

Freedom for Romanian patriots!

some food for thought for Mr Lavrov
http://www.regnum.ru/news/1148256.html

Very good link, Adrian, thanks.
And indeed, the tone of the article does prove: there is not much sympathy in Russia towards Воронин.

May that "Ворона" (crow) fly far-far away with all communist baggage. But than no need to fingerpoint at Moscow either. This is not some kind of Russian-Romanian conflict.

Where Moscow is guilty: the response from Moscow was not clear, clumsy and they missed some good chances. Where Romanians are guilty: jumping the gun with anti-Russian stereotypes.

Ataman
"Where Moscow is guilty: the response from Moscow was not clear, clumsy and they missed some good chances. Where Romanians are guilty: jumping the gun with anti-Russian stereotypes."

Agree, still this jumping on the gun would have never happened and there would have been also russian flags in the crowds in Chisinau, if only Kremlin just a couple of days before the elections and immediately after would have not supported Voronin.
Just a couple of days before the elections Voronin was meeting with Medvedev and Smirnov in a useless "transnistrian issue" debate and a later meeting with patriarch Kiril. Remember, Voronin was the one to say Jesus Christ was the first ever communist. Everybody knew, including the russian media, it was put up only to back Voronin in the electoral campaign. In return he practically legalised the presence of russian troops in Transnistria.
Voronin got also 50.000 tons of fuel for free and Smirnov got 200 mil USD from Russia. And people in Russia complain about crisis?!
In real life, not comments on internet, the vast majority of romanians (of course there are the regular nutheads too) has nothing against Russians as people or nation, quite the very contrary, but most of romanians have no sympathy or even hate Russia as a system and operating procedures.

Ataman
http://barabanch.livejournal.com/661372.html
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1152959

Adrian,

Thanks for the links. Does not look good of course. But little details:

"Между тем Россия оказывает Молдавии не только моральную поддержку. Высокопоставленный источник "Ъ" в международном аэропорту Кишинева сообщил, что рано утром в среду сюда из подмосковного Раменского прилетел Ил-76 с "опасным грузом на борту". "За час под усиленной охраной из самолета были выгружены ящики с газовыми гранатами "Черемуха" и другими спецсредствами. В 7.14 утра борт улетел обратно",— рассказал собеседник "Ъ". "

Please note, there is no airport as far as I know in "Раменское". The closest is in Жуковский - which does belong to ЦАГИ, it's basically a military airbase. Раменское and Жуковский are not far from each other, not sure it would be even safe to have a THIRD airport there.

I say THIRD, because the FIRST one is in Быково, that is 100% civilian.

By the way - I used to live in Быково for good 10 years and I was born in Жуковский.

Hence now I really do not know who is saying what. Of course, Коммерсантъ is a serious media, but why they doing such a lousy job of details being incorrect?

There is an airport called "ramenskoe.aero" - but it's precisely the same as the airport belonging to TSAGI and it is NOT, NOT, and NOT in "Раменское"! See the map - Ramenskoe is not even on the map, it should be quite a few more km away.

http://www.ramenskoe.aero/about/map/proezd.PNG

I am still not impressed with the media an it just adds more questions without answering any.

but most of romanians have no sympathy or even hate Russia as a system and operating procedures.
(adrian/bucharest, 10 April 2009 07:42)

They should say merely:
"Kremlin is full of crooks". Much simpler wording, and nothing anti-Russian in that. While this time (unrelated reasons) you won't have the majority of Russians or Serbs to back your opinion, there will be a very significant number who does agree.

The entire Central/East Europe is still essentially a "communist" system where the communists simply lost their inhibition and steal/pillage their countries almost at will. Oddly, Belarus is probably the least affected and probably only because the "West" had no opportunity there yet to "cooperate" with "former"(?) communists.

You also need to understand, why are Russians so over-protective at first sight. The expectation was that transformation from the dictatorship + idiotic policies + paternalistic state to a "better world" will be relatively smooth.

Instead what happened was a break-up of the country, one economic disaster after an other and for many losing more than what they gained. The people became very disappointed with democratic values and it is a major tragedy. Now there are significant voices demanding "strong hand" and "Russian Empire" at it's worst.

"West" did present itself from it's worst side sending crooks, adventurers, charlatans as "messengers" and "ambassadors". It also did NOT open itself, but demanded the other side to open. It also loved to pose as a "winner" of the cold war (truth: with China's raise the "West" is the LOSER of the cold war, China won it)

The communists in USSR/Russia/Eastern Block (you name it - here I mean everyone China included) "successfully" transferred themself into new role as "businessmen".

All this is a huge tragedy long-term, too: while LOSING the "Cold War" to China pathetically, the "West" successfully killed the industries in the rest of the "East Block" (shooting itself in the foot twice: alienating Russians and killing of the industrial potential it may need later to compete with China)