Sunday, 05.04.2009.
10:41
Some 50 Boljevci residents last night prevented a group of Roma families evicted from their shanty town in New Belgrade from spending the night there.
Izvor: B92
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 15 godina
To Milos, Bganon & Co
If it wasn't for the "gasterbajteri" Serbia's economy would be worse off. We are the ones that still buy serbian goods, we are the ones that send our dollars overseas and we are the ones that spend thousands when we go back on holidays.
A thank you would be sufficient.
The reason Kosovo declared independence is because of "Serbs" like you.
pre 15 godina
Bganon, it’s not what you do; it’s the fact that you make the most of it and you don’t give up. It’s what people do to pull through that defines their character. A person with a job, regardless of what kind, has determination and pride and can make it anywhere. One’s worth cannot be defined by one’s wealth. It doesn’t matter whether you work as a cleaner or an attendant and what not, rather, as long as you don’t give up.
And why don’t people do anything to change this? Why doesn’t this government crack down on the corruption? The government doesn’t have money to fund social services, none the less; it has the money to pay 100,000dinars + expenses monthly, to the 300+ ministers and the alike. Mind you, I cannot for the life of me believe the people within the political parties…a parliament session here is more closely related to a barn yard free-for-all. Those politicians sit there, reading newspapers, talking on their mobiles, talking to one another, walking around the room; all whilst arguments of critical importance are being presented. I’m sorry, but what in the hell went wrong there? Oh not to mention the government forking out $900,000 for the miladin kovacevic case… pretty odd that the American government would impose sanctions upon Serbia all because of a basketball player beating someone up….those kinds of things happen every day… why is miladin so important? A bit obvious that he was involved in something a lot deeper than basketball.
Cultural values? I would never have thought that any parent would take a child out onto the streets in the middle of winter to beg. Those people are not parents, not even animals would do that. Not to mention the fact that most of those people piss the money away on alcohol and drugs. Who will pay for the homes? The same people who recently invested millions into a road through Beograd that was meant to have been completed 10 years ago, and till this day it is still not completed. Those politicians who sold off some of the biggest abattoirs in the whole of the Balkans to EU companies should be forced to. Those politicians who closed down public wine cellars and force the importation of French wine which is 4 times more expensive…regardless of the fact that Serbia sits on the 43rd parallel, as does France, and Serbia has more fertile soil. The same government that allows the plantation and sale of hybrid plants [genetically altered], and all of the companies behind the plants being linked to companies in France, the UK and Germany. (Vojvodina region primarily). I get pissed at beggars who take their children out and fake injury to jib off hardworking people. The government should take them off the street. But your right, who will?
A gypsy that begs should work anywhere, regardless of the type of work. If the rest of the people can do it, what makes them so exemptible?
Trust me, as much as you would like to believe Australia is multicultural, it is by far one of the most racist countries in the world. Take a look at the Cronulla riots of 2005. Take a look at the term ‘wog’. Doesn’t matter who you are or what colour you are or anything, you will experience racism. I can imagine myself without a job, and if that were the case I would go and get whatever job I could. Even if the job is walking around the centre of Novi Sad with a sign.
It doesn’t take billions to create that sort of country; people need sewerage lines, clean water and electricity, not roads that run for hundreds of kilometres through desolate wastelands (I.E. the Nevada desert). To create the kind of country I am talking about requires will and hard work. I watched a blind man climb Mount Everest, for me nothing is impossible. But that’s the thing, even you support such a drive, almost everyone does, the only problem is people are afraid of getting shot like Dindic. What is the point of living when all you do is suffer and work your arse off so corrupt politicians can drive around drinking sauvignon? Those politicians wouldn’t have a job if people said no to them. I am a realist, Im an optimist and first and foremost, a human. I don’t do to others what I wouldn’t want done to me. The sad thing is that people let others suffer so they can shower in coloured paper and live a life which at the very last minute makes them realise it was all pointless.
A government exists only because the people allow it to. If people were to say no, what could the government possibly do?
I thank you for your thoughts and great comments, I just hope that people realise that despite the fact that life seems completely purposeless, we only get one. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country people, like me, want Serbia to be is a country that is worth something and that allows people to live a good life. But for now, I guess I’ll have to keep dreaming…when I finish off my course here, I will become a politician and we shall see what this country can be made into.
All the best =)
pre 15 godina
Goran, how having a job can alter one's ethnicity or race is beyond me. A gypsy / Roma is a gypsy / Roma, whether he is a millionaire, or living in a cardboard box. Just like Miskovic is a Serb, or the drunk in a park in Novi Sad is a Serb (provided he is a Serb).
And I'm telling you that the social services have neither the money or the inclination to take away children from the Roma. Its dubious in the beginning to impose different cultural values upon people that choose to live this way, never mind the human rights aspect or the right of parents to decide whats best for their children. In any case there are not enough homes. Who will pay for them? You who gets pissed at beggars would be happy to pay for an increase in tax for the social services budget?
But why should they work at bus stations when they are working as garbage collectors? Gypsys do work as cleaners, my girlfriends mother hires a gypsy to clean her house. How many jobs are there at bus stations exactly? Would you sack the Serbs working there now?
And of course you worked a number of different jobs. You were white and lived in Australia. You really don't have much of an idea about what it is to be a Roma. You imagine yourself in a situation as what you would do without a job. How about imagining first of all how it is to be a gypsy and then imagining trying to find a job.
Yes the roads are a joke.
Most towns don't have a decent sewage system, yes. In fact I'll agree with most of your observations, but with one proviso. To create the kind of country you are talking about costs BILLIONS of euros. Of course I support such a drive, but hey its not realistic. I'm not defeatist, I'd be ready to begin work on a radical (national) economic programme tomorrow, but I know who these people are that are governing us. Bad as they are, the opposition are even worse.
And I'm afraid it would not go away if the public took a stand. Thats a fantasy, a nice fantasy, but still a fantasy.
No Goran I think you are ok, but you have to dig deeper and get more experience. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country you want Serbia to be is a rich country, which it is not.
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 19:41)
Bganon, those people who work at bus stations collecting rubbish, those who are trash collectors, and so on, ARE REAL PEOPLE - NOT GYPSIES. If only more people would be as decent minded as them, rather, here, people won't dare go into a job that doesn't pay atleast 50,000din a month.... and that just isn't going to happen.
I don't apply western idealism to this country, that is what democracy is for, and we have all seen how well that works.
Children here should be placed into homes, or centres and the alike, and im telling you this because im sick to death of seeing gypsies drag babies out in the middle of winter and in hot weather so they can beg. Why don't they go and work at bus stations or as cleaners and that? If i didn't have a cent to my name the first thing i would do is go and get a job... i would not for the life of me beg. I have a brain, arms, legs and a back, and while i have life in me i will work. Im only 19 years old, yet, in Australia i worked as a factory labourer, in offices in the centre of the city, and a number of other things. I have met so many people and I have listened to their stories. Among them is one common goal of getting somewhere in life... I cant understand people here:
1. Most towns don't have drains for sewerage, water or even electricity.
2. The roads are an absolute joke....if you can consider them roads.
3. People who were hard working and worked all their lives trying to make this country something now live off 10,000din a month from their pensions.
4. Serbia exports goods to other countries (sugar for one) and then goes and buys goods from others for twice the price.... why? I have no idea, but corruption is everywhere.
5. Police officers here are afraid to arrest people.
6. Farmers are robbed blind by companies bumping down the price they buy products for and then jacking up the price 200% when its on shelves.
The list can keep going, but Im running out of time. Matter of the fact is that serbia is not a poor country, rather corruption sucks up what ever money exists to make it a better place.
If people in serbia were to stand up against this government and the corruption, it would all go away, yet people are too afraid.... and i don't know whether they prefer to live in fear, suffering, all their lives, or to make a stand.
sorry for the short response, not very well structured, out of time, but thank you for your comments.
pre 15 godina
Russian federation - best way to go.
(Goran., 6 April 2009 15:02)
Maybe one day in the future. So far I am not very optimistic.
http://tinyurl.com/cdy6f2
Scary isn't it? Lermontov wrote it in 1830.
pre 15 godina
Goran one thing you will come to understand is that being a westerner is not to oppose wetern policies, it is to adopt a certian mind set in line with certain cultural values.
You are using western parameters to pose questions such as why doesn't the child services department step in, like in Australia? Do you think that this country has a tenth of the budget that Australia has for this department? How many childrens homes are there in Serbia? Stop thinking like a westerner, the situation in Serbia is different. And no you can't compare aboriginies (cultural reference) to Roma, the Roma have a more disadvantaged position.
As far as bus tickets are concerned its not at all uncommon for Roma to travel without paying (please don't complain about that as well).
First off begging, do you think that all gypsies beg? Or to get down to it what percentage? We are then talking about some gypsies, not most or even half of them. Have you ever watched gypsies collecting cardboard? How much money do you think they make per day from this? What about gypsies employed as trashmen? How much do you think they receive, or roadsweepers, or toilet attenders, or perhaps at the market. Do you think they are in poverty? Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you see gypsy beggars that they are all beggars. How about watching the road cleaners for an hour? How about watching Roma music players for an hour outside your building? When there are 10 of them in a band and they average about 1000-2000 dinars an hour. That I have seen, in fact it happens almost on every slava / Saturday morning outside my building and I can watch from my balcony.
Ok for arguments sake lets say that in its possible to make 2,000 dinars per day begging. It might be possible to get more in high season and less when people are staying at home / no tourists. And lets not forget about the fact that nobody has money to give at the moment. That makes 24,000 dinars per month, well below the average wage. Nowhere near making more in a day than the average citizen makes in a month, quite the opposite.
Perhaps gypsies don't have access to running water. That is why they don't wash. (I can't say that about the crusty old man standing next to you in the bus, that really is habit). Check the statistic in UN reports, checked with data from local NGO'S. I've been in gyspy settlements myself and can confirm lack of running water. Again you are using Australia as a cultrual reference, where people have access to running water.
Yeah people (Serbian citizens) hang in the centre, but many will only buy one coffee. You got to understand that jobs are not out there. Its not a question of those people stop being lazy hanging in cafes. What would you have them do? Sit at home and adopt the western style depression? Culturally, Serbs would rather externalise than internalise. This is true on many levels and is probably more healthy for said individual, even if that person might annoy the rest of us.
No, Goran, you are thinking like a westerner in terms of cultural values, its pretty clear. Thats ok, but you have to understand that there are reasons why people (Roma and Serbs) behave differently. Its not just habit or pride, there are 'real' reasons too.
pre 15 godina
BH_NYC
Didn't the KLA kill and expel hundreds of Roma after the war? Perhaps it is Kosovo that should have been bombed by NATO and not allowed into Euro-Atlantic organizations then? The world is not stupid, they know of the crimes of the KLA too, don't think that they will be forgotten.
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 08:58)
In response to your comment:
They make more money in the sense that a 'roma' in one hour can make over a thousand dinars. How? Have you ever bothered to stop and watch them?
How about "give to me and god will give to you", or when they sit there with a child in their lap (the child is always crying) "spare some change so i can buy the child milk".
Or "can I ask you a question" (with bloodshot eyes and barely able to stand)"have you got a dinar"..... even better, how about when I had seen a gypsie (im not going to bother with roma, it isnt going to change a thing) from Sremska Mitrovica in Novi Sad, begging. If he hasn't got any money, and needs to beg, how in the hell did he afford 620 dinars for a bus ticket?
And why doesn't the department of child services step in? In Australia you DO NOT find children on the streets. We look after children and make sure they get homes.
How much money? ATLEAST 2,000 dinars PER DAY. How? A gypise sits on a corner, in a wheel chair, with another one always close by watching, yelling for money, and i mean yelling. People feel sorry, and give them 10, 20, 50 + dinars. That one person will have atleast 40 people in a day give them money. Don't believe me? go watch them.
Yeah im sure the serbs are interested, the only ones that beg here are the alcholics... mind you, there are others that beg. Explain to me how i once gave a guy 50 dinars so he could afford a bus ticket, and since then he's asked me 5 other times to spare some change so he can buy a bus ticket (I ALWAYS SAY NO NOW), the same excuse, and HE NEVER GETS ON A BUS?!?!?!
And why don't the gypsies ever wash up? Why can't they keep anything clean? It costs 60 dinars (US$1) for 6L of water.
And yes your right, a lot of people in serbia don't have a job, just like in other countries; ONLY difference being people in other countries don't pack the centre of the city drinking coffee and what not, and then complain about a lack of money.
In Australia, people go and get loans but before they do, they always make sure that one persons wage is left aside for basic needs.... in serbia, married couples get a loan, and decide to use both their wages to repay the loans.
if i was thinking like a westerner id support the wars in iraq and afghanistan, and kosovo independence and a whole lot more. I CANT STAND THE WEST!
Russian federation - best way to go.
pre 15 godina
To Bganon (#12); normally I enjoy and respect your comments on these pages. I think you must be having a bad day today as your comment -
“your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc” is simplistic, unfair and just perpetuates unthinking animosity between Serbia and “the west”.
The comments you quote can come from any bigoted source and not just the west.
Poor treatment of minorities can happen in any society. The fact that it’s reported on the front page of Serbian newspapers and that the police and elected leaders are speaking up against it shows that Serbia is taking this very seriously. This should encourage people to realise that Serbia is indeed a nation that upholds decent values.
Peace and respect to all
GRUK
pre 15 godina
GRUK having lived in the west, I'm very aware of common attitudes - particularly among the right wing and the 'new' leftists.
In Serbia people just do not say that social services should take Roma children away. People just don't think about the topic that much and those that do, know that Roma children will not be adopted, so it is pointless taking Roma children away. This point applies for western societies where the situation is different.
Likewise as I'm sure you know 'Get a job' is a slogan used in the west and is not used by Serbians. The slogan is intended for the homeless / unemployed in western socities and the anger is due to these homeless apparantly being in receipt of certain social benefits. As we know the Roma do not qualify for these benefits in Serbia. Of course the real reason why people in western socieities use dumb slogans like that is because they feel residual guilt about people poorer than themselves, but choose to express that guilt through anger.
Lastly the kind of rubbish that 'they' whoever 'they' are, earn more in a day than others do in a month is something else I heard only in the west. I can't help that fact, just my own experience.
I don't wish to perpetuate animosity between anybody, it does not interest me. However, I strongly believe that these attitudes are not held in Serbia. That is not to say there is not discrimination against Roma in Serbia, there is.
But to return to topic, the fact that we are in this situation was Djilas' fault. This guy is meant to understand the media and politics and yet he thought he could demolish the encampment without any headlines, then thought he could move the Roma on quietly. Very foolish. There might have been a chance to rehouse the Roma on the quiet, but he blew that.
He has created an even bigger problem for himself. It will be impossible to demolish any more encampments, as having read the headlines, people will try to stop the Roma moving into their area. I won't accuse them of using western attitudes, although NIMBY (look it up if you don't know it) does not have a Serbian acronymn equivalent.
By the way I'd be quite happy if those 50 roma were given a place in my opstina, although I think when you get to the thousands you have to think about spreading out rehousing in different areas.
pre 15 godina
There is no news that gypsies are unwanted and there is a reason for this. And this is not only in Serbia... By the way and I would suggest to BH to take them all to NYC so that they can enjoy true democracy ;)
pre 15 godina
Totally agree with bganon: it gets boring listening to these gastarbejteri lecturing Serbs about how to run our own society.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
BH_NYC
Well look who's talking Mr New york! I guess America is so much better? The richest country on earth doesn't have healt insurence for it's people. Letting them die in front of the hospital because they don't have health insurence. At least Serbian media is willing to talk about the problems in Serbia. Albanians are propably having a field day reading this article, like Albania is so much better with it's huge population of poor people. However, the albanians don't treat their minorities like this but that is because they don't have any.
pre 15 godina
Goran Explain this statement 'they make more money in one day than most people do in a month'. If you know that then perhaps you'd tell the rest of us exactly how much we are talking about. And where does this money come from, because I'm sure that tens of thousands of Serbs would do the same work for that kind of money.
Man, your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc, its clear you have spent too long in Australia. 'If everybody else can.. (get a job)'. Excuse me? Have you looked around recently, everybody does not have a job in Serbia.
pre 15 godina
so sad that families with children and a whole community of people are forced from their homes for a sports event. i hope all the international students boycott the games when they find out about this criminal injustice and persecution of a minority community.
pre 15 godina
b92 please continue to bring attention to this horror that is being perpetrated on the poor. When one person is denied their right tot the neccesities of life, all people are.
Zoran, your comment is spot on these so called westernizers are elitist racist champagne socialists who do not appreciate Serbia and its people. The back room deal making that allowed them to take control of the Belgrade government is indicative of their contempt for democracy and the voter.
It is no wonder why Diljas is not being called before the main DS party board to explain yesterdays comments; this sort of thing is okay with the DS, who view refugees as a burden.
pre 15 godina
Serbia needs to learn how to look after it's ethnic minorities.
pre 15 godina
Just like democracy, romas dont work.
I always thought it was just a government thing, but having moved here from australia, after living there for 15 years, i soon realised that they make more money in one day than most people do in a month. I even went as far as to offer a roma a job on friday, he was nice enough to say "i cant lift things, bad back" and then i saw him pick up a damaged television set and walk off, later, on the same day.
I'm in Novi Sad, and Ive been to Beograd, and over there its even more of a joke. Should see at the bus/train stations. Its not entirely the governemnt, and yet it is, because if this government was worth anything it would have the department of child services take all the children away from these people who sit outside in the middle of the winter begging.
GET A JOB, if everyone else can, so can they. Of course there is some prejudice towards them, but hell, explain why germany and some other EU countries recentlty sent romas to serbia even when most of them didnt know how to speak serb.
pre 15 godina
So apparently Serbia doesn't belong in the EU for it's treatment of the Roma?
Never mind that Gypsies tend to be unwelcome in suburbs in Serbia as much as they are in suburbs in England.
I'd also like to know if Serbia doesn't belong in the EU over treatment of Roma? Why are Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria members- Roma in these make up 10% of the population and are treated worst then in Serbia according to Roma NGOs.
Ignoring Eastern Europe. Why is Italy a member given that Italian police (by extension the Italian state) have burned down several Roma settlements and the mayor of Rome encorage them to do so, despite the courts ruling this as being illegal.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
Serbia is providing these Roma with new homes after they were ethnically cleeansed from Kosovo. Are you suggesting their response to them is not harsh enough, like in Italy?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2437887/Italians-sunbathe-next-to-drowned-gipsy-children.html
You are right, Serbia has far more morality than the hypocritical, immoral, and corrupt EU. I personally hope they never join that German run anti-Serb club. Serbia will be more prosperous outside it.
Cheers!!
pre 15 godina
CG: Stop blaming the Albanians for all your problems.
pre 15 godina
Were are all these comments that praise serbian democarcy and that all are equal in Serbia???
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
--
Do you realise the people doing these indecent acts were actually brought to that position by the EU? Yes, it's the "for a EUlex Serbia" party and partners treating these Roma in such a way.
But you are right, Serbia should not enter the EU under any circumstances. It would be like moving from one dictatorship to another.
pre 15 godina
They were chased out from our southern province by the albanians.They should return here right now.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
Serbia is providing these Roma with new homes after they were ethnically cleeansed from Kosovo. Are you suggesting their response to them is not harsh enough, like in Italy?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2437887/Italians-sunbathe-next-to-drowned-gipsy-children.html
You are right, Serbia has far more morality than the hypocritical, immoral, and corrupt EU. I personally hope they never join that German run anti-Serb club. Serbia will be more prosperous outside it.
Cheers!!
pre 15 godina
CG: Stop blaming the Albanians for all your problems.
pre 15 godina
So apparently Serbia doesn't belong in the EU for it's treatment of the Roma?
Never mind that Gypsies tend to be unwelcome in suburbs in Serbia as much as they are in suburbs in England.
I'd also like to know if Serbia doesn't belong in the EU over treatment of Roma? Why are Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria members- Roma in these make up 10% of the population and are treated worst then in Serbia according to Roma NGOs.
Ignoring Eastern Europe. Why is Italy a member given that Italian police (by extension the Italian state) have burned down several Roma settlements and the mayor of Rome encorage them to do so, despite the courts ruling this as being illegal.
pre 15 godina
Just like democracy, romas dont work.
I always thought it was just a government thing, but having moved here from australia, after living there for 15 years, i soon realised that they make more money in one day than most people do in a month. I even went as far as to offer a roma a job on friday, he was nice enough to say "i cant lift things, bad back" and then i saw him pick up a damaged television set and walk off, later, on the same day.
I'm in Novi Sad, and Ive been to Beograd, and over there its even more of a joke. Should see at the bus/train stations. Its not entirely the governemnt, and yet it is, because if this government was worth anything it would have the department of child services take all the children away from these people who sit outside in the middle of the winter begging.
GET A JOB, if everyone else can, so can they. Of course there is some prejudice towards them, but hell, explain why germany and some other EU countries recentlty sent romas to serbia even when most of them didnt know how to speak serb.
pre 15 godina
They were chased out from our southern province by the albanians.They should return here right now.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
--
Do you realise the people doing these indecent acts were actually brought to that position by the EU? Yes, it's the "for a EUlex Serbia" party and partners treating these Roma in such a way.
But you are right, Serbia should not enter the EU under any circumstances. It would be like moving from one dictatorship to another.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
pre 15 godina
Were are all these comments that praise serbian democarcy and that all are equal in Serbia???
pre 15 godina
Serbia needs to learn how to look after it's ethnic minorities.
pre 15 godina
Goran Explain this statement 'they make more money in one day than most people do in a month'. If you know that then perhaps you'd tell the rest of us exactly how much we are talking about. And where does this money come from, because I'm sure that tens of thousands of Serbs would do the same work for that kind of money.
Man, your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc, its clear you have spent too long in Australia. 'If everybody else can.. (get a job)'. Excuse me? Have you looked around recently, everybody does not have a job in Serbia.
pre 15 godina
BH_NYC
Didn't the KLA kill and expel hundreds of Roma after the war? Perhaps it is Kosovo that should have been bombed by NATO and not allowed into Euro-Atlantic organizations then? The world is not stupid, they know of the crimes of the KLA too, don't think that they will be forgotten.
pre 15 godina
Goran one thing you will come to understand is that being a westerner is not to oppose wetern policies, it is to adopt a certian mind set in line with certain cultural values.
You are using western parameters to pose questions such as why doesn't the child services department step in, like in Australia? Do you think that this country has a tenth of the budget that Australia has for this department? How many childrens homes are there in Serbia? Stop thinking like a westerner, the situation in Serbia is different. And no you can't compare aboriginies (cultural reference) to Roma, the Roma have a more disadvantaged position.
As far as bus tickets are concerned its not at all uncommon for Roma to travel without paying (please don't complain about that as well).
First off begging, do you think that all gypsies beg? Or to get down to it what percentage? We are then talking about some gypsies, not most or even half of them. Have you ever watched gypsies collecting cardboard? How much money do you think they make per day from this? What about gypsies employed as trashmen? How much do you think they receive, or roadsweepers, or toilet attenders, or perhaps at the market. Do you think they are in poverty? Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you see gypsy beggars that they are all beggars. How about watching the road cleaners for an hour? How about watching Roma music players for an hour outside your building? When there are 10 of them in a band and they average about 1000-2000 dinars an hour. That I have seen, in fact it happens almost on every slava / Saturday morning outside my building and I can watch from my balcony.
Ok for arguments sake lets say that in its possible to make 2,000 dinars per day begging. It might be possible to get more in high season and less when people are staying at home / no tourists. And lets not forget about the fact that nobody has money to give at the moment. That makes 24,000 dinars per month, well below the average wage. Nowhere near making more in a day than the average citizen makes in a month, quite the opposite.
Perhaps gypsies don't have access to running water. That is why they don't wash. (I can't say that about the crusty old man standing next to you in the bus, that really is habit). Check the statistic in UN reports, checked with data from local NGO'S. I've been in gyspy settlements myself and can confirm lack of running water. Again you are using Australia as a cultrual reference, where people have access to running water.
Yeah people (Serbian citizens) hang in the centre, but many will only buy one coffee. You got to understand that jobs are not out there. Its not a question of those people stop being lazy hanging in cafes. What would you have them do? Sit at home and adopt the western style depression? Culturally, Serbs would rather externalise than internalise. This is true on many levels and is probably more healthy for said individual, even if that person might annoy the rest of us.
No, Goran, you are thinking like a westerner in terms of cultural values, its pretty clear. Thats ok, but you have to understand that there are reasons why people (Roma and Serbs) behave differently. Its not just habit or pride, there are 'real' reasons too.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
BH_NYC
Well look who's talking Mr New york! I guess America is so much better? The richest country on earth doesn't have healt insurence for it's people. Letting them die in front of the hospital because they don't have health insurence. At least Serbian media is willing to talk about the problems in Serbia. Albanians are propably having a field day reading this article, like Albania is so much better with it's huge population of poor people. However, the albanians don't treat their minorities like this but that is because they don't have any.
pre 15 godina
GRUK having lived in the west, I'm very aware of common attitudes - particularly among the right wing and the 'new' leftists.
In Serbia people just do not say that social services should take Roma children away. People just don't think about the topic that much and those that do, know that Roma children will not be adopted, so it is pointless taking Roma children away. This point applies for western societies where the situation is different.
Likewise as I'm sure you know 'Get a job' is a slogan used in the west and is not used by Serbians. The slogan is intended for the homeless / unemployed in western socities and the anger is due to these homeless apparantly being in receipt of certain social benefits. As we know the Roma do not qualify for these benefits in Serbia. Of course the real reason why people in western socieities use dumb slogans like that is because they feel residual guilt about people poorer than themselves, but choose to express that guilt through anger.
Lastly the kind of rubbish that 'they' whoever 'they' are, earn more in a day than others do in a month is something else I heard only in the west. I can't help that fact, just my own experience.
I don't wish to perpetuate animosity between anybody, it does not interest me. However, I strongly believe that these attitudes are not held in Serbia. That is not to say there is not discrimination against Roma in Serbia, there is.
But to return to topic, the fact that we are in this situation was Djilas' fault. This guy is meant to understand the media and politics and yet he thought he could demolish the encampment without any headlines, then thought he could move the Roma on quietly. Very foolish. There might have been a chance to rehouse the Roma on the quiet, but he blew that.
He has created an even bigger problem for himself. It will be impossible to demolish any more encampments, as having read the headlines, people will try to stop the Roma moving into their area. I won't accuse them of using western attitudes, although NIMBY (look it up if you don't know it) does not have a Serbian acronymn equivalent.
By the way I'd be quite happy if those 50 roma were given a place in my opstina, although I think when you get to the thousands you have to think about spreading out rehousing in different areas.
pre 15 godina
Totally agree with bganon: it gets boring listening to these gastarbejteri lecturing Serbs about how to run our own society.
pre 15 godina
b92 please continue to bring attention to this horror that is being perpetrated on the poor. When one person is denied their right tot the neccesities of life, all people are.
Zoran, your comment is spot on these so called westernizers are elitist racist champagne socialists who do not appreciate Serbia and its people. The back room deal making that allowed them to take control of the Belgrade government is indicative of their contempt for democracy and the voter.
It is no wonder why Diljas is not being called before the main DS party board to explain yesterdays comments; this sort of thing is okay with the DS, who view refugees as a burden.
pre 15 godina
To Bganon (#12); normally I enjoy and respect your comments on these pages. I think you must be having a bad day today as your comment -
“your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc” is simplistic, unfair and just perpetuates unthinking animosity between Serbia and “the west”.
The comments you quote can come from any bigoted source and not just the west.
Poor treatment of minorities can happen in any society. The fact that it’s reported on the front page of Serbian newspapers and that the police and elected leaders are speaking up against it shows that Serbia is taking this very seriously. This should encourage people to realise that Serbia is indeed a nation that upholds decent values.
Peace and respect to all
GRUK
pre 15 godina
There is no news that gypsies are unwanted and there is a reason for this. And this is not only in Serbia... By the way and I would suggest to BH to take them all to NYC so that they can enjoy true democracy ;)
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 08:58)
In response to your comment:
They make more money in the sense that a 'roma' in one hour can make over a thousand dinars. How? Have you ever bothered to stop and watch them?
How about "give to me and god will give to you", or when they sit there with a child in their lap (the child is always crying) "spare some change so i can buy the child milk".
Or "can I ask you a question" (with bloodshot eyes and barely able to stand)"have you got a dinar"..... even better, how about when I had seen a gypsie (im not going to bother with roma, it isnt going to change a thing) from Sremska Mitrovica in Novi Sad, begging. If he hasn't got any money, and needs to beg, how in the hell did he afford 620 dinars for a bus ticket?
And why doesn't the department of child services step in? In Australia you DO NOT find children on the streets. We look after children and make sure they get homes.
How much money? ATLEAST 2,000 dinars PER DAY. How? A gypise sits on a corner, in a wheel chair, with another one always close by watching, yelling for money, and i mean yelling. People feel sorry, and give them 10, 20, 50 + dinars. That one person will have atleast 40 people in a day give them money. Don't believe me? go watch them.
Yeah im sure the serbs are interested, the only ones that beg here are the alcholics... mind you, there are others that beg. Explain to me how i once gave a guy 50 dinars so he could afford a bus ticket, and since then he's asked me 5 other times to spare some change so he can buy a bus ticket (I ALWAYS SAY NO NOW), the same excuse, and HE NEVER GETS ON A BUS?!?!?!
And why don't the gypsies ever wash up? Why can't they keep anything clean? It costs 60 dinars (US$1) for 6L of water.
And yes your right, a lot of people in serbia don't have a job, just like in other countries; ONLY difference being people in other countries don't pack the centre of the city drinking coffee and what not, and then complain about a lack of money.
In Australia, people go and get loans but before they do, they always make sure that one persons wage is left aside for basic needs.... in serbia, married couples get a loan, and decide to use both their wages to repay the loans.
if i was thinking like a westerner id support the wars in iraq and afghanistan, and kosovo independence and a whole lot more. I CANT STAND THE WEST!
Russian federation - best way to go.
pre 15 godina
so sad that families with children and a whole community of people are forced from their homes for a sports event. i hope all the international students boycott the games when they find out about this criminal injustice and persecution of a minority community.
pre 15 godina
Goran, how having a job can alter one's ethnicity or race is beyond me. A gypsy / Roma is a gypsy / Roma, whether he is a millionaire, or living in a cardboard box. Just like Miskovic is a Serb, or the drunk in a park in Novi Sad is a Serb (provided he is a Serb).
And I'm telling you that the social services have neither the money or the inclination to take away children from the Roma. Its dubious in the beginning to impose different cultural values upon people that choose to live this way, never mind the human rights aspect or the right of parents to decide whats best for their children. In any case there are not enough homes. Who will pay for them? You who gets pissed at beggars would be happy to pay for an increase in tax for the social services budget?
But why should they work at bus stations when they are working as garbage collectors? Gypsys do work as cleaners, my girlfriends mother hires a gypsy to clean her house. How many jobs are there at bus stations exactly? Would you sack the Serbs working there now?
And of course you worked a number of different jobs. You were white and lived in Australia. You really don't have much of an idea about what it is to be a Roma. You imagine yourself in a situation as what you would do without a job. How about imagining first of all how it is to be a gypsy and then imagining trying to find a job.
Yes the roads are a joke.
Most towns don't have a decent sewage system, yes. In fact I'll agree with most of your observations, but with one proviso. To create the kind of country you are talking about costs BILLIONS of euros. Of course I support such a drive, but hey its not realistic. I'm not defeatist, I'd be ready to begin work on a radical (national) economic programme tomorrow, but I know who these people are that are governing us. Bad as they are, the opposition are even worse.
And I'm afraid it would not go away if the public took a stand. Thats a fantasy, a nice fantasy, but still a fantasy.
No Goran I think you are ok, but you have to dig deeper and get more experience. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country you want Serbia to be is a rich country, which it is not.
pre 15 godina
Russian federation - best way to go.
(Goran., 6 April 2009 15:02)
Maybe one day in the future. So far I am not very optimistic.
http://tinyurl.com/cdy6f2
Scary isn't it? Lermontov wrote it in 1830.
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 19:41)
Bganon, those people who work at bus stations collecting rubbish, those who are trash collectors, and so on, ARE REAL PEOPLE - NOT GYPSIES. If only more people would be as decent minded as them, rather, here, people won't dare go into a job that doesn't pay atleast 50,000din a month.... and that just isn't going to happen.
I don't apply western idealism to this country, that is what democracy is for, and we have all seen how well that works.
Children here should be placed into homes, or centres and the alike, and im telling you this because im sick to death of seeing gypsies drag babies out in the middle of winter and in hot weather so they can beg. Why don't they go and work at bus stations or as cleaners and that? If i didn't have a cent to my name the first thing i would do is go and get a job... i would not for the life of me beg. I have a brain, arms, legs and a back, and while i have life in me i will work. Im only 19 years old, yet, in Australia i worked as a factory labourer, in offices in the centre of the city, and a number of other things. I have met so many people and I have listened to their stories. Among them is one common goal of getting somewhere in life... I cant understand people here:
1. Most towns don't have drains for sewerage, water or even electricity.
2. The roads are an absolute joke....if you can consider them roads.
3. People who were hard working and worked all their lives trying to make this country something now live off 10,000din a month from their pensions.
4. Serbia exports goods to other countries (sugar for one) and then goes and buys goods from others for twice the price.... why? I have no idea, but corruption is everywhere.
5. Police officers here are afraid to arrest people.
6. Farmers are robbed blind by companies bumping down the price they buy products for and then jacking up the price 200% when its on shelves.
The list can keep going, but Im running out of time. Matter of the fact is that serbia is not a poor country, rather corruption sucks up what ever money exists to make it a better place.
If people in serbia were to stand up against this government and the corruption, it would all go away, yet people are too afraid.... and i don't know whether they prefer to live in fear, suffering, all their lives, or to make a stand.
sorry for the short response, not very well structured, out of time, but thank you for your comments.
pre 15 godina
Bganon, it’s not what you do; it’s the fact that you make the most of it and you don’t give up. It’s what people do to pull through that defines their character. A person with a job, regardless of what kind, has determination and pride and can make it anywhere. One’s worth cannot be defined by one’s wealth. It doesn’t matter whether you work as a cleaner or an attendant and what not, rather, as long as you don’t give up.
And why don’t people do anything to change this? Why doesn’t this government crack down on the corruption? The government doesn’t have money to fund social services, none the less; it has the money to pay 100,000dinars + expenses monthly, to the 300+ ministers and the alike. Mind you, I cannot for the life of me believe the people within the political parties…a parliament session here is more closely related to a barn yard free-for-all. Those politicians sit there, reading newspapers, talking on their mobiles, talking to one another, walking around the room; all whilst arguments of critical importance are being presented. I’m sorry, but what in the hell went wrong there? Oh not to mention the government forking out $900,000 for the miladin kovacevic case… pretty odd that the American government would impose sanctions upon Serbia all because of a basketball player beating someone up….those kinds of things happen every day… why is miladin so important? A bit obvious that he was involved in something a lot deeper than basketball.
Cultural values? I would never have thought that any parent would take a child out onto the streets in the middle of winter to beg. Those people are not parents, not even animals would do that. Not to mention the fact that most of those people piss the money away on alcohol and drugs. Who will pay for the homes? The same people who recently invested millions into a road through Beograd that was meant to have been completed 10 years ago, and till this day it is still not completed. Those politicians who sold off some of the biggest abattoirs in the whole of the Balkans to EU companies should be forced to. Those politicians who closed down public wine cellars and force the importation of French wine which is 4 times more expensive…regardless of the fact that Serbia sits on the 43rd parallel, as does France, and Serbia has more fertile soil. The same government that allows the plantation and sale of hybrid plants [genetically altered], and all of the companies behind the plants being linked to companies in France, the UK and Germany. (Vojvodina region primarily). I get pissed at beggars who take their children out and fake injury to jib off hardworking people. The government should take them off the street. But your right, who will?
A gypsy that begs should work anywhere, regardless of the type of work. If the rest of the people can do it, what makes them so exemptible?
Trust me, as much as you would like to believe Australia is multicultural, it is by far one of the most racist countries in the world. Take a look at the Cronulla riots of 2005. Take a look at the term ‘wog’. Doesn’t matter who you are or what colour you are or anything, you will experience racism. I can imagine myself without a job, and if that were the case I would go and get whatever job I could. Even if the job is walking around the centre of Novi Sad with a sign.
It doesn’t take billions to create that sort of country; people need sewerage lines, clean water and electricity, not roads that run for hundreds of kilometres through desolate wastelands (I.E. the Nevada desert). To create the kind of country I am talking about requires will and hard work. I watched a blind man climb Mount Everest, for me nothing is impossible. But that’s the thing, even you support such a drive, almost everyone does, the only problem is people are afraid of getting shot like Dindic. What is the point of living when all you do is suffer and work your arse off so corrupt politicians can drive around drinking sauvignon? Those politicians wouldn’t have a job if people said no to them. I am a realist, Im an optimist and first and foremost, a human. I don’t do to others what I wouldn’t want done to me. The sad thing is that people let others suffer so they can shower in coloured paper and live a life which at the very last minute makes them realise it was all pointless.
A government exists only because the people allow it to. If people were to say no, what could the government possibly do?
I thank you for your thoughts and great comments, I just hope that people realise that despite the fact that life seems completely purposeless, we only get one. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country people, like me, want Serbia to be is a country that is worth something and that allows people to live a good life. But for now, I guess I’ll have to keep dreaming…when I finish off my course here, I will become a politician and we shall see what this country can be made into.
All the best =)
pre 15 godina
To Milos, Bganon & Co
If it wasn't for the "gasterbajteri" Serbia's economy would be worse off. We are the ones that still buy serbian goods, we are the ones that send our dollars overseas and we are the ones that spend thousands when we go back on holidays.
A thank you would be sufficient.
The reason Kosovo declared independence is because of "Serbs" like you.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
pre 15 godina
CG: Stop blaming the Albanians for all your problems.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
--
Do you realise the people doing these indecent acts were actually brought to that position by the EU? Yes, it's the "for a EUlex Serbia" party and partners treating these Roma in such a way.
But you are right, Serbia should not enter the EU under any circumstances. It would be like moving from one dictatorship to another.
pre 15 godina
They were chased out from our southern province by the albanians.They should return here right now.
pre 15 godina
Serbia needs to learn how to look after it's ethnic minorities.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
(BH_NYC, 5 April 2009 11:32)
Serbia is providing these Roma with new homes after they were ethnically cleeansed from Kosovo. Are you suggesting their response to them is not harsh enough, like in Italy?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2437887/Italians-sunbathe-next-to-drowned-gipsy-children.html
You are right, Serbia has far more morality than the hypocritical, immoral, and corrupt EU. I personally hope they never join that German run anti-Serb club. Serbia will be more prosperous outside it.
Cheers!!
pre 15 godina
Were are all these comments that praise serbian democarcy and that all are equal in Serbia???
pre 15 godina
Just like democracy, romas dont work.
I always thought it was just a government thing, but having moved here from australia, after living there for 15 years, i soon realised that they make more money in one day than most people do in a month. I even went as far as to offer a roma a job on friday, he was nice enough to say "i cant lift things, bad back" and then i saw him pick up a damaged television set and walk off, later, on the same day.
I'm in Novi Sad, and Ive been to Beograd, and over there its even more of a joke. Should see at the bus/train stations. Its not entirely the governemnt, and yet it is, because if this government was worth anything it would have the department of child services take all the children away from these people who sit outside in the middle of the winter begging.
GET A JOB, if everyone else can, so can they. Of course there is some prejudice towards them, but hell, explain why germany and some other EU countries recentlty sent romas to serbia even when most of them didnt know how to speak serb.
pre 15 godina
b92 please continue to bring attention to this horror that is being perpetrated on the poor. When one person is denied their right tot the neccesities of life, all people are.
Zoran, your comment is spot on these so called westernizers are elitist racist champagne socialists who do not appreciate Serbia and its people. The back room deal making that allowed them to take control of the Belgrade government is indicative of their contempt for democracy and the voter.
It is no wonder why Diljas is not being called before the main DS party board to explain yesterdays comments; this sort of thing is okay with the DS, who view refugees as a burden.
pre 15 godina
So apparently Serbia doesn't belong in the EU for it's treatment of the Roma?
Never mind that Gypsies tend to be unwelcome in suburbs in Serbia as much as they are in suburbs in England.
I'd also like to know if Serbia doesn't belong in the EU over treatment of Roma? Why are Romania, Slovakia and Bulgaria members- Roma in these make up 10% of the population and are treated worst then in Serbia according to Roma NGOs.
Ignoring Eastern Europe. Why is Italy a member given that Italian police (by extension the Italian state) have burned down several Roma settlements and the mayor of Rome encorage them to do so, despite the courts ruling this as being illegal.
pre 15 godina
so sad that families with children and a whole community of people are forced from their homes for a sports event. i hope all the international students boycott the games when they find out about this criminal injustice and persecution of a minority community.
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 08:58)
In response to your comment:
They make more money in the sense that a 'roma' in one hour can make over a thousand dinars. How? Have you ever bothered to stop and watch them?
How about "give to me and god will give to you", or when they sit there with a child in their lap (the child is always crying) "spare some change so i can buy the child milk".
Or "can I ask you a question" (with bloodshot eyes and barely able to stand)"have you got a dinar"..... even better, how about when I had seen a gypsie (im not going to bother with roma, it isnt going to change a thing) from Sremska Mitrovica in Novi Sad, begging. If he hasn't got any money, and needs to beg, how in the hell did he afford 620 dinars for a bus ticket?
And why doesn't the department of child services step in? In Australia you DO NOT find children on the streets. We look after children and make sure they get homes.
How much money? ATLEAST 2,000 dinars PER DAY. How? A gypise sits on a corner, in a wheel chair, with another one always close by watching, yelling for money, and i mean yelling. People feel sorry, and give them 10, 20, 50 + dinars. That one person will have atleast 40 people in a day give them money. Don't believe me? go watch them.
Yeah im sure the serbs are interested, the only ones that beg here are the alcholics... mind you, there are others that beg. Explain to me how i once gave a guy 50 dinars so he could afford a bus ticket, and since then he's asked me 5 other times to spare some change so he can buy a bus ticket (I ALWAYS SAY NO NOW), the same excuse, and HE NEVER GETS ON A BUS?!?!?!
And why don't the gypsies ever wash up? Why can't they keep anything clean? It costs 60 dinars (US$1) for 6L of water.
And yes your right, a lot of people in serbia don't have a job, just like in other countries; ONLY difference being people in other countries don't pack the centre of the city drinking coffee and what not, and then complain about a lack of money.
In Australia, people go and get loans but before they do, they always make sure that one persons wage is left aside for basic needs.... in serbia, married couples get a loan, and decide to use both their wages to repay the loans.
if i was thinking like a westerner id support the wars in iraq and afghanistan, and kosovo independence and a whole lot more. I CANT STAND THE WEST!
Russian federation - best way to go.
pre 15 godina
Goran Explain this statement 'they make more money in one day than most people do in a month'. If you know that then perhaps you'd tell the rest of us exactly how much we are talking about. And where does this money come from, because I'm sure that tens of thousands of Serbs would do the same work for that kind of money.
Man, your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc, its clear you have spent too long in Australia. 'If everybody else can.. (get a job)'. Excuse me? Have you looked around recently, everybody does not have a job in Serbia.
pre 15 godina
Another clear picture of why Serbia doesn't belong in EU.
BH_NYC
Well look who's talking Mr New york! I guess America is so much better? The richest country on earth doesn't have healt insurence for it's people. Letting them die in front of the hospital because they don't have health insurence. At least Serbian media is willing to talk about the problems in Serbia. Albanians are propably having a field day reading this article, like Albania is so much better with it's huge population of poor people. However, the albanians don't treat their minorities like this but that is because they don't have any.
pre 15 godina
Totally agree with bganon: it gets boring listening to these gastarbejteri lecturing Serbs about how to run our own society.
pre 15 godina
BH_NYC
Didn't the KLA kill and expel hundreds of Roma after the war? Perhaps it is Kosovo that should have been bombed by NATO and not allowed into Euro-Atlantic organizations then? The world is not stupid, they know of the crimes of the KLA too, don't think that they will be forgotten.
pre 15 godina
(bganon, 6 April 2009 19:41)
Bganon, those people who work at bus stations collecting rubbish, those who are trash collectors, and so on, ARE REAL PEOPLE - NOT GYPSIES. If only more people would be as decent minded as them, rather, here, people won't dare go into a job that doesn't pay atleast 50,000din a month.... and that just isn't going to happen.
I don't apply western idealism to this country, that is what democracy is for, and we have all seen how well that works.
Children here should be placed into homes, or centres and the alike, and im telling you this because im sick to death of seeing gypsies drag babies out in the middle of winter and in hot weather so they can beg. Why don't they go and work at bus stations or as cleaners and that? If i didn't have a cent to my name the first thing i would do is go and get a job... i would not for the life of me beg. I have a brain, arms, legs and a back, and while i have life in me i will work. Im only 19 years old, yet, in Australia i worked as a factory labourer, in offices in the centre of the city, and a number of other things. I have met so many people and I have listened to their stories. Among them is one common goal of getting somewhere in life... I cant understand people here:
1. Most towns don't have drains for sewerage, water or even electricity.
2. The roads are an absolute joke....if you can consider them roads.
3. People who were hard working and worked all their lives trying to make this country something now live off 10,000din a month from their pensions.
4. Serbia exports goods to other countries (sugar for one) and then goes and buys goods from others for twice the price.... why? I have no idea, but corruption is everywhere.
5. Police officers here are afraid to arrest people.
6. Farmers are robbed blind by companies bumping down the price they buy products for and then jacking up the price 200% when its on shelves.
The list can keep going, but Im running out of time. Matter of the fact is that serbia is not a poor country, rather corruption sucks up what ever money exists to make it a better place.
If people in serbia were to stand up against this government and the corruption, it would all go away, yet people are too afraid.... and i don't know whether they prefer to live in fear, suffering, all their lives, or to make a stand.
sorry for the short response, not very well structured, out of time, but thank you for your comments.
pre 15 godina
There is no news that gypsies are unwanted and there is a reason for this. And this is not only in Serbia... By the way and I would suggest to BH to take them all to NYC so that they can enjoy true democracy ;)
pre 15 godina
To Bganon (#12); normally I enjoy and respect your comments on these pages. I think you must be having a bad day today as your comment -
“your post is so full of westernisms 'get a job', 'romas don't work', 'social services to take children away' etc” is simplistic, unfair and just perpetuates unthinking animosity between Serbia and “the west”.
The comments you quote can come from any bigoted source and not just the west.
Poor treatment of minorities can happen in any society. The fact that it’s reported on the front page of Serbian newspapers and that the police and elected leaders are speaking up against it shows that Serbia is taking this very seriously. This should encourage people to realise that Serbia is indeed a nation that upholds decent values.
Peace and respect to all
GRUK
pre 15 godina
GRUK having lived in the west, I'm very aware of common attitudes - particularly among the right wing and the 'new' leftists.
In Serbia people just do not say that social services should take Roma children away. People just don't think about the topic that much and those that do, know that Roma children will not be adopted, so it is pointless taking Roma children away. This point applies for western societies where the situation is different.
Likewise as I'm sure you know 'Get a job' is a slogan used in the west and is not used by Serbians. The slogan is intended for the homeless / unemployed in western socities and the anger is due to these homeless apparantly being in receipt of certain social benefits. As we know the Roma do not qualify for these benefits in Serbia. Of course the real reason why people in western socieities use dumb slogans like that is because they feel residual guilt about people poorer than themselves, but choose to express that guilt through anger.
Lastly the kind of rubbish that 'they' whoever 'they' are, earn more in a day than others do in a month is something else I heard only in the west. I can't help that fact, just my own experience.
I don't wish to perpetuate animosity between anybody, it does not interest me. However, I strongly believe that these attitudes are not held in Serbia. That is not to say there is not discrimination against Roma in Serbia, there is.
But to return to topic, the fact that we are in this situation was Djilas' fault. This guy is meant to understand the media and politics and yet he thought he could demolish the encampment without any headlines, then thought he could move the Roma on quietly. Very foolish. There might have been a chance to rehouse the Roma on the quiet, but he blew that.
He has created an even bigger problem for himself. It will be impossible to demolish any more encampments, as having read the headlines, people will try to stop the Roma moving into their area. I won't accuse them of using western attitudes, although NIMBY (look it up if you don't know it) does not have a Serbian acronymn equivalent.
By the way I'd be quite happy if those 50 roma were given a place in my opstina, although I think when you get to the thousands you have to think about spreading out rehousing in different areas.
pre 15 godina
Goran one thing you will come to understand is that being a westerner is not to oppose wetern policies, it is to adopt a certian mind set in line with certain cultural values.
You are using western parameters to pose questions such as why doesn't the child services department step in, like in Australia? Do you think that this country has a tenth of the budget that Australia has for this department? How many childrens homes are there in Serbia? Stop thinking like a westerner, the situation in Serbia is different. And no you can't compare aboriginies (cultural reference) to Roma, the Roma have a more disadvantaged position.
As far as bus tickets are concerned its not at all uncommon for Roma to travel without paying (please don't complain about that as well).
First off begging, do you think that all gypsies beg? Or to get down to it what percentage? We are then talking about some gypsies, not most or even half of them. Have you ever watched gypsies collecting cardboard? How much money do you think they make per day from this? What about gypsies employed as trashmen? How much do you think they receive, or roadsweepers, or toilet attenders, or perhaps at the market. Do you think they are in poverty? Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you see gypsy beggars that they are all beggars. How about watching the road cleaners for an hour? How about watching Roma music players for an hour outside your building? When there are 10 of them in a band and they average about 1000-2000 dinars an hour. That I have seen, in fact it happens almost on every slava / Saturday morning outside my building and I can watch from my balcony.
Ok for arguments sake lets say that in its possible to make 2,000 dinars per day begging. It might be possible to get more in high season and less when people are staying at home / no tourists. And lets not forget about the fact that nobody has money to give at the moment. That makes 24,000 dinars per month, well below the average wage. Nowhere near making more in a day than the average citizen makes in a month, quite the opposite.
Perhaps gypsies don't have access to running water. That is why they don't wash. (I can't say that about the crusty old man standing next to you in the bus, that really is habit). Check the statistic in UN reports, checked with data from local NGO'S. I've been in gyspy settlements myself and can confirm lack of running water. Again you are using Australia as a cultrual reference, where people have access to running water.
Yeah people (Serbian citizens) hang in the centre, but many will only buy one coffee. You got to understand that jobs are not out there. Its not a question of those people stop being lazy hanging in cafes. What would you have them do? Sit at home and adopt the western style depression? Culturally, Serbs would rather externalise than internalise. This is true on many levels and is probably more healthy for said individual, even if that person might annoy the rest of us.
No, Goran, you are thinking like a westerner in terms of cultural values, its pretty clear. Thats ok, but you have to understand that there are reasons why people (Roma and Serbs) behave differently. Its not just habit or pride, there are 'real' reasons too.
pre 15 godina
Russian federation - best way to go.
(Goran., 6 April 2009 15:02)
Maybe one day in the future. So far I am not very optimistic.
http://tinyurl.com/cdy6f2
Scary isn't it? Lermontov wrote it in 1830.
pre 15 godina
Goran, how having a job can alter one's ethnicity or race is beyond me. A gypsy / Roma is a gypsy / Roma, whether he is a millionaire, or living in a cardboard box. Just like Miskovic is a Serb, or the drunk in a park in Novi Sad is a Serb (provided he is a Serb).
And I'm telling you that the social services have neither the money or the inclination to take away children from the Roma. Its dubious in the beginning to impose different cultural values upon people that choose to live this way, never mind the human rights aspect or the right of parents to decide whats best for their children. In any case there are not enough homes. Who will pay for them? You who gets pissed at beggars would be happy to pay for an increase in tax for the social services budget?
But why should they work at bus stations when they are working as garbage collectors? Gypsys do work as cleaners, my girlfriends mother hires a gypsy to clean her house. How many jobs are there at bus stations exactly? Would you sack the Serbs working there now?
And of course you worked a number of different jobs. You were white and lived in Australia. You really don't have much of an idea about what it is to be a Roma. You imagine yourself in a situation as what you would do without a job. How about imagining first of all how it is to be a gypsy and then imagining trying to find a job.
Yes the roads are a joke.
Most towns don't have a decent sewage system, yes. In fact I'll agree with most of your observations, but with one proviso. To create the kind of country you are talking about costs BILLIONS of euros. Of course I support such a drive, but hey its not realistic. I'm not defeatist, I'd be ready to begin work on a radical (national) economic programme tomorrow, but I know who these people are that are governing us. Bad as they are, the opposition are even worse.
And I'm afraid it would not go away if the public took a stand. Thats a fantasy, a nice fantasy, but still a fantasy.
No Goran I think you are ok, but you have to dig deeper and get more experience. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country you want Serbia to be is a rich country, which it is not.
pre 15 godina
Bganon, it’s not what you do; it’s the fact that you make the most of it and you don’t give up. It’s what people do to pull through that defines their character. A person with a job, regardless of what kind, has determination and pride and can make it anywhere. One’s worth cannot be defined by one’s wealth. It doesn’t matter whether you work as a cleaner or an attendant and what not, rather, as long as you don’t give up.
And why don’t people do anything to change this? Why doesn’t this government crack down on the corruption? The government doesn’t have money to fund social services, none the less; it has the money to pay 100,000dinars + expenses monthly, to the 300+ ministers and the alike. Mind you, I cannot for the life of me believe the people within the political parties…a parliament session here is more closely related to a barn yard free-for-all. Those politicians sit there, reading newspapers, talking on their mobiles, talking to one another, walking around the room; all whilst arguments of critical importance are being presented. I’m sorry, but what in the hell went wrong there? Oh not to mention the government forking out $900,000 for the miladin kovacevic case… pretty odd that the American government would impose sanctions upon Serbia all because of a basketball player beating someone up….those kinds of things happen every day… why is miladin so important? A bit obvious that he was involved in something a lot deeper than basketball.
Cultural values? I would never have thought that any parent would take a child out onto the streets in the middle of winter to beg. Those people are not parents, not even animals would do that. Not to mention the fact that most of those people piss the money away on alcohol and drugs. Who will pay for the homes? The same people who recently invested millions into a road through Beograd that was meant to have been completed 10 years ago, and till this day it is still not completed. Those politicians who sold off some of the biggest abattoirs in the whole of the Balkans to EU companies should be forced to. Those politicians who closed down public wine cellars and force the importation of French wine which is 4 times more expensive…regardless of the fact that Serbia sits on the 43rd parallel, as does France, and Serbia has more fertile soil. The same government that allows the plantation and sale of hybrid plants [genetically altered], and all of the companies behind the plants being linked to companies in France, the UK and Germany. (Vojvodina region primarily). I get pissed at beggars who take their children out and fake injury to jib off hardworking people. The government should take them off the street. But your right, who will?
A gypsy that begs should work anywhere, regardless of the type of work. If the rest of the people can do it, what makes them so exemptible?
Trust me, as much as you would like to believe Australia is multicultural, it is by far one of the most racist countries in the world. Take a look at the Cronulla riots of 2005. Take a look at the term ‘wog’. Doesn’t matter who you are or what colour you are or anything, you will experience racism. I can imagine myself without a job, and if that were the case I would go and get whatever job I could. Even if the job is walking around the centre of Novi Sad with a sign.
It doesn’t take billions to create that sort of country; people need sewerage lines, clean water and electricity, not roads that run for hundreds of kilometres through desolate wastelands (I.E. the Nevada desert). To create the kind of country I am talking about requires will and hard work. I watched a blind man climb Mount Everest, for me nothing is impossible. But that’s the thing, even you support such a drive, almost everyone does, the only problem is people are afraid of getting shot like Dindic. What is the point of living when all you do is suffer and work your arse off so corrupt politicians can drive around drinking sauvignon? Those politicians wouldn’t have a job if people said no to them. I am a realist, Im an optimist and first and foremost, a human. I don’t do to others what I wouldn’t want done to me. The sad thing is that people let others suffer so they can shower in coloured paper and live a life which at the very last minute makes them realise it was all pointless.
A government exists only because the people allow it to. If people were to say no, what could the government possibly do?
I thank you for your thoughts and great comments, I just hope that people realise that despite the fact that life seems completely purposeless, we only get one. Serbia may not be a poor country, but the kind of country people, like me, want Serbia to be is a country that is worth something and that allows people to live a good life. But for now, I guess I’ll have to keep dreaming…when I finish off my course here, I will become a politician and we shall see what this country can be made into.
All the best =)
pre 15 godina
To Milos, Bganon & Co
If it wasn't for the "gasterbajteri" Serbia's economy would be worse off. We are the ones that still buy serbian goods, we are the ones that send our dollars overseas and we are the ones that spend thousands when we go back on holidays.
A thank you would be sufficient.
The reason Kosovo declared independence is because of "Serbs" like you.
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