Pope "unlikely" to visit Serbia

“It is time to at long last stop with these stories, and with the historical and non-historical myths and what not, related to the NDH, [Ustasha death camp] Jasenovac, etc. People with good will should sit down on both sides and credible historians, and then see where we are,” Rohmes told B92.

Ustasha death camps are not a myth and what "credible" historians are you talking about?
The historians who will say that there were no death camps and Jasenovac is a myth and the Holocaust did not happen?

This is why the Orthodox church should have nothing to do with the Vatican until they come to terms with their past.
To the Albanian posters who think they are so clever, has this answered your questions?
The Vatican has not admitted to their part in hiding the Ustasha criminals after the war no supporting the Catholic church in Croatia in exterminating the Orthodox.

"I don't understand the main objective of the Catholic Pope to visit Serbia? I don't understand either why Serbian Patriarch would oppose. We're all Christians. Could someone explain?"

Hi Dim that is a really good question and I don't know why people seem to be voting against a good question as if it is wrong to ask questions in a discussion. Please let me try to explain why this is so complicated.

The Catholic Church under Pius XII did not represent what we understand as modern catholic Ideals. Pius XII gave men like Ante Pavelic, the Croatian Nazi dictator, private audiences while people were being murdered for refusing forced conversion. At the conclusion of the War, Vatican officials provided Croat Nazi officials new identities and Vatican passports so that they could escape justice. None of these identities was ever exposed or betrayed by the RC and as a result, many Nazi murderers lived freely in the western world.

Now the Serbian Church would like the RC Church to recognize its mistakes, reveal the embarassing truth with respect to its activities, meanwhile the Catholic Church is loathe to put the papacy of Pius XII into disrepute. It does not want to embarass catholicsm with these very unfortunate truths and would much rather go forward and treat this all as water under the bridge.

Unfortunately as a result of this what wash of history to this day in Croatia Kids wear Ustase t shirts and go to Perkovic concerts thinking this is a good catholic and Croatian thing to do.

My thinking is that the Catholic Church should bring forward the truth, renounce the legacy of Pius XII and make amends; if not for the sake of the victims then for the sake of the Catholic young people whos actions do not associate them with all the good of Catholicism, but with some of its darkest moments.

Stay where you are ratzinger,Serbia needs to hermetically shut off itself from the West and turn to Russia and China.
First off all culturally(we are the same pravoslavic race),second of all economically(Central Asia will become the center of the world economy,we have various free trade agreements with that part of the world but our government always iz cozzing up the the Western war criminals.)
Hopefully Nikolic and Kostunica will form the next government,if anything this economic crisis will lead to something positive.

Unless Benedict has the full intention of apologizing for the the Vatican's role in supporting the NDH during wartime, shielding its leaders in escaping, and cannonizing Stepinac, he has no business in Serbia. Best he spend his time trying to find new and more innovative arguments for how contraceptions are a sin.

How cute! Who runs Serbia? -- the government or the Church? Certainly does not sound like a forward thinking EU type country.

“Without the approval of the Church, he doesn’t want to come"

It seems to me that it is the Pope's decision not to come.
It is understandable that the beatification of Stepinac by the Roman Catholic Church in 1998 only intensified the divide between the two churches.

To Alban and dfp, when the pope visited Greece and Romania in the 1990s he asked for permission from the Greek and Romanian Orthodox Churches.

The same would happen if he was to try to make a visit again.

Furthermore. It is a common practice for the pope to seek permission to visit when the pope is travelling to a non-catholic country.

Also. I don't think the church should let him visit. Remember when the Church said he could visit Banja Luka and he beatified and honoured Catholic nuns and priests who actively helped the NDH in massacres.

To #9
Very simple explanation, but when did west ever recognize its mistakes even in recent history much less in WW2? They are always dancing around the truth and at the end, they are pure and rest of the world must be prosecuted. That is reality of situation unfortunately.

" However, in order for him to visit Serbia, the invitation would have to be approved by the Holy Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church. "

Is this the same Serbia that wants to join the EU? Way to go!!!

Can someone please show me where in the Bible it says that a "Pope" should exist who can forgive your sins.

Also, from Wikepedia:
According to a 1998 report issued by the US State Department, the Nazi Croatian treasury was illicitly transferred to the Vatican Bank and other banks after the end of World War II. For its part, the Vatican has repeatedly denied any Franciscan participation in Ustashi crimes or the disappearance of the Croatian Treasury, yet has refused to open its wartime records to substantiate its denial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Bank

I don't understand the main objective of the Catholic Pope to visit Serbia? I don't understand either why Serbian Patriarch would oppose. We're all Christians. Could someone explain?

Please check the facts, before making inflammatory accusations.

Pope Benedict XVI has never visited Bosnia. The one who did was his late predecessor, the Polish-born Pope John Paul II.

During his visit to Banja Luka in 2003, Pope John Paul II announced the beatification of only one individual: Banja Luka native Ivan Merz.

Ivan Merz, a Catholic lay educator, was neither a nun nor a priest, and he had no part in any World War II atrocities (he died in 1928, long before the second world war).

For more, see -
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20030622_merz_en.html

NDH did bad things during that time true, but remember the germans freed croatia from yugoslavia, to us the germans were our saviours, when there policies came into effect, there wasnt much we could do about it, and lets not forget chetniks collaborated with the germans against the partizani so were werent totally the bad guys, all croatia ever wanted was to be free, and in ww2 it came with a heavy price.

Unless Benedict has the full intention of apologizing for the the Vatican's role in supporting the NDH during wartime, shielding its leaders in escaping, and cannonizing Stepinac, he has no business in Serbia. Best he spend his time trying to find new and more innovative arguments for how contraceptions are a sin.
(Mike, 4 April 2009 18:18)

Mike, I couldnt agree more.

As a baptised Irish Catholic I feel deeply ashamed of the Catholic Church's role in supporting the NDH during WW2. The Holy Father should apologise unreservedy to the people of Serbia and all of ex-Yugoslavia who suffered at the horrors of the evil Croatian fascist Ante Pavelic and his henchmen and followers. Despite being Catholic, I never supported Croatia as I find their excessive racist, intolerant nationalism completley incompatable to my own Irish Republican ideology.

In saying that, there are over half a million catholics residing in Serbia and if the Pope wants to reach out to them, well he has to engage with dialogue with the Serbian Orthodox Church. If His Holiness acknowledges the Church's past sins in Yugoslavia than I see there should be no reason why he cannot visit Serbia and experience himself rich culture of Serbia and its many constituent peoples.

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?
(Andy, 4 April 2009 23:49)

Yes Andy, that was a shameful part of our history. In 1939 and during the war we barred Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution to settle here in Ireland while after the war allowing leading Ustasa official Artur Artukovic and Albert Folens (leading Belgian Nazi) to settle in Ireland. I'm not making excuses but you have to remember that Ireland in 1945 was a sectarian, inward looking, oppresive Catholic theocracy which stiffled any freedom of expression both physically and in the soul.

You should read about our film/press censor. Even Monty Python's The Life of Brian was banned here for years as was Playboy, A Clockwork Orange, Last Tango in Paris, Deep Throat and Lady Chatterly's Lover by DH Lawrence.

Its no wonder James Joyce, George Bernard Shaw and Samuel Beckett shrugged their shoulders and hopped on the next ferry to Liverpool.

Jesus said the one with no sin can throw the first stone their were no takers. Everyone here is self righteous. All of the self righteous people ,country's and religions will be seeing how depraved they are and the punishment of the self righteousness. This is what a Holly GOD says from his word to the hypocrites. 20 You speak continually against your brother
and slander your own mother's son.

21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.

22 "Consider this, you who forget God,
or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:

"The Vatican has not admitted to their part in hiding the Ustasha criminals after the war no supporting the Catholic church in Croatia in exterminating the Orthodox.
(Peggy, 4 April 2009 15:56)"

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?

As far as it should be the Serbian Orthodox Church is not a government institution, so it does not have the right to banish anyone from visiting Serbia.

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?
(Andy, 4 April 2009 23:49)

No Andy, I am not looking for an apology from any state, only the Vatican as it represents the whole Catholic religion world wide.
Ireland doesn't represent Catholisism any more than any individual country represents Budhism.

I hope I have answered your question adequately.

" However, in order for him to visit Serbia, the invitation would have to be approved by the Holy Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church. "

Is this the same Serbia that wants to join the EU? Way to go!!!

NDH did bad things during that time true, but remember the germans freed croatia from yugoslavia, to us the germans were our saviours, when there policies came into effect, there wasnt much we could do about it, and lets not forget chetniks collaborated with the germans against the partizani so were werent totally the bad guys, all croatia ever wanted was to be free, and in ww2 it came with a heavy price.

How cute! Who runs Serbia? -- the government or the Church? Certainly does not sound like a forward thinking EU type country.

I don't understand the main objective of the Catholic Pope to visit Serbia? I don't understand either why Serbian Patriarch would oppose. We're all Christians. Could someone explain?

Stay where you are ratzinger,Serbia needs to hermetically shut off itself from the West and turn to Russia and China.
First off all culturally(we are the same pravoslavic race),second of all economically(Central Asia will become the center of the world economy,we have various free trade agreements with that part of the world but our government always iz cozzing up the the Western war criminals.)
Hopefully Nikolic and Kostunica will form the next government,if anything this economic crisis will lead to something positive.

“It is time to at long last stop with these stories, and with the historical and non-historical myths and what not, related to the NDH, [Ustasha death camp] Jasenovac, etc. People with good will should sit down on both sides and credible historians, and then see where we are,” Rohmes told B92.

Ustasha death camps are not a myth and what "credible" historians are you talking about?
The historians who will say that there were no death camps and Jasenovac is a myth and the Holocaust did not happen?

This is why the Orthodox church should have nothing to do with the Vatican until they come to terms with their past.
To the Albanian posters who think they are so clever, has this answered your questions?
The Vatican has not admitted to their part in hiding the Ustasha criminals after the war no supporting the Catholic church in Croatia in exterminating the Orthodox.

Unless Benedict has the full intention of apologizing for the the Vatican's role in supporting the NDH during wartime, shielding its leaders in escaping, and cannonizing Stepinac, he has no business in Serbia. Best he spend his time trying to find new and more innovative arguments for how contraceptions are a sin.

As far as it should be the Serbian Orthodox Church is not a government institution, so it does not have the right to banish anyone from visiting Serbia.

To Alban and dfp, when the pope visited Greece and Romania in the 1990s he asked for permission from the Greek and Romanian Orthodox Churches.

The same would happen if he was to try to make a visit again.

Furthermore. It is a common practice for the pope to seek permission to visit when the pope is travelling to a non-catholic country.

Also. I don't think the church should let him visit. Remember when the Church said he could visit Banja Luka and he beatified and honoured Catholic nuns and priests who actively helped the NDH in massacres.

"The Vatican has not admitted to their part in hiding the Ustasha criminals after the war no supporting the Catholic church in Croatia in exterminating the Orthodox.
(Peggy, 4 April 2009 15:56)"

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?

“Without the approval of the Church, he doesn’t want to come"

It seems to me that it is the Pope's decision not to come.
It is understandable that the beatification of Stepinac by the Roman Catholic Church in 1998 only intensified the divide between the two churches.

Jesus said the one with no sin can throw the first stone their were no takers. Everyone here is self righteous. All of the self righteous people ,country's and religions will be seeing how depraved they are and the punishment of the self righteousness. This is what a Holly GOD says from his word to the hypocrites. 20 You speak continually against your brother
and slander your own mother's son.

21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.

22 "Consider this, you who forget God,
or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:

"I don't understand the main objective of the Catholic Pope to visit Serbia? I don't understand either why Serbian Patriarch would oppose. We're all Christians. Could someone explain?"

Hi Dim that is a really good question and I don't know why people seem to be voting against a good question as if it is wrong to ask questions in a discussion. Please let me try to explain why this is so complicated.

The Catholic Church under Pius XII did not represent what we understand as modern catholic Ideals. Pius XII gave men like Ante Pavelic, the Croatian Nazi dictator, private audiences while people were being murdered for refusing forced conversion. At the conclusion of the War, Vatican officials provided Croat Nazi officials new identities and Vatican passports so that they could escape justice. None of these identities was ever exposed or betrayed by the RC and as a result, many Nazi murderers lived freely in the western world.

Now the Serbian Church would like the RC Church to recognize its mistakes, reveal the embarassing truth with respect to its activities, meanwhile the Catholic Church is loathe to put the papacy of Pius XII into disrepute. It does not want to embarass catholicsm with these very unfortunate truths and would much rather go forward and treat this all as water under the bridge.

Unfortunately as a result of this what wash of history to this day in Croatia Kids wear Ustase t shirts and go to Perkovic concerts thinking this is a good catholic and Croatian thing to do.

My thinking is that the Catholic Church should bring forward the truth, renounce the legacy of Pius XII and make amends; if not for the sake of the victims then for the sake of the Catholic young people whos actions do not associate them with all the good of Catholicism, but with some of its darkest moments.

To #9
Very simple explanation, but when did west ever recognize its mistakes even in recent history much less in WW2? They are always dancing around the truth and at the end, they are pure and rest of the world must be prosecuted. That is reality of situation unfortunately.

Please check the facts, before making inflammatory accusations.

Pope Benedict XVI has never visited Bosnia. The one who did was his late predecessor, the Polish-born Pope John Paul II.

During his visit to Banja Luka in 2003, Pope John Paul II announced the beatification of only one individual: Banja Luka native Ivan Merz.

Ivan Merz, a Catholic lay educator, was neither a nun nor a priest, and he had no part in any World War II atrocities (he died in 1928, long before the second world war).

For more, see -
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20030622_merz_en.html

Can someone please show me where in the Bible it says that a "Pope" should exist who can forgive your sins.

Also, from Wikepedia:
According to a 1998 report issued by the US State Department, the Nazi Croatian treasury was illicitly transferred to the Vatican Bank and other banks after the end of World War II. For its part, the Vatican has repeatedly denied any Franciscan participation in Ustashi crimes or the disappearance of the Croatian Treasury, yet has refused to open its wartime records to substantiate its denial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Bank

Unless Benedict has the full intention of apologizing for the the Vatican's role in supporting the NDH during wartime, shielding its leaders in escaping, and cannonizing Stepinac, he has no business in Serbia. Best he spend his time trying to find new and more innovative arguments for how contraceptions are a sin.
(Mike, 4 April 2009 18:18)

Mike, I couldnt agree more.

As a baptised Irish Catholic I feel deeply ashamed of the Catholic Church's role in supporting the NDH during WW2. The Holy Father should apologise unreservedy to the people of Serbia and all of ex-Yugoslavia who suffered at the horrors of the evil Croatian fascist Ante Pavelic and his henchmen and followers. Despite being Catholic, I never supported Croatia as I find their excessive racist, intolerant nationalism completley incompatable to my own Irish Republican ideology.

In saying that, there are over half a million catholics residing in Serbia and if the Pope wants to reach out to them, well he has to engage with dialogue with the Serbian Orthodox Church. If His Holiness acknowledges the Church's past sins in Yugoslavia than I see there should be no reason why he cannot visit Serbia and experience himself rich culture of Serbia and its many constituent peoples.

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?
(Andy, 4 April 2009 23:49)

Yes Andy, that was a shameful part of our history. In 1939 and during the war we barred Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution to settle here in Ireland while after the war allowing leading Ustasa official Artur Artukovic and Albert Folens (leading Belgian Nazi) to settle in Ireland. I'm not making excuses but you have to remember that Ireland in 1945 was a sectarian, inward looking, oppresive Catholic theocracy which stiffled any freedom of expression both physically and in the soul.

You should read about our film/press censor. Even Monty Python's The Life of Brian was banned here for years as was Playboy, A Clockwork Orange, Last Tango in Paris, Deep Throat and Lady Chatterly's Lover by DH Lawrence.

Its no wonder James Joyce, George Bernard Shaw and Samuel Beckett shrugged their shoulders and hopped on the next ferry to Liverpool.

You seem to have many Irish posters on here who support serbia. Do you demand the same apology from that catholic state who gave sanctuary to the croatian war criminals?
(Andy, 4 April 2009 23:49)

No Andy, I am not looking for an apology from any state, only the Vatican as it represents the whole Catholic religion world wide.
Ireland doesn't represent Catholisism any more than any individual country represents Budhism.

I hope I have answered your question adequately.