Protests against removal of Roma community

The people sending these bulldozers are the same ones expecting that K-Serbs be given free electricity.
I wonder what Kate would have to say about 'basic human rights' or bishop with his lectures on US tent cities.

I am not happy that the Roma are considered an eyesore by organisers of the Student Games. Probably the Roma won't be happy, but city authorities should bend over backwards to accomodate their demands on alternative accomodation. I say this because its clear that in western eyes visitors would think they have landed in a poor African state if they see the encampment. It looks terrible that any state could allow its people to live like that. Any compromise would be welcome. Let me just say that I want to see a long term solution for this issue, not to just move the Roma out of the way temporarily.

In Serbia there is a certain honesty about the relationship with the Roma not seen in neighbouring countries. That can be seen in the fact that roma music is almost interchangable with folk music (not its turbo cousin, but pre folk ie lepa brena). Serbs and Roma lived almost side by side in Kosovo and in other parts of Serbia.

For sure the Roma do not receive the rights that other Serbian citizens do but it is wrong to think that they are hated in Serbia.

By the way I would support any minority that is facing repression, discrimination or similar to have free electricity. It is not an ideal situation but until those people receive the rights that Kosovo Albanians in Kosovo have, they cannot be treated in the same way. Of course some kind of compromise should be found, involving the Serbian government if necessary.

village bey the beginning of your comment almost suggests that what we have between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo is a zero sum game. Lets not confuse how many Albanian / Serbs see it, in zero sum terms. I say it doesn't matter how its seen by either party, it only matters that fairness is applied. How am I supposed to support the fact that some families that have lost their jobs, as a direct result of Kosovo independence and (declaration or not) must pay for electicity to the new state. The same state that took their means to pay away. Its not right. Trust me I would not be happy if the situation was reversed and the Serbs had the upper hand.

You mentioned some kind of theory of ideas which I appreciate, but lets look at the reality, bringing us back to topic. The Roma in encampments in Belgrade, much of the electricity they use is stolen. (I remember somebody made a nasty comment about this) Do you really think that bothers me? I'm probably a minority, but I'm GLAD they do this. They are at the bottom of the pile, they were the victims (laying aside our own victims) of OUR wars - not to mention WW2. Let them have free electicity. And I must add here that many don't have electricity. You know this week a taxi driver was telling me that he saw a Roma make a traffic violation. And that he reported it to the police but the policemen said they were instructed to do nothing in such cases but would not explain why. It was because the Roma guy does not have papers. Yeah, its bad that minor crimes like that by Roma will not be punished and yeah we should all be treated the same. But hey, this guy is a Roma, he doesn't have papers, meaning he doesn't even have the right to free medical care every other citizen of Serbia has... I'll stop because you see where I'm going with this.

What you said on Serbian thinking can also be applied to Albanian thinking. But that isn't all Albanians or all Serbs. Thinking will change over time.

I totally agree with bganon.
What gets me is that Albanians on this site have nerve to criticize Serbian authorities on human rights. When they are the once that put these people in this predicament. Have any of you thought that they should be simply allowed to go beck home. To “Kosova.” To the newest worlds democracy where everybody lives in total freedom and harmony.

“Enver Kovači, president of the Association of Displaced Roma from Kosovo, told B92 that these Roma families had nowhere to go”.
Roma were ushered towards Yuri Gagarin Street not without purpose? MUP are cleverer than people give them credit for. This time they were trying to answer Mr Enver’s question with a riddle,,, and the only clue given was the same street name.
It might have been worse; MUP might have directed these unfortunate souls towards "Albanska Ulica".

Dear Bganon
As the old saying goes “any oppressed minority won’t stop until it converts the majority”, that’s stands to logic, that’s how any emancipatory project starts.
With that in mind I am ready to be converted by the plight of every Roma, Serb or turban wearing Fakir.
Your post nonetheless confuses a legitimate fight for the same right with one for extra rights (and i do not mean cultural rights, they are enshrined as basic rights).
You cannot have substitutes or extra trimmings based on a certain categorisation or subdivision. If we go down that route, then who we’ll be able to equate the so-called extras in law or in any other comparative system of justice for that matter.
The problem with Serbian thinking is that they perceive these excusive right’s substitutes as a priori rights. That’s not a fight for equality but for exclusivity.
And no, you can’t have endless free electricity only because you are a Serb, Roma or whatever.

Let me just add one more thing. We have to remember that Serbia has the highest refugee and displaced persons total in Europe.

Its not just the Roma who are living on or below the poverty line. Thus its not so simple as to think that the situation of Kosovo Roma will have been solved. God knows the situation of Croatian Serbs in Serbia hasn't been solved and its closer to two decades than one for them.

As the old saying goes “any oppressed minority won’t stop until it converts the majority”...
village-bey

Let me guess: you are refering to the Serb minority and the Albanian majority in Kosovo? There are more minorities in Serbia then any other former Balkan country. In Republika Srpska muslims live side by side with Serbs without any complaints. These romas will get new homes and better living conditions eventually however the expelled Serbs from Kosovo won't.

Benny that is all very well, but it is not reality is it?

What would you do, send squads of policemen into roma encampments to cut their electricity? Would you cut their water supply? (those that have running water) Its ridiculous and so 'straight' to say that they are 'stealing', and to be upset about that. From my perspective they are not stealing because I'm happy to pay a few dinars more on my bills to help the poorest in society.

OK so the Roma should be rehoused in decent accomodation. Excuse me but have you pinched yourself lately? Do you know that we are not living in a rich part of the world - ie who will pay for that?

Fantastic, lets bring through some laws that will solve the problem! Except of course those laws will not be implemented due to lack of money.

Its fine to talk about the theory about what should happen but thats a mile away from the reality. But yes in this concrete case the Roma should have been provided with decent alternative accomodation, although destroying people's homes like this leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth.

I agree with what you say generally about affirmative action. But with regard to Kosovo I can't really see how this and a whole multitude of issues can be solved, until a final negotiation settlement is achieved between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

bgannon, from all the Serbian posters here, you try to be the most objective, but I do not agree with your last statement that it is ok to steal.

You cannot have a country where laws are not respected. You cannot also have some sort of functioning democracy where the state makes extra special accommodations for only one minority group.

The best way is for the political leaders to set a policy that states "All men regardless of minority, ethnicity status, have the same rights" and enforce those laws to the maximum.

The Romas perhas have it even worse in Kosovo, because the majority of the extra special rights are right now reserved only for the Serbs. This does not work as well.

Obviously these people need to be helped but not just because they belong to a certain ethnicity. The state should have laws and policies for those that live in poverty. There should be some sort of subsidized apartments for those of low income whereby those in poverty either live rent free or pay a very small rent like here in the states. And before their homes are bulldozed the state should make sure that these people have already moved into these subsidized apartments.
The only exception where a government could make a minority based law would be an effort to fight discrimination. Because of the extreme discrimination towards Romas, there should perhaps be some Affirmative Action law so that they could get some jobs, because let's face it, nobody in the Balkans truly employs Romas. This same law could be applied to minorities in Kosovo, thereby securing that government jobs etc are also filled with Serbs, Romas etc, according to their population percentage. This could easily be done, but I understand that it will take some time at least for the Serbs to fully integrate into the Kosovo state, but when they do, they will have the money to actually pay the electricity bill and walk a little taller, because most people truly want to earn their living and not get hand-outs forever if given the chance.

Once again we see how the government treats the destitute and homeless.This is not a Roma or race issue, this is a human rights issue and nobody has the right to deprive these people of a safe and dry place to live

As an Orthodox christian I would remind everyone that the He said Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matt. 25:35-40).

Surely it would have been more humane to have had new accommodation arrange before the bulldozers moved in? Only last week we read an article about newly refurbished parliament building....I am sure those people were accommodated handsomely while their cushioned seats and deep pile carpets were being fitted. But sure that's politics. Oh yeah...it's been ten long years since these poor people have been kicked out of Kosovo....surely sufficient time to find them accommodation. But that's politics for you.

you have to respect the law, some people say. here is a quote that should provide them with some food for thought.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France, French novelist (1844 - 1924)

The people sending these bulldozers are the same ones expecting that K-Serbs be given free electricity.
I wonder what Kate would have to say about 'basic human rights' or bishop with his lectures on US tent cities.

As the old saying goes “any oppressed minority won’t stop until it converts the majority”...
village-bey

Let me guess: you are refering to the Serb minority and the Albanian majority in Kosovo? There are more minorities in Serbia then any other former Balkan country. In Republika Srpska muslims live side by side with Serbs without any complaints. These romas will get new homes and better living conditions eventually however the expelled Serbs from Kosovo won't.

Dear Bganon
As the old saying goes “any oppressed minority won’t stop until it converts the majority”, that’s stands to logic, that’s how any emancipatory project starts.
With that in mind I am ready to be converted by the plight of every Roma, Serb or turban wearing Fakir.
Your post nonetheless confuses a legitimate fight for the same right with one for extra rights (and i do not mean cultural rights, they are enshrined as basic rights).
You cannot have substitutes or extra trimmings based on a certain categorisation or subdivision. If we go down that route, then who we’ll be able to equate the so-called extras in law or in any other comparative system of justice for that matter.
The problem with Serbian thinking is that they perceive these excusive right’s substitutes as a priori rights. That’s not a fight for equality but for exclusivity.
And no, you can’t have endless free electricity only because you are a Serb, Roma or whatever.

“Enver Kovači, president of the Association of Displaced Roma from Kosovo, told B92 that these Roma families had nowhere to go”.
Roma were ushered towards Yuri Gagarin Street not without purpose? MUP are cleverer than people give them credit for. This time they were trying to answer Mr Enver’s question with a riddle,,, and the only clue given was the same street name.
It might have been worse; MUP might have directed these unfortunate souls towards "Albanska Ulica".

I am not happy that the Roma are considered an eyesore by organisers of the Student Games. Probably the Roma won't be happy, but city authorities should bend over backwards to accomodate their demands on alternative accomodation. I say this because its clear that in western eyes visitors would think they have landed in a poor African state if they see the encampment. It looks terrible that any state could allow its people to live like that. Any compromise would be welcome. Let me just say that I want to see a long term solution for this issue, not to just move the Roma out of the way temporarily.

In Serbia there is a certain honesty about the relationship with the Roma not seen in neighbouring countries. That can be seen in the fact that roma music is almost interchangable with folk music (not its turbo cousin, but pre folk ie lepa brena). Serbs and Roma lived almost side by side in Kosovo and in other parts of Serbia.

For sure the Roma do not receive the rights that other Serbian citizens do but it is wrong to think that they are hated in Serbia.

By the way I would support any minority that is facing repression, discrimination or similar to have free electricity. It is not an ideal situation but until those people receive the rights that Kosovo Albanians in Kosovo have, they cannot be treated in the same way. Of course some kind of compromise should be found, involving the Serbian government if necessary.

I totally agree with bganon.
What gets me is that Albanians on this site have nerve to criticize Serbian authorities on human rights. When they are the once that put these people in this predicament. Have any of you thought that they should be simply allowed to go beck home. To “Kosova.” To the newest worlds democracy where everybody lives in total freedom and harmony.

bgannon, from all the Serbian posters here, you try to be the most objective, but I do not agree with your last statement that it is ok to steal.

You cannot have a country where laws are not respected. You cannot also have some sort of functioning democracy where the state makes extra special accommodations for only one minority group.

The best way is for the political leaders to set a policy that states "All men regardless of minority, ethnicity status, have the same rights" and enforce those laws to the maximum.

The Romas perhas have it even worse in Kosovo, because the majority of the extra special rights are right now reserved only for the Serbs. This does not work as well.

Obviously these people need to be helped but not just because they belong to a certain ethnicity. The state should have laws and policies for those that live in poverty. There should be some sort of subsidized apartments for those of low income whereby those in poverty either live rent free or pay a very small rent like here in the states. And before their homes are bulldozed the state should make sure that these people have already moved into these subsidized apartments.
The only exception where a government could make a minority based law would be an effort to fight discrimination. Because of the extreme discrimination towards Romas, there should perhaps be some Affirmative Action law so that they could get some jobs, because let's face it, nobody in the Balkans truly employs Romas. This same law could be applied to minorities in Kosovo, thereby securing that government jobs etc are also filled with Serbs, Romas etc, according to their population percentage. This could easily be done, but I understand that it will take some time at least for the Serbs to fully integrate into the Kosovo state, but when they do, they will have the money to actually pay the electricity bill and walk a little taller, because most people truly want to earn their living and not get hand-outs forever if given the chance.

Benny that is all very well, but it is not reality is it?

What would you do, send squads of policemen into roma encampments to cut their electricity? Would you cut their water supply? (those that have running water) Its ridiculous and so 'straight' to say that they are 'stealing', and to be upset about that. From my perspective they are not stealing because I'm happy to pay a few dinars more on my bills to help the poorest in society.

OK so the Roma should be rehoused in decent accomodation. Excuse me but have you pinched yourself lately? Do you know that we are not living in a rich part of the world - ie who will pay for that?

Fantastic, lets bring through some laws that will solve the problem! Except of course those laws will not be implemented due to lack of money.

Its fine to talk about the theory about what should happen but thats a mile away from the reality. But yes in this concrete case the Roma should have been provided with decent alternative accomodation, although destroying people's homes like this leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth.

I agree with what you say generally about affirmative action. But with regard to Kosovo I can't really see how this and a whole multitude of issues can be solved, until a final negotiation settlement is achieved between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo.

village bey the beginning of your comment almost suggests that what we have between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo is a zero sum game. Lets not confuse how many Albanian / Serbs see it, in zero sum terms. I say it doesn't matter how its seen by either party, it only matters that fairness is applied. How am I supposed to support the fact that some families that have lost their jobs, as a direct result of Kosovo independence and (declaration or not) must pay for electicity to the new state. The same state that took their means to pay away. Its not right. Trust me I would not be happy if the situation was reversed and the Serbs had the upper hand.

You mentioned some kind of theory of ideas which I appreciate, but lets look at the reality, bringing us back to topic. The Roma in encampments in Belgrade, much of the electricity they use is stolen. (I remember somebody made a nasty comment about this) Do you really think that bothers me? I'm probably a minority, but I'm GLAD they do this. They are at the bottom of the pile, they were the victims (laying aside our own victims) of OUR wars - not to mention WW2. Let them have free electicity. And I must add here that many don't have electricity. You know this week a taxi driver was telling me that he saw a Roma make a traffic violation. And that he reported it to the police but the policemen said they were instructed to do nothing in such cases but would not explain why. It was because the Roma guy does not have papers. Yeah, its bad that minor crimes like that by Roma will not be punished and yeah we should all be treated the same. But hey, this guy is a Roma, he doesn't have papers, meaning he doesn't even have the right to free medical care every other citizen of Serbia has... I'll stop because you see where I'm going with this.

What you said on Serbian thinking can also be applied to Albanian thinking. But that isn't all Albanians or all Serbs. Thinking will change over time.

Once again we see how the government treats the destitute and homeless.This is not a Roma or race issue, this is a human rights issue and nobody has the right to deprive these people of a safe and dry place to live

As an Orthodox christian I would remind everyone that the He said Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matt. 25:35-40).

Surely it would have been more humane to have had new accommodation arrange before the bulldozers moved in? Only last week we read an article about newly refurbished parliament building....I am sure those people were accommodated handsomely while their cushioned seats and deep pile carpets were being fitted. But sure that's politics. Oh yeah...it's been ten long years since these poor people have been kicked out of Kosovo....surely sufficient time to find them accommodation. But that's politics for you.

Let me just add one more thing. We have to remember that Serbia has the highest refugee and displaced persons total in Europe.

Its not just the Roma who are living on or below the poverty line. Thus its not so simple as to think that the situation of Kosovo Roma will have been solved. God knows the situation of Croatian Serbs in Serbia hasn't been solved and its closer to two decades than one for them.

you have to respect the law, some people say. here is a quote that should provide them with some food for thought.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
Anatole France, French novelist (1844 - 1924)