Macedonian school has "ethnic class schedule"

Amantia,

No need to re-invent the history. Show me pre-medieval remains proving "Kosova" being Albanian, Daco-Romanian finds in Transylvania or Hellenic-Macedonians being Slavs. It's all re-manufactured history serving political purpose.

Macedonians were Hellenes, Kosovo is "Field of Blackbirds", Struga is "Ship", Dacians / Illyrians / Thracians were native people living mostly in mountains and to some degree related. They lived there long enough, but their lifestyle reflected the conditions they lived under (mountains). The connection of Albanians or Romanians to Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians is certain, but to what tribes in particular is not known. They should not claim to be descendants of all Illyrians/Dacians/Thracians because these were simply to diverse. There is even an interesting theory about Vlachian(Romanian)/Albanian kinship. Looking at the facial features of people and looking at their traditional costume it seems to make some sense.

Ataman,

what you write, we dont understand anything..

maybe you want to prove your theory only to serbs i guess!??..

since you know we connot read or understand russian or slavic lanaguage..

anyway it only proves that who fyrom, serbs and other slavs came from... russia???

you and only slavs can understand it since you came, became majority once upon a time, and stole and changed our lands and names.. but that time is over, and now majority is Albanians in those lands you pretend.. history is on our side from now one.. and will be in centuries to come..

to the fyromians we say bad for them, that they dont want to study with Albanians and Albanian language.. one day they will need it most..
with this 'family' economy we are the only hope for them to have a job in future.

It seems that albanians can not get along with anyone, can they?

"струга" means "ship" in medieval Russian. I have a feeling, that community is close to some patch of water because in Albanian the name of the community is "Komuna ë Strugës" and as it was already proven, Russian language has many borrowings from Albanian. :-P

Like that certain black bird, in "mainstream" Russian being called "чёрный дрозд", but in southern Russian villages also being called "кос" like in Bulgarian/Macedonian or Serbo/Croatian - a clear proof, all are originating from Albanian "Kosova" of course, right? :-P

I write all this because most Albanian-spelled names in FYROM + Serbia show clear Slavonic origin. In other places (Transylvania) most Romanian spellings have no meaning in Romanian language, they are distorted Hungarian spellings. Very similar is in most of Slovakia.

I want to see a single medieval building of Slovakian origin in Kosice, a single medieval building of Romanian origin in Sighisoara or Hunedoara, a single medieval pre-ottoman building of Albanian origin in Struga or Tetova or Prishtina. It's all stolen land, ultimately.

Amantia

"anyway it only proves that who fyrom, serbs and other slavs came from... russia???"

What an ignorant comment. All Slavs can understand some Russian because it is a language related to other Slavic languages. How does this mean the Slavs originate from there? If an Icelander understands German, does that mean all Icelanders come from Germany? No, they speak a related language. Slavs originate from South-Eastern Poland/North-Western Ukraine. And no, not all Slavs can read the cyrillic alphabet. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats and Slovenes use the Latin alphabet, not cyrillic.

BTW the only people living in Europe that can be said to come from today's Russia are Finns, Estonians, Hungarians (from the Urals), Tartars (Crimean and Gaugaz included) and arguably those people in Europe that have Scythian, Sarmatian or Alan descent (well, from around the Eastern parts of the Black Sea anyway, which is Russian).

"you and only slavs can understand it since you came, became majority once upon a time, and stole and changed our lands and names.."

You obviously know very little about European history. All major European tribes (Germanic, Slavic, Romanic and Celtic) migrated, settled, assimilated and influenced neighbouring, smaller tribes in Europe.

Explain Celtic settlements as far as Portugal, Balkans, Eastern Europe and Turkey? Explain Germanic settlements in Northern Italy, the Baltics, Romania and even Russia? Explain Roman settlements as far the the Caucasus, Middle East, Scotland and Africa? Why not criticize these tribes for their influence on the regions they once settled in? Slavs were just one of these powerful tribes and the Albanians were one of the few minor European tribes touched by foreign influence (Slavic, Greek and Turkish). Get over it, it's not my fault the Albanians were not a power at any time in Europe's history.

One thing for any Greek reading my earlier post, please forgive me for omitting the great Greek expansions, settlements and influences as far as North Africa, the Near East, Central Asia and even India!

The Albanians were starting huge mass fights with the Macedonians. The Albanians cause violence and trouble wherever they go.

They are also raping their way through Italy. The Italians have arrest 150 Albanians in recent years for rape. They are so fed up with it that the Italian minister is calling for chemical castration:

Italian minister calls for rapists to be castrated

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5745281.ece

No need to re-invent the history. Show me pre-medieval remains proving "Kosova" being Albanian, Daco-Romanian finds in Transylvania or Hellenic-Macedonians being Slavs. It's all re-manufactured history serving political purpose.

Macedonians were Hellenes.

Attaman

I couldn't have said it better myself.Well done.Hellenic Macedonian history is written everywhere.Every Macedonian inscription on coins or artifacts is writen in Greek.

Why not have signs for water fountains or bathrooms that say Macedonians Only/ Albanians Only. Sound familiar.

Why is there a need to build an Albanian school in the first place for "just Albanians". This is called discrimination! You can not make a school for one class of people! What is wrong with these people?

Macedonia should learn something from US history and the history of their neighbor in Serbia. This will only allow Albanians to create another "state" in the Balkans.

I ask you something,how come your cousins don't speak Albanian or better say Thraco/Ilyrian?? according to ur theory the should right?
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

We have a more obscure language at our disposal. The one which is said to be related to Sumerian. At last, our swearwords are mostly of Sumerian origin, I did notice it from known Sumer vocabularies. Why is that - beats me, but true. The structure and grammar of the languages is identical, too. Not a big deal because the structure of Estonian, Finnish, Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese is also close. These are called "agglutinative" languages and very strange for outsiders.

The Mesopotamian origin could make some sense because according some theories one (and the main) of the ten tribes ("Megere" or "Megyer") is from Caspian/Caucasian region, not from Ural. But this is all heavily disputed.


I never heard in any writen history that an invader learned the victims language
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

I wonder, why? There were pretty famous cases. I have four, all with some local significance.

1) Disputed, but likely. Hunnic/Iranian tribes from Subartu. Besides probably being (see above - it's disputed tough) a place where the Megyer did originate, the name "Subartu" and the "Sabirs" somewhat likely also gave their name to a European country. The Sabir (also called "Serboi" in Greek) overlords quickly mingled with their Slavic subjects... and took the victims language within few generations. The land of Sabirs was roughly where the city of Baku is today. But the Slavs came from the area of what is Bautzen (Germany) today. These Huns first went to the area what is Eastern Germany now, gave the name of their origin to local Slavic population - and took some local tribes to Balkan peninsula during their migration. In that process they learned the victims language and abandoned theirs.

The name of local Slavs in Bautzen area is still "Sorb". Today they speak a more archaic language than their relatives in Balkan, not influenced by Church-Slavonic or Vuk Karadzic.

2) Hunnic/Turkic tribes of Volgan Bulghars. It happened precisely like under 1), but there was no migration from Germany. Turkomans/Huns just came to what is Bulgaria+FYROM now under leadership of Khan Asparukh, took over the leadership of local Slavic population but also took the language of victims.

While 1) is still disputed (not the Sorb part, but where the Huns came from), the 2) is very well documented. See Khan Asparukh. Hence even the names of two neighbor European countries are of Caucasian and Turkic origin, reflecting what happened long ago. But the majority of the population speaks a language somewhat resembling Church-Slavonic, which also had a major influence in Russia. Apropos, Russia.

3) There was Norvegian (Viking) tribe called "Rus", they spoke Germanic language and ruled over a large area populated by Slavonic-speaking tribes. They gave the name to the country, but "in exchange" lost their language.

The names of early Russian dukes was like Ingwar Hrjöriksson (Oleg = Olaf, Waldemar = Vladimir, Olga = Helga, Ingwar = Igor). The custom to have "father's name" in Russian can be probably traced to Viking custom.

So if you do not know, who was Ingwar Hrjöriksson, that's the same person as Игорь Рюрикович (Igor Ryurikovich)

The Albanian comments I do read often about Serbs originating from Russia are completely bogus and show a very high level of ignorance. Serbs (as Slavs) are from Germany (Bautzen area), but with high probability their nobility (as Sabirs) was originally from Caucasus. The name "Bulgaria" is Turkic, their nobility was Turkic (not Ottoman, but Volga-Bulghar). And Russians had a very strong Viking influence.

4) East Roman Empire. Founded by Romans. No dispute, originally the overlords in East Roman Empire spoke Latin. Within few centuries, they took the language of locals. Which wasn't Slavonic or Illyrian.

This (4) also bursts the FYROManiac bubble. At the time Roman overlords swapped the language, the local language was not Slavonic. But at the time Cyrill and Method created the alphabet, the local language in Thessaloniki was Slavonic. The Slavonic dialect of Thessaloniki is the base of Church-Slavonic (which is also to a good degree base of modern Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian, Belarus - liturgy was in that language).
That speaks about large-scale Slavonic invasion somewhere between 3rd and 9th Century (which is confirmed by archeology) and not few thousand years earlier, as FYROManiac history-reengineering claims.

---------------------


and for the medieval building I recomend u at least to google it before u comment on something,we have not only medieval castles but thousands years old ones.
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

Albanians often claim the being descendants of ALL Illyrian tribes. It's like Dutch would claim or Germanic tribes or Slovaks all Slavonic tribes, that is incorrect. But even accepting that - pardon my ignorance - but I am not familiar with many. Please show some pictures.

Where is now Doris Pack with her great ideas,suggestions about having one university in Central Kosovo,having positive interaction between students of different ethnicities,overcoming ethnic
differences in such way? But what is happening in Struga may not be so important for her because Struga is not in Serbian Kosovo, right?
@ Amanita:
"...no nation forgets it's language..."
Now,now, Amanita!Having trouble with both history and linguistics?
Please look into the USA of today. Not only that "nations" forgot their languages if not in the first generation, then in the second one for sure, but most of them forgot their nations as well, happy to exchange old for new.

(Ataman, 16 February 2009 13:43)

You couldn't be more wrong. I study linguistics, and I can for sure tell you that the etymology of those words resides from anywhere besides albanian influence.

We can even locate Proto-Indo-European, more or less confidently, in space and time - to the plains of South Russia in the fourth millenium B.C.

It can be seen that the Albanian language is formed from Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, with only 800 of its own words (However, of those 800, 680 can be traced to Turkish origin).

Take for example the Albanian borrowed word "sheqer" which was borrowed from the word "secer" in Serbian. (Sugar) :)
(And no I'm not trying to anger anyone, I am simply stating what I have read.)

No, this is not some Serbian history book, rather

"Language and Lingusitcs - An Introduction, John Lyons, Cambridge University Press"

Comments posted on this page proves how out of touch people are with the real world. You guys are talking about countries that existed over 1500 years ago and are getting your PHD from wiklipedia.

Get with the program! Did anybody read the article.

the language of a nation shows everything..

basically the Albanian language is unique.. and a survival of an ancient illyrian..

what was the language of Serbs before the arrival of Slavs?? i forgot this doesnt make sense.. since Serbs are slavs and not illyrian who learn the language of Slavs.. and forget their langauge..
basically as you say fyrom is Slav Serbs as well, therefore you cannot claim anything.. sice Serb migrated here.. and now it seems they migrated again back from where they came from.. Russia..

no nation forget its language..

Amantia

"about being ignorat about your eastern european history about Europe.. i totally agree with the western european history about Europe.. "

What exactly do you mean by this, that what I said is some "Eastern European" view that does not coincide with the "Western European" view? There is no difference, I am quoting encyclopedic and academic sources that are universally accepted.

arti and Amantia

"coming form poland or ukraine it doesnt make it any better.. all same.. so NOT originating in balkans, thus no claim.. they should claim poland or ukriane.. but not where all people are Albanians.."

"Peter that shouldn't give the right to anybody to claim what is ours or have a deed over our rights,Albania was divided by force to fullfill our neighbours apettite and thats not the way things should be,so stop supporting the wrong side.
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30) "

Arti and Amantia, I understand what you are saying, but it is not as black and white as you think it is, because both Serbs and Albanians of today cannot be called pure Slavs and pure Illyrians respectively.

Indeed, the Serbs were once a Slavic tribe, but their genetic makeup shows that they are a blend of the original Slavic invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Illyrians). Bulgarians are also a mix of the original Slavic invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Thracians). Romanians are also a mix of the original Roman invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Dacians).

On top of that, there are other genetic haplotypes which might suggest minor mixing on account of Gothic and Celtic invasions.

Compare the average Pole or Ukrainian with the average Serb or Croat. You would be hard pressed to find examples that look of the same stock. We are all Slavs linguistically, but our genetic makeup is quite different, due to the human migration phenomenon.

The language says one thing, genetics say another. Albanians, on the other hand, maintained a unique language, which is said to be descended from Illyrian, but then the faith is that of the Ottomans. This shows that tribes influenced each other, but it does not mean that one tribe can claim to be purely of one descent, while the immediate neighbour is not.

My point is that all Balkan peoples originate in the Balkans, the question only exists, who influenced their language, religion and in some cases, their genetic makeup. You all have common blood in your veins and the Balkans belongs to all of you.

Anyway, I will stop now, I think I have written enough.

about being ignorat about your eastern european history about Europe.. i totally agree with the western european history about Europe..

coming form poland or ukraine it doesnt make it any better.. all same.. so NOT originating in balkans, thus no claim.. they should claim poland or ukriane.. but not where all people are Albanians..

Ataman, lets try and keep the waters clear and not invent false information/history or false historical insignificant names/data...

all your examples are Slavic tribes which as i mentioned before we dont know and never intrested to know who or what happened to who in what time... and about roman empire.. Slavs didnt learn the language of the natives, or latin because they came as invadors in mass invasions. That's why you speak today Slavic and not italian/latin or Albanian/illyrian or old greek.

Albanians are one and unique, thus there is no other nation or people who speak or have same language as us..

Albanian language has been under so many influences but did survive as one..

there is no trace in Serbian or any Slav language of illyrian words.. there is in Albanian..

Illyrian King Bardhyllis, which today in Albanian language means WhiteStar..

Anyway, the dream of ethnic Albania will be reality this year.. sooner rather than....

(Ataman, 16 February 2009 13:43)
How intersting that....I ask you something,how come your cousins don't speak Albanian or better say Thraco/Ilyrian?? according to ur theory the should right? I never heard in any writen history that an invader learned the victims language,and for the medieval building I recomend u at least to google it before u comment on something,we have not only medieval castles but thousands years old ones.

"Get over it, it's not my fault the Albanians were not a power at any time in Europe's history".

(Peter Sudyka, 16 February 2009 18:40)
Peter that shouldn't give the right to anybody to claim what is ours or have a deed over our rights,Albania was divided by force to fullfill our neighbours apettite and thats not the way things should be,so stop supporting the wrong side.

That's why you speak today Slavic and not italian/latin or Albanian/illyrian or old greek.
(Amantia, 17 February 2009 16:03)

I am really saddened, it seems you did not understand many things I wrote. Maybe my fault. Please read again if you are interested.

Ataman,

what you write, we dont understand anything..

maybe you want to prove your theory only to serbs i guess!??..

since you know we connot read or understand russian or slavic lanaguage..

anyway it only proves that who fyrom, serbs and other slavs came from... russia???

you and only slavs can understand it since you came, became majority once upon a time, and stole and changed our lands and names.. but that time is over, and now majority is Albanians in those lands you pretend.. history is on our side from now one.. and will be in centuries to come..

to the fyromians we say bad for them, that they dont want to study with Albanians and Albanian language.. one day they will need it most..
with this 'family' economy we are the only hope for them to have a job in future.

(Ataman, 16 February 2009 13:43)
How intersting that....I ask you something,how come your cousins don't speak Albanian or better say Thraco/Ilyrian?? according to ur theory the should right? I never heard in any writen history that an invader learned the victims language,and for the medieval building I recomend u at least to google it before u comment on something,we have not only medieval castles but thousands years old ones.

"Get over it, it's not my fault the Albanians were not a power at any time in Europe's history".

(Peter Sudyka, 16 February 2009 18:40)
Peter that shouldn't give the right to anybody to claim what is ours or have a deed over our rights,Albania was divided by force to fullfill our neighbours apettite and thats not the way things should be,so stop supporting the wrong side.

about being ignorat about your eastern european history about Europe.. i totally agree with the western european history about Europe..

coming form poland or ukraine it doesnt make it any better.. all same.. so NOT originating in balkans, thus no claim.. they should claim poland or ukriane.. but not where all people are Albanians..

the language of a nation shows everything..

basically the Albanian language is unique.. and a survival of an ancient illyrian..

what was the language of Serbs before the arrival of Slavs?? i forgot this doesnt make sense.. since Serbs are slavs and not illyrian who learn the language of Slavs.. and forget their langauge..
basically as you say fyrom is Slav Serbs as well, therefore you cannot claim anything.. sice Serb migrated here.. and now it seems they migrated again back from where they came from.. Russia..

no nation forget its language..

It seems that albanians can not get along with anyone, can they?

"струга" means "ship" in medieval Russian. I have a feeling, that community is close to some patch of water because in Albanian the name of the community is "Komuna ë Strugës" and as it was already proven, Russian language has many borrowings from Albanian. :-P

Like that certain black bird, in "mainstream" Russian being called "чёрный дрозд", but in southern Russian villages also being called "кос" like in Bulgarian/Macedonian or Serbo/Croatian - a clear proof, all are originating from Albanian "Kosova" of course, right? :-P

I write all this because most Albanian-spelled names in FYROM + Serbia show clear Slavonic origin. In other places (Transylvania) most Romanian spellings have no meaning in Romanian language, they are distorted Hungarian spellings. Very similar is in most of Slovakia.

I want to see a single medieval building of Slovakian origin in Kosice, a single medieval building of Romanian origin in Sighisoara or Hunedoara, a single medieval pre-ottoman building of Albanian origin in Struga or Tetova or Prishtina. It's all stolen land, ultimately.

One thing for any Greek reading my earlier post, please forgive me for omitting the great Greek expansions, settlements and influences as far as North Africa, the Near East, Central Asia and even India!

Amantia,

No need to re-invent the history. Show me pre-medieval remains proving "Kosova" being Albanian, Daco-Romanian finds in Transylvania or Hellenic-Macedonians being Slavs. It's all re-manufactured history serving political purpose.

Macedonians were Hellenes, Kosovo is "Field of Blackbirds", Struga is "Ship", Dacians / Illyrians / Thracians were native people living mostly in mountains and to some degree related. They lived there long enough, but their lifestyle reflected the conditions they lived under (mountains). The connection of Albanians or Romanians to Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians is certain, but to what tribes in particular is not known. They should not claim to be descendants of all Illyrians/Dacians/Thracians because these were simply to diverse. There is even an interesting theory about Vlachian(Romanian)/Albanian kinship. Looking at the facial features of people and looking at their traditional costume it seems to make some sense.

Amantia

"anyway it only proves that who fyrom, serbs and other slavs came from... russia???"

What an ignorant comment. All Slavs can understand some Russian because it is a language related to other Slavic languages. How does this mean the Slavs originate from there? If an Icelander understands German, does that mean all Icelanders come from Germany? No, they speak a related language. Slavs originate from South-Eastern Poland/North-Western Ukraine. And no, not all Slavs can read the cyrillic alphabet. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats and Slovenes use the Latin alphabet, not cyrillic.

BTW the only people living in Europe that can be said to come from today's Russia are Finns, Estonians, Hungarians (from the Urals), Tartars (Crimean and Gaugaz included) and arguably those people in Europe that have Scythian, Sarmatian or Alan descent (well, from around the Eastern parts of the Black Sea anyway, which is Russian).

"you and only slavs can understand it since you came, became majority once upon a time, and stole and changed our lands and names.."

You obviously know very little about European history. All major European tribes (Germanic, Slavic, Romanic and Celtic) migrated, settled, assimilated and influenced neighbouring, smaller tribes in Europe.

Explain Celtic settlements as far as Portugal, Balkans, Eastern Europe and Turkey? Explain Germanic settlements in Northern Italy, the Baltics, Romania and even Russia? Explain Roman settlements as far the the Caucasus, Middle East, Scotland and Africa? Why not criticize these tribes for their influence on the regions they once settled in? Slavs were just one of these powerful tribes and the Albanians were one of the few minor European tribes touched by foreign influence (Slavic, Greek and Turkish). Get over it, it's not my fault the Albanians were not a power at any time in Europe's history.

Ataman, lets try and keep the waters clear and not invent false information/history or false historical insignificant names/data...

all your examples are Slavic tribes which as i mentioned before we dont know and never intrested to know who or what happened to who in what time... and about roman empire.. Slavs didnt learn the language of the natives, or latin because they came as invadors in mass invasions. That's why you speak today Slavic and not italian/latin or Albanian/illyrian or old greek.

Albanians are one and unique, thus there is no other nation or people who speak or have same language as us..

Albanian language has been under so many influences but did survive as one..

there is no trace in Serbian or any Slav language of illyrian words.. there is in Albanian..

Illyrian King Bardhyllis, which today in Albanian language means WhiteStar..

Anyway, the dream of ethnic Albania will be reality this year.. sooner rather than....

The Albanians were starting huge mass fights with the Macedonians. The Albanians cause violence and trouble wherever they go.

They are also raping their way through Italy. The Italians have arrest 150 Albanians in recent years for rape. They are so fed up with it that the Italian minister is calling for chemical castration:

Italian minister calls for rapists to be castrated

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5745281.ece

No need to re-invent the history. Show me pre-medieval remains proving "Kosova" being Albanian, Daco-Romanian finds in Transylvania or Hellenic-Macedonians being Slavs. It's all re-manufactured history serving political purpose.

Macedonians were Hellenes.

Attaman

I couldn't have said it better myself.Well done.Hellenic Macedonian history is written everywhere.Every Macedonian inscription on coins or artifacts is writen in Greek.

Why not have signs for water fountains or bathrooms that say Macedonians Only/ Albanians Only. Sound familiar.

Why is there a need to build an Albanian school in the first place for "just Albanians". This is called discrimination! You can not make a school for one class of people! What is wrong with these people?

Macedonia should learn something from US history and the history of their neighbor in Serbia. This will only allow Albanians to create another "state" in the Balkans.

Where is now Doris Pack with her great ideas,suggestions about having one university in Central Kosovo,having positive interaction between students of different ethnicities,overcoming ethnic
differences in such way? But what is happening in Struga may not be so important for her because Struga is not in Serbian Kosovo, right?
@ Amanita:
"...no nation forgets it's language..."
Now,now, Amanita!Having trouble with both history and linguistics?
Please look into the USA of today. Not only that "nations" forgot their languages if not in the first generation, then in the second one for sure, but most of them forgot their nations as well, happy to exchange old for new.

Comments posted on this page proves how out of touch people are with the real world. You guys are talking about countries that existed over 1500 years ago and are getting your PHD from wiklipedia.

Get with the program! Did anybody read the article.

(Ataman, 16 February 2009 13:43)

You couldn't be more wrong. I study linguistics, and I can for sure tell you that the etymology of those words resides from anywhere besides albanian influence.

We can even locate Proto-Indo-European, more or less confidently, in space and time - to the plains of South Russia in the fourth millenium B.C.

It can be seen that the Albanian language is formed from Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, with only 800 of its own words (However, of those 800, 680 can be traced to Turkish origin).

Take for example the Albanian borrowed word "sheqer" which was borrowed from the word "secer" in Serbian. (Sugar) :)
(And no I'm not trying to anger anyone, I am simply stating what I have read.)

No, this is not some Serbian history book, rather

"Language and Lingusitcs - An Introduction, John Lyons, Cambridge University Press"

I ask you something,how come your cousins don't speak Albanian or better say Thraco/Ilyrian?? according to ur theory the should right?
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

We have a more obscure language at our disposal. The one which is said to be related to Sumerian. At last, our swearwords are mostly of Sumerian origin, I did notice it from known Sumer vocabularies. Why is that - beats me, but true. The structure and grammar of the languages is identical, too. Not a big deal because the structure of Estonian, Finnish, Turkish, Mongolian, Korean, Japanese is also close. These are called "agglutinative" languages and very strange for outsiders.

The Mesopotamian origin could make some sense because according some theories one (and the main) of the ten tribes ("Megere" or "Megyer") is from Caspian/Caucasian region, not from Ural. But this is all heavily disputed.


I never heard in any writen history that an invader learned the victims language
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

I wonder, why? There were pretty famous cases. I have four, all with some local significance.

1) Disputed, but likely. Hunnic/Iranian tribes from Subartu. Besides probably being (see above - it's disputed tough) a place where the Megyer did originate, the name "Subartu" and the "Sabirs" somewhat likely also gave their name to a European country. The Sabir (also called "Serboi" in Greek) overlords quickly mingled with their Slavic subjects... and took the victims language within few generations. The land of Sabirs was roughly where the city of Baku is today. But the Slavs came from the area of what is Bautzen (Germany) today. These Huns first went to the area what is Eastern Germany now, gave the name of their origin to local Slavic population - and took some local tribes to Balkan peninsula during their migration. In that process they learned the victims language and abandoned theirs.

The name of local Slavs in Bautzen area is still "Sorb". Today they speak a more archaic language than their relatives in Balkan, not influenced by Church-Slavonic or Vuk Karadzic.

2) Hunnic/Turkic tribes of Volgan Bulghars. It happened precisely like under 1), but there was no migration from Germany. Turkomans/Huns just came to what is Bulgaria+FYROM now under leadership of Khan Asparukh, took over the leadership of local Slavic population but also took the language of victims.

While 1) is still disputed (not the Sorb part, but where the Huns came from), the 2) is very well documented. See Khan Asparukh. Hence even the names of two neighbor European countries are of Caucasian and Turkic origin, reflecting what happened long ago. But the majority of the population speaks a language somewhat resembling Church-Slavonic, which also had a major influence in Russia. Apropos, Russia.

3) There was Norvegian (Viking) tribe called "Rus", they spoke Germanic language and ruled over a large area populated by Slavonic-speaking tribes. They gave the name to the country, but "in exchange" lost their language.

The names of early Russian dukes was like Ingwar Hrjöriksson (Oleg = Olaf, Waldemar = Vladimir, Olga = Helga, Ingwar = Igor). The custom to have "father's name" in Russian can be probably traced to Viking custom.

So if you do not know, who was Ingwar Hrjöriksson, that's the same person as Игорь Рюрикович (Igor Ryurikovich)

The Albanian comments I do read often about Serbs originating from Russia are completely bogus and show a very high level of ignorance. Serbs (as Slavs) are from Germany (Bautzen area), but with high probability their nobility (as Sabirs) was originally from Caucasus. The name "Bulgaria" is Turkic, their nobility was Turkic (not Ottoman, but Volga-Bulghar). And Russians had a very strong Viking influence.

4) East Roman Empire. Founded by Romans. No dispute, originally the overlords in East Roman Empire spoke Latin. Within few centuries, they took the language of locals. Which wasn't Slavonic or Illyrian.

This (4) also bursts the FYROManiac bubble. At the time Roman overlords swapped the language, the local language was not Slavonic. But at the time Cyrill and Method created the alphabet, the local language in Thessaloniki was Slavonic. The Slavonic dialect of Thessaloniki is the base of Church-Slavonic (which is also to a good degree base of modern Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian, Belarus - liturgy was in that language).
That speaks about large-scale Slavonic invasion somewhere between 3rd and 9th Century (which is confirmed by archeology) and not few thousand years earlier, as FYROManiac history-reengineering claims.

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and for the medieval building I recomend u at least to google it before u comment on something,we have not only medieval castles but thousands years old ones.
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30)

Albanians often claim the being descendants of ALL Illyrian tribes. It's like Dutch would claim or Germanic tribes or Slovaks all Slavonic tribes, that is incorrect. But even accepting that - pardon my ignorance - but I am not familiar with many. Please show some pictures.

Amantia

"about being ignorat about your eastern european history about Europe.. i totally agree with the western european history about Europe.. "

What exactly do you mean by this, that what I said is some "Eastern European" view that does not coincide with the "Western European" view? There is no difference, I am quoting encyclopedic and academic sources that are universally accepted.

arti and Amantia

"coming form poland or ukraine it doesnt make it any better.. all same.. so NOT originating in balkans, thus no claim.. they should claim poland or ukriane.. but not where all people are Albanians.."

"Peter that shouldn't give the right to anybody to claim what is ours or have a deed over our rights,Albania was divided by force to fullfill our neighbours apettite and thats not the way things should be,so stop supporting the wrong side.
(arti, 16 February 2009 23:30) "

Arti and Amantia, I understand what you are saying, but it is not as black and white as you think it is, because both Serbs and Albanians of today cannot be called pure Slavs and pure Illyrians respectively.

Indeed, the Serbs were once a Slavic tribe, but their genetic makeup shows that they are a blend of the original Slavic invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Illyrians). Bulgarians are also a mix of the original Slavic invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Thracians). Romanians are also a mix of the original Roman invaders, AS WELL AS the original Balkan inhabitants (the Dacians).

On top of that, there are other genetic haplotypes which might suggest minor mixing on account of Gothic and Celtic invasions.

Compare the average Pole or Ukrainian with the average Serb or Croat. You would be hard pressed to find examples that look of the same stock. We are all Slavs linguistically, but our genetic makeup is quite different, due to the human migration phenomenon.

The language says one thing, genetics say another. Albanians, on the other hand, maintained a unique language, which is said to be descended from Illyrian, but then the faith is that of the Ottomans. This shows that tribes influenced each other, but it does not mean that one tribe can claim to be purely of one descent, while the immediate neighbour is not.

My point is that all Balkan peoples originate in the Balkans, the question only exists, who influenced their language, religion and in some cases, their genetic makeup. You all have common blood in your veins and the Balkans belongs to all of you.

Anyway, I will stop now, I think I have written enough.

That's why you speak today Slavic and not italian/latin or Albanian/illyrian or old greek.
(Amantia, 17 February 2009 16:03)

I am really saddened, it seems you did not understand many things I wrote. Maybe my fault. Please read again if you are interested.