UK: Kosovo recognition not EU condition

Wake up Tadaic! Wake up Jeremic! Wake up Serbia!

These are the very same people that for 78 days and nights were killing, maiming, and terrorizing our civilians, bombing our schools, hospitals, factories, bridges, poisoning our environment, stole our sacred land and gave it to the narco-mafia that has cleansed most of us and put the rest of us behind barbed wire.

Now they are using psychological tactics to instill in us that we are the evil-doers and not them--- while at the same time humiliating us and tactically killing our spirit like they do in military institutions---so we can be their obidient dogs.

They can take their carrots and sticks and their "done deals" and showe them where the sun never shines---for I would rather die the most horible death that a human mind can conceive, than wed into the family that mercilessly kills my women and children while grinning and giving one another thumbs-up and high-fives.

I have strnog feeling Mr. Ambassador that you have screwed-up and failled "big time" with Serbia. Your biggest mistake was that you've overlooked the fact that we are the people of Dostoevsky, Tolstoi,Ivan Sirko, and Hayduk Veljko ("my head I freely give, but not my region")

"Done Deal" Mr. Ambassador??? Many of us don't think so!!!

More and more signals are coming in stating that Serbia will enter EU without recognizing Kosovo.

Let's face the facts. Countries like Spain and Slovakia will never recognize Kosovo. As they know Kosovo will be a precedent.

It is totally against the interests of the EU to let Serbia wait 20 years. That is the time it will at least take to bring Kosovo (if it would become independent) economically on a EU level.

The result:

Serbia joins EU. Kosovo will stay EU governed. And in that way will also join EU.

Resulting in a Kosovo that is not independent at all. What a sad result. FOR ALL PEOPLE!

“Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states,”

Let the UK and those other 21 criminal EU countries find a way to face the fact that most countries in the world including Russia and China don't recognize that fake illegal independence.
Offcourse serbia don't have to recognize a so called indepentent Kosovo to become EU member.
UK or Ireland also didn't have to do that by recognizing a independent Northern Ireland to become EU member so why would Serbia?

Ron,

strange enough, but I agree with you in all, but the bottom line (and the word "never"; never say never, you know).

But, being the bottom line quite subjective (other people think exactly the opposite) and of no relevance at all, we can easily ignore it.

It is obvious to those that know and understand the mentality of both the Albanians and the Serbs why the West is sinking their peoples tax money into a black hole and so far failing miserably in achieving their most important goals in a time frame which they have predicted. They rely to much on poles and logic instead of thorough research into ones history,customs, and mentality. For example: They need to know that the Albanians will always be loyal to their tribe and their clan first. That means that their justice system, police, army, and other institutions can never be fair or just to the Serbs or other minorities. As far as trying to predict the Serbs next moves by relying on logic, they have another thing coming. Here is what hapend when Kara George summoned his chieftains in conclave to vote on war or peace with the Turks.

One of his wisest counselors spoke, "we most not fight, Black George. We're only a handful against a mighty Turkish army." The Serbian leader took out his pistol and shot down his adviser. "What have you done, Black George? What have you done?" his chieftains cried. "I have killed logic," George replied. By tearing up the pact with Hitler, the Serbs again "killed logic."

Bojan,
Russia always goes for its own interest; it changed its policy toward Kosovo as it strengthened economically but it is not going to start a war to help Serbia. Russia will always be a second rate economic power. China really does not care about the Balkans. Serbia can only count on some countries that are afraid of potential irredentism in their own countries. As for the UN, it has never been a factor of change, and evetually will reflect the reality on the ground.

genc,

But if you are pro-indepedent or not, isn't the situation in which Kosovo is governed by the EU but *NOT* an EU member, a very sad result.

Then we have an EU which consists of let's say 30 nations and one protectorate.

Kosovo will have no voting right. Kosovars can't vote for European elections.

Kosovo would be better off beging part of a democratic Serbia.

By the way: Kosovo still *is* part of Serbia!

"How can you make such a statement. UNSC 1244 was not the first resolution there were 4 prior that tried to stop the atrocities of Serbia against the people of Kosovo. All receiving full support of the UNSC including China and Russia.
Finally an international bombing campaign and the support of all UNSC members to enact 1244. Even China and Russia felt that it was necessary to expel all Serbian forces out of the province and not allow within 25 km of the border and severed all political and economic ties of Serbia and Kosovo. Brought in international forces to prohibit Serbia from interfering.
And most important there is no indication or probability that the UNSC will ever give those rights back to Serbia.
(pss, 14 February 2009 00:59) "

You conveniently forgot that 1244 recognizes Belgrade's sovereignty over Kosovo.

"genc (post #13)

But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?
(genc, 14 February 2009 14:28)"

And if those "Kosovars" north of the Ibar are convinced (as I am very sure they are) thAt they are better off as part of Serbia, you will respect their wishes, right? Or are we talking double standards here?


"genc (post #16)

1. the exception is determined by the fact that Serbia cannot rule Kosovo any longer. The Albanians in Macedonia don't want to separate, as far as things don't change. Those in Serbia are left there for the sake of geopolitcs.


2. Another flaw of your list is that you're turning back to the logic of the state of the nation, while Kosovo has to work as a whole, a state of its citizens. Otherwise it would set a very bad precedent for Europe. The Albanian majority has agreed to it. The Serbian minority and Belgrade haven't."

genc,

1. The Macedonian Albanians may not want to separate (your opinion not mine), but what about the K-Serbs in Kosovo? If you conduct a free and fair poll right now, I can bet you close to 100% of the K-Serbs will reject "Kosova".

2. Isn't this just the very double standards in your views that I referred to in your earlier post #13? While all "Kosovars" (including K-Serbs) are obliged to make the state of Kosovo work in your opinion, you do not however consider this to be the obligation of all Serbians and that some of them (aka K-Albanians) are entitled to breakaway from the state of Serbia, as they did last year.

Of course, maybe you are just following your US masters, they are renowned the world over for their double standards everywhere. That's why the Yankees have hardly any credibility left nowadays.

"Kosovo's independence is a done deal."


That's all I needed to hear about this whole article, just that one sentence. Thank you Britain. Serbia can do as it wishes about the EU, they can enter this year for all we care, but it'll be without Kosovo.

Kosovo would be better off being a part of democratic Serbia.
Ron

How can you make such a statement. UNSC 1244 was not the first resolution there were 4 prior that tried to stop the atrocities of Serbia against the people of Kosovo. All receiving full support of the UNSC including China and Russia.
Finally an international bombing campaign and the support of all UNSC members to enact 1244. Even China and Russia felt that it was necessary to expel all Serbian forces out of the province and not allow within 25 km of the border and severed all political and economic ties of Serbia and Kosovo. Brought in international forces to prohibit Serbia from interfering.
And most important there is no indication or probability that the UNSC will ever give those rights back to Serbia.

“Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states,” he said.

So guys nobody is going to ask you to recognize. You are going to recognize Kosovo voluntarily in order to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states

ginc,

"But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?"

Does the same apply to:

Serbs in Northern Kosovo?
Albanians in Macedonia?
Serbs in Bosnia?
Croats in Bosnia?
Kurds in Turkey and Iran?
Tibetans in China?

Why an exception for Kosovo?

Ron,

sorry, I totally disagree with your second posting (#8). I really appreciated you realism in #2, but unfortunately it faded away in the rhetoric of #8.

What Kosovo is today is not perfect, of course. It is however the best solution, if the alternative is "Serbia". A Kosovo part of Serbia is not a viable solution and I challenge you to find any Albanian thinking the opposite.

But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?

Ron,

the exception is determined by the fact that Serbia cannot rule Kosovo any longer. The Albanians in Macedonia don't want to separate, as far as things don't change. Those in Serbia are left there for the sake of geopolitcs.

It is also determined by geopolitics. I'm all for a free Tibet or Kurdistan or what else. I guess you understand why we can't free them. I've tried to explain it to you on other occasions, but you don't seem to get it.

Another flaw of your list is that you're turning back to the logic of the state of the nation, while Kosovo has to work as a whole, a state of its citizens. Otherwise it would set a very bad precedent for Europe. The Albanian majority has agreed to it. The Serbian minority and Belgrade haven't.

That's why EULEX is needed there.

genc,

Bombing China to free Tibet maybe is a bit too much of a task for NATO :)

But what about asking Turkey to let Kurdistan go? Why not say: no EU for Turkey if it does not recognize Kurdistan?

I mean, why Serbia has to choose (according to some) between Kosovo and EU?
Then let the same standards apply to Turkey?

And what about Iraq? A fully artificial state created by the UK. But Kurds must stay in that state? Why Kosovo can go? I really can't understand!

"lowe,

you have the answers in my #16. May I add that K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders, and the borders of constitutional units of ex-Yugo have to be preserved, even at great expences. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe.

As for M-Albanians, that's not my opinion. Name a party or a promiment Albanian politician in Macedonia speaking out for separation. My and your opinion doesn't matter at all.

And the K-Albanians didn't break from Serbia last year!
Please get the facts straight if you want to understand things.

(genc, 15 February 2009 20:18) "

genc,

I would suggest that you are the one, not me, who needs to get the facts straight. The fact is that there were only 6 constituent republics in pre-1991 Yugoslavia and Kosovo was not one of them. Kosovo was a province of Serbia albeit with high automnomy. So when Pristina declared independence last year, how can you not call it a break from Serbia????

You claimed to answer my query on post #13 regarding your double standards in post #16. On the contrary, I see your post #16 as merely a restatement of your double standards. Why should Albanians be entitled to dismember Serbia but the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede from "Kosova"? You cannot objectively answer this question can you?

"Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states," he said.

Typical british spin to, in effect, to sound positive and friendly but say nothing.

Don't worry, the moment your back is turned, the dagger will go in. Perfidious Albion!

This does not stop behind the scenes pressure on Belgrade to 'recognize' albanian controlled parts of Kosovo though.

Legally, it CANNOT be a condition for joining the EU, especially that there is no unanimity among member states, regardless of the fact that 22 have 'recognized' Kosovo.

To the Albanians out there crowing that it is a 'condition', answer this simple question:

Do you think that Kosovo will 'join' the EU before Serbia does?

If Serbia is a long way from joining, then the albanian controlled parts of 'Kosovo' is much further away as it must also adopt and implement the acquis communautaire before joining.

genc,

OK, then what about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia help these regions to stay 'independent' from Georgia.

West cannot use the EU-carrot to persuade Georgia let alone Abkhazia or South Ossetia to change its politics.

Face it. MOst EU countries do not want Georgia in EU. Abkhazia and South Ossetia probably do not want to join EU themselves.

But hey, if these are the facts why not 'accept the realities on the ground' in this case also?

Ron #20,

As I told you, every case is a sui generis case. Abkhasia and S. Ossetia don't affect European stability at the extent Kosovo does.

As for Georgia, I don't think it will enter the EU in the foreseeble future. Maybe it won't ever enter EU. It could become a NATO member in a far future , even it seems less realistic now than 1 year ago.

"Please read carefully my previous post. Why the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede? Because K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe. Same applies to Valley Albanians. You see, they aren't either allowed to secede, although they would wish that almost 100%!

Do you get my point now??

(genc, 16 February 2009 11:48)"

genc,

I read your post many times and my opinion remain unchanged.

You are still missing the point. So the Serbs within Kosovo's borders are not allowed to secede in your opinion. BUT KOSOVO ITSELF WAS ENTIRELY WITHIN SERBIA'S BORDERS BEFORE THE UDI! Yet for you only Albanians are allowed this privilege to secede in the SERBIAN PROVINCE of Kosovo but not the Serbs from the northern region of Kosovo!

You cannot evade the issue of double standards no matter how you try to twist and turn the issue.

"what you miss is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. That has nothing to do with double standards, but with stability.
Kosovo was adminstrated by UN from 1999. Serbia's sovereignity and institutions were removed in 1999 in all but on the paper.

This explains and motivates the secession, resp. liberation.

And no one had any doubts about the outcome.

And please don't concentrate only on K-Serbs. Even the Valley Albanians are not allowed to secede, for the same reason.

Generally this is meant when Kosovo is refered to as a sui generis case.


And capital spelling is no argument
(genc, 16 February 2009 19:39) "

My capital spelling was to highlight your persistent attempts to avoid the issue that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. And still remains so under international law and 1244.

If part of Serbia can be allowed to secede, then part of "Kosova" itself should be allowed to do so too.

And all this talk about Kosovo being a sui generis case is a lot of Western hogwash. A convenient excuse used to trample on state sovereignty and violate international law when it suits Western (and mainly American) interests. The K-Serbs' position in "Kosova" can be argues to be equally generis too. The fact is that no two conflict in the world is similar, in that sense EVERY conflict has a sui generis quality. You cannot however choose to violate state sovereignty in one case and not do so in another just because the first one happens to be convenient for your political agenda.

"Kosovo had a high autonomy until 1989. It was forcibly revoced by Serbia. From 1989-1999 the Serbian Kosovo was governed through military measures. In 1999 the Serbian administratino was removed and Kosovo was governed from UN. It can't return under Serbian administration.

That makes it a special case.

About the K-Serbs: they can't secede because the internal borders of ex-Yugo can't change. If they secede, than also the Valley Albanians should join Kosovo, don't you agree? And then also the Albaians in Macedonia and Montenegro, Serbs and Croats in Bosnia, Moslems in Sandjak, Hungarians in Vojvodina will have the right to secede, right?

The K-Serbs can pretend to secede if Kosovo anuls the Ahtisaari provisions, centralizes the state and abolishes their wide-extended autonomy.

Bottom line: no one has to gain anything from K-Serb secesion, Serbia at the least.
(genc, 17 February 2009 14:06)"

Nobody should be allowed to secede without a state's consent. Otherwise it makes a complete mockery of international law and state sovereignty. This should apply to everyone -- K-Serbs, K-Albanians, "Valley" Albanians, American Indians, Greenland Eskimos, Cyprus etc etc. But when you chose to give one group secession privileges and not others, double standards invariably creeps in. I had thought Belgrade's offer of maximum and monitored autonomy to the K-Albanians as being very reasonable. And if despite this, the K-Albanians should choose to secede from their state of Serbia, then natural justice requires them to allow the K-Serbs to detach their parts of Kosovo from Prisina.

The K-Serbs won't benefit by joining their parts of Kosovo to Serbia? Why don't you ask them and let them decide? I will bet you an overwhelming majority of them will vote that they are better off in Belgrade's embrace.

And why are Kosovo's borders so sacred that they can't change while those of Serbia (within which Kosovo is a province) can? Again double standards.

The K-Serbs don't need to pretend to secede. There is already a de facto partition at the Ibar. Pristina never ruled that part of Kosovo period. Since you talk about pretence, it would seem to me that it is actually Prisitina that is pretending to rule over the north.

I did not mention the territorial part because it really reflects extremely bad on Serbia. The goal when it was written was that eventually Kosovo would be safe to reunite as an autonomous part of Serbia. Serbia had full international support, but change never happened Serbia has convinced no one that the Kosovo people would be safe if reunited with Serbia.
You do not see anyone avocating the removal of 1244.
It will forever be a thorn in the side of Serbia as land that the international community will never release back to them.

lowe,

you have the answers in my #16. May I add that K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders, and the borders of constitutional units of ex-Yugo have to be preserved, even at great expences. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe.

As for M-Albanians, that's not my opinion. Name a party or a promiment Albanian politician in Macedonia speaking out for separation. My and your opinion doesn't matter at all.

And the K-Albanians didn't break from Serbia last year!
Please get the facts straight if you want to understand things.

Ron,

The general answer again is geopolitics. In our case also Serbia cannot govern Kosovo any longer, everybody knows it quite well! There would be no stability in the Region and in Europe if Serbia tries to reoccupy Kosovo. As for the rest I'm all for a free Kurdistan and Chechnya etc. etc. But, to put it harshly; Turkey is quite stable with Kurds inside; dividind the artificial (Agree) state of Irak would cause a chain of reactions... You see, every case is a case sui generis if you consider it.

And Serbia has to chose only EU or not EU. On Kosovo Serbia has no choice, but complicate things for itself and for Kosovo.

lowe,

so was it until 1999, when the Serbian state in the person of Milosevic tried to resolve the problem through war, losing thus Kosovo. You will understand that, having expelled 800.000 - 1 million citizens, not to speak of the previous history, you can't expect them to feel loyal to the state who chased them.

Pristina declared independence at the end of a negotiation process on the basis of 1244, which foresaw any outcome. Serbia didn't agree to what is now a non- consensual divorce.

But the real cause is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo any longer, everybody knows that (I guess in Belgrade they know it better than in Brussels, since there were voices in Brussels about a kind of confederation Serbia-Kosovo, which was refused in Belgrade). A Serbia with Kosovo would be highly unstable right in the heart of the Balkans, that's why.

Please read carefully my previous post. Why the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede? Because K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe. Same applies to Valley Albanians. You see, they aren't either allowed to secede, although they would wish that almost 100%!

Do you get my point now??

Maybe many on this site still dream on past patterns: the nation-state: a state for all Serbians, resp. Albanians etc. etc. That runs against the historical tendencies of the time and thus is doomed to fail. Personally I do think that would have very negative
consequences for the Balkan peoples (authoritarian drive, which we've suffered from before).

Hence the best choice is what the reality is now. The sooner all understand it, the better for all.

lowe,

what you miss is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. That has nothing to do with double standards, but with stability.
Kosovo was adminstrated by UN from 1999. Serbia's sovereignity and institutions were removed in 1999 in all but on the paper.

This explains and motivates the secession, resp. liberation.

And no one had any doubts about the outcome.

And please don't concentrate only on K-Serbs. Even the Valley Albanians are not allowed to secede, for the same reason.

Generally this is meant when Kosovo is refered to as a sui generis case.


And capital spelling is no argument

lowe,

Kosovo had a high autonomy until 1989. It was forcibly revoced by Serbia. From 1989-1999 the Serbian Kosovo was governed through military measures. In 1999 the Serbian administratino was removed and Kosovo was governed from UN. It can't return under Serbian administration.

That makes it a special case.

About the K-Serbs: they can't secede because the internal borders of ex-Yugo can't change. If they secede, than also the Valley Albanians should join Kosovo, don't you agree? And then also the Albaians in Macedonia and Montenegro, Serbs and Croats in Bosnia, Moslems in Sandjak, Hungarians in Vojvodina will have the right to secede, right?

The K-Serbs can pretend to secede if Kosovo anuls the Ahtisaari provisions, centralizes the state and abolishes their wide-extended autonomy.

Bottom line: no one has to gain anything from K-Serb secesion, Serbia at the least.

Ron,

strange enough, but I agree with you in all, but the bottom line (and the word "never"; never say never, you know).

But, being the bottom line quite subjective (other people think exactly the opposite) and of no relevance at all, we can easily ignore it.

“Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states,”

Let the UK and those other 21 criminal EU countries find a way to face the fact that most countries in the world including Russia and China don't recognize that fake illegal independence.
Offcourse serbia don't have to recognize a so called indepentent Kosovo to become EU member.
UK or Ireland also didn't have to do that by recognizing a independent Northern Ireland to become EU member so why would Serbia?

More and more signals are coming in stating that Serbia will enter EU without recognizing Kosovo.

Let's face the facts. Countries like Spain and Slovakia will never recognize Kosovo. As they know Kosovo will be a precedent.

It is totally against the interests of the EU to let Serbia wait 20 years. That is the time it will at least take to bring Kosovo (if it would become independent) economically on a EU level.

The result:

Serbia joins EU. Kosovo will stay EU governed. And in that way will also join EU.

Resulting in a Kosovo that is not independent at all. What a sad result. FOR ALL PEOPLE!

Wake up Tadaic! Wake up Jeremic! Wake up Serbia!

These are the very same people that for 78 days and nights were killing, maiming, and terrorizing our civilians, bombing our schools, hospitals, factories, bridges, poisoning our environment, stole our sacred land and gave it to the narco-mafia that has cleansed most of us and put the rest of us behind barbed wire.

Now they are using psychological tactics to instill in us that we are the evil-doers and not them--- while at the same time humiliating us and tactically killing our spirit like they do in military institutions---so we can be their obidient dogs.

They can take their carrots and sticks and their "done deals" and showe them where the sun never shines---for I would rather die the most horible death that a human mind can conceive, than wed into the family that mercilessly kills my women and children while grinning and giving one another thumbs-up and high-fives.

I have strnog feeling Mr. Ambassador that you have screwed-up and failled "big time" with Serbia. Your biggest mistake was that you've overlooked the fact that we are the people of Dostoevsky, Tolstoi,Ivan Sirko, and Hayduk Veljko ("my head I freely give, but not my region")

"Done Deal" Mr. Ambassador??? Many of us don't think so!!!

“Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states,” he said.

So guys nobody is going to ask you to recognize. You are going to recognize Kosovo voluntarily in order to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states

Bojan,
Russia always goes for its own interest; it changed its policy toward Kosovo as it strengthened economically but it is not going to start a war to help Serbia. Russia will always be a second rate economic power. China really does not care about the Balkans. Serbia can only count on some countries that are afraid of potential irredentism in their own countries. As for the UN, it has never been a factor of change, and evetually will reflect the reality on the ground.

genc,

But if you are pro-indepedent or not, isn't the situation in which Kosovo is governed by the EU but *NOT* an EU member, a very sad result.

Then we have an EU which consists of let's say 30 nations and one protectorate.

Kosovo will have no voting right. Kosovars can't vote for European elections.

Kosovo would be better off beging part of a democratic Serbia.

By the way: Kosovo still *is* part of Serbia!

"Regarding Kosovo, no one is asking Serbia to recognize its independence. Serbia must find a way, on its own, to face the fact that Kosovo has been recognized by 22 EU member-states," he said.

Typical british spin to, in effect, to sound positive and friendly but say nothing.

Don't worry, the moment your back is turned, the dagger will go in. Perfidious Albion!

This does not stop behind the scenes pressure on Belgrade to 'recognize' albanian controlled parts of Kosovo though.

Legally, it CANNOT be a condition for joining the EU, especially that there is no unanimity among member states, regardless of the fact that 22 have 'recognized' Kosovo.

To the Albanians out there crowing that it is a 'condition', answer this simple question:

Do you think that Kosovo will 'join' the EU before Serbia does?

If Serbia is a long way from joining, then the albanian controlled parts of 'Kosovo' is much further away as it must also adopt and implement the acquis communautaire before joining.

"Kosovo's independence is a done deal."


That's all I needed to hear about this whole article, just that one sentence. Thank you Britain. Serbia can do as it wishes about the EU, they can enter this year for all we care, but it'll be without Kosovo.

Kosovo would be better off being a part of democratic Serbia.
Ron

How can you make such a statement. UNSC 1244 was not the first resolution there were 4 prior that tried to stop the atrocities of Serbia against the people of Kosovo. All receiving full support of the UNSC including China and Russia.
Finally an international bombing campaign and the support of all UNSC members to enact 1244. Even China and Russia felt that it was necessary to expel all Serbian forces out of the province and not allow within 25 km of the border and severed all political and economic ties of Serbia and Kosovo. Brought in international forces to prohibit Serbia from interfering.
And most important there is no indication or probability that the UNSC will ever give those rights back to Serbia.

I did not mention the territorial part because it really reflects extremely bad on Serbia. The goal when it was written was that eventually Kosovo would be safe to reunite as an autonomous part of Serbia. Serbia had full international support, but change never happened Serbia has convinced no one that the Kosovo people would be safe if reunited with Serbia.
You do not see anyone avocating the removal of 1244.
It will forever be a thorn in the side of Serbia as land that the international community will never release back to them.

It is obvious to those that know and understand the mentality of both the Albanians and the Serbs why the West is sinking their peoples tax money into a black hole and so far failing miserably in achieving their most important goals in a time frame which they have predicted. They rely to much on poles and logic instead of thorough research into ones history,customs, and mentality. For example: They need to know that the Albanians will always be loyal to their tribe and their clan first. That means that their justice system, police, army, and other institutions can never be fair or just to the Serbs or other minorities. As far as trying to predict the Serbs next moves by relying on logic, they have another thing coming. Here is what hapend when Kara George summoned his chieftains in conclave to vote on war or peace with the Turks.

One of his wisest counselors spoke, "we most not fight, Black George. We're only a handful against a mighty Turkish army." The Serbian leader took out his pistol and shot down his adviser. "What have you done, Black George? What have you done?" his chieftains cried. "I have killed logic," George replied. By tearing up the pact with Hitler, the Serbs again "killed logic."

Ron,

sorry, I totally disagree with your second posting (#8). I really appreciated you realism in #2, but unfortunately it faded away in the rhetoric of #8.

What Kosovo is today is not perfect, of course. It is however the best solution, if the alternative is "Serbia". A Kosovo part of Serbia is not a viable solution and I challenge you to find any Albanian thinking the opposite.

But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?

ginc,

"But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?"

Does the same apply to:

Serbs in Northern Kosovo?
Albanians in Macedonia?
Serbs in Bosnia?
Croats in Bosnia?
Kurds in Turkey and Iran?
Tibetans in China?

Why an exception for Kosovo?

Ron,

the exception is determined by the fact that Serbia cannot rule Kosovo any longer. The Albanians in Macedonia don't want to separate, as far as things don't change. Those in Serbia are left there for the sake of geopolitcs.

It is also determined by geopolitics. I'm all for a free Tibet or Kurdistan or what else. I guess you understand why we can't free them. I've tried to explain it to you on other occasions, but you don't seem to get it.

Another flaw of your list is that you're turning back to the logic of the state of the nation, while Kosovo has to work as a whole, a state of its citizens. Otherwise it would set a very bad precedent for Europe. The Albanian majority has agreed to it. The Serbian minority and Belgrade haven't.

That's why EULEX is needed there.

lowe,

you have the answers in my #16. May I add that K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders, and the borders of constitutional units of ex-Yugo have to be preserved, even at great expences. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe.

As for M-Albanians, that's not my opinion. Name a party or a promiment Albanian politician in Macedonia speaking out for separation. My and your opinion doesn't matter at all.

And the K-Albanians didn't break from Serbia last year!
Please get the facts straight if you want to understand things.

Ron,

The general answer again is geopolitics. In our case also Serbia cannot govern Kosovo any longer, everybody knows it quite well! There would be no stability in the Region and in Europe if Serbia tries to reoccupy Kosovo. As for the rest I'm all for a free Kurdistan and Chechnya etc. etc. But, to put it harshly; Turkey is quite stable with Kurds inside; dividind the artificial (Agree) state of Irak would cause a chain of reactions... You see, every case is a case sui generis if you consider it.

And Serbia has to chose only EU or not EU. On Kosovo Serbia has no choice, but complicate things for itself and for Kosovo.

lowe,

so was it until 1999, when the Serbian state in the person of Milosevic tried to resolve the problem through war, losing thus Kosovo. You will understand that, having expelled 800.000 - 1 million citizens, not to speak of the previous history, you can't expect them to feel loyal to the state who chased them.

Pristina declared independence at the end of a negotiation process on the basis of 1244, which foresaw any outcome. Serbia didn't agree to what is now a non- consensual divorce.

But the real cause is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo any longer, everybody knows that (I guess in Belgrade they know it better than in Brussels, since there were voices in Brussels about a kind of confederation Serbia-Kosovo, which was refused in Belgrade). A Serbia with Kosovo would be highly unstable right in the heart of the Balkans, that's why.

Please read carefully my previous post. Why the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede? Because K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe. Same applies to Valley Albanians. You see, they aren't either allowed to secede, although they would wish that almost 100%!

Do you get my point now??

Maybe many on this site still dream on past patterns: the nation-state: a state for all Serbians, resp. Albanians etc. etc. That runs against the historical tendencies of the time and thus is doomed to fail. Personally I do think that would have very negative
consequences for the Balkan peoples (authoritarian drive, which we've suffered from before).

Hence the best choice is what the reality is now. The sooner all understand it, the better for all.

"How can you make such a statement. UNSC 1244 was not the first resolution there were 4 prior that tried to stop the atrocities of Serbia against the people of Kosovo. All receiving full support of the UNSC including China and Russia.
Finally an international bombing campaign and the support of all UNSC members to enact 1244. Even China and Russia felt that it was necessary to expel all Serbian forces out of the province and not allow within 25 km of the border and severed all political and economic ties of Serbia and Kosovo. Brought in international forces to prohibit Serbia from interfering.
And most important there is no indication or probability that the UNSC will ever give those rights back to Serbia.
(pss, 14 February 2009 00:59) "

You conveniently forgot that 1244 recognizes Belgrade's sovereignty over Kosovo.

"genc (post #13)

But anyway, let the Kosovars decide how they're better off. They know better than the others how they're better of, as you know it for yourself, true?
(genc, 14 February 2009 14:28)"

And if those "Kosovars" north of the Ibar are convinced (as I am very sure they are) thAt they are better off as part of Serbia, you will respect their wishes, right? Or are we talking double standards here?


"genc (post #16)

1. the exception is determined by the fact that Serbia cannot rule Kosovo any longer. The Albanians in Macedonia don't want to separate, as far as things don't change. Those in Serbia are left there for the sake of geopolitcs.


2. Another flaw of your list is that you're turning back to the logic of the state of the nation, while Kosovo has to work as a whole, a state of its citizens. Otherwise it would set a very bad precedent for Europe. The Albanian majority has agreed to it. The Serbian minority and Belgrade haven't."

genc,

1. The Macedonian Albanians may not want to separate (your opinion not mine), but what about the K-Serbs in Kosovo? If you conduct a free and fair poll right now, I can bet you close to 100% of the K-Serbs will reject "Kosova".

2. Isn't this just the very double standards in your views that I referred to in your earlier post #13? While all "Kosovars" (including K-Serbs) are obliged to make the state of Kosovo work in your opinion, you do not however consider this to be the obligation of all Serbians and that some of them (aka K-Albanians) are entitled to breakaway from the state of Serbia, as they did last year.

Of course, maybe you are just following your US masters, they are renowned the world over for their double standards everywhere. That's why the Yankees have hardly any credibility left nowadays.

genc,

Bombing China to free Tibet maybe is a bit too much of a task for NATO :)

But what about asking Turkey to let Kurdistan go? Why not say: no EU for Turkey if it does not recognize Kurdistan?

I mean, why Serbia has to choose (according to some) between Kosovo and EU?
Then let the same standards apply to Turkey?

And what about Iraq? A fully artificial state created by the UK. But Kurds must stay in that state? Why Kosovo can go? I really can't understand!

genc,

OK, then what about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia help these regions to stay 'independent' from Georgia.

West cannot use the EU-carrot to persuade Georgia let alone Abkhazia or South Ossetia to change its politics.

Face it. MOst EU countries do not want Georgia in EU. Abkhazia and South Ossetia probably do not want to join EU themselves.

But hey, if these are the facts why not 'accept the realities on the ground' in this case also?

"Please read carefully my previous post. Why the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede? Because K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe. Same applies to Valley Albanians. You see, they aren't either allowed to secede, although they would wish that almost 100%!

Do you get my point now??

(genc, 16 February 2009 11:48)"

genc,

I read your post many times and my opinion remain unchanged.

You are still missing the point. So the Serbs within Kosovo's borders are not allowed to secede in your opinion. BUT KOSOVO ITSELF WAS ENTIRELY WITHIN SERBIA'S BORDERS BEFORE THE UDI! Yet for you only Albanians are allowed this privilege to secede in the SERBIAN PROVINCE of Kosovo but not the Serbs from the northern region of Kosovo!

You cannot evade the issue of double standards no matter how you try to twist and turn the issue.

lowe,

what you miss is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. That has nothing to do with double standards, but with stability.
Kosovo was adminstrated by UN from 1999. Serbia's sovereignity and institutions were removed in 1999 in all but on the paper.

This explains and motivates the secession, resp. liberation.

And no one had any doubts about the outcome.

And please don't concentrate only on K-Serbs. Even the Valley Albanians are not allowed to secede, for the same reason.

Generally this is meant when Kosovo is refered to as a sui generis case.


And capital spelling is no argument

"what you miss is that Serbia cannot govern Kosovo. That has nothing to do with double standards, but with stability.
Kosovo was adminstrated by UN from 1999. Serbia's sovereignity and institutions were removed in 1999 in all but on the paper.

This explains and motivates the secession, resp. liberation.

And no one had any doubts about the outcome.

And please don't concentrate only on K-Serbs. Even the Valley Albanians are not allowed to secede, for the same reason.

Generally this is meant when Kosovo is refered to as a sui generis case.


And capital spelling is no argument
(genc, 16 February 2009 19:39) "

My capital spelling was to highlight your persistent attempts to avoid the issue that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. And still remains so under international law and 1244.

If part of Serbia can be allowed to secede, then part of "Kosova" itself should be allowed to do so too.

And all this talk about Kosovo being a sui generis case is a lot of Western hogwash. A convenient excuse used to trample on state sovereignty and violate international law when it suits Western (and mainly American) interests. The K-Serbs' position in "Kosova" can be argues to be equally generis too. The fact is that no two conflict in the world is similar, in that sense EVERY conflict has a sui generis quality. You cannot however choose to violate state sovereignty in one case and not do so in another just because the first one happens to be convenient for your political agenda.

lowe,

Kosovo had a high autonomy until 1989. It was forcibly revoced by Serbia. From 1989-1999 the Serbian Kosovo was governed through military measures. In 1999 the Serbian administratino was removed and Kosovo was governed from UN. It can't return under Serbian administration.

That makes it a special case.

About the K-Serbs: they can't secede because the internal borders of ex-Yugo can't change. If they secede, than also the Valley Albanians should join Kosovo, don't you agree? And then also the Albaians in Macedonia and Montenegro, Serbs and Croats in Bosnia, Moslems in Sandjak, Hungarians in Vojvodina will have the right to secede, right?

The K-Serbs can pretend to secede if Kosovo anuls the Ahtisaari provisions, centralizes the state and abolishes their wide-extended autonomy.

Bottom line: no one has to gain anything from K-Serb secesion, Serbia at the least.

"Kosovo had a high autonomy until 1989. It was forcibly revoced by Serbia. From 1989-1999 the Serbian Kosovo was governed through military measures. In 1999 the Serbian administratino was removed and Kosovo was governed from UN. It can't return under Serbian administration.

That makes it a special case.

About the K-Serbs: they can't secede because the internal borders of ex-Yugo can't change. If they secede, than also the Valley Albanians should join Kosovo, don't you agree? And then also the Albaians in Macedonia and Montenegro, Serbs and Croats in Bosnia, Moslems in Sandjak, Hungarians in Vojvodina will have the right to secede, right?

The K-Serbs can pretend to secede if Kosovo anuls the Ahtisaari provisions, centralizes the state and abolishes their wide-extended autonomy.

Bottom line: no one has to gain anything from K-Serb secesion, Serbia at the least.
(genc, 17 February 2009 14:06)"

Nobody should be allowed to secede without a state's consent. Otherwise it makes a complete mockery of international law and state sovereignty. This should apply to everyone -- K-Serbs, K-Albanians, "Valley" Albanians, American Indians, Greenland Eskimos, Cyprus etc etc. But when you chose to give one group secession privileges and not others, double standards invariably creeps in. I had thought Belgrade's offer of maximum and monitored autonomy to the K-Albanians as being very reasonable. And if despite this, the K-Albanians should choose to secede from their state of Serbia, then natural justice requires them to allow the K-Serbs to detach their parts of Kosovo from Prisina.

The K-Serbs won't benefit by joining their parts of Kosovo to Serbia? Why don't you ask them and let them decide? I will bet you an overwhelming majority of them will vote that they are better off in Belgrade's embrace.

And why are Kosovo's borders so sacred that they can't change while those of Serbia (within which Kosovo is a province) can? Again double standards.

The K-Serbs don't need to pretend to secede. There is already a de facto partition at the Ibar. Pristina never ruled that part of Kosovo period. Since you talk about pretence, it would seem to me that it is actually Prisitina that is pretending to rule over the north.

Ron #20,

As I told you, every case is a sui generis case. Abkhasia and S. Ossetia don't affect European stability at the extent Kosovo does.

As for Georgia, I don't think it will enter the EU in the foreseeble future. Maybe it won't ever enter EU. It could become a NATO member in a far future , even it seems less realistic now than 1 year ago.

"lowe,

you have the answers in my #16. May I add that K-Serbs happen to be inside the K-borders, and the borders of constitutional units of ex-Yugo have to be preserved, even at great expences. The alternative is the state-nation, or the return of the past in Europe.

As for M-Albanians, that's not my opinion. Name a party or a promiment Albanian politician in Macedonia speaking out for separation. My and your opinion doesn't matter at all.

And the K-Albanians didn't break from Serbia last year!
Please get the facts straight if you want to understand things.

(genc, 15 February 2009 20:18) "

genc,

I would suggest that you are the one, not me, who needs to get the facts straight. The fact is that there were only 6 constituent republics in pre-1991 Yugoslavia and Kosovo was not one of them. Kosovo was a province of Serbia albeit with high automnomy. So when Pristina declared independence last year, how can you not call it a break from Serbia????

You claimed to answer my query on post #13 regarding your double standards in post #16. On the contrary, I see your post #16 as merely a restatement of your double standards. Why should Albanians be entitled to dismember Serbia but the K-Serbs are not allowed to secede from "Kosova"? You cannot objectively answer this question can you?