Tuesday, 03.02.2009.
11:16
An Australian court has approved the extradition of Dragan Vasiljković, known as Captain Dragan, to Croatia, where he is indicted for war crimes.
Izvor: B92
IMAGE SOURCE
pre 15 godina
What a coincidence. Only a couple of days after I post how Croatia is hiding Operation Storm documents from the ICTY and is thus hardly to be trusted in criminal matters, I find this on B92:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=02&dd=05&nav_id=56931
Brammertz still chasing Storm documents
pre 15 godina
ZK is Australia even a member of NATO??
No, I can't swallow this one. Of course some weren't happy that Dragan's testimony wasn't, in their minds, strong enough in favour of the prosecution but come on this guy Dragan small fry for them. For Croatia on the other hand he is HUGE. An opportunity to show how right they were to ethnically cleanse warmongering Serbs.
Are they really going to pursue Dragan pulling strings through the Australian justice system. Frankly, why bother when the judicial system would likely pack him off to Croatia anyway.
You are seeing too many ghosts under the bed.
Dino abolute rubbish. Jugoslavija ceased existing at the earliest at the proclaimation of independence. These underhand Croatian attempts to potray JNA activity before then as that of an 'invader' or 'outside force' is absolutely false. The legality of the independence proclamation is another fact we can argue about, but what I said above is fact. Thus Jugoslavija in no way ceased to exist with the 'bureacratic revolution' in Vojvodina. For sure it was bus in a crowd time, but that was another matter.
And this defence against ethnic cleansing is almost amusing. So any leaders that tell their people to leave because they fear they will be murdered caused ethnic cleansing?!!!
We must track down the statements of Croatian, Albanian and other leaders to see if they advised their populations to leave rather than be killed.
It will mean that precisely nobody is guilty of ethnic cleansing.
pre 15 godina
Of course the most stunning success of the croat justice system is that no one has been tried and sentenced for the strangling of Saša Gešovski (a macedonian JNA conscript) by a mob in Split on May 6, 1991 (as reported on B92 not so long ago). They know who the murderer is as it was actually broadcast on tv where the soldiers were surrounded by a mob.
pre 15 godina
Dino...
First what was going on in serbia whit vojvodina and kosovo does not give the reason to other republics to separate from yugo. What was done needed to be done, they were going the way of independence and it needed to be stoped.
Milosevic rised nacionalism, but its exactly what all other yugo presidents have done. They all did the same thing.
There was a way to get independence for all yugo republics in peace but its not what Tudjman, Alija and other wanted cause it could take a deceny or two and they will not remain on power.
If the president change the process of separation may stop if the new president is pro yugo. This scenario could easily happen in bosnia.
The only way to do it immediately was a war. And it was clear to everybody. The only thing yugo presidents wanted is a power and right now! Its a typical balkan mentality.
I think that its very good that yugo have braked but it brokeup the wrong way.
pre 15 godina
bganon, nothing to do with Croatia's prospect for NATO membership but more to do with Captain Dragan upsetting the NATO court so they found a way to punish him through Croatia. It should be fairly obvious by now that any Serbian with any influence during that period who went against NATO have been put out of action one way or another.
pre 15 godina
Another Canadian Serb,
Croatia was part of a federation which dissolved. Yugoslavia stopped existing and funcitoning when Milosevic installed puppet leaders in Vojvodina and Kosovo. Presidency didnt function, so how can a country exist?
Then UN determined that there was a legal basis for separation of all states and which was later recognised by Jugoslavija. So Serbia by recognising independence of Slovenia etc obviously recognsed they were able to do so. So not quiet sure what is illegal. Military stopped listening to its president, ie. Mesic, so there was no Yugoslavia.
Serbian argument that Croatia had to get Serbia's permission to leave a federation is illogical and doesnt exist anywhere else. Its a play on words.
But there was everything illegal about Milosevic interferring in affairs of another country, attempting to annex parts of another country, aiding another country into an armed rebellion politically and militarily, activly encoured a mass exodus of population from another country (I still find it amazing that people consider this as cleansing given that RSK leadership testified to ordering evacuation prior to Storm, there are television interviews, documents with Babic signatures and his statements).
There is nothign LEGAL will all of that above so serbia cant call on a law that itself broke and cry victim whenever it benefits itself.
pre 15 godina
Dino,
i am certain according to your story, that Captain Dragan killed the Croat in self defence.
Wasn't Croatia's army illegal and treasonous against the state of Jugoslavia.
pre 15 godina
So you have those on the one side who claim Dragan is a hero and are not interested in his testimony or wondering if it was possible that his forces committed war crimes. On the other you have those who believe him to be guilty long before he enters a courtroom. Frankly, its a little sad.
Dino, are you saying that Croatia didn't have active, illegal paramilitary forces that committed war crimes? In the Jugoslav context Croatian troops were illegal forces operating on Jugoslav territory. And just because a couple of witnesses (which you must admit may well have been coached by Croatian DB) have turned up to testify to Dragan's brutality does not mean what they are saying is true, does it? This is a matter of national significance to Croatia. Dragan must be convicted, whether he is guilty or not.
It is a show trial and you know it and most Croatians will see it in these simplistic terms:
'Was Croatian independence war just?' If you believe it was then Dragan is guilty, if you believe it wasn't then Dragan was innocent. (Yeah, its what the Americans call a 'no brainer'. People are hardly capable of understanding the question, so quite understandably I'm worried about Dragan getting a fair trial. He does deserve a fair trial you know.
Jen I'm glad you posted because that is exactly what I mean. We are talking about Dragan's case and you are referring to a Canadian in Vukovar, you will have to tell me what you mean by that.
But what you say about neighbours is exactly my point - yes some turned the other way, immoral yes but not criminal. There were also cases whether neighbours helped each other. But put that aside, the fact that some looked the other way, or even took part in turning against their neighbours has nothing to do with Dragan. He is not on trial for their choices. The ONLY thing that he should be judged on is his war conduct. Remember he has already spent 3 years in an Australian jail - the chances are the Croatian judiciary will have to ensure that he receives a long sentence or there will be a public outcry. Be honest isn't it true that the man must be procliamed guilty and that he must be sentenced more than 3 years, whether he is guilty or not?
Rashan your post makes no sense. I am against the trial in Croatia, because I don't believe a fair trial is possible. As for 'my comments' on Krajina, they are not my comments they are Dragans direct quotes from the Hague transcript. None of my comments had to do with Krajina. Learn to read properly before you criticise what I said. Or at least state clearly if you believe that Dragan lied in his testimony.
ZK it would be great to sit down with you with a copy of Dragan's testimony. The difference between us is that you are going to the subject (every subject on the former Jug) from a certain position. I am constantly refining my position depending on new facts / facts I was unaware of. You are interpreting Milosevic's cross examination of Dragan to prove your position. I am advocating reading all the transcripts and then deciding. And so it goes on with every topic. For example your opinion that Croatia wants to try Dragan having anything to do with seeking NATO membership is nonsense and shows little understanding of what the Homeland war and the likes of Dragan means to Croatians. It has nothing to do with NATO membership and everything to do with Croatian contemporary politics and the birth of Croatia as an independent state.
You probably know much more about the Australian justice system than I do, but I know about the British system. Unfair extradition is common, no conspiracy is necessary.
pre 15 godina
Why isn't the Croat Miro Bajramovic in prison for killing over 80 Serb civilians - most of them tortured with electricity while imprisoned before they were murdered by Tomislav Mercep.
The same Tomislav Mercep who started the killings in Vukovar by arresting Serb civilians, torturing them, killing them, then dumping their bodies in the rivers or elsewhere. There are photos of identified Serbs from Vukovar who were killed by the Croat police and Mercep starting from the very beginning of the war.
Tomislav Mercep was protected by the Croat government and taken out of Vukovar before its fall, and from there he formed a torture and killing unit with Miro Bajramovic and they killed several hundred at least. I mean, if just one man from the unit - Bajramovic - admits he killed 86 people - then how many must have the entire unit, "Autumn Rain", have killed?
pre 15 godina
Its simple, Dragan was an officer in an illegal paramilitary force. He beat up citizens whom he arrested but were no danger and one died. Its not a show trial and if it is, its only because of circumstances regarding his arrest.
pre 15 godina
BG-Anon
Another Krajina Serb bites the dust and you pop the champagne again.
I know B-92 allows you to post on all things Krajina but know that this decision by the " Kangaroo" court is an affront to it's own citizenry.
If they start exporting their citizens on the flimsy case the Horvats have against him then that makes Gitmo a human rights paradise.
Please stop your comments on Krajina, It is best left to people who actually know what they're talking about.
Captain D was a professional soldier, something that would need a lot of explaining here I feel but I will not waste my time....
pre 15 godina
bganon, I read most of the Milosevic transcripts apart from the last few months where I had the intention to catch up if it wasn't for his death.
If anyone is interested I do suggest they read all of Captain Dragan's testimony but for those that want to read Milosevic's cross-examination then I have pointed to where that begins. What he did was to say that Milosevic had very little influence on the situation in Croatia as the indictment would otherwise suggest. He backed Milosevic up on pretty much every question he asked and he was then treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution.
Read the links. It's all there and yes, I believe that this trial in Croatia has something to do with his testimony at the NATO court. He embarrassed NATO and therefore this NATO candidate (Croatia) is now used to punish him.
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I cant believe you were questiones in vukovar without reason.Please tell us why a canadian was in vukovar. Expand on the story. By the way your 3 reasons for people being sentenced in abstentia failed to include the fact that the people who used to be neighbours and friends of the accused witnessed certain acts of violence. people can forgive, but its harder to forget the faces and voices of your tormenters.
pre 15 godina
ZK Glad you took the time to read some of the transcript, but I don't agree with you that the starting point should be the second half of Dragan's testimony. Nor should one only read the first part.
What do you mean that he helped Milosevic? Can you show me where his testimony helped Milosevic? I think that Dragan likely told the truth (within reason) and was not there to help either Milosevic (the man he previously believed to want him dead) or the prosecution.
In fact if you read the beginning of his testimony he outlines his motives.
I agree that Nice got all excited at the end, but hostile witness is too strong. And Nice (even backed by the UK) on his own can't be considered the entire 'West' either.
Are you suggesting that the extradition of Dragan is some kind of conspiracy? Like the Australian criminal justice system is in cahoots with the former prosecutor and his backers? This is not a claim I've heard from Dragan or his supporters.
I doubt it, rather extradition is the norm in (if you look at other cases) and the burden of proof seems to be on the accused to show that he will be persecuted or say tortured. It doesn't seem to be enough if you say you won't get a fair trial. In the UK I remember a number of cases where clearly an individual was arrested on trumped up charges and would face persecution, but that he / she was forced to return to 'face the music'.
That is what is happening here.
pre 15 godina
ZK read the transcripts, they are interesting in many ways and Dragan's testimony didn't take so long. I just skimmed through myself in 30 minutes...
Dragan on Seseljs men:
'Seselj, or at least that is how they ('Seselj's men') were introduced to me, had
6 sent a bus of what -- they called themselves Chetniks, but I have to
7 explain to give you a proper picture. The Chetniks that I saw arriving
8 were Chetniks that were highly reminiscent of the Chetniks from Bulajic's
9 film. Let me explain what I mean when I say that.
10 After the Second World War, a well-known film director, Bulajic,
11 directed partisan films presenting the Chetniks as dirty, bearded, drunk,
12 disorderly...'
There
4 were people with big stomachs and people who perhaps even
5 mentally were not absolutely fit, and there were some who simply did not
6 wish to take off their party insignias (rather like todays SRS MP's!!). So I adopted a very firm position
7 that if anyone wanted to wage war in Krajina, they had to be part of
8 either the security service, the police, or the JNA'
Milosevic getting rid of Dragan (due largely to his popularity with the opposition and hard but fair reputation in the media) + (all my brackets, above and below):
Q. Did you question Mr. Stanisic regarding who was requesting or who
9 was forbidding you from going back to the Krajina?
10 A. Yes. In principle, he said, "I can't tell you much. You will
11 understand that." But he said, "This is coming from the very top." My
12 understanding was that this should have either been the Minister of the
13 Interior or President Milosevic.
Before then Dragan he accused Milosevic directly of wanting him killed, but he drew back slightly on this (showing some self awareness of his tendancy to be thin skinned).
Nice (British secret services) got petulant about something at the end of his testimony, but it wasn't because Dragan said something supportive of Milosevic. Rather it was because he wouldn't say what the prosecution wanted if it wasn't true.
There is material in Dragan's Hague testimony that looks positive on him. With him being Serb did not give you a free pass to pilage.
I urge anybody who wants more insight into Dragan to read his testimony in full and to make their own conclusions.
Apologies to readers and B92 for this long post, but I believe it important for an educated opinion on Dragan.
pre 15 godina
Let's get this right, the croatian justice system can be trusted, yet the government is accused by the ICTY of deliberately hiding documents in relation to Operation Storm? Doesn't the 'trusted' croatian justice system have any influence over its own government?
And what what of Croatia's own little paramilitary rabble rouser, Mercep who unfortunately is still at liberty?
pre 15 godina
Transcripts of Captain Dragan's testimony at the Milosevic trial can be found here
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030219ED.htm
It continues here with Milosevic's cross examination beginning on Page 16567. This is good reading starting here and it seems my memory has served me well.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030220IT.htm
He did in fact help Milosevic and I'm sure the West didn't like that at all. The prosecution then considered him a hostile witness as can be seen on Page 16732 of the final part of his testimony.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030221IT.htm
pre 15 godina
I has been a while since reading the Milosevic transcripts bganon, but if my memory serves me right he backed Milosevic on many questions put to him and was later treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution. It may well be that I'm confusing him with another witness although I do believe it was Dragan that I have in mind.
pre 15 godina
ZK obviously you haven't watched Dragan at the Milosevic trial.
Dragan certainly did not end up defending him. Rather he accused Milosevic of orchestrating his removal from the battlefield. For sure Dragan didn't help the prosecution much, but my impression was that this was because Dragan had nothing of substance to incriminate Milosevic with.
On the other hand Dragan railed against Seselj's hordes of undisciplined, drunken 'cetniks' that operated in Croatia and this was confirmed by journals such as Vreme.
From what he has said I would be inclined to believe him innocent, but Dragan is thin skinned and nervous and that kind of personality might react in anger, as he might also be capable of great acts of mercy (I believe he has the support of a Croatian prisoner who stated he was treated more than fairly). It would be foolish to state that he is innocent, but I am quite confident that he isn't somebody who used 'war crime' tactics to achieve a military goal.
pss the arguments used in Serbia with regard to accused Serbs in Croatia are (this time at least) based on facts. You have tens if not hundreds of Serbs that were tried in absentia. There are secret lists of Serbs who are to be arrested at once if found within Croatian borders. The primary basis on which these lists are based is that:
they lived in Croatia
they are men
they were over the age of 16 at time war broke out
I visited Vukovar a few years back and was stopped and questioned by a Croatian secret policeman for no reason.
You have high cases such as Lora (and other less well known), which have judges open supporting the accused). That is something unheard of in Serbia, even if sadly, light sentences are the norm in Serbia. If you are interested in these injustices you can find some covered in Amnesty International reports in English.
As far as light sentences in Serbia are concerned you must also bear in mind that it won't only be for Scorpians or others found guilty / accused of war crimes. Unfortunately as we saw recently killing somebody by running them over in a car is also 'rewarded' with a light sentence...
Do you know how many Kosovo Albanians have been tried in Serbia proper since 1999. I don't know of one high profile trial. This trial of Dragan will be a show trial and the media will lap it up in Croatia.
Yes I do think its possible for fair trials to be held in the balkans. If it were up to me I would dismiss any judge that discriminated or gave too lenient sentences.
I actually support trials in Serbia, because I think special war crimes courts are more effective here than other former Jug countries. Serbia should lead the way. But there is still a lot of work to be done...
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I have no reason to doubt your reasoning, however is this not the same argument the Albanians are using about the recent arrests in Preshevo Valley, over war crimes in Kosovo.
Do you think any opposing side is going to give a fair trial to the other side in the balkans.
Another Canandian Serb this has nothing to do with the Hague, which is where all war crimes should be tried.
pre 15 godina
Even though he was a prosecution witness during the Milosevic trial, he ended up defending him and I suspect this is payback for not towing the line.
I'm sure if he went against Milosevic there would be no case against him now. This guy is Serbian/Australian and has achieved much in his life. He will most definitely not receive a fair trial in Croatia - that much is certain and shame on Australia for extraditing one of its civilians under such circumstances.
pre 15 godina
pacifist,
how was it that all the criminals came into Kosovo from Albania. These same criminals are now being rewarded.
Why is Germany still a state today after all her war crimes?
Why do Albanians cause havoc in every country they reside in?
Why do you consider all Serbians to be war criminals?
Why was Milosevic not found guilty?
pre 15 godina
What a joke. Croatia to try someone for war crimes?? They can't even host an international sporting event without burning or banning opposing flags, attacking opposing fans with baseball bats, destroying foreign cars....Give me a break. This country celebrates a genocidal event as a national holiday. The racism and intolerance demonstrated by this country is only equalled to present days Kosovo. They are not fit try Donald Duck of Goofy for shoplifting, let alone any other individual for supposed 'war crimes'.
Bye the way, Captain Dragan led a very disciplined army in its fight against fascism and extremism, and is a true hero.
pre 15 godina
How could a criminal fly to Australia undetected. Similarly, Karadzic went to Milan to watch Inter playing.
pre 15 godina
I guess the Hague requires more contestants for their game show. Too bad the contestants are always of Serbian ethnicity. Anyways, i commend this soldier on his great achievements and thank him for protecting Serbs on Croation soil.
pre 15 godina
If I had any confidence in Croatian justice, particularly with respect to Serbs receiving a fair trial, I would say 'Great, let him be tried'.
I suspect that the case against him would collapse in a normal situation.
However, Croatians will see it as their national duty to ensure that Dragan is found guilty. Witnesses will appear from nowhere, hidden files would be found, perhaps recordings and all sorts. The media will universally lable Dragan as guilty before and during his trial publishing revelations. Even in moderate circles he will be the Serb, whom one is free to hate.
For that reason I do not support the extradition of Dragan to Croatia, although I would not mind him being tried by an Australian court for the same offenses, were it possible.
I can't say whether him / his units committed war crimes or not, but I am CERTAIN that if so, they committed less war crimes than the large majority of regular and irregular units on the battlefields of former Jugoslavija.
pre 15 godina
What a joke. Croatia to try someone for war crimes?? They can't even host an international sporting event without burning or banning opposing flags, attacking opposing fans with baseball bats, destroying foreign cars....Give me a break. This country celebrates a genocidal event as a national holiday. The racism and intolerance demonstrated by this country is only equalled to present days Kosovo. They are not fit try Donald Duck of Goofy for shoplifting, let alone any other individual for supposed 'war crimes'.
Bye the way, Captain Dragan led a very disciplined army in its fight against fascism and extremism, and is a true hero.
pre 15 godina
I guess the Hague requires more contestants for their game show. Too bad the contestants are always of Serbian ethnicity. Anyways, i commend this soldier on his great achievements and thank him for protecting Serbs on Croation soil.
pre 15 godina
Even though he was a prosecution witness during the Milosevic trial, he ended up defending him and I suspect this is payback for not towing the line.
I'm sure if he went against Milosevic there would be no case against him now. This guy is Serbian/Australian and has achieved much in his life. He will most definitely not receive a fair trial in Croatia - that much is certain and shame on Australia for extraditing one of its civilians under such circumstances.
pre 15 godina
If I had any confidence in Croatian justice, particularly with respect to Serbs receiving a fair trial, I would say 'Great, let him be tried'.
I suspect that the case against him would collapse in a normal situation.
However, Croatians will see it as their national duty to ensure that Dragan is found guilty. Witnesses will appear from nowhere, hidden files would be found, perhaps recordings and all sorts. The media will universally lable Dragan as guilty before and during his trial publishing revelations. Even in moderate circles he will be the Serb, whom one is free to hate.
For that reason I do not support the extradition of Dragan to Croatia, although I would not mind him being tried by an Australian court for the same offenses, were it possible.
I can't say whether him / his units committed war crimes or not, but I am CERTAIN that if so, they committed less war crimes than the large majority of regular and irregular units on the battlefields of former Jugoslavija.
pre 15 godina
pacifist,
how was it that all the criminals came into Kosovo from Albania. These same criminals are now being rewarded.
Why is Germany still a state today after all her war crimes?
Why do Albanians cause havoc in every country they reside in?
Why do you consider all Serbians to be war criminals?
Why was Milosevic not found guilty?
pre 15 godina
BG-Anon
Another Krajina Serb bites the dust and you pop the champagne again.
I know B-92 allows you to post on all things Krajina but know that this decision by the " Kangaroo" court is an affront to it's own citizenry.
If they start exporting their citizens on the flimsy case the Horvats have against him then that makes Gitmo a human rights paradise.
Please stop your comments on Krajina, It is best left to people who actually know what they're talking about.
Captain D was a professional soldier, something that would need a lot of explaining here I feel but I will not waste my time....
pre 15 godina
ZK obviously you haven't watched Dragan at the Milosevic trial.
Dragan certainly did not end up defending him. Rather he accused Milosevic of orchestrating his removal from the battlefield. For sure Dragan didn't help the prosecution much, but my impression was that this was because Dragan had nothing of substance to incriminate Milosevic with.
On the other hand Dragan railed against Seselj's hordes of undisciplined, drunken 'cetniks' that operated in Croatia and this was confirmed by journals such as Vreme.
From what he has said I would be inclined to believe him innocent, but Dragan is thin skinned and nervous and that kind of personality might react in anger, as he might also be capable of great acts of mercy (I believe he has the support of a Croatian prisoner who stated he was treated more than fairly). It would be foolish to state that he is innocent, but I am quite confident that he isn't somebody who used 'war crime' tactics to achieve a military goal.
pss the arguments used in Serbia with regard to accused Serbs in Croatia are (this time at least) based on facts. You have tens if not hundreds of Serbs that were tried in absentia. There are secret lists of Serbs who are to be arrested at once if found within Croatian borders. The primary basis on which these lists are based is that:
they lived in Croatia
they are men
they were over the age of 16 at time war broke out
I visited Vukovar a few years back and was stopped and questioned by a Croatian secret policeman for no reason.
You have high cases such as Lora (and other less well known), which have judges open supporting the accused). That is something unheard of in Serbia, even if sadly, light sentences are the norm in Serbia. If you are interested in these injustices you can find some covered in Amnesty International reports in English.
As far as light sentences in Serbia are concerned you must also bear in mind that it won't only be for Scorpians or others found guilty / accused of war crimes. Unfortunately as we saw recently killing somebody by running them over in a car is also 'rewarded' with a light sentence...
Do you know how many Kosovo Albanians have been tried in Serbia proper since 1999. I don't know of one high profile trial. This trial of Dragan will be a show trial and the media will lap it up in Croatia.
Yes I do think its possible for fair trials to be held in the balkans. If it were up to me I would dismiss any judge that discriminated or gave too lenient sentences.
I actually support trials in Serbia, because I think special war crimes courts are more effective here than other former Jug countries. Serbia should lead the way. But there is still a lot of work to be done...
pre 15 godina
I has been a while since reading the Milosevic transcripts bganon, but if my memory serves me right he backed Milosevic on many questions put to him and was later treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution. It may well be that I'm confusing him with another witness although I do believe it was Dragan that I have in mind.
pre 15 godina
Why isn't the Croat Miro Bajramovic in prison for killing over 80 Serb civilians - most of them tortured with electricity while imprisoned before they were murdered by Tomislav Mercep.
The same Tomislav Mercep who started the killings in Vukovar by arresting Serb civilians, torturing them, killing them, then dumping their bodies in the rivers or elsewhere. There are photos of identified Serbs from Vukovar who were killed by the Croat police and Mercep starting from the very beginning of the war.
Tomislav Mercep was protected by the Croat government and taken out of Vukovar before its fall, and from there he formed a torture and killing unit with Miro Bajramovic and they killed several hundred at least. I mean, if just one man from the unit - Bajramovic - admits he killed 86 people - then how many must have the entire unit, "Autumn Rain", have killed?
pre 15 godina
How could a criminal fly to Australia undetected. Similarly, Karadzic went to Milan to watch Inter playing.
pre 15 godina
Let's get this right, the croatian justice system can be trusted, yet the government is accused by the ICTY of deliberately hiding documents in relation to Operation Storm? Doesn't the 'trusted' croatian justice system have any influence over its own government?
And what what of Croatia's own little paramilitary rabble rouser, Mercep who unfortunately is still at liberty?
pre 15 godina
ZK read the transcripts, they are interesting in many ways and Dragan's testimony didn't take so long. I just skimmed through myself in 30 minutes...
Dragan on Seseljs men:
'Seselj, or at least that is how they ('Seselj's men') were introduced to me, had
6 sent a bus of what -- they called themselves Chetniks, but I have to
7 explain to give you a proper picture. The Chetniks that I saw arriving
8 were Chetniks that were highly reminiscent of the Chetniks from Bulajic's
9 film. Let me explain what I mean when I say that.
10 After the Second World War, a well-known film director, Bulajic,
11 directed partisan films presenting the Chetniks as dirty, bearded, drunk,
12 disorderly...'
There
4 were people with big stomachs and people who perhaps even
5 mentally were not absolutely fit, and there were some who simply did not
6 wish to take off their party insignias (rather like todays SRS MP's!!). So I adopted a very firm position
7 that if anyone wanted to wage war in Krajina, they had to be part of
8 either the security service, the police, or the JNA'
Milosevic getting rid of Dragan (due largely to his popularity with the opposition and hard but fair reputation in the media) + (all my brackets, above and below):
Q. Did you question Mr. Stanisic regarding who was requesting or who
9 was forbidding you from going back to the Krajina?
10 A. Yes. In principle, he said, "I can't tell you much. You will
11 understand that." But he said, "This is coming from the very top." My
12 understanding was that this should have either been the Minister of the
13 Interior or President Milosevic.
Before then Dragan he accused Milosevic directly of wanting him killed, but he drew back slightly on this (showing some self awareness of his tendancy to be thin skinned).
Nice (British secret services) got petulant about something at the end of his testimony, but it wasn't because Dragan said something supportive of Milosevic. Rather it was because he wouldn't say what the prosecution wanted if it wasn't true.
There is material in Dragan's Hague testimony that looks positive on him. With him being Serb did not give you a free pass to pilage.
I urge anybody who wants more insight into Dragan to read his testimony in full and to make their own conclusions.
Apologies to readers and B92 for this long post, but I believe it important for an educated opinion on Dragan.
pre 15 godina
ZK Glad you took the time to read some of the transcript, but I don't agree with you that the starting point should be the second half of Dragan's testimony. Nor should one only read the first part.
What do you mean that he helped Milosevic? Can you show me where his testimony helped Milosevic? I think that Dragan likely told the truth (within reason) and was not there to help either Milosevic (the man he previously believed to want him dead) or the prosecution.
In fact if you read the beginning of his testimony he outlines his motives.
I agree that Nice got all excited at the end, but hostile witness is too strong. And Nice (even backed by the UK) on his own can't be considered the entire 'West' either.
Are you suggesting that the extradition of Dragan is some kind of conspiracy? Like the Australian criminal justice system is in cahoots with the former prosecutor and his backers? This is not a claim I've heard from Dragan or his supporters.
I doubt it, rather extradition is the norm in (if you look at other cases) and the burden of proof seems to be on the accused to show that he will be persecuted or say tortured. It doesn't seem to be enough if you say you won't get a fair trial. In the UK I remember a number of cases where clearly an individual was arrested on trumped up charges and would face persecution, but that he / she was forced to return to 'face the music'.
That is what is happening here.
pre 15 godina
bganon, I read most of the Milosevic transcripts apart from the last few months where I had the intention to catch up if it wasn't for his death.
If anyone is interested I do suggest they read all of Captain Dragan's testimony but for those that want to read Milosevic's cross-examination then I have pointed to where that begins. What he did was to say that Milosevic had very little influence on the situation in Croatia as the indictment would otherwise suggest. He backed Milosevic up on pretty much every question he asked and he was then treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution.
Read the links. It's all there and yes, I believe that this trial in Croatia has something to do with his testimony at the NATO court. He embarrassed NATO and therefore this NATO candidate (Croatia) is now used to punish him.
pre 15 godina
So you have those on the one side who claim Dragan is a hero and are not interested in his testimony or wondering if it was possible that his forces committed war crimes. On the other you have those who believe him to be guilty long before he enters a courtroom. Frankly, its a little sad.
Dino, are you saying that Croatia didn't have active, illegal paramilitary forces that committed war crimes? In the Jugoslav context Croatian troops were illegal forces operating on Jugoslav territory. And just because a couple of witnesses (which you must admit may well have been coached by Croatian DB) have turned up to testify to Dragan's brutality does not mean what they are saying is true, does it? This is a matter of national significance to Croatia. Dragan must be convicted, whether he is guilty or not.
It is a show trial and you know it and most Croatians will see it in these simplistic terms:
'Was Croatian independence war just?' If you believe it was then Dragan is guilty, if you believe it wasn't then Dragan was innocent. (Yeah, its what the Americans call a 'no brainer'. People are hardly capable of understanding the question, so quite understandably I'm worried about Dragan getting a fair trial. He does deserve a fair trial you know.
Jen I'm glad you posted because that is exactly what I mean. We are talking about Dragan's case and you are referring to a Canadian in Vukovar, you will have to tell me what you mean by that.
But what you say about neighbours is exactly my point - yes some turned the other way, immoral yes but not criminal. There were also cases whether neighbours helped each other. But put that aside, the fact that some looked the other way, or even took part in turning against their neighbours has nothing to do with Dragan. He is not on trial for their choices. The ONLY thing that he should be judged on is his war conduct. Remember he has already spent 3 years in an Australian jail - the chances are the Croatian judiciary will have to ensure that he receives a long sentence or there will be a public outcry. Be honest isn't it true that the man must be procliamed guilty and that he must be sentenced more than 3 years, whether he is guilty or not?
Rashan your post makes no sense. I am against the trial in Croatia, because I don't believe a fair trial is possible. As for 'my comments' on Krajina, they are not my comments they are Dragans direct quotes from the Hague transcript. None of my comments had to do with Krajina. Learn to read properly before you criticise what I said. Or at least state clearly if you believe that Dragan lied in his testimony.
ZK it would be great to sit down with you with a copy of Dragan's testimony. The difference between us is that you are going to the subject (every subject on the former Jug) from a certain position. I am constantly refining my position depending on new facts / facts I was unaware of. You are interpreting Milosevic's cross examination of Dragan to prove your position. I am advocating reading all the transcripts and then deciding. And so it goes on with every topic. For example your opinion that Croatia wants to try Dragan having anything to do with seeking NATO membership is nonsense and shows little understanding of what the Homeland war and the likes of Dragan means to Croatians. It has nothing to do with NATO membership and everything to do with Croatian contemporary politics and the birth of Croatia as an independent state.
You probably know much more about the Australian justice system than I do, but I know about the British system. Unfair extradition is common, no conspiracy is necessary.
pre 15 godina
Of course the most stunning success of the croat justice system is that no one has been tried and sentenced for the strangling of Saša Gešovski (a macedonian JNA conscript) by a mob in Split on May 6, 1991 (as reported on B92 not so long ago). They know who the murderer is as it was actually broadcast on tv where the soldiers were surrounded by a mob.
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I have no reason to doubt your reasoning, however is this not the same argument the Albanians are using about the recent arrests in Preshevo Valley, over war crimes in Kosovo.
Do you think any opposing side is going to give a fair trial to the other side in the balkans.
Another Canandian Serb this has nothing to do with the Hague, which is where all war crimes should be tried.
pre 15 godina
Transcripts of Captain Dragan's testimony at the Milosevic trial can be found here
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030219ED.htm
It continues here with Milosevic's cross examination beginning on Page 16567. This is good reading starting here and it seems my memory has served me well.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030220IT.htm
He did in fact help Milosevic and I'm sure the West didn't like that at all. The prosecution then considered him a hostile witness as can be seen on Page 16732 of the final part of his testimony.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030221IT.htm
pre 15 godina
Dino,
i am certain according to your story, that Captain Dragan killed the Croat in self defence.
Wasn't Croatia's army illegal and treasonous against the state of Jugoslavia.
pre 15 godina
bganon, nothing to do with Croatia's prospect for NATO membership but more to do with Captain Dragan upsetting the NATO court so they found a way to punish him through Croatia. It should be fairly obvious by now that any Serbian with any influence during that period who went against NATO have been put out of action one way or another.
pre 15 godina
ZK is Australia even a member of NATO??
No, I can't swallow this one. Of course some weren't happy that Dragan's testimony wasn't, in their minds, strong enough in favour of the prosecution but come on this guy Dragan small fry for them. For Croatia on the other hand he is HUGE. An opportunity to show how right they were to ethnically cleanse warmongering Serbs.
Are they really going to pursue Dragan pulling strings through the Australian justice system. Frankly, why bother when the judicial system would likely pack him off to Croatia anyway.
You are seeing too many ghosts under the bed.
Dino abolute rubbish. Jugoslavija ceased existing at the earliest at the proclaimation of independence. These underhand Croatian attempts to potray JNA activity before then as that of an 'invader' or 'outside force' is absolutely false. The legality of the independence proclamation is another fact we can argue about, but what I said above is fact. Thus Jugoslavija in no way ceased to exist with the 'bureacratic revolution' in Vojvodina. For sure it was bus in a crowd time, but that was another matter.
And this defence against ethnic cleansing is almost amusing. So any leaders that tell their people to leave because they fear they will be murdered caused ethnic cleansing?!!!
We must track down the statements of Croatian, Albanian and other leaders to see if they advised their populations to leave rather than be killed.
It will mean that precisely nobody is guilty of ethnic cleansing.
pre 15 godina
Its simple, Dragan was an officer in an illegal paramilitary force. He beat up citizens whom he arrested but were no danger and one died. Its not a show trial and if it is, its only because of circumstances regarding his arrest.
pre 15 godina
Dino...
First what was going on in serbia whit vojvodina and kosovo does not give the reason to other republics to separate from yugo. What was done needed to be done, they were going the way of independence and it needed to be stoped.
Milosevic rised nacionalism, but its exactly what all other yugo presidents have done. They all did the same thing.
There was a way to get independence for all yugo republics in peace but its not what Tudjman, Alija and other wanted cause it could take a deceny or two and they will not remain on power.
If the president change the process of separation may stop if the new president is pro yugo. This scenario could easily happen in bosnia.
The only way to do it immediately was a war. And it was clear to everybody. The only thing yugo presidents wanted is a power and right now! Its a typical balkan mentality.
I think that its very good that yugo have braked but it brokeup the wrong way.
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I cant believe you were questiones in vukovar without reason.Please tell us why a canadian was in vukovar. Expand on the story. By the way your 3 reasons for people being sentenced in abstentia failed to include the fact that the people who used to be neighbours and friends of the accused witnessed certain acts of violence. people can forgive, but its harder to forget the faces and voices of your tormenters.
pre 15 godina
What a coincidence. Only a couple of days after I post how Croatia is hiding Operation Storm documents from the ICTY and is thus hardly to be trusted in criminal matters, I find this on B92:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=02&dd=05&nav_id=56931
Brammertz still chasing Storm documents
pre 15 godina
Another Canadian Serb,
Croatia was part of a federation which dissolved. Yugoslavia stopped existing and funcitoning when Milosevic installed puppet leaders in Vojvodina and Kosovo. Presidency didnt function, so how can a country exist?
Then UN determined that there was a legal basis for separation of all states and which was later recognised by Jugoslavija. So Serbia by recognising independence of Slovenia etc obviously recognsed they were able to do so. So not quiet sure what is illegal. Military stopped listening to its president, ie. Mesic, so there was no Yugoslavia.
Serbian argument that Croatia had to get Serbia's permission to leave a federation is illogical and doesnt exist anywhere else. Its a play on words.
But there was everything illegal about Milosevic interferring in affairs of another country, attempting to annex parts of another country, aiding another country into an armed rebellion politically and militarily, activly encoured a mass exodus of population from another country (I still find it amazing that people consider this as cleansing given that RSK leadership testified to ordering evacuation prior to Storm, there are television interviews, documents with Babic signatures and his statements).
There is nothign LEGAL will all of that above so serbia cant call on a law that itself broke and cry victim whenever it benefits itself.
pre 15 godina
What a joke. Croatia to try someone for war crimes?? They can't even host an international sporting event without burning or banning opposing flags, attacking opposing fans with baseball bats, destroying foreign cars....Give me a break. This country celebrates a genocidal event as a national holiday. The racism and intolerance demonstrated by this country is only equalled to present days Kosovo. They are not fit try Donald Duck of Goofy for shoplifting, let alone any other individual for supposed 'war crimes'.
Bye the way, Captain Dragan led a very disciplined army in its fight against fascism and extremism, and is a true hero.
pre 15 godina
I guess the Hague requires more contestants for their game show. Too bad the contestants are always of Serbian ethnicity. Anyways, i commend this soldier on his great achievements and thank him for protecting Serbs on Croation soil.
pre 15 godina
Its simple, Dragan was an officer in an illegal paramilitary force. He beat up citizens whom he arrested but were no danger and one died. Its not a show trial and if it is, its only because of circumstances regarding his arrest.
pre 15 godina
If I had any confidence in Croatian justice, particularly with respect to Serbs receiving a fair trial, I would say 'Great, let him be tried'.
I suspect that the case against him would collapse in a normal situation.
However, Croatians will see it as their national duty to ensure that Dragan is found guilty. Witnesses will appear from nowhere, hidden files would be found, perhaps recordings and all sorts. The media will universally lable Dragan as guilty before and during his trial publishing revelations. Even in moderate circles he will be the Serb, whom one is free to hate.
For that reason I do not support the extradition of Dragan to Croatia, although I would not mind him being tried by an Australian court for the same offenses, were it possible.
I can't say whether him / his units committed war crimes or not, but I am CERTAIN that if so, they committed less war crimes than the large majority of regular and irregular units on the battlefields of former Jugoslavija.
pre 15 godina
How could a criminal fly to Australia undetected. Similarly, Karadzic went to Milan to watch Inter playing.
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I have no reason to doubt your reasoning, however is this not the same argument the Albanians are using about the recent arrests in Preshevo Valley, over war crimes in Kosovo.
Do you think any opposing side is going to give a fair trial to the other side in the balkans.
Another Canandian Serb this has nothing to do with the Hague, which is where all war crimes should be tried.
pre 15 godina
pacifist,
how was it that all the criminals came into Kosovo from Albania. These same criminals are now being rewarded.
Why is Germany still a state today after all her war crimes?
Why do Albanians cause havoc in every country they reside in?
Why do you consider all Serbians to be war criminals?
Why was Milosevic not found guilty?
pre 15 godina
BG-Anon
Another Krajina Serb bites the dust and you pop the champagne again.
I know B-92 allows you to post on all things Krajina but know that this decision by the " Kangaroo" court is an affront to it's own citizenry.
If they start exporting their citizens on the flimsy case the Horvats have against him then that makes Gitmo a human rights paradise.
Please stop your comments on Krajina, It is best left to people who actually know what they're talking about.
Captain D was a professional soldier, something that would need a lot of explaining here I feel but I will not waste my time....
pre 15 godina
Even though he was a prosecution witness during the Milosevic trial, he ended up defending him and I suspect this is payback for not towing the line.
I'm sure if he went against Milosevic there would be no case against him now. This guy is Serbian/Australian and has achieved much in his life. He will most definitely not receive a fair trial in Croatia - that much is certain and shame on Australia for extraditing one of its civilians under such circumstances.
pre 15 godina
Another Canadian Serb,
Croatia was part of a federation which dissolved. Yugoslavia stopped existing and funcitoning when Milosevic installed puppet leaders in Vojvodina and Kosovo. Presidency didnt function, so how can a country exist?
Then UN determined that there was a legal basis for separation of all states and which was later recognised by Jugoslavija. So Serbia by recognising independence of Slovenia etc obviously recognsed they were able to do so. So not quiet sure what is illegal. Military stopped listening to its president, ie. Mesic, so there was no Yugoslavia.
Serbian argument that Croatia had to get Serbia's permission to leave a federation is illogical and doesnt exist anywhere else. Its a play on words.
But there was everything illegal about Milosevic interferring in affairs of another country, attempting to annex parts of another country, aiding another country into an armed rebellion politically and militarily, activly encoured a mass exodus of population from another country (I still find it amazing that people consider this as cleansing given that RSK leadership testified to ordering evacuation prior to Storm, there are television interviews, documents with Babic signatures and his statements).
There is nothign LEGAL will all of that above so serbia cant call on a law that itself broke and cry victim whenever it benefits itself.
pre 15 godina
bganon,
I cant believe you were questiones in vukovar without reason.Please tell us why a canadian was in vukovar. Expand on the story. By the way your 3 reasons for people being sentenced in abstentia failed to include the fact that the people who used to be neighbours and friends of the accused witnessed certain acts of violence. people can forgive, but its harder to forget the faces and voices of your tormenters.
pre 15 godina
bganon, I read most of the Milosevic transcripts apart from the last few months where I had the intention to catch up if it wasn't for his death.
If anyone is interested I do suggest they read all of Captain Dragan's testimony but for those that want to read Milosevic's cross-examination then I have pointed to where that begins. What he did was to say that Milosevic had very little influence on the situation in Croatia as the indictment would otherwise suggest. He backed Milosevic up on pretty much every question he asked and he was then treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution.
Read the links. It's all there and yes, I believe that this trial in Croatia has something to do with his testimony at the NATO court. He embarrassed NATO and therefore this NATO candidate (Croatia) is now used to punish him.
pre 15 godina
ZK obviously you haven't watched Dragan at the Milosevic trial.
Dragan certainly did not end up defending him. Rather he accused Milosevic of orchestrating his removal from the battlefield. For sure Dragan didn't help the prosecution much, but my impression was that this was because Dragan had nothing of substance to incriminate Milosevic with.
On the other hand Dragan railed against Seselj's hordes of undisciplined, drunken 'cetniks' that operated in Croatia and this was confirmed by journals such as Vreme.
From what he has said I would be inclined to believe him innocent, but Dragan is thin skinned and nervous and that kind of personality might react in anger, as he might also be capable of great acts of mercy (I believe he has the support of a Croatian prisoner who stated he was treated more than fairly). It would be foolish to state that he is innocent, but I am quite confident that he isn't somebody who used 'war crime' tactics to achieve a military goal.
pss the arguments used in Serbia with regard to accused Serbs in Croatia are (this time at least) based on facts. You have tens if not hundreds of Serbs that were tried in absentia. There are secret lists of Serbs who are to be arrested at once if found within Croatian borders. The primary basis on which these lists are based is that:
they lived in Croatia
they are men
they were over the age of 16 at time war broke out
I visited Vukovar a few years back and was stopped and questioned by a Croatian secret policeman for no reason.
You have high cases such as Lora (and other less well known), which have judges open supporting the accused). That is something unheard of in Serbia, even if sadly, light sentences are the norm in Serbia. If you are interested in these injustices you can find some covered in Amnesty International reports in English.
As far as light sentences in Serbia are concerned you must also bear in mind that it won't only be for Scorpians or others found guilty / accused of war crimes. Unfortunately as we saw recently killing somebody by running them over in a car is also 'rewarded' with a light sentence...
Do you know how many Kosovo Albanians have been tried in Serbia proper since 1999. I don't know of one high profile trial. This trial of Dragan will be a show trial and the media will lap it up in Croatia.
Yes I do think its possible for fair trials to be held in the balkans. If it were up to me I would dismiss any judge that discriminated or gave too lenient sentences.
I actually support trials in Serbia, because I think special war crimes courts are more effective here than other former Jug countries. Serbia should lead the way. But there is still a lot of work to be done...
pre 15 godina
I has been a while since reading the Milosevic transcripts bganon, but if my memory serves me right he backed Milosevic on many questions put to him and was later treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution. It may well be that I'm confusing him with another witness although I do believe it was Dragan that I have in mind.
pre 15 godina
Let's get this right, the croatian justice system can be trusted, yet the government is accused by the ICTY of deliberately hiding documents in relation to Operation Storm? Doesn't the 'trusted' croatian justice system have any influence over its own government?
And what what of Croatia's own little paramilitary rabble rouser, Mercep who unfortunately is still at liberty?
pre 15 godina
So you have those on the one side who claim Dragan is a hero and are not interested in his testimony or wondering if it was possible that his forces committed war crimes. On the other you have those who believe him to be guilty long before he enters a courtroom. Frankly, its a little sad.
Dino, are you saying that Croatia didn't have active, illegal paramilitary forces that committed war crimes? In the Jugoslav context Croatian troops were illegal forces operating on Jugoslav territory. And just because a couple of witnesses (which you must admit may well have been coached by Croatian DB) have turned up to testify to Dragan's brutality does not mean what they are saying is true, does it? This is a matter of national significance to Croatia. Dragan must be convicted, whether he is guilty or not.
It is a show trial and you know it and most Croatians will see it in these simplistic terms:
'Was Croatian independence war just?' If you believe it was then Dragan is guilty, if you believe it wasn't then Dragan was innocent. (Yeah, its what the Americans call a 'no brainer'. People are hardly capable of understanding the question, so quite understandably I'm worried about Dragan getting a fair trial. He does deserve a fair trial you know.
Jen I'm glad you posted because that is exactly what I mean. We are talking about Dragan's case and you are referring to a Canadian in Vukovar, you will have to tell me what you mean by that.
But what you say about neighbours is exactly my point - yes some turned the other way, immoral yes but not criminal. There were also cases whether neighbours helped each other. But put that aside, the fact that some looked the other way, or even took part in turning against their neighbours has nothing to do with Dragan. He is not on trial for their choices. The ONLY thing that he should be judged on is his war conduct. Remember he has already spent 3 years in an Australian jail - the chances are the Croatian judiciary will have to ensure that he receives a long sentence or there will be a public outcry. Be honest isn't it true that the man must be procliamed guilty and that he must be sentenced more than 3 years, whether he is guilty or not?
Rashan your post makes no sense. I am against the trial in Croatia, because I don't believe a fair trial is possible. As for 'my comments' on Krajina, they are not my comments they are Dragans direct quotes from the Hague transcript. None of my comments had to do with Krajina. Learn to read properly before you criticise what I said. Or at least state clearly if you believe that Dragan lied in his testimony.
ZK it would be great to sit down with you with a copy of Dragan's testimony. The difference between us is that you are going to the subject (every subject on the former Jug) from a certain position. I am constantly refining my position depending on new facts / facts I was unaware of. You are interpreting Milosevic's cross examination of Dragan to prove your position. I am advocating reading all the transcripts and then deciding. And so it goes on with every topic. For example your opinion that Croatia wants to try Dragan having anything to do with seeking NATO membership is nonsense and shows little understanding of what the Homeland war and the likes of Dragan means to Croatians. It has nothing to do with NATO membership and everything to do with Croatian contemporary politics and the birth of Croatia as an independent state.
You probably know much more about the Australian justice system than I do, but I know about the British system. Unfair extradition is common, no conspiracy is necessary.
pre 15 godina
bganon, nothing to do with Croatia's prospect for NATO membership but more to do with Captain Dragan upsetting the NATO court so they found a way to punish him through Croatia. It should be fairly obvious by now that any Serbian with any influence during that period who went against NATO have been put out of action one way or another.
pre 15 godina
Transcripts of Captain Dragan's testimony at the Milosevic trial can be found here
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030219ED.htm
It continues here with Milosevic's cross examination beginning on Page 16567. This is good reading starting here and it seems my memory has served me well.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030220IT.htm
He did in fact help Milosevic and I'm sure the West didn't like that at all. The prosecution then considered him a hostile witness as can be seen on Page 16732 of the final part of his testimony.
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/trans/en/030221IT.htm
pre 15 godina
ZK Glad you took the time to read some of the transcript, but I don't agree with you that the starting point should be the second half of Dragan's testimony. Nor should one only read the first part.
What do you mean that he helped Milosevic? Can you show me where his testimony helped Milosevic? I think that Dragan likely told the truth (within reason) and was not there to help either Milosevic (the man he previously believed to want him dead) or the prosecution.
In fact if you read the beginning of his testimony he outlines his motives.
I agree that Nice got all excited at the end, but hostile witness is too strong. And Nice (even backed by the UK) on his own can't be considered the entire 'West' either.
Are you suggesting that the extradition of Dragan is some kind of conspiracy? Like the Australian criminal justice system is in cahoots with the former prosecutor and his backers? This is not a claim I've heard from Dragan or his supporters.
I doubt it, rather extradition is the norm in (if you look at other cases) and the burden of proof seems to be on the accused to show that he will be persecuted or say tortured. It doesn't seem to be enough if you say you won't get a fair trial. In the UK I remember a number of cases where clearly an individual was arrested on trumped up charges and would face persecution, but that he / she was forced to return to 'face the music'.
That is what is happening here.
pre 15 godina
ZK read the transcripts, they are interesting in many ways and Dragan's testimony didn't take so long. I just skimmed through myself in 30 minutes...
Dragan on Seseljs men:
'Seselj, or at least that is how they ('Seselj's men') were introduced to me, had
6 sent a bus of what -- they called themselves Chetniks, but I have to
7 explain to give you a proper picture. The Chetniks that I saw arriving
8 were Chetniks that were highly reminiscent of the Chetniks from Bulajic's
9 film. Let me explain what I mean when I say that.
10 After the Second World War, a well-known film director, Bulajic,
11 directed partisan films presenting the Chetniks as dirty, bearded, drunk,
12 disorderly...'
There
4 were people with big stomachs and people who perhaps even
5 mentally were not absolutely fit, and there were some who simply did not
6 wish to take off their party insignias (rather like todays SRS MP's!!). So I adopted a very firm position
7 that if anyone wanted to wage war in Krajina, they had to be part of
8 either the security service, the police, or the JNA'
Milosevic getting rid of Dragan (due largely to his popularity with the opposition and hard but fair reputation in the media) + (all my brackets, above and below):
Q. Did you question Mr. Stanisic regarding who was requesting or who
9 was forbidding you from going back to the Krajina?
10 A. Yes. In principle, he said, "I can't tell you much. You will
11 understand that." But he said, "This is coming from the very top." My
12 understanding was that this should have either been the Minister of the
13 Interior or President Milosevic.
Before then Dragan he accused Milosevic directly of wanting him killed, but he drew back slightly on this (showing some self awareness of his tendancy to be thin skinned).
Nice (British secret services) got petulant about something at the end of his testimony, but it wasn't because Dragan said something supportive of Milosevic. Rather it was because he wouldn't say what the prosecution wanted if it wasn't true.
There is material in Dragan's Hague testimony that looks positive on him. With him being Serb did not give you a free pass to pilage.
I urge anybody who wants more insight into Dragan to read his testimony in full and to make their own conclusions.
Apologies to readers and B92 for this long post, but I believe it important for an educated opinion on Dragan.
pre 15 godina
Why isn't the Croat Miro Bajramovic in prison for killing over 80 Serb civilians - most of them tortured with electricity while imprisoned before they were murdered by Tomislav Mercep.
The same Tomislav Mercep who started the killings in Vukovar by arresting Serb civilians, torturing them, killing them, then dumping their bodies in the rivers or elsewhere. There are photos of identified Serbs from Vukovar who were killed by the Croat police and Mercep starting from the very beginning of the war.
Tomislav Mercep was protected by the Croat government and taken out of Vukovar before its fall, and from there he formed a torture and killing unit with Miro Bajramovic and they killed several hundred at least. I mean, if just one man from the unit - Bajramovic - admits he killed 86 people - then how many must have the entire unit, "Autumn Rain", have killed?
pre 15 godina
Dino,
i am certain according to your story, that Captain Dragan killed the Croat in self defence.
Wasn't Croatia's army illegal and treasonous against the state of Jugoslavia.
pre 15 godina
Of course the most stunning success of the croat justice system is that no one has been tried and sentenced for the strangling of Saša Gešovski (a macedonian JNA conscript) by a mob in Split on May 6, 1991 (as reported on B92 not so long ago). They know who the murderer is as it was actually broadcast on tv where the soldiers were surrounded by a mob.
pre 15 godina
ZK is Australia even a member of NATO??
No, I can't swallow this one. Of course some weren't happy that Dragan's testimony wasn't, in their minds, strong enough in favour of the prosecution but come on this guy Dragan small fry for them. For Croatia on the other hand he is HUGE. An opportunity to show how right they were to ethnically cleanse warmongering Serbs.
Are they really going to pursue Dragan pulling strings through the Australian justice system. Frankly, why bother when the judicial system would likely pack him off to Croatia anyway.
You are seeing too many ghosts under the bed.
Dino abolute rubbish. Jugoslavija ceased existing at the earliest at the proclaimation of independence. These underhand Croatian attempts to potray JNA activity before then as that of an 'invader' or 'outside force' is absolutely false. The legality of the independence proclamation is another fact we can argue about, but what I said above is fact. Thus Jugoslavija in no way ceased to exist with the 'bureacratic revolution' in Vojvodina. For sure it was bus in a crowd time, but that was another matter.
And this defence against ethnic cleansing is almost amusing. So any leaders that tell their people to leave because they fear they will be murdered caused ethnic cleansing?!!!
We must track down the statements of Croatian, Albanian and other leaders to see if they advised their populations to leave rather than be killed.
It will mean that precisely nobody is guilty of ethnic cleansing.
pre 15 godina
Dino...
First what was going on in serbia whit vojvodina and kosovo does not give the reason to other republics to separate from yugo. What was done needed to be done, they were going the way of independence and it needed to be stoped.
Milosevic rised nacionalism, but its exactly what all other yugo presidents have done. They all did the same thing.
There was a way to get independence for all yugo republics in peace but its not what Tudjman, Alija and other wanted cause it could take a deceny or two and they will not remain on power.
If the president change the process of separation may stop if the new president is pro yugo. This scenario could easily happen in bosnia.
The only way to do it immediately was a war. And it was clear to everybody. The only thing yugo presidents wanted is a power and right now! Its a typical balkan mentality.
I think that its very good that yugo have braked but it brokeup the wrong way.
pre 15 godina
What a coincidence. Only a couple of days after I post how Croatia is hiding Operation Storm documents from the ICTY and is thus hardly to be trusted in criminal matters, I find this on B92:
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=02&dd=05&nav_id=56931
Brammertz still chasing Storm documents
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