"Status talks after Serbia joins EU"

Ivanovic must be either naiv or stupid if he perpetuates that the EU will approve Serbia's joining in that situation. Just look over to the Croatia-Slovenia conflict or the stupid name dispute concerning Macedonia. The EU sees now but a taste when it resumes that way. That is why many EU-politicians said clearly that the Western Balkan will join together and not in slices, means that the major disputes must be settled, one or another way. If not, no EU entry for all. This is a mere fact which is based on experience. Ivanovic better start dealing with that now, otherwise he should plan the speech why Serbia haven't been approved to join the EU.

Well, after all that's a rational approach, Ivanovic is known for his pragmatism. Notice him saying "the fact that 54 countries has recognised independence will have to be taken in consideration... (unlike other Serb high politicians; Kostunica would have lynched him on this)" and bear in mind that, by the time Serbia is ready for EU that number will for sure be other than 54 (don't want to speculate), the EU will be different and Kosova also will be very different from what's now now.

But still I see it difficult for EU to agree for Serbia to enter with undefined borders, unless they arrange it for both Kosova and Serbia to join at the same time.

Anyway, this approach seems at least to show a possible direction. Waiting for EU to correct slightly and slightly the direction, until it matches.

"The conclusion is that Kosovo will not be set as a condition for Euro-integrations."

Of course it will but for obvious reason your are NOT told yet. Do you think Serbia will be allowed to enter in EU and block other countries aspiration? That would be very naive to think! The same will apply for all Balkan countries. So don't fool yourself with these infantile comments.

A prime example of how the politicians twist facts to try to manipulate the people.
Security Council never adopted 6 point plan, there was never any type of vote.
During discussion of Bans report only Serbia and Russia made reference to the 6 point plan and the Presidential statement welcoming EULEX made 0 reference to 6 point plan.
http://www.un.org/webcast/2008.html
follow the link and watch the webcast for November 26th.
No one says that Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo prior to entering the EU but most say that they must resolve the status issue. which at this time could only happen through recognition.

>> "The six-points conclusion was adopted by the Security Council and these points are not a subject of discussion. There can only be talks on the implementation. The document's name can change, but not its essence,"

I ask all Serbs to read what he said about the 6 points and judge this guy. Does he know what he is talking about? Did US /UK /France really care about the 6 points or just said we'll ignore them anyway so whatever you say?

What does it take for Serbs to finally realize and see what €U is and what it stands for?

How many times can a man let his head be banged into a concrete wall until he understands that this is not good for him?

€U hates Serbia, simple as that, it´s unity, ancient culture and orthodox beliefs, history, churches and monasteries. That´s why they destroied it and imposed a puppet government and a false collective sense of shame. Shame for being what they are, a proud and free people.

"But still I see it difficult for EU to agree for Serbia to enter with undefined borders, unless they arrange it for both Kosova and Serbia to join at the same time."

You're right genc, but I still see problems with this.

One scenario is that the EU lumps the two together so one entity does not join before the other. People can think whatver they like about what Kosovo's official status is, but the entire territory gets in.

The other scenario is that if Serbia joins the EU, it's going to want to join with Kosovo and, we can't deny this, officials in BG are going to want it officially stated that Serbia is joining with "its southern province of Kosovo". Now, we also know that Thaci et al are going to want to join as a separate country, but Cyprus, Spain, Slovakia, Greece and Romania will block it.

So we've got a potential stalemate on the horizon - especially if Serbia joins the EU before Kosovo does and then acts as the biggest obstacle to Kosovo's ascension.

Obviously Ivanovic wants Serbia to join with Kosovo as part of Serbia and then discuss status. In my opinion, I don't see Kosovo joining the EU without being part of Serbia in some form. Unless something completely unforeseen happens in the next few years, Kosovo is going to remain in this ambiguous status limbo it's in, and getting into the EU separate from Serbia can only be realized if its status is officially classified as protectorate, not country.

Of course if some EU official comes out and officially declares his/her country will not support Serbia's EU entry unless is goes in without Kosovo (doesn't have to recognize, but it just goes in with Vojvodina and Central Serbia), we've got gridlock all around.

I think the countries of the Western Balkans can be placed in two groups.

One group is made up of Croatia, Macedonia and Montenegro. These states are moving fast towards the EU.

Another group is made up of Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo. These states are moving very slowly on the path to the EU.

The important thing is that all the countries of the Western Balkans have a European perspective.

Status of what now...?

>> "In my opinion, I don't see Kosovo joining the EU without being part of Serbia in some form. Unless something completely unforeseen happens in the next few years, Kosovo is going to remain in this ambiguous status limbo it's in, and getting into the EU separate from Serbia can only be realized if its status is officially classified as protectorate, not country."

Funny ho you have been using the word 'protectorate' a lot lately, especially when EULEX got it. 85+% of EU countries see it differently, they recognize Kosova as a STATE and many have embassies there.

1. Why would France, UK, Germany, Italy etc etc back down and downgrade the relationship?

2. And most importantly: why would the Albanians accept it? Remember EU wants peace and stability, taking away what they gave is not good for that--and it's perfectly normal.

3. Why would EU admit Albanians against their will if they don't want to be admitted as part of Serbia, tell me??? They can't and they wont. It has already been decided: Serbia can get in only if it tells Russia to unblock the UN veto and signs not to block another Balkan countries. If Serbia wants to wait, let them; EU is in no rush.

Once Spain etc are convinced, EU can allow Kosova as a country, no UN vote is needed since EU is a private club and can make their own rules.

All Albanians have to do is follow EU directives and say "multi-ethnic" and will be fine. Remember, 22 EU nations recognize Kosova and of the five that don't 3 accept the passports of Kosova. It's easier to convince the other 2 than to convince 25

Dardania please. I'm calling it a protectorate, because that's what it is, and that's what it was ultimately designed to be. EULEX runs the show, and EULEX is an organizational branch of the EU. Calling Kosovo a "state" is a misnomer because Kosovo cannot stand up on its own. It can't even claim total sovereign legitimacy over the lands it claims to control. Kosovo meets none of the basic requirements to consider it a state, and no amount of gratuitous capitalization or punctuation marks on your part is going to change that.

You ask why would the states that have recognized Kosovo downgrade its recognition to protectorate - because at this point, I see no way Kosovo can enter the EU as a legitimate state. You also ask why these states would go against the will of the Albanians in Kosovo - again, the will of the Albanians wasn't really at the top of the list when EULEX compromised its establishment with Belgrade. I can't see any EU state standing up for Kosovo if push came to shove. You also seem to assume that Serbia can only get into the EU if it gets Russia to unblock a UN resolution recognizing Kosovo as a state (I have no idea where your train of logic on that one is), and you also seem to believe the Spain will somehow magically change its opinion on Kosovo even though there has been no indication it would - and even if it does still leaves Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia, and Romania to deal with.

Stalemate all around. Try as hard as some want, Kosovo just isn't going to be recognized as a legitimate "state" anytime soon no matter how many embassies are there. A protectorate with multiple powers influencing (some might say interfering) with internal politics is what it is. I have nothing personal to gain from Kosovo's malaise, but at some point people are going to have to stop calling this entity a sovereign state and recognize the hard realities that exist.

this is the friendliest piece of news i read in a long time. indian ambassador beautifully supporting us in our kosovo and inviting our companies to go and make money in india. god bless

Fas: €U hates Serbia, simple as that!

Fas, you must be living on another planet!
It is the likes of you who hate the EU and all it stands for – reconciliation, openness, lack of spheres of influence, etc. Indeed having a history of being an ally (albeit of convenience) of the West in the World Wars, the Serbs had such a huge capital of sympathy in countries like France and Britain that Milosevic had to work real hard to squander it! As for the Germans, they did not hate the Serbs either, indeed they had a strong feeling of remorse for the atrocities committed by their ancestors. Similar feeling assured their reconciliation with the Poles and the Czechs, abandoning the claims of millions of displaced Germans.
It is the disastrous policy of the Serbian governments that delayed the Serbian adhesion to the EU.

When I had a look at some on-line photos of Kosovars rejoicing at Kosovo's proclamation of independence I noticed some photos of Kosovars holding American flags and even a Kosovar or Albanian kid wearing a I Love U.S.A. cap. That got me wondering if it means that United States was ultimately at the forefront for Kosovo's declaration of independence? Additionally when I viewed on t.v. an Albanian music video showing a 1970s American car I wondered if this is a form of a tribute to America and finally might some Albanian children or kids who have Albanian background be fascinated with toy American vehicles?

Mike,

in such a case you (-5) call it "protectorate", I (+22) call it "sui generis case", we agree on this semantic equation and push things forward (i.e. both in and no one can veto anything). Labels aren't things they represent, or Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

smile, wrong posting.

But first, this official added, "Serbia must join the EU"

No no no, first Serbia and Kosovo will join the EU so that Serbia does not veto Kosovo's entry.

I am sure someone will comment and say that four or five EU nations do not recognize Kosovo, well if Serbia recognizes Kosovo those countries are in no position to contradict.

Dardania (post #16)

You are wrong. It is the K-Serbs and not Pristina that runs north Kosovo. And the K-Serbs follow Belgrade's lead closely.

The reality is that Eulex is there to keep the peace and prevent the Albanians from attempting a takeover as this would reveal the Kosovo multiethnic paradise that the West is desperately seeking to portray to the world as a farce.

Okay, technically Pristina did invite Eulex but then do not forget that Eulex also sought UNSC and Belgrade's agreement.

Anyway if it makes you happy to interpret Pristina's invitation to Eulex as tantamount to K-Albanians exercising sovereignty over the north, then by all means enjoy your fantasy.

>> "Calling Kosovo a "state" is a misnomer because Kosovo cannot stand up on its own. It can't even claim total sovereign legitimacy over the lands it claims to control. Kosovo meets none of the basic requirements to consider it a state, and no amount of gratuitous capitalization or punctuation marks on your part is going to change that."


Does Serbia control all the territory it claims? NOPE. Kosova actually controls the North as well now--through EULEX. EULEX was technically invited by KOsova as part of the supervised independence Albanians agreed to. Most new states were 'under protection of the world powers' for decades, see Greece or even Albania for example. A new state cannot defend against a more established, much larger one. Kosova now even has it's own army--albeit small and helped by others.

EU countries are standing in for Kosova and that is what it's upsetting Serbia. The deal was made long ago: stay in FYROM and Serbia and Kosova gets its independence. The world realized that in 1912 they had made a huge mistake and now the cat was out of the bag.

Revocation of independence can only be done by force.

Which Serbian police is going to volunteer to serve in Kosova?

What does EU gain by it? Having a failed state in Europe benefits no one either.

>> "The six-points conclusion was adopted by the Security Council and these points are not a subject of discussion. There can only be talks on the implementation. The document's name can change, but not its essence,"

I ask all Serbs to read what he said about the 6 points and judge this guy. Does he know what he is talking about? Did US /UK /France really care about the 6 points or just said we'll ignore them anyway so whatever you say?

Ivanovic must be either naiv or stupid if he perpetuates that the EU will approve Serbia's joining in that situation. Just look over to the Croatia-Slovenia conflict or the stupid name dispute concerning Macedonia. The EU sees now but a taste when it resumes that way. That is why many EU-politicians said clearly that the Western Balkan will join together and not in slices, means that the major disputes must be settled, one or another way. If not, no EU entry for all. This is a mere fact which is based on experience. Ivanovic better start dealing with that now, otherwise he should plan the speech why Serbia haven't been approved to join the EU.

What does it take for Serbs to finally realize and see what €U is and what it stands for?

How many times can a man let his head be banged into a concrete wall until he understands that this is not good for him?

€U hates Serbia, simple as that, it´s unity, ancient culture and orthodox beliefs, history, churches and monasteries. That´s why they destroied it and imposed a puppet government and a false collective sense of shame. Shame for being what they are, a proud and free people.

I think the countries of the Western Balkans can be placed in two groups.

One group is made up of Croatia, Macedonia and Montenegro. These states are moving fast towards the EU.

Another group is made up of Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo. These states are moving very slowly on the path to the EU.

The important thing is that all the countries of the Western Balkans have a European perspective.

Well, after all that's a rational approach, Ivanovic is known for his pragmatism. Notice him saying "the fact that 54 countries has recognised independence will have to be taken in consideration... (unlike other Serb high politicians; Kostunica would have lynched him on this)" and bear in mind that, by the time Serbia is ready for EU that number will for sure be other than 54 (don't want to speculate), the EU will be different and Kosova also will be very different from what's now now.

But still I see it difficult for EU to agree for Serbia to enter with undefined borders, unless they arrange it for both Kosova and Serbia to join at the same time.

Anyway, this approach seems at least to show a possible direction. Waiting for EU to correct slightly and slightly the direction, until it matches.

"The conclusion is that Kosovo will not be set as a condition for Euro-integrations."

Of course it will but for obvious reason your are NOT told yet. Do you think Serbia will be allowed to enter in EU and block other countries aspiration? That would be very naive to think! The same will apply for all Balkan countries. So don't fool yourself with these infantile comments.

A prime example of how the politicians twist facts to try to manipulate the people.
Security Council never adopted 6 point plan, there was never any type of vote.
During discussion of Bans report only Serbia and Russia made reference to the 6 point plan and the Presidential statement welcoming EULEX made 0 reference to 6 point plan.
http://www.un.org/webcast/2008.html
follow the link and watch the webcast for November 26th.
No one says that Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo prior to entering the EU but most say that they must resolve the status issue. which at this time could only happen through recognition.

Status of what now...?

>> "In my opinion, I don't see Kosovo joining the EU without being part of Serbia in some form. Unless something completely unforeseen happens in the next few years, Kosovo is going to remain in this ambiguous status limbo it's in, and getting into the EU separate from Serbia can only be realized if its status is officially classified as protectorate, not country."

Funny ho you have been using the word 'protectorate' a lot lately, especially when EULEX got it. 85+% of EU countries see it differently, they recognize Kosova as a STATE and many have embassies there.

1. Why would France, UK, Germany, Italy etc etc back down and downgrade the relationship?

2. And most importantly: why would the Albanians accept it? Remember EU wants peace and stability, taking away what they gave is not good for that--and it's perfectly normal.

3. Why would EU admit Albanians against their will if they don't want to be admitted as part of Serbia, tell me??? They can't and they wont. It has already been decided: Serbia can get in only if it tells Russia to unblock the UN veto and signs not to block another Balkan countries. If Serbia wants to wait, let them; EU is in no rush.

Once Spain etc are convinced, EU can allow Kosova as a country, no UN vote is needed since EU is a private club and can make their own rules.

All Albanians have to do is follow EU directives and say "multi-ethnic" and will be fine. Remember, 22 EU nations recognize Kosova and of the five that don't 3 accept the passports of Kosova. It's easier to convince the other 2 than to convince 25

But first, this official added, "Serbia must join the EU"

No no no, first Serbia and Kosovo will join the EU so that Serbia does not veto Kosovo's entry.

I am sure someone will comment and say that four or five EU nations do not recognize Kosovo, well if Serbia recognizes Kosovo those countries are in no position to contradict.

"But still I see it difficult for EU to agree for Serbia to enter with undefined borders, unless they arrange it for both Kosova and Serbia to join at the same time."

You're right genc, but I still see problems with this.

One scenario is that the EU lumps the two together so one entity does not join before the other. People can think whatver they like about what Kosovo's official status is, but the entire territory gets in.

The other scenario is that if Serbia joins the EU, it's going to want to join with Kosovo and, we can't deny this, officials in BG are going to want it officially stated that Serbia is joining with "its southern province of Kosovo". Now, we also know that Thaci et al are going to want to join as a separate country, but Cyprus, Spain, Slovakia, Greece and Romania will block it.

So we've got a potential stalemate on the horizon - especially if Serbia joins the EU before Kosovo does and then acts as the biggest obstacle to Kosovo's ascension.

Obviously Ivanovic wants Serbia to join with Kosovo as part of Serbia and then discuss status. In my opinion, I don't see Kosovo joining the EU without being part of Serbia in some form. Unless something completely unforeseen happens in the next few years, Kosovo is going to remain in this ambiguous status limbo it's in, and getting into the EU separate from Serbia can only be realized if its status is officially classified as protectorate, not country.

Of course if some EU official comes out and officially declares his/her country will not support Serbia's EU entry unless is goes in without Kosovo (doesn't have to recognize, but it just goes in with Vojvodina and Central Serbia), we've got gridlock all around.

Dardania please. I'm calling it a protectorate, because that's what it is, and that's what it was ultimately designed to be. EULEX runs the show, and EULEX is an organizational branch of the EU. Calling Kosovo a "state" is a misnomer because Kosovo cannot stand up on its own. It can't even claim total sovereign legitimacy over the lands it claims to control. Kosovo meets none of the basic requirements to consider it a state, and no amount of gratuitous capitalization or punctuation marks on your part is going to change that.

You ask why would the states that have recognized Kosovo downgrade its recognition to protectorate - because at this point, I see no way Kosovo can enter the EU as a legitimate state. You also ask why these states would go against the will of the Albanians in Kosovo - again, the will of the Albanians wasn't really at the top of the list when EULEX compromised its establishment with Belgrade. I can't see any EU state standing up for Kosovo if push came to shove. You also seem to assume that Serbia can only get into the EU if it gets Russia to unblock a UN resolution recognizing Kosovo as a state (I have no idea where your train of logic on that one is), and you also seem to believe the Spain will somehow magically change its opinion on Kosovo even though there has been no indication it would - and even if it does still leaves Greece, Cyprus, Slovakia, and Romania to deal with.

Stalemate all around. Try as hard as some want, Kosovo just isn't going to be recognized as a legitimate "state" anytime soon no matter how many embassies are there. A protectorate with multiple powers influencing (some might say interfering) with internal politics is what it is. I have nothing personal to gain from Kosovo's malaise, but at some point people are going to have to stop calling this entity a sovereign state and recognize the hard realities that exist.

>> "Calling Kosovo a "state" is a misnomer because Kosovo cannot stand up on its own. It can't even claim total sovereign legitimacy over the lands it claims to control. Kosovo meets none of the basic requirements to consider it a state, and no amount of gratuitous capitalization or punctuation marks on your part is going to change that."


Does Serbia control all the territory it claims? NOPE. Kosova actually controls the North as well now--through EULEX. EULEX was technically invited by KOsova as part of the supervised independence Albanians agreed to. Most new states were 'under protection of the world powers' for decades, see Greece or even Albania for example. A new state cannot defend against a more established, much larger one. Kosova now even has it's own army--albeit small and helped by others.

EU countries are standing in for Kosova and that is what it's upsetting Serbia. The deal was made long ago: stay in FYROM and Serbia and Kosova gets its independence. The world realized that in 1912 they had made a huge mistake and now the cat was out of the bag.

Revocation of independence can only be done by force.

Which Serbian police is going to volunteer to serve in Kosova?

What does EU gain by it? Having a failed state in Europe benefits no one either.

Fas: €U hates Serbia, simple as that!

Fas, you must be living on another planet!
It is the likes of you who hate the EU and all it stands for – reconciliation, openness, lack of spheres of influence, etc. Indeed having a history of being an ally (albeit of convenience) of the West in the World Wars, the Serbs had such a huge capital of sympathy in countries like France and Britain that Milosevic had to work real hard to squander it! As for the Germans, they did not hate the Serbs either, indeed they had a strong feeling of remorse for the atrocities committed by their ancestors. Similar feeling assured their reconciliation with the Poles and the Czechs, abandoning the claims of millions of displaced Germans.
It is the disastrous policy of the Serbian governments that delayed the Serbian adhesion to the EU.

Dardania (post #16)

You are wrong. It is the K-Serbs and not Pristina that runs north Kosovo. And the K-Serbs follow Belgrade's lead closely.

The reality is that Eulex is there to keep the peace and prevent the Albanians from attempting a takeover as this would reveal the Kosovo multiethnic paradise that the West is desperately seeking to portray to the world as a farce.

Okay, technically Pristina did invite Eulex but then do not forget that Eulex also sought UNSC and Belgrade's agreement.

Anyway if it makes you happy to interpret Pristina's invitation to Eulex as tantamount to K-Albanians exercising sovereignty over the north, then by all means enjoy your fantasy.

this is the friendliest piece of news i read in a long time. indian ambassador beautifully supporting us in our kosovo and inviting our companies to go and make money in india. god bless

When I had a look at some on-line photos of Kosovars rejoicing at Kosovo's proclamation of independence I noticed some photos of Kosovars holding American flags and even a Kosovar or Albanian kid wearing a I Love U.S.A. cap. That got me wondering if it means that United States was ultimately at the forefront for Kosovo's declaration of independence? Additionally when I viewed on t.v. an Albanian music video showing a 1970s American car I wondered if this is a form of a tribute to America and finally might some Albanian children or kids who have Albanian background be fascinated with toy American vehicles?

Mike,

in such a case you (-5) call it "protectorate", I (+22) call it "sui generis case", we agree on this semantic equation and push things forward (i.e. both in and no one can veto anything). Labels aren't things they represent, or Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

smile, wrong posting.