Vojvodina Statute comes in for heated debate

these Hungarians must be kidding and if the Serbs fall for this then they deserve to separate and leave serbia even though the Serbs are well over 70% of the population of the province, which is 1,700,000 are serbs and about 250,000 are hungarians. and the Hungarians are dropping in population where they used to be a majority so pretty much this is Serbs against Serbs just like in history.
(gajo, 16 January 2009 16:03)

How did you get to be such a majority in Vojvodina?
It seems that Serbs also know how to have high birth rates.
Or perhaps you crossed the border with Vojvodina during Milosevic times as illegal immigrants!

Serbia should never again make the same mistake by granting any of its regions autonomy. We've seen from recent history how that ultimately leads to separation.

This is beginning to sound like Marshal Titos Blue Prints to Kosovo, and we all know how that turned out 30 years later!

"How did you get to be such a majority in Vojvodina?
It seems that Serbs also know how to have high birth rates.
Or perhaps you crossed the border with Vojvodina during Milosevic times as illegal immigrants!
(miri, 16 January 2009 16:29)"

Miri,

The answer in two words: ethnic cleansing (from Krajina and Kosovo). You know your own answer so well because in the case of Albanians in Kosovo they actually did, do, and will apply.

Autonomy is not what leads to separation of territories. Unaddressed grievances, on the other hand, have this potential. Kosovo didn't break away because it had autonomy at some point. There are plenty of examples of autonomous regions that are happy to stay in their countries, and plenty of examples of separatism where autonomy is absent.

As people above pointed out, Vojvodina is comfortably Serbian in its majority. It's not 'those Hungarians' asking for some devolution, it's the Serbs and everyone else living there. Vojvodina will never break away, unless Belgrade runs it even more like a colony than it has done so up until now. Plus, the proposed statute is really quite tame. They wouldn't even have the power to raise taxes without Belgrade's concern. So relax.

Oh, and it's completely constitutional, by the way.

On 16 January 2009 10:55, Zvonko said:

"Serbia should never again make the same mistake by granting any of its regions autonomy. We've seen from recent history how that ultimately leads to separation."

And separation is bad because?

Because a minority will not accept the wishes of the majority?

Or because the majority will not accept the wishes of a minority?
--

these Hungarians must be kidding and if the Serbs fall for this then they deserve to separate and leave serbia even though the Serbs are well over 70% of the population of the province, which is 1,700,000 are serbs and about 250,000 are hungarians. and the Hungarians are dropping in population where they used to be a majority so pretty much this is Serbs against Serbs just like in history.

Dear brothers ! It's natural that after all that had happened you are so worried about Voivodina. I agree you have to follow the situation and prevent any undesirable developments.

But to tell the truth I can see no more that 5% chance to happen what you are anxious about. So best if you don't start your messeges with such words as "these Hungarians" but try to develop your relations with them. Mind that like Serbs and many others they are a divided nation with 20-30% of them to live outside of their Magyarorsag.

Besides another good neighbor is always better than another bad one. A new conflict with Serbs is what your enemies are deaming of. Please beware !

Cheers !

"Vojvodina and Serbia as a whole"

And that is where the problem is. The territorial organization of Serbia is a mess. Basically we have Serbia and two autonomous provinces... how can that be? For the idea of provinces to work in Serbia then Central Serbia must also be a province otherwise it seems as if Central Serbia is the country on its own with Kosovo and Vojvodina as provinces. People will get the wrong idea of those two provinces not really being Serbian which we all know they are.

No country on earth has ever organized itself in this manner. A compromise solution to this problem is increased autonomy for districts or municipalities and no provinces whatsoever.

What Serbia does it is absolutely irrelevant. Serbian people and state can be easily demonized and territory taken away. International law and justice applies only on selective basis as it suits. Just an example: I did not see Wiesenthal or anyone else, raising any concerns what is in true sense massacre and ethnical cleansing of Palestinian people. But, for the same reason Serbia has been partitioned etc. What is more important it is to know who is behind of disintegration of Serbia and get into a dialogue?

Ethnic cleansing done by all involved was unfortunately part of Vojvodina history - but Vojvodina has no similarity to Kosovo.

Vojvodina has increasing Slavic population since 2-3 hundred years, mostly due Turkish/Albanian atrocities in southern Serbia. This is not disputed by anyone. The situation became problematic first around 1848 when the young Hungarian revolutionary government not just failed to address the needs of Slavic population but even made their situation worse. That encouraged Ban Josip Jelasic (he had Austrian/Hungarian/Serbian/Croatian ethnic background but was representing Croatian interests during his life) to rally the southern Slavic population of Vojvodina + Banat. And the situation has some controversy ever since, recently thankfully with DECREASING trend.


The population of Vojvodina like most of Carpathian Basin is extremely mixed. 99.99% of the people do not object anyone as their government if it gives them opportunity to get good education, jobs and most importantly - live their lives without being harassed by some idiot taxes/nationalist ideas/world salvation ideas/etc. In other words, be it Croatian, Serbian, Romanian, Slovakian, etc. government they don't care as long as they can live their lives as they expect to live.

At this point, no one is very happy with any local government (Serbian, Romanian, Croatian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Slovenian) - but if Albanians would have these "problems", they would be finally in 21st century. Yes, I wish, Albanians would have Serbian or Hungarian "problems"...

I asked many times Albanians to stay away from being involved in Serbian-Croatian-Hungarian-Romanian-Slovak controversy(es) because these relationships have/had their own "ups" and "downs" - absolutely without analogy to Kosovo.

Or maybe talk to fellows at "Jobbik" or "Hatvannégy Vármegye",

http://www.hvim.hu

they welcome even ahmedanijad.

Unfortunately, these are not just anti-Serb, or anti-Russian - but even more anti-NATO, anti-Semite and anti-American.

Good luck, insh-Allah, with declaring war on USA, Russia, Serbia, Israel, NATO, China. Just what they will do with so much prisoners of war after the expected victory?

----"Basically we have Serbia and two autonomous provinces... how can that be? For the idea of provinces to work in Serbia then Central Serbia must also be a province otherwise it seems as if Central Serbia is the country on its own with Kosovo and Vojvodina as provinces. People will get the wrong idea of those two provinces not really being Serbian which we all know they are." ---

As you should know, Serbia started as the Belgrade Pashaluk and that was inhabited by Serbs. Even NIS was 100% Albanian till 1878 when we were thrown out. Serbs succeeded in throwing out the Hungarians and Germans out of Vojvodina, but failed in Kosova.

for the record:
kosova did not break away from serbia because serbs gave them autonomy,its oposite,if we head more rights and not being prosecuted like we were because we were albanians today we would be living in a same country.

(miri, 16 January 2009 16:29)

Some people have to learn their is a world outside of Kosovo and Albania and should know the history of at least the region they live in.

"A compromise solution to this problem is increased autonomy for districts or municipalities and no provinces whatsoever."

Good idea, I agree 100%.

As it is always Srbs are separating from Srbs with "help" of ethnic minorities so that those can eventually take over. You do not have to go any further than Crna Gora or Montenegro
how they call it where Albanians and Croats will eventually prevail. Macedonia is another example how to loose the country. As one that was born in Vojvodina and who always loved Vojvodina as part of Srbija I am ashamed with politics of Pajtic, Canak and those alike. Kostunica and company always courted Hungarians to get "coalition" partners while ignoring Srbs. Four official languages in region where up to 75% are Srbs does not lead to separation is another canard perpetrated by the so called "leaders" in Vojvodina.

On 16 January 2009 10:55, Zvonko said:

"Serbia should never again make the same mistake by granting any of its regions autonomy. We've seen from recent history how that ultimately leads to separation."

And separation is bad because?

Because a minority will not accept the wishes of the majority?

Or because the majority will not accept the wishes of a minority?
--

these Hungarians must be kidding and if the Serbs fall for this then they deserve to separate and leave serbia even though the Serbs are well over 70% of the population of the province, which is 1,700,000 are serbs and about 250,000 are hungarians. and the Hungarians are dropping in population where they used to be a majority so pretty much this is Serbs against Serbs just like in history.
(gajo, 16 January 2009 16:03)

How did you get to be such a majority in Vojvodina?
It seems that Serbs also know how to have high birth rates.
Or perhaps you crossed the border with Vojvodina during Milosevic times as illegal immigrants!

Serbia should never again make the same mistake by granting any of its regions autonomy. We've seen from recent history how that ultimately leads to separation.

This is beginning to sound like Marshal Titos Blue Prints to Kosovo, and we all know how that turned out 30 years later!

these Hungarians must be kidding and if the Serbs fall for this then they deserve to separate and leave serbia even though the Serbs are well over 70% of the population of the province, which is 1,700,000 are serbs and about 250,000 are hungarians. and the Hungarians are dropping in population where they used to be a majority so pretty much this is Serbs against Serbs just like in history.

"How did you get to be such a majority in Vojvodina?
It seems that Serbs also know how to have high birth rates.
Or perhaps you crossed the border with Vojvodina during Milosevic times as illegal immigrants!
(miri, 16 January 2009 16:29)"

Miri,

The answer in two words: ethnic cleansing (from Krajina and Kosovo). You know your own answer so well because in the case of Albanians in Kosovo they actually did, do, and will apply.

"Vojvodina and Serbia as a whole"

And that is where the problem is. The territorial organization of Serbia is a mess. Basically we have Serbia and two autonomous provinces... how can that be? For the idea of provinces to work in Serbia then Central Serbia must also be a province otherwise it seems as if Central Serbia is the country on its own with Kosovo and Vojvodina as provinces. People will get the wrong idea of those two provinces not really being Serbian which we all know they are.

No country on earth has ever organized itself in this manner. A compromise solution to this problem is increased autonomy for districts or municipalities and no provinces whatsoever.

Dear brothers ! It's natural that after all that had happened you are so worried about Voivodina. I agree you have to follow the situation and prevent any undesirable developments.

But to tell the truth I can see no more that 5% chance to happen what you are anxious about. So best if you don't start your messeges with such words as "these Hungarians" but try to develop your relations with them. Mind that like Serbs and many others they are a divided nation with 20-30% of them to live outside of their Magyarorsag.

Besides another good neighbor is always better than another bad one. A new conflict with Serbs is what your enemies are deaming of. Please beware !

Cheers !

Autonomy is not what leads to separation of territories. Unaddressed grievances, on the other hand, have this potential. Kosovo didn't break away because it had autonomy at some point. There are plenty of examples of autonomous regions that are happy to stay in their countries, and plenty of examples of separatism where autonomy is absent.

As people above pointed out, Vojvodina is comfortably Serbian in its majority. It's not 'those Hungarians' asking for some devolution, it's the Serbs and everyone else living there. Vojvodina will never break away, unless Belgrade runs it even more like a colony than it has done so up until now. Plus, the proposed statute is really quite tame. They wouldn't even have the power to raise taxes without Belgrade's concern. So relax.

Oh, and it's completely constitutional, by the way.

What Serbia does it is absolutely irrelevant. Serbian people and state can be easily demonized and territory taken away. International law and justice applies only on selective basis as it suits. Just an example: I did not see Wiesenthal or anyone else, raising any concerns what is in true sense massacre and ethnical cleansing of Palestinian people. But, for the same reason Serbia has been partitioned etc. What is more important it is to know who is behind of disintegration of Serbia and get into a dialogue?

----"Basically we have Serbia and two autonomous provinces... how can that be? For the idea of provinces to work in Serbia then Central Serbia must also be a province otherwise it seems as if Central Serbia is the country on its own with Kosovo and Vojvodina as provinces. People will get the wrong idea of those two provinces not really being Serbian which we all know they are." ---

As you should know, Serbia started as the Belgrade Pashaluk and that was inhabited by Serbs. Even NIS was 100% Albanian till 1878 when we were thrown out. Serbs succeeded in throwing out the Hungarians and Germans out of Vojvodina, but failed in Kosova.

for the record:
kosova did not break away from serbia because serbs gave them autonomy,its oposite,if we head more rights and not being prosecuted like we were because we were albanians today we would be living in a same country.

(miri, 16 January 2009 16:29)

Some people have to learn their is a world outside of Kosovo and Albania and should know the history of at least the region they live in.

Ethnic cleansing done by all involved was unfortunately part of Vojvodina history - but Vojvodina has no similarity to Kosovo.

Vojvodina has increasing Slavic population since 2-3 hundred years, mostly due Turkish/Albanian atrocities in southern Serbia. This is not disputed by anyone. The situation became problematic first around 1848 when the young Hungarian revolutionary government not just failed to address the needs of Slavic population but even made their situation worse. That encouraged Ban Josip Jelasic (he had Austrian/Hungarian/Serbian/Croatian ethnic background but was representing Croatian interests during his life) to rally the southern Slavic population of Vojvodina + Banat. And the situation has some controversy ever since, recently thankfully with DECREASING trend.


The population of Vojvodina like most of Carpathian Basin is extremely mixed. 99.99% of the people do not object anyone as their government if it gives them opportunity to get good education, jobs and most importantly - live their lives without being harassed by some idiot taxes/nationalist ideas/world salvation ideas/etc. In other words, be it Croatian, Serbian, Romanian, Slovakian, etc. government they don't care as long as they can live their lives as they expect to live.

At this point, no one is very happy with any local government (Serbian, Romanian, Croatian, Hungarian, Slovakian, Slovenian) - but if Albanians would have these "problems", they would be finally in 21st century. Yes, I wish, Albanians would have Serbian or Hungarian "problems"...

I asked many times Albanians to stay away from being involved in Serbian-Croatian-Hungarian-Romanian-Slovak controversy(es) because these relationships have/had their own "ups" and "downs" - absolutely without analogy to Kosovo.

Or maybe talk to fellows at "Jobbik" or "Hatvannégy Vármegye",

http://www.hvim.hu

they welcome even ahmedanijad.

Unfortunately, these are not just anti-Serb, or anti-Russian - but even more anti-NATO, anti-Semite and anti-American.

Good luck, insh-Allah, with declaring war on USA, Russia, Serbia, Israel, NATO, China. Just what they will do with so much prisoners of war after the expected victory?

"A compromise solution to this problem is increased autonomy for districts or municipalities and no provinces whatsoever."

Good idea, I agree 100%.

As it is always Srbs are separating from Srbs with "help" of ethnic minorities so that those can eventually take over. You do not have to go any further than Crna Gora or Montenegro
how they call it where Albanians and Croats will eventually prevail. Macedonia is another example how to loose the country. As one that was born in Vojvodina and who always loved Vojvodina as part of Srbija I am ashamed with politics of Pajtic, Canak and those alike. Kostunica and company always courted Hungarians to get "coalition" partners while ignoring Srbs. Four official languages in region where up to 75% are Srbs does not lead to separation is another canard perpetrated by the so called "leaders" in Vojvodina.